Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Damien Sandow Is Wrestling Comedy Gold!

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Aron Stevens (@thearonfiles) is an actor and professional wrestler known for his time in NWA, TNA and also WWE where he performed under the name Damien Sandow. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet to talk about being part of NWA's roster, what he has learned from working with Billy Corgan, his approach to comedy in pro wrestling, his hilarious storylines in WWE, his unsuccessful cash-in as Sir Money In the Bank, wrestling against John Cena, being The Miz's stunt double when he was Damien Mizdow, being released from WWE, being on "I Think You Should Leave With Tim Robinson" and much more! Quote I'm thinking about: "I’d rather regret the things I’ve done than the things I haven’t done." - Lucille Ball Sponsors: GREEN CHEF: Go to https://greenchef.com/60insightpod and use code 60insightpod to get 60% off, plus 20% off your next two months ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and experience financial freedom: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv BETTERHELP: Get 10% off your first month with the code INSIGHT at http://betterhelp.com/insight MUDWTR: Get 15% off with the code CVV15 at http://mudwtr.com/cvv MAGIC SPOON: Get $5 off with the code CVV at http://magicspoon.com/cvv MYBOOKIE: Bet on WWE! Get up to $200 cash bonus when you use the code CVV and sign up at http://mybookie.ag BLUECHEW: Use the code CVV to get your first month of BlueChew for FREE at http://bluechew.com PLUNGE: Get $150 off your Plunge with the coupon code CVV150 at http://plunge.com BONCHARGE: Go to http://boncharge.com/CVV and use coupon code CVV to save 15% For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris. Oh, that song is just so catchy. Thank you again, Downstate, for making me sound awesome. Welcome back to another one here on Inside. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleet. I know there's a ton of wrestling podcasts out there, so I appreciate you being here. And thank you for making Insight one of the top wrestling podcasts on planet Earth.

And I know there's a lot of you who just started listening to the show over the last few weeks, maybe a few months. Welcome. Could I ask for just one teeny tiny little favor? Could you hit that follow button wherever you're listening to this right now as the show keeps getting bigger with your help?

The guests can keep getting bigger. If you listen to the Ask CVV episode that I did on Friday, I teased. I teased a really big guest that we have coming up. He's, I don't want to give too much away,

but let's just say you won't be able to see him. And we're able to get guests. like that because the show keeps getting bigger with your support. Just by you being here is so awesome. So thanks for being here. If you're new here, I appreciate you. If you've been around for all 566 episodes, I know you're already following. So I appreciate you. And what a good one today. You knew him as Damien Sandow in WW. He's now in the NWA under his real name, Aaron Stevens. And I think he's one of the top five funniest people in all wrestling.

The work that he did is the intellectual savior to the unwashed masses as the Mrs. Stunt Double, Damien Mizdao, as Sir Money in the Bank. I mean, there's just so much great work there. Damien Sandow, Aaron Stevens, whatever you want to call him, the man has so much talent. And I just love the way that he cultivates his characters. He was released from WWE in 2016. He did some great stuff very briefly in TNA, but then decided that he wanted to focus on acting.

And you saw him in a bunch of things. Actually, you've recently seen him in Tim Robinson's show, I think you should leave now with Tim Robinson. That's the full title. I think you should leave now with Tim Robinson. That bit about paying it forward. So good. He came back to wrestling.

When he debuted on NWA Power in 2019, he's now been part. of some of their hilarious segments and storylines there. And I just, I can't say enough great things about him. And it was so good to be able to sit down with him again. Years later, I think our last interview is February 2019. So it's been a while. And there's a lot to catch up on here. If you enjoy this, please take a screenshot. Share it all out on the social medias. So we can share it as all tag us so we can share it. He's at the Aaron Files on Instagram. That's Aaron with one A, by the way. A.R.O.N. So not A-A-A-R-N. Not A-A-A-R-R-N. The A-R-N files, if you will, the Aaron files on

Instagram at Aaron's Thoughts on Twitter. I'm at Chris Van Vlead, and here we go. Enjoy this one with Aaron Stevens, aka Damien Sandow. So February 2019, that's the last time we did an interview. Crazy. I mean, it's been almost five years. The world is a very different place. The world is a different place. We're both in different places within this world. You weren't even in wrestling at that time. No, no. I had kind of completely cut ties with the wrestling industry

and was happily pursuing my dreams of being an actor and was actually making a lot of headway. Things were going very well. And this was 2019 after we last talked. And I was actually in Hawaii filming an episode of Magnum P.I. Yeah. And it was great. It was actually Labor Day weekend.

I'll never forget it because the way the schedule worked, like I had four days off in Waikiki, which was amazing. I didn't have to do anything. And I was there for about three weeks. And, you know, weekends off, of course, and stuff. So it was a great time. And but on one of my days off, I was on the beach and just kind of kicking it. And phone rings.

And it was one of Billy Corgan's people saying, were doing these episodes and blah blah blah explaining what NWA power was going to be and I'm just like ah I don't know and you already have a plane ticket just come on wow so I went okay whatever didn't even discuss price with him I was just like I don't know it was like in this weird place where I was like oh you're right like I what I thought had like made peace with acting

because okay this is going to lead to other projects you know how it is right Yeah, yeah. And that was like the biggest role I've had to date. So, yeah, you know what? I can explore some wrestling. Life is good. I've kind of made my piece with it. But then what happened was I flew in a day early.

And when I walked into that studio, and I'm talking about like the pre-pandemic. The one in Atlanta? Yeah, the one in Atlanta for those first episodes of power. I remember I walked in and it was like the top floor so I got like to look down and see everything and like they just happen to have all the lights on and uh I went whoa

like I stopped and I got chills for a second I'm like this looks incredible like it's as if the original NWA show never went off the air and it was just like it was magic and I will say this like that crowd was just magic like to way they like you know we we had a very

deep roster then and like the crowd just loved it it was this weird kind of void that I think is missing in the business today and I think now you know as when we talk about like

the world's a different place at the top of the interview from when we last spoke so yeah like you know in dealing with the pandemic and you know all the the issues going on in society today. I think with NWA, you know, in a kind of post-2020 world, where we have, like, really found who we are.

