Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Chris Masters on a possible WWE return, addiction to painkillers, The Master Lock, NWA

Starting point is 00:00:00 This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go, go. It's nonstop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family. Expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies.

Starting point is 00:00:23 It is literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drisley or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Welcome back to another audio adventure here on Insight. I'm Chris Van Fleet.

Starting point is 00:00:50 Thank you so much for being with us. And if it's your first time here, well, I hope you stick around and maybe listen to another few episodes that we have in the library. Make sure to hit subscribe or hit follow wherever you're. you're listening because we've got some great conversations that we're cooking up, including this one with the masterpiece. This is actually the second interview that we've done, but the first one here on the podcast. The first interview was almost three years ago at a wrestling convention in Orlando. You could, of course, check that one out on my YouTube channel, which is simply called Chris Van Fleet.

Starting point is 00:01:25 What an original name for a YouTube channel. But since you're here, since you're on the podcast, snap a screen. Let us know that you're listening. Tag me on social media. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Tag Chris Masters. He is at Chris Masters 310 on Instagram and at Chris Adonis on Twitter. And we've got less than a month to go before my birthday, which is May 19th. So if you happen to be listening to this on your iPhone right now, it'd just be so great if you could take 27 seconds out of your day to leave a review on Apple Podcasts because we're getting so close. that goal of 2000 reviews. So close. Yeetert Man 16 left this review that says, the best interviewer ever. Chris is the best interviewer of all time. I love his interviews. He does such a good job interviewing his guests.

Starting point is 00:02:18 It's such a great show. Thank you, Chris, for producing this great show. Well, thank you for the great review. I super appreciate you listening to this show. in a sea of other podcasts that are out there. I appreciate you, ye turt man underscore 16, and you, who's listening to this right now, in your car or on the treadmill

Starting point is 00:02:41 or walking your dog or preparing your meal, wherever you are. I appreciate you. So thank you. And I'm going to keep reading one review on every single episode until we get to 2,000 reviews or May 19th. Man, we're just coming up real soon here.

Starting point is 00:02:55 My guest today, is a very large man and a very nice man. Please welcome the masterpiece, Chris Masters. All right, it's happening. Chris and Chris here, although only one of us is the masterpiece, and that's Chris Masters. So thank you so much for joining me.

Starting point is 00:03:20 Yeah, good to be on with you again, man. Hopefully last time I wasn't really as aware of you last time, but you had a great interview, and then I saw all the different. different people you've interviewed. It's amazing, man. You're a cool dude, so I'm glad to be on with you again, man. Dude, that was three years ago that we did that first interview. Can you believe that? No. Time flies. I can't. And in that time, you and I have traveled together to a wrestling show, traveled back from that wrestling show, and the whole time in the airport, we're like,

Starting point is 00:03:50 we've got to do this thing again. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've been looking forward to coming back on with you. And yeah, man, I think it has felt like a long time. But then again, you know, this last year of the pandemic has felt like multiple years, really, because we've all been through so much. So I guess that's part of it, right? In some ways, it's felt like multiple years. And in other ways, it feels like, I don't know, like nothing's happened to this year. So you're like, oh, yeah, I guess the last time I saw you was six months ago, which also might have felt like six years ago or six days ago. I'm not sure.

Starting point is 00:04:22 Totally. Totally. But a lot's happened since then. You're now crushing it in NWA. you're the national champion right now. So congratulations. Thanks, man. Thanks.

Starting point is 00:04:34 Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's been good to get back to work. And it's been good to work for a company like NWA, which, you know, I've been watching them over the last few years and just seeing, you know, I just, I love the whole idea of what they're doing. You know what I mean? It's kind of, it's got an old school feel to it, you know, the studio wrestling feel, feel but um you know i'm a fan of uh that wrestling you know the storytelling of that era and you know

Starting point is 00:05:02 kind of everything it represented and uh uh i just i really like what they're doing and i like what we're doing collectively in the collective mindset of nb ua it works really well for you because your character feels like an old school heel yeah yeah yeah and that's the wrestling i grew up on you know there's a lot of people i mean wrestling has certainly evolved in a lot of ways but I think there's certain things that should stay the same, you know what I mean, in terms of, you know, the selling, the storytelling, you know, and all that stuff with the business. But, you know, it's not to say I don't love some of the new style today, too. You know, these young guys are very innovative and doing things and high spots that to which we thought we'd never see. But, you know, I do like that old school feel. And, you know, I feel like even though we have an old school feel, I feel like NWA, when you watch it, you know, know, the guys still look contemporary to me. Have you always been jacked? Like, were you a jacked teenager?

Starting point is 00:06:04 Uh, no, no, actually. I was really skinny growing up. Really, I was thin as a rail, man. Like, my mom and my cousin used to joke around and call me the number one because I was just so. Yeah. But, you know, I started working out when I was like 15 years old. And once I decided I wanted to become a pro. wrestler it seemed like a logical step so um that was my uh my start into working out like i even had a

Starting point is 00:06:33 first period weight weight training class in the 10th grade that i didn't do anything in you know like i just i wasn't in that mind that mind space yet but then it was a short time after that you know i always loved wrestling i mean wrestling was always my number one love and i decided that i wanted to seriously pursue it so then working out became like you know the obvious stuff So I took that on as a hobby and started doing it obsessively. But look, man, I started working out when I was 15 as well, and I don't look like you. Well, you know, I got to thank my dad and mom for those genetics, man. I mean, honestly, that's a big part of it.

Starting point is 00:07:13 It's not to say you personally couldn't get built. I'm sure you could. I don't know exactly what you were doing. But, you know, genetics really kind of determine your, you know, your potential. You know what I mean? in terms of like, you know, what type of size or build and all that stuff you're going to have. So it helps out, you know, I was always a pretty tall guy, you know, at least, you know, reasonably tall. I mean, I'm six four now, but I was, you know, pretty tall throughout my whole growing up.

Starting point is 00:07:39 And, you know, luckily I had broad shoulders too. So that kind of helps, you know, that whole look. So were you the guy that like after six months of working out, you were already, like, putting on some serious mass? I put on, you know, like in my traps and biceps, like specifically. You know what I mean? It's like a high school workout to me. Well, they, you know, they were just the first thing that responded. I mean, maybe I was, I guess I was maybe doing a little bit too much of curls and upright

Starting point is 00:08:07 rows and stuff like that. But, you know, that was kind of the first thing. You know what I mean? They kind of responded to me. Like I always kind of had a, you know, bicep peek. So, yeah, man. But it was all just the part of, you know, I never, you know, a lot of people, People always thought I was a bodybuilder, you know, turned wrestler.

Starting point is 00:08:24 And I've already retold this a million times in a million different interviews. But it was never the case. I took a bodybuilding because of my love for pro wrestling and wanted to get into pro wrestling. Which is an interesting thing because you look at a lot of wrestlers now. And unfortunately, there's a lot of wrestlers that don't look like they've ever worked out. And, you know, maybe that works for them and their character. But it's so interesting to look at you who went, okay, I grew up watching wrestling. I know what wrestlers look like.

Starting point is 00:08:50 So the first steps for me are get in shape to look like a wrestler. It's funny you say that. You know, I was joking around the other day because I went over, you know, when I went to the end of UA tapings, there was, I got picked up at the airport. And there was somebody who got picked up with me that I hadn't met before or anything like that. I didn't know who it was. And it was this guy who comes down and he's only about, he's like five foot, 10, maybe

Starting point is 00:09:16 about a buck 50 or something like that. And the business has changed. much that I just assumed, hey, maybe this is some wrestler I haven't met or maybe this really popular indie wrestler or anything. But then I come to find out later that night that, oh, no, he's just a cameraman. So he's a photographer. So, you know, that just kind of goes into what you were saying. Yeah, the business has changed a lot and I'm not disparaging. You know, I, you know, there's always give me a place for big guys in wrestling. You know what I mean? It's nice to see guys who aren't necessarily Holkogen or something like that get opportunities,

Starting point is 00:09:52 but you still want to have guys that look like grown men. You know what I mean? So, you know, I kind of fall on both sides of that. But like growing up, I was, you know, I loved the ultimate warrior when I first started watching wrestling. But, you know, as time went on, I really kind of started appreciating not necessarily the biggest guys in wrestling, but, you know, like the Brett Harts and Shaw Michaels and Kurt Heading and the, you know, the guys who weren't necessarily. They're not small guys by any means, but they weren't like the giant. It's a professional wrestling.

