Insight with Chris Van Vliet - How Ariel Helwani became a UFC insider, why Brock Lesnar won't fight again, memorable interviews

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

Ariel Helwani joins Chris Van Vliet from his home in New York City. He talks about his passion for Mixed Martial Arts led to him creating his job as a UFC insider, who some of his most memorable interviews have been with, his friendship with Daniel Cormier, why he thinks Brock Lesnar will never fight again, his love of wrestling as a kid and being in attendance at Survivor Series in 1997 for the Bret Hart screwjob, how he thinks UFC wouldn't exist if it wasn't for pro wrestling and much more! Please subscribe and support the show by supporting our sponsors!  INDEED- Get a $75 credit to boost your job post by going to http://indeed.com/BlueWire BETONLINE- Get a new sign up bonus by using the promo code BLUEWIRE at http://betonline.ag Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What's going on, my friends? Before we get to the episode, I am so pumped to welcome Abner Mares to the Blue Wire Podcast Network. Abner is a world champion boxer, Olympian, sports commentator. But the title that he's most proud of is being. a dad to two little girls. On Blue Wire's new podcast called On the Hook with Abner Maras, we'll hear from Abner, his family, fellow athletes, and other people who made him the boxer and the man that he is today. They'll chat about topics like Abner's journey from being a kid on the streets to becoming

a boxing champ as well as sports, music, culture, and family life. You can listen to On the Hook with Abner Maras, wherever you're listening. to this podcast right now. Episodes in English are out on Tuesdays, and episodes in Spanish are out on Wednesdays. Now hit my music. It's Chrysalmania, brother. That's a great question.

Look at you, man. With the powerful questions. Woo! This is the Chris Van Vlachio. Chris Van Vleecho. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris! All right, and here we go.

This is the Chris Van Ville. BLEAD show, and thanks for being with us on another audio adventure. This episode is brought to you by Indeed and Bet Online, and Ariel Hawani is someone I've wanted to sit down with and pick his brain for years. We talk about it a lot here, but he basically created a job that didn't really exist before him. He's like the Adam Schaefter or the Ian Rappaport of mixed martial arts. And for those of you who might not get that reference,

they're NFL insiders who know the ins and outs of the sport and often break a lot of the big stories. I mean, Ariel is just such a perfect example of setting a goal and not stopping at anything until that goal has been accomplished. Oh, just so much great insight in this conversation. Take a screenshot. Tag me on Instagram so I can share it and say hi. I'm at Chris Van Fleet and Ariel is at Ariel Hawani. It's easy. It's just, it's just our names.

And subscribe to the show if you haven't yet already. And please keep those reviews coming in on Apple Podcasts. And I will keep reading one of them on every single episode. I don't know why I said every single, every single episode. Georgeito Jr. 19 says, great job and keep up the great work. I love this podcast, man. I've been listening almost every day. Wow. Working my way all over the place,

and I can't stress how big of a fan I am. Awesome work by far. The interview that I, awesome work, by far the interview with Nick Aldus is one of my favorites. I became a fan of him. Keep doing what you do, one step closer.

to 2,000 reviews. Well, yes, sir. And thank you very much for that review. And yes, we are creeping ever so close to 2,000 reviews. Right now, we are at 1,212. We're at 12, 12. But we've got lots of time to reach that goal of 2,000 reviews. The goal is to hit that by my birthday, my birthday of next year. So May 19th, 2021. So if you're listening to this in the future, and it's past May 19th, 2021. I'm assuming we already have 2,000 reviews. But I hope that you're also enjoying this podcast on like your hologram phone

or the chip that's implanted in your head or something. It's the future, man. It's the future. Ariel Hawani is such a fascinating guy with such a fascinating story. We talk about how he grew up in Canada, watching wrestling. We talk about the fact that he was actually at Survivor Series in 1997 for the Brethart screw job.

He was in attendance when that happened. He talks about how he first found out about UFC and what made him fall in love with mixed martial arts. And from there, we talk about how he ended up creating this job and how he wanted to report on this. Went from Canada to going to school in the U.S. He went to school in Syracuse and kind of just built this whole thing up for himself. We talk about his favorite UFC feuds.

his friendship with Daniel Cormier, and whether or not he thinks Brock Lesder will ever fight again. So here we go, give it up for Ariel Hawani. It's pleasure to be chatting with you. Thank you so much for doing this, sir. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. I feel like UFC is one of the few sports that's really been thriving

with everything that's been going on over the last six, seven months. So what's COVID look like for you? Well, yeah, that is true. UFC has not really taken all that much of a break, the sport of MMA in general as well, but UFC in particular came back in May and they tried to even come back in April. They never really wanted to take a break, to be honest. So I think they benefited in May, June, July, when there were no sports going on. There was a lot of people who started to get into it, you know, betting on it, things of that nature.

