Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Dark Side of the Ring co-creators Evan Husney and Jason Eisener

Episode Date: May 7, 2021

Dark Side of the Ring airs on Vice and takes an in-depth look at some of the most memorable and controversial stories in the world of pro wrestling. Co-creators Evan Husney and Jason Eisener join Chris Van Vliet to talk about season 3 of the show. They discuss some of the most memorable episodes including Brian Pillman, Chris Benoit, The Montreal Screwjob, Owen Hart, and others, where they came up with the idea for the show, how they pitched it to Vice, how Covid changed their production plans, making their reenactments look so good, the films they worked on before and much more! If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.   For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com   Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, y'all? It's Druski, and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Do Zone with Drusky. Learn the backstories of your favorite ballers and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around that time? Come on, bro. I ain't that old, Phil.

You're talking like I was 50. Taylor, Rokes, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to the Doozone with Drusky on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. How are you, my friends? And welcome back to another. audio adventure here on Insight. I'm Chris Van Fleet, and thank you so much for joining us.

Actually, thank you so much for joining us each and every episode. And if this happens to be your first time here, make sure to hit subscribe or follow so you don't miss out on any future episodes. And man, what an episode we have for you today. After the premiere of Season 3 of Dark Side of the Ring last night, it only seems fitting to talk to the brilliant minds behind the show. show, the co-creators, Evan Husney, and Jason Eisner. And if you're listening to this right now, I'm guessing you've seen at least one episode of the show. Or if you're like a lot of fans,

you've probably binged every episode of the show. So I don't have to tell you how fantastic this show is. But if by some chance you haven't watched an episode of Dark Side of the Ring yet, do it immediately. Go on YouTube and watch literally any episode. from any season. It is phenomenal storytelling. Oh, it's so good. Take a screenshot. Let us know that you're listening to this one.

If you want, tag us on social media. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Evan is at Evan Husney, H-U-S-N-E-Y. Jason is at Jason Eisner. That's E-I-S-E-N-E-R. Also tag Dark Side of the Ring. Why not? J-C-D-O-E-8 left this review on Apple.

podcast that says CVV, you're the best. Hey, CVV, hope you're having a good one. Well, I am having a good one. I hope that you are as well. Your show really helps me get through the day with your awesome interviews. I work as a delivery driver, and your show really helps the day go by so much quicker with your interesting conversations. Hope you reach your goals by your birthday. Mine is on May 22nd. Keep up the awesome work. You're the best. No, you, sir. You sir are the best. And happy. early birthday to you. Yeah, as you mentioned, I have a goal. May 19th is my birthday, and the goal was 2,000 reviews is 2,000 reviews before my birthday, May 19th. So I'm going to keep reading one review on every single episode. We're getting so close to 2,000 reviews. So thank you

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What a Vader time hat, Evan. This is amazing. Oh, thanks, man. This is some real. Guys, thank you. And congratulations, season three. I mean, there's not a lot of new ideas in the world of wrestling, and somehow you guys have figured this out. So, congratulations to you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Can you take me inside what the pitch meeting was like when you were pitching this show device. Oh, man, it was, uh, it was actually a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. It was one of those pitch meetings where everything kind of was clicking and, and everyone was having fun in terms of,

you know, looking back at wrestling and 80s wrestling and like I actually remember that like it went so well. I was like, I could have just elbow dropped, you know, the table and went right through it and would have totally fit the tone of the pitch meeting. Um, No, it was great. Like, I think everyone was really excited about it and saw that, whoa, this is like a world, like, you know, that there's a lot that needs to, or can be explored. And it sort of felt like, because it was like right around the time like tales from the

tour bus had come out, you know, that show that, that Mike Judge does about, or he, you know, that he had done about the road life of the country music stars, you know, and this kind of wild sex drugs and rock and roll lifestyle, you know, of that back in the 60s and 70s. And so, you know, this is like that, but wrestling. And it's like, you know, it's got the territory side. It's got the K-Fabe side. It's got all this stuff.

And so I think that it just really, you know, seemed to click. That being said, it's still a process to get a budget approved and get the money and get off to the races. So, you know, it took some hurdles to get to that point eventually. But the original pitch meeting was a lot of fun. Because Jason, and I'm sure you can agree with this, when TV execs here wrestling, they go, oh, I don't know. I don't know about that. How do you sell them on this?

Well, it's funny to say that because originally, Evan and I, years ago, before we made Dark Side of the Ring, we wanted to make, like, a narrative scripted series of the wrestling, like, basically the wrestling territory days, you know? And we, like, we went to Hollywood with, like, a pitch that was like, you know, it's kind of like the sopranos of, like, the wrestling world. And that just went over every, every, like, studio execs head.

Like, every time we mentioned wrestling, it just, like, they just toned out of it. So we thought, man, like, we've done all this research and have all this energy and we really want to, like, tell wrestling stories in a cinematic way. And then we applied it to this idea of Dark Side of the Ring. And this is, you know, we get to tell these stories,

you know, in a documentary format. And then, you know, maybe someday we'll get to take some of them to the big screen. Yeah. Jason, for anybody who's watching on YouTube right now, what video game is this behind you? Oh, that's my, it's my Street Fighter 2 cabinet. Oh, not as cool. Street Fighter 2.