Starting point is 00:10:18 When you go to a locker room now, you're probably one of the biggest guys in the locker room easily, right? Well, on indie wrestling shows. But funny enough, I did a show in Florida just about a week and a half ago. I was in Florida, actually. And I wrestled a guy who was not only taller than me, but about four feet wide. He was about 450 pounds or something like that.

Starting point is 00:10:42 So it was one of those rare occasions where, you know, somebody was much bigger than me. It's kind of fun for me, though, to have people, get to work with people like that because it's a completely different style of match, at least for me. You know, I'm not the big guy imposing my will on him

Starting point is 00:10:57 as much as he is on me. You know, you talk about growing up watching wrestling, and I love these throwbacks that you put on Instagram, like you with Stone Cold Steve Austin, you with China. Like, these are such great photos,

Starting point is 00:11:11 and you had like this long, stringy hair. Like, it's just such a great, throwback that these are the people that you admired and then you ended up working with them. Yeah. It, you know, it blows my mind, man. Like, I was the biggest fan, the biggest mark you could ever imagine, man. Like, I, like, to be, you know, when I first got called up to WWE and I was sharing the locker room with all guys I grew up watching, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:11:38 It was just so, it was intimidating. It was super intimidating, man, because, you know, I respected everybody. Like, when I was a wrestling fan, you talked about some of the, those pictures. Like, I didn't care who I meant. I wanted to meet everybody. You know what I mean? Like, like, HBK was my favorite, like, obviously. But like, I just, I respect everybody. I just looked up to them so much and what they did. And I was like, you know, I just thought the world of professional wrestling and pro wrestlers. And I had a lot of cool experiences growing up between, you know, me and my buddy used to sneak backstage at WW house shows all the time. I got to meet

Starting point is 00:12:12 everybody. That's where a lot of those pictures came from is us sneaking backstage at the Arrowhead Pond, of Anaheim out there. And, you know, we would just, we would try to be as inconspicuous as possible. We eventually smarted up and stopped wearing wrestling shirts so that they wouldn't identify us right away. And, you know, I joked with Dave Hebner about it all the time because Dave Hebner would always kind of find us and kick us out. So, you know, it was kind of funny when I eventually came to work and I was actually

Starting point is 00:12:39 employed with World Wrestling Entertainment. And then I saw Dave and, you know, I kind of reminded him of all the times. Obviously, I looked nothing like I did at that point, so he didn't necessarily like look at me and like, oh, you're that guy, but I told him, we're like, they used to kick us out all the time from, we used to try everything in our power to avoid him at all costs. How does one sneak into a WWE house show? Well, we didn't sneak in. We bought a ticket to a house show.

Starting point is 00:13:06 One of my buddies found this service elevator in the Arrowhead Ponce. He found this door that led to a service elevator and the service elevator would take. take you basically right to the backstage parking lot. And so we would get out there and we would kind of, you know, at first we would go backstage. And like, I just remember I was such a fan at that point. It was so funny that I saw Brett Hart and Sean within like five feet of each other. And I was like, I was so, I couldn't believe it. I was like borderline like borderline sprinting to go meet these guys.

Starting point is 00:13:41 But also in my head I was thinking like, these guys hate each other. Like, how are they within, you know, five feet of each other or whatever? So, but then, you know, we'd be kicked out. So we would just kind of at a certain point, we would go downstairs and then we would just wait in the parking lot instead, not go backstage and just try to get them as they were leaving it. But we met like a ton of people like that, man. I think I have a picture with Vince, like, man, you saw the one with Stone Cold. I mean, we met everybody. When you first met Vince as a wrestler, he must have just looked at your physique and went,

Starting point is 00:14:14 this guy is exactly what I'm looking for. Oh, especially, I think especially at that time compared to even now. I'll say this. I know that I reminded Vince a lot of Paul Orndorff. You know, I don't know if we had talked about this already before, but sometimes I forget bringing up, but I reminded Vince a lot of Mr. Wonderful. So they really had me watching a lot of him.

Starting point is 00:14:40 And even they even had me work with Paul Orndorff, the weekend of WrestleMania 21 when it was out there in LA Paul was there obviously and they had me work out in the ring with him a couple times which was very interesting. So when you're growing up is the plan, I'm going to be a wrestler

Starting point is 00:14:56 and that's it. There's no backup plan? Yeah. I mean, it was and you know I talk to kids all the time and I tell them it's funny you bring this up because yeah, that was the plan and I was like I don't know, I had this, I just I felt like this is my passion.

Starting point is 00:15:12 this is what I'm pursuing, and I went all in. And, man, I started working because I needed to get a job to buy supplements and stuff like that. And I didn't even end up finishing high school, which fast forward to now, I'm actually, you know, throughout this pandemic, I've been working on my GED just because I figured, you know, there's a lot of things I didn't get done in my life because I fast-tracked wrestling so much. Like I wanted to get into it as young as possible, which I did. You know, I got signed at 19 and all that.

Starting point is 00:15:37 But, you know, I neglected a lot of things. So, you know, now I'm even going back and, you know, Yeah, I'm getting my GED and stuff like that just because these are valuable, valuable information to know and skills and whatnot. And, yeah, I mean, I forgot, I'm going on kind of like a rant on this. But how do we, how do we get on this? Basically saying you had no backup plan. Yeah, oh, no back. Yeah, no backup plan.

Starting point is 00:16:02 Yeah, I just went all into professional wrestling. And, you know, I tell kids all the time, like any who might be listening to this, you know, when you have a dream or something like that, that's great. and pursue it, of course. But in my case, I was too much of a rush to get there. You know what I mean? Like if I could go back, I would have just went through the process,

Starting point is 00:16:21 finished school, maybe even, you know, took a couple of college courses, essentially just enough time for me to mature so that I wasn't, you know, making, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars at the age of 20

Starting point is 00:16:34 and just completely irresponsible and not know how to handle it. You know, I just, you know, when you do something like that, I mean, it's not that you want, 100% need that stuff, but they're valuable life skills that I missed out on because I was so, such in a rush to pursue that dream. So that's kind of my advice to any young people who are trying to get in the wrestling, not that they ask for it, but I'm just saying if you're a potential

Starting point is 00:16:56 pro wrestling, you want to get into it, cool, do it and go to a school and be responsible, but just, you know, do what you got to do first, you know, finish school and all that stuff. I just can't imagine having that conversation with my parents. I can't imagine it's 16, going, you know what, I'm going to drop out of high school so I can be a pro wrestler. They'd be like Christopher, because they call me Christopher. They'd be a Christopher, same for you. This is ridiculous. You're staying in school.

Starting point is 00:17:22 How did that conversation go with your parents? You know, it was only my mom around at that point. I didn't meet my dad until much later. So I'm assuming probably if my dad was in the picture, it might have went very different because of values education very highly. But, you know, it wasn't that I'd. just decided to stop going to school, man. What it was is I started working. And I was working like, I was pretty much, I was doing the schedule where I was going

Starting point is 00:17:49 to school from 8 to 3 and then I was working from 4 p.m. to 9 p.m. So I go pretty much straight to work because I needed to make money for this stuff. You know, we didn't have a lot of money. And then I would go to the gym from 10 p.m. to 12 p.m. at night. So you can imagine my days were very full and I wasn't making time for homework. I was missing days and, you know, so school suffered. And it wasn't by me just deciding not to go. It was just I was working and, you know, the gym.

