Insight with Chris Van Vliet - BONUS: CVV Interviewed About John Cena’s Last Match, Epic Interviews, Behind The Scenes Stories

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

On this special bonus episode, Chris Van Vliet appears as a guest on “Counted Out With Mike And Tyler”. Here is the description from their podcast: Calling all the Real Ones! This week on Counted Out, we’re bringing you a massive guest host of the #1 wrestling podcast on the planet. Insight’s own Chris Van Vliet, We’re talking wrestling fandom, the beautiful chaos of Canadian culture, John Cena gearing up for his last match, and a ton of behind-the-mic stories you won’t hear anywhere else. This episode is a must-listen for every Counted Out and CVV fan.   Please support our sponsors!   PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/?ref=tibcloux FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFFSTASH: Go to https://get.stash.com/INSIGHT to see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures   SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV2025Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount   NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvvTry it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup!  TIMELINE: Go to https://timeline.com/insight to get 10% off your order of Mitopure!   VUORI: Get 20% off your first purchase! Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at https://vuori.com/cvv   ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and reach your financial goals faster: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/CVVand use the code CVV to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF   ZOCDOC: Instantly book a top-rated doctor today at https://zocdoc.com/insight   BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv   BLUECHEW: Get your first month of BlueChew for free with the code CVV at https://bluechew.com   For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris! Well, we are live, pals, and welcome to another edition of the Bill After Sealed Up Approve, counted out with Mike and Tyler. My name is Tyler. I am not just joined by Mike today. Oh, no, today we have the pleasure of being joined by the man with the number one wrestling podcast in the world. He is a fellow Canadian shout out Pickering, Ontario.

Everybody, let's raise a glass of shellace, sauce and welcome to the show. CBB, Chris Van Bleet, Mr. Van Bleet, thank you so much for joining us. Mike, Tyler, great to see you guys. Please never call me Mr. VanVeed again. Thank you for having me on. We are so excited and we appreciate you taking the time to do this today.

You are taking over the world. It is absolutely incredible to see the success that you're having. First and foremost, congratulations to everything, man. It's really incredible to see what you got going on. man, thank you. It means a lot. And I just feel like this has been a long journey, but at the same time, still getting started. Well, before we get into wrestling stuff, though, I just, I want to put something out there to the universe, okay? Now, I know that you're a big fan of a team in the NFL from Ohio, and they happen to wear orange. Yeah. But you keep saying that this team is the Cleveland Browns, and I just want to let you know that we have plenty of

a room over in the jungle in Cincinnati to welcome you on board. You're so close. The only difference is we actually score touchdowns. Neither one of us win. We don't win, but at least we score, right? You guys made it to the Super Bowl at least. We did. We did. We still don't have one. How do you become Bengals fans living in Ontario? Okay, so this is actually a great story. In 1997, I was at the Skydome. It will always be the Skydome, of course. I was watching it. They'll always be Skyed home to me. It's been Rogers Center for far more years. Never of my world.

Never of my world. And I was at a house show for the WWF. And I was in grade seven at the time. And where my seats were, I could see backstage. And I could see Brian Pilman was sitting there waiting to do a running. He was peeking by him. But they had no top over the curtain, so I could just see directly down. And I'm trying, I'm a big heart foundation guy, always happen, love Brian Pilman.

And I am trying, grade 7, Tyler is trying his hardest to get Brian Pillen's attention. And he's not budget. Not a thing. And finally, some random guy looked over and goes, call him a Cincinnati Bengal. I didn't watch football at the time. So I did it, and he did the look up and gave me the thumbs up. Ah. So about three years later, I got into football.

I'm a Cincinnati Bengals fan. Full circle moment to the story. We were fortunate enough to interview Lexus King, Brian Pilman Jr., And I got to tell him that story, which was really, really cool for me. Oh, wow. Yeah. And this is one of the, I love that story so much. It's the idea that like, if it wasn't for that one moment, all he did was thumbs up.

He didn't think anything of it. And now you're a lifelong Bengals. It changed my life. Change my life. Wow. I don't know if it's for the better or the worst. It was changed nonetheless. I actually lived in Cincinnati for about a year, actually, before moving out here.

Is that back when Toby Keith Sports Bar was? there? Because I made a pit stop when I went to Cincinnati then. This was late 2019 into 2020. Okay, so probably not there anymore then. I don't, yeah, I don't think so. At least I never went there. I was there in spirit, but my mind does not remember it. That was a rough picture for me. Mike, are you in like your children's bedroom? I am. My office. That's how you know that man has two children. This room was always my office.

And then we had my daughter. My son's room is separate, but we have my daughter. And I said, okay, I'm going to move my office to the basement when she's born. Well, that was three years ago. And I still had my desk in the corner of her bedroom. She's just kind of taken over my office. And I just share it with her now until I stopped being lazy and move the desk down. But before.

We're fans in my house. Oh, and Danny Go are on nonstop. My, we got to bring my, my son to see Danny go live in Toronto this year and it just blew his mind. That guy, that guy can go,

pardon the pun. I went to see Danny go as well. And now I talk to my daughter as Danny go all the time. Whoa, what is that? Oh, that's so cool. Right.

Speaking of childhood icons, this is a good segue to get to that. Before we get into that, I just wanted to talk about Danny. Go for you. I could probably do that. Me too. Before we get in the meat and potatoes of the show, I got it, I got to inform you that there's only two celebrities on the planet who have been gifted by us a counted out t-shirt. If you remember, you were one of them when we met you in Mississauga about two years ago. And the other is interesting.

The only reason I mentioned is because you're about our age. You grew up in the same area as us. So you probably grew up with this guy, too. the only other celebrity to have a Caldanoe t-shirt is PJ Fresh Bill from YTV's The Zone. Oh, my goodness. What a legend. Right? Oh, that's amazing.