So I think they really, they profited and benefited from that. For myself, it's changed things a little bit because I don't go to a studio. I do all my shows from home. I haven't been to an event. Now there's pluses and minuses to that, you know, not having to get on a plane all the time, being with my family, things of that nature are all great things. You do sort of miss the big event, the feel, Las Vegas, the crowd, the energy, the buzz, all that stuff and more. for the most part, I don't think I can complain all that much, to be honest.

I think there are other people who, you know, certainly have a reason to be upset and complain. Thank God. My family's healthy. Everyone's good. I still have a job, so nothing to complain about. You know, I find your story just so, so fascinating. Congratulations to you on everything you've built, because we're about the same age. And coming up for you, there would be no one that you could really look up to as an MMA journalist. You basically carved this path to yourself basically created this job for yourself. Yep, that is true. I mean, there were other people who were covering the sport long before I was. I'm not a, you know, a pioneer or anything like that, but I always wanted to be a broadcaster and I was always interested in basketball and baseball,

football, but I was also interested in the fight game too, combat sports. And when I decided that I wanted to pursue this career, I realized once I got to Syracuse University that there were a lot of other kids who had the same dream that I did, basketball, baseball, football, et cetera. And I've always liked to, you know, go down a different path and be a little different than everyone else. So I remember telling my parents in 2001 that there's this sport called mixed martial arts that's not quite, you know, mainstream and popular just yet. But I think in 10 years it's going to be popular and there's no one really covering it. There's no one really owning it. There's no Howard CoSell of MMA is what I told them. And I want to be that guy. I want some executive in some office

in 10 years to say, you know, I know nothing about this sport, but who's the guy? Let me find that guy. Who's the voice of MMA? And so that's why when I got there, I had my own radio show that focused on MMA and things of that nature. And I always kind of kept my eye on the sport. And in 2007, and decided to go for it and, you know, really try to make this into a career. And now you're the guy. Now you're the guy. And actually, I was very inspired by the work you were doing. I would see your interviews on YouTube.

And, you know, I was interviewing some wrestlers. I was doing a lot of celebrity interviews at the time. And I thought, well, if Ariel can do this and he can throw it on his YouTube channel and you were getting millions of views at the time, I thought, well, I can do this. In fact, if you look at some of my early interviews, it's very inspired by me saying, I'm Chris Van Fleet here at the name of the arena, and I'm here with very much like what you did. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that people don't realize that the fight game might not be an MMA and pro wrestling obviously goes into that bucket. It might not be mainstream like basketball and baseball and football, of course, but there's a rabid fan base and a very loyal fan base that wants to consume so much. and they're not really being served, and they're also used to being online, right? Like, they're not, I always said, you know, MMA fans aren't used to picking up the New York Times or back then they're not used to turning on SportsCenter and seeing coverage.

So why don't I just essentially program my own network? And that's my YouTube channel and give them, you know, pre-flight, post-fight interviews, analysis, things of that nature. And that's kind of the way I looked at it like that. I was my own network. And thankfully, you know, people like the stuff. and kept coming back for more, and it brought me all the way here.

So how do you get credentialed? When you're someone who doesn't have an outlet and fresh out of school, how do you get credentialed to cover a UFC event? Well, it's certainly not that easy, especially when it comes to the UFC. So when I graduated in 2004, I actually took a job at HBO Sports

working in their sports documentary department. I was working in production. And I actually worked in production between 2004 and 2007 for a minute, it there, I kind of was like, all right, you know, this is the path that I'm going to go down. And then in 2007, I got a job with Spike TV, which at the time was the home of the UFC. Yeah. I thought that that would be perfect because I was a big MMA fan.

And they're obviously the home of the UFC, the broadcast home of the UFC. So I can work in production. I'm getting good at that. And it would just be perfect because I'm so passionate about mixed martial arts. Well, when I got there, I realized that it's not really all that of an interesting job, at least for me because they didn't produce any of the content. The UFC produced all the content, and they just kind of took the content and put it on the air.

It was a lot of managing, but not a lot of creation. And so after a week, I quit. And I went to my boss's office at the time, and I said that, you know, this job just, I don't think it's for me. And, you know, I'm sorry, and I appreciate the opportunity, but, you know, I would like to go our separate ways. He was very upset, said that I was unprofessional. that I would regret this and I would never, you know, I would never live this down and all this stuff.

And they actually made me stick around for a month until they found someone to replace me. And it was at that time that I recognized this is the crossroads of my career. And I started my own website from my cubicle at Spike TV. And I gave myself six months to get noticed. I didn't care of 10 people or 10,000 people looked at the site. I just wanted people to know that I could interview fighters. That was my main goal. So I would send out 20 to 30 messages via MySpace to the fighters back then.

And two, three, four, five would reply. And every morning at 8 a.m. I would post an interview with a fighter. And it was great. And it started to get some momentum. Unfortunately, by March of 2008, so now one month left on my self-imposed deadline, nothing was really going on.

