Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Dave Meltzer on 5 Star Matches, TV Ratings, The Business Of Wrestling, AEW, WWE & New Japan

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) is a wrestling journalist and since 1983 has been the publisher and editor of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about how started covering pro wrestling in the 1970s, the matches that made him a fan, the Wrestler Observer Newsletter, how his star rating system works, he explains why wrestlers like Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Chris Benoit, Triple H or Rob Van Dam have never had a 5 star match, his take on the current state of pro wrestling, TV ratings and much more! Use the code CVV to get your first month of Bluechew for FREE at http://bluechew.com Get $150 off your Plunge with the coupon code CVV at http://thecoldplunge.com Quote I'm thinking about: The secret to success is to do the common thing uncommonly well - John D. Rockefeller For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blitz. All right, my friends, here we go. Welcome back to another one here on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleet, and such a great conversation today. When it comes to pro wrestling reporting, Dave Meltzer is a pioneer and a legend. I mean, he's been doing this. He's been in the industry since the 1970s.

And his knowledge of pro wrestling is just so deep. And one of the first things that he talks about here, and I think it's something that more people need to know is he does so much more than just star ratings for matches. He has a tremendous insight, pun intended, about the business side of wrestling. And so often, more often than not, the rumors that he reports end up coming true. So if you subscribe to the wrestling observer, you already know what I'm talking about. But if you don't, this is a great deep dive in to who the man is behind the reports that you see. Who really is Dave Meltzer?

And I got to say, he deserves a ton of credit for paving the way for the widespread coverage of wrestling news that websites have right now. I mean, he was doing this well before the internet was even a thing. And there's just so much more to Dave than wrestling fancy. And I hope that you see that through this episode. When it does come to the ratings, I really have to say it was so interesting. interesting finding out what goes into the amount of stars that a match gets. What does it come down to? He breaks that all down for us. And whether you agree with his ratings or not, I think that people

forget this is one person giving one opinion, one person giving his own opinion. And that's actually what Will Osprey said. If you remember that episode, Will Osprey at the time had 25, five star or better matches. Now he has 26 after that match at Forbidden Dora with Kenny Omega. But it's just kind of like going on Rotten Tomatoes and seeing the reviews for movies. There's a lot of them on there. Dave's is just one star rating. It's just one rating of a match. Although it was interesting to break down some topics like, you know, Kurt Angles never had a five star match. Why didn't he give five stars to HBK versus The Undertaker, either of those matches at WrestleMania? All really interesting stuff and just a great conversation with Dave. Please snap a screenshot. Let us know what you

think of this episode and tag us so we can share it out as well. Dave is at Dave Meltzer W-O-N. I'm at Chris Van Fleet and I really enjoyed this one. I hope that you do too. Please welcome Dave Meltzer. Dave, I feel like this has been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you on the show for a while. So here we are. Thanks for coming on. Oh, anytime. Yeah, I've been, I was really excited when, you know, Derek try to set this whole thing up and everything. Yeah. Well, I've known you for years. I would run into you at the, you know, when AEW is first starting out, when they were doing press scrums and no other media company at the time was, or no other wrestling company was doing that at the time would run into you there and chat with you there. You're like an enigma for a lot of people. I think a lot of people will see your name or see quotes that you have said, but I don't really know if anybody knows Dave Meltzer. Not as many. I mean, I mean, I think most people don't really understand what I do. I do agree that. I do agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, I mean,

what is it that you do then? I just cover wrestling the same way that I covered every other sport that I covered ever since I was a teenager, you know, and doing high school sports and, you know, just like the whole deal, yeah. What do you think it is that people think that you do? I'm not sure. I mean, I think they think I just rate wrestling matches,

which is like the smallest thing that I do. But I do try to do that to, you know, And it's recommendations for people who, you know, just like, hey, go out of your way to see this match. And this is how much you should go out of your way to see it is essentially what it is. And then just kind of, you know, opinions on what are the matches that you should see? Matches of the year. You know, things like that, which is always a great debate, you know, at the end of the year. And during the year is, I mean, everybody has the term now match of the year candidate and all that.

You know, I mean, it's. And, you know, so, yeah, I add my two cents. Like, these are the ones that I think, you know, and it's like, that's pretty much it. And so I've been doing that for a long, long time. It wasn't my system, but I guess I get credit for it now. You are the guy. When people think of five-star matches, you were the name that gets attached to that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is fine, you know, and it's everything's opinion and everything.

Sure. It's like there's no wrong opinion. Your own opinion is fine, but my opinion is also fine. You've been doing this since, is it 1980 when you started this? The awards would be 1980, but the, observer would have been the end of 1982 because I was tape trading with people when videotapes first came out. And so the people who I taped traded with, we did our, that watched like wrestling everywhere. You know, we would watch all the tapes of all the different regional

companies. So we would do our awards at the end of the year. So that started in 1980. Man. So long time. That's longer than I've been alive, Dave. Unbelievable. I was born in 1983. But I mean, if, if, if. If you were covering wrestling and watching wrestling back then, I mean, we're going to talk about a bunch of things here, but how much did you watch it change into the mid-80s with Hulkomania and everything that changed after that with WWF at the time? I mean, it's shit, but it always changes.

I mean, that's the thing that you kind of learn in time and you learn a perspective. I mean, I feel like I've been through several generations of the exact same thing and the exact same things being said. I mean, like when I was a kid and told that Rick Flair didn't know how to work by the older guys and Ricky Steamboat didn't know how to work. And I'm watching going like, these are the best matches I've ever seen. And they're going like, oh, they don't know how to work.

All they do is high spots. And now it's like, I've been through like three or four generations of that now. So it's kind of hilarious. And when I look back and I try to tell people that and some people get it and some people, you know, will probably never get it. But, you know, it's a generational thing. And I mean, one of the things is, if you look back in history, like 1915, Farmer Burns are saying these guys aren't really wrestlers like in my day.

You know, when Gus Sondonberg became the big draw and all the, you know, Strangler Lewis and those guys saying, you know, this isn't wrestling. You don't shoulder block and things like that. So it's something that I presume will go on forever because the business always has to change. You know, and I mean, Patterson, Paterson used to tell me that the only thing that stays the same in wrestling is that it's always going to change. It's just so interesting that like, I think with the advent of the internet, Seems like people complain a lot about wrestling.

Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, it's one thing. It's one thing like there's valid complaints, but sometimes like you'll see, you know, things are hitting really strong and the crowd reactions are great. And then trying to say somehow that's wrong, that's bad. I mean, I think people go like, oh, you know,

it's like it's, you know, it's not fair to to watch this stuff now because the crowd's so easy. And it's like, you know, they were easy. You know, when guys are over, it's always easier. What can you say? I feel like this. generation of wrestling fans or just current wrestling fans always go back at least right now to it's never going to be like the attitude era it's not going to be like the attitude and it won't and it won't oh i mean as far as it's popular who knows i mean it goes up and down like if you go a couple

years before the attitude era we're talking about mid 90s yeah it was dead you know what i mean it was like that's a real learning thing it's like it was so w wcw were so weak and then you know the monday night wars and it became the hottest it ever was. And then, you know, things happen. Um, you know, I mean, right now we're, we're stronger. It's probably stronger than it's been in many, many years. I don't know that it will ever be, um, I mean, viewership wise, it'll never be like the attitude era because, you know, TV's changed, life has changed, things like that. And, um, there's just so many more forms of entertainment out there. But it's very, very strong. And, um, you know, people are willing to spend far more money on it than in the attitude era. So,

there is that difference. The crowd, the crowd is more into wrestling. It's much smarter crowd. It's not just, you know, I mean, it's not, it's not as much of a fad as it was in, let's say, the late 80s, the late 90s, but it's more solid

economically than it's ever been by far. Oh, yeah. It's interesting, though. Like, people will try to compare the numbers now, the ratings now to the ratings that we saw in the late 90s. But you can't compare that. Because anyone in television, it's like, a show the most popular shows on network tv do numbers that would get them immediately cancelled yes 20 30 years ago so when you're going in there i mean i know that like for what you know like

an NBA finals or NFL's NFL anything their numbers can compare to the past but almost everything else is like dwindled in comparison so like if you go like okay five years ago w w you was doing you know 2.5 million viewers for raw every week and it's a number that they're probably, you know, maybe, maybe they'll reach, maybe they'll never reach again or maybe they'll reach with some super show. But I mean, the point of that is, is that, but it's way more popular now. I mean, like, I always judge on, you know, um, I know, basically, you know, you know, attendance, you know, I mean, that's, that's the real barometer to me. It's always been, you know, for Vince McMahon as well. The money barometer is ratings,

but ratings in comparison. When, when you're comparing ratings, the thing you got to look at is placing, you know, of your night, placing during the week, you know, placing against your competition. If number one, you know, on Friday night is 0.16, just as an example, then point 16 is a hell of a number. It's number one out of, you know, 125 stations, right? It sounds like a terrible number to some people. And, and, you know, years ago, it would have been, you know, but you have to compare it to time. Ratings are about time and place and everything, and raw is, you I know Raw is very often the number one entertainment show on cable for the week, number one, number two. And dynamite is usually, you know, five or six, you know, in that range.

