Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Joe Gacy: Wyatt Sicks, WWE Exit, What's Next, "The Most Illegal Move In The History Of Wrestling"

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Joseph Sawyer (@joe_gacy) is a professional wrestler best known for his time in WWE as Joe Gacy. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Orlando, FL to discuss him and the rest of the Wyatt Sicks being released by WWE, the group's incredible debut, winning the Tag Team Championships, memories of Bray Wyatt, his controversial NXT persona that became mainstream news, being part of "the most illegal move in wrestling" viral video, the Wyatt Sicks having their own attraction at Universal's Halloween Horror Nights, what's next for him in wrestling and more! Please support our sponsors: HELIX SLEEP: Flash sale! Go to https://helixsleep.com/cvv for 27% off sitewide! COZY EARTH: Go to https://cozyearth.com/CVV for up to 20% off! BEAM: Go to https://shopbeam.com/INSIGHT and use code INSIGHT for up to 40% off Beam’s Dream Powder DELETEME: Use the code INSIGHT to get 20% off your DeleteMe plan at https://joindeleteme.com/INSIGHT FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFF PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/cvv SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the PrizePicks app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 bonus credit in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup! For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you so much for making this happen. Thank you for making this happen. This question gets thrown around a lot in the world, but I mean this in the most intentional way. How you doing? No, good. I think, I think, I wouldn't have thought that years ago, having known what's, you know, where I'm at now. But, yeah, I don't know. I feel, I feel good.

I feel motivated. I feel hopeful. So feeling good. Where do you go from here? Well, from here, you know, I, as soon as everything kind of went down, I tried to hit the ground running as quick as I could with what I'm allowed to do at the time. So I just kind of took a day and started organizing some stuff and getting some things in order. But, you know, now it is time to get back out there. It's been six years, I think, now since I've been kind of out of the wrestling scene otherwise.

So I'm kind of re-educating myself on the state of independent wrestling, you know, other companies wrestling. So, yeah, I'm just ready to get back out there and get moving. Did you have any idea that this might be coming, that you might get released? So I think there was a little inkling. I don't know. As far as the group, I don't know if anyone else in the group felt it. But I think I had a little inkling, like leading into, we were in Las Vegas. It was WrestleMania Week, and we were doing Smackdown.

And we had a big, it was supposed to be the big blowoff match with the MFT. So they told us we were doing a street fight. So it was the week before we were supposed to do a promo to hype up the match, this and that. And we did it and we actually pitched a way to do it. And they really liked it and we shot it. And it was actually the first chance, really, for each of us in the group to have a little, like, part of the promo. Because they didn't keep, they kind of kept us quiet a lot of the time and let Taylor do a lot of the talking. But we did one where we each had a little piece.

that we got the right ourselves and came off good. The writers said, this was great, we need more of this. And then they cut it from the TV and they just aired it online. So I think we were all little, that's kind of weird. And then they told us, oh, it was a timing thing, like, run out of time. And I was like, okay. These are kind of things I'm looking back at now and kind of realizing I think the ball was already kind of rolling.

And then I guess the big thing. So in Vegas, we were actually originally planned to make an appearance at the Tony Hitchcliff show he was doing. There was supposed to be a thing where we were, I guess, originally pitched to come out and, like, kidnap him. And it ended up being, I guess, Undertaker, give him a choke slam through a table. So instead of that, it was supposed to be something with us. And then they told us that I think it was the day before, like, that's not happening now. We're like, okay, no problem. And then going into the Smackdown, us being the baby faces, they didn't allow us to use a lot for the match.

And in my head, I was like, I mean, yeah, there's like stuff going on for the main event. I understand sometimes they, you know, have things planned for other people. They don't want us to touch. That's totally fine. And then the big thing was, and I'm not one to complain about this type of thing, but they had MFT going over on us. and as us being the baby faces and like this being the blow off, we're all kind of a little confused about that decision. And even some other guys in a locker room were like,

that's really weird that they're over on you guys. So, you know, it was fine. But I think just the overall vibes, just interactions, like small interactions I had backstage and that whole weekend seemed a little off. So I don't know. I had this like second sense or sixth sense that something was coming. And I didn't know what it was. And I just hoped, you know, well, we'll get through this.