Not as cool as my Street Fighter cabinet. Oh, my God. Oh, this is amazing. Yeah. I actually have Russell Fest in there right now, but it is originally a Street Fighter cabinet. Yeah. Very nice.

Yeah, when Evan and I were like touring on the road, like, making the show, we would stop off at every hour. arcade we could and just challenge each other at Street Fighter. And like that was kind of our way to like unwind. All right. Evan, who's the go. Who's the go to street fighter character for you? Belrog, 100%.

Okay. Jason? Yeah. Mine's Ken. Okay. Mine's trying to leave because I can cheap with the kick. She's very good. She's one of the top characters in most street fighter games.

Yeah. What were you guys best known for doing before Dark Side of the Ring hit? Jason, go. You got to go in that one. I guess I made a movie. My first feature film was called Hobo with a shotgun, which was like this crazy genre

action movie starring Rugg or Hauer. Yeah, that's probably what I was most known for. So filmmaking, basically. Yeah, yeah. Worked on a bunch of films. I made a couple anthologies. I worked with Jay Bereshaal and making Goon 2.

And I work with Adam Wingard on the Netflix Death Note movie. and, you know, currently still, we're still developing. Evan and I have been developing movie projects for a couple years that we're hoping to do. A couple years. A couple years. Many years. Decades now.

Yeah. And then for me, I kind of bounced around a lot in the film industry. When Jason and I met, which is probably like 11 or 12 years ago now, I was actually in film distribution. So I worked at a lot of different companies, like re-releasing cult movies. like more or less so if you've heard of this crazy movie called birdemic you know I found that movie or a movie called Miami Connection I also had a hand in finding that and re-releasing it so like a lot of older weirder bizarro movies that I've unearthed and then from there I actually went I worked for the Alamo

draft house for draft house films I started that a film distribution company and we released a couple of really awesome movies and then from there I found advice and then starting advice I started producing documentaries little documentary projects for the YouTube channel there advice and then wanted to do something with wrestling so bad because that was such a huge part of my childhood and I know it was for Jason too so we just tried to dream up we had this opportunity like you know we could make stuff advice let's do something with wrestling but it took a while until it was like something that until the tv channel vices tv channel really started where there you know there would be the budget to do something

like a wrestling show of some kind. So that's kind of how it all came together too. What I think is so fascinating about Dark Side of the Ring is a lot of these stories have been told before, like the Montreal Screwjob, for example, it's been told before or what happened with Chris Benoit. But the way that you guys have done it, it's like you've unearthed new information. Like, how is this even possible? Well, you know, like when, specifically with the Montreal Screwjob one,

it was like, you know, back in the beginning of this show, we didn't have the name Dark Side of the Ring. We just knew it was going to be this kind of like, you know, wrestling doc series that we wanted to cover all the controversies, all the big stories, but we really wanted to turn on broader audiences to this world and to bring them into the fold, have them be just as riveted and, and excited about these stories as we are. And at the time, we were like, well, the Montreal Screw Job is such a great entry point for a non-restling fan to, like, get into. to understand the inner workings of the company. Understand K Fave, the championship, the backstage politics, all that stuff.

But also it came from like Jason and I just really wanting to see wrestling, like wrestling covered, you know, because most of the times you're watching shoot interviews on YouTube up until that point. And it's all like, you know, some guy with a, like a high eight camera, you know, at a Radisson hotel room, which is cool. I still can get down with that, you know, for sure. but it'd be cool if you took this because all the interviews are incredible those those you know the wrestlers are incredible storytellers right so if you could take that and just elevate it and so we brought a lot of our documentary film influences and just combined that with wrestling like what if errol morris you know who did thin blue line in the fog of war like what if he like covered wrestling you know and that was kind of like the dream at the time was like let's just take it and elevate it to as much as possible not only are the reenactments like incredibly well done but you feel find people that look exactly like, like, exactly like the wrestlers. How do you do this?

Well, we shoot the show in Toronto, and there's luckily, like, a few, like, independent wrestling, like, crews there. And so we reach out to them and we work, you know, closely with them and their rosters. And then it's also, you know, just kind of searching on, like, Instagram, like, Toronto gyms. And, like, really, like, we're trying to just. match like the silhouette, you know, because the effect of shooting all in slow motion and kind of the noir vibe of it where everyone's like backlit. And in wrestling, like, you know, once you just

see like a character like Hulk Hogan or like Macho Man Randy Savage or The Undertaker, you know, these characters, like you, if you just saw the oat line of them and the silhouette, you know who they are. So, you know, it's funny. Like, it looks cool with the slow motion and out of focus, but like we're cheating a lot. And if you were to like flick on the lights of the studio, it would just look really weird. We'd be laughed out of the, yeah. Okay.

