Insight with Chris Van Vliet - FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss On How To Negotiate ANYTHING

Episode Date: April 1, 2022

Chris Voss (@thefbinegotiator) is the former lead international hostage negotiator for the FBI and the author of the bestselling book, "Never Split The Difference". He is also the founder and CEO of The Black Swan Group which offers negotiation training for businesses and individuals using Chris's hostage negotiation tactics. He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about how everything in life is a negotiation, he also discusses powerful negotiation techniques like mirroring and labelling, he describes the scariest situations he has been involved with while negotiating with kidnappers, gives tips on how you can get upgraded when you check into a hotel and much more! Find out more about Chris Voss and Black Swan Group at: https://www.blackswanltd.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blurley! Well, here we go. Welcome back to another audio adventure here on Insight. I'm Steve YvVee, Chris VanVee. Thank you so much for being with us. And, oh man, get ready to have your mind blown. If this is the first episode that you've ever tuned into,

you picked the right one, my new friend. A few years ago, I read the best-selling book called Never, split the difference that our guest Chris Voss wrote, and I was fascinated by it. It's one of those books that once you pick it up, you just can't put it down. Chris, by the way, worked for the FBI for 24 years where he was the lead international hostage negotiator, and since retiring from the FBI, he founded the Black Swan Group where he teaches people how to negotiate anything using those same hostage negotiation tactics. So good, right? You guys, you guys, You can find Chris on social media.

He's at Voss Negotiation on Twitter. He's at the FBI negotiator on Instagram. And you can find me. It's just my name at Chris Van Vleet. Our fan of the week is Jerry Kellerman. Jerry left this review on Apple Podcasts that says it's so quick. And this gets right to the point. I appreciate that.

It says, great info. My top podcast right now. Thank you, Jerry. That's very kind. I appreciate that. And if you're listening on Apple Podcast, It'd be so awesome if you would consider leaving a rating on there. Also, Spotify has reviews.

So if you could consider leaving a rating on Spotify, that'd be so, so awesome. All right. Let's get to this. This interview is packed with so much knowledge, so much value. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Voss. Chris, such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks for being on. Thanks, man.

Yeah, happy to be here. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Always good to talk to a fellow Chris. as well. Yeah, there you go, right? A sure sign of intelligence. That's exactly it. I've read your book, never split the difference, and it's absolutely life-changing. And I think that a lot of people sometimes think of negotiations as big things, like buying a house or buying a car. And I love that you point out that, no, no, there's negotiations in every aspect of our life. Yeah, everything. I mean, anytime we're looking for cooperation, agreement, you know, I mean, if you start thinking about it,

If you define it as just trying to get collaboration and having a good relationship, there's very little that doesn't touch. I mean, it's as simple as like getting your order at Starbucks or something like that. That's a negotiation? Yeah, it's of my favorite stories of all time. When I ran into that guy who started the global phenomenon called Secrets, you know, and he said, send me your secrets anonymously. I'll broadcast them to the world. That's why they've got to be anonymous. but somebody else is struggling with what you're struggling with.

He and I are talking backstage at a conference. And he said, yeah, I got a Starbucks coffee cup once with a note that said, I give decad to people who are mean to me. Oh, wow. Wow. You know, and forgive me for going on. But then I told a story a couple of other times. And I have spoken to lots of waiters and waitresses that said that customers and restaurants, that were mean and rude at night when they asked for decaf after dinner, they'd give them coffee

with caffeine in it. Wow. So, Chris, where do these negotiations start? The everyday negotiations of ordering food at a restaurant, for example. Yeah, or even anytime you see somebody, I mean, you can, the most dangerous negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. You don't know for sure that you're going to ask somebody for something, partly because you may not know that they have something they could do for you. I can't remember who I was talking to on the phone the other day. And I was just, I was just being really pleasant. And she just goes, you know, and I'm going to give you 10% off. Like, I had no idea that you could just throw that out there like that. Or, you know, the grocery store clerk. Like, I'm going through the self-checkout line.

And I'm kind of a, I'm a plastic fanatic. I minimize my plastic as much as I can. So I'm bringing my own bags at a grocery store. And, you know, I give a pleasant look to the guy that's supervising the self-checkouts. And on their own, they come running over. Let me give you a discount for using your own bag. You know, how do you get to that point? I mean, you know, you see somebody and you say, hey, you know, it looks like you're having a tough day.

It looks like you're enjoying your day. we would call that a cold read. How do you do a cold read? You gather data with your eyes. You make an observation on what you see. It's good practice. You're likely making a world a better place, which has secondary consequences,

good consequences for you. And then suddenly somebody spontaneously gives you something for free. You didn't even know that they could give you. I love it. I mean, let's take it back, Chris. Obviously, you are a master at this. Quite literally, you have a master class on negotiating.

