Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Dijak on WWE Exit, AEW, Retribution, T-Bar, Cody Rhodes, Vince McMahon

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Donovan Dijak (@dijakfye) is a professional wrestler previously signed to WWE. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Toronto, Ontario to talk about his WWE departure and the letter he posted to social media, being backstage at AEW Forbidden Door, RETRIBUTION and the original pitch for the group, returning to NXT and his relationship with Shawn Michaels, being on the receiving end of a brutal Cody Rhodes chair shot, what next for him and more! Quote I'm thinking about: Let’s go invent tomorrow rather than worrying about what happened yesterday. - Steve Jobs Sponsors: PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank which was designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/ PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT for a first deposit match up to $100! TIMELINE NUTRITION: Save 10% off your first order of Mitopure at http://timeline.com/INSIGHT BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv BLUECHEW: Use the code CVV to get your first month of BlueChew for FREE at http://bluechew.com ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and experience financial freedom: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv PLUNGE: Get $150 off your Plunge with the coupon code CVV150 at http://plunge.com For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, thank you for the lovely introduction, Samantha Irvin. Welcome back to another one here on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleet. Hope it was a great weekend for you. Thank you for being with us. And thank you for helping to make insight. Say it with me. The number one wrestling podcast on the planet.

And if you've ever enjoyed any of the interviews we've ever done on the show, could I please ask you to hit follow? And also hit that rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts. We are currently the number four sports podcast right now on Spotify, like all sports shows. And I know with your support, we can continue to keep growing and we can continue to keep getting big interviews in person. The bigger the show gets, the bigger the guests can keep getting. Feast your eyes. Donovan DiJack on the show today. And what a ride he's been on for the last few weeks. On June 27th, he announced on Twitter that his contract with WWE wasn't going to be renewed,

that he was a free agent immediately, and he's made his mark on quite a few independent shows in the last few weeks. He was also backstage at AEW's Forbidden Door Paperview. And I just think it's really unfortunate that a guy that talented never really got a chance to shine on the main roster in WWE. He had some incredible matches in NXT, but then got put into Retribution as T-Borkewarm, and never had a chance to rebound from that. So with that said, I am so excited to see what he does from here.

And I loved this conversation. I hope that you love it as well. Snap a screenshot. Let us know that you're listening and tag us. He's at DiJack, Fyee. Of course, feast your eyes. I'm at Chris Van Vleet. If you follow him on Twitter, you know he's insanely active on there.

So snap a screenshot and tag him on there so he can see it. And here we go. Enjoy this conversation with Donovan DiJack. We're making this happen in the flesh. Let's do it. Here we go. Thank you for making the time and making the drive to do this. It is my pleasure.

Any excuse to hit the road. I'm a road warrior, figuratively speaking, not literally, even though I was in a gimmick in WWE that was very close to the road warriors. But yeah, no, I like to drive. So I'm okay with this. This picture on your shirt gets me every single time. People think it's Photoshop. Yeah, no.

So very slightly Photoshop. Okay. So if you look at my, it's the pinned tweet on my Twitter profile, I'm not going to say X. I can't either. Refuse to say X. Because then what's the verb? Like I X'd. Ziet is what they want you to say.

No way. If you say Zit, we're going to. fight on the spot. Zee sounds like gross. It's Papa Zeezee. Man, I zeed it all over the place. No, my pinned tweet on Twitter is, uh, is this picture. And if you look closely, it's, I'm wearing my little NXT jacket, but because I wanted to monetize it and it's my picture and I own it, I didn't want a little bit of WWE in there because I don't want to, the old cease and desist, stop making money off the NXT logo. So I just, I got, I've gotten pretty good

Photoshop. So I just a little bit of, a little bit of shading, a little bit of spray paint, and it just looks like a black jacket. How much did that hurt? Not. Okay. So when it happened, not at all, right? So what happened is a vengeance day against Wesley finishes springboard into the ring. He super kicks me out of it. Boom. That sets up the cardiac kick, I think he calls it. It's like a backhand spring play like kick um so i'm so i take it boom and i sell down and it's my left hand right so i so i plant with my left hand to do kind of like a shin skate like like one of these things and as i'm planting i have so much adrenaline that i just i just throw my hand in the ground like jam it in there because i you know the way i move and sell i try to make everything feel as as realistic as possible

and as i'm doing that i can feel my finger just jam into the ground which happens sometimes like it happened earlier in that match with my thumb. And sometimes you just feel a little, a little, you can feel it hyper extend. But then I just kind of look at it and go like this and it's fine and it's whatever. This time I looked at it and it was pointing the wrong way. Yeah, fingers aren't supposed to bend like that. So I, so I looked at it. I know the finish is coming, right?

And I got about 10 seconds while he does a little dance or whatever and jeez it up. So while he's doing that, while he's posing or whatever thing he does, I'm, trying to twist my finger back into place. Oh, no. So if you watch the video, I'm like going like this. And then I realize he's back handspring. So I just kind of beat the finish. Boom, I'm laying there.

One, two, three. I look at my finger. I haven't fixed it yet. So I'm like, whatever. So I just start yelling at the cameraman. Just screaming at him to get the shot. I'm like, shoot my finger. Because I'm just holding it there like I'm unconscious,

but holding my finger. And they got a really good shot of it. So we, none of that hurt, right? I mean, there's the initial impact and you can tell it's jarred or whatever, but no more than anything else that happened in a, you know, a good physical match. We get to the back and I've had these injuries before, right? This is, this one's the wrong way because of basketball. This one's the wrong way because of football.

So we're working our way all the way across. Like the 10 little piggy's here. Yep. Yep. So we worked our way to this one. So these ones, this happened in the middle of a football game and the doctor just one, two, three, boom, which sucked. This one I had to go to the hospital for them to pull out. So this one, we're in the back.

And there's a doctor on site, thankfully, right? Because you have to be a doctor to relocate a finger, I guess. So I guess they get like three good poles before you decide that it's not going. And so it's like one, two, three, and the, that sucked. Those were extremely painful. But the last one was like feet on the table. No way. And then we're like, if we pull any harder than this, it's going to break.

So you had to be taken to a local medical facility. Yes. Not a hospital. And so this, yeah, right. So this picture is taken by the fellow who brought me there. And because I was texting my buddy, uh, men's sore. and he was like, hey, you should get a picture of that. That'd be a pretty cool picture.

A perfect finger for us. I was like, you know what? That would be a pretty cool picture. So, yeah, so this is in front of the local medical facility in wherever we were, North Carolina, I think. And yeah. That's a badass picture. So we got an x-ray of the finger and everyone thought it was going to be broken. It turned out it was not broken.

So they put some, I'm not a doctor, obviously. So they put some something in there and it numbed it out. and loosened it up and just popped it right back. So it was just dislocated. Yeah. And I told Sean I'd work the next night and they were like, you will not be working the next night. But I would have been happy to.

I think they made me take like three weeks off for that. Well, I mean, I think that's fair. Right. I mean, you know, fair for them, maybe. I didn't want to do it. I was coming off a really hot angle. This was my first, this is my first premium live event in a very, very long time. So I was all hyped up about it.

But yeah. How are you feeling now? Like you're a free man now. How are you feeling? Excited. Excited. Yeah. It took a little bit of time to get over the initial waves of emotions and mostly,

you know, disappointment and frustration and fear. But now I'm in a really good spot because I've had a good solid week of, let's call it, return on investment, right? Where it's, because there was a, there was a window of time there where I didn't know what was in my future. You know, I, I had a general idea of what might happen and people were telling me and my agents that I work with were, were telling me. And that's, that's Paragon Talent Group, Steve Kay and Mojo Raleigh, who have been outstanding throughout this process. I, I've said this a number of times and I, hand to God, I genuinely do not know where I would be right now without them. Just confirm.