I'm sure a lot of it's done with great lighting and costuming and wigs. But if we did turn on the lights in the studio, who would look the most like the person they're trying to look like? And who would you be like, oh, my God, that's not, not even close. Well, I mean, I think the one that comes to mind for me is from season one with, you know, macho man, Randy Savage, which, you know, which was kind of scary. actually how much when he had all the gimmick on and he's got all the all the stuff on and it was like wow i actually remember showing that footage when we filmed it to to to to bruce pritchard and like just check

out this randy guy and he's like oh my god that's terrifying that is randy and it was really when we were at when we were at russomania uh i can't remember which one it was one in one the last one in new orleans we were there and yeah you went up right jason to get like a drinker i was like i went i think i went to the bathroom or something and then i came back out and threw like the sea of people. I see this guy. It looks just like Randy. And I was like, oh my God.

Like it's like literally like the ghosts of Randy like walking the halls here and everyone's trying to get a picture with him. And it's a cosplaying. Yeah, it was cosplaying. I was at that Russellman. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah.

His name is Brandon Savage. You can find him on Instagram. And that's how we found him. Like I went up to him and I took my phone and I flipped it in a slow motion and I put it in some lady's hand. And we did this shot with me and him. And I just wanted to see it with the. of the slow motion and I ran it out to Evan out into the in the stadium and I was like

dude I found him like I've got our like Randy and then we found him on Instagram and then you know brought us to Toronto and that was in the beginning too when we like kind of didn't really have everything figured out you know of like how we were going to pull all this off like we wanted to do that Randy story the Randy and the Randy and miss Elizabeth story we really wanted to do it but it was kind of like man that means you know we'd already done the the bruce of Brody pilot at that time, but it was like, man, we're going to have to find somebody to play Randy, and that's going to be really hard. And then all of a sudden, this gift from the wrestling gods emerges. And it was even better because his wife, who was so cool, she made all, remade all those

costumes. So he came with all the costumes. So it was like a perfect deal. Yeah, it was great. All right. So on the flip side of it, who is it that you go? Oh, there's been a couple close calls. I think at the last second where I'm trying to put a Rick Flair wig on we'll figure this out there's been times where like we've had to like alter fate like get chin like add chin pieces onto people

or add nose pieces onto people just because it's like you know it's really hard to find like that particular very unique face there's been times where we've had to throw ourselves in there because someone that hasn't shown up that's right where would we find Jason or

Evan in a reenact. A lot of places. I played McFoly in the Herb Abrams episode. I could see that. Okay. Yep. Evan, you played Rick Mercer and the Gino Hernandez. Well, I played Jimmy.

I played Jimmy Hard. Let's not. Just breeze over that. Yeah. I don't look anything like Jimmy Hart. So that is probably the best example because when he, when Jason, you told me, you know, we're casting you as Jimmy Hart. I had no choice in the matter.

And it was basically like, all right, we'll see how. that works and then and then they it's like it's it's really interesting i can send you a photo of it but it's like they they when they put the wig on and they kind of drew all of the facial hair on me and then obviously you have the sunglasses and just suit and they made the that amazing uh you know because it was when he was managing dino bravo and there was all that you know flirtily on the on the on the suit and everything once you gimmick it all up i mean you really can it just goes to show how iconic wrestlers were in in that time period that you know like Like, it's just, it's amazing how iconic it is.

Now it's like, if we're like, okay, we need a Randy Orton. Like, you got to get really specific. Yeah. You know, because it's about the shape of the guy and then this. But back then those, those costumes are just, they read as. Yeah. So if you bring in a guy who is not a wrestler, just a bodybuilder, you found him at a local gym, and you tell him, all right, you got to jump off the middle rope or you got to,

how do you describe a wrestling move to him? That's, we don't nest. We don't throw them really deep into the ring. Although, like, we had this guy who just played John. Johnny K-9 for one of our upcoming episodes. And he had never wrestled before. And he was like a strong man in Montreal. And he's huge.

Incredible. But I wanted to just get some shots of him in the ring. I wanted to get him just like body slamming somebody. And so luckily we had like other wrestlers there that could like walk him through it. And this wrestler literally just like ran into his arms and performed a body slam without the guy even like doing anything. but when I when you saw the look like I wouldn't have known that like when you see the look of this guy's face like when he did it for the first time in the ring like he just lost his mind I think like I wouldn't be surprised if he's home right now trying to figure out if he can get like a wrestling career going yeah and I was forgive me if I'm misremembering but was Rimo who played animal was he a wrestler he wasn't no he was no okay that's what I thought so When we got the, we did the road warriors the last season, you know, Rob Raged, this guy in Toronto played, played Hawk. And then we had, Remo, he's just, he's an actor, right?

Yeah. Or, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and then we, we put them together. And so, you know, like, Hawk had to show Animal how to do, you know, because we wanted some clothes lines and, you know, some certain things. So, so, you know, but you have to be very careful because obviously, you know, they're not trained, but, you know, the wrestlers can help them through, uh, getting it through there. But it is a lot of fun. And, you know, there's been many times where we've jumped in there and, you know,

done stupid stuff to each other for sure. Wrestling is all about the connections that you make. So I'm really curious to know who helped you guys out the most in connecting you with everybody you needed. Man, really good question. So many people, you know, from the very beginning, it's like when we did the Bruce Brody episode as our pilot, having like Dutch Mantel, like he was, you know, an incredible resource and just help.