If we take this all the way back, were you just really good at this as a kid? Now, you know, I've thought about that a lot. I think maybe, you know, Daniel Coro wrote a book called The Talent Code, which contends there's nothing is, nobody's naturally born anything. That's such a great book too.

Blanks, like, yeah, he writes good stuff. I think, you know, my father expected me to figure stuff out. from an early age. He expected that of all of his children. He was an entrepreneur, blue collar, Midwestern guy. I'm a son of Richard and Joyce of Austin,

Mount Pleasant Iowa. 7,000 people, blue collar, get it done, figure it out. And I think I was nurtured to figure things out. And then when I finally got introduced

to communication really, in a really big way, you know, I'm coachable. That's what the figure it out attitude is. I'm open to learning.

I think I've been coachable. I've always been open to learning, and that's what gave me an advantage in picking up negotiation. So is this like a, is it a type of manipulation? Is that what negotiation is? Yeah, another really good question, because a lot of people are worried about that. Yeah. You know, manipulation is really about what you're intent. You know, negotiation, tactical empathy is a tool, period.

Now, you could use your powers for good or you can use your powers for evil. You know, a knife in one person's hand is an instrument of death. In a surgeon's hand, it's a scalpel, and it's an instrument of life. It's all what it's been used for. The tool in and of itself is not evil. It's how it's being wielded. So are there, I mean, knowing what you know now, are there situations where you go in and you go,

I'm going to be able to get exactly what I want out of this? You know, there's a very high degree of confidence with practice. Sure. And it's only the practice. Now, I try to be a little bit careful about being focused on what I want, which is another aspect of it. Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. Like if you're really focused on what you want, if you don't get it, you might be disappointed, which meant you missed out on another opportunity.

there might be something better. You know, we get kind of a standard routine, we call it the Black Swan three-step method for getting upgraded to suites and hotel rooms. Now, you could bully your way into a suite and that'll work one in a hundred times and you remember it for the rest of your life. Or you could use tactical empathy to get a suite

and you get for free and you get the suite for free or something else for free every single time you check into a hotel. I don't know anybody who's batting average for upgrades to suites is anywhere near ours.

But then also, sometimes they don't have a suite. You know, if my bullying behavior focused on a suite, I could miss out on, you know, I had a guy give me like four free drink tickets

for the hotel bar. I had another guy give me, This is my favorite one. He says, look, we don't have any left, but the guy at that restaurant next door, he's a buddy of mine, I get you 20% off on your food or you're hungry. And I'm thinking like, I don't know how it's going to work out. But yeah, you know, I got to eat.

I'll take 20%. He writes on the back of his business card, give Chris 20%. I look at the card and I'm like, this is bogus. This is never going to work. And so I go over there and when my check comes, the waitress comes up to me and I hand her the business card. And she looks at it. She was like, she got a last, this is handwritten on her back of a business card. I go, I know, but he said, take it to your manager and see what happens.

And she goes, okay. And she comes back and I get 20% off. Wow. So you never know. You just don't want to be too focused on what you want. So walk me through this. You're about to check into the hotel. You want to get upgraded to a suite.

Where does it start? Yeah, well, all right. So we would employ with what we call the accusations order. Now, this is a journey. I'm getting ready to take this person on. I want them to be relieved when we're done and delighted and actually want them to help me more. So I got to take them on.

There's a series of emotional moments. Some brand, and when we're teaching a Black Swan method, likes to say, you know, negotiation is a series of emotional moments. So, and where you end, the last impression is the lasting impression. Like, that's what matters where we end up. You know, Covey would call it, begin with the end in mind, but this is how you actually do it. So the first thing I'm going to say is, I am getting ready to ruin your day. Now, I'm going to say this after they've got my ID.

I've walked up. I'm checked in. Reservation. They're looking at it. They're going to be really focused on getting my ID from me and start the reservation. So I've got to let them get into gear because their brain is clouded. So they're looking at my driver's license. So checking a reservation.

That's when I hear I'm getting ready to ruin your day. Now, now I've got to hit them with dynamic silence. You got to shut the front door. You got to be quiet. You got to let them relax, react, let it sink in. You're going to watch their shoulders fall. They're going to be crestfallen because if you work in a hotel, God knows what these people have seen. Sure.

Like, you know, you want to bring your pets in. They don't have pets. Your pets is snake. You got your pets of scorpions, you know, you want to have a ritual. You're bringing a goat. You want to have ritual sacrifice. You know, God knows what these people have said. right?