Fused and a thousand-yard stare, them and my wife and my family. Because that's the group of people who knew, right? And my close, close friends who I told just because I needed like somewhere to vent and like coping mechanisms and stuff. But yeah, so, but this past week has been outstanding for me because it's, it's validating in a lot of ways to receive such a response and to receive. not just a response like online because that's, you know, that's one level of the pie, but really more of a tangible response like you're booked here, you're booked here,

you're booked here, you have seminars here, you're a trainer here now. You know, there's just this outpouring of like, hey, you still have a lot of value in this business at a point where by definition, I didn't feel like I had a lot of value because I was told by the company that I loved and to a certain extent trusted and, wanted to be with that we don't value you at all. And that's that's it was heartbreaking. It was, uh, scary, right? Because I've, I've been in this business for, um, 12 years now and seven of it has been

with WWE. So the majority of my pro wrestling career has been with WWE. And a lot of people don't know that, right? Because I've, there's been years where I just kind of sat and developmental at the performance center. There were years where I was on main event as T-Barr and that just sections of my career that people weren't watching, right? Because you either couldn't or there just wasn't a lot of access to it or whatever the reasons be. So, or just people who only watch the main roster, right? And

if you only watch the main roster, which is a huge section of the WWE audience, then you only know me as T-Barr. And that's not even me. So there's a section of fans out there that don't even know I exist in this form other than the guy who looks like this, but was named T-Barr and lost twice on Rod, to Omas and in a battle royals. And that's if you watch religiously, right? So you might have missed those episodes. You're in a unique spot where your contract ends and then you're able to work immediately. A lot of people have the 90 days, which almost feels like a cool off time.

Like, yeah, you're not going to be here anymore and you can't do anything for three months. You were able to immediately, next day, be in a wrestling ring. Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. So on the one hand, the 90 days. is like you mentioned, it's a cool off period, but it's also a good time to get your ducks in a row. You also get paid during that time. You're getting paid, right?

So that's obviously a key factor. Three months out is about how most booking on the indie and meet and greet scene kind of works. So you can fill your schedule relatively easy. Like my November and December are looking pretty good right now. My July is not. So I had to, you know, there's some favors in there. There's some guys who I'm very close with. There's companies that had to rearrange their schedule entirely just to try to sneak me in

because they think it'll be a worthwhile investment. So it's good that I'm fortunate in that capacity. But, you know, there's some vacant spots in there because. It's just difficult to rearrange your booking in your whole show. And they have budgets and budgets. Yeah, two weeks out, right? It's like, we can't, we can't afford this. You know, we need to shift that.

And, you know, but what are you free in August? And then it's like, no, I'm not free in August. My whole August got booked out in like three minutes. So it's, it's kind of this, it's a double-edged sword, right? But the good part of it is, you know, the, the buzz, obviously. I timed the tweet with the letter very specifically to be at a time where it would I was hoping it would kind of be the only pro wrestling story of that day, right? Yeah, how'd you time that?

Just Thursday. I was like, well, there's, I mean, there's wrestling on every day of the week, so I had to pick one of them. I get it. So Monday's Raw, Tuesday's the fallout of Raw. I was trying to avoid. Wednesday's Dynamite, Thursdays. Smackdown Saturday's the fallout I get it right yeah so so that was kind of the idea um behind it and also just the timing with the my availability being two days later so I just wanted there to

still be buzzed by the time I was and again it's not like I had a ton of options you know I was not given a large window of time to work with here so people handle not being resigned in various different ways. You chose to write this very well-worded letter, put it out on social media. What made that your approach? So I wanted, just in terms of my mental approach to it, I gave a lot of thought to what I wanted to do and how I wanted to approach this, right? Because I was in a very unique situation. I can't think of anyone else who was in a situation like that, because it's only recently that they really started letting contracts expire. And from what I can tell, everyone who had that situation was notified decently well in advance,

like maybe a month or two out. So I don't know that there's a lot of situations where it was such a short window of time before the notification happened. How short are we talking? Well, I mean, I was on WWE speed. And that aired, I think, 10 days after we taped it. And by the time that aired, I had already been notified. So I was on WWU programming, knowing that I was not going to be with this company anymore,

or at least having been told that, right? It wasn't set in stone. There was the possibility that it was a negotiation tactic. You know, there was a lot of things on the table. but and then that that tweet because I assume they have some sort of deal with Twitter in some capacity or some sort of payment and Hunter tweets about it every week and mentions it. So so he's tweeting about me. The tweet is on there.

It's posted to the top of at WWE on Twitter and it stays there until the next week. So I was the pinned tweet on Twitter under WWE one day before. for I posted that. Wow. Yeah. So that's how, and it's speed, right? But at the same time that I think 2.5 million people saw that that post. So that's a relevant match in the WWE umbrella.

Yeah. And then almost immediately you're getting this information from me that's like, they're not interested in me anymore. They didn't even make it off. So I knew that I had those. options and frankly lots of people were telling me to take a different approach mentally it was it was suggested to me that i i take a let's call it a more classical approach you know people have done this before where it's um and who knows what situation is what but uh the the

standard approach is is thank you for everything I had a great time at WWE. I'm appreciative of everyone. We just couldn't agree on a new deal. And I'm going to go out and I'm going to make a name for myself, right? And I'm excited for what's next. I'm excited for next. You keep it vague.

You say we couldn't come to terms, whatever. It makes you seem like they offered you, but you feel like you're worth more and you're going to go prove yourself, whatever. So I had that option on the table. And that maybe there's a chance that another company sees that. And they go, oh, he's, he's worth X amount of dollar, whatever. It becomes a negotiating thing. My opinion was there was more value, maybe not monetary value, but there was more intrinsic

value with the fans and with trust and just how I felt personally about everything in telling the complete and entire truth. Because I didn't, I don't feel like. the people who support me, support me just for no reason. I feel like there's a large group of my fan base that loves how blunt and honest I am. And maybe that's what gets me in trouble, right? Maybe the blunt honesty is what rubbed the right people the wrong way, right? But it's what it's got you over on Twitter.

Yeah, you know, and listen, I've talked before about the conversation that I had with CM Punk. And it was influential to me. I could see my career trending in a, maybe not my career, but I could see my support trending in a better direction after that. Once people started to see the real me and started to feel my honesty and feel my upfrontness and things like that, maybe my career suffered. I don't know. You know, it's hard to say because I don't have an explanation.

I was not told what happened in any capacity. So I can't say, oh, I should have done that. I shouldn't have done that. I should, because I just don't know. What specifically does Sampunk say that kind of changed your opinion on this? You know, I'd actually like to keep that to myself. Yeah. It's, it's meaningful to me.

And it's, it's not anything revolutionary, but it's, it's, it's, a concept that I had heard before and when you hear it coming from him and with his success in this business and with the things that he's done in this business, good or bad, right? I was just in the AW locker room. There's a lot of people there that do not like him, right? That's not my business. And quite frankly, the first time I met him in the NXC locker room at Battleground was it, the first time he walked in, my guard was way up, right?

because I'm, I wouldn't say I'm friends with Adam Page, but I've roomed with Adam Page. I've wrestled Adam Page. I know him. We, we are friendly. We've spoken privately many times. So my guard is up. You know, this, he walks into the locker room. It's like, I, I've heard lots of not good things about you in a locker room.

You know, he was nothing but friendly. He was nothing but kind. He was giving. He watched all the. He came to TV the next day. He gave feedback there. So my personal interaction with him has been nothing but positive. I can understand how it hasn't been with other people, and that's okay.

You know, we all have different interactions with different people. Some of my very close friends are also friends with people who despise me. And I know for a fact that they despise me. But, you know, that's the way that the world works sometimes. And, you know, it's, it's okay. It's okay. We don't, I think professional wrestling especially is a good place to not worry about clicks and who's friends with it. Just mutual respect for everybody until proven otherwise to you on a personal level.

You were just backstage at AW, forbidden door. How did that come together? Um, it was a, it was a, basically a choice, right? There is a guest. Well, what's the alternative to get like, like I, like I snuck in? Well, there's also that like you were having a meeting, you know, like that's, there was no meeting. No, no meeting took place. Did you talk to Tony when you were there?

I did not talk to Tony. No. So, so what happened was, um, I was having these conversations. about what's going to happen with this letter, how is it going to be received. I feel strongly about it. I'm going to present it this way. I feel like this is genuinely authentically me. This is how I would do this.

I wanted to look like this, et cetera. And once we came to that conclusion, it's like, okay, well, let's, pardon the pun, but let's go all in on this, right? So some phone calls were made. We saw where we could go. And Steve has enough connections at AEW where it was, I don't know who's in charge of green lighting who goes backstage, but in some capacity I was approved to be backstage. And I was welcomed. I was welcomed with open arms.

Tons of my old friends were there. I got to have a great long conversation with swerve, just all sorts of guys. Tommy End. Because what happens in WWE, right, is you don't. see these guys, the way they leave is a slow, slow process, right? It's just like one guy's gone one week and one guy's gone another week and then two guys are gone the next way. And I'm not saying it's week by week, but we're talking about releases now, right?

Most of these guys were released, unfortunately, because they didn't start the real process of letting contracts expire. And quite frankly, most of the people whose contracts they let, expect, fire don't pop up on A.A.W. Because it's, it's just, those wrestlers tend to be more in demand in that style. So, so these are guys that I haven't seen in a long time.

