Insight with Chris Van Vliet - How To Become A Better Storyteller With Award Winning Sports Writer Mirin Fader

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

Today's guest is Mirin Fader. Mirin is a senior staff writer for The Ringer and a New York Times bestselling author of the book Giannis: The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP. She talks about how her dreams of becoming a professional basketball player shifted to becoming a writer after an injury, how she got her start covering sports, her ability to get to the heart of the story, what her writing process looks like, how anyone can become a better storyteller and more! If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. For more information about CVV and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blan! Here we! Yo, so good to see you. Welcome back to another audio adventure on Insight. I'm Chris Van Fleet. Thanks for being with us as we once again do another deep dive into an incredible story with a fascinating person.

And, ah, this is such a good one today. If it's your first time here, take a second right now to click subscribe on the podcast player of your choosing. so you don't miss out on anything that we have coming up. And by the way, thank you for helping to make October the biggest month yet for insight in terms of downloads. And I'm guessing because you're on this ride with us that November's going to be even better than that. And then December is going to be better than November was. And then all the way into 2022.

So thank you so much for being on this with us. and I'm excited for today because Mirren Fader is such a great storyteller. She's a long-form sports writer. She's worked for Bleacher Report. She's currently a staff writer for The Ringer. She's also a New York Times best-selling author for the book, Janice, The Improbable Rise of an MBA MVP, which you can get on Amazon right now. She's just so good at telling interesting and compelling stories about people.

And the stories are about the best. people and they just so happen to play sports. And by the way, she's doing this in a mostly male dominated profession, and she is the one who's dominating here. And she's just getting started. You can find her on Twitter at Mirren Fader, M-I-R-N-F-A-N-F-E-R, and you can check out her website. It's miranfader.com.

And if you're not already following me, I'm at Chris Van Fleet, and my website is Chris VanFleet. I also just added every single podcast episode ever under podcast.com. Took me a little while to set that up, but podcast. com.com if you want to check that out. Manfred Hutsu is our fan of the week. Thank you for leaving this review that says so educational and inspiring. This is an awesome podcast. It's not only motivational and inspiring.

but also life-changing. I came across Chris Van Vlead in his Insight podcast when I was going through a really tough time balancing the effects of COVID on my parents and my family. I was mentally in a really dark place

when I came across his show. Now I'm better. I get lots of experience and inspiration and motivation. This podcast is so educational. Thank you, Chris. Well, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time

to not only listen to the show be on this journey with us, but also for leaving a review. So I read one on every single episode. So if you have a free minute today, take some time to read a review on there or write a review on there. And also, if you have left a review

and I didn't get to it for whatever reason, go in there, change a few words, maybe add your name to it, and it repopulates to the top. So take a second today to just go in and like add an emoji or something. All right. You want to talk about hard work and not taking no for an answer.

That's what this conversation is all about. And it's going to motivate the poop out of you. Yep, the poop out of you. Ladies and gentlemen, Mirren, Fader. Mirren, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for your story and how you got to where you're at right now because so much of it, mirrors mine. And I love how when you were starting off your career, you just like blindly sent

out emails like saying, can I just come work there? And most people didn't write back to you, right? Yeah, I would say way more than most. Pretty much everyone didn't write back to me, except for one, the Orange County Register proceeded to professionally stalk them for the next six months. And yeah, I just kept writing people, writing people. Literally anyone with the written word, I probably cold email. And so you're scouring the internet just looking for any email address that you can send this to? Any email. And Twitter, you know, hey, you know, finding editors, hey, I have a pitch for you. I'd love to DM. And, you know, then you get in the DM and you try to find the email. I mean, it's hard. You know, as you know, a lot of these jobs aren't posted. So you have to almost just

just like introduce yourself and offer yourself up. Like I'm willing to do anything. Yeah, well, it's two part. A lot of them aren't posted. And number two is a lot of the people who are in those positions have been in those positions for 20, 25 years. And there's just no openings. Exactly.