I wasn't getting any offers. There weren't a lot of job opportunities in the sport. But with three days left, I did get a job opportunity. A new website was being launched, and they found my stuff, and they gave me an opportunity to pretty much run the site. And so that's when it started to get rolling. Now, this is now April of 2008, and I applied for UFC credentials right off the bat,

and they would not credential me. They said the site was too small. They only credentialed mainstream outlets, blah, blah, blah. It was all a bunch of nonsense, if you asked me, especially given the fact that I have a journalism degree from Syracuse University, and I'm clearly professional in trying to do things the right way. And they had a lot of people who weren't professional covering those events back then. And then six or so months later, Kevin Ioli of Yahoo Sports actually spoke to Dana White and said, you know, there's this kid who's doing a great job of covering the sport and you guys aren't

credentialing him. You know, you guys really should let him in. And, you know, to his credit, Dana then spoke to the PR team and they let me in. Unfortunately, so now this is like six months into me doing this full time. And there were a lot of people, you know, a lot of other promoters, strike force, elite XE, affliction. They were letting me in. I'll always be very, very thankful to them for that. Unfortunately, once they finally let me in, the site shut down because they were sold

to another company and I was out of a job again. And then when I got back on my feet, maybe five months later, for a, a website called versus.com, the TV network versus owned by Comcast, which is NBCSN. They hired me to cover MMA for them because they aired WEC and UFC fights. I reapply to UFC, and they still didn't let me in. And they said that, you know, your site is not big enough. And that was mind-blowing to me because I was like, well, I'm the broadcast partner. Like, how could it not be good enough?

But eventually, cooler heads prevailed. And I got in. So once, you know, it was April of 2009 is when I still. started to fully get credentialed to the events. And so I say all this, it's, it's tough. Like, they really, they don't make it easy for you. It's not like you can just, like, have a website and waltz right in there. They kind of make you go through some stuff in order to get in.

But hearing this story of you basically creating this for yourself, not giving up, is so incredibly inspiring. Now, I'm really curious to find out what your first exposure was to UFC, because for me, it was going to Blockbuster in the mid-90s and actually renting the, VHS. I mean, I started at number one. It was one, two, three, and I kind of went on from there. What was it for you? My grandparents in Montreal had this paperview box, like this, you know. Oh, yeah, I remember that. And they would replay them over and over and over again. So, like, I didn't watch UFC One live, but I definitely saw it on some like, you know, Friday afternoon,

random thing where I'm at their house and it's on. And it's like, wait a second, I love basketball, excuse me, I love fighting. I love boxing. I love MMA. and it looks like pro wrestling, but it's not pro wrestling, and it looks like boxing, and there's the lights, and there's a cage, and that feels like pro wrestling, but this is real, there's a big guy fighting as a smuggler, and I was just sort of captivated by it all. It was just fascinating to me, so that's when I first started to watch it, and this is like 93, 94, and, you know, the internet is not a real thing, and it's, you know, at that time, I'm, like, 12, so I'm not really, like, walking over to the, the,

the video store or something like that. And so you just kind of like catch it here and there. And then it became really hard to follow it because once the internet became a thing, it got taken off of pay-per-view and it was like really hard to keep up with it. But I'll never forget being in my dorm room in 2002. And I was watching a show called The Best Am Sports Show Period. It was on Fox Sports Net. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, and Tidor Tis and Kent Shamrock were on. And I was blown away that they would be covering those guys, right? Like UFC fighters on a sports show with John Sally and Rob Dibble and people like that. Like, wow, this is amazing. And that's when the light really went off my head. Like, there's something here. Like people are starting to notice this sport. And I feel like it's gaining momentum.

And I just kind of always remember where exactly I was when I was flipping through the channels. I saw them. I was like, wow, something is happening here. You know, you mentioned there's a lot of parallels between, pro wrestling and MMA. What do you think MMA would look like if pro wrestling didn't exist? Oh, I mean, I don't even know if there would be MMA, to be honest, if pro wrestling didn't exist.

I think MMA's roots are fully entrenched in the world of pro wrestling. And anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves. Like they take a lot from the world of pro wrestling, starting with Dana White and the way, you know, he runs things very much like Vince McMahon to the way they promote, to the way they build characters and fights and feuds and things of that nature. I mean, it's all pro wrestling. It is pro wrestling, but a real version of pro wrestling. And that's actually, like, when I started to cover MMA a lot more seriously, I actually, that's when my interest in pro wrestling waned a lot because I felt like pro wrestling was so predictable as opposed to MMA where you have these two guys. And you know, you would think like, okay, this guy, the promotion probably wants him or her to win, but you obviously don't know because it's not scripted. And so it to me, MMA has all the best elements of pro wrestling only it's unpredictable and that's the best part you know we both grew up in canada we live in the u.s now we both both grew up in Canada about 500 kilometers away from each other

haven't said kilometers in a long time i don't know many other canadians that actually made the jump and went to school in the u.s that's a big big move so what was the decision for you it's obviously a lot more money to go to university in america what was the decision for you to go to syracuse yeah uh obviously i have to thank my parents for that for that for the the opportunity to go to Syracuse. It wasn't a thing at all in my community. You know, I grew up in Montreal, Jewish community. Everyone goes to McGill or Concordia, those two schools. No one leaves. Certainly no one, you know, and if they leave, they're going to, you know, Western or something like that. I went to Loria. Yeah, exactly. So you're going to schools

like that. And those are great schools. But I'll never forget being in the ninth grade. and I was supposed to be reading some textbook, but I had an issue of Sports Illustrated, like, you know, in between. I was breaking it. And it was an issue where I was a subscriber to Sports Illustrated. And it was an issue where they were breaking down the best schools in America for all sorts of things,