So they're very, very successful shows, you know, even if you go like, oh, you know, TNA did more viewers. And yeah, it did. But, but, you know, can they go around? I mean, like, look, you know, AED is going to do, I think they're at almost 66,500 tickets sold for Wembley. you know it's like when when you know whoever did that you know i mean yes w wb in 1992 that's it um you know what i mean and and wrestlemanias and that's that's it in the history of wrestling i mean from all of the you know Hulk Hogan's and luthezes and uh bill goldbergs and stone colds and dwayne you know it's like they're you know wrestling wrestling um

is is uh you know it's not it's not it's super super popular right now not at rec not at record levels. I do believe the attitude era was more popular overall, but it's a different society. And I think it's, you know, like I said, it's very, very healthy. Although people will look at the Wembley numbers and then go, ah, but what about these shows that are happening in Canada right now? What about these AEW shows? AEW and really struggling. Yeah, AWW has some shows that are struggling. And maybe, you know, look what we look at WWE. I mean, one thing. And again, when you're number one, it's easier to move and be hot. When you're number two, it is tougher. it's not impossible.

But I mean, with the WWE, I think the perfect thing to learn from is it really isn't that much that changed a lot. I mean, I look at, when I look at the WWE and it's, it's growth and popularity over the last year, I really look at signing Cody Rhodes.

And of course, the bloodline angle. And then everything else, you know, certain things got cool like singing Seth Rallan song, you know, it's like a real big deal right now. And that all helps.

But I mean, it's really, you know, you just have this great bloodline angle, one of the greatest angles and scripted things that they've done in so many years. And they've gone from doing what I would call well to doing excellent. And, you know, you can look at historically when it comes to wrestling. You hit on a right on a good angle. You know, you can really move the numbers a lot.

And, you know, AW is one angle away from it. Now, of course, at the same time, you know, it's like those angles don't last forever. You know, it's kind of like, hey, let's look at the NWO, right? NWO, I mean, WCW just got so, so, so popular. But, you know, you have to follow up because it's, nothing lasts forever. Well, the bloodline angle won't last forever either, you know. And from people say the bloodline angle is top three wrestling storylines of all time or top five wrestling stories lines of all time.

And I'm like, maybe you have a bit of a recency bias because you're seeing this on TV right now, but, I mean, that's a great angle. It's a great angle. I don't know about like, yeah, where I would rate. of all time, you know, with all the different angles that have done things. I mean, it's different, you know, and you're watching with different eyes. But all I could say is it's very, very successful. And, you know, and it's got a lot of layers.

The people who are in charge of have done a great job with it. And the actors involved, you know, Roman Raines and Jay and Sammy Zane when he was involved. Sammy Zane, I mean, I think he was the catalyst of all of it. I mean, it's like, it's gone on without him in that direct angle. But I think he was the one who really jump started the whole thing. This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. And if you've ever been thinking of trying Blue Chew, how about your first month for free? Yeah, when you use the promo code CVV at checkout at BluChew.com, you'll get your first month for free.

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you just have to pay $5 for shipping. That's bluechew.com. The promo code is CVV. If we go way back here, Dave, what were people saying when you were covering pro wrestling in the early 80s? Back when we weren't sure

if this was real or scripted. Well, we were sure, but, I mean, if you look back at newspaper stories in the 1910s, you know, you'll see that people knew back then. But I think in the industry at first, die, it was, it was like pretty negative yet, you know, I mean, like Eddie Graham and Jim Crockett and Bill Watts and all those guys all subscribed in Vince, all subscribed in red. So, but yeah, I mean, I mean, people should tell me I was like public enemy number two behind Vern Gagne,

yeah, because everybody hated Vern, but whatever, you know, you know, yeah, it was something new. it was not well received and they didn't want, you know, they wanted the coverage. I don't think they really, they did that era of people didn't want mainstream coverage. Like they were afraid of the regular media, whereas now, you know, everybody just covets that regular media. Back then, they didn't want the regular media because they were so afraid they would tell people that it was fake. So, you know, regular media when they tried to cover it, never really got a lot of cooperation.

And if you look back, there's not a ton of mainstream media stories on wrestling in the 70s, even though wrestling in the 70s, just. an example was, you know, there was kind of a boom there in the early 70s. It's just so interesting that like I feel like wrestling didn't have a ton of coverage, the internet, everything boomed. And I think it boomed again with social media. And I mean, the amount of people that are covering wrestling now is, I mean, there's never been this many people covering wrestling.

No, no, no, no. There's never been so much news out on wrestling, which is. Well, I think news in quotations, right? That's the interesting thing about pro wrestling. Well, there's, it's, it's funny with the news thing because it's like, I'll look at stuff and that people use as news and I'll go like, you know, this isn't, you know, I mean, but you know what, that's not unique to wrestling. That's unique to everything as far as, you know, the, um, just the nature of the news, like the news that the news business that I grew up on. Um, and I was taught in school. I mean, it was really all about news and it was not about money, even though in the, end, it's always about money, right? Now, I don't even think there's that pretense. I think that it's, you know, and that's not just wrestling. That's everything when you watch, like when I watch real news now or whatever what purports to be real news. Yeah. And compare it to the real news I watched, you know,

the whole mentality is so different. I mean, there were leanings and things like that in the past, but now it's, it's like it's a game and it's not trustworthy and it's sad in a lot of ways. Like I see some of these headlines now, and I'm not pointing, fingers in any particular sites here, but they'll be like, 37-year-old former WWE champion agrees to something unbelievable. And you're like, I don't know, I don't know what any of this means, but of course I'm going to click to see who it is. Oh, that's who it is. That's the mean Gene Okerlund hotline stuff in, you know, in modern times. That's an interesting point. Yeah. Yeah, he was the first to do that, that I recall. What do you think has been the biggest shift in

wrestling journalism since you got into it to where it is now. I mean, everything having to do with the internet. You know, that's changed it. And it's opened it up. And like news is so much quicker. Like when I started news, you know, it took much more time and rumors spread that weren't true that stayed, you know, like for weeks and weeks now, you know, things pretty much, you know, it's a minute by minute thing as opposed to a week by week or a month by month.

you know so so that's different you know i mean there's access to a lot of information and at the same time um you know there's it's it's it's it's really it's really tough in a lot of ways um it's it's not tough to get information but it's tough because um everything is so how would i say this um you know people have their view have they have their sides and they've already picked their sides So if you try to be down the middle, you're going to be an enemy with everyone. So it's that, but you know what? I mean, that probably always existed. But now it just seems, it seems more prevalent now than before.

Yeah, and I think that something's happening with news in general, not just in wrestling, but news in general where it's like you want to be first and it doesn't matter as much about being right. It's just about being first and getting the headline out there first. I think so. You know, yeah, yeah, I would, I would think so that there's that. Absolutely, yeah. And if there was any sort of animosity between WCW and WWF fans in the end-the-aditude era, the internet wasn't what it is now.

Right. It definitely wasn't as loud as what we're seeing. Yeah, I think that the, actually the, um, this, that situation, probably because when I remember it, you know, you know, I mean, again, I mean, in some ways it's, it's not quite as stupid because when, when, when, WCW was winning the ratings. I mean, it was like, oh, you know, Ted Turner bought the ratings. You know what I mean, almost like, you know, like that they stole the election from Trump type

of thing. Right, right. That was the stuff that I would read and I go like, that's freaking ridiculous. Now, like with the WCW and the WCW and I don't hear people say like, oh, you know, they're buying ratings. I mean, I have heard like the thing, oh, Tony Kahn buys all the tickets and gives them all away, you know. And that was, you know, even from WW wrestlers at first when they first had their first,

when AW first had their lines of success and they were doing really, really well coming out of the gate, you know, they would say that. And it's like, if there were tons of freebies, we would find out about it immediately because one of the things with this,

people will tell you, hey, there's all these freebies out there right now, you know? So it's like that kind of stuff. It's, it's, you know, but people are going to say it. Like, people are going to say that

because they're going to be on, you know, yeah, the tribalism is. Oh, the tribalism, Dave. It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad. I know. I know. I don't know why we can't all just agree that, hey, we are wrestling fans. We enjoy watching pro wrestling. And whatever letters or words are attached to that, whether it's AW, New Japan, WW, WW, the list goes on and on and on. We're all wrestling fans here. Well, some people grew up a certain way. I mean, I remember when I was a kid and, you know, they formed like the ABA and, you know, American Basketball Association and rival sports leagues like the NHL had rivals. You know, not so much like in football because the NFL was so dominant and nobody else really competed, but where they would take the top stars.