And sports media is even harder because there's, you know, an emphasis on TV and broadcast and radio. And that's a hard route too, as you know. But the writing part is, you know, jobs, were dwindling. And so it was, I always knew I wanted to be a feature writer. So, you know, I was going to hustle to try to get whatever opportunity I could. Yeah. And I feel like the written word in terms of like the journalism world. I think it took a big hit when the internet really took off 20-ish years ago. And then over the course of the internet really taking off, it went down to like

these short like three paragraph stories. Yeah. And that was it. Yeah. And I knew I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be a beat writer. I didn't want to be a breaking news person, which is the hard path on its own. But, you know, I just fell in love with long form writing and features. And, you know, I still believe those stories matter. So for me, even though that wasn't exactly a popular desire to have at the time to want to be a long form writer, I didn't care. I was, this is what I wanted to do.

And I was going to go after it wholeheartedly. But if we take this back, the real passion, the real dream for you was you wanted to play basketball. You were going to be a WMBA star. Yeah, I know. And, you know, I didn't get the memo that you have to be tall to do that. But I. And how tall are you? I am five, oh, even. There was Ivory Lata. There was Shannon Blavitt. There were a couple women doing it. But oh, my God, it was such a hard road. And, you know, the joke in my family was like, my mom was like, when you get to college, you're going to grow. And it never happened. So, I really did push it as far as I could.

You know, I was that girl with a ball at her hip every day in middle school, high school. You know, I was obsessed with basketball. I really, really wanted it. But it's, I don't know, it's just informed everything that's happened after in my journalism career, you know. But I feel like there's another like lesson here for people to really extract from this. And it's that like when one dream ends, that's not the end. Like another one can begin. So, like, where did you start falling in love with writing?

Yeah, you know, it's literally that demarcation, like you just said, it happened my first year of college. So I was playing for Lewis and Clark College in Oregon. And I really was just having an awful experience. And it was just like so clear to me, basketball was ending. And I took this woman writer's class there. And, you know, when the teacher, the professor was just talking about writing and reading. And I was like, wow, like, I love that too. You know, maybe I could do something with that.

just kind of like seeing one door closing and the possibility of another door, it just kind of planted the seeds. And, you know, leaving a sport is really, really painful. And I think dealing with the loss of identity and things like that over the course of, you know, that first year of college and then into the second, I really started, you know, transitioning into thinking like there's other stuff out there. But you never think of that as a child. You know, you're just 10 years old and you want to be the next Diana Tarazi. You don't think of what's next, you know, until you have to. Yeah.

So you start getting passionate about writing. And there's going to be a lot of people that are watching this, listening to this right now, who have a passion right now and they don't know where to begin. So where to begin for you? You know, I think the best advice I always have is like if you're waiting for the answer to come to you of like, what should I do with this? Like, thinking it's just going to pop up the next morning. It just doesn't.

You have to go out and do stuff and get experienced. to see if you like it or don't like it or you want to go this way or that way. I did a lot of, I applied for a lot of internships, and I didn't get most of them, but I did get one. And it was actually broadcasting one with ABC in L.A. and Urb, Burbank, I guess it was. And I really didn't like it at all. I hated it. I hated it. And that was good practice, though, because it further made me figure out, like,

what I want to do and what I don't want to do. So you have to do things to figure that. that out. And it's funny because I, nobody wanted to hire me to get experience. It's like the chicken or the egg. You know, how do you get experience to get the opportunity? If you don't have experience to get the opportunity, then how will you ever get the opportunity if nobody gets you an opportunity? It's like the chicken or the egg, right? So I had to do a lot of free work. I did obituaries, which has nothing to do with sports. Yeah. So it, you know, it was, it was experiences like that, like slowly doing, you know, doing things I wasn't interested in to find what I wanted.

And like we started with when I finally got that chance at the Orange County Register, you know, I just would pitch every Monday to them. I was a staff writer for four years. And I was not doing interesting stories. I was doing Little League. I was doing high school. I was doing junior college. I was literally doing everything that nobody else wanted to do. It was like the bottom of the bottom. But for me, it was like, okay, but I have this dream to be a teacher's writer. So even if it's not sexy subjects, I'm going to do it wholeheartedly. And that's, you know, never think an assignment is beneath you. Do you remember what your first story was at the Orange County Register? I do. I had to go to Cal State Fullerton's baseball clubhouse. And I was so

intimidated because Cal State Fullerton baseball is so good. And it's like this powerhouse that often goes to college world series. And I had to do a little feature on one of the main. guys and I think I was like shaking. So your first story was a feature then. It was a feature, but it was a little, you know, it wasn't like the stuff I'm doing now, you know, 5,000 word takeout. It was probably capped at like 600, but I remember I tried to be very flowery with the language and featurey, you know, first story out of college. It was probably, it's probably that's the first break. Orange County registers the first break. And what's the big break? What really takes it to that next level.