But on the other end of the coin is, I'm now realizing that the last time I was at Raw was the last time I'm ever going to be in a WWW locker room. And that hits in a, personal aspect because a lot of those guys are my friends, right? There's, there's a ton of crossover now from NXT, all the guys I was with for the past two years. There's a bunch of them now in that locker room. There's guys that I was in the locker room with as T-bar and

retribution and afterwards for a long time. So I'm familiar with all these guys and lots of them are my friend, my friends. So I'm, you know, I'm dealing with that aspect of it as well. Because it becomes this thing. And I was talking about this with ricochet, right? Because he, He knew he wasn't coming back at that point. They brought him on the car and that was done. Yeah, they run off. So we all, yeah, so we all set our goodbyes because we just assumed he was, even he like you're not sure, right?

They can do whatever they want, but he assumed that that was his last straw. So we're saying goodbye to each other. And he and I have had conversations about, you know, our contracts and what they look like in the days and stuff like that. So, so I said goodbye to him. not knowing whether I'll see him in five years or two weeks, right? And we had a laugh about that. I'm like, hey, man, I'll see you maybe in five years, maybe next month.

And we laughed about it. It's the funny thing about wrestling. Right. And it's good that, you know, I'm sure I'll run into him shortly. But on the other end of the coin, I said goodbye that day to a bunch of guys. And in the back of my head, I thought this might be the last time I see these guys. But once it happened, now I know it's the last time I'm going to see those guys in a professional capacity, right? Maybe I'll see them in the street right now or something.

But in terms of a locker room, sharing a locker room with them, it's going to be a while, if ever that I ever share a locker room with these guys ever again. That's disappointing. So going to AEW was the other side of that, which is I get to see all of these guys all at once. And it's amazing. And not only do I get to see the wrestlers, but I get to learn. because I've never been backstage. I get to learn about all the production staff at AEW, which is a ton of old Ring of Honor guys where I used to work.

So I'm seeing these guys first time in seven years. And I'm like, this is amazing. You know, I'm seeing so many faces, so many friendly faces. And I get to meet a bunch of new people as well that I've never met before. So it was a really positive experience for me on a personal level. So now it comes down to like, what do you want to do next, right? Like you've got the ability to go anywhere, do anything? Do you want to make a name for yourself on the Indies again

and work as many different places as you can? Or are you looking to get signed somewhere? I am keeping my options open. There's literally nothing in any direction that I'm leaning because my professional life has been so directed for so long that having all these available options, and I'm not saying that everybody's clamoring for me, but just the possibility of multiple scenarios

is very exciting for me. As of this moment, I'm just gung-ho on the independent circuit because that's what's directly in front of me right now. And I'm very comfortable in that scenario because I've done it before. So I don't know that there's a lot left to prove in ring per se, but there's a lot, there's a ton left for me to prove, how do I want to phrase this? As an entity. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I see what you mean. I think most people who go to independent shows or watch them or stream them online or at least generally familiar with me as a professional wrestler, right? You know, two months ago I was on stand and deliver on WrestleMania weekend in a match that's, again, it's a subjective thing, but a lot of people called it one of the best matches of WrestleMania weekend. That wasn't long ago. So lots and lots and lots of people saw that.

and they're at least generally familiar with me as a proficient professional wrestling. There is a big difference, though, between being a WWE fan and being a wrestling fan. That's true, yeah. And it kind of, it's like what you were saying before. There's a lot of people that only watch main roster WWE, and they've only seen two T-bar matches. Right. And that's it. Yeah.

So I don't think I'm going to, I don't think I'm going to get to those people on the independent circuit is what I'm saying. Yeah. I think when I go to independent shows, what you're going to get. get from me is exactly what you expect, right? You're going to, you're going to see, hey, this is the, this is the guy I've seen. I'm familiar with his work. He always kills it. He always knocks it out of the park. Let's see what he's bringing to my little town. And I started last night in my hometown, Worcester, Massachusetts, and I don't know how to phone it in. I don't have an off switch. If there's something that you don't lack, it's intensity.

Yeah. I, I, because there's some guys who, who go and maybe. Maybe I should be this guy, right? You go to the independent circuit and you, you tone it down a little bit and you're, just get your stuff in. Right. Yeah. You know, do the best hits, the crowd pops and whatever. I don't have that in me.

So that very well may shorten my career, by the way. So in that aspect, I have some ground to make up, right? Because I can't turn it off. I can't give less than 100%. So I need to get over. even more efficiently and more effectively. Right? So that's what I mean in that sense by building an entity.

Yeah. Because the wrestling is only a piece of it. And if everybody, if everybody is generally aware of my wrestling, now I need to make them generally aware of my character, of my presence, of my, my presentation, my music, my catchphrases, because all of that stuff is paramount in getting over with a fan base. And Cody's in it.

outstanding example of that, right? He wanted to prove, because I was there, right? I was in the second locker room that Cody Rhodes ever walked into on the independent circuit. And he and I were on a ton of the same shows. We rode,

we were the road warriors together with each other, riding all to the independent circuits. I was in Germany all around with him. So I know what chips he had on his shoulder. And a lot of that for him was in ring, because he knew how good he was in ring. And he needed to prove that to that independent fan base.

The independent fan base is more familiar with me in ring at that point, at this point than they were with him at that point. Yeah. Right? Because I've been on the Indies. I've done PWG. I've done every indie, basically, from 2015 to 2017. There's also new fans that I need to get acquainted with and things like that.

But also what Cody took under control was his presentation. And I'm, I'm now in control of my presentation. That feels good because for seven years, I've been out of control of my presentation, for the most part. NXT and Sean Michaels really did a great job with my presentation. So I want to be upfront and thankful about that because we worked as a collaboration to do that. But now I get to take what we built there and continue to build with it.

Whereas in WWE, that might have been an option. But at the end of the day, you got to do what they say. So is there that same chip on your shoulder now? There is a massive chip on my shoulder in terms of building my brand. Just everything revolves around building my brand, right? Because for the most part, the vast majority of people who are familiar with me are familiar with me as a WWE entity. And also just who you are on Twitter.

Like if we can bring your Twitter persona to the Indies and bring that to life, I mean, you're going to hit it out of the park. This is an exact conversation that I had with Johnny Russo, the head writer of NXT. I'm paraphrasing, but it was something to the effect of, hey man, your Twitter's a lot more interesting than your TV character. And I was like, yeah, I agree. Let's do more of that. But they're also in an interesting spot where, you know, they run a, you know, they run a, television product and like at the end of the day Sean Michaels has to answer to USA in some capacity right so so it it got to a point at the near the end of my NXT run where I started

taking more risks and when you take a risk in WWE sometimes it doesn't immediately pay off you get feedback that encourages you not to do that anymore, right? Because they have to answer to the powers of being, et cetera. But then you observe the overall feedback and how it worked out for you and how it panned out. And, you know, that's why guys tell me to take risks. You know, I worked with John Cena and his number one advice was take calculated risks. So all of these guys who've had so much success in the business, keep relaying a similar message, it's like, okay, I guess that's what I have to do, right?

And, you know, Cody says the same thing, Drew says the same thing, all these guys, they took a huge risk and left WWE or the guys that didn't leave WWE and just took risks in their WWE career to advance. So I'm not, it's not like I chose this, right? Maybe I might have, if I don't know how negotiations would have went, because they didn't happen, right? But I was, at that point, I was prepared for a conversation that said, look, I'm not demanding to be a top guy or I'm not demanding for X amount of pushes or championships or whatever. All I want is to know that I have an actual chance and I will be given

the platform to succeed on that chance. My plan in negotiations was to have that talk, and we never got there. So now, where I am now, my plan is to continue that conversation and that train of thought and go to whatever place is going to give me that opportunity, because that's all I want. that's all I need. And I said that very specifically in my letter that now I have the chance to go out and take it because that's what I need at this point. Right.

I'm 37 years old. So I'm not a spring chicken, but I'm also in the prime of my career. Last night, I got to work with, I don't want to get his name wrong. Hold on. We have all the world's information in our pocket. I want to make sure. Let's make sure we nail this. I want to say it's um no don't don't say it till you know it no no yeah I

if I say his name wrong I'm gonna regret it forever it's a pronunciation I love that we just pull out your phone and you go there you go immediately no okay I was right okay good it sounded wrong in my head trusted your gut it sounded wrong in my head for whatever but it's the right name last night I got to wrestle Aaron Rourke at Beyond Wrestling. And he is so talented. And we had such a great match, mostly because of him,

you know, because of how talented he is. But knowing that I have that platform to succeed is so enticing to me that I'm not going to give that up just for money. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, because that money is going to be short lived, right? If I can't have a true opportunity to go alongside some sort of contract offer, then I'm just not going to be able to take it because it's going to be short money.