And so you get crestfallen. So that's step one. Now again, understand where you leave them is what matters. So step two is the beginning of, in a black swan method,

we call this an accusation's order, which is going to start to steer and color this. They look at you and go, what? Oh God, what is? So the accusations order is

I'm getting ready to sound like just another self-centered, entitled traveler. who wants something for free that they do not deserve. All right, so now this is shifted a little bit. You're not going to sacrifice a goat in a hotel room, at least. But you want something for free. They're a little leery, but now it's already beginning to become a relief.

Now the closer here is what we call a thought-shaping question, which is a how or what question. And we've got to hit it. It's a bank shot and pool. We got to hit, we got to bounce this off another emotional moment at the end of the question. And so what are they going to be worried about? How much trouble they're going to get in if they get a free upgrade to a suite? That's what's going to go through their mind.

So I'm going to say, how much trouble do I get you in if I ask you for a free upgrade to a suite? Now, bang, if they've got one, they're giving it to me. they're going to check because the only thing they're worried about at this point now this entire entire thing has become a relief they got sweets in the hotel they give them zero dollars and if remain empty zero five star reviews you know there's other compensation for them here if they give your free upgrade to a suite what's a chance you're going to give the hotel a favorable review. What's the chance you're going to come back? I mean, there's all sorts of compensation besides monetary compensation. You point that out they feel backed into a corner.

The how question is designed to get their wheels turning considering all the possibilities. What are the other options? What's going on? What's in it for them? Maybe you're one less person is just happy with them. You know, there's this, the thought shaping question designed to hit them on a lot of levels. They're going to look for a suite for me. One time they're like, look, man, the only thing I got is a handicapped suite. Personally, I like the handicapped suites.

They're so much easier to get around, get in and out of. You know, and what if they don't have anything? And then plus, then this emotional journey, I've never not had them inquire as to how I was enjoying my stay. Every single time I pass a front desk from that moment on. Like you enjoy, day, you're having a good time, they're genuinely concerned because they've gotten invested. They feel they've rescued you at this point in time, which then leaves them on a complete high,

which again, where do you want this to end? I want them to leave on a high. You've made yourself memorable as well, and I think that's such an important thing. Yeah, another good insight, man. Yeah, absolutely. Memorable in a good way. Well, yeah, absolutely, because there could be a lot of people that take that bullying method you talk about that are memorable in a bad way where they go, he got an upgrade for me? Yeah, yeah. Or like the cleverest line I ever heard,

I was talking to a friend of mine about this, but first of all, it's only ever worked for him one time. And secondly, he didn't get anything else. And I don't know that I'm not going to come back to the front desk tomorrow morning and need something else. I frequently do. So, you know, this, my buddy says, he's at the front desk, he goes,

you mean to tell me that if the president of the United States was checking in tonight, you wouldn't have a sweet for him. And the clerk says, well, of course we would. And so he goes like, well, the president ain't coming. Give it to me. Wow. Now that's fun and clever. And you're going to pat yourself on the back

and brag about that for the next 10 years. And that worked for them one time. And it does not leave you in a position to come back and ask for something new. Like, for example, one of the hotels I was in recently, my plans changed overnight. I had to check out the following morning. It's less than 24 hours from a cancellation. As per their agreement, they could charge me full fee for that night when they're going to turn around and rent it out to somebody else.

I go in the next morning, I got to leave right away. And I go like, you know, how do I get out of here without getting you in trouble and without paying. And, you know, the cancellation. Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, they were killing themselves. And the valet ran, I got my truck. I mean, they had me ready to go before I was actually packed. I felt bad.

They were falling all over themselves to help me avoid paying them any more money. And you never know when you're going to need a follow-up. So that's why you don't want to beat somebody because you're going to turn around and need something from them in 24 hours. Are these types of interactions fun for you now when, you know, you spend 24 years of your career working for the FBI? A lot of those situations when you were the lead negotiator, lead hostage negotiator, were life and death situations. Like these ones that you're describing now, they seem like they're just much more fun. Yeah, you know, different aspect of positive emotions.

I mean, I always viewed the kidnapping stuff as a privilege. And so that didn't make it negative for me. And it was, it had its moments of, you know, dark times because nothing is perfect. But privilege is a positive thing. And you're grateful for privileges. And that's a positive emotion. And today, yeah, it's fun. And, you know, I get taste of it.

We're helping people have better lives. So it's also a privilege, you know, privilege in different ways. And we are having a lot of fun. And, you know, we get to trade fun stories. And it is a lot of fun. During your time as an FBI hostage negotiator, what was like the scariest situation that you were in? Yeah, well, you know, scary is a matter of definition.