The big break ironically came from one of my biggest disappointments, which was getting laid off at the OC register after four years. And I became a full-time freelancer at that point for ESPN and Bleacher Report. And a couple months after that, Bleacher Report was like, do you want to go to Lithuania? We'd love for you to profile a mellow ball because he, you know, his dad just pulled him out of high school and sent him to play professionally in Lithuania. So that was my big break. I went to Lithuania for almost a month.

and it was a big story because it was very controversial what was happening with Lamello at the time. And when I came home from that, that was the career-defining story. And I got a job at Bleacher Report after that. So finally, I got the job because, you know, it felt like I wasn't going to make it. You know, I had lost my job at OC. I wasn't getting, you know, I was doing so many stories for ESPN and Bleacher, but neither would hire me for like over a year. And then finally this moment happened and it changed everything.

With everything you're saying in your story, this one line, this one quote from, I interviewed The Rock and he told me the best thing in sometimes the best things in life are the things that don't happen. And I feel like that applies so much to your story because you look at The Rock, he was, he wanted to be an NFL player. And he wasn't even good enough to make it in the CFL. And a lot of people could have gone, well, I tried. That was it.

Didn't work out. Let's move on. and I feel like your story is so similar to that where you're going, I wanted to be a basketball star, didn't work out. Look what you're doing now. Yeah, I was thinking about that exact thing recently because, you know, what if what if that never happened, right? Like, what if my basketball team did come true?

Like, none of this would happen. And I wouldn't be the person I am. I think dealing with so much disappointment made me an empathetic person and reporter, which really informs a lot of the work I, do, you know, writing these stories, these human-based stories on these athletes and all these experiences kind of led to that, you know? And when I lost my job at the OC Register, everyone around me was like, this is the best thing that will ever happen to you. And I was like, what are you talking about? This is the worst. Like, this is absolutely the worst. Like,

how am I ever going to get hired again and blah, blah, blah. And it's true. Like, the things that didn't happen really made way for things to happen. What if I never take the job? What if I never, what if that never happens? I never get sent to Lithuania. I never get staff at Bleacher. I never find myself in the house of Janus, you know, for a story for Bleacher. The book never happened. You know, it's like a series of things. So I don't think there's a preordained order. I just think life happens and you have to move with it. When you're sitting on that plane flying to Lithuania, are you like, oh my God, I can't believe someone has paid for my flight to make to like to write? Yes, but it was more like, holy shit. I'm terrified, you know, it was just like, this is my moment to prove myself and I'm so scared. You know,

I didn't have a translator and a lot was riding on this trip because, you know, like I mentioned about the job situation. I was like, I really need to prove myself. This is the biggest story of my life. Like, it's go time. I'm shaking. I'm nervous. And, you know, just just getting to Lithuania was nervous. Like, you know, I got to make my connecting flight. I forgot which country I was in for the first leg. But it was a lot of like, holy crap. like, this is happening, you know, like I haven't traveled by myself outside the country. So it was just a very exciting nerve-wracking experience. When you set out to be a sports feature writer, like that's kind of like saying like,

I want to be an astronaut because it niches down so much, right? Like, I want to be a reporter. Well, it's already tough enough to be a reporter. I want to be a print reporter. Oh, my gosh. Now it's even more difficult. I want to be a sports print reporter. Oh, geez.

