Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Jim Johnston: The man behind WWE's legendary theme songs, why he's not in the Hall of Fame, thoughts on AEW

Episode Date: April 27, 2021

Jim Johnston is a music composer who worked as the music producer for WWE from 1985 - 2017. He is the man responsible for the legendary theme songs for Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, Degeneration X, The Undertaker, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon, Randy Orton, and countless others. During the course of his 32-year career with WWE, he composed more than 10,000 pieces of music before he was released in 2017. Jim joins Chris Van Vliet from his studio in Greenwich, CT where he talks about how he started working for WWE, his process behind creating music, some of his favorite themes, why he doesn't think he will be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame and he ends the interview with a beautiful piano rendition of The Undertaker's theme song. This is truly one of my favorite conversations ever!If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to https://chrisvanvliet.com   Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go, go. It's nonstop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family. Expect you to be on 24-7? Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold-loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies.

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And thank you for joining us for what is one of my favorite conversations ever with the goat himself, Jim Johnston. If it's your first time here, make sure to click subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to this so you don't miss out on what we have coming up. Jim Johnston is the man behind literally every legendary wrestling theme. Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, The Rock, Mick Foley, Degeneration X, The Undertaker, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon, Randy Orton. And the list goes on and on and on and on. during the course of his 32-year career with WWE, he composed more than 10,000 pieces of music. And then for some reason, in 2017,

they decided to let him go. And I think that you'll agree with me that if anyone deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame, it's Mr. Jim Johnston. And I just loved digging into the process of how he makes a theme and just how his mind works. Also, through this conversation, I learned that Jim Johnston is available for hire if you're a wrestler or really just anybody looking for music to be composed.

Jim Johnston.com is where you can find out more about him. Take a screenshot. Let us tell that you're listening. Jim doesn't have social media, so just tag me. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Newey Packer in Australia left this review on Apple Podcast that says, CVV. Always enjoy listening to Chris's podcasts. Guy is definitely one of the best interviewers going, and I just all around love his work. Also, as a wrestling fan himself, he does a great job of getting the most out of his interviewees with his questions. Well, I appreciate the kind words. Thank you. Also a big thank you to Bobby Sudam, who out of nowhere, like an RKO, sent me a little

something on Venmo. I have never asked, for money ever on Venmo or PayPal. So this was very unexpected, but very appreciated. So in the theme of this, theme, ha, is what I did there? If you would like to do the same as Bobby Sudam, my name on Venmo is Chris Van Vleet and the number one. Chris Van Vleet won. So thank you again, Bobby. Super appreciate you. My guest today is truly the greatest of all time. welcome the one and only Jim Johnston it is such an honor to be sitting down with the legend himself Jim Johnston welcome to the show thank you very much for having you I think that your story is so fascinating I'm so excited to dive into this because your music was the soundtrack to my youth

and it's it's touched so many people but I'm curious as we start things off when did music first touch your life? Oh, early on, my grandmother was always singing my family's from nowhere, from Pocahontas, Arkansas. And she actually got a scholarship to go to Juilliard to study opera. But, you know, that just was not in the car. And she was not leaving her husband in Pocahontas, Arkansas to go study at Juilliard. but she played the organ and sang every single week of her life in church. And she would always sing and play piano when we'd go on vacation to visit them in the summers.

My dad had an organ, you know, a crappy Hammond organ at home that he'd mess around on. But he also, my parents listened to a lot of different kinds of music. I just always noticed music. I didn't, it's not something I can say I noticed in such a tangible fashion that like, it was like, oh my God, I've got to find some music to listen to. It's just, I always noticed it. I would hear it in other rooms. And then there was this pivotal moment.

My parents had taken my brother and sister and I to some kind of amusement park or, it was a big thing. Maybe it was a World's Fair. I don't know what the hell it was, but it was some major league event. So we're walking around and it's all the rides and booths and all these different events.

And I hear music playing. And we round this corner and I'm like dragging my entire family who's not interested in pursuing this. And I round the turn and there up on this stage is this band. Four guys, kind of very Beatles-esque,

bright red sequent suit matching suits just playing away and I was like if there are if there are music drugs I had 48 needles hanging out of my arms at that point is like I was in that's all I needed here it's like I'm doing that which is interesting because it's pretty well documented I've horrible stage fright. I can barely play my wife a new song without hemming and hawing. So I never became a performer, nor did I really want to. But just I wanted that feeling that that, you know, just, Chris, I could have stayed there for as long as they could have played.

and just, you know, I mean, everyone has moments when they are truly moved by music. Where, you know, it can just, it can take you from, you know, whatever mood you're into, it's like tears are coming out of your eyes. Yeah. Like that, in a heartbeat. And that's what that moment did for me. So from then on, you know, I begged my father to buy me a guitar. he wouldn't because he didn't trust it. I'd stick with it because I didn't stick with piano

lessons when I was a little kid. Um, so he rented one for a year and I had to prove myself. Rented the guitar for a year. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, he was depression era got. You know, you don't go down to the music store and buy guitars. You got to earn it. Now you can play pretty much any instrument. So I'm curious, which is your instrument that's like an extension. of your own body, you can play it so easily, and which one came really difficult for you? Well, I do all my compose, or 95% of my composing on either guitar or piano, so it's kind of an equal shot between those. Piano's much better for like anything that's going to be orchestrated, because as you play, it's at least for me,

it's easier to hear, imagine like, oh, this thing, you know, that's going to be the clarinet. You know, when you do it on guitar, for some reason, just a guitar is more a guitar. So it's going to accompany what you're seeing. So for songs and guitars is. the right direction. What's hard, well, what's hard are all the stringed instruments. They're so hard, in fact, that I don't play them. They are successfully really hard. I don't know. You know,

to get any sort of competence level on a violin or a cello is that that's got to be the thing you do. Actually, I just read it. I know before we started this interview, I was telling you about this new little book that Sting put on an audible exclusive that everyone should read because it's really just an interesting looking through the doorway of his life. I just read a short thing by Yo-Yo Ma, which was hearing his story was such an inspiration to me about, I mean, he really was a prodigy guy. You know, he was better than anybody when he was five or something, you know. But I don't know, you know, I get such, I don't know, I get such a reward from reading stories like that and their experiences.