XYZ, football, whatever, whatever, whatever. And I remember there was a little blurb that stated that the best school in America for sports broadcasting is Syracuse University. you know, names like Bob Costas and Marv Albert went there and I was like, wow, I can't believe that there's. And like, like, a light kind of just went off in my head. Like, wow, you go to school to hone your skills as a sports broadcaster. This is incredible. So that's the ninth grade. And I remember thinking to myself like, all right, that's what I want to do. Because I used to watch

sporting events, really to watch the broadcasters, to listen to them, to see how they opened the show, close the show, how they interacted with their, you know, their colleagues and things like that. And I just was so fascinated by that world, the magic of TV. And that's kind of when I decided. And again, to their credit, when I told my parents that I wanted to be, A, you know, a sports journalist slash broadcaster, and B, I want to go to Syracuse. They never deterred me. They never said that's crazy. They said, absolutely, like, we're 100% behind you.

And also to their credit, I wanted to leave Syracuse multiple times. I was not happy there. I didn't have a great experience there, not for any particular. reason I was just very homesick, to be honest. All my friends were back home, having a great time in college, you know, living in apartments in Montreal and things like that. And I just felt like I was missing out. And there were plenty of times where I wanted to go back home or not return. And they didn't let me quit. And that would have been the biggest regret of my life. So getting to go to Syracuse and then graduating from Syracuse, that allowed me to get a visa to work in the

United States and kind of on and on it goes. And I don't know if I'm here if I don't go to Syracuse first. Wow. It's like one of those things where it's like the butterfly. fly effect. One thing leads to another leads to another. Growing up in Montreal, do you speak fluent French? Yeah. So I actually, when I was a young kid, maybe up until four or five, I could only speak French. I was on a microphone. And I remember going to pre-K and they told me that I wasn't able to start just yet because I couldn't speak any English. So I went back home and I remember my mom like teaching me the basics, and then I rejoined the school several months later. Over time, all my friends were anglophone. Our neighborhood was anglophone, and my English is way better than my

French. But by law, in Quebec, 50% of the day has to be French. So I can still speak it, understand it. It was way better than, you know, grammar and history and geography, all the science. That was all in French. Unfortunately, it's now been, you know, 19 years. since I lived in Canada, which blows my mind. So I have lost it a little bit. I also went to a Jewish school. So, you know, we were learning French, Hebrew, and English. So I'm trilingual, and my parents speak Arabic. They're from Lebanon and Egypt. And so I can understand that when they speak my Arabic isn't all that good, but I can get the basics when they're talking to each other. So I'm pretty proud of that. So when you talk to someone like GSP, is it an English or French?

usually with GSP you know like early on I will try to you know to like butter him up and say a few things in French but I noticed that he like he always wants to respond to me in English you know the guy who can't speak French wants to practice is French and the guy who's you know Francophone wants to practice is English I do the same with Francis and Ghana so you know I've never done an interview with him in French I've been interviewed in French to talk about my career and MMA and things of that nature but I don't think I've ever done like a full interview in French. So what was the first interview back in the MySpace stage? What was the first interview that you landed? The first one was with Kurt Angle, believe it or not. Wow. Yeah.

Did he great? Yeah. I actually met Kurt Angle prior to becoming a journalist. I met him because I was working for a production company that was doing stuff for Spike TV. And he was with TNA at the time. And we did like a little like promo skit for them in Orlando at Universal Studio. And I wrote it. and we hit it off. And he actually tried to get me a job on the writing team for TNA, but that wasn't really of interest to me. And I'd have to move to Nashville and all this stuff, so it didn't really make all that much sense.

But then we kept in touch. And when I launched the website, he was my first interview. He was obviously a big name. And he had just gotten arrested for a DWI. And so this was his first interview explaining what happened. And I'll never forget, it was like an hour long interview and Dave Meltzer, the wrestling observer, wrote like a huge

recap of it. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe. Like, this is my first interview on my site that I'm launching. And that kind of got in the fight network and live audio wrestling, John Pollock and Marrow and Allen, all those guys. They talked about it as well. And it just kind of snowballed from there. So I will always be, you know, thankful for Kurt doing that for me. So what was the first MMA fighter that you interviewed or who was the first one? you know that's a good question well okay uh so when i talk about like that curt angulf stuff it excludes you know when i was doing it in college right like when i had my radio show um like back back when i had the radio show bruce buffer was on who's the voice of the ufc dan severn

don fry talk to people like that yeah in the new era i'd have to go back like and like when i started to do this full time i'd have to go back because honestly i don't even remember there was so many of them yeah there's been a lot uh but it was great because, you know, I would write to these guys on MySpace. And over time, you know, Tito Ortiz and Chuck Liddell and GSP, they would write me back and they would do interviews. Like the biggest names would write me back. And people were starting to, you know,

it was tough to get the word out about the interviews. So I would email them to people and maybe annoy them. But slowly but surely, you know, the message boards are really starting to pay attention and give me props. And it was really starting to, you know, to snowball to the point where I started to feel confident that I can actually do this for a living. Even though sports may have taken a little bit of a break in 2020, your business didn't. You have to keep moving, and that makes hiring more important than ever.