And I guess this happened a little bit with the USFL where, you know, like a top star would leave. And the fans would be furious at the top star for leaving like you're a traitor, you know, to make, you know, and usually they were off. for way, way, way more money to go to the lower league or the fledgling league. And the player, and it's just like, you know, they just wanted those leagues to go away because they didn't want this type of thing to happen, even though it was, you really like the sport. It's the greatest thing. There's new ideas with a new league.

And it opens up more jobs. And, you know, it's a good thing. But I, and I think that what happened was you and you had a generation where WWF was so dominant. And all of a sudden, there were little chinks in the armor. And AEW did much better than most people expected. did. And then there was a thing of denying it. And now WWF turned it, WV turned it around and more power to them for doing it. I mean, you know, I mean, I never had any issues with somebody doing well, you know. And I mean,

I mean, it's, it was funny because the most stuff, the most negative stuff that I would get every week and I was not the only one is when you list the ratings. And if, when AEW was doing good, it was really toxic, you know, from people trying. And now we're AW still doing good, but it's not doing what it was. You know, now it's like they're failing, they're dying. And it's like, look, like last week they were number six of every show on cable and entertainment and number 11 overall. Yeah. For the week, you know, and like, what number three for the night.

And it's like, this is great numbers, you know? And people going like, you can't get a million. And it's like, no, number one, that total viewer number doesn't really matter to people these days. and even if it did, I mean, the number of households that get cable is so far down, like I told people, a million people when AEW started would be $780,000 today because of the loss of the homes. And they beat $780. And even if they didn't, whatever place you're in, you know what I mean? This number, you know, as cable dwindles, you know, as more and more people don't get cable because they're watching other things,

whether it's Netflix or whatever, you know, the, you know, the numbers will, dwindle. WVE's gone up, which is incredible in this time frame. And that's the thing. If W.W. had stayed even, that's a big plus because everybody else is going down 20%, which is scary because then what happens 10 years from now with all these declines. And, you know, with the money, you know, and that is the one scary thing is, but there'll be money from somewhere else. You know, I mean, like there'll be money from streaming companies that are looking to get a foothold and AW is a good one. And WB is a great one for, for, you know, any company, because you got a built-in audience.

Very few people are talking about how much money that YouTube is making for WWE. Like, WWE thinks the number five most subscribed channel on YouTube. They're probably making, if I had to guess with my knowledge of YouTube, they're probably making close to like a million dollars a day just in Google AdSense revenue. Yeah, and I don't think that's right, only because their revenue would have to come up on the books, and it's not even a line item on the books. They are making money, though. I mean, it is successful, but like when they do all of these break,

downs of where the money is, you know, they don't list, I mean, there's, they, they don't list YouTube revenue anywhere compared to, say, you know, arena revenue or obviously TV revenue or pay-per-view revenue or whatever. So it's, it's, I mean, it is a significant number, but it's not like in the pantheon of numbers for, since W.E. is public. In the pantheon of numbers, it's not the game changer that, say, one show in Saudi Arabia is, which is a game changer. That's a That's a crazy number. Although the amount of eyeballs that are watching it on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok that are not factored into the TV ratings are substantial.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they're figured differently. Like you can't go like, oh, 22 million people watch this clip. I mean, it could be the same person watching it 20 times. But if you just go and say, you know, and people don't really understand TV ratings, just an example. Like, I'll just go with Smackdown, right? So let's say Smackdown did 2.4 million.

million viewers. I'm throwing out a number. I don't have the number yet for Friday as we record this. But I'm just to say 2.4 million. Sure. That's not, that's 2.4 million on average for two hours. It's probably if you factor in DVR viewership and people who watch like 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 30 minutes, they're watching it, but, you know, they're not watching it. The whole show start to finish. You're really talking about well over 5 million viewers. And that's just television. And it's also just a guess with the way the Nielsen rating box is actually, work with one box representing a 10,000 people that live in that chip code. It's so stupid.

Their estimates. Yeah, but over the course of a year or even over a course of a month, it's pretty, it's pretty valid. And it's not perfect. Maybe. I mean, I don't know why we can't. We're all getting our cable digitally. Why can't we just check a box that says,

sure, report what I watch back to whoever. Well, I used to get numbers from one of the cable companies. I don't anymore where it was like, like literally. but you couldn't, you know, like there, the way it's like who was tuned in for how many minutes to the stations. It was perfect, except you don't know how many people are watching per thing, but absolutely per set. And I will say that, you know, so these are perfect numbers and it was not 35,000 homes. It was millions of homes, the system that, you know, that covered it that I was getting this, many million homes. And the numbers, I mean, I mean, like for wrestling,

the numbers were pretty consistent with as far as, you know, like when it would, but there were weeks when when I would get a number, because I was getting the number before the ratings came out and where my number would be up 5, 10%, and the TV rating would be down 510%. And granted, this is only one system and, but still it was way more homes. So it's like, most weeks it was consistent. Like go up in one, you'd go up another, but it wasn't perfect. Some weeks, some weeks it was, I'd look and go, oh, hey, you know, a.W is going to be up this week and they would be down or WWE's going to be up this week and it was down. But, you know, eight, nine times out of ten,

it was pretty consistent. But the one thing that I do know from comparisons is that NBA versus wrestling numbers on the system, you know, as far as what I would get, NBA was so far ahead of wrestling as compared to the TV ratings on the same night. And I don't know the answer as to why. But that was consistent when I would see like NBA versus versus Raw.

You know, like Raw might beat him in the ratings, but the NBA number that I would get for households watching was way higher than Nielsen had. So I don't, you know, again, why that is or whatever I don't know. I feel like whenever you put an opinion out, that people, there's always so much backlash for the things that you say. And I'm curious, when did you stop listening to all the haters?

I don't know that I did, but I mean, I'd respond more than I probably should. But like I respond, you know, I always think I'm responding because I'm trying to, you know, explain, you know, why this, you know, premise is wrong and use math and things like that. And I think that the majority watching or watching this will go, okay, you know, we learned something from this. And there will be some who will refuse to learn. And I just basically block them and move on. You basically get one chance. you, oh, hey, I didn't think that that way. That's a great response.

Oh, you know, like whatever, you know, if it's some, a negative thing, you know, trying to double down and it's like, okay, you're not interested in learning. That's fine. And I don't have time. So, you know, but and sometimes, you know, you read it and you go, hey, it's a good point of view.

You know, you learn. You can, you learn. You have to learn from things like that. But a lot, a lot, a lot of it is bad faith. And a lot, a lot of it is not even people who, you know, sometimes I'll look and go like, you don't even believe what you're right. writing. You're just saying it to get a response and that's like a waste.

Well, there's a lot of people that go, well, you said this last week, Dave, and that thing didn't happen. You don't know anything. You know, like, you know, the plans for raw last night were different in the morning than they were when they were when they're showing on, you know, and that's, that's a normal, that's a normal thing. Yeah, you know, whatever. Some, you know, I mean, things, you know, I mean, it's like like, like, uh, you know, if you ever read a book by a wrestler, you know, you'll learn about plans changing. You know, people make fun of, oh, you claim plans change when they didn't. And it's like, I will, you know, I don't even use that term.

That's like something that people made up that, oh, you always say this. And it's like, I rarely say it. But plans change. Have you ever read a book by a wrestler or you ever talk to wrestlers? You know, in any company and every company, you know, things happen. And it's constantly, there's constant movement and change. differences in philosophies and, you know, angles that you're building up for a month and then, you know, they tweak and the fan reaction's different or the owner just goes, I want to go

a different direction. Yeah. Somebody gets hurt. I mean, it's an evolving, you know, it's an evolving thing. I remember the first time I was backstage and also the first time I was in a production meeting, I went, oh, wow, I thought I knew a lot about wrestling, but actually being here and seeing how the sausage is made, made me go, oh, oh, man, I have. had no clue what the inner workings actually look like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, the thing is that people are spitballing ideas back and forth. And, you know, there's a million ideas that get pitched, you know, that never happened.