I want to be a sports features writer. It's like, well, there's like, 18 of you in the world. Not quite, but you know what I mean. No, but literally, that seems high. That number of them. You know, it really was not seen as a good

idea, you know? At the register, the big thing was like covering high school football games and I literally had no interest in doing that. Like, you know, I, the thought of just like sitting there, taking my own stats, doing a game story, and I've done obviously a lot of game stories, but I just,

it didn't hit me the way features hit me. and it was my passion. And yeah, I did go after something that wasn't really popular. But at the same time, I really paid my dues and I did a lot of work that, you know, people wouldn't find exciting, like profiling a four-year-old baseball team or a junior college hockey team or, you know, just like random stuff. But it was still a feature, you know? And when you're willing to do the things that other people aren't willing to do,

you're going to start to get the results that other people aren't going to get. I hope so. I mean, I think it didn't happen that way, but it didn't seem like it was happening that way. Like, it felt like I was never going to break through, you know, being in a, you know, you know, being in L.A., it's the super competitive market. There's the Lakers, there's the Angels, there's the Dodgers, there's all this stuff going on. And I was like, wow, like, who's reading my story on this random 12-year-old volleyball player, you know? But I think, when you have a passion for something, it just drives you. You know?

The thing that I'm fascinated about with storytelling is both me and you could experience the exact same thing today. And then when we go to tell our family about it later, our friends about it later, we'll both tell it in slightly different ways. Maybe the story is still the same in the end. So for you, when you're writing a feature, where do you begin? Yeah. I mean, I love that idea that you were just talking about,

and that's why I think that profiles are fluid. Like you could write the same story 10 different ways. So there's never a right answer or wrong answer. It's just kind of like how your creativity goes. But the first thing is just reporting. Like I have to talk to so many people that are close to the person, including the person, before I even think about writing it. It's almost like two different arts combined in one.

There's the art of reporting and then the art of writing. And a lot of my stories I talk to, you know, 15 people, 30 people for the book on Janus. I talked to 221 people. So I think it's just being like super relentless in your reporting first. And, you know, the second thing is, is I like to think of writing features like movies. So I think what are my best scenes? What are my best images? What are my best anecdotes?

And it involves just a lot of thinking and organizing those moments before I even write a word. You know, I think like writing is the least part of what I do, which sounds crazy. That is true. So do you like think of about, think of it like a movie like, beginning, middle, and end? Yeah, I do. And like, have you read a story where the beginning's so good, and then it gets boring and then there's like nothing in the middle? Then you stop, right? Yeah. That's my biggest fear is that they're going to stop. You know, I mean, the middle can't be missing. And so I focus a lot on the gut of the, I call it the gut of the story, the middle.

Sometimes I even start there. Like, I'll just start the piece in the middle because I need to know what that most important part is. And like, of course you want to nail the ending, right? you got to nail the kicker, but if you don't have a middle, you have nothing. They're not even going to get to the end. So, you know, and the reason why I started looking at stories like movies is because Wright Thompson, you know, my favorite writer, my hero is, that's what he talks about all the time. And I think it just, it changed the way that I viewed storytelling. You know, we have to, we have to capture people's attention. Like, they're going to give up on us if it's not compelling in the first five lines. Yeah. It's so funny because in journalism school, they would say in

broadcasting, lead with your best video first. And then in print writing, they would say, like, put the most important stuff first, because if the story gets too long, we're going to cut off the last paragraph or two or whatever. Right. Or if you, you know, the problem is if you give, if you give all your amazing stuff first in features, then what are you saving from the end? So it's almost like this bargaining that you have to, you know, what is going to entice someone to keep reading, but not give it all the way that you don't have anything towards the end. So I just think like it's all about choices, right? Like you as a writer, you're making these intentional choices. And if you, I don't know, if you don't have something that hooks people right away,

they're giving up. And if they're giving up, it's done. So I think there's a lot of pressure with long form writing because you have to make someone like interested. You have to write something that is insightful and compelling. So, I mean, it's hard. It's really hard. And you have to get people open up to you. That, that's that, right. And like, that's such a, that's such a difficult thing because them opening up begins with them trusting you. Right. And if they don't trust you, you don't get the information, so you have nothing to write. So that's why I said, like, it's a whole art before you even get to the article, you know. And a lot of these people don't want to open. up because they're famous and they have a lot of, you know, things on the line. And so I think for me,

I try to just write human-based stories that almost like empathize with the person and, you know, listen to their stories. And, you know, I feel thankful that they do share their most vulnerable moments. And that's what I think makes a feature story successful is like, can you reveal something super vulnerable about someone that we think we know? but really show as close as you can to like what they're like as a person, not just an athlete. The other problem when you interview somebody who's famous is they've done a lot of interviews before. Right. So how do you get to, how do you get them to talk about something they've never talked about before or talk about it in a way that they've never talked about it before?