And then post-Ressomania, we'll hopefully move on to the next thing and get something good going. And that is not what happened. And then it wasn't long after that that you got the phone call. Yeah, I think it was my recollections correct. Oh, well, actually it followed up after very. Vegas. This was, I think this was really kind of the icing on the cake to tell me something definitely was going on. We were supposed to have a Smackdown of Fort Worth, which we were booked. We had, had it on our schedule. We got travel for it. And then I think I asked travel a question

about a flight. And then they just came back with, you guys are actually canceled off the show. So I'm going to cancel your travel. So we were like, Huh, that's interesting. So I had to cancel all my hotels and stuff. But so it was, I guess, I don't know if it was that day or maybe a week after that or I think it might have been that day, actually, if I remember right. So it might have been a week after Vegas that we got the call. I guess everyone called it Black Friday or whatever. Yeah, so that was when that happened.

Did you think the whole group was going to get released? I think fans were so surprised by that. We were surprised as well. And I know we were talking about it. I'm shocked that they let all of us go. I'm shocked that they let Taylor go. I thought for sure, if it's going to be us, he'll still be there doing something.

But it was strange because I remember it too, because I was about to get a shower. And my phone rang and I saw it was a Stanford number. And I was like, well, that could either be good. or bad. So I took a shower, got out of the shower, and then the group had a group chat. So I just texted in the group chat like, hey, did anyone else get a phone call? And I think it was Dexter, who was like, yep. And I was like, is it what I think it is? And he was like, yep. And I was like, all right then. So I called them back and then had that conversation. How are you feeling,

though? Like I said, good. I think, I think there was a level of frustration. with a lot of us in the group. You know, at first, things started great. Things were strong. They seemed like they had a lot behind us. You know, things were rolling for a while. And then somewhere along the way, I don't know what happened. They, I don't know if they lost faith in us or if something happened where they just didn't feel like it was working anymore or anything.

But I think the level of frustration was we, every week. we would have something. We would have an idea, a pitch for them, and we would tell them, we would talk to writers all the time. We would give them all these ideas. Nothing ever happened of the ideas. Some people would be like, yeah, that sounds cool. And then that was it.

So I think there was just a level of frustration and confusion on the way. They used us in certain areas on the show. So in my opinion, I wish I have. had the opportunity to speak a little more, being in the group. So I think just the level of frustration, it was almost like a relief a little bit. And honestly, getting hired in 2020, it was always in the back of my head. Like, there was always that thought, like, what's going to happen the day I get released because, you know, everybody does eventually.

So I always had that thought and plan sort of in the back of my head. Never really fully thinking it was something I was going to have to do. but one day I was like, yeah, I will have to do it. So, you know, I think it was a little bit of a relief, a little bit of, I don't know, a weight taken off me, I guess, in a way. Because I don't know, I think just the position we were in was a little strange for us. Even, I guess, for, you know, creative, I think it was just a little miscommunications here and there,

not figuring out the right way to use us, whatever, whatever. it is exactly. So I think it was just a little bit of a relief. The U.S. soccer podcast. I'm your host, Megan Klingeberg. And after interviewing so many dudes during this men's World Cup, I'm so happy to be back with my U.S. women's national team players. I know the U.S. men's national team has changed how I think about myself, how I think

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Can you pinpoint the moment when the Wyatt Six started losing momentum? I think, in my opinion, is I think it's because they didn't really allow us to develop individually. So I think a lot of the focus was on Taylor, which obviously makes sense. Yeah, and Bo Dallas is the leader of the group. Absolutely. It makes sense. the leader. I do feel like that if they allowed us to develop a little bit more individually, like even our first VHS tapes that were put out, like early on after the debut, I know Rowan had

a chance to his VHS vignette was a little longer than ours, but I filmed one where I cut a whole promo and they just didn't use it. They just had me humming and rocking back and forth. I just feel like if we had the chance to develop a little more, get a little bit more connection with the audience. Unfortunately, there was a time where Taylor had to take some time off because of the health issue, we, they kind of pushed pause on us. And I think that, not allowing us to have that little development where we could have carried things on a little bit on our own, why he took the time off, like, we could have still carried on and done stuff creatively without him and then could have had a big moment when he came back.

And I think that was maybe the beginning because I guess in their eyes, the group was Taylor, which I do to an extent understand, but I think we just weren't given the chance to develop ourselves so we can also become more of a presence in the group. That debut was huge.