That's what it's going to be. I learned that the hard way in WWE. I have to get myself over as an entity, as a product, as a brand, so that it pays dividends. it ends in the long term. It just feels to me like if they didn't have anything for you on the main roster, why not send you back to NXT? Like you're already well established there. You had some of your best matches of your career there.

That seems like it makes a lot of sense. I can give you my hypothesis. I don't know this to be fact. It's a complete guess and no one has told me otherwise. I don't know when this decision was made, but at some point there was less. a decision made that DiJack or T-Barr was on a, is on a main, main roster contract. And under that main roster contract, it concludes on June 28, 2004.

So I'm in NXT, right? I'm in NXT on a main roster contract. So at some point, whether it was, whether it was before I went to NXT or whether I'm during NXT or whether it's right before the draft, I think at some point a decision was made that he's on a main roster contract on NXT, and that doesn't work in whatever capacity. Because if I'm, I'm sure they, I'm not sure, but my guess would be they don't want to renew a contract for someone who's on NXT.

My guess would also be, not my guess, but I know that they didn't have a creative plan for me on Raw. So at that point, what do you do? You can leave me on NXT, but if you leave me on NXT and the plan is to just let my contract expire, then that doesn't look good, right? Because if the plan was what, what, I wasn't directly told, but it was alluded to me that the plan was for me to, or there was at least a pitch for me to, to feud with Trick Williams for the NXC Championship. So if that happens and it plays out and at Battleground, we have a match, my contract's up maybe a week later or something like, I don't know the exact timing of it. But so if you're WWE, do you want someone having a feud for the main champion?

and then not being employed the next week. That's probably not a great scenario. So I think my guess is they looked at all the possible scenarios and said, okay, best case scenario right now for us and what we want to do with his contract is just kind of quietly bring him up to Raw and just kind of hope he fades away. Do you feel like writing that letter burns a bridge? Do you feel like now you can't go back to WWE?

That's not up to me. I'll put it this way. If that letter burned a bridge with WWE, then they need to take a long, hard look at themselves because everything in that letter is true and it's what they did. So if me telling the truth of their actions burns a bridge, then maybe they should consider changing their actions because that doesn't reflect well on them. All I did was say what you did to me. I didn't scorn anyone.

I didn't throw anyone under the bus. I didn't call anyone names or or throw out thoughts or allegations or anything like that. All I said was these are the facts of exactly what happened to me. A little bit of opinion mixed in there with, with I exceeded everybody's, but honestly, in a sense it's not because I was told from people. I was told from from Sean Michaels,

from Triple H that you're knocking it out of the park. You're doing a great job. You just, you did it again. Another match of that, you know, these are the things that they would communicate to me. So it's not like, it's not like I'm making these things up in my own head and I'm, I'm just, I have this grandiose picture of myself. No, I was told these things by the people in charge.

So ultimately at the end of the day, I have no idea who sat in the room and made these decisions. It used to be a lot easier because he could just say, it's probably Vince, right? Because he owned the company. He did all the booking. had the final say on literally everything. So if you got released or if you got something else, you pretty much knew who made the call back then. Now Endeavor owns the company.

They got their own set of rules. There's different levels of creative and how it relates to the board of directors and whatever. I don't know how any of that works. Somebody had to sit down at some point and say, this contract isn't worth it. I'd love to have been given that explanation. And I requested that explanation. and it was not given to me.

And that's disappointing. I don't think they had a contractual obligation or a legal obligation to give me that explanation. And that's probably the rules and the parameters that they live by, which is fine. And on a business sense, I kind of respect that because it's like, you're a business and the bottom line is all that matters

and that's great. At the same time, there's a, there's a, there's a lot of talk about family and community in WWE and we're all on the same team. I'd like to see a little bit more of that practice because that's how I felt. I felt like I was part of the family. I felt like I was part of the team and I wanted to work towards that. I still feel that way, but now I feel it about my coworkers, the wrestlers in the locker.

Those guys will always be my family. They'll always be my team. but you know now I understand that this is a business so so we got to treat it like a business you brought up Cody and I I want to ask you about that chair shot that he heard in the ring yeah he destroyed you yeah so um so we knew we had the angle and uh I think I think I proposed most of it to him right because as a wrestler you never want to be like yeah man and then I'll do this and I'll drill you in the head with the chair. That's not something that you,

it's something that the guy taking it usually wants to offer. Yeah. So I knew we had to do some sort of angle because it was, it was leading to, maybe the main event of that show was him in an eight man tag or something like that. So we started with the singles match and then he needed to get rid of me somehow to get to whatever. So I was like,

why don't, why don't we do a chair shot? He was like, okay. And then I came up with this plan or one of us, came up with a plan to sit the chair in the ring and put me in the chair. And then I told him, and this is a direct quote, and I'll remember it because he said it a lot of times after. I told him, I want you to be Barry Bonds, just swing away.

And he was like, okay, if that's what you want. The angle that we got was really good because you can't really see my hand sneak up into the frame last second. because what ended up happening is I took 100% of it right on my wrist. So my wrist got destroyed, not broken, but it just hurt a lot. It was like a bad bone bruise for a couple weeks, but didn't touch my head, didn't touch my face. I was completely fine. No, no, nothing. It looked so good.

It did look really good. When it happened, I didn't know how good it looked. And then I watched the video back. I'm like, oh, brother, that looked like it ripped my head clean off. Especially because the most viral video of it was like a fan holding a grainy cell phone cameras back in 2016 or 17. And the fans like screaming like, so it just looked like death. But yeah, it wasn't that bad. Prize picks is America's number one daily fantasy sports app with over 5 million active members.

Get in on the excitement and went up to 100 times your cash with the summer games on. prize picks. With prize picks, you could turn $10 into $1,000 while watching Team USA rack up the gold medals this summer. You can make a prize picks lineup of players across basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, and more in as little as 60 seconds. Just pick more or less on two to six player stat projections, and you are locked in. Prize picks is available in more than 30 states across the country, including California, Texas, and Georgia. Download the prize picks app today and use the code Insight for a first deposit match up to $100. That's code Insight on prize picks for a deposit match up to $100.

Pick more, pick less. It's that easy. This episode is brought to you by Timeline. Timeline is a Swiss-based life science company, and they're a global leader in Eurolithen A research. So what's urolithin A? It's a powerful postbiotic that's nearly impossible to get from your diet alone. Mitopure is the first product to offer a precise dose of urolithin A to upgrade your mitochondria function, increase cellular energy, and improve muscle strength and endurance.

One way to think of mitopure is that they're like the little pack men in your cells, chomping up the old damaged mitochondria that makes you feel old and tired and recycling it into new healthy ones. two soft gels a day for two months and you can see significant improvements in your cellular energy, muscle strength, and endurance. After four months of taking mitopure,

you'll feel yourself getting stronger, recovering faster after a workout, and experiencing less inflammation. This is all part of your healthier aging routine. Check it out for yourself at timeline.com slash insight. They're giving you 10% off your first order of mitopure when you go there.

So that's timeline.com slash insight for 10% off. Timeline.com slash insight. Passion, drive, and patience. The formula for winning championships is also what keeps your ride or die alive. eBay Motors has everything you need to maintain your vehicle and level it up to peak performance. Superchargers, roof racks, exhaust kits, LED headlights, and more. Whether you're into speed, power, or style, eBay Motors has you covered.

With over 122 million parts for your number one rider die, you'll always find exactly what you're looking for. And with eBay guaranteed fit, your part is guaranteed to fit your ride every time or your money back. Because with eBay Motors, you're burning rubber, not cash. With all the parts you need at the prices you want, it's easy to make your car the MVP and bring home huge wins. Keep your ride or die alive today at eBaymotors.com.

Eligible items only, exclusions apply. Hey there, thank you for letting me interrupt this. episode. I'm Sam Roberts. You may know me from WWE Television, from being on YouTube forever. Well, if you're not already listening to Not Sam Wrestling, what are you waiting for in my podcast where every single Monday we break down and overanalyze everything going on in this wonderful wild world of professional wrestling? The conversations we have are so much fun trying to

predict everything that's going on as we lead all the way up to SummerSlam. You can get it wherever you get audio podcast. or on YouTube, the whole podcast goes up on video. Just search not Sam Wrestling and tell them Sam Roberts sent you. What was the original pitch that you got for Retribution? The original pitch that I got for Retribution was no pitch. There was no pitch. Yeah, there was no pitch given to me.