We help so much with that episode and other episodes in the season. And he narrated the first season for us. But Barbara Goodish, we have so much, Bruiser Brody's wife, Barbara Goodish. We have to thank her so much. Because really, like, when we wanted to tell that story, like, the very first episode, like, we knew we had to have Barbara on board for it. And so she was, like, kind of like, the first to, like, you know, be the first one to kind of check us out and kind of, you know, and trust us.

And then from there, like, people have so much respect for Brewzer Brody and for Barbara in the business today that, like, you know, we would contact wrestlers and they would be on the fence and then they'd call Barbara. And Barbara would give her okay. And then they would tell us it's cool, you know. And that happened a lot in the beginning stages of making the show. like Barbara really, you know, vetted for us and we owe her so much. Totally. And even in season two, like, I mean, we had to call Barbara a few times.

It was like, I remember, you know, Dr. D. David Schultz, you know, uh, now, you know, a good friend of the show, but at the time was very, who are these guys that want to come out to my house and tell my story and, you know, these other guys I'm going to have to slap, you know, uh, but no, no, he, uh, you know, he got some, he got cold feet at one point, but the respect.

that he has for Brody and there's and especially Barbara. I mean, that runs so deep, you know, because those guys are, you know, they're all from that generation, like the generation almost, you know, one generation ahead removed of the WWF kind of era, you know, so, so that was just, you know, again, she came to the rescue and made it all happen.

And yeah, she's just, she's kind of the, she's just the best, yeah. And obviously, you know, and there's been others along the way. I mean, Jim Ross, I think about is a guy who has helped us, you know, You know, in terms of like, you know, Steve Austin coming on board for, you know, season three. And, you know, so there's a lot. There's a lot of folks in the in the business who, I mean, I think the Martha Hart, you know,

Owen Hart episode has been a huge calling card too. Just her being on that show has helped us a lot in a lot of ways. So there's just been tons, tons of folks. What's also the fact that you can say this is on vice, which is a, you know, something people have actually heard of. If you say, hey, we're making this documentary project for my YouTube channel, they kind of go, Oh, yeah. Okay.

I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. At least now there's the other, our first episodes. You know, even when we had the pilot, the Bruce of Brody pilot, that became so helpful for us, too. Like, we met Chavo Guerrero by, you know, like gained his trust by showing him that episode. And he saw how we, you know, told Brody's story.

And he thought that we, you know, we're good storytellers. and people that he wanted to connect with to help tell the Crispin-Wa story. So, yeah, the Brody, the Brody, it's amazing that we started off with Bruiser Brody because it really, there's so many times along the way making this show that it always comes back to him. And, you know, I don't know. He's a spirit animal of the show for sure. He really is, yeah.

I feel like there's an endless amount of possibilities in the world of wrestling. Like, you know, congratulations again. This is season number three. but I feel like you could make 33 seasons with the amount of stories that are out there. Do you guys have to name what the episodes are, but do you have a list, an ongoing list of like, oh, this could work, this could work.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've sort of kept the list, you know, over the seasons, like the various years that we've done new seasons, and we always ask, you know, viewers what they want to see. And, I mean, we have to credit our viewers, too. they've definitely shown with enthusiasm the ones that they really want to see and that's definitely forced us or motivated us to try and make those episodes happen. Also, there's just a ton

that, you know, for like personal reasons we want to get in there. There's definitely a few in this season. I think Road Warriors was one that was personal that we wanted to get in for season two. And I think season three, there's definitely a few that are just like, okay, like, you know, like I know for me personally over the lockdown last year, like, wrestling viewing was strictly FMW and I was blown away by FMW and it's like discovering something that I'd always kind of passed over and so I was like, okay, we're doing an FMW show this season, you know? So like that happens. But for the most part, it's also like we have tons of different ideas for episodes and we just, we all kind of like, you know, us and members of our team, we kind of get together hash it out and try and find those elements that will transcend kind of the wrestling bubble and will hook an audience outside. of it. Like here's here's a human story that anyone can connect with. And I think wrestling is such a like oddly perfect setting for a lot of these stories because, um, it, wrestling winds up because it has this kind of like blurred lines aspect or this like fourth wall aspect,

wrestling always kind of becomes this, uh, petri dish or, you know, microcosm of society in so many different ways. And it's a really interesting vehicle to examine like politics or, you know, or, you know, just human dynamics or entertainment or anything through that lens. And that's what we try to do is we always just try and look at what stories fit that. Like, what can we look at through the lens of wrestling, you know, and that kind of helps us weed out the other stories. Because some just don't fit that bill or there isn't that really strong human connection or that firsthand information or that one interview subject that can really help that.

But yeah, that's kind of a little bit of the process. And then we just kind of, as soon as we get one, we just, we're off and we're making it as quickly as possible. Well, wrestling is so niche. And wrestling fandom is also so niche. You guys have found a way to broaden this out. Maybe, I mean, true crime is really hot right now. And you guys have somehow, like melded true crime and wrestling together to make this appeal to a broader audience. It doesn't have to be someone who's just a wrestling fan right now.