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your online sportsbook experts. Now with all the interviews you've done, what's been the scariest interview moment that you've had. Scariest. Like, you mean like, that I think someone was going to beat me up? Maybe that or just like it went completely off the rails. Because, you know, what comes to mind for me is whatever you want to call,

what happened with you in Mayhem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when you said off the rails, that's what came to mind. I wasn't necessarily scared. I was more like concerned for him. You know what I mean? I didn't think he was going to do anything to me.

You know, there have been times with, you know, Nick Diaz, where he got mad, that I think, eh, I've never felt, honestly, I've never felt like someone was going to punch me or hurt me or do anything of that nature. You know, there are times where it's got a little close and a little physical, but I've never really felt nervous about anything like that. So I can't really say that there was a time that I was like scared or uncomfortable, you know, fighters are fighters and you have to know how to talk to them and treat them was respect. And, you know, there's emotion involved. And, and I'd like to think that I respect that. And I've never felt like they were going to truly cross the line or anything like that. And thankfully,

no one has. With being as passionate as you are about MMA, did you ever early on go, well, this is something I want to do. I want to get in there. I want to learn how to do this. And it also makes me, you know, appreciate it that much more. Oh, I mean, I've definitely trained never to fight, no way. They possess DNA that I can't even imagine having in my body to go in a cage and have the door locked behind you and you're wearing four ounce gloves and you're just wearing like a cup and shorts. Like that's it. That's all you have like not even shoes or anything. It's insane. Like I have the most respect for them that you could possibly have for all the fighters.

From amateur to pro, from the newcomers to the vets, from the champions to the non-champions. the males and the females, I have so much respect for them as athletes and as human beings. I would never dream of doing that. I would never even fath them. I would never, that's why, you know, when you see,

like throughout my career, I've never done those videos where it's like me punching someone or getting hit or doing like, I feel like there's a line and I'm not them and I can never dream of, you know, doing what they do and being them. And that's why I have so much respect for them. You know, I have, you know,

I boxed. I've done judicious to your point to gain an appreciation of knowledge and because it's fun and it's a good workout and things like that, but not because I have any aspirations to be a fighter. A friend of mine made an argument the other day that the fights we're seeing right now in this COVID era is actually the purest form of MMA that we might ever see because the judges aren't influenced by the crowd. The fighters aren't influenced to push forward because of the crowd. It's just a pure fight. What do you think about that? Oh, I think there is something to be said there. You know, I don't want this to come off the wrong way because I love the fans and they add to the show and they bring energy and a buzz and all that stuff. But I don't think MMA has suffered at all because there are no fans there.

And I think you can gain an appreciation for it. And we've also been programmed to watch fights without fans on the Ultimate Fighter and things of that nature. So I actually think of all the sports, you know, from football to baseball to basketball, fighting, et cetera, the one that has suffered the most is pro wrestling. The product is completely different without fans. It's very sterile. There's just something off. But MMA, hearing the punches, the kicks, the corners, it really hasn't changed.

The way they shoot it and the weight slip, it hasn't changed at all in my mind. It's amazing. I almost don't even remember what it was like as crazy as that sounds. But yeah, so I can understand why someone has a greater appreciation. And I've not heard from one person as far as like, you know, fans go or journalists or anything like that who have said they're like, oh, I can't watch it. It's just not the same. In fact, I've heard from fighters who say they like it better.

I just spoke to Israel Designia who said he likes it better because there's no one screaming out, you know, crazy things in the middle of the fight. So, yeah, I could definitely see someone saying that. I just felt for your friend, D.C. I felt for Daniel in his final match not having that moment, like not being able to share that with fans. Yeah, no, I agree with you. That was kind of sad,

and I was bummed not to be there, to be honest. You know, all these guys deserved to be fighting in a 30,000-seat arena or something like that. Pack crowd, people going down, it's like they all deserve it, each and every one of them. But amazingly, like, D.C. didn't seem to mind. I think he was bummed that his family couldn't be there. But other than that, like, you know,

know, they're competitors. And at the end of the day, you know, I've often asked them like, hey, did you hear in the second round when people started booing when the fight and like, no, I didn't hear it. I'm like, how could you not hear it? It was so loud. They're so locked in that I think it doesn't really matter to them. You know what I mean? And I think this just speaks to that. What do you think is, or what is your favorite MMA feud of all time? Oh, my. There's a lot that come to mind. I mean, right up there is DC and Jones. Because, it was so personal and they're just such incredible fighters. Those are the kind of guys that I think that like when they're 65 or 70,