And, you know, may not be 100% there yet, but it's fun because, like, like, the core of who we are, like the essence of, like, who we are as a group. Because I've never worked with a group in my life. And I've worked a lot of places that has been more. And I truly say this like in the best way possible, interdependent on each other in order for the show to go off. And like when other companies, they'll talk, oh, it's a family. It's a family.

And, you know, like it's, in my opinion, it's just nonsense and it's corporate stuff. Because look, like your family is one thing. And business is another thing. And it's fine. You know, I'm not like knocking saying, oh, it's a, I'm not condemning anyone for calling whatever, but I just don't feel having worked for any other company that like you're part of a weird family. Yeah.

But we don't say that at NWA because like we are and like we all know it. It's just from the top down. And there's just such a, such a cool place to be that I never like the last time we talked, I never thought I would be here. Yeah. to where like when I have to get on a plane and it's like to go to wrestling I'm like oh okay like I'm happy and I'm excited and like I'm thinking about what's going to happen and you know um it's like a passion that I never thought I would have had reignited and uh I'm just very very grateful like um you know

it's to Billy um Pat Canney uh who has been like really instrumental and um and kind of like helping me to find who I am now. Not necessarily in front of the camera, because I've never needed help with that. Like, that's just, you know, a thing that's a, like one of the things, you know, the switch goes on and, you know, it's there.

But behind the scenes, like, to where like, okay, if I'm not going to wrestle anymore, but I'm still going to be there. Like, what else can I do? Sure. To kind of give back. Because my whole thing was, people it's oh you'd make a great producer you'd make a great no I wouldn't like I I

number one like they say producers people have so you make a great trainer I'm like uh-uh like I'm not because because number one are like based on my personality right and it can be a quirky one I'll admit um as well anyone that's that's known me but like I don't have the patience and I realize that to teach someone how to fall down and in like like the basics but i one of the things like i've kind of i think developed a strength for is like when someone has gotten the basics down right like how are you going to present yourself to an audience a live audience and a television audience and how is that going to make you stand out because like in wrestling we're selling ourselves yeah um and god that's actually a very deep uh

A deep statement. So let's just say on a very kind of like light level, you're like the commodity ourselves. Like we are, we want to make ourselves stars. So like how are we going to do that in a world where, you know, everyone,

their gear looks similar. They do similar moves. They, they work similar styles. They like, like how are you going to be different? And I think that that's something that like, like I've always had this weird kind of affinity for.

So, like, helping in that way is something that, like, I've made peace with because I've always said, if I'm going to be an agent or a trainer, like, that means I'm done and that means I'm old. And I have this horrible, like, I refuse to age. I don't like it. And, you know, I, like, well, for birthdays, you can celebrate, but don't sell. that's all that's my thing right um so like i i just try to like understand that like with my personality i will always probably like have to be in front of the camera at some point like because that or in front of a crowd because it's just it's part of who i am yeah so like there's absolutely like oh i'm going to

go be a producer not that there's anything wrong with that but just given what i've learned about myself you know, over the last few years, like, okay, like, that's just, that ain't happening. I mean, like, with my, my creativity, like, it needs an outlet. And this is the most positive thing like this. And, and, see, film and TV and, like, that is, it's rewarding and it's awesome. But it's like the instant gratification you get from wrestling, like, as a performer. It's just this weird kind of, like, all right. like when you when you do a scene right you're like oh i wonder if that was good i wonder if like

like will editing make that look good because like right we know editing can make or break a performance yeah will it even remain in the final cut yes exactly right and um but like when you when you finish a match or a segment on tv and like you know it's in front of however many people like you're like all right that rock we're good you know what i mean like there's something so humbling about acting in the whole process of like you dive into the work you figure you figure out you figure figure out the character, you do the audition, maybe you even get the role, but there's so much heartbreak, right, for every audition you do,

20 auditions you do, 50 auditions you do, you finally book one. It must have been nice that Billy Corgan call you and go, yeah, like, just get on the plane. You got the job. Well, I mean, again, like the wrestling version of me and the acting version of me, like, those are very different people, you know? Like, I obviously, I think, like, my

resume and wrestling reads a little bit deeper than my resume in Hollywood. And that's true today. It certainly was true five years ago. But like Billy and I, the first time we had met, it was at impact. And we had just like, oh, hey, what's going on? We actually had a mutual friend from WWE and stuff. So like we kind of, you know, knew each other. We're like, at least worth saying what's up to, right?

And so we get into, like, like, I meet him and like, okay, cool. Because again, like, okay, rock star, right? Like, if you grew up in the 90s, all right, like, yes, it's smashing pumpkins. Like, okay. Like, everyone knows, like, we know pumpkin songs. Like, they're kind of ingrained in the subconscious of that generation, right? Yep. And, and now, I mean, dare I say, like, some of those songs, right, where, like, like, rat in the cage, like, all that, like, it's, you know, Bullet and Butterfly Wings in a song.

But, but, like, everyone knows it's, like, the Rat in the Cage song. And, like, it's, it's everywhere. Like, it's in video games. It's kind of this. That's a movie trailer. Yeah. And, and that is, like, okay, that's all great, right? but like when I met him

we get into this conversation about Roddy Piper and Adrian Adonis and we're like we're talking and like I can as someone who has you know admittedly always thought outside the box when it comes to approaching wrestling and like I've taken risks admittedly um like the way he was talking about the match like I instantly was like okay like this guy knows what he's talking about

and like it completely went from like We have this weird wrestling relationship where, like even to this day, right? Like there was a tag team that they were at a show that we were both at. And like the second I saw those people, oh God, here we go. Like I saw that team. And like I saw Billy kind of do the same thing. And then we looked at each other. It was like, okay.