And I never get to tell that because nobody else, if you don't live in Canada, you don't know who he is, you don't know what that was. But if you grew up here, you probably grew up watching The Zone, right? He was an early inspiration for me. Like, I always wanted to be a TV host. Yeah. Seeing him on YTV and then actually years later, a good friend of mine, Carlos Bustamante,

ended up taking that job, and he was the face of my TV for years and years. But, like, it's so funny, the people that we grew up watching, like George Strombolopoulos, and Rick Cavanelli, those were my really, like, heroes on TV.

Yeah, it was cool. We interviewed PJ Fresville, because he's done some indie shows. He's wrestled a couple matches in Toronto. I had no idea. Which is incredible. Yeah, shout out Stratosphere, the guy he worked.

He's a great guy. on the Toronto independence scene. But when we interviewed him, it was later at night, and he was just sitting back drinking straight vodka on the rocks out of the rock glass. And I was just like, this is so amazing. You were the guy with the TV on YTV, and now we're having to drink together over Zoom

doing this crazy little podcast that we do. Amazing. Wow. Fun times. And I guess that's how we can get into this. that must be a feeling that you must still get. We get that all the time because we don't do this on the level that you're doing it. We're not doing this every day with the people you're doing it with.

But we still get to feel that moment of, okay, we're nobody. We're just two guys of the podcast, but we just sat down and shot the shit with Kurt Engel. Why? How do we get to do that? We just talked to Dory Funk for an hour. I don't understand where we got here. Do you still get that feeling? Do you still get this, why, what am I doing here feeling?

Absolutely. I feel like I still definitely have that imposter syndrome too. I think the biggest thing about being a podcast interviewer, like if you have an interview show, all you're trying to do is get to yes. You're trying to book that guest, right, whoever it happens to be. So just getting to that yes, I feel like is sometimes like some of the hardest things to do. But yeah, like I had a moment last week. I actually haven't said.

I haven't said this, actually. So you guys are getting like a bit of a scoop here. Okay. On Monday, I flew to Reno, Nevada. And then I stayed in a hotel because the next morning, I did an interview at the ranch of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Wow. Flew back that night to then the next morning,

John Cena was in the studio. So, like, within that 24-hour span, It was at Stone Cold's Ranch in Nevada. And then John Cena in the studio. So to answer your question. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of times where I'm like, this is wild to me. But then I think after that moment dissipates, you've got to get to work, right?

Like you can't just sit there the whole time and be like, oh, you're Stone Cold. Oh, wow. John Cena. At the end of the day, I think I'm just fascinated by people who are at the absolute top of whatever it is they do, whether that's pro wrestling, acting, comedy, directing, music, whatever it is, that's kind of where the basis of my YouTube channel and podcast began is like, I'm fascinated by talking to people who have achieved greatness. And I'm going to try to decode that a little bit, break it down, reverse engineer it so I can learn a little bit from

that. So after you get the yes and after you get like Stone Cold's address and like gatecode, you're, you got to get to work then. right? All right. What are we going to talk about for 60 to 90-ish minutes? And that's the thing is like, you're sitting down with a human being, a human being who has accomplished a lot and, you know, one of the greatest of all time. But you got to, you know, still remember that it's a conversation. So I think that, yeah, that moment definitely happens, that pinch me moment of like, how did I get here? A kid from Pickering, Ontario, and I get to do this amazing thing. And that's a big distinction too. I get to do this, right? Yeah. I don't have to do this. I get to them. I'm so

amazingly lucky. But then it's like, let's get to work and let's have a, let's have a conversation. And then also selfishly, like, what can I take from this? Of course. It's something I really admire that you do, Chris, is I like to listen when people interview you, because, you know, I can, when you talk about Swiss Shelley, I can relate. I'm from Newmarket. You're from Pickering, right? We are pretty much the same age. We have similar tastes in music. So I enjoy like, when you reference things, I'm like, oh, man, I used to do that same thing when I was at age. Oh, I used to do that, right?

But I also really appreciate all the advice that you are so open with giving. Like, one of my favorites interviews he did was with Chris Cherico, when he interviewed you on his show. And it was literally just like sitting under a learning tree. And you were very honest. And, you know, the stuff you said, just get the yes and do what you can to make. it happen. And I really appreciate that as somebody who's trying to do this as well, to have somebody at your level be so open and honest. And this is how I got here. You get a lot of people maybe at that level. That would be very protected. Oh, I'm the top guy. I don't want people to know. And I love that

you want everybody to succeed. So that's something I really appreciate. Thank you for saying that. There's a quote I always come back to. It's clapping for others doesn't take away from your own success. And I think that that's a, you know, a massive thing to remember is like, I'm cheering everybody on. Like, if you get a great guest that I've been trying to get amazing, wow, I can't wait to watch that. Or if your video gets lots of views or whatever the case may be, like, man, I am cheering for your success. I was actually just texting Maven this morning. And I said to him, I can't wait to see you hit a million subscribers in 2026. Because there was a point in time where my channel had more subscribers that had been around a lot long

man, he was just chugging along and like adding on way more every month. And now he's surpassed my main channel. I can't wait to see him hit a million. And also like going back to the last question of like, are there moments where you can't believe this? Listen to the sentence you just said. I was being interviewed by Chris Jericho. Crazy.

That was really cool. And the Undertaker. Yeah. I can't forget that one. Come on. Those two. days were wild in Boston. Who came up with that idea to say,

hey, let's do two. You interview him and he interviews you. Whose idea was that? I can tell you it wasn't mine. Like, how do you pitch that? Yeah. I should interview you. I should interview you.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And then for whatever reason, you should interview him too. It started like this. His co-host on six feet under was Matt Lida. And he reached out to me and was like, I'm a big fan of your show. Could I send you some Undertaker six feet under stuff?