they'll never see eye to eye. They'll never be on the same page. And it felt real, right? It felt authentic. Connor, Nate is a great one. I don't know if I put Habib and Connor in that one because that one just feels like too mean. You know,

it's like there's a line and I felt like that one crossed the line. And it just like, it was just a lot. It was a lot to handle. So I would probably put those two, and then going back to the old days, obviously, Chuck and Tito, tremendous, Chuck and Randy, tremendous GSP and BJ Penn. GSP and Matt Hughes was incredible. GSP and Matt Sarah was also incredible. Tito and Ken Shamrock was amazing. And Chamrock and Frank Mear was incredible. So, yeah, I mean, there's obviously been a lot, but those are a few that come to mind. How much, like you watched a lot of pro wrestling growing up, right?

A ton, yeah. Not so much anymore, but yeah, a ton. I watched basically from, you know, like, 1985 or so to 1993-ish, and then I got a break till 97. I attended the Survivor Series, the Montreal Screwjob. I was in attendance. Yeah, but I knew nothing about it. I was taking a driving, like a driving lesson with my. buddy and I knew nothing about it and he's like oh man you need to get back into wrestling you know wrestling is great now and I was like eh I was really getting into basketball then and stuff like that

and and I was like yeah what he's like well Survivor series is coming to the the Molson Center which is now the Bell Center in Montreal and I at the time I like I pay attention to these things a pay-per-view never came to Montreal and I always thought that that was weird I was like wow a pay-per-view like one of the big paperviews coming to Montreal I want to go to that even though I knew nothing I didn't know about the the Sean Michaels bread hard feud I knew nothing about what what was going on. And so we went together and throughout the night, he was telling me what was going on, but what was crazy about it was like, I didn't watch now for four or five years. And so I totally missed the everyone bringing a sign to the arena, like the oddities and like Sable and all this stuff.

I was like, what is this? This is a completely different product than I've got pain. Like I missed all that. And I get there and it's like, holy, like this thing is like an explosion of personality and characters and it was just so much energy. and then of course the screw job happens and he explains me what's going on and I remember going back home that night on a Sunday night and going on the internet and now this is like the infancy of the internet right like 97 and going on the websites

and reading the backstory and I was like wow there's like this whole other part of pro wrestling that I didn't know about and that's what got me back into it through the attitude era and all that stuff and then really where I started to you know kind of move on from it was for me at least like the Chris Benoit death I kind of remember

that being a moment where I was like, I don't know how much I want to watch this anymore. When you were at the Molson Center watching the screw job, you must have been so confused by that ending. Oh, yeah, I was totally confused. I mean, honestly, like, you're all the way at the top. We didn't have good seats whatsoever. So, like, it's hard to tell, right?

Like, did he tap? Did he not tap? Did he verbally tap? Like, you know, the announcers help out a lot. Yeah. But then when he's sticking around and he's breaking everything and he's doing WCW, and you're like, oh, wow, something's happening here. You know what I mean?

And this doesn't feel like it's a part of the skit or, you know, the script, I should say. So then when I went home, I remember going to a website called scoops wrestling.com, and I went home and I was like, whoa, I didn't know, you know, because those sites, the quote unquote dirt sheets, they were all following it. And anyone who knew about what was going on was pretty much up to speed. I had no idea. And that's really like, you know, that sort of, like I said, the realism, of it all really fascinated me. And then I started to watch Monday Night Raw and all that stuff.

That was that was it for a lot of people. That was kind of like that kind of jump start of the attitude era. It certainly created the Mr. McMahon character, which we still have 23 years later. Yeah, no, that, I mean, who would have thought? Like the Brett screwed Brett interview with JR is historic. And you might remember this. There was a, there was a show on TSN back of the day off the record with Pauls. Landberg. And he would have those quote unquote shoot interoper. reviews. And it was really cool that a, you know, a mainstream sports show is talking to Vince or Brett Hart out of character, Stone Cold, The Undertaker. And I actually think for Canadians, that helped a lot of us, our age, really get into pro wrestling as well. There were some

weird times when like Raw would be on at like 1am on TSN and that was kind of strange. But I was always a WWF slash E guy, not really a WCW guy, to be honest. The end of WCW fascinating me, because they were like a sinking ship and just throwing anything at the wall. But like when they were both coming up, like when it was NWO versus, you know, slash WCW versus WW, I was, I was very much pro WWF slash WW. Who were some of the broadcasters that you really looked up to as you were getting into this? Non, like, we're not talking wrestling here. It would be all across the board here.