And anytime I read a story from someone like that, I'm not too big into the whole world of even. egos. But anytime I go like, oh, I felt that, I feel like, oh, God was home. You know, that guy was hungry at lunchtime one time. So we really share a lot and common. So did you determine at a young age that music was going to be part of your life and you were going to find some sort of way to do this for a living? I wanted to, Chris, but and this makes my father.

sounded like he was really strict. He wasn't really a strict guy. It was just, I think, kind of the overall vibe was, you know, and it still is. If you wanted to go into music as a living, that's a long shot. And you're really playing the long odds on that one. So, because you need a bunch of things to come together, starting with you have to have some innate skill. And if you don't have a lot of skill, then you have to be a combination of a tremendous performer and real PR skills about how to promote yourself above the fact that you're not particularly a good musician. And some people absolutely pull that off because they kind of become a spectacle.

you know, and they surround themselves with other people who really kind of carry the load of the music. So, you know, I always did art, what they call the plastic arts, meaning physical art, either painting or, and I was kind of headed to a life of being an architect and graphic designer. and gone as far as having been accepted at Harvard's architectural school. And right before I was going to go, I told my dad I can't go. I have to try this music thing. And then where did that happen? He was really disappointed. So you're accepted at Harvard, which is a feat in itself.

and then you decide to not go there. So then where did the path take you? What specifically did you do in music? Oh, it was the typical thing. I was working, supporting myself as a carpenter and, you know, falling into the forever trap of, you know, I'll do this during the day and then I'll work on my music at night. So, but of course, by the time six o'clock rolls around,

you just want to go out with your friends. have a beer and then fall asleep because you're so freaking tired from the day that you're done. You're not taking on a second occupation here. And something like music, it's not even a nine to five job if you want to succeed. It's a, you know, kind of a 16 hour a day job if you really want to accomplish something. So obviously people know you for your time working at WWE, but what were you doing before WWE hired you? I was sort of coming up the ranks.

I was doing a lot of work for HBO and MTV and Showtime and scoring some stuff and doing all sorts of interstitial stuff and, you know, anything I can get my hands on basically and just trying to work my way in and my favorite food, which was a rarity then, at least in my neck of the woods in Connecticut, was sushi. And there was only one place in town that had it. And the sushi bar was, it was really was a Japanese restaurant. And then the guy started a little sushi bar with like four seats and then, you know, became incredibly popular. And then it expanded to maybe eight seats. But it was still such a niche item that it was like going to your local bar. You know, you see the same people there every time you meet it. And so one night I saw this guy that

seen a lot of times and he said, can you say you write music or something like that? And then he explained that he worked for WWE and he was the art director for them and he had been asked could put together a video for a NAPI, which is a cable TV convention. And he said I could stumble through and put together a video, but I have no clue how to put music to it. You know, if you want to give it a try, so I did. Through that, I met Vince. Vince and I, inexplicably hit it off tremendously well. And, and this is early on when there really wasn't inference music. Don't, not there really wasn't, there wasn't entrance music. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite stories is Vince's father when Vince bought the company from his dad.

And he wanted to put music in and his father told him, if you put music to this program, you will completely kill this business. And so big miss by dad there. So Vince and I just sort of kept developing the idea of, you know, developing the idea of, you know, first it was really show themes. And then a couple of guys had a theme. And, you know, it's just a truly organic process. It was not a big plan. It was never like, okay, you know, right now we've got.

two themes, but by, you know, four years from now, I want to make sure that 27% of the wrestlers have themes. You know, it was, these two guys had themes because of happenstance, and then it's like, well, I guess it's working. Let's give this other guys. Then for a long time, it was only baby faces got themes, heels, never got themes, because, you know, you had to make sure. And that's something I, I, I, I, I, sort of pushed back on, you don't push back too much on Vince on stuff, but, and said, why, you know, heel should have good music. And if the heel ever had music, it wasn't music. It was like, you know, toilet flushes or something that's clearly stated how you're supposed to

feel about this guy. And so finally, that tide finally turned as well too, where, you know, keel's got good music, good themes, you know, because they're no different in the baby faces. You just love to hate them as opposed to love to love them. What was the very first entrance theme that you wrote? I haven't got the slightest idea. Or do you remember one of your first pieces of work? It was a theme for, I. I think it was the theme for WrestleMania 1.

I think it was the first thing, it was a big saxophone theme. And the first time, it was such a rush for me, the first time I heard my music playing in an arena. Yeah. You know, and people responding to it. So that was the closest I'm going to get to

what people talk about when they do concerts and they get that connection with the audience and that rush of that feeling. But up until you started working for WWE, you're scoring TV shows and other things like that, what are your composer friends thinking when you tell them, I'm going to go work for this wrestling company called WWF? Well, I didn't have any composer friends,

so that part is easy. But the friends I did have, I think the way, ones that were, you know, close enough to know what I was doing and to really care what I was feeling about my life were just happy I was working, you know, and that I was seen to be taking the next step. And in the early, not the early years for the first, I don't know, 15 years, maybe longer, I'm horrible with time. Vince and I were just a, it was just a handshake agreement. I wasn't an employee. And it wasn't like he didn't want me to be an employee or I didn't

want to be an employee. It's just we were fine with the way things were. It wasn't until he took the company public. And when that happens, then, you know, here we go, bring on the lawyers. And so they come in and they do all sorts of risk assessments. And they were like, oh my God, you know, you're telling me this, just all your music, you don't have them under contract, you can just walk out and go work for the NFL tomorrow afternoon. You know, that would not be a good thing. So then we had to have contracts. So I became an employee. I imagine, you know, as someone- I'm just sorry, one other thing I would say there. I think Vince and I would have worked until my last day on the job where the handsake would have been perfectly happy with it. Wow. Yeah, which is, you can't say a lot, that a lot, this day in age.