I'm like, of course, yes. So he sent me some T-shirts. I was super grateful for that. And he said, we're looking to book some new guests on the show. Would you want to do an interview? I'm like, would I? Like, you want to have me on the show? I guess.

Sure. Like, are you, all right? And he said, you know, if you come down here, I'm sure we can work it out where you also do an interview with the undertaker. I said, well, this is huge. I remember, actually, we were at my mother-in-law's house, and she was living in Dingman's Ferry, Pennsylvania at the time. We were just about to go to sleep, and I just read this message.

And I said to Rachel, I said, honey, I can't believe this. I think I'm going to interview the Undertaker. And also, I'm going to be on his podcast. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I'm not going to say no. That was such a wild thing because. flew into Austin for this and I did the interview with Undertaker on his show first, went to the studio that they were using. It's the first time I ever met Undertaker in person. And it was what a great guy, Mark is, which is crazy. He's always, my name's Mark, like he

introduced himself as Mark. And it was like we were old friends and we chatted on his show. And then he was doing a few more interviews after that. And he goes, what works out best for your show? I said, you tell me, like, should we record here at the studio? Should we do it at my hotel? Should we do it somewhere else? Like, what's most convenient for you? And he goes, yeah, why don't we do it in my house? Here, let me give you my address.

Let me take down my number here. When you get to the gate, just tell them you're here to see the Calloways and they'll let you back. And then when you get to my driveway, go to the gym. So it's the right of the drive. Like, just walk into the gym, set up, get in a workout if you want, and I'll join you there later. Okay, he's like,

hey, and take down my number just in case you get lost or something. Sure enough, we went to his house, we set up. We were probably there for like an hour, hour and a half before he got there. And then I said, how long do we have to chat?

Because we had, this is also a crazy part of the story. We had dinner reservations that night. He's like, I don't just, we can talk till you get all the stories out of me. And then we ended up talking for like almost two hours. And then we went to dinner that night with everybody else that he had brought in for interviews. It was me, Maven, Godfather, Midian, and then some other friends. Wild. And Undertaker was just holding court telling stories.

And we're like, okay, wow, a lot of stories we could never repeat in a public forum. And the funny thing is, like, we were there long after that restaurant. closed. Like, they were putting up the chairs around us and we're still drinking whiskey and drinking wine. I was just about to say, my liver hurts. Teller he just threw it. We had some amazing stakes and some incredible wine. And then eventually, we realized, kind of looked all around, all the chairs were up. And he's like, oh, right, I guess we should call it a night. Okay. But, yeah, just incredible. I love also that, like, your friendship with Midian has developed through that as well.

Because we have a very good friend of ours named Jonah. He does the Rwine Recaprilyb Podcast, Tuxedo Jonah. He's amazing. He's amazing. And I watch his clip of him interviewing you and the Godwin's crashy interview. And it's just so fun to see that stuff. So that's going to be a cool feeling for you to be like,

oh, I'm friends with Midian now. Midian stopped by our table like 10 times that Jay just to be like, hey, how you doing? You doing okay? I love you, man. I'm like, I love you too, Dennis. What a guy. This episode is brought to you by Timeline.

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Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting Zapier.com slash insight. That's ZAPIER.com slash insight. Before Elimination Chamber, we had the privilege to interview a good friend of our show, T.J. Wilson, who is a fantastic, as you've talked to many times, fantastic, fantastic man. And we were actually talking about you. And we were talking about your live show that Natty was coming to, which then Natty came from out of nowhere and crashed our interview and talked about how she was going to put you in a sharpshooter and all this fun stuff.

And we ended up getting about 10 minutes with Naddy and TJ together. Do you have any fun, unexpected moments like that that you can think about that are just like, oh, man, that was so awesome that happened, that the run-ins. there have been a few. You guys know that I did a lot of movie interviews for years and years. I still do some here and there. I had some interesting viral moments from those. Like one of the ones I'm sure you can find, as we're talking about this,

I was interviewing Liam Hemsworth and Woody Harrelson for one of the Hunger Games movies. That's right. And when you walk into one of those rooms, they'd say, say your name and the outlet you're affiliated with. So it's like, oh, yeah, Chris Van Fleet, CBS, Cleese. Cleveland. And then Liam just goes, oh, I got a brother called Chris. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, the god of thunder, you know. And you see the light bulb go off in Woody Harrelson's head. And he's like, I never put it together that you guys were brothers. And I'm like, so I'm sitting there watching this unfold as Woody Harrelson is figuring out that Liam Hemsworth and Chris Hemsworth are brothers for the first time. And was this on like, was this? this on the loop for the first Hunger Games or they had they known each other for many years by now? Years. This was the same thing. I love that so much. So that was a yeah, that was a super random, hilarious moment. And there's also times when you're doing those movie interviews where

like the schedules might be slightly staggered. So like maybe, you know, these people start at 10 o'clock, but these other people don't start till 10.30. So a lot of times, like, they'll be mid-interview, and then, like, someone's walking down the hall and they go, oh, wow, is so-and-so here? Oh, and just walk into the room and, like, crash the interview. So that has happened before. In the wrestling world, I had, I guess it was earlier this year, I had Chelsea Green and Kevin Owens on the same day. I remember seeing that, yeah. Those interviews. And they met for the first time on your show, right? No, I met Kevin for the first time on my show. Oh, I thought, my memory is one of them passing by and then they saying, hey, nice to meet you. And you said, do you guys not know each other?

No, it was Chelsea saying, do you guys not know each other? Oh, man. But like for whatever memories, like, I think it was like 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock. Like Chelsea attended and Kevin and 11. For whatever reason, it started a little bit later. Right. Kevin showed up on time, which is amazing. I love his punctuality. But yeah, he walked in and the way that the shot was set up is like, you would see the person walking in because the doors were right behind us in the two shots. So we saw him walk in. And that was the moment where I was like, oh, hello, nice to meet you.