Yeah. My favorites growing up were Marv Albert, the NBA announcer primarily because he was the voice. of the Knicks and I love the Knicks growing up. Bob Costas as well, I just thought he was incredible with his words and his demeanor and his poise and the way he spoke. I mean, it was just also captivating. There was a long time announcer for the Montreal Expos. I grew up an Expos fan named Dave Van Horn, who I like very much he now calls Marlins games. So those are kind of like the three main guys that I really like. But, you know, I just loved all of them. You know, like there was like Dick Irvin who was doing Montreal Canadiens games and, you know, like the NFL guys like Pat Somerall

and John Madden were great and Ahmad Rashad. Like they all fascinated me. But if I had to pick like my top two basically was Costas and Marv Albert. It's great, though, hearing you name some Canadian broadcasters because every time I'm on the other side of this being interviewed and I list off people like George Strombolopoulos. Oh, legend. But people are like, People, you know, here don't know who he is. Yeah, well, he had that show on CNN for a minute. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, George is great.

I'm a big fan of his. I actually interviewed him at one of my first ever UFC events. It was UFC 83 in Montreal, and he was there to support GSP. And I saw him outside the hotel. I wasn't credentialed, but I was there just kind of hanging at the hotel trying to interview people, and I interviewed him. And that was a big thrill. Yeah, George Chamboplas is great.

Rick the Temp, legend from much music back in the day. So, yeah, I grew up with all the. guys as well. And I mean, I think, you know, like the hockey night in Canada was incredible. I mean, obviously Ron McLean and, you know, the whole crew that that does hockey night in Canada and CFL. Like I watch all that stuff and I was very proud. You know, even now like Dan Schellman who does Toronto Blue Jays broadcast. I'm a big fan of his. I try to listen to everyone. And honestly, I don't think I'm one-tenth as good as these people are. I try to listen and emulate and study and just, you know, I honestly admire so many of them. I'm very fascinated still to this day with the world of broadcasting and the way people call

games or do podcasts or, you know, anything, that that whole world is just very interesting to me. Well, you're very good at what you do. And I'm very curious to know what your process looks like going into both a show and going into an interview? Believe it or not, I don't really have a process, you know, because, first of all, when I'm interviewing MMA fighters, like, if you told me right now, Connor McGregor is going to walk in that door, you need to interview him right now.

I'm ready. You know what I mean? Like, I have a weird mind when it comes to this stuff. So, like, I feel like I have compartments in my brain. And all I have to do is open up the Connor compartment and we're good to go. If the undertaker walked into this room or Stone Cold or Kevin Durant or LeBron James, I feel like I could do it right now because I'm constantly reading and learning and studying and all this stuff.

Now, if you told me that Jimmy Johnson, the NASCAR race car driver is walking in, okay, I might need 10 to 50 minutes to just brush up because I'm not, you know, well versed in that world. But I don't write questions. I haven't since I was in college because my feeling is like, let's say we were going out for lunch or coffee or something. I'm not bringing a sheet of questions. You know, we're talking, we're conversing.

You're saying something. I'm saying something. I'm asking a follow-up. You're asking a follow-up. That's just how people communicate. And so I'd rather do it that way than be like, okay, question three. What happened? blah, blah, blah.

Like I need to know these things, you know, as opposed to having to write them down. So that's kind of the way I am. But, you know, I'm also kind of lying when I say I have no process because like when we're done here, I'll be on the internet and I'm reading stuff. and that's all part of the process, right? Like, it's not like I just show up. I watch the fights. You'll take notes and things like that, but it's not like, okay, I'm interviewing a desk

and yeah, I'm going to sit down and write X, Y, and Z. To me, I don't feel like that works. And by the way, sometimes that's, that's, that's been me in the butt. I forget things and I get really mad at myself. And I say, I'll never live this down and, you suck and you should be writing things. and I'm just kind of really hard on myself as well. But for the most part, that's pretty much it. Like, I just always feel like you need to always be prepared, right?

You need to always be ready. You need to be watching and studying and knowing what you're talking about. And if you have that confidence, you'll be okay. You know, you mentioned The Undertaker and you had that viral moment that even if you weren't a UFC fan, you've seen that video. If you interviewing The Undertaker, Brock walks by. And it actually, I credit you for this. It ended up leading to the, you know, the WrestleMania matches.

Yeah, although many years later, I don't know why they didn't capitalize on it right away. But it was kind of cool because that happened in 2010, October of 2010. And then in 2015, they finally met at SummerSlam. And Paul Heyman asked me to do some sort of video for him for his Hayman Hustle website that he had before he came back to WWV full time. And that was cool. I was like, wow, I can't believe Paul Heyman wants me to do a video for Brock versus take her like who would have ever thought this would be a thing um so yeah no that was insane like i had no idea what was going on i was not in on it i'll never forget bill simmons tweeting about it the next day

i was blown away that this was a thing and uh definitely definitely one of the highlights of this journey so far do you think we'll see brock back in ufc um probably not i think he's at this point too old and um i'm not saying like he can't be like too old for fighting like 43 i think he is up top my head. Let's go through a training camp and all that stuff. Like he gets paid very well in the world of wrestling and certainly is treated very well. I think there's a much greater chance. Like I think that window closed a couple of years ago when he was flirting with it.