I imagine growing up loving music and then getting into being a composer. John Williams has to be someone that you look up to. He's a world. part. He's just a different category. You know, Hans Zimmer is clearly a brilliant guy, incredibly prolific. I love that he's very brave and loves to take chances. And I admire his desire to collaborate with and learn from other people. But John Williams is just the way he orchestrates. Nobody, it's like nobody has figured out how to do work with an orchestra the way he has and the way he does.

And there's this group of people mainly in Hollywood who are really the top-notch people at scoring movies. and they're great. Randy Newman is one of my favorites. I love the way he writes, but more than anything, I love the way he orchestrates. And one thing for anyone who's into that kind of stuff, you should check out,

because I always like to look at, you know, what are stylistic elements of people? And Randy Newman's orchestrating is just like James Taylor's guitar playing. they always have hammer on hammer on hammer off thing so james taylor is always i love that he has a guitar yes i james taylor is always doing uh you know that it's a hammer on yeah yeah and uh randy newman is always doing that same kind of hammer on, hammer off dynamic, but with violins and orchestras. And it's always struck me as it's so similar.

But I was lucky enough through a friend to be in the studio, not that he knew it, with Randy, when he was both working on and literally conducting the orchestra for the movie for a Robert Redfurt's movie The Nassel. Wow. And it was, I mean, it was embarrassing because I'm sort of hiding in the corner. I don't know anybody there. And I spend most of the day trying not to burst into tears because it was just,

because I was saying, like, oh my God, they're going to shut down the session and the session costs like $8 million a minute with this movie, players in the room. Oh my God, this guy is having a nervous breakdown over here in the corner. What's the problem? But it was so staggeringly beautiful what the orchestra was playing and Randy's music. And then I was in the control room just sitting around and this guy walks in and boom. Covered Redford.

And it was just like as plain as day. He saw me. He walked over. He goes, hi, Bob Redford. I'm like, oh yeah, right. Welcome. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. You know, in some way, your music has touched a lot of people in that same type of way.

I know, but it's so strange because it's so hard to process. And I'm so humbled by it, but almost embarrassed by it. You know, it's actually an interesting dynamic when someone, particularly when happens in person and someone is you know really gushing about how much you've meant to them or something you've done has meant to them yeah and you know you want to honor that and be completely respectful but at the same time you there's this other part you want to say like hey I'm going to cook. You know, I'm glad you like this stuff, but

because I think all composers, when you're doing what you do, you're just doing what you do. You're from that, you're, you know, I'm not sitting around the studio going, oh, got you. And that's really, oh, geez.

Oh, that's really, you know, that's, that's going to kill people right there. You know, I think you're no different than the fireman who's, he puts out fires. That's what his job is. My job is to sit here in the studio and compose music. Well, the thing is, you might look at it that way. But from the outside looking in, when we're listening to your work, you are the greatest to ever do this in the wrestling business.

Yeah, well, you know, and now I'm trying to break out of that business. And, you know, it's so interesting because I never, I never was a wrestling fan. And, you know, as I said, I got in the door there, absolute, complete happenstance. You know, it wasn't like I was sending takes to Vince saying, you've got to listen to my stuff, man, you know, because I've got this great idea. We'll do entrance themes for these guys. you know so but it just it just steam rolled so quickly and Vince was obviously he wanted to take the business over from his dad for a long time or I'm assuming that that he wanted to do that

for a long time finally did and once he had control he just wanted to completely change the Lansden, which he did. Yeah. Where does the process begin? When Vince or someone in WWE says we've got this new person that's coming in, we need a theme for them. Where does the process begin? I

never really got a whole lot of information, Chris. It was, you know, if I it was if I could see any video, that helped tremendously because a lot of it,

where I start generally is I want to know a basic tempo, a vibe. So, you know, in the extreme, if it's a giant guy, it's going to be a slower, big, heavy, slow, lumbering theme that tempo that reflects.

He's a big guy. So if you run fast, I would start doing that now. And other guys are smaller and they're wiry and, you know, so they're, they're, you want to reflect that wiriness and that nervousness and that, that energy. So you start there and then I just try to find something that resonates. So it really is, it's as elusive as I just sit down and start playing stuff and then suddenly, you know, it's such an odd process, but suddenly something will go, I'll just know, like, that's it.

That's, that's, that's it. I mean, you hear about writers getting writers block. Does that ever happen to you in the music world? Never. Never. Never. Not a moment in my life that I have writer's block. It's my, I, I, you know, and this sounds like, oh, for you. But, but, you know, everything.

even the best stuff can be in extremes where it's not helping you out a lot. And I have been so graced to never have writer's block. But the other side of that is I can't pick up a guitar or sit down at the piano or pick up a bass guitar without getting an idea.

They just come. So I've got this backlog. I keep all these ideas on my phone. And before that, it was on those little handhelds. Like a Palm Pilot or something? Reporters used to. Oh, okay. You're like what and when they said best you said what?

And so I just erased it the other day. So I'm already up to 73 ideas now. And I have these files and memos, and each folder, I take them off the phone and archive them. Each folder must have, you know, it'll get to about 200 or 300 when I'll finally just say, I've got to get these off the phone so that I don't, so the phone doesn't break, they'll get stolen and they're gone. But I've got hundreds, hundreds of folders of these things. that I'd love to go back and go through.