And then he also chimed in on one of her, like, answers about, like, being Canadian and not knowing about, like, windshield washer fluid or something. And it just made her a fun moment. I think we clipped it out. and it has many millions of views now. Yeah. It's amazing. Well, you know, you said earlier

that you're really fascinated to speak with people that are at the top of their game. And obviously, you just released your interview as we record this yesterday with John Sina, as we had into his final match

this weekend, which you will be attending. But you were on a list of very, a very exclusive list and a very elite list of interviews that he did. It was not many that he did.

Does that like, take a step back and be like, man, like, I can't, I can't believe I got chosen for this opportunity, or was that something you had set up with them? How does this whole thing come together? I had been trying to get an interview with John Cena all year, and I saw him after the press conference at the first raw on Netflix here in L.A. And I chatted with him very briefly, and I texted him after. And like, if the retirement tour were starting that day, I'm like, oh, man, let's like, let's get him on the show to talk about this. And I sent him a text, and I said, would love to have you on the show to talk about it.

And he said something along the lines of like, I'm sure we'll make that happen at some point this year. And I said, I'll keep bugging you until it does. Then he said, I don't doubt that you will. So I knew that there was a possibility, at least. I planted the seed. I hadn't really followed. I think I followed up maybe at some point in the summer a few times.

But at the timing just wasn't right. And like what an insane schedule John Cena has. and then it just kind of lined up. He was in L.A. I got him on the same day he did Jimmy Kimmel. It's like he did my little podcast, and then he went to Jimmy Kimmel after, which is crazy. And then he's like, and then I got Joe Rogan tomorrow. And then he had the Tom Rinaldi interview and Bill Simmons.

And I think that's it. So, yeah, pretty crazy that I got to talk to him about that. And I think the other thing that I thought about was like he did all of the. these interviews, they were all, except for the Jimmy Kimmel one, they were all long-form interviews. To be able to get anything new, anything like any new information, I think is not an easy task. And I'm grateful to say that, like, we talked about a ton of stuff that wasn't covered in other interviews. I basically just want to go through the entire year, start to finish, these opponents, these moments, and just kind of like, do like a, like just a look back on this retirement tour.

and it was amazing that we got to be able to do that. It was a phenomenal interview as well. I was able to listen to it this morning while shoveling so much snow. Thank you for the compliment, and I'm sorry to hear about the snow. It's not even winter yet. It is here, Chris. It's up to our knees easily. It's not going to fall.

Well, I'd love to talk about some of the bigger moments from John's year then. And a moment that all three of us were live in attendance for was at the Skydome for Elimination Chamber. And that shocking heel turn, because I never thought they were going to do that. What were your initial reactions watching that live at the elimination chamber? I didn't think it was going to happen either. And people had been asking me on Ask CVV my Friday episode for months. John Cena is going to do this retirement tour. Do you think we get that heel turn?

I'm like, no, there's not enough time. there's no way they can do this. I just didn't logistically think it could happen. So I was shocked. And if we rewind this a little bit, I don't know if everybody remembers the setup here. The main event at Elimination Chamber was this segment with the Rock and Cody.

I think a lot of people forget that. It was the Sell Your Soul segment, right? And I guess now it's come out that they were trying to just, like, do something special for Elimination Chamber. And I think Rock even said, like they brought rock in because like they wanted to sell some more tickets in Toronto and I think it worked. Oh yeah.

I didn't think that this was going to happen. I think it's very important to make the distinction between the heel turn. We saw at Elimination Chamber and the heel run, which is a completely different conversation of the things that happened after that. The heel turn itself, I think is the greatest heel turn in WWE history. I think in wrestling history, it's Hogan forming the NWO. I don't even think you can argue that. But I think that in WWE history, just like no one saw it coming.

So it was wild to be there. I just remember being just complete, like, it was just a shock. I was just like, they're doing it. Wow. Like, they're going for it. And I feel, no, go ahead, go ahead. I was going to say, I just feel like this was the, this kind of felt like the storyline that John Cena wanted to have when he originally wanted to turn heel, which he told me it was

2012 and they did it. I was able to go through a double shock for this because obviously I'm watching it and I'm like you saying, oh my God, they did it. But then I looked to my left. I had brought my, at the time, six-year-old son to his very first WWE show ever to Elimination Shamor. And he's a massive John Cena fan. And he's standing up on his seat and he's watching this whole thing unfold and I look down to see his reactions. So now my shock is still in full form. Now I get to look at my six-year-old son and feel it all over again because now I'm looking at it through his eyes. And he's standing there first I see the heartbreak. Then I see the acceptance. And then he

looks at me and he says, I'm still cheering for him. I love that. I don't think we'll get a better visual than the hug to Cody and then the face, like the expression on John Cena's face going from smiling to like just instantly evil. Like that is, that's going to be one

of the iconic images I think in WWE history, but certainly one of the defining moments of this past year. That's why I love Liv Morgan doing that callback at Survivor Series. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, that was cool. Did you get any nostalgia, Chris, being back

and in the dome watching wrestling again because it's been a while since it's been there. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw my very first WWE show. It was a house show in Skydome. It was like 99 or 2000. Isn't that crazy? They were doing house shows

at Skydoll. That's insane. I've talked about this. My first show ever was a 1998 house show at the Skydome and Vince McMahon himself performed on the show. Wow. He was the special guest RAD enforcer in a Triple H versus Stonecold Steve Austin match.