I mean, negotiators negotiated over the phone. I mean, even when I'm working kidnappings, you know, the kidnappings are going on over the phone. I mean, there were times, like one of the cases I got into the Philippines, you know, we flew into Manila. And as soon as the commercial plane touched down, they said, like, we want you to fly to the south. Get another plane, go to the south. And South is a little bit of, that's a little dodgy down there. And I'm like, all right, I'll go. I'm a calculated risk guy.

If people whose risk assessment I trust say, yeah, you know, you're covered going down there. And so, you know, we jumped on and we went down to the South. And the, you know, we were at a military installation. and I had a female negotiator with me. It was her first time overseas. Every negotiator their first time overseas are going as a second seat as a co-pilot, as a wingman.

And so it's her first gig overseas and we get to this military installation. The first briefing we get is what's the evacuation route, aka, also known as bugout. How do we bug out in the event that the terrorists overrun, our position. I remember thinking like,

I saw her glaring at me at the side. You know, you know, Samuel Jackson, John Travolta, Pulp Fiction when, you know, Travolta says the Jackson,

I could feel your look. I can feel your look. You know, I could feel the look coming at me from the side. Like, if our position gets overrun, and I was just like,

I, you know, it's not always like this. That was, it was a dodgy one. I like how in the book you start off, like, one of your first days on the job, you're dealing with a hostage negotiation in a bank. And I actually thought it was really fascinating that you said, these are so incredibly rare. They're like one every 20 years because when you watch movies, it feels like these things happen all the time. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, the movies love bank robbers with hostages. And, you know, the bad guys, their intention, if they take hostages, is be gone before the police show up. and they know the police are on their way. They have a tendency to get out of there before the good guys show. So, yeah, it is a rare event. In those situations, is it like the movies where they want a plane fueled up, ready to take them across the world or a boat or something like that?

Well, you know, they're going to, they're going to rational thinking is going out the window. They're in a high-stress environment. They're not thinking things through, which, actually is the case for almost everyday human existence because your biggest problem is your biggest problem, right? Yeah. You know, I get out of bed this morning and there were a couple things that were, that have been nagging at me and raising my stress levels. And a guy I follow on Instagram is Woody Belford, who's a black male dude in England in a wheelchair. And Woody would gladly trade his problems for mine.

Sure. So, you know, your biggest problem is your biggest problem. I'm stressed out over something. And here's a dude in a wheelchair. So, yeah, you know, I almost forgot what their question was. It prompted this diatribe on stress. But, you know, everybody's feeling stress. Well, we're talking about, like, the ridiculous demands from the bankrupts.

Yeah, you know, they're going to throw something out there. You know, ideally, actually, it's a really good sign of a bankrupt. asked for any means of escape because that is a clear signal that they want to live, which means we're going to talk them out. And it's actually, thanks for you opening the door on this one for me because, you know, you want to listen for what's really driving the other side. A lot of people not understanding the dynamics of hostage negotiation don't know that it's a highly positive sign of an escape demand. An escape demand means they want to live. We got something to talk

about in business negotiations. If they're demanding, they're feeling pressure. I need a price reduction now. Your reaction to that should be, sounds like you're under a lot of pressure. Sounds like you're under a lot of stress. I mean, what is what they're asking for actually telling you about what's going on in their life. Guy says I need a car in 60 seconds or the hostage dies. I'm not scared that the hostage is dying at 60 seconds. I'm happy that the bad guy wants to live. It's something to talk about.

The future. And every human being in every interaction is driven by their vision of the future. So when the bank robber says, give me a plane in 60 seconds or this hostage dies, obviously you can't get a plane in 60 seconds. What's your response to that? Well, my first response is going to be sounds like you want to live. And this is what you're talking about in the book.

This is mirroring. Sounds like looks like. Well, it's close. The mirroring is the repetition of one of three-ish words. This is labeling. It's labeling. So it sounds like you want to live. And they'll probably say, yeah, of course I want to live, but get me my plane.

Yeah, well, so, and first of all, if they do that, that. I've now chewed up three seconds. He feels on some level we're collaborating. And what he didn't, what people don't say is how you really understand what's going on. It's, you know, that old phrase of silence is definitely. What's not being said? He didn't say, yeah, I want to live, but give me my plane. You just lost three seconds. You got 55 seconds. When he said, you want me to live, but give me my plane, he did not refer to the clock again. So what wasn't said is as important as what is said that for at least the moment, the clock has dropped out of the conversation. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens, which is a super important part of my morning routine.