I think I don't ever really lead with sports questions. Like I think, and it like Devante Adams, when I profiled him earlier this year, it was very funny. He's like, you forgot to ask me about Aaron Rogers. And I was like, oh, whoops, you know, versus like, everyone else would, like, lead with Aaron Rogers. But I was, like, thinking of all these other personal things, you know? So I think it, they just, they know that I'm sincere in that, you know, of course I ask about sports.

There's so much sports through my sports features. But I don't, I think from right off the jump, they realize that I'm writing more. I'm trying to learn about them as a person, not just as an athlete. So, like, my Pat Beverly interview, we started with, like, tell me about your mom. tell me about your upbringing. And I think they're just like really shocked at that they're like, oh, she wants to know about me, like my family, where I come from. And I think, I don't know, that leads to it. I also think it doesn't happen quickly. Trust is not gained within the first five minutes, the first 10 minutes. So it does require a lot of time spent with somebody to really get to

know their story. Now, how much time do you want to spend with someone when you're profiling them? I know how these teams are. Like, they want to give you 10 minutes and that's it. No, they want to give you three minutes and say, good luck, lady, you know. Yeah. So I think for me, I've been on both ends of the coin. I still am on both ends. Sometimes I'm fighting for 10 minutes, but it requires hours, you know, it requires hours. And I've, you know, I've been fortunate to spend, you know, like a couple weeks with lamella wall for one story in Australia, you know, a day with Brandon Ingram for a story on him, you know, but I've also had to piece together features with like 10 minutes with, you know, Aaron Donald.

And I think, like, the features really suffer when you don't have that time. But the other thing is, and this is why I feel like long-form storytelling is valuable, you get to talk with all the people that know him. And everyone around this person has a story about him. And that's why when athletes just take to Instagram or take to social media, whatever, to say their stories, it's a one-sided thing. It doesn't have the rich layers of interviews from secondary sources that really give you a sort of 3D view of a person. And a 3D view is what people want.

What you're so good at is you're so good at writing stories that make people care about these people they might not normally care about or care about a sport they might not normally watch. And it's because you humanize these people. And I think what's so interesting is usually when we're watching a sport, especially football, they're just a jersey number and a helmet often. We don't even see their faces so often. You're able to strip that all away and strip away their fame and just get to like the root of who this person is. Thank you for saying that.

I mean, that's the goal, right? Like I think I've talked to enough mothers of these athletes to know that like no matter how much money they make when they walk in their home, they're still their son. You know, and it's like, when you see that, you're like, oh, he still has to take the trash out. You're just like, okay, who cares if he's like the best point guard in America? You know, the trash is due. And I think it just, I love that because, you know, why do we see movies? We want to see ourselves in movies.

Why do we read stories? We want to see ourselves. And like, I think it's cool when you feel a connection to somebody you root for it or see on TV when you say, wow, that person's really close to their mother. I'm close to my mother. I respect him. he seems like a really humble dude. You know, like I think we try to search for what makes athletes unicorns, you know, like, wow, like I've never seen that before, the way he does this.

But I think the universal is so much cooler than the unicorn, if that makes sense, you know, like what makes someone similar when we should have nothing in common with these people whose athleticism is uncharted, whose fame is insane. But they're just people. Like when these men talk to me about like fearing, losing money or crying after disappointing their fans or feeling like failure, I just look at them and I just think, oh my God, like I felt that before. Like I felt like a total failure. And I'll never know what it's like to walk in their shoes. But I think it's important to show the humanity and the similarities.