If they were even familiar with wrestling growing up, they can watch this and appreciate it and enjoy it. that's exactly like what we were thinking about in the beginning. Like in the very beginning, it was like, you know, I think back in 2016 or whatever, true crime was really hot in terms of these documentary series, HBO's The Jinks comes to mind. A couple other like things are really popping off at that point. But what I think Jason and I responded to the most was just the like, if you could take the storytelling chops of the best of true crime. And in particular, we always referenced this one movie,

The Thin Blue Line from the 80s. It's a documentary by Earl Morris that is kind of the masterclass of like true crime. It actually set the bar in many ways for what, you know, true crime documentary should be. And it's just like everything in that film is cinematically perfect. Like the interviews are perfectly, they look perfect, all the reenactments. If you go back and watch the reenactments, you'll see exactly what we stole from, you know, borrowed from, you know, and changed a little bit. But, I mean, that's what really influenced us. And then, of course, just the effect that the music had on that.

The music, I think, is such a secret ingredient of our show in terms of the success of the storytelling is just that the music just pulls you in. And, like, the music of that film, too, in particular is such a, it has almost a hypnotic quality that draws you in. And so for us, it was like, we knew these stories in the wrestling world are so captivating because they're so unlike anything in sports or entertainment. So if we could just take the best tools of true crime, documentary, filmmaking, and put that into the wrestling thing, those two, that mixture would work. I feel like people would be like, oh, wow, okay, I get it. Yeah, and people in the wrestling world are so entertaining and such incredible storytellers, which, you know, probably comes from hours on the road of just telling stories and, you know,

passing stories down. So when we were obsessed with, like, shoot interviews, just like, you know, those old shoot interviews that looked like they were just shot on a shitty video camera and, you know, a Ramada somewhere. And we just always thought, like, man, if you could just get like, decent lens in front of them and some lighting that the stories would just reach through, you know, and also like, let's have them talk, like, directly to camera because that's what they, they all were trained to do when they were, like, cutting promos and stuff.

So we have that to use, too, you know, that, like, that we can use that ability and have them literally, like, you know, reach through to the audience, that, you know, that was. Yeah, it's like, yeah, like Jake the Snake Robber's, like, looking at you and telling you that story is going to be captivating for sure. Yeah. How much did COVID help or hurt you guys filming? Well, it was a, well, going back a little bit when, you know, COVID broke out in a big way, obviously, you know, when the first lockdowns happened during the, during the filming of season two still, which is kind of hard to wrap your head around. But it was in March, obviously, we were filming the last few scenes of the, of our reenactments for season two.

Yeah. I think this, I think it was really wrong. Her own heart episode, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Like, we were shooting on studio and we were getting word that, you know, this was happening. And then the next, like our last day, we finished and then right after Toronto completely like shut down, you know. And but we still had to go to work, go to the office and, you know, finish the episode. So it was a really weird experience. Like, Evan and I are just walking downtown Toronto to work with like no one.

around and it's just like us in the studio with like a couple editors and that was really weird and then eventually it shut down to the point where they just had to give me we had to close the studio and they gave me like a giant hard drive and I flew back to nova scotia here and just was finishing the episodes like remotely from the lockdown remotely from here and that was kind of the start of trying to figure out how do we do make the show like during this and then there we release the show, which was weird too, because there was no, like, we were going to have a premiere and everything. Oh, yeah. That's right. A big premiere, you know, and that got shut down like days before. So, you know, thankfully, like, people watched it, you know, and I think kind of, like, we hear a lot

that people thanked us so much for creating content that people could watch during the, you know, the lockdown. And that was really cool. So, you know, I felt bad that we didn't get to like, you know, celebrate all this like hard work but then like seeing that people were like so appreciative of us doing it and then making season they asked us like all right season three and it's like whoa like this stuff's not over like how do we yeah yeah we do this but yeah you know we started figuring out like you know studying all the COVID protocols and then we got an RV that like Evan and a couple camera operators criss-cross America several times

instead of flying you know and so I the worst thing about it is Evan and I normally are like living together and producing the show together like non-stop but we've had to like separate like he's handling you know American side

and I'm doing the stuff and yeah and so but we do this like every day and with our team and jam it out every every single day yeah it was it was daunting because it was like, okay, we're going to make another season, um, you know, uh, during this pandemic, but also it's going to be, uh, asterix 14 episodes, you know? It's like, oh, God.

You know, like I was, I, I wasn't anticipating that, which is almost twice the amount of episodes that had already previously existed for, for, uh, you know, for the series. So, um, we really had to figure out how we were going to do this. And other shows had been filming already. And, and the, the, the RV model, uh, what was really working. And that was wild. I mean, you know, we were traveling the country, you know, in this RV going like literally on journeys from L.A. to Charlotte, you know, and just like going all the way around and back again,

did it multiple times. But, you know, it really was the safest way to do it. Because I think for us it was like safety was first. Like, we definitely wanted to not put anyone in harm's way and wanted, you know, safety to be the number one primary concern. But the number two in the list was that we didn't want to sacrifice the quality of the show in any way. So if we could do both, then let's do this. Because we didn't want to do like Zoom interviews or like change the look of the show in any way.