When the Wyatt 6th debuted, it's this beautiful one shot, right? And the crowd's going crazy. they're chanting for you guys. They're chanting for you guys just to stand there. Yeah, which was insane. How did it feel being part of that? So I guess leading into that was it was a whirlwind for me because, you know,

I was a fresh call up from NXT. First thing I do is get put in this position where I'm in this group, like a legacy group with Taylor and all the other guys and Nikki. So going in, it was a big deal and it was a lot of excitement. And I think leading up to the day, it was all excitement. And then the day of when we got there and we put our gear on and we were rehearsing, it started slowly setting in how, like, heavy it was. Like, we rehearsed that one shot so many times before the show.

Like, I'd say 10 times maybe. And then when it was go time, that was the moment I got. nervous. Like, I felt fine up until then. And then as soon as we were ready to go, the nerves hit me. And I realized this is like the, I realized the weight of like what we were doing in the situation. And it's big shoes to fill, right? Yes. The Wyatt family was beloved. Bray Wyatt is beloved. Absolutely. Now this is like the next version of that. And fans have massive expectations for it. And I feel like at least with that debut, they hit it out of the park. Yeah. I mean, I could not have gone better for me, for us, especially, you know, my debut on the main roster.

I don't think a lot of people get to say that, that they had such a huge successful main roster debut. So it was heavy, but then, like, as soon as the moment was done, everyone was happy. It was, like, such a feeling. Like, I can't even fully describe, like, how it felt. And I think even, like, the weeks following after that, it was still crazy to me that, like, I was. in this position doing this, being a part of this legacy and continuing it. Yeah. It's, I mean, I'm here now still looking back going, it almost doesn't feel real that it happened.

Because, I mean, I guess because it was so fast as well. But yeah, it's very, very wild. How did you get approached originally to be part of the Y-Six? I think it. So I don't even know if it was like a question. I think it was just like, this is what's going to happen. And you were doing a completely different gimmick in NXT at the time. Yeah, so I think, I do think Powers of B kind of knew what was coming.

So the tail end of my run at NXT was a little bit of almost like, yeah, do what you want. So for a little bit of time there, I kind of just had fun. I did me. And Sean Michaels had his input. Obviously, it was mostly his idea. but he kind of let me loose a little bit, I think, for the first time until, because I feel like he probably didn't even know when the call up or when it was actually going to happen because when I first heard, it was supposed to happen sooner.

So I was reached a guy named Rob Fee, who was in creative, reached out to me and kind of gave me the heads up and was like, hey, don't be upset if like your time on NXT TV starts going down a little bit. This is what's coming. So he kind of gave me the heads up about it. And I was like, oh, okay. And then at that point, it was like months. It was months later that anything, even any movement happened on it. But yeah, I mean, I think it was more of a, hey, this is the idea. This is what they want to do. And of course, I'm just like, oh, this is crazy. Yes, let's, let's do this. What were you told was the inspiration or what the focus would be on this?

because you're paying homage to the Wyatt family, but this is something totally different. Yeah, I think that was kind of the pitch was like, you know, we're continuing on the legacy. And the whole idea of the group was, and I don't think this was ever conveyed properly through promos or anything on TV was really the idea is that each member of the group, we are who we used to be.

Like I was the same Joe Gacy from NXT at the time, But the whole idea was that Bo Dallas, now in this place he's in, becoming Uncle Howdy, split personality. It's almost like a cult idea where he kind of convinced us like, hey, you know, we can have this family together. And he kind of, the idea was he pushed these, you know, lack of a better term, characters on us because they were from the Firefly Funhouse. So in his mind, the crazy side of Bo Dallas saw, like, for instance, me, like he saw me as Huskis. Like, I was the puppet of Huskis just brought to life, sort of. So as the idea for the group was we were all kind of in on it where I know I'm Joe Gacy, but I'm also using the, you know, live puppet Huskis as far as a personality. So it's, I know it's a little complex, I guess, to explain on TV,

but I don't even think we touched upon that, like, at all. But the whole idea was, you know, it started as we're going to be a family. We are a chosen family together. And that was, you know, we were supposed to stick by each other. We never even wanted to tease any kind of like animosity or anything like that. So, and I think they just wanted us to be psychopaths, essentially. I know you're a big film guy. So was there any horror film influence in the way that you played that character?