Never say never with Brock because he does a lot of things that, you know, a lot of us thought he wouldn't do. But right now I feel like there's a better chance he goes to pro wrestling or back to pro wrestling. I had Steve A on the show recently. And Steve A's like, yeah, I'd love to have that fight, but it'd be a really early night for me. And I'm like, yeah, you'd probably destroy him. Yeah, that would be like his version of Mayweather McGregor, where it'd be a fight where he would generate a lot of money and earn a lot of money.

But, you know, an easier fight for him than say, you know, Francis, you know, at this point, Brock was always raw and always relied on his wrestling and his brute strength and force. But, you know, now at 43 and with a guy like Steepet, who's got, great take down defense, but also as a great striker, I don't see him giving it, I mean, any kind of trouble whatsoever. I feel like Brock cuts much better promos in UFC than he ever did in wrestling. I 100% agree with that. I think because it's real, right?

You know, like it's all off emotion and not off a script. I think Heyman helped them greatly in the world of pro wrestling, but like when he's fired up about beating Frank Mirr, that is legit. That is real emotion. And probably his most, you know, memorable one was the one after U.S. where he talked about Kores Light and his wife and all this stuff. And I mean, like, I'll never forget him going up to the cage and going like, and he just looked like a caged animal.

It was frightening. But what a moment that was not only for him, but for the sport as well. UFC 100 and Brock Lesnar wins in that fashion. So, yeah, I agree. And it goes to show, I think what a lot of people have said for a lot of years, which is, you know, it's probably better if you let these guys go a little off the cuff as opposed to just reading off a script or trying to memorize lines. So MMA's come so far in the last 20 years.

What do you see it looking like in the next 20? Oh, my. Yeah, it has come a long way. And I think it's going to change a lot. I still think that we're in the leather helmet days. Like if we're going to equate this to football when they were wearing leather helmets in like the 30s, I still think that we're in that era of mixed martial arts. I mean, who would have thought that ESPN would be the broadcast home with the UFC?

I think a few years ago, no one thought that that would be the case. I think where it's really going to evolve is on the business side of things. You know, will there ever be a union, revenue sharing, things of that nature, and make it a little more equal in terms of what the promoters are making and what the fighters are making? I think that's a really big story to continue to follow. Like, I don't think it's going to be a thing anytime soon right now, like this year, next year. But, you know, in 20 years, a lot can change. You know, competition, you know, does Bellator rise?

does someone else come up, international MMA, all that stuff, you know, China, these are all things. And does the UFC continue to have its, you know, quote unquote, strangleholds on the sport? So from that perspective, I think a lot of that is going to evolve. And I also think you're going to start to see, you know, as time goes on, just better athletes getting into it. You know, initially it was the boxer or the jiu-jitsu guy or the karate guy, etc. now it's just people who came in as MMA fighters, you know, who just started as MMA fighters. So kids are learning MMA and they're going to start to go into MMA as opposed to

say boxing or whatever other sports. So I think that you'll see an evolution in terms of the athlete as well. But for me, the biggest thing is the business. I think the business is going to continue to change a lot over the next two decades. Well, look, I want to get you out of here on time, but thank you. Super grateful for this conversation. And your story is just fascinating. I'm sure so many people watching this or listening to this are going to be inspired themselves

to chase after whatever dream it is that they have. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Great to talk to a fellow Canadian and keep up the great work yourself. You do great work as well. And I hope that you're able to accomplish all your dreams and goals and aspirations too. And I appreciate you having me on. It's an honor.

No, well, thank you for taking the time. Cébein. That's about the extent of my French. Maybe I could order some French fries. That's about it. But thank you, Ariel. My pleasure. All the best to you.

Ariel Hawani, my friends. Hope you enjoyed this one. Snap a screenshot. Tag us both. Let us know that you're listening. It's just our names. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. He is at Ariel Hawani.

And I'm honestly not sure if I'd be doing these interviews now, if it wasn't for me seeing Ariel's interviews like nine years ago in YouTube. So even though he didn't mean to inspire me, yeah, he did. it big time. I mean, I've been doing interviews my almost my entire career, a lot of celebrity interviews interviewing musicians and actors and comedians. But when I saw him doing these interviews from these events, I thought, I could go to events. I can interview wrestlers. I can interview mixed martial artists. And man, here we are now. So I hope that you too found some inspiration from hearing his story. And I just found it so interesting when he said that we're still

in the leather helmet era of the UFC. And I guess when you think about it, I mean, a ton has changed in mixed martial arts between 2000 and 2020. But when you look at like any other sport, football, soccer, baseball, hockey, basketball, whatever, not really that much has changed between 2000 and 2020. Maybe, you know, the odd rule here or there,

but like not the vast amount of changes that have happened in the UFC. So I'm so excited to see where things are going to be 20 years from now. And again, just really, really pumped to be able to have this conversation with Ariel Hawani. And I'm so excited to see what the next 20 years of his career look like with the drive that he has. Winston Churchill once said, a pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity. An optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. be great. Be great for my friends. Have a great weekend and we'll see you next week. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary.

Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this.

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