You know what I mean? Like we see the business, I think. think through a very similar lens in terms of like what it is is art because because it is it's like a lot of people like they'll look at wrestling and um it's right excuse me I'm going to grab a and please I will do the same yeah uh I should probably reload all right just going okay this has been fantastic this episode is brought to you by green chef I love eating clean but I don't love how much time it takes sometimes to make those healthy meals. And that's why Green Chef has been an absolute game changer in this household.

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Like I said, 80 plus menu items every single week. That's one that I will be. Man, I will be down in that so quickly. I love it, and I know that you're going to love it too. Go to greenchef.com slash 60 Insight Pod and use the code 60 Insight Pod to get, you guessed it, 60% off plus 20% off your next two months. So that's greencheft.com slash 60%.

60 Insight Pod. Greenchef.com slash 60 Insight Pod. Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. I was just also thinking, sure, we had the long interview five years ago. I did do an interview with you at NWA. Do you remember that? We did an interview as you were in character with the question. We'll get into that if you want.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll get into that. Yeah. Do you feel like taking the time away from wrestling needed? to happen for you to kind of reset, recharge, and look at it with a new set of eyes? Yes, 100%. Because I was in, you know, admittedly just a very interesting place in my life, right?

Like it wasn't the best spot, shall we say, right? Like, we're, you know, and again, like, I'm as, as people, right? Like, not just as performers, but as humans. Like, we have this, um, this just, this, just this, this, just, this special. of emotions that we go through, right? And as we get to different points in our life, right, depending on circumstances, you know, or a number of circumstances, we can find ourselves in a good place, a bad place, or just like, you know,

lost even, right? And I find that those times there were the most growth happens because it's like, it's how you deal with it. you know it's like um when i left the wbd i was really not in a good place and and like i had let myself down and you know um at the very least um let myself down and and i couldn't look at the mirror for like 18 months right bottom line like i i was just like i i'd shave with the the lights all right because it was just like this weird thing i was going through but then you know eventually like with anything like it came to a point where I said all right

like I'm the same guy who wrestle the invisible friggin man and and made it work like what is what is wrong with me like and I had become especially in Hollywood which which is like a weird thing right when like WWE right okay like they own the name Damien Sandel yeah right but Like, no one can rock Sandel like I can. Of course. Okay, fine, right? Like, you are Damien Sandow. Like Scott Hall-Rays Ramon, right?

And the list goes on and on. Like, whoever, like, we are, right, at our best, I think we need to kind of hold on to that when we're at our worst, because that just reminds us of what we're capable of. And so I said, yeah, you know what? Okay, and I had some management, you know, and some representation out there out in Cali that I was like, no, you know what, they're not my kind of people. Like, I have to, I have to at the very least, like, be true to myself and not try to conform to, you know, lose 10 pounds. You, like, shave.

You need to look more like this. You need to look more like that. And you need to be doing these kind of scenes. You need to be doing, like, it's kind of like, shut up. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, at the end of the day. You know, in Hollywood, there's a game, right? And it's, I mean, there's not a game.

There's multiple games being played on multiple different levels. Yeah. And this is no secret, right? And it's like, there's a saying, those who can't do teach, which is like, huh, you know. Is it true 100% of the time? No. Because there's a lot of teachers, like, like my, my acting. coach is a working actor, you know, and that's like, like, I booked more with him than anybody, right?

So, like, he's actively doing it. He knows, like, you know, he's, he's actively engaged in the process. And, like, people in Hollywood, I find, like, they sell this dream. And, and it's, like, completely void on many levels of just common sense to where, like, you have to wake up and say, You know what? No. Like you're, like, you want me to do this kind of thing? Like, you're an idiot. You know what I mean? Because at the very least, I have explained to you.

I don't want to do this. Hollywood's really just getting used to failing a lot. Yeah. Like, you're getting auditions for things you probably aren't going to get. And you pour all the work into the audition. And then you wake up and you do it again the next day. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's it. Right. And then, like, it's weird because, like Magnum P.I. I got through nepotism. I'm like, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I did have like, I had to audition and everything like that. It was like a whole thing. But we had an end. Yeah, like with anything. Yeah. But it wasn't like snap your fingers wrong. So like I had to to get seen. You know what I mean? It was a recommendation. What about the Tim Robinson thing? Everyone talks about that dude that thing went everywhere okay so like i had left la um you know and because because again

like what what cobb is done like all the auditions are on they're all on the phone now so it's great so like i left l a and i was i was in Atlanta when i was on heels um so i'm like living kind of in the southeast right and get a phone call hey read for this part okay excuse me well you got the part all right fly across the country like a day i think a day or two and um all right cool we do it and it had a great time like it was awesome like tim's just chill um really fun work environment everybody was cool and then like months later people are just like texting me and instagram i think like you even yeah i was like what what like how like i had no idea um and again that like that's get that's testament to the um the writing um and

And, you know, how good Tim is. And the power of Netflix, too, like. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. It's everywhere. But yeah, the pay it forward thing. And, you know, I don't go to drive-thrus anymore. And I'm glad I know it because I think if I ever came out, like maybe that'd be a.

Oh, I'd have to put that weird. They had me dressed in this weird thing. And like, I'm like, why do I look like John Hamm's stunt double? It doesn't, you know. It's called, I think you should leave for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about. And you're so brilliant in it. Oh, thank you. So when you dip your toe back into the acting world,

Do you not go, man, I kind of like this. Catering's a lot better here too. Yeah, you know, I, um, catering is a lot better. Okay, yeah, well, it depends on what project you're on. Like, uh, like I've, um, Jen, I don't know if she's still at WW, but, uh, but Jen from catering, she was awesome. Like when I was there, that was, like Jen, two thumbs. She's always great with, with, uh, you know, there'd always be the, the right kind of

Yeah, yeah. Lemon moscopone. Oh, my gosh. Like, yeah. Was the toughest thing about leaving WWE? Was it that your identity was attached to? I was a WWE superstar, and now I don't know what I am. The long answer to that question is yes.