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slash insight. Again, that's athletic greens.com slash insight to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Athletic Greens. So when that clock does get down to zero, what are you hoping, you know, have you come to a solution at this point? Well, you know, we've, if it gets down to zero, like if, if I'm interacting with you. Yeah. And a clock and I'm, you know, I'm not saying no, but I'm trying to see. So you don't actually say the words no. No, no, no, I'm not going to say no.

I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to imply difficulty. Yeah. I'm going to say, you know, I'm never going to say I'll try. I'm going to say that's going to be difficult. I'm going to say, you know, I don't know if you know, but it's chaos out here. I mean, it is a six ring. It ain't a three ring circuits. It's a six ring circus.

And there's eight commanders and they're all arguing over who's in charge and they're waiting to see who else is going to be in charge. Now, I'm going to start telegraphing to you. I'm not going to say that what you asked for isn't possible. I'm going to let you know what's making it impossible. Now, if you're still ticking a clock down on me, then what's that really telling me is that you're not going to actually give me a chance. Because if I wanted to get you a car in six,

if I wanted to get you a car at all, it ain't happening in 60 seconds. I can't say that. But if the clock is still ticking down, again, what's the dynamic? actually going to say it. I'm going to say, sounds to me like you're not going to give me a chance. Sounds to me like no matter what I say, you're not going to give me a chance. We've had people in business deals while the other side has been shooting down every single solution that they've offered. I had a student of Georgetown in a landlord-tenant negotiation

say it sounds like there's nothing I can say to get you to change your mind, which is almost word for word what I would have used with that bank robber. The landlord came back and said, no, as a matter of fact, here's exactly what I want. And he made the deal.

So calling out the dynamic in a moment, even when you're sort of struggling, that's a great thing about these labels. If you can just stay in the moment, and focus on the moment that there's a massive amount of things that'll come to you. Where we run into trouble is we're so focused on where it's

going our goal that we're not in the moment. We're, as I said before, we're worried about the future. We're focused on the future instead of the moment. That's a real struggle for anybody over the age of 23. The fact that it seems to be more about

how you're saying it rather than what you're saying, especially since most of these negotiations you're talking about are really just using your voice. Yeah, you know, I don't know if you're Yogi Bear, the baseball player, you know, yogiisms, he used to say baseball was 90% mental and the other half is physical.

So, you know, negotiation is 90% tone of voice. The other half is choice of words. The math doesn't add up. But in point of fact, how you're saying something is actually going to have a neurological impact on a person before you've even finished the word, let alone the sentence. So before your word is complete or before the follow-on words, which add context and meaning or before the sentence is finished.

You know, you've spoken to somebody plenty of times when they started a sentence. You know, the problem is, and you think they're going to tell you you're an idiot, and instead they say, I just don't have a way to get this done. Like that, it was a 90-degree turn because your brain is working so fast before a sentence is done.

Your brain is also reacting to the tone of voice before the sentence is done. So I can begin to color, I can begin to steer a neurological impact on you just on my tone of voice, how you said it exactly as you pointed out a moment ago. As someone who started in FM radio at the start of my career,

I had such a good laugh when you described that voice as the late night FM radio DJ. Yeah. So the idea behind this is it's the down inflection at the end of the sentences? Downward inflection at the end. Yeah.

And also like if you got a high pitch voice, you can still downward inflect. Okay. Like a lot of people have got distracted and they say, I'm not a man. I don't have a deep voice. And my reaction to that is, okay, I didn't do a good job describing this.

You know, because it's downward inflection. it's slowing your pace. You know, it's, you know, trying to soften it as much as possible. Actually, it was just, you know, we just started fireside as a new social media app that we just jumped into with both feet. One of our trainers, Sandy Hine, who teaches a woman's power hour for negotiation. And she and I are doing a fireside talk just a few minutes ago. She picked up some things on a late night FM DJ voice that helps, helps,

women physiologically. She says if you tuck your chin, you will downward and flick more naturally. And how you're positioning your chin at different moments is a great way to then have your words land the way you want them to. Like if you got something harsh to say that you want to land gently, if you tuck your chin, I mean, you even heard me do it.

You're a downward and deflect. If you want to proactively diffuse a negative emotion, actually a great way to catch people off guard in a good way is with the words, I'm sorry. So, especially as a woman, you should raise your chin when you say, I'm sorry, because you're owning it and you're making people understand it as a precursor for what you're getting ready to say. So if you wanted to say you got bad news, you might say, I'm sorry, I've got bad news.