We wanted to deliver the same show. And I'm grateful that, you know, A, you know, we've been able to maintain safe. No one's been, you know, no one's gotten sick. But at the same time, the show is the same show. And so we're just super grateful for that. And that's because primarily we have a killer team. And our team has just absolutely been amazing this year. we've been able to expand the team a little bit because we have more episodes and yeah everyone just

has been firing on all cylinders for sure this podcast is sponsored by better help is there something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist you can start communicating in under 48 hours now this isn't a crisis line this isn't self-help this is professional counseling done securely online. There's a broad range of expertise available, which may not be locally available in many areas. The service is available for clients worldwide. You can log into your account anytime and send a message to your counselor. You'll get timely and thoughtful responses. Plus, you can schedule weekly video or phone sessions so you won't ever have to sit in an uncomfortable

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In fact, so many people have been using BetterHelp that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. So the special offer for anybody listening to Insight right now is 10% off your first month. Just go to BetterHelp.com slash insight. That's BetterHelphelp.com slash insight. COVID aside, what do you guys wish that you? you knew after three seasons of filming that you wish you knew at the start oh man so many so many things uh you know especially when you think of where we started like we're starting with like the very start was with like abdul of the butcher and like tony atlas and so like well you know one thing i do remember like tony atlas was like our first interview and that was like as you can tell when you

watch the Bruce of Brody episode. It's really intense. And that made me realize, like, you know, we're going down this road of bringing up stories from 30 years ago. And then you can tell that it's like some of them are like still very raw and still very like emotionally very present for definitely for some people. But then, you know, we go to Abdul the butcher and that was like our first experience of like being really worked by a wrestler. You know, where we're constantly looking at each other like what are we like you know are we being worked or is this a shoot like what is going on you know well we were also really marquey too like we were also like we were like pretty marky in the fact that like you know we were just legitimately scared of abdul the butcher but go on yeah no no no yeah

so like there's like those like now i would you know going hanging out with abdul the butcher would be great because i would have more confidence probably to like call them out on some stuff but what's the episode or the interview that you got and you both looked at each other and went, I can't believe this person said yes, or I can't believe this person said this in the interview. There's been about 200 of them. Yeah, I know. All of them.

Yeah. There's been a couple. There's been a couple. I think one of the big. We all need to put our hands on our chin here. Yeah. I think, yeah. Um, God, there's been a lot.

There's been a lot of those moments. Yeah, there's, there was, I know one. We got Earl Hebner for the Montreal screw job episode. And when he like, through the energy, it was a super weird when he like sat down. And then when he like, he like started opening up to us about like what was on his mind, you know, he thought that we were going. We were Canadian, like Canadian crew coming down to America to assassinate him to get revenge for the Montreal screw job. You know. And when he said it.

It was just like, I remember all of us being like, holy shit. Like, this is intense. You know, this guy really, you know, like, he's the one living in fear since the Montreal screw job to the point where he was going to like ask his like police officer friend to come and knock on our door. And in case a bullet started flying through the door, his police officer friend was going to get shot before he would. He's going to put his friend in harm's way.

Yeah, I think, yeah, to me that that was such a wild experience because it was like, you know, when we like you, we said at the very beginning of this, you know, this interview about the Montreal screw job being a story that's been told so many times. That was a real big learning experience because like when that happened, that to me opened my eyes immediately that, wait a minute, like everyone, you know, Brett obviously always talks about being the victim of that story, you know, but now Brett's found a way to kind of work that again. And of course, he and Vince have worked that back into the storyline machine of wrestling and everything. But the real unresolved emotions on the Montreal screw job stories with Earl Hebner, a man who really is probably experienced the most trauma at the hands of that story. Because, you know, it's like he does get scared when he goes into Canada. He does, you know, people do chant at everywhere he goes. You screwed Brett. You screwed Brett.

And I think it does haunt him because he basically had to betray. If you really think about it, he had to betray the trust of one of his friends that he's had for a long time for the. the sake of his job. Nobody wants to be in that position. That's awful. And I think that like when you really talk about the victims of that story, well, you know, Earl just gets passed over, you know, a lot. So that was eye-opening to me. And of course, Jim Cornett on that episode dropped, you know, the, you know, the information about pitching the spot, you know, how, okay, well, how would we take the belt off Brett? Well, this is how, based on this historical other incident, you know, other incident from the 1920s, you know, and so then you're getting all this new information.

So that was really exciting. But man, there's been a lot of interviews where it's just like, I can't believe, you know, like I remember the Tonga Kid interview for Jimmy Snooko was one where I definitely felt that like, you know, and making sure that what this person is telling me about this story. We're not getting it crisscrossed, like, you know, going back over it many times because if what he's saying is true, the implications are quite massive. So that was probably one of the bigger examples for me personally. But yeah, there's definitely a few on this upcoming season for sure, too. Yeah, we've also, we both had the opportunity to sit down with David Benoit. Right. Yeah.