Wow. And the special guest Timekeeper was Dude Love. That was a house show. I actually have... That's insane. I have this pulled up on my computer because I was about to talk about this on one of my upcoming episodes. March 3rd, 2000. That was my first WWE show live, or WWF show,

in the Skydome. the the main event was Triple H defeated Big Show the Rock and Kane for the WWE championship. Wow. That's a big one.

This is actually 2000. This was the Intercontinental and European champion, Kurt Engel defeated Chris Jericho. The Dudley's defeated Matt and Jeff the Hardy Boys. Edge defeated Big Bossman.

Man, what a. Rikishi defeated Chris Benoit. Road Dog defeated Headbanger Thras. Asher. Dean Malenko and Perry Saturn defeated too cool. Albert defeated Dilo Brown, Test defeated Midian, and Christian defeated WWF hardcore champion Crash Hawley in a non-title match. Wow, what a... It's crazy. Yeah, what a card. I think my first card ever was in 1992 at the New Market Recreational Complex. And I will never... I can't believe it, but it was main evented by Rick Flair against Randy Savage.

Wow. And looking at some of the names on the card that I can remember, it's like Carrie Von Erick, the Texas Tornado, Road Warrior Hawk, the Undertaker very early in his career. It was a very interesting, I just can't believe I got to say, I saw the macho man. That is cool for me. Right. Wow. That's awesome. I wish I could remember more about it. Like that, you know, and I was great too. But I do remember the finish of Rick Flair hits macho man with brass knuckles and does the armpit spot. And then when they lift his hand, then that's a nice. Fuckles fall out, so they made it look like there was a title change, and then there was in. That's great. That's what you say on the show, nostalgia is a powerful drug. That's it. Before we ask some questions about you yourself, Chris, I want to continue what Tyler started with this John Cena thing. There was once a time where no matter what John did, the fans did their best at boom out of the building.

You know, there was the, they're shoving them down our throat stuff. He's burying everybody. Everybody was cool to hey John Sina. Fast forward to 2025, everybody. Everybody is a John Sina fan. What is it, do you think that John did to earn everybody's respect to go from Mr. he's the most controversial champion because everybody wants to boom to where he is now, where people want to dictate how he ends his career, people want the best for him,

people want to be there. I think it's going to be one of the most emotional retirement matches in, if not the most emotional retirement match in WW history, how can we get from there to hear? How did you earn everybody's respect? It's a great question. And I think about that often where it went from, Let's go, Sina Sita socks.

It went from that, like, for years. I think it comes down to you don't know what you got until it's gone. And I think John Sina being gone and just like one appearance or two appearances a year, I think that's what really changed it. And it went from like, I mean, if you think back to early 2010s, John Sina was in the main event of like every PLE. So if John Sina wasn't the champion, he was fighting for the championship. And I just think that people just grew tired of like that same narrative.

And I think that's also John Sina hinted at that idea of like he wanted to freshen things up. That's why he wanted to turn heel at that time in 2012. So I think it was just like a little bit less of John Sinclair. Sina, followed by a lot less of John Sina, made people appreciate when those appearances did happen, 2019, 2020, 2021, all the way up till last year. It's like, oh, this is a special thing. And we've got to appreciate this. And I also think that, like, you can't deny hard work. And when it comes down to, like, the way that John Sina just, like, his mantra towards life, like, I don't think hustle, loyalty, respect and never give up or just, like, catchphrases you put.

on a t-shirt. That's who John Cena is. And that's the way he lives his life. And I just don't think you can deny that. So I think it's just been a matter of time and him being away enough for us to realize, oh my gosh, like, even before the retirement announcement, it's the idea of like, we're not going to see him that many more times. And when he comes out, it's special. So like, let's make the most of this. This episode is brought to you by Hems. Hair loss isn't just about hair. It's about how you feel when you look in the mirror. Hems helps you take back that confidence with access to simple, personalized care that fits your life. HIMS offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work, including

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We can't let you off the hook. We got a couple real ones here. We know. We know we got to ask you. I answer a lot of Mount Rushmore questions on the podcast. I love it. So let's go with one here. And I know Mike's got one probably a little bit down the road too.

But since we're talking about John Cena, since we're talking about John Cena, since we're talking about John Sina, what is your Mount Rushmore of John Sina matches from this retirement run? From this retirement run specifically? From this year of John Sina on his retirement run,

Chris Van Leads, Mount Rushmore of John Sina retirement matches. So, if you are doing this list and you don't have John Sina versus A.J. Stiles on there, you are ridiculous. That has to be. be on there. A perfect love letter to wrestling. Agreed. That match was already amazing,

but then the crowd on top of that. Oh, my gosh. Incredible. So that one, for sure. John Cena versus Cody wrote two, so it's SummerSlam. Yeah. And that match was extra sweet because that was John Singer's official baby face turn. Remember he came out, the Black Titans drawn, and then it went to colors and he ran to the ring. And it was like, man, nostalgia is a hell of a drug. And when we talk about this idea of you don't know what you've got till it's gone, I feel like this back half of John Sina's retirement run is that much better because of how his heel turn went.

And I think that we appreciate him so much more with him playing the greatest hits and like leaving it all in the ring in these last few months because of how the heel run went. So there's two. I might get some flak for this, but if we're just talking about an entertaining match with great storytelling, John Cena versus Logan Paul was such a great match. I think it's Logan Paul's best match.

Say what you want about Logan Paul personally. You cannot deny that he is an absolutely incredibly gifted athlete and a great performer in the ring. So that's three. And then it's, man, this is the thing about Mao Rushmore, right? Yeah, that's it.