I mean, obviously, you know, out of 70 things, I figure if I had the time, you know, which are worth pursuing to do a full recording, I don't know, 15, you know, well, I don't know what the odds are. But I don't have that kind of time. And so it also produces another thing that's not particularly valuable for me, which is distraction is I'll be working on one thing while I'm working on that. I get a cool idea and I want to stop what I'm working on and now go work on the new cool

idea because it's fresh and it's current and that's exciting versus the less than exciting discipline aspects of sticking with it and finishing the composition. And my time at WWE was a blessing in that regard because the pace was such and the schedules were so demanding that I didn't have time to get distracted. Sure. You know, it's just keep shoving the forward. What was the quickest turnaround that you ever had for a theme? Oh, my God.

We just signed this guy. He's debuting tonight on Raw, Jim. Oh, that happened all the time. Oh, my God. That was not rare in the least. But I, you know, I don't know, an hour and a half or something. Whose theme did you write in an hour? I have no idea, but I know that, you know, there were definitely times when I get a call from wherever they were shooting TV.

And it's like, you know, we need something for this guy. You know, he's, you know, whatever. The writers just decided they were in a tag team, but they're going to split him off. It's going to be a solo. Vieti some music. You know, give me anything. And, you know, it's easy for them to say, give me anything. But I felt a great responsibility, like part of these guys' careers and successes were in my hands.

You know, I think the music now in WW and in AEW, I think it's Sorry, this is me I think it's all really homogenous and really mediocre and doesn't have anything to do with the characters and I think that's why there are less big stars

I don't think that there are no potential big stars in the rosters hiding there. I mean before Steve Austin was Steve Austin he was the ringmaster. And there are lots of stories like that is that these people need the right storyline, the right costuming, and definitely the right music to lift them up. Because

particularly the music that's serving multiple masters in a way, it's entertainment for the audience. it's a big boot in the ass for the wrestler before they go out and to sort of get them in the headspace of their character and to kind of get them jacked up to do a great performance and if you're in that situation I can't imagine being in that situation where you know you're not really sure your character the storyline is sort of, you know, I'm supposed to hate this guy, but why do I hate?

I don't even know why I'm supposed to hate it. And, you know, your music is just kind of generic wrestler guy music. Right. And you're supposed to go out there and be on top of the world and charm everybody else. I think that's a big ass. Well, your music ends up. playing into who that character is and can often define what their gimmick becomes. I just had Chris Masters on the show recently.

I can't imagine Chris Masters without that entrance theme, which then became his entrance, which then became a part of who he was. Well, but it's, it's, I always saw WWE as a live movie, you know, and I always felt that I'm from scoring the characters to the movies. their theme has to be just like the theme to Jaws or Darth Vader or any other Dr. Chavago, you know, Air Force One, you know, you have to hear it and think like, yeah, okay, here come Steve Austin. You don't need to know anything else. You don't need to know the storyline.

don't need to know who he's resting tonight. Don't know, you don't need to know, you know, what happened last week or what might happen in the next week. All you need to know is Steve Austin's coming out. It's like, boom, I'm good to go. I'm in. Right. And you're instantly in that defiant,

go screw yourself, frame of mind. And you take that out of the wrestling, business and I think that's it's an enormous component and so the audience that you're it's like you're putting too much responsibility on the audience to the United States Soccer Federation present the US Soccer podcast my name is David Goss and I'm joined by my co-host Megan Clevenberg and now we're giving people an inside look at the World Cup times ticking I think you can feel the intensity all the guys are wanting to really take their claimant and they want to be on that World Cup roster. There's no doubt about it.

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You know, you mentioned AEW, and when they started, you were no longer employed by WWE. Did they ever reach out to you to have you there? No, and it is always just from a business angle, it always amazed me. Because if I was in the boardroom or whatever, I'd say like, Vince just fired you. This is the way we can really stick it to all. Find that guy, get him in here this afternoon, you know. Well, think of how many other people they brought over from WWE, Jim Ross, Justin,

Roberts and, of course, all kinds of other, you know, in-ring performers. Yeah, it's amazing. It's, I don't know, you know, it doesn't make sense to me. But, hey, I think the thing that was so great about your legendary themes throughout your career is within one or two beats, boom, we knew exactly who was coming out. And this is something that WCW never figured out, TNA never figured out. And unfortunately, AEW really doesn't have that either. No, they don't. And the biggest surprise to me was all my time at WWE, music was really important to Vince.

I mean, he clearly got the importance of it. And so something changed. So, I mean, either the business has just gotten so big or I don't know, maybe he. He's a little bit older and just not, doesn't want to be so engaged on a micro-management level and it's leaving those decisions other people. But it seems like such an obvious thing in both WWV and AEW, well, you know, things aren't going perfect in here. and our ratings certainly are not what they once were, what can we do to give this baby a shot in the arm? You know, that someone doesn't raise their hand and say like,

everyone thinks the music's up. Maybe we could get better music. I don't know. But it's a, I mean, you know, you're in Hollywood. It's the whole entertainment world. there's a lot of egos floating around. And many, many decisions are not based on logic, but they are based on love or lust or hatred or resentment or, you know,

yes, he's the right guy for the job, but we're not hiring them. Yeah. You know, it's crazy. But, hey, that's the world in which we live. But with the amazing relationship that you had with Vince McMahon, you know, dating back to the 80s, did you ever think that you would get fired one day? Not really, but in the last couple of years, I certainly did because there was a guy there who was trying to get me fired.