What a fascinating story he has and has had to live through for the last 14 years. And like there were moments when I sat down with him. I did that interview in Las Vegas with him. There were moments in that interview where like I was trying to. not cry because such a difficult story to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

I think for me, it was like, you know, when Jason and I put this show together and season one, it happened, and, you know,

we, we had since talked about, like around that time, about doing that, this is a story, like doing the Chris Benoit story for the show. But we sort of needed to find,

like, that sort of purpose. Because you don't want to exploit that tragedy just for the sake of your TV show. You need to find kind of the human element or find some sort of reason to go back and look at it. So I remember walking around Starcast, you know, Conrad's event, I think it was in Las Vegas right after season one had come out. And I remember, and David was there as a just, you know, attending the, attending the event. And it's hard to not stop and be like, oh, I mean, you know, he looks like his dad, you know.

And so that had a profound effect on me because I immediately started to think about what he must have gone through. You know, what, what does he go? I mean, to be brave enough to like show up to this wrestling event and be like, I'm here, you know, and whatever. And then it made me think about just like all of, you know, what terrible things people say online or all that stuff and just really think about his experience and what he's had to endure. And that to me started to feel like, okay, that's a side of this that I think is worth. worth exploring, you know, in that, you know, it's not the sins of the father. And, you know, you've, you know, what has your experience been? And then that sort of unlocked this whole aspect, you know, with, you know, Nancy's sister Sandra and her experience and then learning

about the estrangement that the two had. And then, and then that, then it all start to kind of come together is that, okay, now there is kind of a purpose. And then, of course, with folks like, you know, Vicky Guerrero or even Chabobo Gros Jr., you know, not being, being a part of the WWE for so long not not being allowed to tell their stories and having to kind of keep it inside because it's just like one of the most taboo subjects in wrestling let's not make it taboo because I don't think that that's good I don't think that's yeah I don't think that is good for the sake of mental health and and grief and so I it was kind of then it gave us that purpose but but David you know I think his his you know being so brave because I think when

he was in front of our camera I think that was before he did the interview with you if I It was, yeah. I think mine got published before yours, but he- I remember that, yeah. You guys first. Yeah, it really seemed like to Jason and I, you know, that it was one of the first times that he had ever talked about this, not just, you know, in front of a camera.

And that was one of the more sobering moments for us because, you know, Chavo was there as a sense of support. And Sandra was there as a sense of support. And it was such an, such an emotional experience for both of us because it's like now, you know, we're not just wrestling fans with cameras anymore. And this is a bigger thing. And it, that episode in particular is such a powerful memory because it really feels like a unified front of so many people kind of coming together to support one another to tell that

story. And that was no more evident in that moment, you know, which we included in the episode where, you know, David breaks down and everyone kind of, you know, comes around to support him. It's just, yeah, that's definitely the heaviest experience. I think Chase and I have had, like, in the interview process. Yeah, and it's one of the episodes we probably put the most like, like amount of,

just focus on, you know, because there was a period between season one and season two, where we didn't know if season two was going to happen. And so we thought it was something that we wanted, like if we were going to do another season, that we can maybe use season one to help us get in the door to, like,

start to try and tell that story. But we got, luckily, it worked out that way because we had time to, you know start relationships and you know we got to meet David like months before we shot his interview just we brought him into Toronto so he could hang out with him for a weekend and just you know we just wanted to show him we weren't like you know you know I don't know like people in suits just like making you know yeah rating TV it wasn't about that for us it's like it it was

about having the people who were closest to that story and you know bringing them together and if we couldn't have done that, then there wasn't really any point for us and did. And we played golden eye. We played a bunch of golden eye together. It did. Yeah. I played top golf with David Benoit before we did our interview. So there you go.

There you go. You don't have to name names here, but is there somebody that you're working on for a future episode that you're chipping away at and hoping to finally get that yes from them? Well, now that, now that everything, unless there's a

up interview that we need to do that I'm not aware of. Everything that we've shot for this season is in the can. Well, I mean, for all the future seasons you're going to be in greenlit for. God, I haven't gotten there yet. Okay, well, yes. You know, this is maybe an interesting segue, but, you know, so for this season, we're doing an episode about the steroid trials, you know, which is one of the more just like significant events outside the ring in all of wrestling in the wrestling world of the 90s,

you know, when Vince McMahon was on trial and, you know, he was indicted by the government. It's a crazy, crazy story. We were able to interview, you know, Vince's long time attorney, Jerry McDivitt, which to us is kind of a new threshold of access because he technically is, you know, still, you know, very much a part of the company in some ways. And that to us kind of, I'm hoping is will allow us to interview more folks behind the scenes at WW or other people who have stories to tell. Maybe stories that aren't necessarily related to WW or their time at WW, but folks that could appear on our show and tell their stories.

That to me is kind of the closest of that, where it's like, I think going forward, like, you know, it would be great. Like, for example, like the one that comes to mind is like, you know, Michael Hayes works at the WWE, but he was in the Freebirds, you know, and the Freebirds has an incredible story. And it's like, I could definitely see a dark side of the ring about the Freebirds. So if that's possible, that would be one that I'm chipping away at for a future season. So there you go. Well, guys, this is such a fascinating show.