But, like, the deeper answer is I had to make peace with myself that wrestling was part of who I am. because like and it's funny right like I think the reason that I'm able to perform at the level I perform at is

and by the way like it's funny when you work with people because like it ended up way I even have this reputation of like I don't really talk a lot in the back like I'll just

you know what I mean when you go out there it just like do it you know because that to me where's like that's where the fun is um but

it's an interesting place to be right like when you can just kind of like have this realization right that like although things didn't turn out the way you wanted although you know you put yourself on this trajectory from the time you were whatever age and and like like I was always used to accomplishing every single goal I had right like I'd find a way to do it and then you know you find yourself in a spot. And again, I, I don't want to get into like the why, like, like, people like when they look at my career, like there was a lot of like, why did this happen? What? The reality is, you know, it did happen for whatever reason. And like, I've heard theories, but like, I don't even want to publicly say them because it's like, it's not, you know,

it's not for me to say because I don't know if they're true or not, right? So I'm like, it's not going to improve my situation for talking about it. It's not that, you know, if I had to breaking any news it would be to you, Chris. But, uh, thank you. Yeah. But, uh, but no, it was just like, essentially, like saying, all right, enough. Like, I have to evolve, right? Like, like, I, like, so many people in the industry, um, it's like they try to hang on to this, this image, the snapshot of who they were at their prime.

Yeah. And, and although, like, we should embrace, like, who we are, right? And who we are, right? And who we were at all periods of our life, you know, provided we weren't ax murderers or anything like that. But like, in terms of like this linear development as people, it's important to evolve, right? So like for me, like the current character I'm doing now, it's a, it really is kind of like this cornucopia or chop suey or like whatever. chop suey's probably the better analogy in this case but um

of like like the the bits of my personality like there's a little bit of everything sprinkled in there and um and like if if you ask like anyone like really close to me like they'll say like the character that I'm playing in NWA it's not that far off from who I am

you know what I mean and like because I'm always like you know I'm I'm the one that's usually always like cutting up and trying to make light of a situation. You do tremendous work. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And actually,

I brought your name up when I had Billy Corgan on the show a handful of months ago. And we were just talking about how supremely talented that you are. Oh, thank you, man. You take one little idea and you turn it into a great promo

or a great moment or a great storyline. And that is a gift. Not everybody has that. There's a lot of managers out there. Not every manager is great, though. Oh, thank you. Well, the thing is, though, I think I would argue.

And it's just a theory of mine, right? But like, anyone that gets into the wrestling business, at some level, you have to have a wire or two that, like, isn't quite connected or crossed with something else, right? Like, there has to be like that little, if anything else, like, why would you want to beat yourself up? You know? and put yourself through what you have to go through and all the BS of it. And so at some level,

like something spoke to you enough to say, I want to like not be like all these other people and I want to try this, right? So like whatever that thing is. And like when you talk about that little like like taking something small and making it into something else, like it's like the art of turning a strong

of gold, right? As they said, or Lumpel-Stillskin, or lead in the gold, as the alchemist would say. Sure. But not to get too esoteric. But we can go there. Oh, fine, yeah, we can do a spirituality. Yeah, that's great. But no, like, you have to find your why, I call it. And that's like I tell people that when they ask me for character advice, you have to find your why.

Like, why did I get into wrestling? And you have to be very honest with yourself. Is it because I find some weird consolation and I can get anyone to chant my name or hate me or pretty much do anything I want because I just go out there and talk and just like and I need that adulation. Does it console me on some weird level? Is it because I want money? is it because I like the idea of going somewhere and people knowing who I am. Like you have to be very honest with yourself at that level. And then once you kind of find your why, you can just spin that into whatever you wanted to.

You mean asking you yourself, your why? Yes. Not your character. No, yourself. You have to be like, why did Chris decide to get into wrestling? you know, were you always fascinated with this end of it? Yes. I mean, I trained to be a pro wrestler.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, why did you, like, at what point, like, in your life, right? So, like, you're, how old are you when you got into wrestling? 16, probably, like, really hardcore in wrestling. Yeah. Okay. And, like, then to get into, like, to go to wrestling school.

Yeah. Like, when you make. 20. Okay. So, like, you're 20 years old. And you then, like, at what point do you remember being a 20-year-old saying, like, I'm going to sign up for wrestling school? I was a,

backyard wrestler and me and my body had a pact that when we the summer between it was a sophomore and junior year we were going to go he didn't end up going i did it's actually very similar situation with me and a friend of mine we were just talking about that the other night that's we went to wrestling school yeah we had a backyard yeah that's crazy but like it's like why did you like get in a backyard like what what made you because this is isn't there there's a there's a thing it's like the five whys right because you asked the first why, and then, well, why'd you do that? Well, then why'd you do that? If you can get five whys into it and you still have answers, you're on to something.

Yeah, so like, whatever made you because you saw it on TV and you thought it was cool. Yeah. Right? Like, all right, whatever reason it was. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you on the show. I love it. Although when I go to battle arts, I do it to people that have trouble with characters. It's actually quite fun.

But then what's your why? Because I'm sure you figured it out. Yeah, my why. So essentially, I was five years old and I lost an arcade game. I had to stand on the stool to play it. I was just a little thing. And I didn't know what I was doing. I was pressing the buttons, but it happened to be a pro wrestling game and I lost.

And then the character was taunting me. And I remember I'd gotten upset and I said, I'm going to be a wrestler. And it was weird. And I know that's like, for whatever reason, my brain just said, okay, like that's something I'm going to, like at some point in my life, like, I'm going to have a relationship with this industry and I don't know what it is, but I always kind of felt this weird, like, I belong there and then like getting into it like at Kowalski's at 16. Like, man, you talk, you talk in education, okay?