So for me personally, they did allow us to put a little bit into each thing. I mean, my big thing is Leatherface from Texas Chain's O Massacre. So basically Jason Baker, the guy who, you know, worked with Wyndham and did all the gear and masks, everything with them, basically asked me like, you know, what are you feeling as far as like the vibe of this gimmick? and I'm just like, I mean, it'd be great if I could do anything in the style of leather face. So I think that's why he made the mask the way it looked because it was like pigskin but sewn together. Pretty much in the style of leather face. He was the one that had the idea to make it like a gas mask.

But yeah, that was just his brilliance putting that all together. But for me, I kind of saw it as like leather face, maybe a little hint of old mankind. in there. I think that's where maybe the hunchwalk sort of came from. So that's kind of how I envisioned it anyway. What did you think of the early buzz from fans? When like when it was just being rumored that this group might be put together, your name was attached to it like immediately. Yeah.

I feel like fans had figured out like these are going to be the six people. Yeah. How did you feel being part of that conversation? I mean, it was cool because I think before then I wasn't the most well-liked person on the internet. when it came to wrestlers. And I think that stemmed from the way I debuted in NXT. But, yeah, I mean, it was awesome to be able to be a part of something like that, especially like a fandom.

Like the Wyatt fandom is like, like I've been in wrestling for a long time, but I've never been a part of a fandom like this. Like all the fans of anything Wyatt related, Wyatt Six, Wyatt family, Bray, Uncle Howdy. Like, they've been amazing. They've been great. And I feel like they're kind of in on it. like, I don't know. I just don't feel like there's a fandom like that, and I'm very fortunate to be able to

experience it. You touched on a bit there, but when you debuted in NXT, it was a pretty controversial character. Yeah. And I feel like it ended up going outside of wrestling as well. Like, you had this character that was like talking about the, like, this is a safe space. Yep. You were like, I don't know, I just feel like it ended up going out into the mainstream media, too.

Yes, yes, it did. Well, that's kind of a crazy. That was a crazy time. So I get hired in 2020, first post-COVID group to come into the Performance Center. And almost for a year, I'm kind of just there, like doing classes, you know, meeting everybody trying to find my way on TV. I guess in my head, I'm like, all right, well, I'm here. So now I have to figure out how I get on. So, It did start when my technical first debut was we had like the tournament. Wow, the NXT tournament, breakout tournament. And I had a match and I went out first round. That was still when it was like black and gold era. But then they kind of told us like, hey, things are changing. We're going to be starting like a new version of NXT. And then that's when the conversation started for the new character.

it began as Sean Michael's full idea. He kind of saw it. The way he explained it to me was more of like a like a Scientology type thing, turned into like social justice warrior kind of thing. But the whole idea was always going to be, it would eventually turn into kind of a cult thing. I saw comparisons to right to censor.

Yeah, yes. Like in the way that you were cutting these like cult leader promos. Exactly. Like what Stevie Richards did. Yeah. And it was always supposed to be like, I have this nice smile. I'm a nice guy, but there's just something underneath that's not right. That was always supposed to be the idea. So the debut, I did my first promo. I did a match against Cameron Grimes. And it was well received backstage. Everyone was super happy with it. And then, you know, I think the next day, it got a bunch of headlines. I think the headline might have been Fox News was

WWE wrestler or might have just been WWE Polks Fun at the woke left. And I saw that and was like, oh, well, that's not what it was supposed to be. But so the word is, this is when Vince McMahon was still in charge. He saw the headline and got very upset. Sean Michaels called me and said,

hey, Vince is not too happy with what happened. Unfortunately, we're going to have to take you off TV for a little bit. And I was like, okay. And he's like, don't worry. We're going to figure it out. And I was like, okay, understood. But man, that's got to be scary. It was.

You just got there. I was scared. I made my first debut. I thought I was like, all right, awesome. I knocked it out of the park. And now, oh, now I'm off TV. Yeah. So the idea was the next week that were going to kind of Easter egg me in a backstage,

which we shot it. I was just backstage somewhere hugging somebody, I think it was. Show starts, you know, they do like the pre-show stuff around 7.30. TV starts at 8. I think it's maybe 6.45. I get a text to come to Sean's office. And I go in Sean's office. And it's him and one of the headwriters.

And they have, I believe, Bruce Pritchard on the phone. And they're just typing this promo. And I'm like, what's going on? And they're like, all right. So we're going to have you go out and cut this promo today. So it turns out Vince saw the headline and kind of freaked out, but then he actually went back and watched it and apparently loved it. So he was on board after he actually watched the actual promo.