What's been the best advice that you've received in your career so far? It sounds really corny, but it's true. Be you on the page. I think a lot of us are taught to look at our idols and try to emulate them, which is totally true and worthwhile. But at some point, you don't want to try to be somebody else. And I think a lot of my early writing was trying to sound like people I really admired. And when I kept trying to sound like them, it took away from figuring. out what I sound like on the page. And I think like be you on the page just like really helped me

see that, you know, I have a voice too. And it's time for me to learn what that is. And you learn what that is by taking risks on the page and trying things and trying to be a little bit more voicy, a little bit more confident, even when you don't feel confident. So I think like trying to figure out what your own voice is is the best thing you can do. There's this great quote. that I love it. I don't know what I think until I write it down. I wonder how much that, you know, this is your job, right? I wonder how much that applies to what you do. No, it does because you have to like the whole, okay, basically the whole thing about writing is failure. The whole thing from start to, it, the story starts out terrible. It becomes slightly less

terrible. It becomes like somewhat not terrible. It becomes like, like passable. It becomes acceptable. becomes good. And I don't know what happens after that. I never think my stories are great. I aspire to be great, but I don't think of it like that. But my point is the whole thing is about failure. You constantly run up against yourself and you can't, you can't do it unless you do it. It's kind of like what you just said. Like the story, when people say the story writes itself, I'm like, have you ever written a story? This thing never writes itself, you know? So you have to like, You have to do it and fail and see what doesn't work. Like the structure I often pick for a story does not end up being the structure that it is,

but I can't know it doesn't work until it's on the page. So you can either run from that exercise and feel like, why would I want to do a job where I'm constantly feeling like a failure? Or you can be a psychopath like yours truly and love this process and just say like, damn, this is so hard, but I love it anyway. I'm going to get it, you know, and like, keep challenging yourself. Yeah, I mean, I think the perfect word here is process, which you just said. Yeah, it is. So if it's a process, how do you know when it's over? How do you know when like it's done? Because it's due. Like, I think I never, like, when it was funny, I told my mentor when I was

doing the book, I was like, how do you know when to just like stop reporting? He's like, well, what's your deadline? And I, oh, okay. So, okay. So, it's due. I guess that's when it's done. Because it's the same thing. Like, when somebody wins or loses a basketball game, I think, well, they just ran out of time. And one person had two more points than the other team is sometimes it's just done. And that that's what it is with deadlines, you know? Sometimes, though, like, you do get a feeling like, okay, I feel like I get it. I feel like I get what the story is about. And I can't start a story unless I know what it's about. Like when I'm profying the mellow ball, it's not a story about like, oh, here's this up-and-coming phenom who's so great and

amazing. Sure, that's true. But it's really a story about being young and famous on the internet and feeling exploited. And it's about father and son relationships. It's about, you know, not being able to live a normal life because you're constantly under the gaze of the press. Once I know that, that deeper layer of what it's about, then I feel like, okay, I'm going to stop reporting. I need to do this. Yeah. In sports, there's that old adage that you're only as good as your last game. Oh, my God.

Do you feel the same? You're only as good as your last article? No, I do. And it's very toxic. And I'm working on this because that, because I'm a former athlete, that phrase was ingrained into me from childhood. And I feel that pressure with my stories. And I, I'm learning.

I'm in the process of learning that that's not, it's just not healthy because sometimes you do an interview with somebody and maybe they're having a bad day and the interview just wasn't as fruitful and you just didn't get what you needed or access was shut down on this story and you couldn't get this or maybe you just weren't good enough that day and it just wasn't as good. But it's hard because I am a perfectionist and I am really hard on myself and I do feel that way. I'll let you know when I have an answer to that. I mean, no matter what, though, you'll always be a New York Times bestseller. I can't, I just can't process, like, you could write 17 other books that maybe don't do as well. I hope that they certainly do as well or better. But if they don't, you'll always be New York Times bestseller. I can't get, it's like, if there's a weird dissociation happening, it's like, is there another

five-foot curly head woman around writing about sports? Do I have like a twin out here doing this? because how did that happen? I don't know. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have another book or 10 or 17 in you? I would love to do 17 more books. I'm trying to figure out book number two currently. I have an idea. I'm not sure if it's the one. I sent a couple feelers to the person and his agency to see what they think. So I'm just really excited. Like I've always, you know, we talked about a lot of my storytelling. stuff, but book writing is something I wanted to do maybe even longer than that. You know,