And I always try to say like, you know, I always try to use the qualifier. And then people go, oh, you're, you're trying to, you know, qualify. And it's like, yeah, nothing in wrestling, nothing happens until it actually happened. Yeah, yeah. That's the nature. That's what I, like, I would always say. It's like, until it happened, it has. hasn't happened. I mean, it could be the plan for six months, but until it happened,

it hasn't happened. Yeah. I think one of those big ones was there was a ton of talk about is Cody Rhodes actually going to leave AEWC, actually going to go back to WWE? That was such a huge storyline. Where did you sit on that as the news was starting to break? I mean, I knew it right away because it's all obvious. I mean, like, you know, I didn't know the day he made the call but I knew several, just a few days later, you know, when they had the meeting and the lawyers were involved and I kind of heard, you know, he's leaving. And it made sense even though, of course, he's going to deny he's going to WWE. And, and, you know, there were always like, oh, it may fall through or whatever. You know, it was kind of like, you know, once the break was made, he's going to WWE.

And I mean, he told his friends he wasn't, or at least some friends. But even then, I know it's like, look, it's Cody and he's protecting the business. you know, in his mind because he wants to do the surprise and everything like that. And that's just the nature of the beast. But I mean, as far as there was never, I mean, I always presumed he was going to WWE. And I knew when the WrestleMania lineup was made, you know, when Seth Rollins had no opponent, you know, that that was Cody Rhodes. I mean, I, you know, I said it may not happen and there may be things this day, you know,

were a little weaker than that day and stuff like that. But in the end, I mean, that was, you know, like that was, that was how it was, unless something big happened, that was how was going to end up. And I don't know that that ever wavered other than people trying to deny it to throw you off sense. There was always talk, like when someone would get released from WW, it would always immediately be like, are they going to sign with AEW? Are they going to AEW? And I said, one day, someone's going to leave AEW and go to WW.

And like, I know that's not being talked about at that time, 2020, but it's going to happen one day. Of course, of course it was. But it was shocking when that first person was Cody Rhodes. Yeah. I think in some ways it was. I was a little surprised. But I mean, the one thing was when the renewal wasn't done. You know, because Tony had an option on Cody to renew the contract like you did with the Young Bucks and others.

And when January 1st happened, and there wasn't a renewal. I mean, that was, and he was out of contract. I mean, to me, that was very interesting. Yeah. Even then, I didn't think he was going to WWE. And, you know, I mean, I had contact with him. And he was always like, well, we are negotiating.

And then, you know, all of a sudden, it was kind of like, yeah, weeks are going by. I mean, there was the assumption, we're going to work it out. And then all of a sudden it was like, I wasn't hearing that anymore. And that's when it was like, you know, something happened. which obviously Vince flew down to meet her is what happened. And, you know, and then it became different. And, you know, he accepted the offer. And, you know, with a benefit of hindsight, man, what a great move that was for all

concerned. Not not AEW. But for, but for Cody, I mean, Cody became a much bigger star than he would have stayed. And, W.W.E. I mean, I thought that, like, he would help them a decent amount. but it was way more than I thought. I mean, being the first guy to make that jump,

and being good talker really helped too. But, you know, it was the right place at the right time and instinct and everything like that. And I mean, I think he played it well for him, you know.

Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, and if he had never left, he'd never be in the spot. If he'd stayed there, he'd been mid-card guy.

I mean, he'd already made it so he can't wrestle for the AW championship. So, Like that was a weird setup for whatever his future was going to be in a day. That was, yeah, I think they were, I never could figure out that angle why they did that. Because I think it was at the time that he didn't want to be criticized for being in power and then being world champion.

So he put this step in that he was never, you know, basically telling everyone, look, I'm never going to be world champion because I'm in power and I'm not going to be what his father was always critic. sized of being. I think that I think that that actually was a negative to the Young Bucks, Kenny Omega, and Cody was how Dusty was viewed by being the Booker and always putting himself on top. So they were going to come in and lose before they were established. Like there was, I think that they lost too much early on. And Tony, I think, felt the same way. Because when he took over booking, one of the things he said, it's like, you know, those guys wanted to lose way more than I wanted them to lose and he allowed them to do that. And I think like the thing, especially with the Young Bucks and Omega, but Cody too,

is that for, you know, you're the million dollar player, so to speak. So you guys need to be up, up, up, up. And then when your TV, you know, they are wrestling stars to the grassroots, but they were not television stars. So when you get to be television stars, then you put other people over. But they were, you know, I think they were so, you know, cognizant of the idea of if we keep winning when we start, when people resent us.

And in today's, in today's fan base, it was going to happen. Like there were, if Cody had been world champion and won it, there'd be people going like, oh, he's just like his father,

right? And that's not a good thing. That's not what he wanted is that viewpoint, you know, especially because he always wanted to be a baby face. Yeah. And in AEW, you know,

stuff happened and, and the people, you know, the fan base, not all the fan base. but enough enough in every city that you could hear it, you know, just really wanted him to turn.

And sometimes the band base does that. And then it's like you, then they get mad that you don't turn. And should you, you know, sometimes it works, you know, with Roman Reins,

it worked. They never did it with Sina because Sina's merchandise sold so much. And I think it would have a huge mistake to do it with Sina, even though it's like, oh, he's what a failure he is. He's getting booed in all these buildings.

As to your top baby phase. And it's like, he's selling more tickets and he's selling more merchandise. he is anything but a failure. Crowd reacts. You know, I mean, if the crowd was silent, it would be sad. You know, but if you get the crowd going and the cheers and the booze are very, very loud and they're fighting each other, that's a good thing. It's not a bad thing.

With knowing what you know in the contacts that you have, how do you know when you can trust your sources? It's why you try to talk to as many people as possible. which, you know, the funny thing is, is in, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not so much trust as much as framework. Everyone is going to give you how they view it. And so it's, it's not, the information is usually, I mean, sometimes there's absolute, I mean, you talk to two people and, you know, one will say this and it's, and it's, and it's total contradiction. And then it's just like, well, these are the two sides of the story. that's it um you know an outright lie is going to come out most of the time pretty quick now i mean even even back in the 90s you know be maybe a week now it's actually you know even quicker so you know

you're going to know but you know and but it's like it's like it's it's more of a framework of how you know everyone views things in a certain way it's not so much a lie as much as hey this is how i see it. Sure. And, you know, and a lot of it's just like when it comes to booking, it's all, you know, it's instinct and it's philosophy. And there is a right or wrong, but the right or wrong is business going up or is business going down.

Yeah. But you don't know that going in, you know, so it's like you kind of have to follow the patterns. And sometimes, you know, if you've got a lot of experience watching this, you know, you're going to be right more than you're going to be wrong, but you're always going to be surprised. And that's why you always have to learn. I mean, there's people, there's people.

who learned and were very, very smart in a certain generation. Yeah. And they have no concept of this generation because the fan base is different. Though circumstances are different. And what people want in, you know, is different. And so, you know, what they wanted three years ago isn't the same as today. Sure. And things that were really, you know, things that were new and unique when they become the same,

they're not new and unique anymore. They were. And it's like that's always, it's always. going to change, you know, and stuff that's going to get attention is going to be the new and unique. And the new and unique is going to be an affront to what was previously there. So people who wanted to stay the same are going to get mad at the new and unique, but it's a new and unique that can either be a spectacular failure or a giant success, but it ends up when things are successful, it's usually the lifeblood of the success. I want to talk about your rating system

because obviously ratings and wrestling are subjective, but what goes into it for you? What goes into rating a match for you? I just watch the match, and when it's over, it's kind of like, what did they accomplish? You know, I mean, did it look good? Did the crowd get off on it? I mean, sometimes the crowd will get off on it

because the true personalities are so strong. And I don't necessarily think. I'll just give an example is Nick Bockwinkle, who was a brilliant guy. And he would always say, like, if you start the match and the crowd's going crazy for the ring entrance,

and that's the hottest part of the match, then how great was the match really? Even if the match is much hotter than a match that starts at zero and you build it up to a level in the entire match, build, build, build, build, which to him and to me as well

is like the most successful matches, you start at this point, you build, build, and you peak at the finish. That's, you know, which means having a good finish. It doesn't, but sometimes that involves like, you know, a lot of people think the most brilliant finishes, you know, all the referee bumps and the run-ins and all that. And if it works for the crowd, then that's fine.