Starting point is 00:18:19 Like, it was just, I was spread very thin. Priorities. You had different priorities. What kind of job were you working at the time? Oh, my gosh, you're going to kick out of this. Like smoothie, a smoothie shop, man. I worked at my first kind of job job was at this place called Hollywood Smoothies over there in L.A. and then I ended up going to work at Jamba Juice,

Starting point is 00:18:40 which is a popular joint. Everybody knows about Jomba Juice, I think, now. They head hunted you. The other smoothie shop couldn't pay you as much as much as Jambuiz. Yeah, they signed me. They signed me up Jamba Juice, and then they promoted me to a main event. What is it?

Starting point is 00:18:57 Ship Leading position. They actually did. I got promoted within there, and then, you know, I did that, and then I eventually ended up working at a couple other jobs like YMCA as a trainer and then for MuscleMag International, which actually you would be familiar with being a Canada guy. Yeah, Muscle Mag had a store over in Venice, Venice Beach area. So that was the last job. Like job, I actually held because I got signed to pro wrestling while

Starting point is 00:19:24 I was working there and I still have yet to enter the real workforce since then. Well, you know, you have those skills. You could always go back to John Majuse if you need to. Well, you know, the sad thing is, I mean, you know, I hear, when I hear about the minimum wage and it's still the same minimum wage from when I was in the workforce, that's a little like, wow, oh my gosh, you know what I mean? Like, how are people surviving? And I mean, that's a whole other topic to get into. Nobody wants to hear about it on our show, but it's crazy. When did you first realize that you were making strides in wrestling and like you were really starting to get noticed? You know, when I came back, you know, I started training at 16 and I got injured.

Starting point is 00:20:10 I fractured my ankle. So I took a couple of years off and just focused on, you know, maturing and weight training and that stuff. And then when I came back pretty much immediately because when I came back, I came back in great shape. And I was going to UPW in California, which is run by Rick Bassman. And, you know, WWE, keep, you know, it was basically like the West Coast. developmental territory by that. That's where Sina got discovered, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:38 And, you know, the Sita thing, Sita and me go back to that previous time. I was just talking about, you know, when I started at 16, Sina started around the same time as me, maybe even the same day. And then we were training for a few months, and then I ended up injuring myself, and I had to have surgery on my ankle. And so then I had, you know, took a couple years off and then came back, and then Sina went on his way. obviously a short time after that he went to OVW and then he was on WWE and you know I was just

Starting point is 00:21:09 kind of a couple of years behind him so we're talking you're like 18 at this time when I came back yeah 18 I think yeah so I started so I took a couple years off came back at 18 started training again and got signed by the time I was about 19 so it happened real quick yeah like and you talk about missing out on like some of that formidable time when you were young but at the same time when this is happening and you're 19 years old and being offered a WWE contract, I mean, you feel like you've made it at that point. Yeah, it's the ultimate. I mean, that's, you know, when you, anybody who chooses, you know, one of the things I love it that I get, you know, obviously I would have liked to do a lot more and still would like to do a lot more in the business. But one thing

Starting point is 00:21:58 that always kind of keeps me is kind of fun to hear is when people from that I grew up, with and stuff like that are always like so complimentary over the fact that like you did exactly what you said you were going to do you know what I mean and there's there's something about that when somebody because anybody can say they're going to do anything but when you see somebody follow through and it's from a young age or something like that it's uh and especially when it's your dream you know what I mean when you follow your dream I mean that's the kind of stuff that really inspires people and it was really cool I mean you said that you weren't a bodybuilder you was kind of like a byproduct of being a pro wrestler.

Starting point is 00:22:35 When you got that size, did you feel like you had to keep that size? Only after I came out, you know, when I came back at one point and so I had to go to rehab in my first WWE run. And when I came out of rehab,

Starting point is 00:22:58 I was lighter, you know, because I was basically, everybody thought I was doing the rehab for, They just assumed because of the character it was for like steroids, but it wasn't. You know what I mean? I had a prescription pill issue, which, you know, obviously a lot of people have had in the business. But so, but then when I was in rehab, you know, I would wake up every morning and I would go on this like beautiful two-mile run. So I'd wake up every morning and I'd start with a run.

Starting point is 00:23:25 And but for someone like me, like when I do stuff like that, like I just basically I was doing that every day to keep my sanity and I wasn't stepping on a scale. And by the time I left that place, I had lost, you know, a good 15 to 20 pounds. So I came back, when I came back from that, I was much slimmer. And I felt, you know, it was, I hadn't even really thought about it. Because I was battling deeper issues, obviously, if I was in rehab. You know what I mean? So I wasn't thinking about that. But then when I came back to WWE and, you know, I heard a little bit of chatter about it.

Starting point is 00:23:57 I was like, then I felt a little pressure. I'm like, oh, you know, I got to put out, you know, I got to go up at least like trying to maybe put on 10 pounds or just eat a little more or whatever because, you know, the reaction was enough for me to kind of get, look. Yeah, I think that a lot of people just went, oh, he was on steroids before. He's now not on steroids. This is the difference. That's the, you know what?

Starting point is 00:24:22 I can't even fault him for that because, you know, if I was just a casual viewer or somebody not really kind of hearing these interviews or something like that, that's probably just what you'd assume. Like, oh, he had to rehab. It must have been for steroids. and then when you see he comes back and he's lighter, it just makes sense. And so, but that wasn't the case.

Starting point is 00:24:41 It just wasn't really, you know. I think when people, when you have the size that you had and then you fail a wellness policy test, I think people go, oh, what's obvious, what's happening here? What was it that you actually had a problem with? Which painkiller? You know, just opiates in general. And, you know, you hear a lot about this now because of Hollywood, as you know,

Starting point is 00:25:07 just interviewing the people you do and pro wrestling, obviously. Sure. And, you know, the beautiful thing is, though, when you look at the business now, that they really have done a good job of washing that part. Like, we've kind of turned the page on that, at least a bit, you know what I mean? So for me, yeah, it was opiates and muscle relaxers, you know, like I had gotten various injuries. Like, my eardrum got ruptured. and I remember I was in tremendous pain from it.

Starting point is 00:25:35 This was an OVW. And I had to eventually go into the emergency because I couldn't sleep and my ear was ringing. And then they wrote me, the doctor there wrote me a script for painkillers. And then, you know, just various instances of either injuries and you take them. And then eventually, you know, it becomes more of a dependency. You know what I mean? than even something. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:26:02 And especially when you have the accessibility. Like, so for me, I went, I had unlimited access to it. And I was making a lot of money. So it kind of like, you know, it kind of spiraled. And it became a big issue for me, you know, gradually with time. It didn't happen overnight. But it started with these little instances like I just pointed out to you, like the eardrum rupture and whatever else.

Starting point is 00:26:24 And then eventually access and then money. And, you know, I have an additional. personality when it comes to stuff like that. So it pretty much, yeah, it kind of took control of me for a good while there. But I'm lucky. I always feel lucky that I survive because, I mean, I literally, you know, some people might not believe this, but I mean, I shouldn't be here. I was taking numbers that were astronomical and I survived it. So it's really, you know, I'm lucky. Yeah, you hear stories like Kurt Angle will talk about taking like a fist full of painkillers to get out of bet is that what we're talking about oh yeah yeah I was right that's what I was thinking about because I've heard a lot

Starting point is 00:27:07 of Kurt stuff recently and I know you know I was right up there I don't know I didn't have the injuries that Kurt had let me clarify that by all means so he had much more justification for his issue but like I was kind of right up there with Kurt in terms of how much I was taking you know what I mean and it just gradually got there. And, you know, I was still functional. But, you know, it's just sad because even when I look back, and there's a lot of memories from that time frame that I don't really have, I don't really have a lot of good memories.

Starting point is 00:27:41 You know, a lot of stuff is cloudy from back in that time frame. And I don't know if that's because of my, you know, going through that battle and just not, you know, you don't have clarity. Like, you know, sometimes people will ask me about stuff in the past. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff I just won't remember. I don't know if it's because of that, but it feels like there is a lot of memories that I've been either, you know, not retained or whatever because of potentially that. How much of that is from pills and how much is from concussions? Well, yeah, that's the other thing.