I made the pitch because Retribution existed before the members of it were selected in any capacity. the original group of retribution that you saw on Monday Night Raw was a bunch of writers and extras all wearing those head-toe blacks, throwing Molotov cocktails at a generator. That's the first time you saw Retribution. And when that happened, I was in this weird middle ground of sort of called up, sort of an NXT, just kind of floating around the PC because it's in the middle of COVID, right? So sometime along that storyline as it begins to progress, I say, all right, I'm going to go make my pitch to Vince because I have some names in mind. I have a concept in mind because right now on TV, this is kind of getting laughed at, right? It looks the whole general feeling of it. And the only feedback that we have at this point is Twitter, right?

That's the only, that's our only source of feedback because there's literally no fans. We don't even have video screens at this point. It's early, early days. Yeah. It's just wrestlers standing around being told cheer now. So who knows what the reception of this is other than Twitter, which is destroying it, right? It looks like a bunch of school kids jumping around, you know, playing at recess. That's the general thought process.

So I'm like, okay, but they're clearly invested in this project, right? It's a mainstay of Raw and Smackdown. They're destroying the ring on Smackdown. They're sawing thing. the commentators are running away. They're running angles where Rick Flair's punt kicking or Randy Orton's punt kicking Rick Flair and the lights turn out because of retribution.

So I'm saying, okay, they're invested in this angle. Let me give them more of a reason to invest in this angle. I have the perfect set of people to execute this. I have a good vision as to why I can tie it all in. I can keep continuity. Let me pitch all of this directly to Vince. he's easily accessible because he's at the performance center where we are every day. So I film, as I was telling you earlier, I like to film vignettes in like my basement and stuff.

So I film this little vignette in my basement. I bring it on an iPad. I type up a thing with a list of names, a lot of the names that ended up being in retribution, some that were, some that weren't. A whole synopsis of why we're doing what we're doing, what we look like, what our motivation is. And I gave it to him and I showed him, I showed him the video.

And we had a, not a conversation, but I presented all of it to him straight there. He watched all of it. He absorbed all of it. And then he gave me a five minute talk about professionalism. Which is an interesting conversation in hindsight. But it's a conversation that happened.

I think that's based on the fact that the first time I ever met him, So this is the second time I ever met him. The first time I ever met him was about a month earlier. And I was told through the grapevine that I made a very bad first impression. I don't necessarily know why, but I think it was because I was a fan in the PC, not even the Thunderdome yet, but the PC because they had NXT wrestlers. And I was sort of called up to. But they told us to dress like fans, basically. So I walked in to just introduce himself because I'd been told I'd been called up to Raw.

And I'm kind of dressed like a fan basically at that point. And I just introduced myself. And maybe he didn't like all that. Maybe he thought that I should be more professional about I should have been in a suit and tie and something. Because that was basically the talk he gave me after I made the pitch about retribution. He's like, you need to have more respect for these, these, these, these. these board members, these CEOs, and then he goes, not me.

Like, he's one of the boys. And it's just a very confusing message. And I'm like, yes, sir, sounds good. I was like, sorry, I'll be more. I can read between the lines. Yeah, I'll be more professional next time. And then I left and nothing happened for another two or three weeks. And I'm like, whatever.

I shot my shot and I missed is what it is. So then you're still in NXT Purgatory, like? Sort of, yep. More main roster purgatory, Because at that point, I'd been, I'd been choked out by carrying Cross, and that was it. I was just done with NXT. Yeah. So I'm more in main roster purgatory at that point.

And then one day we moved to the Thunderdome and, me and two of the guys I ended up pitching, D.O. Madden and Shane Thorne, the three of us are now under the black masks and the full black outfield. fits and we're hiding under the ring on the first ever Thunderdome on Smackdown while Vince McMahon does the introduction to the Thunderdome, welcome to the Thunderdome. And the lights turn out and the fiend interrupts him and whatever, intimidates him. And then Braun Strowman comes out. And then the fiend waves goodbye and disappears. And then we all appear on the apron because we were all under the ring the whole time.

And we beat the hell out of Braun Strowman and it gets like 50 million views on YouTube. or something. It was the most watched YouTube thing in WWE that entire year. So we're thinking, great. Vince listened to my pitch. He liked it. He's executing it. This is perfect. This is going exactly.

These guys are my best friends. This is all going perfectly. And we had like three or four weeks of that because we're just jumping over the rails and beating up Ray Mysterio, Dominic Mysterio, Keith Lee, Drew McIntyre. It's going well. And it's trending in a good direction. then one week we lose our our bookings for smackdown they're just disappearing we're told

at raw this is going to be raw exclusive now and that was the first sign of like that's not good because we're a group of anarchists who want to destroy the wwee but we only do it on one brand that's that's a bit of a disconnect for me so i'm a little concerned now and was this wasn't it the fox didn't like this on smackdown I never heard that in an official capacity. I never saw a report that said that. But yes, that is the rumor I heard that Fox did not like retribution, which for the record, they had every right.

And you're like, nobody did. Right, right. At that time, at that time, it was okay and it was trending in a better direction, right? We did the whole angle. We were standing at the edge of the apron to close Monday, not raw. It felt cool. It looked cool. then the day came for the big reveal

and the big reveal was these masks which was part of what I pitched. I had pitched masks, but I had pitched entrance masks where we, you know, we ripped them off and we reveal who we are and this is why we're angry and all these other things. We were not going that route.

We were going a different route and we were told that our names were T-bar and slapjack and mace and reckoning and retaliation. And we were like, uh-oh. Was T-Barr supposed to stand for something? It's my understanding from the people who were in the production meeting that they were trying to think of names of weapons, I guess.

And anyone who's ever spoken with Vince McMahon knows that his mind works in mysterious ways and he can just come up with things. So I guess to him, a T-bar was a weapon and a slapjack was a weapon. and a slapjack was a weapon. Because, like, I guess a crowbar is a weapon and a, what's that little thing where you like, it's like the old English cops used to like hits a. Oh, yeah, like a Billy Club?

Yeah, something like that. I think they used to call that a slapjack in some capacity. And a mace is obviously a big wielding smashing. So that's kind of, and you spray. It's also that, yeah. So I heard in some, but then the girls are reckoning and retaliation. So it was just kind of, like you're in, I don't know, like, I'm trying to think of what movie that would be.

Seems like these are characters in a movie. It was just a mixed bag of- Mad Max. Yeah, yeah, it was just a mixed bag of nonsense is what it was. And I think in Vince's mind, he just wanted five people nobody had ever heard of. But is there part of it where you're like, but I'm on the main roster? Yes. And I can make the best of this situation. There is a part of that, yes.

And you've seen it done in the past with people who get kind of handed a raw deal and they go, like Eugene's an example that immediately pops into mind. Yes. He made the best of that situation and turned it into what he turned it into. Yes. And I'm with my best friends in this group. So it's like, okay, we're out of NXT. We're on the main roster.

We've been given this. It feels like it's a project of Vince. So it feels like he's invested in it. Yeah. So let's just weather the storm, because the storm is happening, right? The second the masks come off, everyone went, that's Dominic Di Jukovic, that's, that's Mia Yim. You guys are clearly wearing masks. They don't look good.

Which, by the way, Jason Baker made our masks, and he is the most talented maskmaker in the world. He made all of Bray Wyatt's masks. He made all of the Wyatt Six masks. So he's an outstanding mask maker. He was given a very specific image and said and told make exactly that. So he did not get a choice in this. So if anyone wants to blame him, do not blame him. He did literally the best he could.

And I spoke to the person who designed them. And they apologized to me because they were told very specifically, it has to look like this. And they submitted a bunch of different designs. And they were like, no, no, no, it has to look like this. So everyone tried to help us, but they were given, everyone was given very specific directions in terms of what the vision was. How would you think it would have been received if there was actually an audience there? That's a great question.

I think better, right? Because there would have been more production. There would have been more interaction. Yeah. It would have been clearer that we were bad guys. trying to make people angry rather than just what you saw, which was crazy people just kind of screaming at nothing, right? It's like, we're going to take over these screens, right?

It's like it doesn't translate very well. I know that they broke off me and Mace and put us in a tag team and had us take our masks off. And that seemingly was well received by the audience, even though I was still named T-Barr and he was still named Mace. Which, by the way, we pitched to not have those names anymore because we didn't want the stink attached to us. But it was. It was still there. We still had the same music and everything. So, but even still, we were getting good reactions from the crowd. It just apparently wasn't Vince's cup of tea, the tag team. So that got split apart too and for whatever reason. But when it comes to your actual in-ring wrestling, like nobody has anything bad to say about it.