But a lot of people also hate those finishes because they want the clean finish. So they get mad. And it's like sometimes if it doesn't work and people boo at the end or grown, I think grown is worse than booing. But, you know, just go where, you know, bullshit or. or, you know, whatever, then to me, the finish didn't work. But, you know, it's like, it's, it's certainly it's about crowd reactions, but it's not like it's not necessarily decibel levels, although that's a big part of it, for sure. You know, if you do a lot of unique cool things and, you know, just do things out of the

pattern, do things that kind of like shock you, like you're, I think the one thing with, it's like if you're expecting something and then they do something different and go, oh, my God, If they can do that real well, like surprise the audience in a good way where they react. I like that, you know, rather than just pattern. But pattern when it works, simple pattern is not wrong either. And, you know, it's like at the end of the day, it's just kind of like what's working and what's getting the crowd going. And, you know, just execution. some of it. It's a complicated

thing, but in other ways, it's not complicated. You just kind of watch it and like when it's over and where the audience is at that moment and how it's built and everything like that's like, oh, whatever. And I mean, I know like tons of people and we're all, you know, like we're all kind of close, you know, but one of the things, it's like, it's like,

I think people, to me, like I'll just be an example. It's like if I'm sitting at a show and my best friend is sitting with me, you know, go like, would you give the match? And I go, four because I thought it was four and a half. The general thing is, is, okay,

we agreed. It was a great match. It was a great match. You're never going to be like, like my thing, you know, it's like, you're not supposed to agree with four and a quarter, but if you think it's a two, then we disagreed. And there's nothing wrong with that either. It's just what we did was disagree. But sometimes people go like, oh, you know,

why did you give this four and three quarters and not five? And it's like, well, if I gave it four and three quarters and you gave it five, and it's fine, it means we agreed. A hundred percent we agree. That's a quarter of a star. Of course, it's like a movie critic, you know, where it's just the same thing. If you're within a half star, you agree. If you're within a star, you're pretty much agreeing.

You know, if you're two stars apart, you're disagreeing. The difference with the movie critics, though, is you go on Rotten Tomatoes and there's 93 ratings for a movie. When you're talking about pro wrestling matches, it really comes down to like, there's, sure, there's some people rating them, but your rating matters a lot. yeah well i try i i try to do i try to do a fair job you know i mean i think that that that's um it's not like again like what i do to me ratings it's it's it's um it's a recommend you know in the end it's a recommendation this is how bad you should go out of your way to see the match if you didn't see the match that's how i'm mentally looking at it but um i also think that it's not nearly as important as so many other things that i do i think the business

business analysis is by far the most important thing. And people will get all hung up on the ratings aspect. It's just like, you know, you're not even reading the issue with the key stuff in mind. You're ignoring the stuff. Or people who don't read and then get mad at the ratings. It's like, you know, read, you know, and learn. There's so much to learn. Yeah.

And you're just getting hung up on a quarter of a star in the ratings. And it's just like, that's kind of like a waste of time. Well, people get hung up on the ratings when you look at specific things. Like, I was blown away to learn you've only. given one five-star rating to a TNA match. And I was like, come, come on. I mean, I was blown away to learn. Kurt Angles never had a five-star match.

Yeah, he's had tons of four and three-quarters, which is basically the same thing. It's just like the little- It's not the same thing. Yeah, it is. I think anything over, to me, mentally, anything over four is great. And so if you say, I've never given Kurt Engel a four-star match,

you know, whatever. No, he's given him plenty of four-star matches. But, I mean, five, it's like, it's like, yeah, could you say that the Chris Ben-Wan match? Royal Rumble was a five-star match. I was pretty damn close. But I said, Kurt Angle versus Samoa Joe in TNA.

Hell yeah. You think so? I never, I will say, I was, I thought there were, you know, great Kurt Angle,

Samoa Joe matches in TNA. I never saw one as a five-star match. And I mean, it's like, whatever. I mean, five stars to me is like, that's like freaking, you know,

elite, elite, you know, like, you know, it's, it's, and you know, I don't know that,

you know, again, you're arguing a quarter of a star or whatever, but it's like, I never thought about it. I will say, I mean, I'm a four quarter or four and a half. That five star is a benchmark. That's a big, that's a big benchmark for people. Yeah. Well, it shouldn't be because if you're at four and three quarters, that means I'm thinking that you should be considered for match of the year. So, but yeah. Why not give it the five star? Why not give Sean Michaels versus the undertaker at WrestleMania 25, five stars? there was, you know, I mean, at that time when I watch, I mean, there's a couple, couple of things. I mean, number one, when I, when I watched it, I thought this is pretty damn close. And whenever I say pretty damn close, that's a four and three quarter star match. I got to be like 100%.

Okay. So, and I mean, two of the greatest wrestlers, I mean, literally after that match were just, you know, I mean, and this isn't, I'd already rated the match. But I just remember, I mean, these are two of the all-time grades. Sure. I helped me up and go, you know, what did you think? And I go, I thought that match was freaking all. awesome. That match was fantastic. It's like, you know, basically one was, if I tried to do a match like that, if I did a match like that, I'd have to fight my way at the dressing room because so many guys would have heat for me for killing your ruins finisher. And, you know, I mean, and you could say that about a lot of other matches too, but it was a perspective. And then, you know, another one was just, you know, to. And I think subconsciously, I thought the same thing.

when I watched Sean an Undertaker, the first one, which was great. And I almost did give it five stars. And some people think it's because of the dive, you know, the spot that went wrong. It's like, nah, it really wasn't. It was, it was, I'm going to say, there was a predictableness to it that I could feel. Like, I knew what they were doing. And sometimes that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it was so long and I always knew what they were going to do. And it was thrilling as hell.

but it was not it didn't give me that oh my god this was brilliant it was like okay this is what they were doing my turn your turn and and it worked it was like again like look it one match of the year i easily could have given it five stars but whatever it was you know when it was over it was like i was debating and i've done that at many matches you know i mean um you know where it's kind of like you know like is this four and three quarters or five well that means it's four and three quarters when i say that if i say five no debate then it's fine. And, you know, is it, is it just that you, do you not like the style of WWE matches versus New Japan or?

Well, I mean, I mean, I mean, I think, you know, there's certain dynamic aspects of it in the, in the sense of with New Japan, the wrestlers are, are technically so much better. And they're also better at building the perfect time for the finishes. But they wrestle a very different style. They do, and they do a lot of cross-ups where you think you know, I mean, you think you know where they're going and then they're not. They take you and they twist you. And with WWE, it is different in the sense that it's built-up bound repetitiveness and, you know,

teaching the audience to pop for certain moves and then doing them. And there's some cross-up, but it's really about repetitiveness and teaching people to pop for a certain thing. And you do it over and over and over again. So they learn this is where we pop. And in Japan, it is, it certainly exists, but there is a lot more thought to going that one step deeper of this is where we're going. And they're about to pop for this.

So we're going to do this. And then they're going to pop even bigger. And so that's kind of, I think that that's, you know, that and the tech, the better, they train in basics a lot better. so their stuff looks better. So there's always that aspect too. And they hit much harder. And I think that that adds to the realism aspect.

You know, I mean, it's just, you know, yeah, it's just, it's harder hitting. It's better technical. I mean, I'm talking to the top level. I'm not saying that there aren't guys in anywhere in every company who do that or can do that. But it's definitely more of a thing. And, you know, so that's probably where. You know, the New Japan matches will, you know, and again, like people who watch everything, you know, the New Japan matches usually end up getting, I mean, and in any of these, you know, not just me, but everyone, you can look at cage match or, you know, grapple when it existed or, or, you know, it was, it was consistent. You know, I would look at some of those and go like, man, you know, unless it's like a historical WWE match at a WrestleMania, which, which I actually think that a lot of the mania matches because they're at mania kind of get. overrated, but that's a good thing.

It's actually a good thing that you don't have to do as much, but you're at Mania, so it makes it a little bit more special. That, aside from those, it's very difficult to see a WWE match near the top of those lists at the end of the year. And, you know, but I mean, again, it's just,

it's fascinating to hear all this because it's interesting, yet, like, a example is like, for years, for years, not now because things changed, but for years, if you look at my ratings for shows. My NXT ratings were higher than, I mean, it's funny when the NXT W-A-W thing was going on.

So my NXT shows during the takeover era were always the highest. Yeah. Because they consistently put on great matches. And that's WWE product, you know, so it's not. But W.WE as a whole, not NXT, only has nine five-star matches in the entire history of WWE slash WWF. Yeah. And there was a stretch from 97 to 2000.

2011 when there were no five-star matches in WWE. I mean, that's, I don't know if that just doesn't seem to add up to me. That's an interesting thing. I, at the time, it was very, very hard to get a five-star match. And, I mean, it still is. It's super hard. The only differences is that guys are so much better now. Like, if I look back at my, at a match that I would have given five stars and I go

back 30 years, I look at it. And there are exceptions. And they're usually, you know, like in Japan, believe, or not. But, um, but for the, but for the, but for the, but even in Japan, I mean, I've seen like, you know, match that I'd give in five stars that I would look and go like, it's a four and a quarter four and a half star match today. You know, it's like, do you do the reverse? Do you look at matches now and go, man, I get that four and a quarter, but that really is a five star match now. No, no. I mean, I think that if anything, it's, I think it's actually harder, but there's more of them because you have,

you know, back then, um, you know, it, it was, wrestlers had a different mentality in the sense of now they know it's like the mentality of going into a show used to be you know

it wasn't there wasn't as much drive to put on this incredible match which says it and believe me that has its good and it's bad because because like again when I watch an AEW big show

just an example I feel like there's so many risks and it scares me you know and you know One risk is in, you know, like, WW, you might get one big risk spot in a match and it's memorable and everything like that. But when there's so many, like, I watch a derby or Sammy Gavar or somebody like that, and it scares me, you know, like the, the, the, they, and that's one of the reasons why also the matches are, you know, getting these great crowd reactions because they're working for crowd reactions.