Like, so I went to Catholic school, um, holy name junior senior high school in Worcester. it has now merged with St. Peter Marion, and it's another name, but I am publicly going to say that Holy Name was doing much better because of Mr. Reynolds and should have won that war, but I will leave that to the Diocese of Worcester and the bishop. I'm just saying Holy Name was a better high school. I am publicly saying that I'd like to any Holy Name graduate out there, you know what I'm talking about. And thank you, Mr. Reynolds, for everything. So, yeah, so, like, I was in Catholic. We had some nuns, but it was a very kind of like a strict but nurturing environment for a high school.

And then as I'm a junior, like, I get in a pro wrestling. And I'm now at Killer Kowalski's Institute of Professional Wrestling on the weekends. Wow. And although I was like, you know, a bigger kid in high school and stuff, like, you know, you go from like a big 16 year old is not a big 21, 25 year old. Sure. Like a different world, right? So I always had bruises on me and stuff. And I remember one time, like, a famous wrestler on TV on WCW, he put me in a hold and it like some blood vessels behind my eyes popped.

And I had to wear sunglasses to my prom. And that was kind of fun. Because you went to Killer Kowalski's. Did like Triple H go, ah, I trained there too, like no. One of us.

No, I mean, no, like, and nor, you know what, and I wouldn't have wanted that. Because like,

like, I have a weird thing as a, as a pro where, and people say, oh, like, you should politic more. I never wanted to because,

and that may have been my own ego to, we're like, look, like I try to be, a decent human being, you know, don't do anything that's going to embarrass the company, show up to work and like let that speak for itself. And like, if I have to lower myself as a man or as a human, like, I'm not willing to do that. And, you know, when I was at that point where I said, like, I couldn't look in the mirror for about 18 months. Eventually that 18 months ended and

when I could look in the mirror, I was like, all right, cool, because had I gone the other route, I just wouldn't have felt, like, for the rest of my life. Like, I would have felt like I did the wrong thing. And, like, I don't, so, like, people saw it my career. It should have been this. It should have been that. And, like, everyone has their take on, on whatever.

But, no, at the end of the day, my career was what it was. I made the choices I made, and I stand by them. And, like, I'm fortunate enough to where I have developed a skill set. um that if i want a job in pro wrestling i can get one and and and i'm like right now i am completely where i want to be i feel like i where i need to be it's great because it's this uh it's definitely like again we don't say the word family but like we don't have to because and if you ask anyone that's kind of been around us or been to an nWA show they're like whoa like you guys you know from everybody and um and we we succeed together as a team um um

you know and uh that's what we just want to keep doing more of because like the show is kind of gotten its got in its soul now as i say when you say that you made these decisions and you stand by them a lot of those decisions were made for you though there were a lot of things that like happened without your control and you just do you just go well those are also things that i just have to accept well those are byproducts of the decisions i was or wasn't making okay to kind of you know, endear yourself to certain people, shall we say, right? Do you think you could have pushed, and, you know, we can't play a game of what if, but could you have pushed or politic to go, nobody's ever tried to cash in and not won the championship?

I'm not going to be that guy. I could have, but in the long run, it would have been futile. You had to look at the bigger picture. we were going up against Monday night football in the World Series, I believe. And like, look, as a performer, right? Like I, no matter what anyone says, right? And like I said, the internet's an interesting place now in 2023. And I've really, for the most part, been extremely blessed of the feedback I've gotten from the internet fans.

And just like fans in general. Yeah. Um, not to get off subject again, but like when, like, I walk into a store and someone recognizes me and because I really kind of don't look like Sandow anymore, um, but like, you're my so-and-so's favorite wrestler and they don't even watch wrestling. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that compliment because that's like, I all, I want to appeal to everybody. Like I, like, wrestling fans, if they see me, like, one way or another, like, they are getting everything I have, whether it's a promo, a match, like,

I am putting every ounce of energy I have into that performance every single night. Yeah. And the non-wrestling fan, that, or it just happens to be flipping through the channels or happens to be at a show, if you can kind of make them go, ooh, you know, that is the cool thing, because that's how you attract more and more people. And it's better for the business that way. So, like, I try to appeal to, like, some element, right?

Like, if I can hit upon something in the human condition that it essentially is your broader audience, which is everybody, you know, that that's better for everybody. So like I'm not trying to work for like a criticism. You know, like again, don't want to get into star ratings. I mean, we will if you want to. But like people are entitled to opinions and it's wonderful. But the magic of pro wrestling, it is just disappearing. And you know what? Like when people, they can say what they want to say about NWA,

but like if you do not allow magic to happen or the room for magic to happen, when you are so scripted to where every single word is laid out, and you're so worried about the opinion of one or two people, like judging you based on acrobatics, and you know, you're, you're so worried about the people in the ring, right? And the people that are behind the scenes that, and you're not worried about the people buying tickets. Like when you're more worried about the people inside of the ring than outside of the ring, there's an issue. And philosophically at NWA, like, no, like we are about the people outside the ring.

And there are numerous opportunities for talent to exercise freedom that they would not be granted elsewhere. And like that's what we try to push, right? And by we, I mean, you know, everybody there are like the people that have been doing this a minute. And in Billy himself, like grab those opportunities and create some magic. Like whether it's you make them fall in love with you as a character or you create this moment. and if you're not the most popular character, you have at least created something to where they go, ooh, okay, and you're that much more recognizable.

And there is such a difference. And I, like, I've done a couple seminars. And because when people agreed to like, okay, I'm not teaching moves, like this is going to be more of a psychological thing, presentation thing. Like, and I've coined the phrase, like, we are not wrestlers who are on TV.

If you are, okay, you won't be over. You'll be just like everyone else and kick pads and tights with hologram, flashy things on them that look cool and whatever. And you'll do your match and they'll go ooh and ah if you hit a move. And then they'll bring the next match out and they'll forget about you because they'll see something else. So that's a wrestler on TV. We need to be TV stars who wrestle. Now, when I say that, that does not negate, like, because here's another thing, and this is, this is a virus plaguing the wrestling industry today.