I am a huge book nerd. I just think athletes deserve books. I can't. It's so weird to me, like how somebody could be like 26 years old and have a whole life ready to be examined. You know, they've lived like eight different lives, some of them, you know? Yeah. What book are you reading right now. What? I'm reading Anita Hill's book, which is different for me because I'm usually a fiction person, it's nonfiction. I'm almost done. It's pretty good. It's called believing. Okay. What would you say is the book that you gift to people most often or recommend to people most often? Oh, God. And I am a lover of gifting books. I've been giving out Sigrid Nunes's the friend. And it's a book about grief, but also there's, it's like an undercurrent of love for

writing in there. I feel like the past two years, obviously with the pandemic has been this like longing for connection and feeling cut off and sad. And even on your best day, you feel sad because we're just like in this time period. And this book like really was a bomb for me. And I've gifted it to so many people. So yeah, I love gifting that book. I will have, I love reading. So I'm going to have to. Yeah. Read it. Books. Who really inspires you to be better every single day? Gosh, I mean, Ray Thompson, when I look at his writing and I look at mine, I'm like, oh my God, I've so long to go. You know, he's just amazing. But in my personal life, probably my pay. My parents. I have such a close relationship with my parents. They live like 10 minutes away. I see them all

the time. They just inspire me. And, you know, they love me even if an article is good or bad or whatever. It's not about that. Same with when I was a basketball player. And the fact that they've supported me through all these changes, right? Like first dream didn't happen. They supported that dream. Second dream did happen. and they support that as well. So it's just cool that, you know, love and worthiness is like not dependent on what you do or don't achieve. So. Yeah.

Well, second dream is happening right now. It's happening. Thank God. What's the article that most people talk about with you or most people reference or years later is still getting read all the time? I think for sure, the lamella ball one that we talked about, but most recently the Gigi Bryant one. I essentially wrote like an obit feature a couple weeks after she passed.

And that was the hardest story of my entire life. I was so emotionally attached to that story. It was so painful to do. And I was so afraid of not doing a good enough job because it mattered so much. So I think that one, when people, when people mention that to me, it means a lot because, of course, the subject matter and wanting to do her story. But the lead of that story is so personal to me because it's basically me talking about what it is to be a young girl loving basketball, which goes back to like everything we were just talking about. I feel like my two worlds really collided with that piece. What I love is when you go to your website and you read your bio, there's like a comment section below.

And it's so funny how many people will find one of your articles. You love it so much that they need to know who wrote it. Then they Google you and then they find your website. And then they leave a comment on your bio going, Mirren, I love this story about intername here. And then they do a deep dive into all of your stories. I know. It really means the entire world to me, you know?

And like they write like a paragraph. I mean, it really just makes me emotional because I never thought anyone would read my work, right? Like other than my mom. Like I just, it's so nice. It's just so nice. People, you know, the internet is. like a terrible place, but it can also be really nice. Who's the person you wish you could profile that maybe we've only had one or two layers of

the onion peeled off and you really want to get in there? Oh, God. I need to profile Luca. Like, I've been pining for this profile for so long. I don't understand how he's so famous and we know nothing about him. It's kind of like the Janus effect. Like, truly, like, what do we know about him? Like, all I know is where he's from and it stops.

there. Like I don't, I don't understand that at all. So that's like a dream profile. And then the second one is Vanessa Bryant, which I've been also trying to for a very long time. I don't know, like stories, you know, you see the ones that are published, but people never see the ones you chase in your time by yourself. And I chase hundreds of stories that never happen. So for all the ones that are published, it's like a book of stories that never occur. So it's, you know, and maybe some of them you get halfway reported in and then they die for whatever reason. Not the person. The story dies. The story, the story dies, not the human. So yeah, it's a whole, it's a chase. Like I said, right, it's weird. Writing is the least part of what I do. I spend my days reporting, hoping it'll turn out.

So what makes a great story? I think that's a really good question. I think a good story. I think a good story hits. you in some way. You don't have to be emotionally affected on the verge of tears, but you need to like, I want you to feel something. Like, I want you to come away with some, like, feeling, you know? And then the next time you see that player on TV, you're like, remember this guy? You know, when he was seven, this happened. God, he seems like such a this guy. Like, I want you to feel something and remember something. That's a good story. What about someone who's not with us? anymore that you wish you could spend a day with him profile?

Tyler Skaggs. I spent so much time with his mom and fiance, and it was so hard because... That's such a sad story. It's such a sad story, and it's so hard to write about somebody who doesn't get their say. And I think that to me, that's why I wrote it. I saw basically that his life was reduced to a TMZ headline. He's so much more than Angels Pitcher. of overdose at age 20-something.