It was an upward insertion with the raise of the chin and the dropping of the chin to land the telegraph, bad news is coming. So, you know, there's a lot of interesting ways you can play with this. I think all of this is so fascinating. I'm sorry is also something you point out in the book. It's a good way to say no without having to actually say no. Yeah, or we use I'm sorry as a precursor to assertion in so many instances. You know, and again, you asked me before that we say no. I'll imply it. That doesn't work for me. is a way to say no. Is a general way to say no.

I'm sorry. That doesn't work for me. It's a really general way to say no, but you own it and the other side doesn't feel attacked. With so much of correspondence and communication happening now via text or email, can you still negotiate if it's over email or over a text? Yeah, and that's a great question. There's a couple of, yet the answer is yes.

with caveats. First of all, your tone is always going to be read harshly unless you put in what we call softeners. Like I sent an email a long time ago where the way I wrote it was just one word response, no. And in my head, I'm hearing no.

Now the other person read it and saw, no, screaming at it. So, you know, if you don't soften, your words, then it's going to be read harshly. How do you soften your words? I'm sorry, I'm afraid, sprinkled in liberally. I'm sorry, I'm afraid, no. It would be a way to soften it.

Rule one, cautious a tone of voice thrown softens. Rule two, just try to make one point. Most people in emails make seven points. And then, you know, on the third one, the other side reads it goes off on a tangent. I like, you didn't read it all the way to the end. Well, you wouldn't play chess via email. If you were, you put one move in one email.

Look at emails as chess moves, one at a time. Your only job is to get across one point. And then finally, something that people violate in emails and in verbal communications, the last impression is the lasting impression. whatever you're compelled to start that email with, the positive things that you wanted to say, have to at least be duplicated at the end, if not removed from the beginning entirely and put at the end.

If you're sending somebody an email, you genuinely want to work things out. That's probably what you would write at the beginning. Look, I'm sending you this email because I genuinely want to work things out. I genuinely hold you in positive regard. I genuinely want to. have a long-term relationship. I genuinely like you personally.

Put all that at the end. The last impression is the lasting impression. People usually put cheap shots at the end of their emails. I remember an email I got probably about four years ago from a partner who was not treating us well. And this person was trying to love to use guilt. Victimology. You know, victimology is good and short-term, bad long-term.

So at the very end, she wrote, you know, we started this partnership with really high hopes, and it just hasn't gone that way. And the last two words were some partnership, period. Wow. And that's what rang in my ears. And I remember sitting there thinking like, I'm never forgetting to this day, the last impression is a lasting impression. I don't know how this person meant it. Yeah. But it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

which persist to this day. Wow. Yeah, that's something you'll never forget. I'll never forget that one. Yeah. I mentioned it earlier. I mentioned it earlier, but what exactly is mirroring

and how exactly does it work? Yeah, that's a great question because it gets confused a lot of times with the body language mirror. Yeah. Now, the hostage negotiators mirror, the Black Swan Method mirror, is not the body language mirror.

it's not the body language mirror. Secondly, we don't like and the black swan group does not teach the body language mirror. So black swan methods mirror is a repeating of one to three-ish words. It could be only one. If it's more than five, it's turning into a paraphrase, it's too long. Repeating what the other person said word for word, one to three-ish words. We teach it the last one-to-three words when you've got enough practice time in, you know, 63, 64 times, trying it two or three times a day. You got mirroring down in a space of a week or two. That's why they often say it takes 21 days to learn a habit, right? You get your reps in, you could mirror, you can move it all over. It doesn't have to be the last rewards. It's a great skill to, when you're caught off guard and you're so shocked

and what the other person just said when you want to go, what are you thinking? Where is that coming from? You know, a mirror is a great way to get them to expand using different words.

It's much better than what did you mean by that. Because if you ask me what I meant by something, I'm probably going to say it again, same words only louder, kind of like an American overseas, right? If I'm louder, you can automatically understand them. Sure. That's the Black Swan method mirror.

The body language mirror is when I mimic your physical movement, your physical posture. If you cross your legs, I cross my legs. If you lean to one side, I lean to that side. If you put your hand to your chin, I put my hand to my chin. And sometimes people even want to mirror tonality or word choice. And it's like if somebody's angry, then the way. I bring them down, and I use the same angry tone of voice.

And then they feel that we're in sync. And we align on, and then I start to come down and I lead them down. No, you wasted time being angry. You should have come down. You started the late night FM DJ voice, and that brought them down.