I'm trying to get me thrown out and get his people in the door. and so you know fine that's that's the way the game is played but that's but it's not the way i do so so i mean i may be speaking completely out of turn here but you're available for hire you're doing all kinds of other work if a wrestler who wasn't signed to a major company were to reach out to you is that someone would you be able to make music for someone like that i did actually for people oh my god

don't feel PCO yeah PCO thank you that's so mean to mean not to remember his name

he reached out out of the blue somehow got to me and he was so kind and gracious and said like you know

this is I'm taking an absolute flyer here would you even consider writing a theme for me And this was shortly after I'd gotten out of, well, not that shortly.

You know, but six, nine months, a year. And I said, sure. Well, you know, why not? What the hell? I'm not doing that much else. You know, what the hell? And it'd be fun. You know, it's also when you do something for so many years, human beings are very habitual, you know,

And if you get in the habit of stuff, it doesn't just go away overnight. Sure. And so while I get a million ideas, song ideas, orchestral ideas, still to this day, I'll be messing around on something and I'll go like, boy, that'd be a great theme, I do. You know, I mean, you just pick up a guitar. you're messing around and you know, it's like, oh, okay.

You just wrote my entrance theme, thank you. You know, that would be a great thing. And that's really how it happens most of the time. And so, yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess there are contractual problems, but it's also been a little surprising that some of the wrestlers haven't gotten in touch who are signed to AEW or WWWE and say like,

hey, I don't care, write it under an alias, but I've got to get good music. I don't know. I know in the times before I left that there was a lot of control issues going on where I heard through the grapevine there were a lot of wrestlers who just hated the music they were being given, but they were also not being given any latitude to do something different.

What I think is interesting is Shinski Nakamura's theme, you know, became a fan favorite. The crowd was singing along. But that wasn't originally going to be his theme. It was going to be Bobby Rude, that glorious theme was going to be given to Shinsky Nakamura. And after speaking with you here, it seems crazy that they just had a theme. They go, this is a great theme.

we've got to find the right person for it. Where you're doing the opposite, you're finding the person and then making music to fit that person. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to sit around here and compose music and then say like, oh, this is a great piece of music.

I just need to find the right film for it. You know? No. It's like someone makes a film. and then you write music to it. Yeah. It's backwards. And that's a great point.

You bring up is probably one of the problems for sure. It's obviously going to be very difficult, like choosing your favorite child, but what do you think is your masterpiece? Oh, I, Chris, I have no idea. When I think about it, well, I don't really think about it. But like if I'm going through old stuff looking for something and I come across, themes and I go like, oh, that, you know, I really like that. And I have this, well, evidently, quite a few composers have this. Once you compose something and it's done, it sort of leads

you and it's out there. And so there isn't, I guess there's a pride of ownership, but there isn't a, at least for me, there's not a like, Wow, geez, I was having a good day when I wrote that one. You know, that's just great. It's much more like you're just hearing a piece of music on the radio that it's like, oh, that's one of my favorite song. I love that song. And I feel that with absolutely no ownership whatsoever, it's just like, oh, you know, it's like absolutely like someone else wrote it. But I love listening to it.

But it changes all the time. I mean, it just changes all the time. I mean, from a, from a, what I get, what I read and what I get asked, certainly, Undertaker seems to be up there. But I think that's mainly because of Undertaker. I mean, he's had, I think, arguably the most incredible career in the business. you know, lengths and popularity. I mean, the guy's at least semi-retired now at this point.

And he's essentially as popular as he's ever been. Yeah. And if Vince brought him to the show or WrestleMania or any other pay-per-view, he'd be the top card probably. He'd probably be the most popular guy in the show. I mean, maybe except for Austin or the Rock. I think a lot of people would point to your DX, theme, like that Degeneration X theme was so good. It was so good. I was like 15 or 16 when it first

came out. I thought it was rage against the machine. Oh, it's a funk song. It's so strange. It sort of comes off as a rock song, but to me, it's a, it's completely a funk song. Huh. Like, like right out of, I don't know, it's sort of like rage doing their version. of a Motown to something because it's it's it's got this funk you know it's it's not it's not a rock beat a rock version of it would be you know be much more straightforward chunk but dx is the much, it's bouncing. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a punk song. I mean, I, I, I'd love to do a version with like cool in the gang.

And it be, I think if I did, it would make so much more sense as a song. That'd be a great. Chris Warren's was, Chris Warren was just great. God rest of the soul. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Cool and the Gang being a cool collaboration, but think of all the incredible collaborations that you've done throughout your career. Which are the ones that really, like, really impressed you? Well, I guess the ones with Motorhead were really exciting. God rest his soul, too. Yeah, no kidding. Lemmy. And I think that was a good lesson in. don't ever prejudge because, you know, Lemmy has a pretty formidable reputation of being a pretty wild guy and certainly a well-known drinking problem.

But then to finally meet him and being in the studio with him, he just could not have been more of a gentleman. and a really interesting guy to talk with. You know, it's, I don't know, things are never what you think. Yeah. I want to ask you about one of my favorite themes, which was. Oh, great. I love this. Billy Guns' ass man song.

Oh, my ass man. Where did you get the idea for this? I well, I mean, from him, because he already was the ass man, who was already wearing the bathing suit. He was Mr. Ass. Yeah, Mr. Ass would, you know, ass across his ass. And this tells me to this day, and I don't think most people get it is just the incredible double entendre pun of that song. I just, it still makes me laugh. The lyrics are incredible.

I love to love it. I mean, like a cat man, and it comes off like, you know, kind of a sexual thing, you know. And yet his character was kind of a little bit of a buffoon in a way. And sorry, no offense to him. And I don't know if that was on purpose or just the way he played it. but I just loved that like, you know, put a comic in I'm an ass man

you know and that he's the one ostensibly singing this about himself I'm an ass man you know and thinking he's putting himself over it's just but that kind of stuff

that was the best of WWE when they have fun with themselves. And now everything's so serious. Everybody hates each other and everyone's, you know, I'm going to get my hands on that. You know, Austin and Rock and all the, you know, the top guys in the best moments generally were fun.