Can only have four. I think the fourth one for me has to be John Sina and CM Punk. And John said on my show that CM Punk is his wrestling soulmate. And my favorite John Sina match of all time is John Sina versus C.M. Punk in Chicago, 20 or that 2011, on the bank. There's just something special about the way that they trade off with each other on the mic and in the ring. So there's my four. And also interesting, like that after John Cena's final match here, it would be 18 matches he worked this year. 36-8s, 18 matches. So like a perfect symmetry there

on promo segments slash appearances and him wrestling matches. But those are those are my four. And you mentioned during your interview with him that this is the most matches he's put in in a year that since what was it? 2018. 2018, yeah. So that's significant. And it shows, and he himself said he was willing to put in a full year.

Yeah. Like that's, that, that shows how committed he was to this run. That's very cool. But it's amazing that he, like, he leaves it all the,

he leaves it all in the ring too. And I hinted about this when we did our interview. But like, if you're last, or last June, money in the bank, saying, I'm going to do this retirement tour for a full year, every time you go out there, like, you're, it's difficult because, like, if you get injured, what happens to the rest

of the retirement tour? And I appreciate that he didn't wrestle, like, particularly safe on his part. Like, he was taking risks. He was taking chances. And anything could have gone wrong. Knock on wood, thankfully it didn't. So we're talking about him, you know, coming right to the end. As we record this, we're like, what, three days away from his very, very last match. Rumor has it that Saturday's main event will be opening with Sina versus Gunther rather than closing. Now, that has not officially been announced, I don't think, but it looks like that might be happening. You don't think so? No, so I think what happened was when he was talking on Jimmy Kimmel, he said he didn't want the night to be about him.

He wanted to go out and have his match and the rest of the night before. focused on, you know, the up-and-coming talent. Somehow, some way, that got twisted into, he's just going to go out and have his match, and then after that, the rest of the night is about everybody else. I think go back, listen to the soundbite, listen to the full interview for the entire context. I think that you will see that somebody was fishing for a headline there. Once that one headline got made, everybody else just copied and pasted.

it. But that is, those are certainly not his words. You think John Cena in his final match? Well, this is the show. Just a curtain jerker of a match.

Yeah. See, and this is what, this is what was going to be the question, because honestly, I would have believed this because if you told me

that John said, hey, I just want, I want to show that I'm leaving it to the future. If you told me that that's what he said, I'd believe you. That sounds like something

that he would do. It really does. However, then I put myself in the place of somebody like Triple H or Nick Con or anybody at TKO and I say, is this what's best for business? Do I put my main event on first? And then, you know, especially if such an emotionally charged match where people are going to be spent afterwards, are they going to continue to watch? Listen, I want to see AJ and Dragon Lee take on Leon and Jvon as much as anybody else. but I don't know if I'll have the energy for it after a Cina's last match. So from a business standpoint, I truly open, you're correct because I don't think this is the way to go.

No. I think that it's going to be these great matches leading up to it. I think there's going to be a lot of vignettes and throwbacks to like John Cena's greatest moments over the years. I think we're going to go to a commercial break and we're going to come back with a tissue box next to us because I think it's going to be. be really emotional. Absolutely. WWE has always said, like, we tell stories, like we make movies. And I think that they're going to do an amazing job.

I'm not sure how this story is going to be told, but, man, I'm excited to see how this goes. Because I want to pivot for a bit here, because I could talk to you about John Cena all day. But we've seen you step inside the ring a few times over the years. we've seen you give a beautiful rock bottom. We've seen you get the hell chopped out of you. We've seen gangrail dump you on your head. That's my fault.

Yep. Is there any chance or any interest, or even has anybody ever reached out to you about having a match yourself? I've had people reach out about me having a match. I just don't think that I have the bandwidth right now to make that happen. I have two very young kids.

Right. My daughter, Logan's two, a half. My son Cooper will turn one in a week from today, December 17th. I don't think that I have the time or the bandwidth to say to my kids and my wife, like on top of all of the travel and all of the other things that I'm doing, I'm also going to try to learn to be a pro wrestler, which is not just, I just don't think if I'm going to do it, I've always been the type of person that I dive all the way in. And I'm going to commit myself to it. Learning to be a pro wrestler. and honing that craft is not something you just like put half of your effort into. So it's something

that I would want to be fully committed to. And I do not have the ability to do that at the stage of my life. I've had some people that if I said their name, you would definitely know who they are. They've asked if I would ever want to have a match. And I've politely said like, not right now. Maybe maybe down the line. Also, I think I'd be so hypercritical of like, I've been watching wrestling my whole life. You guys have as well. I feel like I'd be going in there going, oh, oh, that didn't look good. Oh, what was I thinking there? Oh, my gosh. But in the same time, like, I think that perfect is the enemy of good. And like, I think if you're going to do it, you just got to do it. And I have a great respect for people like Paul Walter Houser, Emmy winning,

Golden Globe winning actor who does not need to be wrestling, but loves it so much that he's in there. I think he's had 23 matches. I have an incredible amount of respect for David Arquette, who basically wanted to make up for that WCW run and went after it and, man, did it. So I have a great amount of respect for them. I just don't think that it's for me. But I will say, maybe there's another rock bottom or two or three up my sleeve. I always every time I just want to do it and try to get the spring up. That's right. Speaking of you to being a lifelong wrestling fan just like us,

there's something, and this goes back about two minutes watching you talk about how you feel about John T's last match. I was looking at your face. You still have this aura about you. You're still a fan. You're not just some guy who gets to talk to wrestlers. You're still, you're still in. love with this thing, just like we are. And we live in a really full time. People can complain,

say that they don't like wrestling, you know, in 2025. I think they're all full of crap. I think we're in one of the best areas of professional wrestling because there's so much. Wrestling, we have more content than we ever did before. If you don't like something, there's something else. We've never had so much at our fingertips before. The problem with that for people like Tyler and I is there's only so many hours in a week. And we got to put a show out every Thursday. We don't have time to watch 80 hours of wrestling. How do you balance everything and still be able to watch the weekly product without it being your job?