I mean, it depends. I think. I think that there's a, I think there's a group of individuals out there who already have their minds made up for whatever reason. You're talking about fans? Fans, yeah. Because I've, I've, I've been very outspoken on a lot of things and a lot of topics. I might have said something negative about their favorite wrestler. I might have said something that's emotionally charged that didn't sit well with. them but they're just looking for a reason not exactly right so that so there is a group of

of people who are looking for a reason to to not like me you can't please those people exactly exactly for the most part because i see a lot of this too i see a lot of he's boring he sucks i don't want him in the company but he's a pretty good wrestler i see a lot of that so and those are entertaining those are actually right those are actually the those sometimes when i see those comments, they actually feel better because I know they're coming from a genuine place. Like, oh, that guy really doesn't like me, but he still thinks I'm a good wrestler. Like, that's a really good compliment. For people that don't know, what does it mean to be ratioed on?

So this started on, I had an underground match on NXT with Eddie Thorpe, who was incredibly talented. It was his second underground match, my first. And we were so happy, so proud with this match. We had a big long feud. And this was the payoff. We'd had three or four gimmick matches, strap match, you know, all sorts of different stuff. He'd been bleeding.

I'd been beating up his spiritual tree. There was all sorts of, I was beating him with my belt in front of his family, in front of his little niece. So it was all very emotionally charged and very good. Finally, the big payoff was this underground match that he, beat me in. So it's the it's like a day or two after. And the, the way the W.W. Socials work is the, the tweet will come out, you know, as it happens. And then there'll be one that's like timed. Like you'll see it come out at like 10 a.m. or whatever the next day or maybe a couple days later. And those ones always don't do as well because they're just these timed intervals of

like, hey, just a reminder of this happened. So one of those came out in it, and it, it tagged me in it. And they never do great numbers. So usually I just look at it and I retweet it and I go, yeah, I did my job. This time I said, what can I do to get this random WWE tweet that will ultimately make them money, right? Because they're verified and they get the money from proceeds. And I know all the guys in social. So they want hats on the back about your social numbers are up this month or whatever thing happens. So I'm like, I'm just going to see if I can ratio this. and get some interaction with this tweet that would otherwise get no interaction. So I said it and it happened.

And I was like, oh, okay, cool. And the thing I noticed about it is that when I did that, the original tweet did way better numbers. It was like over a thousand maybe. And I was like, oh, this is mutually beneficial. It makes me look like I'm a rebel in a sense because I'm just, I'm kind of dumping on the WWE. in a sense, but also it does them a favor.

And I've talked to the social media guys about it, and they loved it. They thought it was great, though, it increases our numbers and does it. So I started doing it more and more and more. And then it, people started really enjoying it. And the point when I noticed that the most was when we had WrestleMania weekend in Philadelphia. And I was just, my, my friends were there, the MXM were there and I was going to visit them at wrestlecon.

So I was just walking down. the street for the first time because I usually don't like to be out and about during those things, during those week-long events just because, you know, there's a lot of fans walking around and you can get mobbed and stuff. Not that I got mobbed, but for the fans that were noticing me, most of them were like, like, hey, die jack ratio or stuff like that. So that was the first time where I got a sense that I'm like, oh, this is something people can tangibly get behind. and sink their teeth into, whereas I didn't really have anything like that. Like, I had a catchphrase, Feast Your Eyes, and it was the name of my,

the name of my finisher, too. But it just felt like something fun that people could get behind me with, right? And most people who have, who get over in any capacity, have something fun that people can sink their teeth into. Like, yeah, right? You say, yeah, and everyone says, yeah, everyone likes it. It's fun. And it's a fun thing to do.

and say. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to keep doing this and keep progressing it and seeing, see who I can ratio. And every time I try, I seem to get away. I ratioed the president and then I ratioed Twitter itself. And I was like, oh, it's, you ratioed one guy and he got a ratio tattoo? Yeah, one guy got a ratio tattoo. He still talks to me actually. But, but, but yeah. So, so it's, it's a fun thing to do online. You need a move that's called The Racial. I think so, too. And I didn't want to for a long time

because Axiom was on NXT and his finisher was called The Golden Rationo. So I didn't want to take away from him. That's very kind of you. Because I like him a lot. Yeah. But now I'm not on NXT, so yeah. It could literally just be the ratio.

I think, yeah. I think maybe the spinning big boot is now the ratio. I don't know. That's pretty good. Because it doesn't have a name. You could yell ratio as you do it. That's not a bad. It's pretty good.

It's not a bad idea. And then the crowd will catch on. They'll start yelling it. Yeah, because it's, I don't want it to define me, right? Like, I don't want to come out with, like, ratio gear on and be like, I'm Captain ratio. You're wearing a shirt. That's a t-shirt.

Last night was my first indie show, and it did sell well. So people are obviously into it. But when the bell rings, I want people to know that, you know, you're in for a hard-hitting, excellent match and to not be worried about yelling ratio and stuff. But there's like a. Who is it? Oh, Sammy Callahan. Wrestling is what he yells.

Yeah. You could just randomly. You can integrate it if you're good. Listen, I have the platform to do whatever I want now. So, whereas in NXT, you know, you were a lot more reserved in a lot of senses because you have to run everything by everyone. And if you don't, you know, you risk that because that's what ended up happening. And I alluded to this earlier as I started taking more and more risks.

And by a risk, I mean basically something that I didn't run by someone. And when you do that, it has to be calculated because if it flops, you're in trouble, right? If you ask for forgiveness and not permission, it better get over or else now you're in the doghouse, right? Thankfully, most of the stuff I did and ended up doing well even after I was scolded for doing so. But yeah, you know, yelling ratio or something like that. Even I didn't, it took me four or five months to even think about or even begin to start wearing ratio stuff on WW TV because it felt concerning. It felt like someone was going to see it and be like, don't wear that stuff anymore.

And I'm not imitating Sean doing that. That could have been anyone's. I know that sounded like Sean. I don't think Sean ever would have told me not, but there's, you know, There's people who are in charge of don't wear that shirt. Don't do that thing. Don't say that thing. And then even on commentary, there was a time where I did commentary for the first time

ever in my career. And Josh Briggs was yelling something at me. And I was like, what was that? If you say that to me again, I'm going to, I said, if you had a Twitter, I'd ratio you. And I said that. And I knew it would be funny and it would land. But as I said it, I would. into the back and I was like waiting for someone to come up to me and tell me not to say it ever again,

right? Because that's the, that's the conditioning you get in WWE. The more you try things, not always, but a lot of the time when you, when you do things, someone will grab you in the back and be like, hey, please don't do that anymore. They're not like rude about it or angry about it. But once they tell you, you can't do it anymore, you better not do it again, right? Yeah. Because that's your, you have a lot of bosses, right? But that's a person in control or over you telling you not to do something so that's a reflection on their boss and whatever so you you don't have a choice now that you're a free agent you're doing your own thing on the indies who have you kind of bounced ideas off of who who that's maybe been in the same spot that you're in

they were in wwee then they went to the you know the indies to do their own thing who have you sought counsel from yeah i mean that's that's my my circle of friends unfortunately at this point literally all my close friends were with me in wwe and they all got released um i didn't get released my contract got expired but basically the same so you're talking about mace i'm talking about mason d madden uh mansor uh big demo shane haste and uh anthony green those are those are all of my close friends from WWE that all got released. So some of them in better situations than the others. But yeah, it's hard to be in a position where, I mean, Shane's my go-to example. You know, he was brought in to be in a tag team with Mikey Nichols, which he's still in.

They're the IWGP tag team champions in New Japan right now. So he's doing very well right now, as he should, because he's an outstanding wrestler and an outstanding talent. But what happened is Mikey left WWE, because I guess he just didn't want to be there anymore. And so Shane's on his own. And then he enters this middle ground where he's kind of up and down. And then he joins Retribution.

So he's slapjack in Retribution, which is. Let's call Spade of Spade. That was the worst gimmick. I mean, that was, T-Barr was bad, slapjack was worse. It looked silly. It looked like a silly joke. The name was a silly joke.