It was more, you know, dry humor, sarcasm. when it gets, I don't know, it just goes to places that aren't very much fun. Yeah. I think one of your most underrated themes of all time is The Brood or Gangrel's theme. Oh, yeah. And I mean, that theme is so, so good. I'm curious to know where you got the idea to figure out that line, play it reverse for the start of the song. I am dead, I am buried.

I totally forgotten what the actual line was. I think that's... That probably was one of the producers there, really creative guy named Chris Chambers. I worked with him on that. And I think that was his idea. And to put a line up front, and then I was...

Did all the reversing and slowing it down. I figured, hey, it's got to be ghostly and devilish. but I remember doing that I couldn't that that kind of wah-wa guitar part I had like three different Wawa pedals and I just could not get the sound I was

wanting and all a wah-wap pedal does is it's a tone control in a pedal and basically the mid-range frequencies of something and it's sweeping that

So as it sweeps, it makes them, wow, wow, want that. But I couldn't get enough of it. And it sounded cheesy. So I put, I recorded the guitar straight ahead. And then I was on the, this was probably way from technical for 99. No, I'm a guitar player myself, by the way. I probably should have led with this. I ran it through two different channels of the console, like through one and then out

and then into another one. So I could use two EQs at the same time. And I balanced the bands right to the frequency I wanted. And then I played it back and recorded live, working the console, wah, wah, and I could turn the controls and perfect rhythm to the song. And I got a much thicker, a much more extreme kind of wah sound that I think really helped.

Oh, it's such a... a good theme. Are we those guys? You know, and the interesting thing, Chris, when I would look into doing something, you know, and the theme would turn out well, it's,

then it was a perfect deal. When the wrestlers had the talent and gifts to play into that, I always looked at it like a dance. You can have a great theme, but if the guy can't dance to it, then you're kind of

in the water. And Gangrel and Root really danced to that. I mean, they sold this sort of Nouveau, cool vampire thing that, like, it's cool to be a vampire. And they just seemed, again, but same deal. You had fun because it seemed like they were having fun with it. Yes. They came up, they rose out of the ground, they were almost always smiling. They were.

Funny how that works. What was the last theme that you wrote before being released by WWA? I think, well, I wrote quite a few things, but they weren't being used because I was being sort of politically squashed. But it was end of days. Baron Corbyn? Barron Corbyn's theme, yeah. which was very apropos because if you look at the lyrics, I forgot if I said this earlier,

or if it was before we were talking before we went on air here, there's always something personal to the themes. And a lot of times it's very personal. and Baron Corbyn's was definitely was end of days is you know it's purely if you look at the lyrics it's you know it sounds like an epic end of days I'm bringing end of days on you but it's autobiographical and I'm and I don't realize this until look I look back on it's like oh my God you know it's almost embarrassing and so personal I'm talking about I know the end's coming. You know, this is, this is, wow. I'm bowing out. You know, the big goodbye is right on the horizon and it was my end of days at the WWE.

And if you, and, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there and anger and disappointment. And, but that happened a lot, you know, Vince's theme. Vince, I wrote Vincent's theme, no chance in hell when I was really angry with him. I just seen him had his worst, bullish, bullish self. So it was just a literal telling what I saw. is like, you know, you have no chance against this guy because he'll just keep coming at me. You know, so you're screwed. Wow.

Because he doesn't, he doesn't play by the rules you play by. Yeah. So you have no chance. There's a little Jim Johnston in every single theme. There is. And I'm, you know, it's, it's so strange that that dynamic of you write something and then you don't realize the later that. I mean, at the time, you feel like, oh, okay. So I got to crank out this theme.

Okay, whatever. No chance of now. All right. No chance. Yeah. Oh, I've got. And you look back at it later. It's like, oh, my God.

That's spooky. And it happened a million times, by the way. How many different themes can we hear your voice on? Oh, that's an interesting question. I have no idea. Not that, certainly not that many. for a couple reasons. One, I just didn't sing a whole lot.

And generally speaking, and to my great frustration, because finding good singers is the most difficult thing I ever deal with. It still deal with it now. Once you find a good singer, they're a part of that gimmick. Yeah. Like, I couldn't use Chris Warren to sing somebody else's theme. I mean, he was sort of in that DX world forever. Is he the same guy who sang Triple H is my time?

Yeah, but I was about to say, you can expand it out because Triple H was in DX. And so, you know, okay, you can stretch it that far. But that's as far as you can stretch it. because people will hear that voice and go like, oh, that's the guy who sings the X. Yeah. And for me, I have always thought it's so crucially important. And I dealt with this when WWE started to use pieces of outside music. And people there always felt like, oh, well, it makes this bigger to use this piece of music.

I believe that's true for something like a pay-per-view theme to brand like a pay-per-view or like using the highway to hell or aces and so on but not as a theme because I think it's so important that when you hear someone's theme you have no associations with that other than that person you you can't have Undertaker coming out and people are thinking about the first time they made out with a girlfriend. I mean, you know, to a kid rock song. That happened to be the song that was on the radio in the car at the time. Yeah.

You know, you just want hyper-focus. You want people to be completely immersed in this emotional world of this character or as close as you can get to it. And outside music, people are, you know, whether they like it or they hate it, that's what they're going to be thinking about when they hear it. So what sneaky song could we hear your voice on that we might not know it's your voice? Oh, there was a Smackdown theme that I did where it was sort of my homage and criticism of the monster voice, the cookie monster voice in heavy metal songs.