There's a lot of people who are borderline untrained. And by that, there was a basic skeleton of, like, what you had to have at the minimum to be able to, like, to get in the business and get opportunities and major companies. And like the standard across the board, right, has fallen extremely low. And again, I'm not trying to criticize. Like, there's a few amazing schools out there. Like, like, again, like, OVW is still there. You know, like the people, again, EC3, like his camp going on, Exodus Pro, right?

Like, there's people doing it. Um, and would NWA, you know, on, on one level, like, like the territory system, it's like, we want to help bring the standard up again of like what wrestling is because the true art of this, the storytelling, right? The, the, who is this guy? Who is this girl? Who is this character that I'm looking at, right? As opposed to, oh, wrestling, what are they going to do?

Like, I ever told you about, um, there's three positions. And this is something that, like, I teach the seminar, so I'm sure it'll be stolen from me, but it's fine. Three positions people watch wrestling in. Okay. Position number one. And this is, like, consume any product in, really, right? Like, any entertainment. Position number one, we're going to make believe I have a cell phone.

Okay. That's position number one. You're casually watching it. Yeah. It's back. It's like, whatever, okay. Position two. Okay.

You're actively watching. Okay. Yes. You have a rooting interest. Like you're engaged in position three is up. up out of your seat, having some kind of emotional expression. Like, oh, that happened. Oh, no, right?

Like, that's like the finish of a match. Three positions. We want position two and ultimately three, right? So how do we keep rooting interest? It's how we dress. When we come through the curtain, what colors do we wear? How do we walk? What do we do when they first see us?

You know, and like these are things that, At NWA, where we're starting to instill to try to train people to not only be good television wrestlers, but really be good professional wrestlers in general because there's not much difference between working a live crowd and TV in terms of, look, look, when you work TV, yes, you have to be conscious of where the cameras are. But in terms of your timing, in terms of like letting people appreciate what you're doing as an artist. Yeah.

you know, there's that there's that element that's missing, right? And so that's again, like, say what you want about NWA and it's funny, more people are talking about us. More people are getting on board, which is cool now. Like our live events have been like really successful to the point of world. We're all like, wow, like ever since, you know,

we've hit a certain point. We're just like, you know, trying to keep all the, all the good stuff going, as we say. And again, learning as a company, having fun, and just trying to present a true alternative and kind of fill in the void of what a lot of us think is missing in wrestling. I feel like we all knew how talented you were

when we saw Damien Sandow. But Damien Mizdao, I feel like, took it to a whole new level because that's an opportunity. I think that if it was given to anybody else, they would have fumbled it. You took that and you ran with it and then you got more over than the guy who you were with.

Well, no, I mean, and I think like there was no Mizzed out without Mizz, right? And like, if I didn't have a subject to base my satire on, right? Like I wouldn't have had that. So like, that's testament to like the timing Mizz and I had.

And Mizz and I are, You know, I say we're friends. Yeah, like we haven't really talked or anything. But like if we saw each other, it would be cool. Like there'd be a, what's up, man? And like we came up in OVW and stuff. And out there, though, like we just, we had timing about it. Because that's all that was, was like, you know,

Ms. doing his thing and then allowing me to do my thing. And then going into it, you know, he was very, very cool about it. And like our best moments were not discussed. Truly. They weren't. Like, we didn't talk about them. Like, we just, like, they happened organically. Did you tell him you were going to start taking bumps on the outside of the ring?

No, that was born out of boredom. I was on wrong. Like, why am I doing here? But the thing was, right? Like, I had the thing happen with the briefcase. And then, okay, they start, like, giving me what I thought was a push. Then two weeks later, I'm dressing up as different people. All right.

Whatever. here we go. I embrace that. They put me with Ms. The only reason Ms. Dow worked is because I was on television consistently. And if you put me in a role consistently on television, right? Yeah. Like if I go to any company, like any owner of any company, right?

And I would say this now. Like, and I can say this with, I hope this does not sound braggadocious. or whatever, but like this is just based on kind of my calculations. Yeah, hey, don't be humble for a second. No, no, but based on the knowledge I've acquired, yeah, if you give me 30 seconds for three to four weeks,

yeah, I will be able to get myself over. Yeah, no problem. If you give me 60 seconds, we'll be selling T-shirts. Wow. Because there is an art to how you do this. right and um now again that's 30 seconds of like i i would need some creative freedom in there sure um but like like wrestling shouldn't be hard because it isn't hard and i think now um where developmental systems are great but in the more kind of under a microscope

developmental because i've been in both and i've been involved in both like i had never learned more in OVW when I had got to like sit under learning trees I did there and um you know OVW like I'm a Kowalski guy and I will always like that that is who broke me in that is who gave me my break um you know again uh Mike Hollow who is the head trainer at Kowalskis um he I I guess has a wrestling school up in New Hampshire and if anyone's in the Northeast like dare I say like I would recommend going to my school, Mike had a very big hand in like laying my foundation to work technically. I knew how to bump. I knew how to feed.

And then like OVW, like I just learned it was psychology on a completely different level to be around the people and to actually work a territory. You know, to actually go and have spot shows and do angles on TV and have to KFAB, like we couldn't be seen together out in public. And it was just really cool. And then, you know, again, like the Paul Hamas of the world coming in and taken over. And it was just one thing led to another. But like, and I know he's controversial.

And people, they give him, you know, whatever shade they want to sling his way, right? But bottom line, like Jim Cornett taught me, I would say, damn near 50% of everything that I know about the business today. Wow. And it was just like it wasn't like I was having these like in-depth conversations with him every single night. No. Working for him. Like like the first time you ever do an angle on TV and you have to take it around the horn to a house show.

Like what what do people want to see? Right. And that's just like where the like the finer points of ring psychology come in that God, they get lost today. And it's so sad to where like as a heel. If you've told this story and a baby face is just like, you don't have to do anything but just back up and let it happen. Like let the crowd happen because you'll get yours at some point, you know? It's like people trying to cram five pounds of rocks in a two pound bag.