It was just nonsense. It was character assassination, basically. Yeah. Retribution disbands. And he's not even in the draft. He's just moved quietly to Smackdown as himself, but he doesn't even really have a, character name. So he's just going to Smackdown and pitching things to Vince to be like,

can I please exist in WD? Because he doesn't, I don't even think he's like on the roster in any capacity. He's just there in case they need like a body or something. And they did that with him for like half a year, maybe a year and then released him. That's so much worse than the situation I'm in. And like, he's expected to recover from that, which he did because he's so talented and, and, and, and, So such a spectacular worker and wrestler and character and everything, I'm in a much more lucky. I mean, that's what it is. I'm lucky because they could have released me when I was T-bar. Instead, the choice was made to send me to NXT and basically rehab my career.

So for that, I'm extremely thankful and extremely lucky. Am I disappointed with the way it concluded? of course, because I thought and I was told that I was down there to rehab my image and I could, this wasn't told to me directly, but it was assumed by me that if I did good enough, it would translate. And we could turn this into a main roster act and we could take off from there. So I did everything in my power to exceed expectations every time. And it's disheartening and disappointing to find out that that probably,

there's probably not much I could have done at that point. When you work so closely with Sean Michaels for so long, what's something you take from him that you're now going to bring with you and everything you do in the future? That's a great question. In terms of WWE and my overall tenure at WWE, Sean Michaels is probably the most important figurehead for me. simply because it felt like that was the first time

where I was really, really heard. When I was moved down to NXT, I came into a meeting with Sean, with Johnny Russo, who I mentioned earlier, and Matt Bloom. And we sat in a room, and I very hesitantly pitched to them my idea because this was not my first pitch in WWA.

I told you about the retribution pitch. I've made probably throughout my course of Timar. I probably pitched directly to Vince, probably five or six things. And just in general to like my writers or to Bruce or to whoever else in the creative process, probably upwards of like 20 things. And that sounds like a lot and it sounds like I'm bombarding them.

They were well spaced out. I was on the main roster for a long time doing nothing or doing main event or two years is a long time especially when you're when there's clearly no creative plan for you and you're just trying to like can i do this on rock and i try this oh this just happened i'd fit in here and the more you pitch the more they're like shut up you know they didn't they didn't say shut up but you know it's like it's like hey we'll use you when you when we need you okay so just just hang out on the bench for a little bit you're basically saying the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Not always, because I was very squeaky and I was not being greased. I think that there's varying levels to that, right? Ultimately, at the end of the day, there's a level of investment, there's a level of trust. There's all sorts of things that play a role, excuse me, that play a role in how, if someone's booked and why. At the end of the day, for whatever reason, most of my WWE tenure was spent as

we'll use him when we need him, sort of thing. In NXT, this latest NXT run, it felt a little different. The end of my first NXT run felt like it was trending in that direction pretty well too. We had the takeover war games and the feud with Keith and that felt like it was progressing upward. and then the one month or whatever with retribution that felt like it was going going pretty well.

But other than that, I, you know, I had a lot of, you know, we're talking about a five-year window here where the majority of it feels like I'm not being heard. So I have this presentation ready for Sean and Johnny and Matt. And I'm, my guard is way up at this point, right? Because I've had these presentations. I've pitched things before. and every single time it gets ignored. Not only does it get ignored, sometimes you don't know this for sure,

but you see something like it pop up. I'll give an example. One time I pitched a thing to Vince directly to Vince, I had artwork made up by my graphic designer because I knew how much Vince loved animals, like aggressive animals, because he was always talking about like, you're a dinosaur, you're this, you're snarling,

talk about, talk about it. There's one time, I don't know if you remember this, but there's a one time we did, It went viral at the time because it was so silly. It was me and Mace in Gorilla. So Vince is sitting right there. We're looking at him. And he wrote this promo basically.

And he's like, just list animals. And we're standing there. We're like cats, dogs, mice, rats. What are these things have in common? It's like they all want to kill something. Because he wrote this for us and we're just saying it. And people are watching this promo. It's on YouTube.

You can go find it on YouTube right now. What? You know, so you know he has this obsession with, with animals or scary animals or King of the Jungle. He has a big T-Rex head in his office. Yeah. So he has these weird obsessions. That's pretty cool, actually. It's very cool.

The T-Rex head? Yeah. No, it's very cool. But just him in general, he has these like weird, like primal obsessions. So I'm like, okay, and I'm going through the list of animals in my head. I'm like, okay, that animal's taken that animal's taking that animal's taken out of me. I'm like, what animal is available? I'm like, I got a lion.

I've no one's ever been a lion in in in w. w. That's lion's heart and that he wasn't that in w. That was in like w cedar. Yeah. Lion salt. My own salt.

Sure. But yeah. Okay. But I mean like a like I'm a lion. You know, like I don't think Jericho over did that. But yeah. So I bake this pitch to him. I'm like I want to be, I want to be, uh, I probably said die Jack because I would

always pitch Dijack because my name was T-Barr and I didn't want to be T-bar. So I'd always pitch Dijack in some capacity. I'd be like, my name is DiJack the Lion and I'm like, you know, I have all these different things and I showed him this whole thing and he's like, all right, go out there and be the lion, show me the lion. I was like, okay, so I went out and wrestled like a lion. I don't know what that means,

but I was like grabbing the guy really aggressively like he was my prey or something. Two weeks later, two or three weeks later, it was like, he's here, veer is coming, veer, the lion. And I was like, So I'm not going to say that like that was, but like you start to notice things like that happen more and more, right?

So I'm not going to say without a shadow of a doubt that he like took that and said, I'm giving this to say, but like maybe the seed was planted and he forgot about it and they were at a meeting and he was thinking about lions and he came out. You know, whatever. I don't know how it works. But just that wasn't the first time that something like that happened. That was the most obvious one. wasn't the first time something like that happened.

I'll give you another example. One time they had, and this is less of an example, but they were trying to do things with Omas, and he was with AJ Stiles, and there was this different, and I think they were trying to branch him off, and this was at the same time

when I was a singles competitor, and I was like, hey, I'm this big guy, I don't think I pitched this directly to Vince, but I think I sent it to the whole creative team or something, and it said something to the effect of, you know, we're trying to think of something new for T-Barr to do. It's like we haven't had those Viking Raider-esque squash matches in a long time. The pandemic's over.

We can have extras back. Like, let's do some squash matches and we can do something like that. And then two weeks later, all Moss was in the ring squashing guys. And I'm not saying that they took my idea. Like, I didn't invent the idea of squash matches. But you started to see those trends happen where it almost like you would, it's almost like I would remind them of an idea that they already had about somebody else. Yeah.

And it's like, you know, this. So this all circles back to the process with, with NXT, where I'm walking into the door, basically into this version of NXT for the first time. And my guard is way up.

And they know my guard is way up. They try to disarm me right away. And they're like, listen, we're all familiar with the main roster process. We know how this works. We want you to know right away that we are here to work with you and listen to you. and we want your ideas and we want to be a team.

This is a team effort. And I heard that and I said, that's great. I didn't say this, but I thought to myself, that's great. It's nice to hear them say that I have trust issues, right? I've been with WWE for five years. I have some trust issues right now. And they know that. So I pitched the whole thing.

Like I always do, I film something in my basement with the lighting and all the stuff. And it's almost exactly what you ended up seeing on TV in terms of the, the sunglasses and the smoke and the tape recorder and all that stuff. That was basically my, my, um, my, my, um,

my, um, my, that I, that I, the whole thing, the binder, the name,

here's my background, here's why, here's all of it. Yeah. They said, we love it. It's perfect. This is exactly the kind of thing that we're looking for.

And I said, okay, great. I've heard that before and it didn't, it didn't pan out. So wait and see. Uh, one week goes by,

two weeks, go by three weeks. go by. I go, here we go. WWA, back on their empty, broken promises. And then one week, they were like, hey, do you still have your T-bar mask? And I was like, well, I'm just going to quit the business right here. And they're like, no, no, no, no, we need you to send it down here because we have a vignette where we're going to set it on fire. And I was like, absolutely set it up. I'll set it on fire. Like, I'll do it. So I FedEx did overnight to them. And then on Halloween havoc, there was a, there was a vignette where someone was dropping the mask in a trash game,

burning it and I was like good start good start that was the actual mask that was the actual t bar mask so you don't have this anymore I don't like there were like a number of versions made of them so um um um mason has a bunch at his house I think just because one day Jason Baker who were all friends with was like I still have like 20 retribution masks and he he just took all of them I actually have the slapjack mask at my house if you can believe that because Shane sent it to pretty deadly to put in the background of one of the NXT Halloween shows to just be a little Easter egg there, but they ended up not being able to use it.