Or, you know, it's just like, oh, oh, so. And that was another thing where it was a real hurry-up thing. So I had, you know, I had a pretty good groove going, and I needed a singer, and I realized I'm not going to have time to get, find some heavy metal singer who can do that weird voice thing. and then I thought like well who cares

you can't tell what they're singing anyway so I sang complete gibberish so it was so funny having people try to figure out what the lyrics was I was just go

oh bro look oh my girl and that's great I've slowed my voice down a little bit, so I... You know, even though you're not employed by WWE, your music is still playing every single week, I imagine you still get quite a few royalty checks from WWA. Yeah, well, not from WWE, but from BMI.

Those are, you know, look on the back of your CD case or something, you'll see BMI or ASCAP. Those are called Performance Rights Society, and they are the organizations that, collect royalties and distribute them to composers. Yeah, so that part's nice. So do you get more based on where it's played? Like if your theme is played on Raw versus WrestleMania, if it's played for eight minutes, like an Undertaker entrance versus 30 seconds?

Oh, timing, yes, definitely. And where, yes. Like if you have a piece of music that's played for one minute. if it's played on USA Network for one minute, you know, you're going to make, I don't even know what per minute is. Like, let's say, one minute you get $100. If that played on CBS in primetime, it could be a couple of thousand dollars. So when your themes play on Friday Night Smackdown on Fox, much more? More, yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I've never, I've actually never, you know, tried to, it's sort of hard to discern unless you've got the exact same piece of music playing on both and you can see. But yes, there's an absolute sliding scale and it's actually a big controversy going on right now with the performance rights societies because so many people are getting their content through streaming and all the composers who have lots of stuff. on streaming services are saying, you know, why are the rates so low when the vast majority of people are watching TV and movies

and everything else through a streaming service? Right. And it has to change because clearly, I mean, it's happening exponentially fast at this point, the changeover.

I think the bigger problem, it's happening so fast, I believe the bigger problem now is, what are these terrestrial TV stations going to do it? I mean, how is the CBS going to transition out of this, you know, to, I don't know the answer to that. I mean, is, you know, regular TV as we know are going to basically fade away. I would assume it's going to basically fade away and that new TVs will essentially just be

a computer and you'll turn on your computer and instead of turning to channel two you'll be turning to cbs.com right and streaming from there so where can we hear some of your other work right now that's not wrestling related because you're doing all kinds of stuff outside of wrestling um well i've got you know in a somewhat related topic to that um the way the means music industry works, every piece of music has two owners. It has the composer and it has the publisher. And if it's a situation like mine where I'm the sole composer and WWE is the sole publisher. So there are two ways of looking at it. It's like that.

Either I own 50% of that composition and they own 50%. But the way the music industry deals with it is really each composition is 200%. I own 100% of the composition side. They own 100% of the publishing side. The weirdness to that system is if you're the publisher, if Chris is the publisher, you have all the power. So Ford could come to us and say like, hey, we want to use Stone Cold Steve Austin's theme for our new F-150s. I could say, great idea.

I love that. And you could say, no, not into it. And we're not doing it. Wow. It's that simple. And there are all sorts of. So along with that, I can't do anything with my own music because they're the publisher.

I would have to go to them for permission to say, I'd like to send this to Ford because I want to pitch an idea. And I just want to make sure you guys would be on board if I can sell it. Because if they're not, I'm dead in a water. Which is very weird to not be able to do something with your own. music. I can use it for a demo purpose, you know, demo reel, but that's it.

So when post-W.E, I found myself in the situation that I have to create a reel of music because I've been busy for all these years, not making my own music. And even a few songs

that were my songs that I kind of, I guess you'd say loan to WWE. They're now mine, but there's another element in music business called Master. It's that recording. So that recording, they own that recording, even though I own the composition side and the publishing side, they own that recording.

So I can't use that recording. And this is what's happening now for anyone who are fans of Taylor Swift. Yeah. She's been re-recording masters to get control of her. Yeah. And it's a, it's a, it's, there are a lot of unfairnesses in the music industry. And boy, that's a big one that needs to be sorted out. But so in any case, I've been in the process of, of creating a reel.

And, and that takes time to promote myself basically. So there's some stuff that I keep in sort of rotation on my website, mainly orchestral stuff, which I've really enjoyed taking the time to do. But right now I'm working on a bunch of songs, including a few I'm throwing out there, which are basically like entrances. because, you know, I've had a couple of ideas where it's like I got to do that. That's good. So. You're also scoring films, scoring TV shows as well? No, I'm trying to.

That's what I'm trying to do. And I'm just about to sign with someone in Hollywood or sort of in negotiations now. This is exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, everything's great.

it's a little scattered. And, you know, getting out of WWE, it's like going through a divorce. You know, you've been doing the same thing for so long. Yeah. There's a considerable amount of emotion that happens and readjusting yourself because, you know, you, for so long, you've just gotten up every morning and you're doing the same thing and you know what's on your table. And then you get up one morning and that's no longer on the table or that person is no longer laying next to you anymore. And, you know, that takes adjustment. Or it did for me.

I think it seems obvious that you're a Hall of Famer, but do you think that WWW will induct you into their Hall of Fame? I think if they haven't already, they're not going to. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's one of those kind of pesky things where you don't want to be petty about it. But it's like you guys did fire me. And now you want me to come back and kind of put you over by doing. you know, the Hall of Fame.

So it's, it's, you know, would it be an honor? Sure. But at the same time, would it be uncomfortable? It certainly would be uncomfortable because there are a number of people there that I would be thrilled not to see again and not to have to shake their hand and pretend that we're all friendly. But I don't know. You know, it's just, it's not a big aspect of my life now. And I'm loving what I'm doing.

And, you know, one of the really exciting things and positive things after doing the WWE thing for so long is to be able to come to the studio and write whatever you want. Yeah. You know, not being told like, okay, you know, Chris needs a theme. And we need. I do. I need a theme. Yeah.