Starting point is 00:28:13 I mean, you know, who knows? You know, I'm not completely sure. I mean, I've definitely been hit in the head a few times and had some pretty nasty concussions. So it's hard to say, you know what I mean? if how much or how little my brain is functional from that. Like, you know, there's a lot of guys who've had it a lot worse than I have, you know what I mean, in terms of getting hit in the head with chairs and various things. So, you know, that's why I kind of, you know, even I didn't feel right about entering that,

Starting point is 00:28:39 you know, that whole concussion suit with WW. It's like, I don't know, that just, to me, it seemed like, you know, I'm not, you know, they didn't force me to do anything. You know what I mean? Like, we kind of knew what this. is getting into it and I don't know. I just didn't feel like that was anything I wanted to be a part of. At what point did you realize, oh my God, I think I've got a problem with pills.

Starting point is 00:29:04 Was there something that pushed you over the edge? Oh. Or was it failing the test? No, it took a while because, you know, like WWE had an intervention with me. And but, you know, yeah, they did. I mean, and they, that's why, that's why I essentially have to go to rehab, you know what I mean? But I think it wasn't, it wasn't really until I got released. And then I would, I think it was, I actually remember being in Europe for some independent tour.

Starting point is 00:29:39 It was, I forgot. I think it was American rampage is what it was called. And I don't know. I just kind of had this moment where I looked in the mirror and I had thought about, you know, everything I had lost up until that point and, you know, kind of where it potentially got derailed. and I think that was kind of my moment. And this was after already going to rehab and stuff like that. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:29:59 So it goes to show you when you're an addict how like you can even go as far as you can go into rehab and all that stuff. But you really, you know, you have to really believe it yourself and know that you have a problem. And sometimes you'll go into that stuff not with that understanding. And, you know, maybe it won't work for you, which is why, you know, rehab doesn't work. I don't know what the statistic is, but they say it doesn't work for. a huge percentage of people.

Starting point is 00:30:24 And that's probably because a lot of those people going in or were either forced to or they weren't really, they didn't accept that they had a problem yet. They were still in the middle of it. You know what I mean? So sometimes you've got to lose and you've got to lose and you've got to lose some more

Starting point is 00:30:39 until you finally have that moment where you're like, oh my gosh. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, you're right. I think you have to realize that you want to get help or else you're not going to be able to get help.

Starting point is 00:30:51 Yeah, totally. Totally. So when we look at you getting signed to WWE at 19, I mean, that's the pinnacle. Things are great. And you're on a fast track. Like you're working with some of the biggest stars in the industry. You're in title matches. At what point is it, you know, is it a weekend?

Starting point is 00:31:11 Is it a month in? Is it six months in? Do you go, oh, my God. Like, I can't believe I'm in these types of storylines. You know, I'd have to. pointed out to it all kind of started because with me they were just building me like when I first got there it was uh you know it was kind of a lot of uh enhancement matches there's a lot of master of challenges it was a lot of building that finish and my first real program was it coincidentally

Starting point is 00:31:42 was against you know Sean Michaels the guy who I grown up idolizing so and it was kind of from that point that everything kind of started for me because I started working with Sean then you know when you work with somebody, you obviously take that to the house shows. And then, like, even for the rest of that year, I was working tag matches against, you know, like teaming with Hunter against Sean and Flair or Sean and Big. Me, teaming with Edge against Sean and Big Show, you know, just various different tag matches like that. And it was kind of around that time. I would be involved in some of those matches and I would just see the Natch entering the ring with his robe, you know, all, you know, just like sparkling.

Starting point is 00:32:24 and I would just be outside the ring, giving him the ring for his entrance, and then, you know, HPK were coming out, and I just, you know, you'd have those moments where the fan in you was almost kind of like got goosebumps. But, you know, but it's funny because it's like a tip or tat with the performer, because, you know, you have that moment, but then, you know, as, you know, action is getting closer, you've got to kind of snap out of it because, you know,

Starting point is 00:32:49 you want these guys respect and you want to put on a good match with them, so you kind of have to get over. that feeling so that you can really go in there and perform and do it to the best of your ability. Because if I approach the match from that headspace, I mean, you know, I would be far too gentle with both of them. So, yeah, man, that was, I think that was kind of

Starting point is 00:33:14 the moments right after started to work with him and then working the house shows, as you know, we'd work all over the world, man. You know what I mean? It was just four nights a week U.S., Europe, Australia, everything. In your debut match, you famously or infamously broke

Starting point is 00:33:33 Stevie Richards nose. At what point did you realize you had broken his nose? Oh my gosh, that was terrible. Man, I don't know what moment. I think I realized right away because it was a miscue big time. Like I was, you know, I was aiming

Starting point is 00:33:52 to come across the top of the chest and I hit him right in the face, man. and it was just awful. It was awful. I mean, it's the only time I've ever injured anybody, luckily, but it was really traumatizing. You know, Stevie was very angry and justifiably so backstage. And I think I just knew right away that I probably hurt him.

Starting point is 00:34:15 And it was just, it was a tough day all around because, I mean, I've told this story a million times, so I might get to go too deep into it unless you ended up wanting to. But I got food poisoning the day before from eating a turkey route, at the gas station in the middle of nowhere. So like, not that that has anything to do with necessarily breaking Stevie's face, but it was just a rough day because I was as sick as I've ever been that day.

Starting point is 00:34:36 Throwing up, I couldn't hold down a drop of water. I was, you know, just kind of laid out on the doctor's table all day. And then on top of it, I go out there, you know, I try to muster the energy for this big debut. And, you know, I psyched myself out and, you know, trying to do as good as possible. But then, yeah, I ended up. of nailing him right in the face with that Polish hammer, man.

Starting point is 00:34:59 And I broke his nose. I broke his the eyebone. And, yeah, it really just, it really sucked. You know, I still apologize to him, to him for it this day. And I don't know, I just, I've always kind of held it as a badge of honor of the fact that, like, I did injure Stevie that day really bad. But I made a promise to myself from that, from that point that, like, hey, you know, that was it. you can't injure nobody from this point on. You've already like, you know, that's it.

Starting point is 00:35:30 You know what I mean? So, and luckily to this day, that's been the only injury that I personally caused. Not to say somebody hasn't gotten hurt in the ring under some kind of circumstances while I was in there, but it wasn't directly related to anything I did to them. So, like, I kind of hold that as a badge of honor. And, you know, I just never want to do that to anybody again. Is the silver lining to getting food poisoning, the fact that you look extra shredded when you go out under those lights? That's one way to look at it.

Starting point is 00:36:05 But the problem with that was, is I was more deflated than anything because I had lost so much weight because I was throwing up that morning too. Like I went downstairs that breakfast just like normal. And like I took one bite of it and I was done. I couldn't eat. And then I just remember I was with Michael Bruce. We went over to the tanning salon. And somewhere, I think right before I went to tanning salon, man, I just started hurling. And so what happened was, is what you're saying might be true, but I think more so that by the time I actually gave you, I had lost 10 pounds.

Starting point is 00:36:39 And I felt like it actually kind of deplated me a little bit. Like maybe I'm the only one to notice. I don't know, but like, you know, I think I would have looked better essentially if I hadn't been like that sick all day. You know what I mean? I remember watching your debut live and going, oh, my God, that guy's massive. Like, you had, seriously, you're one of the, like, all-time body guys when you think about it. Well, that's cool. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:08 I mean, I don't know. Again, I feel like I lost 10 pounds. So, like, for me, I rather have been able to eat normally and all that and wasn't as worried about. Because I always stayed pretty lean, you know what I mean? So for me, it was more like, oh, I went from 260 to 250 in one day, and I had to debut like that. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Is there something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? BetterHelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist.

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Starting point is 00:38:46 who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. In fact, so many people have been using BetterHelp that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. So the special offer for anybody listening to Insight right now is 10% off your first month. Just go to BetterHelp.com slash insight. That's BetterHelphelp.com slash insight. Was there ever a point where you thought I'm too sick to wrestle? Did anyone ever No. You know, it's your debut. Like, that's the thing.