So they were like, hey, Shane told us to give this to you. So now I have the slapjack mask, and I just haven't given it to Shane yet. Because he lives in California and I live on the East Coast, and we just haven't matched up yet. What's the match people should go watch? If they're only familiar with your main roster work, what should they go back to see what die jack's all about man that's a great question i guess it depends on

what you're looking for what do you want people to see my favorite match that i've ever had in my career was at a deadline in the iron survivor challenge match um everything about that match just really spoke to me about what i like about professional wrestling because it was so unique It involved so many components. Because at the end of the day, against two. That was, it was like a five pack.

It was like me, Trick Williams, Braun Breaker, Josh Briggs, Tyler Bate. I think that's it. I think there was five of us. And it's just this,

it's this concept where there's like a hockey penalty box and you go into the, I think Sean created the whole thing in like a fever dream or something. It was just this this madman idea where there's like people going in and out of the ring and there's falls and you keep track of the whole thing and then at the end of the 30 minutes

it's whoever has the most falls. I love that stuff. That's because I've seen so much pro wrestling and I've done so much pro wrestling that a singles match is like, it's the kind of thing that like I can do in my sleep. Like I can do it blindfolded, right? Like I showed up to the venue last night

at 6 p.m. And our match was at 7.30 or something. and I just got with Aaron and I was like, let's do this, let's try this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And I called a 20-minute match in, you know, a half hour. Yeah. Because I've just done so many of them that I know it works. I know it gets good reactions. He does these things.

I can think of creative things quickly on how to reverse them. It's singles match. At the end of day, you try to pin a guy, he doesn't work, and that's kind of the story that you tell. This was so different and so unique that it just really got my creative. creative juices flowing. And we all got together. And even though a lot of these dudes are younger in the business, especially brawn and trick,

they came to the table with tons of ideas. And it was this wonderful collaborative process where we all worked together to try to make this completely unknown thing, make sense and work. And it went so well and it went off so perfectly. And the best part about it was the end was design. in a fashion where a lot of the pressure was on me in terms of timing because there was the whole angle where I got in the ring and then I did something with someone and I grabbed

trick and I hit him with my finish and then we had the timing with Eddie coming from under the ring and then I ran a little angle with him and then there was like three near falls in a row at the end and the way that this match is structured we had about 45 seconds to do all of this and if you'd screw up and go overtime the whole match is ruined the whole match is ruined The whole thing goes up. So that gave me an element of pressure that I hadn't felt in pro wrestling in a very long time. And it honestly, it felt kind of a lot more like a real sport because, you know, you used to, you feel that pressure all the time. And in college basketball or college football where it's like, I don't know what's going to happen.

This, you know, anything can happen in a real sport, right? In pro wrestling, there's a little more structure and stuff. But this, my heart was beating out of my chest. You know, I was nervous. I'm never nervous in a wrestling ring. I was super nervous for this match. And the way it was executed and the way we nailed the timing at the end and the underdog baby face came from from behind and everyone was behind Trick Williams. It just really felt like one of those moments where we made Trick in such a capacity that felt so good as a as a friend and a coworker and he was so thankful and the office was so thankful.

I was like, this just defines everything that I love about pro wrestling. So if you want to see what I love about pro wrestling, check that match out. If you want to see about me specifically and me as a character and my run in NXT, I would say probably go back to one of my two triple threat matches, which is either myself, Keith Lee and Roderick Strong from NXT TV, or my last premium live event, which was myself, Josh Briggs, and Obafemi, because triple threat matches have so many different moving parts, but I think in those matches specifically, we did a really great job of showcasing everybody and everybody had their standout moments and it just flowed very well. And that just

that's the kind of uniqueness and stuff that that speaks to me as a wrestling fan. I'm excited for what's next for you. And I feel like we're sitting here. You're a week into this new venture of yours. I'm excited to see how the rest of the summer goes. And who knows, who knows, you know what TV show you may pop up on anything could happen anything can happen and that's it's just as exciting for me as it is for anybody else because it's like you said it's only been a week and i've already had three or four scenarios where i don't know i'm doing something one day and then two days later i'm i'm doing this and two days later i'm i'm popping up on popping up on my first indian taking my mask off and then the next day i'm at forbidden door and i didn't know i was going to be

there a couple days before that so it's just been a whirlwind adventure and it's very exciting. I didn't know I was coming here until a week ago. Me neither. So we're trending in a very exciting direction because if I don't know what's coming next for me, then certainly everybody in the building or anyone who's watching stuff or consuming my content doesn't know what's coming next. And I love that feeling of being a wild card because it keeps me on my toes, right? Because I'm living the life. I'm living the roller coaster. So I hope that the fans are enjoying it just as much. So I will end this with the I ask everybody at the end because gratitude's a North Star in my life. It's how I start and end

every day. What are three things in your life that you're grateful for? Oh, my family, number one, by a country mile. I could not be more thankful and lucky with my family that God has blessed me with. My wife, Ashley, who works tirelessly for me. She's even assumed the role of my secretary and manager, although she'd say, and I probably should say that she's my boss. You probably get a lot of emails to that, booking email.

Thousands, maybe? When I tell you that we're probably closing it on a thousand, yeah. In the first two hours, we were at 100, and then by the end of day one, we were at 200, and it hasn't really slowed down too dramatically.

I still get quite a few. And by the way, we'll just throw this out there. you're still taking bookings through that booking email. Yes. So anybody listening to this or watching this? It's a book, DiJAC, B-O-O-K-D-I-J-A-K at gmail.com.

Either me or my wife Ashley will see it. She's a saint. She's been there for me through everything. She was with me before I was a professional wrestler. She's everything in the world to me and our two children. My son Connor, who's six, and my daughter, Amelia, who turns four in a couple weeks. They are 100% what I'm thankful for.

Everything I do is for them. Every decision that I make is for them. Even if it's for one reason, that reason ultimately becomes defined by them, right? So if I make a decision in wrestling that is because I feel strongly for it about my character or whatever, that's because I want my character to succeed so that I can have more success in pro wrestling so I can provide for my family for a longer time. That's the root of everything that I do. Every tweet that I make, every thing that I say, every controversial thing that I say is

100% for my family. And I don't always make the right decision, but they're always for them. So that's number one. Number two, right now I would say especially in my life is my support system around me. That's from who I already mentioned, the Paragon Talent Group, who've been instrumental in my, keeping me grounded and keeping me successful in this short term that we've been working on the open market and things like that. My group of friends that we already touched on, who I'm able to vent to, to bounce ideas off of, to go back and forth with. hopefully to wrestle alongside soon.

So that's number two. And number three is just the ability to get in a ring and do what I love. Because throughout all of this, I was in WW for a long time. And before that, I was a wrestler too on the independent circuit and the ring of honor. No matter how my job is going or trending or how I feel about my character or my direction or what I'm pitching or I'm off TV, I'm on TV. whatever. The consistent in my professional life has always been, I get to get in the ring and the bell rings, and then I'm in my comfort zone. I'm in my safe space. It doesn't matter if I have a mask on, doesn't matter what my name is. It doesn't matter anything. The second the bell rang,

I was happy. And unfortunately, the case is with WWE, the last bell rings all too quickly, right? Because most of my matches are like two-minute TV matches, or you're doing this, you're doing this quick segment or there's something, something, something, now I'm at a point where I can have those extended periods of happiness much longer, much more often, and under my own terms a lot more often, because now I'm the producer. I get to dictate how this goes, and I'm so thankful for that, and I'm so excited for that too. I'm so excited for it as well. Thank you for making the time. What a great conversation. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you to Donovan Dijac for making the trip to Toronto to record this episode in person with us.

Thank you for sitting in with us and also for being here and listening all the way until the very end. Hit that follow button if you haven't already. I know you don't want to miss the massive interviews that we have coming up in the next few weeks. The one we have next Tuesday is, it's huge. It's with a WWE Hall of Famer who really doesn't do. many interviews at all anymore. So that's, that's all I'm going to say about that. But you'll see next Tuesday. Can't wait to see what's next for DiJack. He's already, he's already like stirring up so much interest in the independence, stirring up so much interest on social media. I just can't wait to see where he shows up next. Snap a screenshot and tag us online so we can share it out. He's at DiJack, F-Y-E. I'm at Chris Van Vleet, and what a quote from Steve Jobs. Let's go invent tomorrow rather than

worrying about what happened yesterday. Be great and be grateful, my friends. We'll see you on the next one for some more insight with Scorpio Sky. When was the last time you heard from Scorpio Sky? I can't wait to chat with him on Thursday. We'll see you then. takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it. Get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What's your

beef? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.