I'll do a theme for you. You want to think. Oh, my God. I would die a happy man after that. I think, I mean, I'd really do a theme for you. What do you think? What would be a theme for you? What would your desk in?

Boy, we could be on this for the next four hours trying to figure this out. But I was a backyard wrestler when I was 16. Really? And I had a rage against the machine song because I was a heel. Uh-huh. I can't remember what it was called. But that was my theme song. I don't know.

I mean, I'm like, you'd be more comfortable being a baby face or a heel? I think I'd be a baby face now. I mean, I've liked to think that I'm pretty positive and charismatic and happy. I like to smile. Yeah, you are. Yeah. That comes off.

But sometimes they make the best yields. Because, you know, think about your easiest way is think about your favorite films in particular. The best bad guys are the most outstanding. Hannibal Lecter. you know they're not the steedy ugly dirty you know it's sort of trite you know okay you're a bad guy I get you know please slap me in the face again but you know it's that person or like the mystery thing where there's this charming, perfect guy. And it's like, well, he's not the serial killer.

I mean, my God, heaven, this guy is, this is the guy who's trying his best to save everyone and catch the serial killer. So those are the best guys to find out he's the serial killer. Yeah. You know, because the good guys are only as good as the bad guys are bad. And if you're, if you're going to play Superman, you better pray that they come up with, you know, a Joker dude or Baton. Lex Luthor.

Who's like, he's really bad. I mean, he's really messed up sick guy. And so that makes Batman better because, A, it's challenging to win. It's meaningful to win. And this other guy is so bad and so scary. And even though you know it's only a movie, you can't help but think like, man, there are probably guys out there like this. And these people need to be killed, you know, and put away because, you know, that's dangerous. Yeah.

So to have bad guys who are really dangerous. I mean, it'd be interesting to go to. Also, I'm a bit of a contrarian where I don't, like, if there was a new black guy wrestler, immediately, like the last thing I want to do is hip hop. He's like, oh my God, okay, yeah, he's black, so listen to hip hop, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, just, it's like, no, how about let's do anything but hip-hop? So you say that, and my first impression when we started talking about a theme for you

would be something very mysterious, very dark, and, and still could be used for your show because it would come off like, what am I doing this week? Who knows? I mean, you know, I could be interviewing Jim. I could be interviewing the rock. I could be surfing. I could be climbing a mountain.

You know, I could be interviewing some beautiful woman, you know. As opposed to, a lot of the time, you know, it's, Like, you're already, the whole upbeat, you know, healthy, good looking, handsome guy and fit and everything. You don't need music to sell that. You sell that. You're sold it. So now you're being redundant. Your music is saying the obvious.

I think you want music to be kind of a subtext that's saying something deeper about what you believe or what's going on underneath the circle. I love, this is like a masterclass here. I love this. But as we wrap this up, Jim, can you pick up your guitar and give me a little riff of what the Chris Van Fleet theme would sound like? No, it would be a, it would be a piano riff and think. It's a piano riff. I don't know. Oh, sorry.

Oh, I don't. Oh, I. I'll never think of it. Whatever you just came up with, it's good enough for me. I'll do it. It's something like it's this. Something like that. Something in that category.

This has been such a treat talking. Oh, I got to know. It's been great to spend some time with you. I love it. And I want to be respectful of your time, but I, I end. every interview talking about gratitude because it's such an important thing in my life. And you see it right here. I love this. Be great. Be grateful. Me too. So I start and end every day saying out loud three things that I'm grateful for. So I end every interview the same way.

I want to ask you, Jim, what are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? I'm grateful for this period of time. I've always been a pretty, instinctual person and I feel the wave coming that, you know, there's been this huge chapter one in my life, WW. And so I'm very grateful for this interim time because chapter two is, is so eminent, I mean, like truly, potentially days eminent away. Just so many different things conspiring in a good way in my life. Love it. My wife, without question, she keeps me centered and, and, you know, sane and fed and all sorts of good things.

And I'm grateful for just being, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. You know, as uncomfortable as I know it makes some people, I'm being dishonest if I don't say it. I've just been so blessed by God to live a great life, to just have great good fortune. And in that whole relationship, I take that seriously in that I have a responsibility in that relationship. I don't think he just feed you stuff for free. I feel like I do my part. I work hard. I have a very strong work ethic and responsibility to what I do.

But I feel like I got this great gift. And I feel like it's my responsibility to get it out there. And so I'm grateful that I've had this great opportunity to get it out there through WWE. and I'm really happy to see some things opening up here to some chapter two outlets. Give me your three. On behalf of wrestling fans all around the world, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for everything that you've done. Thank you for scoring our childhoods.

Thank you for scoring our adolescent years. Thank you for all of the memories that are linked to simply you just making some incredible music. Thank you. you're welcome. Could you do us the great honor of playing us out? Sure. What do you want to hear? Oh my. What do I want to hear? Well, you know, and also be aware that, you know, like if it's a rock theme, it's not, it's just one of me, so it's not going to. Of course. I think we should go back to the piano and Undertaker? Play the Undertaker.

My gosh. Weird. Weird. Oh, man. Goosepumps. Guestpuffs. What a way to end an interview. What a fascinating man. And I'm super grateful for the opportunity to have shared this time with Jim Johnson. A huge thank you to him for this conversation. And I'm so excited to see and hear what's next for him. Share this interview with someone who you know will love it. Take a screenshot, tag me on social media. I'm at at Chris Famfleet. And hey, if you have Instagram, I'm also giving away a big gold belt from Fandu belts on there. So make sure to check that out. I'll leave you with this quote from Andrew Murray,

who says, you are confined only by the walls you build yourself. Be great. Be grateful, my friends. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do.

With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it. Get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast.

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