Starting point is 00:39:24 Like, think about it. I think you're a lifelong wrestling fan, too. I mean, just anybody who's a lot, you know, loves, breathes, eats, sleeps pro wrestling, I mean, just imagine that it's your debut and you're sick. It's just, it doesn't even come to mind. Like, you just know you have to. So I just remember it being a tough day, man. I was drinking gently.

Starting point is 00:39:46 The only thing I could keep down was a little bit of ginger tea. all day. Like I was, you know, drinking a little bit out and it would give me a little bit of relief where I'd feel a little better. But it's just, you know how pro wrestling is, man. It's just, it's not even, it's not like other things. Like, no matter what, you've got to get yourself out there and do it. So I don't think it crossed my mind. I think probably in my head, I wish they could have been an option, but like, you know, this has been built up. They had been running vignettes for weeks. And then, you know, they had circled that day. They'd even said it. You know, mean, this is the night. So you just know there's

Starting point is 00:40:21 there's no way around. That's amazing that you were able to have that kind of performance when you were feeling as sick as you were feeling. Man, when you look at your career, you had a huge push. And I'm curious to know if you were ever considered to win the title.

Starting point is 00:40:42 Yeah, I think early on, I mean, you know, I was considered for a lot of stuff. I mean, I was considered, I was supposed to win the intercontinental title, but then the intervention we talked about earlier it happened. So then it didn't happen. And I know the specific night and everything. I was supposed to win the tag titles with Carly at that WrestleMania where we worked Big Show and Kane, but then that got switched the day of because of a change of plans, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:10 which happens. That's one thing you learn about pro wrestling is you learn to never count your chickens before they hatch type of thing. It's like until something actually happens, you can't work. 100 count on it. It's just, you know, you learn that time and time again. But, you know, there was even a pre-taped shot with Vince and me where he was alluding to me being potentially the youngest W.W. champion of all time. And this was even after Randy had won it. And I know they were considering Sina and me for an angle. Like, I think probably looking back that if anything,

Starting point is 00:41:43 Sina might have shot that down. Like, I don't think Sina was too happy working with me around that time frame. But I don't know. Why would he not be happy working with you? Oh, I, you know, like, I could have good matches with, you know, I had good matches with HBK, but I don't know, Cina felt like he had to lead me, you know what I mean? That's probably because I was new and stuff like that, but, you know, he just felt like he had to lead me. And I don't know, it was just a little more difficult for us, ring chemistry wise, I guess, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:42:15 But I don't even know that for sure, you know what I mean? but because I just know I was working a lot with Sean Michaels and I was working a lot with John Sina in terms of the house shows. And like, you know, Sean was an easier match for me to have. But then again, Sean had how many years of experience, you know what I mean? And as over as John Sina was, you know, he had started in the business. You know, we had essentially started in the business from the same time together. So I think that might have kind of been, you know, although I had gotten hurt

Starting point is 00:42:44 and then he had gone the WW and all that much before me, I think, you know, that might have been part of it. You know what I mean? Like the, you know, there wasn't a guy with Sean Michael's experience in the ring type of thing. Yeah, I think one of the biggest things when people bring up your name is missed opportunity. And a lot of fans feel like there was a lot of missed opportunities with you. Do you feel like there were missed opportunities? Yeah, but I mean, it's not anybody's completely anybody's fault.

Starting point is 00:43:14 You know what I mean? Like you could blame WWE or whatever. Like some people do. but I mean, a lot of that is on me, too. You know what I mean? So there were a lot of things, would it be from both sides that, you know,

Starting point is 00:43:28 where that kind of just didn't happen. And, you know, it's unfortunate, but, you know, I can't always just live in regret over what potentially could have been or anything like that. You know, I just look back on a lot of the memories at this point in my life, and I'm very grateful to have been, you know,

Starting point is 00:43:46 in the WWW at that point. You know what I mean? Like to be a part of the ruthless aggression era and being able to work with a lot of, like we talked about before, a lot of guys that, you know, that were eventually obviously going to retire and I was able to catch them before that. Because, you know,

Starting point is 00:44:02 it'll never be like that in the game in the business, at least for me, you know, for some of these young guys coming up who are like, you know, in their early 20s, they'll come to me at shows and they'll be like, hey, you know,

Starting point is 00:44:12 I was watching you when I was like 10, you know, which trips me out because it's, you know, it's like, just I understand that. You know what I mean? It's everything that we just talked about for me coming to business.

Starting point is 00:44:23 And it kind of trips you out a little bit. But there's definitely a missed opportunity. But, you know, what are you going to do? Like I said, I mean, maybe I was in line potentially for a full full title. I don't know for sure. I know definitely for a tag title and an IC title. But unfortunately, none of that happened for various circumstances. Who were you going to beat for the IC title?

Starting point is 00:44:46 Well, I think, see, The only thing I know that, I think the title was, I forgot who was the champion, but I remember the night because it was in Las Vegas, and there was a four-way intercontinental title match. Like, somebody even watching, will probably be able to pick the night. You know, there's a Las Vegas, Monday Night Raw, and the I-Soo title was decided in a four-way. And my buddy, who just recently got me at PlayStation 5, thanks again,

Starting point is 00:45:13 Shelton Benjamin ended up winning the belt that night. And, you know, and I think from what? what I was told that was supposed to be me, but I had unfortunately gotten myself in the trouble, and so it didn't happen. But it really completely actually made sense when I looked at the situation. And, you know, it kind of, when I watched it unfold,

Starting point is 00:45:32 it kind of broke my heart to see like, oh, like that was supposed to be me in that opportunity. And, you know, I completely messed it up. And then it never came back around for you, which is the crazy thing. Like you never had another opportunity later on to win that championship. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:47 that's it. And then, well, I mean, it was probably, I'm trying to think of how much longer I was in the company. It was probably, you know, not much later. I mean, I ended up getting released and then, you know, eventually rehired again. So, yeah, it was, those were a tough few years from me, I think. I mean, when you're a lifelong wrestling fan

Starting point is 00:46:08 and you get signed at such a young age, you must be thinking, this is it. I'm going to work here forever. I'm going to retire in the WWE. And obviously, they had different plays. plans for you. Yeah, but again, I say that, you know, they had different plans, but like, it's probably a lot of it was brought on by me.

Starting point is 00:46:28 You know what I mean? Like, because, I mean, you know, they didn't force me to go out and have the issues I had and fail the test that I did and all that stuff. So, you know, it just, it was what it was. Like, I was young. And this goes back to what we were talking about, just being that young and not having the maturity and different life skills and stuff like that is kind of what led me probably to a lot of bad decisions I was making in that time frame. So, you know, I don't put it on like,

Starting point is 00:46:57 oh, it's a, the WWE had a different idea for me or anything like that. I just look at it like, man, I was young and dumb and unfortunately it caused me some opportunities. And, you know, I just have to be at peace with that and try to move on and do different things and some of the things I'm doing now. You know, I mean, you get released. Then a few years later, you get brought back. And from the outside looking in, as a fan, your return felt different. It felt subdued.

Starting point is 00:47:28 Did it feel like that for you? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I came back and, you know, I was on raw initially. But, I mean, I spent a lot of the time on superstars, essentially. So, I mean, you know, when it's a. far different when you're getting a push than when you're not getting a push. So, you know, you can feel that, obviously. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:47:53 So that's definitely, I mean, that was the difference. But that, you know, that also kind of motivated me to try to become the best in-ring worker I could become, which is what I kind of really strive for in that next one. You even had like a shorter entrance. So I was like, no, the masterpiece has this amazing entrance. And they like cut your entrance down. Yeah. Yeah, it was like an abbreviated entrance, but that was right from the very get-go.

Starting point is 00:48:19 You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, you know, I kind of felt like when I came back, I was kind of, you know, which is kind of on probation, so to speak, a little bit. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, we'll give him an opportunity, but we're not completely, you know, these made some bad decisions in the past type of thing. And, you know, we're not completely sure if we can, you know, invest in him or give him a ball type of thing.