And by rocks, you know, like that expression is usually, you know, something other than rock. Yeah. But like, that's what it is, right? And just like, remember it's about the people outside the ring, not the people inside the ring. And I'm sorry, you've asked a question and we have gone off on a table. I love it. But like, yeah, it's.

I think a lot of people don't remember the time that Cody Rhodes spent with you. Yeah, yeah. Road Scholars. Yeah. Did you see the Cody that we have now? Did you see that 10 years ago? Oh, yeah. No.

I mean, Cody and I, we were a very, I would say like in terms of the the totality of wrestling like we're a very underrated tag team yeah if you look at what we did in the matches we've had with various people and we did it like we tagged for a minute and like we travel together and stuff and it was

tag team champions yeah did we ever win the time didn't you I don't know I don't know I don't think I don't think I don't I think we did. Let me see. But like, Ms. and I did. That's maybe what I'm thinking of. But, but no, like, like, Cody, he has always, always, uh, had a drive and a determination about him. And I'm just very, very glad that he has, uh, he's kind of like reached. You won the tag team contender, number one contender tournament with Cody. Ah, okay. There.

We were going to get corrected in the comments anyway. Exactly. But no, like I'm just very, very happy he's determined. And again, taking the risk that he has and staying true to who he is. And I think that's just wonderful because like when you see someone stay true to who they are, you know, whatever that truth is. Because like only they can define it. But they kind of reach, you know, the apex of what they would like to be. That's awesome.

So to bring this around full circle, five years ago when we had our last full conversation, you had both feet firmly planted in the acting world. As we sit here right now, are both feet firmly planted in the pro wrestling world? No, I'm straddling. Okay. You know, I'm straddling. There's like, there's a couple things going on. Like I had a, a movie that is going to be out.

I think it's, is it? No, no, I'm sorry. It's next week it comes out. I was going to actually. What movie is it? It's called the oath. I was going to go to the premiere, but travel-wise, like, it just didn't line up. But it's got Billy Zane in it.

It's wonderful. Great. You know, Billy Zane was really cool to work with. It was like, he was one of those guys. So, like, this is the first movie I did after the pandemic, right? So this is like 20, 21. And we're filming in upstate New York. And I am Billy Zane's assassin.

Like his, like... You played a lot of bad guys. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I dig it. That's why the black thing works for me. So I'm in the makeup chair with him, and we're kicking it, and he could not be cooler, which I was just like, because, like, again, you think, like, right?

Okay, like, there's wrestling people, which I don't care. I'm actually very comfortable in front of wrestling people, but, like, Hollywood people, like, what's the deal, right? So, like, you're playing in someone else's sandbox. Sure. So I'm just kind of going on whatever vibe, right? but uh but he's cool what's that man so like we um

we start talking and um just some of the advice he gave me it was uh it was just good and a lot of it it's funny because again how you present yourself it was very very similar to like advice i get people in terms of how to present themselves on TV right and in in life right we we don't want to admit it sometimes but like when when we

see somebody as humans, we, we have to make up our minds. Like there's this quick, like survival assessment. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And there's that primal function that goes on in the brain as you see somebody, whether they're a wrestler or like, whatever, right?

Like a apology, anyone that's getting ready to speak. When they come up and you see them. Yep. You go, hmm. Yep. And then you make up your mind. Yes. So how do we do that?

Like, there's a reason I chose the Holo lullia chorus because everyone knows that song and it is obnoxious to come down to it so like that says volumes about me without me having to do anything and um and it was like all done you know very kind of symbiotically you think about this on such a deep level yeah because like and here's the thing well like with wrestlers like it's wrestling has this uh no it's we've we've done we've done a total of four interviews together really just one long one but one is dame and Sandow, the character. We just pulled that up before we had played on this interview.

And you were signing autographs and you got somebody access with a big feather pen. I love that thing. Then we did an interview where I spoke with Aaron. We just chatted. And then there was an interview with you in question mark and you remained in character. And you were saying, Katate. I mean, you were deep into that character.

And then the world shut down. Yeah. That was crazy how, and like I thought what a first kind of like, like the first chapter in the the lightning one era of n wa so it was like from the inception of it to like the pandemic yeah um that was january of 2020 so like little did we know what was going to happen 60 days later yeah not even 50 days later yes right um and uh like that that had just happened organically um to where he had the the question mark character and he and he and i were sitting down in the bleachers and he's asked me so what should we do and and he was a friend of

mine so I was very excited to be working with him yeah and um I'm like you need to become a karate master what I go yeah and like because the reason the question mark worked right okay like well like I love it what all it just catches on and it's it's working like no there's a reason things happen there's a reason people react to certain people a certain way. Yeah. You just have to kind of dig a little bit. And the reason the question mark character works so well,

if you looked at what the NWA was, right? And it's associated with, you know, the wrestling. And when I say that, we all know what I'm talking about. It's that old Southern style, you know, you got good guy, bad guy, you know, good versus evil, here we go. And like, it just, it is what it is. is, right? The question mark embodied, he was like the personification of that era, right, physically. Like, like, when you looked at him aesthetically, like his tights, those tights were

actually like Lawler's old tights, I was told. Like, he got him from Tony Falk or something and Tony Fogg got him from Lawler. And Lawler had a pair of tight similar to that. I mean, they had like the old knee pads sewn in like the old school, like K&H stuff, which is like, if you know what K&H is, you're a real wrestling fan. And if you don't, well, Hey, you know, sorry about it. But like, so there was that. So then what we had to do, like, we had to take that authenticity. Yeah.

On the outside and bring a level of authenticity inside, right? So like there was, like the execution of this character would match, right? And then, you know, when you have the execution of it and the performance of it meets the, right, I say execution. meets the, you know, the aesthetics of it. When you kind of have that, that's when you can really kind of bloom on TV, right? Like the rock have, stone cold, right? Sure. Like, Damien Sandow had it.