Sure. And the crowd does react to it. And younger, hungrier guys are going to do crazier and crazier. things and we've seen that and you know it's it's good and it's bad you know was there was there a point in the 2000s when it was you know you were tougher on ratings because i think in the 2000s 2000s 2000 to 2010 you only had seven five star matches for that i didn't think there were as many great the match the matches did you just not watch tna i'm just so curious oh dna i watched gna religiously oh man i watched i mean i watched i watched every tna page

C&A pay-per-view. I saw, look, there were all kinds of four-star matches back then. And I actually, you know, if you look back on that, the different, you know, you'll see it. Five-star match is like,

I mean, to me, five-star match, even today should be like, okay, this is probably going to win match of the year. And when I look at that, you know, back then, you know,

I mean, like now, yeah, there's more because it's just like there's, there's so much and it gets over so big in the sense of, you know, because guys are working for that. Yeah, yeah. But even now, I mean, there's, you know, I'm going to hear a lot more about, you know,

this match should be five stars. And it's like, to me, it's like, if I don't think that this is going to be somewhere pretty damn high in the ballot for match of the year. Yeah. And it's not a five star match, especially now or even then. I mean, granted, there were years that, that four and three quarter, four and a half star matches one match of the year. And that would never, you know, well, that could happen now, too, you know, because again.

Well, what about like, what about the list of people who never had five-star matches? I don't even worry about it. I don't even worry about it because it's like, but like, I mean, these are legends. Eddie Guerrero, Triple-Age, Randy Savage, Crankel. And it's crazy. Rob Van Dam. How many four-star matches? It's four stars just what you should be looking at, not five.

Five means like it's a completely different animal. But then you got someone like Kenny Omega who has 10, five or better matches. Yeah. So. But then if you're like, well, if fours are what matters, then fours is what matters, you know. I mean, like, hey, Kenny O'Me, Will Osprey and Misawa, you know, those guys? Yeah. They're freaking incredible.

I mean, they're incredible. They're incredible. And they were put in positions to have those matches where most of these guys, Kurt, as an example, I mean, if Kurt was put in a position with a Missawa, if that's a guy, or maybe a Kobashi or whatever. I mean, he did, he did with Chris. And, you know, like I said, I came close with the, the, but it's like, I've always thought Kurt Angle was great. He's got tons of four-star matches, four-and-a-half-star matches, whatever. Four-star match with Matt Morgan.

But it's like, the reason he doesn't have a five, it's what, am I biased against him? I probably voted for him in the Hall of Fame years early. It's just, it's a certain match. And maybe, maybe he never had the perfect opponent. maybe, I don't know. I don't know. It's not, I don't like think and go like,

oh, you know, he's Kurt Angley deserves one. And nobody deserves one. People go like, why isn't this match five stars? I always like, man,

it's like this never, it's like, what didn't it have? And it's like, if it's over four, it had it. Yeah. So when you're talking about five,

five has to be when this thing's over, I'm going like, yeah, this, if it was in the past, I would go, this wouldn't match of the year. And now it's,

it's got to be, man, if this was, if this was, this should be talked about for a match of the year. And even four and three quarters means it should be talked about. And a five now would be a match where I would go like, this would have one match of the year every, you know, most years when I was a kid. But I mean, WWs had nine in their entire history. A.A.W.

And it's 21 in four years. A.EW's wrestlers work much harder to, to, in that style. CMLL, which is my favorite style of wrestling, by the way, was, I mean, I like all styles. How many CML have? I don't know. I'd have to pull that stat up. I'd say it might, I don't know. They might be zero. And I mean,

and because the CML style that I love is not something conducive. It's absolutely conducive to I think it is zero, yeah. Okay, well, there you go. My favorite style from childhood. Wow. And

the reason is just because the CML style is conducive to four-star matches, but there's something that makes a five-star match that their style is not conducive to. And I would say the same thing about WWE's style in general, although there are exceptions. Sometimes it's just the right thing and the right magic happens. And it is that. But NXT had that all the time. I don't give any.

There's many NXT matches. Because there's nine. Well, then there's your answer. You know, and that's the same company. But it's the style that they're working for. You know, the WVE's, the NXT style was a lot more based on, um, like what we talked about, trying new things.

Yeah, yeah. Taking risks. Yeah. Not starting injury risks, but trying new things or just going and, and, you know, giving guys more time in main events

or getting or matching guys up that you know are going to deliver a great match, which, which, you know, was part of that thing. Whereas with WWE, that's,

you know, you're doing fuge and you're doing, it's just a different thing. It's not really conducive. You know, it's like it's not as conducive to a five-star match. It's really not conducive to the style of match that you like, right? That's, um, no, I mean,

New Japan has 82 five-star better match. Yeah, well, I mean, I know. And the NBA has one. You have a new to view is nine. Like, it just seems like you, you know, there's a certain style of match that you prefer and that's, well, I mean, the way that, the way that they build in climax, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I broke my heart. My favorite match of all time is Rock versus Hogan, WrestleMania 18. That's a different style match. That was all heat. I mean, it was great for what it was.

That crowd reaction is unmatched. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. But it was a three star match. Yeah, well, I mean,

that was, you know, can we, can we right now make that maybe a four star match? Look, we're talking about, we're matches from decades ago. I think that probably,

you know, I mean, like, you know, maybe we should. But I don't look back. I'm looking at the future. Yeah.

But I mean, like, yeah, it's probably, I was probably wrong in that one in some ways. I mean, you know, heat wise, of course. But it's all about memories, you know, it's like that match, you know, if two other guys did that same match, move for move, right? It'd have been nothing special. But, you know, that's a part of it. And maybe that's what I was going like, okay, if the, if any two of the guys, I mean, but yeah, should have been four probably. Sure. Why not?

If you want to match. Whatever, whatever, you know, it's like, when I watch. it the day I watched it, it was very predictable to me and maybe that was the problem. You know, that I knew everything they were going to do when they did it which isn't necessarily bad either

because that is always, you know, whatever. I don't know. If you watch a match live, do you then go back and watch it? I try. I don't always do that. I try. Because absolutely, not only live, where you're sitting in the building. Yes. If you're up in the upper

deck, you will, there are sitting in front of you even. Who's sitting behind you? That all plays into it. Everything plays into it. If you were in the upper deck, you're going to notice certain things. And you're not going to notice little subtleties that you are if you're in the front row

or if you're watching on television. So it's, it's, there's things that carry bigger, um, to the big arena and there's things that carry better to the small arena. And I've seen matches where, I mean,

you like, you know, you'll, you know, like, yeah, I'll watch generally speaking, when I'm in the,

arena, I think the matches are not as good as when I watch them. And on television, and it should be like that because television should enhance. Yes. So that's why, like, again, I don't really like to go to, I do go to some AEW pay-per-views, but I really don't like to judge them. The last one I did, but I don't like to judge them based on being in the arena because you get a different feel than the thing. And with WWE, I really try, you know, I'm I mean, I religiously watch those things at home. I don't go to WrestleMania because the very thing is I'd have to go and rewatch that again, because I went to the one year I went to the two Tokyo domes.

And then I came home and the matches were so much better on TV than they were. And they were great live. Don't get me wrong. But it's just certain things like, you're far away. You don't feel the hard hitting as much. You know, and that's conducive to the Japanese style is the hard hitting. You know, I remember there was one match and I think it was, it might have been,

God, I remember who was Godo and Shabbat. I might have been, I'm not sure, but it was a godo match. Oh, he's a Godo and Kent actually. And I, you know, in the arena, I was like, I'm in the suites. And it's like, you know, they're beating the shit out of each other, but we're not really hearing it because the sound doesn't travel well in that building.

So I thought, match is all right, you know, and whatever, people are going, well, you missed, you missed. And I watch it, and I see what you mean. It's way, way better. And sometimes commentary, adds so much to a short. It should.

Kevin Kelly's great. That's another one. Kevin Kelly's great. But Michael Cole makes things feel really big too, I think, now. He can. He can. Maybe that's just my opinion. I mean, JR was really good at doing that.