How do you still watch it and be like, God, I love this instead of saying I'm doing this for, because I need to do this for work. Man, how lucky am I that I get to do this? Right. I would be watching wrestling no matter what. Whether I had this podcast, this YouTube channel or not, I'd still be watching wrestling. I've always been a fan.

So I think it just comes down to that. And I think the cherry on top is that I get to do this as well. And I agree with you that I think that now is the best time to be a wrestling fan. And I think subsequently because of that, now is also the best time if you want to be a wrestler because there's so many options. And I know that it's the cool thing to, get online and complain about the things you don't like. But instead of complaining about the things you don't like,

why not focus on the things that you do? And I don't just mean, like if you don't like what's going on in WW, there's plenty of other options. If you don't like what's going on in AEW, you can watch something else. I just can't imagine if me and you guys, we all went to a buffet. And, you know, Mike, you got the prime rib and Tyler,

you got the chicken strips, and I got the macaroni and cheese. We're at Golden Corral in this example. There's chocolate wonderful, which I love. I can't imagine sitting there eating our meal and just complaining about the things we don't like. Yeah. Wouldn't you just be focused on like the things you do? Like maybe they had crab legs on there and you don't like crab legs.

Would you be sitting there eating your delicious prime rib going, that's crab legs? I just can't believe it. Why would they have that? Why would they have the crab legs here? Such a great analogy. Yeah. And I understand that, like, criticism is good.

We should not pretend that everything is all amazing and rainbows and roses. But I think that to just focus on the negative stuff, I just don't think that serves anybody. Like, wrestling is a beautiful buffet. If you like tag team matches or singles matches or hardcore matches or death matches or multi-man matches or women's wrestling or men's wrestling, it's, all available within the span of a week. So if there's things you don't like, cool. I would just much rather focus on the things that I do like.

And maybe that's a problem that I have, that I would rather focus on the things I like than the things I don't. But I will never complain about watching wrestling. And I go to a person too. And that is the number one reason why you are the number one podcast. wrestling podcast in the world because people can relate to that at the end of the day. Every other podcaster in the world just wants to bitch and complain and you have your,

you know, Vince Rousseau's complaining about everything and your Jim Cornets and your bitter bread of hearts. Everybody complains and complains and complains. Then you have CVV. This is why I listened to your show. When I wanted the podcast in the first place, when I started podcasting several years ago, even before this show, I had two inspirations. Two men made me want to do this. You were one. one of them because of your positive attitude because you never, every time I listened to you, you gave

off this positivity. And the other one was a film director Kevin Smith because he did the same sort of thing. There was no, he wasn't a bitchy, whiny old man. He was fun. And he put out this positivity. And his exact words were, and I lived this this day, somebody

asked him, what do I do if I want to be a podcaster? What if I want to start my own? And his exact advice was do it. Yeah. That's it. Your first step is to do it. So we did it. Just start. I love that. And you can just start and here we are. And I, to be fair, I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade. I do that all the time on my show. Like I'm not saying that everything is amazing all the time. Everything is awesome. That's not the case here. Like when I talked about Survivor series,

I said like, as we were leaning up to that War Games match, I said there's not really much of a story here. Of course, we've got 10 great superstars on the men's side, 10 great superstars on the women's side. It's not much of a story here. We talked about, you know, I talked about that. We talked about the heel turn for John Cena being great, but the heel run, not being great. So I think it's just important to point out that, like,

I will call a spade a spade, but I'm not going to like try to nitpick these little things because they didn't meet the expectations that I had. And I think that's the biggest thing. We go into these going, oh, man, if John Cena's last opponent isn't Edge or Chris Jericho, then it's going to suck. It's like, it doesn't matter who John Cena's final opponent was. People were going to find a reason to not like it.

You know, if it was Randy Orton, it'd be like, well, why isn't it someone new? Why isn't it someone we've never seen him wrestling for? It's Goonther. They haven't even told a story. What? There's been a 16-man tournament over the last half. What do you mean? We're so Hendry, like everything.

You know what I get? Right. So like, I think that you can't, you cannot please everybody. But yeah. I would like to go on record though that I do enjoy bitter Brett Hart still. I love Brett Hart forever. I love Brett Hart forever. We are.

Our clock is ticking down. We're getting close to the end. Tyler, if it's okay with you, here's what we'll do. I'm going to get in my Mount Rushmore question, because I can't not with this man. And then you have our very famous, always question for every single one of our guests, which is very apropos for this particular guest,

considering he finishes everyone in his podcast is the same question. So that's very cool for us. So as the running gag on your show is the Mount Rushmore's, I had to come up with one myself. And because you grew up very similar to us in the same area, watching the same things, and just like us, we know

that you were big on the Ontario indie scene. You loved watching all the wrestlers come up in our area. I'm going to put you on the spot. Who's your Mount Rushmore of Ontario indie wrestlers? Oh, my goodness. So I had a very short window, I think.

Well, it wasn't that short, but like, I think 99 or 2000 was when I went to my first indie show. Okay, my mom was 98, so yeah. Poplips Wrestling Federation, the AWF. Shout out Ron Hutchinson. Yes. Ron Hutchinson. I remember going to the C&E several times because they had wrestling like, I think it was like 10 o'clock, 1 o'clock, and 3 o'clock. I don't remember,

but I remember Ron Hutchinson like hyping it up on the mic and then go ahead and seeing those matches. Oh my goodness. So my favorite indie match I've ever seen in person was Dangerboy Derek Wilde versus Showtime Eric Young. Yes. at I think it was still called Neo Spirit Pro Wrestling. That's right. Yeah. Pro wrestling in Niagara Falls. What a match.