You didn't realize that you being angry with them was a complete waste of time. And the neurochemistry tells us that being angry with them fuels the rage, it doesn't diffuse the rage. So that's the first problem. And then many people who are disingenuous that I can't trust

will start to mirror my body language to manipulate me. And we strongly advocate, do not engage in a behavior that the sleazy people engage in. And the sleazy people love to mirror body language. Give me an example of the mirroring technique that you guys use, repeating one or three words. The technique that we use?

I see what you did there. And you felt yourself bite for just a second, even though you were looking. See, you felt yourself bite. And that's, and that's, exactly what it is. It's one to three-ish words. One time there's a colleague of mine, John Richardson, brilliant dude, teaches negotiation at MIT and at Harvard. The way John tests ideas is he wants to argue with you. He's got this great playful tone of voice. I mean, he's got the playful

tone of voice mastered. So even when he's being argumentative, it doesn't feel argumentative because his tone is so good. And we're sitting around drinking one night and he goes like, you know, I don't think this mirroring thing. I just, I just don't think it works at all. I don't see how it would be useful to repeat the last one to three words. And I said, the last one to three words, he goes, yeah, I just, you know, I just don't, and wait a minute, you just got me. You know, it's the last one of three words. Or, you know, and even with a control or a control freak negotiation, a bank robbery at the Chaseman, hadn't bank, you know, I'm, I'm asking a bad guy about the van. We narrowed down their getaway van. And he said,

says, he says, you chase my driver away. I go, we chase your driver away. He goes, yeah, when he saw the police, he cut and run. He just gave up his getaway driver. He didn't mean to do that. Yeah. You know, control freak negotiators found themselves blurting stuff out they did not intend to say as a result of my mirror. So mirroring is a great bail you out skill when you're shocked by what you heard. And it also gets the other side to talk. I think one of the scariest negotiations for regular people is when they buy a car. Because I think that the second they go into buy a car, whether it's new or used, they feel like they're being taken advantage of from the second they get there.

How can they take control over the situation to make sure that it's fair for both parties? Yeah, you know, the great thing. And, you know, never split the difference. I talk about when I bought my Toyota full runner using this same scenario. And actually on our YouTube channel, Black Swan Group is a YouTube channel. We have several other regular normal people who use the same car buying approach. And it really is, you say what they, the, if you say what the salesman is going to say, it leaves them speechless. So I'm totally in love with this gorgeous salsa red pearl Toyota forerunner.

It was really, besides being in love with the color, there was only three of them for, and they were all in the same lot within a thousand miles. And it was unique. It was beautiful. Everything about it was working against me. What the other side would have thought is normally leverage. I'm in love with it. It's rare. If I wanted, I got to pay a premium.

There aren't 50 of them out there. So I say to him, look, I'm in love with this. I'm absolutely in love with the truck because now he can't point that out to me. I'm nuts over the color. Instead of using it against me, I've now deactivated one of his main arguments by articulating. And I said, you know, I can't find his truck anywhere else. You guys could probably get more than what you're asking for. You know, I'm embarrassed to, to, you know, to, you know,

even to not pay your price because it's worth more what you're asking. And then I hit him with, how am I supposed to do that? And, you know, he just stared at me and he blinked. And he got up and he,

and he went in the back. And the first time he went in the back. Now, I had him go back and forth with that same approach five times before he finally came down to the price that I had offered. But the first time he went in the back, he was gone so long.

I sat there thinking like, he's coming all the way down of my price. I should have started with a lower price. Oh, that's funny. Now, I sent him back and forth five times, back and forth. And every time I said the same thing. I said his argument. I took the wind out of his sales.

There was no counter argument ever. I mean, these guys are conditioned for counter argument, book value, this value, all this value, all this other external criteria that people want to argue over. I don't even go there. I use their arguments against them by deactivate them. And I love it when people send me videos because we post them on our YouTube channel. We get several of them where people have gone out, got massive discounts on vehicles with that same approach. I feel like sometimes at a car dealership, they're just trying to fit into your monthly payment.

So they're going, well, how much do you want to pay a month? And how do you work with that type of an argument? Yeah, and actually I did a podcast recently where a guy says, yeah, we're not going to talk price. We're going to talk monthly payment. Yeah. You know, I just say, look, I'm sorry. I'm not doing a monthly payment. It doesn't work for me to talk about it like that.

You know, I'm going to start to telegraph no, Adam. You know, at some point at time, the one difference, hot-sitist negotiators, we never actually come out and say no. That's finally. Business negotiations, if you're not prepared, to do that, you're taking yourself hostage, principally because there's some cutthroat negotiators' procurement, for example, are going to keep pounding you until you said no twice. They're actually taught to keep beating you up until you said no twice,

which is why you had to be prepared to say no. So I'm going to let it out a little at a time. And my first one is, I'm sorry, I'm not talking monthly payment. I'm just not. No, if I have to go there, but I'm going to give you a lot of warning before I say no. And then, of course, since I'm prepared to say no and mean it, I'm also prepared to walk out. Now, salesman's survival instincts are finely tuned between somebody who's ready to walk out and mean it and someone who's just trying to fake it. And I don't take myself hostage, which means I will gently and politely turn on my heels and leave.