So they typed me out like a three-page promo, and I had to remember it in 30 minutes. And that was probably the most stressful time in my life and career ever. I just locked myself away in a corner somewhere, just kept going over it, going over it, going over it. And there was a writer at the time there named Jim Smallman who kept checking in with me. Like, you think you got it, you got it.

I'm like, I think we're going to do this. The answer has to be yes. Yeah, it has to be yes. There's no other way about it. And I went out there and I did it. And it probably wasn't word for word, but apparently Vince was happy with what I did. everyone else was happy with what I did.

So yeah, I think from that point on, there was nothing that this company was ever going to give me. That would stress me out ever again because that was the most stressful time I think I've ever had there. What happened to that character? Why didn't end? So I think it didn't so much completely end, but I think it started evolving.

So they wanted to give me a group, which they came up with the name, Schism. And so, It originally was supposed to be me, and there was another guy there, Parker Boudreau, who was Harlan at the time. And it was supposed to be us. And for me, they told me I was going to do a group. So I was pitching for more of a like straight edge society type of group. And I think originally it was going to be me, him, and I was pitching for Simone to do it at the time.

So in my head, it was going to be us three, kind of in the style of the straight edge society that Sam Punk did. and one thing led to another. The company decided to let Parker go at the time. So then me and Simone were just kind of throw ideas back and forth. Like maybe we can make it like this. Maybe we could do this and this. And then they decided to put GYV with me, which they changed their names to, was it Rip Jagger?

No. Oh my God. They probably don't even want to remember those names. But anyway, they put GYV with me, and then we created this group. So they put them in kind of the similar clothes as me. They had me in the gray button up. So they had JD in the white, and then they had Jack in the black. And we were doing it for a little while.

And I think the idea was we wanted to pitch to give it a little bit more of an edge because it felt like it was starting to go a little flat. So we pitched, you know, more of a darker look, kind of lean into the creepy a little bit more, which is kind of where things started taking a turn. And we had the different gear. And then we started really using like the tree logo. And then we had a good run, I think, from there. And then we added Simone eventually she joined, which was awesome because I was worried she wasn't going to get involved, even though she, me and her kind of came up with a lot of the ideas originally that we were trying to put into this group. So we did an angle with Chase U, which was, I think probably my favorite thing I did with the schism group. and then behind the scene stuff,

GYV decided to part ways with the company. So they told me, they gave me the heads up that weekend. I think it was WrestleMania, Los Angeles. Like, hey, just want to give you the heads up, nothing to do it you, but we're asking to go. And I respected their decision.

I understand I don't want to tell their story, but they had some things they weren't too happy about at the time. So, you know, they parted ways. the company ultimately. And I think that's almost around the time the Wyatt Six stuff really started being talked about, like, in creative and management. So there was a point where Sean asked me, like, what do you want to do now?

So he was like, I think, feel like it's kind of ran its course. Maybe it leaned too far into the cult stuff. I'm not really sure. But, I mean, I think he knew. that I eventually was going up for the group. So he kind of was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I mean, I'll do anything you really want me to. I was very open to all his ideas.

And then that's kind of the turn of when I started doing my lack of a better term, crazy Joe Gacy at the end of NXT. You had an asylum match in NXT. I did, yeah. With DiJack, where he wraps your head and duct tape to the point where he's covered your eyes. Yeah. Could you legit not see? Um, so a little bit.

I tried to have it where the tape was kind of here so I can at least see a little bit underneath. But, you know, in a match, things are going so fast. You can't exactly get it exactly. So there was a point where I had to like try to push it up a little bit. But luckily, if I remember right, it was like right toward the end of the match. Yeah, it's near the finish. But that's like something out of a horror movie. Yeah.

Yeah, I was more concerned with my hair pulling it off. So what was it like when you had to pull it off? I did get lucky and I got very sweaty in that match. So I was very wet by the end. It sounds gross. So it came off pretty easily. So the tape was already kind of loose. And I did cut a promo backstage still taped up.

Because I was like, oh, we have to do a promo like this. So I did a promo fully taped up. I think the straight jacket was hanging off me still. That was probably one of my favorite promos. I think I did in NXT. I think a lot of WWE fans think that, you're a dark character. Like, I think because they saw you in the Wyatt 6th, that's who you are.