Starting point is 00:48:41 Yeah, it's like when the girlfriend comes back after she's cheated on you, You're like, all right, I'll give you another chance, but not completely sure about this. That's what it sounds like. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. You still, like, you still do a lot or you still keep in touch a lot with Carlito. Are you guys, is that your closest friend in wrestling, would you say? I'd say so, man. Yeah, like he's pretty the only person in the business I talk to on a semi-regular basis, almost daily via text.

Starting point is 00:49:13 and I just came back from hanging out with him over in Houston, actually, for a good week. So there's not many people I could say in the wrestling business or my regular life that I would go and spend a week at their house. So, yeah, he's definitely one of my, probably my closest buddy, I'd say. So were you excited to see him back in WWA? Oh, my gosh, man. I mean, I watched his Royal Rumble entrance probably 15 times and, you know, it gave me goosebumps. And, you know, when you see a guy come back after a decade, as we all know, I mean, a wrestling comeback is not 10 years.

Starting point is 00:49:49 A wrestling comeback is usually three, four years. Like, that's a long, that's a long, well, yeah, even six months. But I'm saying, like, yeah, it's six months, a year, two years, you know, it's not 10 years. So a comeback for a guy like Carly after a 10-year absence, I mean, it would be the same thing if I came back, you know what I mean, at this point? because I've been out of the company since 2011, which I'd love to, you know, it would be exciting to come back for a Royal Rumble or something like that, I must say. But, you know, going back to Carlito, I mean, to come back after 10 years and just knowing

Starting point is 00:50:24 everything he's been through, he comes back in the best shape of his life and, you know, him just me being as close as I am to him, like, yeah, it was really cool, man. And I was just so happy to see all the positive feedback. I mean, I got a bowl of popcorn and I sat back and I was reading, I was all over Twitter that night, you know, just seeing all the different reactions. Because I knew everybody, you know, a lot of people hadn't seen Carly on a big stage in a long time. And they didn't really realize, like, just how, like, the changes he'd made. And, you know, he's like in the best condition of his life and all that stuff. So it was just funny to see everybody on Twitter kind of reacting and being like, oh, my God, and the different memes that came out.

Starting point is 00:51:07 and everybody just talking about how jacked he is and all of that. Like I just thought it was really cool. And I was like, I was happy as you can get for another person. You know what I mean? That was it. You know, it was really cool. I mean,

Starting point is 00:51:18 it's been 10 years for him. It's been 10 years for you. Has WWE been in touch with you during this last decade? No. No. I mean, I'm at the point now. I mean,

Starting point is 00:51:31 you never say never. Like, you know, I feel like they potentially could reach out again at some point. but, you know, I'm kind of at the point where I feel like, you know, at this point, now I feel like I've kind of been exiled to a certain point. And we've seen it happen in the past. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:51:48 You know what I mean? I, like I said, never say never. Like maybe they could reach out to me potentially for something. But I've just kind of taken it off my list of, you know, just even goals at this point. You know what I mean? Like I'm focusing on like the NWA. I'm focusing on my education. and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:52:07 But, you know, it obviously would be an exciting thing. But I don't know. You know, when you haven't been reached out to in that period of time, you just kind of feel like, all right, well, you know, that's it. There's still, you know, a big chunk of your fans in the audience that know you from your time in TNA. And, you know, I think that that was a solid run there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:29 Yeah, it was cool, man. Like, I don't, I'm glad to have had it and all of that. I don't know. I didn't even factor. honestly until you well you know why you know why because you know while i was doing impact there were so many wrestling fans that would come up to me and still be like oh what are you coming back or or it's like they hadn't seen it any of the impact wrestling stuff and i know that you know there's a lot of wrestling fans out there that and they see impact is just uh you know it's not

Starting point is 00:52:58 every day that i had somebody coming up to me and being like oh your impact for it was awesome yeah but thank you you worked under your real name there briefly, which I thought was very interesting. Yeah, you know, I mean, it was just an opportunity that came along. I had been working with Jeff Jurid before that, with the global force wrestling, and then the, you know, impact wrestling thing kind of happened, and the merger, and Jeff recruited me. And I had developed a good relationship with Jeff going back to Rinka King in India.

Starting point is 00:53:27 And, you know, Jeff kind of recognized me for kind of the underrated worker that I was, and he liked that. So, and then he would use me. that point on, he used me in global force, and then he ended up bringing me into impact. But then, you know, when Jeff ended up leaving impact, it felt like, you know, my guy, I kind of lost my guy. And, you know, essentially, you know, my days were kind of numbered there. I thought, not as that they had released me, but it just, you know, there were a number of factors, you know what I mean, like money and stuff like that that made it, you know, made it not the best situation for me.

Starting point is 00:54:02 Yeah. You know, the first person to ever break the master. lock was Bobby Lashley. And here we are coming full circle. Bobby Lashley now uses the MasterLock. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've talked to MVP about this and I don't, you're there. You must have been getting a phone call. No, no, actually, it's just my phone battery saying it's low.

Starting point is 00:54:29 We were trying to do this on a computer, but now we have to go on the phone and now the phone battery is a little bit. So, yeah, you know, it only makes sense, right? Like, if anybody's going to use the full Nelson, the guy who broke it, and a guy who's such a physical force like Bobby

Starting point is 00:54:47 Lashry, I mean, to me, it's hard to even argue with it. You know what I mean? It just kind of makes sense. But it was funny, you know, when he first started using it, all the different mentions and stuff like that of people talking about, hey, that's not the master lock. That's not the hurt lock and all that type

Starting point is 00:55:03 stuff. And I mean, I'd be like if I didn't say it didn't, in my mind, create an opportunity for something, you know, even if it was small in terms of, you know, who's got the best full Nelson professional wrestling. But, you know, who knows if anybody even want to see that. But, you know, I still think that, you know, if somebody was, it's been, first of all, it's been, again, like you said, it's been 10 years. And usually, usually finishers are recycled well before the 10 year mark. You know what I mean? Like, we were talking about. Carlito a minute ago, you know, his backstabber was recycled, not even what, three or four years later with Alberto del Rio. So, I mean, you know, for nobody to use the phone else in for 10

Starting point is 00:55:44 years is, you know, it's a pretty long time. And, you know, the guy who broke it, you know, guy that big, I mean, it just, it kind of makes sense. But, you know, maybe Masterlock versus hurt lock. I think that the Masterlock versus the Hurtlock makes perfect sense. Yeah. Have you talked to Bobby's? Vince? You know, we follow each other on Instagram, and I don't think I've seen him since he's been in WWE, but, like, you know, we hung out at Impact Wrestling and stuff. So, you know, I've known Bobby since Louisville, so OVW.

Starting point is 00:56:20 So, I mean, you know, Bobby's someone I've known in this business for a long time. So, I mean, you know, people ask me if Bobby asked me for permission to use the lock. And I remember I responded to somebody on Twitter and said, no, and they made this big thing. Or somebody said, oh, does he have to? And I'm like, no, that's not what I was getting at. No, he doesn't have to ask me for permission. Of course not. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:56:43 Like, again, like Bobby essentially is a guy I've known in this business for so long. And, you know, to me, it only makes sense. So, you know, he wouldn't have to ask me. That's not a thing. And, you know, I'm just, I'm glad to see guys. like Bobby Lashley and Drew McIntyre doing as well as they are because, you know, Drew's another guy for me. I've always known Drew's ability.