J.R. was very good at hyperbole. They all were, you know, you know, it was funny because with New Japan and All Japan, when they announced in Japanese, the Japanese announcers by their emotion, because I did not know the words, but by their emotions, I would, you know,

people, even now, people will go to me today and go that they would rather watch the Japanese commentary than the English commentary with New Japan, which for me is like, dude, that's Kevin Kelly.

He's this great storyteller. But I understand that because the Japanese, the way the way the match flows and the way the announcers flow, it's really exciting. And I think that they, I think that the announcing, even when you don't know the words, absolutely enhances the matches, yeah. I think one of the biggest shifts over the last, definitely 10 years is how many people can now make money from pro wrestling. Back in the day, it was the people that were working in it. Now it's the people working in it, talking about it, selling merchandise around it.

Like that's such a big change here. And what's come off the back of that is so many people want to be wrestling content creators. they want to work in wrestling media. What's the advice that you have to someone who wants to start to work? I'm probably the worst person for advice because my advice is read, read, read, read, read, read a ton, learn history. And I don't know how important that is to today. But I mean, like, to me, it's like when I started, it's like all I wanted to learn was,

because the same was all sports. All I wanted to learn was history. All I wanted to learn from, you know, again, like I was very, very lucky that a couple promoters when I started were really good to me when it came to teaching. And it wasn't even necessarily teaching just when you learn from discussing. And it was kind of like why this works and why this doesn't work and why this thing that you think is going to work won't work. And it was a great framework. And it was very, very beneficial. Yet at the same time, times change, you know, in the sense of like lessons that I learned then. And they were absolutely

valuable lessons and they're still valuable in the sense that you have to consider them, that doesn't mean the same today. Like there was a period where you don't want to really put two baby faces against each other because even when they're there, there's don't have the right heat. It's not going to draw. Well, that doesn't even matter now. You put the right match together and the fans are going to buy and you put, you know, and again, now the lure is like the name of the show.

It's really not like we've got to peak this angle and we peak this angle. We're going to get this big house. you know it's like if you i mean i've seen them um do really huge matches on like a lower level pay-per-view show and it does a lower level paperfew show number so it's like you know now it's like wrestlingania road rumble summer slime right so that's it's it's just a it's just a different dynamic as far as what draws and everything like that but i think that one of the things you know it's like i want to just learn and learn and learn why why fans come to see it and again in those days that was your draw you know your your your your lifeblood when you guessed right you were up and what

lessons that you learned from your mistakes what led to bad houses what did they learn from bad houses and things like that so i was like so always wanting to learn that aspect because to me wrestling was a business and the promoters when you talked to them it was always this house that house was the size of the house it was always the right or wrong is what was the size of the house you know it's like oh i really like this angle didn't draw a big house was not a good angle you know what mean, oh, I don't like this guy. I don't think he's that good. This is his drawing record. If he wasn't good, he wouldn't be drawing. At the end of the day, that's the ultimate thing. It's like if you can make it work, if you can, if you can, if you can get the fans to, you know, now it's about getting the fans to watch on television, but then it was to getting the fans to pay money for the event.

Yeah. And it's like what type of personality works and what are fans buying. And that changes constantly. You know, I mean, the 80s were all about muscles, right? And then, you know, later, people were less concerned about muscles and it all became about action. There was a period when AEW started where I would see great matches, draw great numbers with people who should not have drawn great numbers because they didn't have the name value and stuff to do so. That also, as I expected and did happen, when you start doing that over and over and over again, it becomes normal. And like today, look, they had two incredible matches on Friday Rampage and nobody even talked about them two days later because we see those type of matches now constantly. So now it's not even, you know, I mean like a, you know, a great match that we would have, you know, one of the promoters, you know, told me, you know, like there are matches that if they were on TV, we would talk about for a month because they're so spectacular. And we didn't get great matches on TV in the 80s and the 90s.

and now we get 10 of them 8 to 10 of them every single week and nobody talks about them the next day because it's so the standard has gotten so high by by doing that you know I mean Lance Norm kind of said

like when every match is is great then what does a great match mean? You know it's like and there's a and that's the thing and you can you you know it's like I've even mentioned it to people sometimes it's like I don't think they really understand what I'm saying when I say this,

but it's like, I don't mean that they've overdone great matches so they should stop. But what I mean is there are so many great matches that as far as moving business metrics, a great match isn't going to do it anymore. Even if you're, you know, like even if a guy that you don't expect, what was the match? There was the match with Darby Allen and Orange Cassidy against Kwan and Toa Leona, I think it was, a couple weeks ago.

where it's like, I was so blown away by Toa Leona in that match. And if this would have been in the 1980s and somebody that you didn't know, put on that performance, everybody would be talking about the next day like, oh my God, big, agile, aggressive, hung in there with the stars and all this. But today, there's like nothing you can do because people see so many great matches. So to just, you know, you need, you know, your in ring is not going, is only going to get you over to a certain degree. and now it's back to,

it's almost back to who can rock the mic. And so I think people kind of like need, you know, and there was a time where, you know, you could really, people would just appreciate you for your wrestling. And there's people who do. But it's hard. It's hard to get over on wrestling when there is so much great wrestling. And it's hard to move ratings.

Is it that there's too much wrestling? Like every day of the week, you can watch wrestling on TV. Well, of course, there's too much wrestling because, but that's the nature of everything that. Is that a good thing? or is that a bad thing? It's a good thing economically because the content creators

make more money. It's a good thing for fans in the sense that they have more product to choose from. It's a bad thing to try to keep up with it. It's good for wrestlers that they have more jobs and it's bad because it's hard to stand out.

Because you go out there and go on TV and have a killer match and, you know, somebody's going to follow you in private killer match 15 minutes later. I think, I mean, in WWF, you know, on Ron Smackdown, I think to a degree, it's a little easier because they're not out there booking all one killer match after another like AEW would do.

But still, I mean, just like a couple weeks ago we had Santos Escobar and Mustafa Ali. You know, and I mean, they did as good as you're going to do in nine minutes. There were just some spectacular things. They worked. The crowd was into them. I mean, nobody talked about the next day. Nobody even talked about the, you know, like I go, oh, my God. God, what a great match.

And it was kind of like, and then people, yeah, it was, but what is it, is it better than 10 other matches we saw that week? And it wasn't, you know, so like I said, it is so hard to get over and guys are going farther and farther for, and I would say less and less rewards. So that's the sad part of it. Yeah. Is that guys are, you know, and the one thing that the injury rate bothers me because. it's like it's one thing like when mc foley did this this thing he did okay he made his whole career off of that one match now guys will try to copy that and and they're just going to get injured you know um and so you know the high injury rate bothers me a lot you know so um but you know it's guys who are just they're trying to get over they're trying to get over on their spectacularness and because there's so much spectacularness it's it's it's hard to get over the that way. And like I said, like for young guys, like I

would say, you know, obviously learn to make your wrestling look good, but really, really, really, really work on your mic work and things like that. And, you know, because it, but even then, it's like, only a couple guys get that chance to do the mic work. I mean, there are.

But I think that's a great point. Like, when you think of what some people would consider the greatest of all time, the rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rick Flair, Hulk Hogan, they weren't, I mean, the rock, Stone Cold, they weren't great in the ring, but they were so good on the mic.

They were pretty good. I mean, I consider the Rock real good. I actually consider Stone Cold, borderline, great in the ring. But yeah, no, it was the right character at the right time. And great on the mic, great at pushing the story forward, getting you interested in the match. That's generally speaking,

that's the most important thing is the mic work, generally speaking. There are, but then there's guys, guys, you know, like, look, if you ask me, like, you know, the best Mike guys now, one of the best Mike guys now to me is Eddie Kingston, doesn't really get a lot of mic time. And I think that Eddie Kingston can cut a promo with anyone. But, you know, so, so, but at the same time, I think that I don't know that people consider,

you know, I mean, the fans definitely like him a lot. Sure, absolutely. So maybe he could be, you know, maybe he's a guy who could be used better. Yeah. I mean, I think when you talk about people who are great on the mic, MJF's name comes up. MJF's great on the mic, of course, of course, of course. You know, I mean, there's some people, you know, but he's his delivery.

And look, MGF works really hard on what he says, you know, I mean, punk the other night. What a, you know, the great delivery, you know, I mean, it's like, and, you know, he had a purpose of what he wanted to say and, you know, people liked it and everything like that. Yeah, what do you think of punk's return? In what sense? I mean, there's a million things I think about it, but. Yeah, I just feel like after. After what happened at the all-out press conference, it was kind of like, oh, my gosh,

like I don't know if he could ever come back. He's just aired his grievances with the boss sitting right next to him. Yeah, well, he got away with it because he can draw. If somebody was somebody who couldn't draw, they'd never be back. But look, if Connor McGregor, if the things, I could name 20 things Connor McGregor did, that he would not even be in UFC or Floyd Mayweather. You know what I mean? Similar, right?