And their survival instinct will pick that up. It sounds like, I don't even mean to do that, Chris. It sounds like the most important thing that you could have when you're entering a negotiation is the ability to actually listen to what the other person is saying. Yeah, I would combine it with two things. Don't take yourself hostage by believing that you can't say no. And like neck and neck with that is really listening to what the other person is saying. They're going to tell you all you need to know if you give them a chance. When did you realize that the techniques you were using with the FBI were actually something that could be applied to not just business negotiations, but every day,

negotiations. You know, I kind of started sensing it, like way back when my journey began with being told a volunteer on a suicide hotline, and then I did. And then I thought, you know, if this stuff works for people in crisis, why is what we are day to day? Is it that different? And I started experimenting with it in my day-to-day interactions and learning, you know, and fitting it in. And empathy, yeah, it was just empathy, emotional intelligence, and it does work. And then what really made the validation of what I always thought was when I went through Harvard Law School's class as a student. You know, I negotiated my way in as an FBI agent. I was the only FBI agent I'm aware of onboard hostage negotiated to ever go through their class. Others could have done it.

They just, they didn't ask. I don't know why, but they didn't. And when I was about halfway through that, my teacher at the time, now a friend and colleague and mentor, Shilohen, wrote a great book called Difficult Conversations. She said, you know, you hostage negotiators, you guys are doing the same stuff we're doing. It's just that the stakes are different. And that was really the validation, the external validation, you know,

to let me know I was on the right track. I've thoroughly enjoyed this, Chris. And I can't recommend your book enough, never split the difference available wherever you get books. And your master class is also available on masterclass.com, where else can people find you? Thanks for asking. Yeah. The gateway is really our newsletter, which is free. It's complimentary. If it's free, I'll take three is what a friend of mine used to say.

But, you know, the real value there is not that it's free, it's actionable. Like, you know, I got a couple of newsletters that I get that they're so packed with information. Like, I got to take a nap after I've read it because it's exhausting. You know, ours is concise and actionable. It comes out on Tuesday mornings. I think like 8 o'clock, whatever time zone you're in, we adjust it because we think Tuesday morning is when you got Monday behind you, you're ready to get into the week. Best way to subscribe is text to sign up function.

Send the message, Black Swan Method, three words, not cap sensitive. make sure you get spaces between the words. Text Black Swan method to the number 33-7-7. That's 33777. You'll get a, if I've described this properly, you'll get a response back asking for your email, it'll sign you. And then can they also sign up on your website as well?

Is that an option? Yeah. Black SwanltD.com. Upper right-hand corner of the tab. as for the blog. Plus, there's tons of free stuff all over our website. We put a lot of stuff out for free to help people get up to speed. And then wherever you are on your negotiation journey,

one of the Black Swan coaches can meet you there and help you move forward. I know you talk a lot about gratitude, Chris, and I end every interview talking about gratitude. So what are three things in your life that you're grateful for as we sit here right now. Yeah, you know, I like being grateful for the little things. And so I got up this morning. I was grateful for my coffee maker. I was grateful for the coffee cup that I drank out of. And I was grateful for the pen that I wrote down in my daily journal, the three things I was grateful for. I love that. And I've loved this conversation. I'm

going to Las Vegas this weekend. And when I check into the hotel, I'm going to try your technique and we'll see if I'm sleeping in a suite that night. Nice, nice. Nothing up, nothing in. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Chris. I enjoy the conversation. How good was that? That conversation is the very definition of what this show is all about. Insight. Big thank you to Chris for joining us and for giving us all of that knowledge. Thank you to you for being on the journey with us. I'm sure you know somebody who would get a ton out of this. So please share this episode with them. Take a screenshot. Tag us on social media, on Twitter. He is at Voss Negotiation. On Instagram, you can find him at the FBI negotiator. And you can find me at Chris Van Fleet.

And I seriously can't recommend Chris's book enough. It's called Never Split the Difference, negotiating as if your life dependent on it. Pick up. a copy, send me a message, and let me know what you think. And I'll leave you with a quote from that book, actually. This is so good. The most dangerous negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. Be great. Be grateful. Have an amazing weekend. We'll see you on the next one for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all.

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