Starting point is 00:57:08 Like I had some of the best matches of my career with him back in 2011. This is when he wasn't being pushed or anything. I just saw the talent he had and the ability he had. So for me, you know, I like seeing the like those two guys going at it, you know, and, you know, in the WrestleMania and all that. Are you still as big of a wrestling fan? now that you were when you grew up? No, I don't, I don't think I'll ever, like, I don't, I don't think I'll ever be able

Starting point is 00:57:37 to duplicate that because now it's, it's different, you know what I mean, it's what I do for work, but like I will say that, you know, even through the pandemic, I found myself on, on many occasions, you know, when I go through YouTube, I'll seek out old professional wrestling and watch it, you know what I mean? And, you know, I've become a fan of a lot of the various podcast, including yourself and, you know, something to wrestle is always an interesting listening. Jim Cornett, of course. But I don't know. It's a tough question to ask. Like, no, I don't follow Raw every week, like everything that's going on now. I don't follow it religiously. I see what's going on and, you know, I see it through various outlets, whether

Starting point is 00:58:19 it's YouTube, Instagram or whatever. But my real wrestling fandom is anything from 1998 and before that. You know what I mean? It's that whole time thing of wrestling. So I'll go back and I'll watch various stuff, you know, like the other day I was watching Hot Rod Roddy, Roddy Piper and Brett the Hitman Hart from, you know, WrestleMania. I think it was WrestleMania 8. You know what I mean? Yeah, like that's the stuff I like to watch and, you know, as kind of my, you know,

Starting point is 00:58:49 in my leisure time, so to speak. Or even, you know, my favorite couple of years of professional wrestling was 1997, gleating in tonight to 98 because you had the Monday night wars you had heel Brett the Hitman Hart doing the Canadian thing which was in my vision or my opinion the most awesome version

Starting point is 00:59:10 of Brett you had Sean transitioning into a heel you had stone cold transitioning in the stone cold just so many different things going off that were laying the groundwork for now eventually the attitude era which was the wrestling boom and so

Starting point is 00:59:26 for me those were the two years I whole, you know, nearest and dearest to my heart. Yeah. Do you think about life after wrestling? Like, you and I are the same age. Do you think about life after wrestling? Yeah, now I do, you know, because, like you said, my age and, you know, a lot of that is why I'm working on, you know, education and stuff like that now because, you have 38 years old. So, I mean, I might still be in good shape and stuff like that. But, you know, I've got to start thinking of, other things to do with myself. You know what I mean? Because I mean,

Starting point is 01:00:01 you know, we all, you know, most of us plan to try to live a long fulfilling life. So you can't just stop it with, even if you've made your living and stuff and you're doing great, you don't want to just stop, you know, with that. You know what I mean? You want to be a productive person.

Starting point is 01:00:14 So for me, a lot of that is, you know, the education and the various things I'm doing there. But it's also, in terms of pro wrestling, it's looking at the potential of, you know, what else can I do in pro wrestling? And like one of the things I've thought about more recently is producing, which is, you know, like, you know, they used to call them agents of professional wrestling, but a producer is, you know, kind of the third brain in a match.

Starting point is 01:00:39 It's the person who essentially, you know, two guys will bounce their ideas off of. It's the guy that also will give the two participants their outcome and their time and all that. But, you know, I love the creative process. I like the part when, you know, I'm getting together with my opponent and I'm talking it out with him and I like having that producer in there to bounce, hey, we'll come up with some ideas, but then we're like, hey, what do you think of this? You know what I mean? Or how can this be improved? And to me, that's a part of the business I've come to understand a lot better throughout

Starting point is 01:01:11 the kind of second half of my career, the kind of the storytelling aspect, the selling aspect, you know, all the little things that break, you know, that break up to make a good match. So, you know, that's the stuff I've kind of been looking at more lately or kind of open my mind to. And, you know, eventually maybe that's something that I can do it to be, you know, to contribute to the business and still potentially make a living in the business. I mean, if you talk about education, you're getting a GED, are you then looking ahead to do you want to get a college degree? Well, I mean, I've looked at college courses, but there hasn't been anything specifically that has stood out yet. So I'm starting with the GED. And, you know, if anything, I'd like, you know, another thing I've been looking into is a lot like kind of what you're doing in terms of, you know, the podcasting, broadcasting, sports broadcasting, stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:02:07 You know, I do a Lakers Nation podcast, which gets a ton of viewers. Not by, they're not Chris Masters people either. I mean, these are just Laker fans. You know, the Lakers Nation platform is a big platform with a lot of followers. it's like the it's the fan site for lakers and uh so that's been a really fun thing to do for me because it's given me like a lot of my followers now aren't just wrestling people they're lakers laker fans and uh that's something i'm really passionate about like i love basketball i love uh the NBA i love you know sports in general but um so you know that's been kind of a fun thing to do

Starting point is 01:02:45 in order to kind of uh you know get some experience doing that it's almost been to me it's felt like an internship because it's a place where I can be a co-host to my you know my my my my my my host which is Trevor lane and uh you know there's a lot of people watching and you know I have got to discuss something that isn't professional wrestling even in basketball and but it's fun because I truly love it and I believe purple and gold so it's it's not work it's fun I've been in L.A. since last summer and I will say one thing about L.A. is there's not a lot of sports fans here. So it's so exciting hearing that you were like a die hard Lakers fan. And anyone that follows you on social media saw like when Kobe passed away, you were right there.

Starting point is 01:03:32 You were at Staples Center. You were there for the memorial. Like I feel like in a way, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it felt like you were losing a family member. Oh, man. Yeah, it was tough, man. I couldn't even believe it. You know, when I had to have my girlfriend at the time even read the. headline to me when I, because once I knew it was real, I don't know, I was so messed up about it and

Starting point is 01:03:56 didn't know what to do with myself. I did what a lot of people did. I just drove to Staples Center, drove right to Staples Center and just, you know, we all just stood out there and mourned, man. I mean, to me, I told people this before for Los Angeles, it was like if there was a true, if there was a real Batman, it was the equivalent of Gotham City losing its Batman. That's what Kobe Bryant passing away was to Los Angeles. Like, He inspired that city and he was just, he was a special person, man. And yeah, like, it hit the world, but it really hit Los Angeles hard. And, like, it was just, it was a tough year for that stuff, man, because not only, you know, Kobe, but then, you know, the Shad Gaspard thing happened and that, I mean, those two tragedies.

Starting point is 01:04:40 I mean, it was so weird because they both hurt so bad. But, like, it was weird because I personally knew Shat, you know what I mean? So that you can understand. Like, I didn't personally know Kobe, but Kobe is what? one of my all-time most, you know, sports heroes or inspirations or muses or whatever you would want to call that. So, you know, those two tragedies amongst various others. I mean, obviously it was a tough for that, all of that. But, you know, it was tough. It was, you know, the Kobe and Shad thing felt like just two tragedies, two of the worst tragedies you could ever

Starting point is 01:05:14 ever imagine in a lifetime, you know. You were close. You were close to Shad. Like you're both LA guys too. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, Shad had moved to L.A. Shad wasn't an L.A. guy originally. I had met Shad in OV.W. again, so I've known him since the very beginning of this whole wrestling journey. And he had eventually moved to Los Angeles,

Starting point is 01:05:33 maybe, I don't know if it was like 2015, something like that, 2014. But I'll tell you what, man, there wasn't a guy I've ever seen moved to Los Angeles and get over the way Shad did. Just for, you know, he would be, he used to drive me crazy because he'd be at Gold Ship,

Starting point is 01:05:48 Venice literally every time I went there. Shad would be there and I'd just say, what is going on, man? Are you living here? Like, what is this? There's some 20 hour workout I don't know about that I need to start. So, but yeah, but Shad really developed a lot of love in that whole community, man. Like everybody in Gold's Gym Venice, man, the turnout that he had when he passed at the beach and, you know, from that. And then Arnold Schwarzenegger going to his memorial like Golds Venice and posting a picture about it. I mean, it was just, it was so Shad Gaspard to kind of go out in such spectacular fashion the way he did, you know, to be such a hero and for so many people, you know, we made a lot of jokes about it. We just, we found it so funny that Chad, knowing his personnel, the way we all

Starting point is 01:06:36 did, would go out in a way that, like, I mean, I hope he gets that, um, Hall of Fame, you know, that warrior, you know, I mean, like, yeah, like, I know it didn't happen for him. year, but I still think Shad needs to be a contender for that. I know that they, you know, put Titus to Emil in that spot, but I, and it sounds like he was very deserving of that. But, you know, I'd like to see Shad, even if it's next year, still be recognized. Because, I mean, just what he did, man, for his son. It was just such a heroic act, man, and just such a, I don't know, it was just a crazy. You know, and I lived, the thing about that that was so crazy is, I was living in Marina del Rey. And that is literally, I mean, it's basically three blocks

Starting point is 01:07:17 east of where he drowned. So I mean, I was just every day that we have discovered his body. I mean, it just, you know, this feeling your stomach of just being kind of sick, just knowing that your, your boy is out there and they can't find him. So, yeah, some tough stuff to look back on, man. Yeah, that's the place. I dropped you off of that place in Marina Del Rey, right? Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yep, that's, yep, that was, uh, I like that community over that. It was nice. Yeah, that was, I was blown away that when we got to Texas, we were hungry, we needed to eat. There's an in and out across the street from the hotel, and a guy that looks like you eats in and out.