Yeah. But Mike Tyson, you know what I mean? I mean, it's like, but when you can draw, you know, you will always get that chance. I mean, I know, I mean, I did not know 100% he would be back in AEW, but I knew he would be back wrestling somewhere. You know, I mean, I know people in WWE, you know, it was like, you know, they're not going to take him. And it's like, you know, maybe yes, maybe no, but it was immaterial because Tony wasn't going to release him. But I mean, the thing is, is at some point, at some point, I thought he would be back and probably in AEW. you know, it didn't happen exactly the way I expected, but it did happen.

And, you know, it's because he can draw. And a guy who has a history of drawing will always get that chance until, you know, the wheels are off, are totally off. That's all. Yeah. Okay, a few more questions before we wrap this up. What's the best match you've ever seen live? Whoa, live. That's a tough one.

I used to say Toyota Yamada easily. in 92 in all Japan women. But since then, boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. And you know, Megan Tonahashi at the Tokyo Dome was way up there. MJF and Brian Danielson this year was way up there. I'm trying to think what other ones. I sat in the same arena as you and I watched, I think, one of the best matches I've seen in person,

which was Cody versus Dustin. Cody versus Dustin was That was an excellent match Yeah Storytelling them I mean I had tears in their eyes And that match was over

My son My son was crying The two girls next to me Were crying I was crying I was I was crying Yeah I would say

If you're looking at something That made you cry The Toyota Ammona match That I watched would be there And then Missawa And Jumbusaruta And Cody and Dustin

as far as, I mean, matches that, it's matches that made you cry. If that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, with all the wrestling that you watch and talk about, what do you do when you're not watching wrestling, Dave?

Oh, man. I watch way too much. I hang out. I hang out. You know, great, great relationship. I love my kids, you know. And that's what I, it's basically it. Do you have any other, like, random hobbies that we'd be like, man, I never do that they've collected coins.

No. I mean, I would if this was not so time-consuming. And it was, like in the 90s, I had many hobbies. But, you know, and I would be, you know, I cover, you know, I'd follow the NFL. I was a big, big NFL fan growing up, big NBA fan growing up, but the time isn't there. So it's basically, it's wrestling my kids. And, you know. And some UFC pepper.

in there, right? Yeah, I watch UFC. I follow it. You know, look, like I grew up, I grew up with, let's say grow up, but I mean, I, I was the first reporter ever to cover UFC. Wow. And I covered it with pro wrestling for years and years and years. And I worked Yahoo and I worked at MMA fighting covering UFC.

So I invested many, many, many decades, you know, three decades into MMA. And so I absolutely keep up with it. And I do watch the big shows. And I would watch every Saturday, but it's just too tough to do that now. And I do watch the big fights. Yeah, it's a lot. It used to be once a month. And now it's every weekend.

It's every Saturday night. Yeah, yeah. So I try to watch the main event. And then on the, you know, the pay-per-views, I'll watch the pay-per-view. Sometimes I'll watch the ten matches. Sometimes I'll just watch the top five. Or nine matches. Sometimes I'll watch the top five.

But, you know, it's it's just so much. And especially like, you know, his wrestling keeps adding new stuff. It's, it's more and more time consuming. So it's, yeah, I have no downtime, I mean, at all from, you know, because it's either, it's either, you know, family, essentially. It's either family or it's wrestling with a little UFC thrown in. There's not really much, you know, yeah, I went to a concert Saturday night. But that's family, you know. Yeah, I went, you know, miniature golfing.

on Sunday and, you know, which we, you know, or, you know, go out to dinner with friends and things like that. I do all of that. And I have a, you know, I definitely have a friends family base that we try to see as often as possible. And I'm pretty good at doing that, you know, as far as keeping with my childhood, a couple childhood friends and things like that. But it's like, I don't have a time where I'm going to sit down and watch a sitcom, you know, or Seinfeld or something. Although I did watch that a couple times, you know, when I was on a, on like a weekend away. We're just kind of turning on the TV and watch Seinfeld and laugh and stuff. But I don't do that, you know, which I could, you know, but wrestling is very, very time-consuming.

I feel like you can't take a vacation because then you'll miss raw and dynamite and rampage and smackdown on and collision. I'm supposed to do a bunch of vacations this year. So, but it's hard to do. It's so hard. Yeah. I could just see you sitting on the beach, like watching NXT on your phone or something. No, I won't do that. I don't do that.

When I'm off, when I'm off, I'm off. Good. It's like when I'm with my friends, when I, when I'm with, when I'm with my friends or my family, wrestling, I won't say never comes up because, you know, my son will bring it up and everything like that. And it'll come up with some and it'll come up a little bit with friends. But I have a group of friends where it never or rarely or never comes up. and and I never bring it up like even even with with my family um you know um I rarely bring it up you know I mean like we'll go but you know yeah I try to take you know them to uh like Vegas and stuff for the for the thing I took my son and his in his um fiancee and things like that so I try

to do that but that's more of um you know um it's just a time that I can spend um I mean I always want to spend time with them that's all so yeah so I abide But yeah, it's always about spending time with people. There's no downtime. I've enjoyed spending this time with you, Dave. And I want to thank you for giving me the time to show this conversation with me and get some insight into who you are and how you work and your take on pro wrestling. I think it's fascinating.

Yeah, well, I'm glad you got to do this. I mean, it was really interesting. I mean, I love to talk wrestling, you know, a lot. Yeah, we could talk for another six hours. I'm going to have you on again sometime soon, if that's okay. Sure, we can do that again, absolutely. I end every conversation with gratitude because it's such an important part of my life. I wake up every day.

I say out loud three things I'm grateful for. And I end every conversation with that too. So what are three things in your life, Dave, that you're grateful for right now? I'm grateful for my kids. I'm grateful for my friends. I'm grateful for, you know, everyone in my life. I have so many wonderful people close to me in my life, you know, and I'm grateful for the ones who are, you know, and I think about them all the time. I'm grateful for the ones who were important in my life that are no longer here.

And, you know, grateful for animals. And, yeah, you know, just I'm very grateful for the life I've been allowed to live. You know, that, you know, I look back and I've had a lot, a lot, a lot of lucky breaks. And, you know, but. I've worked hard for them. I've worked so hard in this life. It's, it's incredible. I mean, it's, when I look back, you know, it's like, you know, I've probably written more words on sports than anyone who ever lived. I'm going to guess. And you're not showing up. I mean, that's the thing. I want to acknowledge you. You keep showing up and you have been showing up

for 80s, 90s, 2000s, 20s, 20s, that's over five decades. Yeah, yeah. And every, every issue. I mean, I strive to get those issues as good as possible, you know, and, you know, it's like I take great pride when there's a big story that I can, you know, nail it. It's really, you know, and it's, it's, it's time consuming and it's very, you know, you got to think, you got to think a lot. You got to think about so many different things. I would think it's all consuming, not just time consuming. It consumes a lot. Consumes your thoughts. It consumes your time. It consumes your effort. It consumes a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why, like, when it's gone, like, if I go to the beach, right? Yeah. I do not think wrestling. I mean, when I'm away.

I don't like to think wrestling when I'm not. But, you know, like, look, I'm thinking wrestling 18 hours a day. So it's like it's plenty of time, so to speak, maybe not 18, but on Thursdays it's 18. That's for sure. Well, Dave, thank you so much. Such a pleasure to be able to chat with you. Okay. Very welcome.

And it was really, it was really fun. we'll do it again sometime soon probably we'll do the next one in person how about that great awesome that'd be easy yeah well there we go my friends i really loved that chat with dave i hope that you did too he's a great guy and i just hope that this showed you a little bit more of who dave the actual person is not just dave the reporter but like who dave the guy is and i appreciate you for being here right now listening to the entire episode please support our sponsors use the code c at bluechew.com to get your first month for free. All you have to do is pay $5 for shipping.

And snap a screenshot. Let us know what you thought of this episode. Let us know what stood out for you. And tag us. Dave is at Dave Meltzer W-O-N. I am at Chris Van Fleet. And if you're not subscribed or following the show, please take a second right now to do that wherever you're listening.

We've got a ton more great episodes, great guests as, man, six months left in the year. like obviously, but like how is the year six months already gone? We have less than six months left in the year. Crazy. But we've got a lot of great stuff as we finish up 20, 23, strong. Here's a quote I've been thinking about. John D. Rockefeller, the secret of success is to do the common thing uncommonly well.

Be great and be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air.

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