And it's been so fascinating diving into like what goes in to making these incredible shows. So again, congratulations on season three. And thank you guys for spending some time. with us today. Of course. Thanks for having us. And I end every interview talking about gratitude. So before we wrap this up, we'll start with you, Evan. What are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? Man. Number one, like, I'm super grateful like for my parents. I like my parents, like encouraged all of my passions, you know, like growing up. Like I think that I wouldn't probably be in this position to make the show without that. Like, if it

was wrestling. Like my parents were like, you know, like, okay, like, you know, I'm like, my dad got me to meet Stone Cold Steve. I went to the ends of the earth to make me to meet Steve Austin when I was a kid, you know, and always encouraged the things that I wanted to do, even though I may have dropped out of college or done these things. It was like, you know, like that sort of support is probably number one. For this show, like I'm super grateful for our team, you know, like our team has put themselves, I mean, this is a pandemic going on. They put themselves at risk, you know, to make this show. Um, and just super grateful for that. Grateful that they, they, um, did that, you know, and, and, um, and also, uh, that

everyone has been safe. I'm grateful for that. And I'm grateful for the editors, you know, that work on the show. This is all number two. I'm looping us in the number two. Um, and, uh, but just, I just like a special shout out, like our crew, this, this season in particular, just like, you know, they're, they're really the ones that, um, deserve everything for that. So, that's number one or that's number two number three uh i think is uh in the context of this show um uh i think uh the family members that we talk to and that there's a lot of them but i think the family members in the fact that you know a lot of them sometimes when they when when when we put cameras in front of family members they have nothing to at face value gain so to speak from

revisiting these things that are so difficult you know and and so and so and so bad you know but But I think that the fact that they trust us and allow us to tell those stories and to take these journeys. And then I think more times than not, definitely a majority of it, they find catharsis through that and that process and to further just, you know, have discussion around things. I'm grateful for that because without that, our show wouldn't be what it is. Yeah, I love it. Jason, what about you? Mine are very similar, similar. You know, I'm grateful for, you know, all the, my, you know, most of my friends and family are healthy and that, you know, and also my parents always being so supportive of what I wanted to do.

Like, no one in my family has ever worked in the arts. They're, like, construction workers and farmers. And so the idea of, you know, when I started going down to this path of filmmaking, I never got any, like, hesitation from my folks. They always encouraged me to, like, follow my dreams. even when it was hobo with a shotgun. Yeah. When I was hobo with shotgun, and it would freak my mama when she would come to self. She was so, like, so supportive, you know, and still are.

You know, they're, you know, we went to visit them last night. My mom's trying to figure out how to get the Herb Abrams, UWF show. You know. Yeah, and then also, yeah, super grateful for, like, our crew. And the whole team for, you know, doing the show with us during the pandemic, you know, keeping us in check and, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, we're, you know, the first two seasons were really, really hard.

Like, and, like, on Evan and I, because we were, you know, just so, it was such a running gun thing. And this year, they have, like, we've been able to build a bigger team to, like, help us, like, even more. And so, yeah, super great. It's forced us to embrace like the idea of more help and like to like embrace the idea of like, I think if there's a positive out of the pandemic, not just cut off your things you're grateful for. But just like it's it's like, you know, this idea that I think the circumstances around the pandemic have forced us to be more open to the idea of people coming in and helping and contributing in a way that's really shown us like whoa. Yeah. Like like that, you know, I, I'm really. actually, if I could put a fourth one, really grateful for that.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a big one for me. That's helped me through all, you know, just the stress of making the show and, you know, during the pandemic and everything, I'm just, yeah, so grateful for them. And our editors this year are just so great, you know, they've been killing it. And like even, you know, we're halfway through making the show right now pretty much. Like, we filmed all the interviews, but we, and we've, We're close to locking like eight episodes, but we still have another, you know, how many more do we have left to do?

Or we've... We have six more left to do after this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, so I'm grateful for that. Yeah. Well, again, guys, thank you so much. Congratulations. I can't wait to see season three and then season four, five, six, and, you know, this thing's going to go on forever, I think.

Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you. Thanks again, guys. Thank you. You too. you very much. Appreciate it. Well, there we go, my friends. What a great chat with Evan and Jason. Huge thank you to them for taking the time to do this. And a big thank you to them for the magic that they've created with Dark Side of the Ring. And I also think that we should say thank you to

Vice for greenlighting the show and for giving Evan and Jason a budget to make this thing. And, you know, just think, just think of all the amazing stories that haven't been told yet that we'll be able to see in future seasons. I mean, the possibilities are really endless. I mean, not literally endless, but we could have this show for many, many, many more seasons than I don't think anyone would complain about that. Take a screenshot. Let us know what stood out for you the most from this episode. Tag at Dark Side of the Ring. Tag at Chris Van Fleet. Tag at Evan Husney. Tag at Jason Eisner. Tag us all. Why not? And I'll leave you with this quote from Albert Einstein, which seems so fitting with how things have been this last year with COVID.

Einstein famously said, life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving. Be great. Be grateful, my friends. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand.

He's the spitfire of sports smack. Ticket banj of it. Get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What's your beef? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.