But no, I mean, it's just like, yeah, like any of us, right, that have kind of, like with you, right? Like, you branded yourself a certain way, right? Like, there are certain aesthetics associated with Chris Vanley. Sure. And that's just marketing. That's just how, right? Like, that's just the game. that that's the game we're in that's the business we're in um so i was like hey jen you need

you need to be a karate master like what like yeah like old school 1970s 1980s you you come from a far way land and they're bringing you in to work dusty like they're going to build you up for six months and you're going to have this hold like the montrovingian spike and uh well we we originally said mongolia and then like it was billy's idea he's like Mongrovia, we're going to create a country. And then the question mark's brother created the flag. And then from the flag, like we were born a race of karate practicing people with question mark max on.

And like it was just this weird bizarre thing that like, like when they say too many cooks can spoil the broth. Sure. The right combination of cooks, though, can make it awesome. You know what I mean? like when everyone kind of brings their thing to it. And man, like, that was just so much fun with him. And I, you know, I've lost people close to me, like, way more than I'd like to.

And, you know, God, this last year alone. But when he passed, it was, like, it hit hard. And it's still, to this day, at NWA like we hang the Mongrobian flag like you have all the flags of the world and everything and then there's like the Mongrovian flag

and that's just kind of like like that's our little tribute to like the spirit of what that was and that and that is what NWA is right like where we want that magic to happen and again like you know everything is trial and error but man when something hits

And like, and we say it all the time, right? I say we collectively, everybody at NWA, when pro wrestling is done correctly, there's nothing like it in the world. And no matter who you are. Where did you start seeing the rumors that you were tied into the Elias storyline? Oh, yeah, because again, like,

I just don't watch really. Yeah. I watch enough NWA. Like, people were hitting me up on Instagram and stuff to enough to where I was like, looking into them like oh all right i mean you know like the truth is i haven't had any contact with um anyone from w w v since i left um i have not reached out to them and and like my life is really cool right now and um and again like you never say never but like i just like i can't see myself going back there and doing anything um like i i think they were a again like a part of my life that i i'm very grateful

before. But at the same time, like, when, when you just felt like you're, you're on other things, right? Like, you have other mountains to climb. Yeah. Um, you know, at some point, maybe they'll be part of that mountain, right? Um, like, maybe you take a detour, but, um, but they're part of a journey that's happened like this, it's already, it's something you've already done. Yeah. And, and, and again, like, this isn't like, I'm not sitting here, like, ruling out, like, No, because look, if circumstances line up, you end up anywhere. Sure. Like, I can end up working for New Japan at the certain, but I doubt we'd see that.

This would be a great Royal Rumble return. Yeah, I mean, right now, like, I'm under contract with NWA and, and there's, you know, like, like, to a point, right, as much as a performer can because I don't want to, like, undying loyalty, like, I'm kind of fighting for some, like, religious cause here or anything like that. No, like, but as much as a performer can, and I say this, and I say that with all sincerity, like there is a loyalty level. And there's like, like, I never thought I would have that loyalty level again, you know? Yeah.

And like once, once like my loyalty goes, like via, you know, person or company, I'm fine with like maintaining a cordial relationship. relationship with whatever. And then you should, right? You should, like for for just leading a healthy life. Like that's a thing. But in terms of me saying like, okay, like you're like you're my people now. Like you're, you're in my my circle. Um, you know, I just circumstances have dictated that like, like I care about a lot of people in that company. Like I want to see them succeed. Yeah. Um, and that's, you know, someone who has been kind of selfish, um, business wise, has, much as I have to be, I guess, in terms of the amount of thought I put into other people, right? I want to see everybody succeed, but like, like, I don't really go out of my way

to help a lot of people. And some, again, some asked for it, and I do. And it's been very rewarding. And, you know, you want to see them develop not only as performers, but as human beings because like like anything else right like any business there's a there's a shady side like you know a dark side of the ring and um which you know a lot of those documentaries are are pretty eye-opening i think to the public um and um yeah it's just like you want to just leave the business better than when you found it sure yeah you've mentioned the word gratitude so many times throughout this conversation and that's where i always end every interview. By the way, good to catch up with you. Oh, it's been great. Yes.

Like, you've been a long time. Family and like, I know I already told you, but thank you. I'm telling you in our little online personas, congratulations, Chris. Yes. Thank you, sir. All my best of the missus. She's great. The little girl's great. It's hard to be away from. It really is. She's six months old right now. I'm super grateful for them. And gratitude's a big part of my life. At the end of every interview now, I ask my guess, what are three things that you're grateful for in You're alive. Oh, well, health number one. Yeah. God. I'm really lucky when it comes to health. You know, family, because I've had this, like, period where I've, like,

reconnected with my family in a lot of ways, and that's cool. And, like, the ability that all of us have, for my third thing, to be able to go forward in the midst of whatever circumstances we're in. And I know we, like, we've touched upon that. Like, I've, I hope. this interview wasn't too dark, but like, like, kind of like periods of my life that, um, you know, as you kind of like fluctuate, right? I actually think that through you saying that, a lot of people that are dealing with stuff

go, yeah, it's okay to deal with it. I'll be, I'll get out, I'll be okay on the other side of it. Yes, and you will, right? It's just, it's how you have to choose to fight. Like, you have to remember who you are. So that's all. What a great way to end it. Yeah. Aaron, so good to see you. Likewise, I hope to do it again. We will. Yeah. Oh, there we go, my friends. There is just a lot that goes into the thought process that he has behind everything that he does on screen and everything that he does in the ring. I love it. Such a pleasure to be able to catch up with Aaron Stevens and be able to talk about all the work that he's done over the last. It's been five years since he was on the show last. If you enjoy this, please share it out on social media. Tag us so we can share it as well. He's at the Aaron Files on Instagram. He's at Aaron's thoughts on Twitter. I'm at Chris. fan fleet. And what a quote from Lucille Ball. I'd rather regret the things I've done

than the things I haven't done. Be great, be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today.

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