Starting point is 01:08:00 This was mind-blowing to me. Hey, I'm a California guy, man. Like, we live, we love in-and-out. That's one thing about us. And I think most people who come to California, I mean, one of the questions you always asked is, like, did you get some in-and-out? Sure. by In-N-N-N-O and, you know, I don't want to go into a whole thing on In-N-Out, but, you know, a lot of people, it's funny with In-N-Out, because you'll have people who swear by it, and then some people who feel like it's overrated, you know what I mean? It's either In-N-Rat or What-A-Burger, and then there's a bunch of people that are like, no, five guys is the best.

Starting point is 01:08:34 Exactly, exactly. It is that. And I don't know, for me, In-N-Out's just got the freshest, like, you know, it's not that they do anything particularly innovative. It's just all. other stuff is fresh to death. I mean, that's why it's a West Coast company. If you ever watch a documentary on In and Out, you'll have a lot of respect for kind of what they do in terms of paying their employees and the freshness of their products and not compromising that freshness

Starting point is 01:08:59 by expanding too much. So it's an awesome company, and I love the burgers, man. Those double doubles. I guess I'm just more... Go ahead. I'm just blown away that you can, you know, look like you look and eat fast food.

Starting point is 01:09:11 Well, no, you can't. That's the thing. You know, people always say, say that, like, you can't do in and out every day. But I mean, there are points in time, you know, where you just got to say effort. And you're like, you know, I'm going to, you know, that was in a circumstance where in and out was the best option available. So I'm going to take it.

Starting point is 01:09:29 You know what I mean? Like, I can live with the fact, me personally, if I eat in and out like once a week, you know, that's not a big thing for me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, as a matter of fact, you know, usually my goal on a weekly basis is, you know, because at this point, I usually work weekends, you know, when there isn't a pandemic, obviously. Sure. And so my whole goal is Monday through Friday to get in all of my workouts and try to eat as good as possible

Starting point is 01:09:56 so that on the weekend I can be allowed. Not only do I not have to train on Saturday and Sunday, but I can also if, you know, when I go to the various places to wrestle, I can kind of, you know, I can eat a little more freely. Like I can go to In-N-Out Burger with you because I know that, you know, for the whole, whole week I've been at least, you know, for the most I haven't been eating fried food and stuff like that. Yeah. It's encouraging for me to think about that. Once a week. Once a week. I like pizza a lot, so this makes me feel good. So as the most starting to open up a little bit more, you're open for bookings. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and things have started to pick up a little bit already,

Starting point is 01:10:39 which is nice. I mean, I don't know about you, but I've just been hoping that since this whole pandemic has gone down, you know, I've just been hoping that we're going to come out of it and the economy starts roaring and everybody's working again. And there's a lot of pent-up demand for, you know, just various things, you know, like people want to get, you know, get the engine going, the engine of the economy. So, I mean, that translates to everything. So, you know, it's nice to see pro wrestling kind of going on a little bit with NWA kind of opening doors again and we're obviously doing that and then just working various shows being the Florida show I just did. I'm going to be in a couple weeks. I'll be in Fort Wayne, Indiana for a show working against my old buddy

Starting point is 01:11:24 Carlito and then, you know, even Miami the next month. So it's nice to see that because I mean, again, we were coming from a place where, man, I mean, I've never had such a wide open calendar since I started wrestling. But, I mean, that was, if you weren't a WW wrestler or an AEW wrestler, that was pretty much everybody, man. I mean, you know, we've all been hit by this pandemic to some extent. You know what I mean? Some more than others, but I think everybody's been hit to some extent.

Starting point is 01:11:56 So is the best way for people to find you on Twitter or Instagram? Yeah, yeah. For bookings, you know, I'm on Instagram. It's Chris Masters 310 on Twitter, even though you've been trying to get me to switch and it's at Chris Adonis. But, you know, and then I obviously do a lot of my bookings through email too, which is Masterpiece 83 at gmail.com. But yeah, anybody who's, you know, got a show lined up or anything on the horizon for, you know,

Starting point is 01:12:25 for the year 2021 here, feel free to reach out because I am taking bookings. Let's get back to work. Yeah. Book Chris Masters for the Masterlock Challenge. That's what we should do. Oh, yeah, because that's an easy payday. Whatever, it's funny, whenever anybody books me for a Master Lock Challenge, I'm like, really?

Starting point is 01:12:44 That's it. And you're like, I don't have to wrestle. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. It comes in handy. I'm so happy to have you back on the show, Chris. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 01:12:54 Oh, yeah, man. It's been great to be on with you again. And I just hope that I can be physically back. back in Los Angeles soon so we can hang out and maybe actually do one of these interviews in person because I would love to do it. What are you waiting for? Get out here. I'm ready for LA to open back up, man. But I heard we got the news that I think yesterday that you guys are opening up June 15th. So I might have to start looking at this more seriously. Yeah, the governor just tweeted that if things keep going the way they are, that the state will be

Starting point is 01:13:25 fully open June 15th. Yeah. And California is so locked down with all of their rules. So if California says June 15th, this is great news for everybody. Yeah, well, that's the part that shocked me when I heard it because I know L.A. has been a lot more concerned, or California has been more conservative with the lockdown. And then I'm here in Michigan now,

Starting point is 01:13:47 and the numbers are going up here. So it's kind of one of those things. It seems like a lot of touch. I'm just hoping with L.A. or California general that once it's open, it's able to stay open. And we don't have this. because, you know, this thing where it's open and then, oh, wait, and the numbers are going up type of thing.

Starting point is 01:14:04 But, you know, hopefully enough Americans get vaccinated. I don't know how you feel about that, but I feel like I'm at a point. I know, see, I know there's a lot of, and this is a whole other topic. We won't go into it. But I know there's a lot of anti-vaxxers out there. But for me, personally, I know that I'm going to have to get it if I want to work in some of these countries. So it's just kind of a non-choice. So I'm kind of anxious to get it because then it just means I can go everywhere I need to go.

Starting point is 01:14:28 Yeah. I end every interview, Chris, by talking about gratitude, which is such an important thing in my own life. So what are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? Three things I'm grateful for. I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for the opportunity of NWA. And I'm also grateful for the drive I have at this point in my life to do, you know, all. these various things, whether it be the wrestling, the education, just, you know, just, you know,

Starting point is 01:15:05 to diversify my portfolio and try different things and be enthusiastic about, you know, not just wrestling. That's always been one of the things for me. Wrestling has been the only thing I've been enthusiastic about in my life. So developing, that's always going to be there. Developing enthusiasm for other things has been an important thing for me, and I think I've gotten to that point. I love it. Chris, thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Chris. Well, there it is, my friend. A big thank you to Chris Masters for this great conversation.

Starting point is 01:15:39 And a big thank you to you for being on this audio adventure with us. Chris is doing some great stuff in NWA right now. So if you haven't checked it out yet, I highly encourage you to check it out. Take a screenshot. Let us know what stood out for you the most in this conversation. Tag us on social media. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Chris Masters is at Chris Masters 310.

Starting point is 01:16:01 on Instagram and at Chris Adonis on Twitter. And speaking of Twitter, I tweeted out this quote from Charles Darwin last week that really spoke to me, a man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. One more time. One more time. A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. There we go. Be great.

Starting point is 01:16:30 Be grateful, my friend. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock?

Starting point is 01:16:51 I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of them? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing that. Hammer Alley.

Starting point is 01:17:03 Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Chris Masters on a possible WWE return, addiction to painkillers, The Master Lock, NWA

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