And I just wish that, like, I just wish that he was here to tell us who he really is. Yeah. That'd be a great one. But the story you did about him, just incredible. Thank you. Yeah. Why do I think really hard stories? I don't know.

I don't know. Growing up here in L.A., loving basketball. What's the most memorable sports moment for you? Oh, my God. It was the Robert O'Re III. The King's one, it kicked it out. And he goes like this. He's like, yeah.

Like, that is just like seared into my mind. I love it. Oh, God, long time Lakers fan over here. My God. It's so funny how those moments like shape our lives. I grew up in Toronto. Mine is Joe Carter hitting the World Series winning home run in 1993. Amazing.

And you never forget it. Of course. And then you're like, well, one day when I grew up, maybe I could do that. It's just insane. Like, I remember watching it and like you saw how I just did the movement. I feel like I copied him in that moment. And I was like trying to do it. Oh, I love it.

How embarrassing. But yes, so good. Clearly an impact. Clearly. Look, I have loved this conversation. I think there's so much here that no matter what your passion is in life, there's the ability to get there. And I think that it's so important. You mentioned this earlier. Just take that first step. Just like, just chase, chase that dream. Take that first step of that 10,000 mile journey. Right. Why can't it be you? Like, I think about this all the time when I go to bookstores and I would do this. I would see so many books. And

younger me would be like, well, I can't be on that shelf. There's so many books. And then I got older and I realized, no, there's so many books. Why can't that be you? You could be one of them. I say this all the time with podcasting. I say, you know, anyone can have a podcast. Anyone can write a book. Literally. Literally. You can. That's the best part about it and also the worst part about it. I know. It's like democratizing, but is the quality there. But still, you know, like it's who was to say a five foot woman's, failed basketball dream would end up writing, you know, a book on an NBA MVP. Like, nobody would ever say. Best-selling books, sorry.

Thank you. Nobody would ever think that. I wouldn't think that. My family wouldn't think that. Nobody would ever think that. It just goes to show like your life can turn around, you know? When I was depressed about basketball and not making it, I never thought that I could ever be happy about something after that.

And then it turned out, I love writing way more than that. basketball and I'm so happy that things didn't work out so they could work out in a new way. So, yeah, I agree. And this is just the beginning too. Like you've got another, I don't know, 40 years in your career. Well, you put the 17 books on my shoulder. So I think I've got to make it happen. Yeah, I got to make it happen somehow.

I end every conversation with the same question because I start and end every day with gratitude. I say out loud three things that I'm grateful for. So what are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? Wow, I love that so much. I'm grateful for my family. They are always supporting me. I'm grateful for my hands.

You know, I, too, am a gratitude person. I always think, well, what if I just injured my hand? I could never write again. I'm very grateful for my hands that they work. My body works. You know, I'm a healthy individual. I get to write. and I have these working hands.

The third thing I'm grateful for is food. I'm a big baker. I'm a big cook, home cook. And when I go to the grocery store, I think, like, wow, how superfluous. You're just getting extra flour to make this thing. But, like, think about all the people that don't have money to get basic vegetables. Like, you're so lucky. Like, you're just, you're so lucky.

You know, you have plentiful food. So I'm grateful for those things. I love it. I'll add one more. I feel like you should be so grateful for the things that didn't happen. Yes, I am. Now that I feel emotionally healed from them, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Mirren, thank you so much. This has been such an enjoyable conversation. I don't know why we didn't do this in person, but we should next time. I know. We should because there's lots of coffee shops full of writer, podcaster types, and there's friends we've got to meet. So thank you so much.

There you go, my friends. Thank you to Miran for joining us and for sharing her story. I hope that it inspired you to take some action in your life, to take that first step in your life. Give her a follow on Twitter at Mirren Fader. Check out some of her great articles at miranfader.com, and you can buy her book, Janus, The Improbable Rise of an MBA MVP on Amazon.

And you can follow me at chris fanfleet.com. And I'll leave you with the quote that I mentioned during this interview. It's from Joan Didion, D-I-D-D-I-O-N, who said, I don't know what I think until I write it down. Be great. Be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Jim Rome takes on sports.

Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid-fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand.

He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it, but get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What should be? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.