And it's so funny. When you bring it up, like I brought up to Eric Young the first time, I said, I went to your indie match. It was the greatest indie match of all time. He goes, oh, yeah, the ladder match against Danger Boy?

Yeah, it's known around it. I have pictures of myself eating hot dogs with Eric Young and the Sharon Arena. So, like, he was a legend around here. Yeah. Oh, man. Who am I? I'm going to leave so many people off of this and some of them are friends and they're going to get upset.

I'll give you another. I guess let's just put both of those guys on there because that match is legendary. It is a match of great lore in Ontario indie wrestling. Yes, it is. I was there at the AWF when there was a masked female wrestler who made her debut in Cactus Peets, the little bar there where we watched the AWF. she wrestled under the name Lafellina and then a few months later

she took her mask off and it was Gail Kim love the deep guys yeah I love these deep guys I was there when Gail Kim made her debut as a masked wrestler and I mean what an incredible career that Gail Kim had

so I'm going to put Gail Kim love it I love that love that oh man I'll make it just four I'll drop lots of other names Yeah. Okay? Like there's somebody other

like Cody Deener. I knew him when he was Cody Steel. Yeah. Yeah. He's wearing these like latex red pants. He happened to live on the same dorm floor as one of my good friends, James Colantonio at Waterloo University of Waterloo. So like he's got to be on there and look at the career he's had.

Josh Alexander, the amazing stuff he did. Yeah. Ethan Page. Although I didn't, I don't think. I think I really watched a lot of Ethan Page stuff when I was still living in Ontario. I ended up becoming friends with him after I'd moved to the U.S., but Ethan Page,

very talented. I'd never sideging Christian, but obviously they had an amazing run on the Ontario Indies. So my very first indie show, the main event was Luke and Butch, the Bushwhackers versus the suicide blanche. Wow. Now, and this is,

this is February of 1998. And if you remember, I believe Edge made his WB debut in March or April of February 8, so February 98, so it's right before. However, Edge, Sexton Hardcastle, didn't show up at the show. He had a torn rotator cuff. Now, years later, I look back and I think, I bet you WWF just didn't let him do the show because they had signed him by then. Yeah, yeah. Can't take that battering, Rand, brother. Yeah.

So Christian had a new partner that night. named Martin Cain, who would later go on to be known as Andrew Test Martin. Wow. Wow. So that's cool. The Ontario indie scene is just rocking. Right.

Do you remember Flesh Gordon? Oh, yeah. That guy was just enormous. And Jack, Tony Mac would come out to, What is Love? But if I'm going to, I've named so many people here,

Sean Spears, I think will also be on my Mount Rushmore. and Ronnie's a great friend of mine. And I remember him, I remember him working his last show before going to WWB the first time. And it was at Blood Sweat and Ears, BSE. Yes. Remember he was a heel.

And the crowd was, because his last name was Spears, Sean Spears, they were chanting Britney at him, which I thought was so funny. So I don't know, man. It's so hard to narrow down to four, but I guess I, in a roundabout way,

gave you 15, but also gave you 4. Well, thank you. And the Ontario independent scene is still booming strong as we speak. Shout out to everybody out there, grinding in Ontario. Great job. Let me just throw in one more, Ashley 6, who was a very good friend of mine when I was like 16, 17,

18. He was training me when I was training at Squared Circle. And Chris Chambers was also leading the class there. I think he's still wrestling, right? And he's still around. He's still around. Yeah. James Champagne.

was in the advanced ring next to me. Angelina Love was there. I need to stop. And you did some training with Fuego, too. Did you know it? Yes. Yeah, it's squared circle. Yeah, that's right.

So Chris Chambers and Ash were leading the class, and the ring over was James Champagne, Angelina Love, and some, you know, a bunch of other legendary Ontario names. But there you go. Now I've given you 19 names. There we go. Well, we'll have to have you back on to pick right off

with the Ontario independent scene because there's so much we can talk about there. I want to sneak in really quick because I know you've got to get out of here, Chris. And Tyson Dukes, okay. Tyson Dukes. Get that dance going.

The last question that we always ask, all of our guests on this show, from a professional or even a personal standpoint, Chris, when you look back at everything that you've accomplished in your career, what are some things that just make you smile to think about?

I think the first thing that makes me smile is I've got these two beautiful kids. I think that's the most important thing. I feel like everything I do now is with just family in mind, my wife, Rachel, my kids, Logan, and Cooper, they're the light of my life. And they make me smile. So I think that's personally, that's nothing tops that. Professionally, my definition of success has always been, am I excited for what I'm going to do that day? and then am I proud at the end of the day of what I've done? And I think that it's like, wake up tomorrow and try to do that again.

And I live my life like that and I will continue to. And I think that that's always been a great thing of like whether it's some of the interviews we talked about today like with Stone Cold or The Undertaker or John Cena or whomever it might be. Or it's getting to see some of these amazing moments in person. Man, how lucky am I? The gratitude question I ask at the end of every episode isn't just like some bit. It is how I live my life.

I live my life of like this practice of gratitude. And if this is a foreign concept to you, if you're listening to this, you've never tried it before, spend the next few days focusing on the things you have in your life instead of being angry about the things you don't. Because it is impossible to be both grateful and angry at the same time. Because how could you possibly be angry when you're angry? thinking about the things that you have. So yeah, I think I think that's, I think that's it for me. I love that. I love that too. Chris, this has been incredible. Thank you for bringing some insight.

That's good I did there. I bet you never heard that one before. Thank you for, thank you for joining us today on Count it Out. We want to wish you the happiest of holidays and all the continued success. We look forward to seeing what next year brings for you. and hopefully we can do this again sometime. Thanks so much, guys. And great to see you. Happy holidays to you as well. And please go have some Swiss chalet for me after this.

Absolutely. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do with rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media.

about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it, but get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What should be? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.