Yeah. Who was Joe Gacy before WWA? Well, I probably was a little bit of a dark character, but I do have a fun side, I think. I think before I went to WWE, I was, lack of a better term, I had like a little bit of like a dark character, but I still was, you know, I still was me. I didn't really have like a full-on gimmick, I guess.

I just had more of a vibe. So, you know, I had times where I had fun. So I wasn't always like a dark character. I would probably joke too much at times. And I'd have to reel myself in to not become like a, I guess, comedy wrestler. So that was when I kind of started to try to really focus on trying to be more serious at the time. I remember how big of a deal it was when the Wyatt Sixth unmasked. Yeah.

Like that was such a huge deal. And like, you're standing on the ring apron. and then Nikki Cross jumps cross body off the top to Chad Gable. Yeah. What do you remember from that night? I think it was just one of those nights where I was still kind of stunned that I was in the position I was in. And I think for me, I was more stressed about trying to make sure it was coming off as perfect as possible. So the thing with the mask I wore was I couldn't see a thing when I'm wearing it.

So if anyone sees the way I walk, I walk. with kind of like one eye forward. It's literally because it's the only way I can move forward because it's a gas mask. So the goggles are here. So unless I turn my head and look like this, I couldn't see out of it. Oh, but man, it works so well for the character.

It's true. Yeah. And then on top of that, once I'm having that thing on for 10 minutes or not even 10 minutes, maybe 5 minutes, it's goggles. So they just start fogging up. Oh, from the sweat.

So I'm just like almost blind the whole time. So I never knew when everyone else was taking their masks off. So I had to make my best guess as to like when to remove it. So I was hoping that we were all getting it at the same time. So I think that specific moment, I was like, well, this is the unmasking. So we can't mess this up. And I think we timed it pretty good. A beautiful pop-up power bomb, where you power bomb, Dexter, onto the Kree brothers. Yeah. Love that. It was done so well. Yeah, we were big fans of doing that. I think we even, we did it in a lot of the matches. I remember Triple H going.

Is that you guys finisher? And we were like, I don't know. It could be. It ended up not being it. Your finisher was a suplex into a power bomb. Yeah, suplex power bomb. Did you have a name for that? I think we called it.

There was a name, but we only said it like twice. What the heck was it? Whatever you say right now is going to be the answer. Yeah, I think it was like the plague. I think that's what it was called. Right name. Yeah. I think it was called the plague.

Originally, we had a different idea for a finisher. It was actually Dexter, got it from somebody. We were originally going to, it was going to land kind of the same way, but we were going to almost throw the guy up into it rather than the suplex. But the first night we had to do, our finisher was a very, very long, stressful day where we didn't even have time to practice anything else. So we were like, this is what we're going to do, I guess. So that is what ended up sticking. The U.S. Soccer Podcast. I'm your host Megan Klingerberg. And after interviewing so many dudes

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Follow and listen on your favorite platform. How long in advance did you know that you were going to win the tag team titles? Like 10 minutes before. the match. No way. I randomly happen to be at that Smackdown in Nashville. The crowd was so hot for it. Yeah, they were amazing. I love Nashville. The crowd there's great. Yeah. So that was part of the day was, I guess creative was trying to figure out what the ending was because maybe they didn't fully decide we were going over yet. I don't really know. But yeah, it was us in street profits. And we had the

match put together and it's almost time. And we still don't know what the finish is. And we're just like, okay. And then producer came in and was like, all right, this is what we're doing. So then we had to hurry up and get the finish together. And then that's when, you know, in that time is when we basically found out like, oh, we're about to win the tag titles. What did it mean when you got to hold those championships out? I mean, for me, it was a very big deal. I honestly came. into the company, never expecting, like always hoping, but never expecting to win a title. And I kind of, there was a point, I think, in NXT, where I was like, eh, it's fine.

Like, I don't ever need to win one. It's, you know, it is what it is. So I never expected it. And then when it happened, I was like, wow, this is actually, like, you know, not to sound cliche, but it's a childhood dream to be able to come to the company that I, you know, as a kid used to watch on TV and win the WB Tag Team Championship, just holding a title and always being in, you know, the records and history of that is pretty surreal to me.

Yeah, when you think about that, what's the earliest memory you have of pro wrestling? Oh, man. I mean, I probably watched, I probably watched all kinds of stuff as a kid. My brother, I have an older brother. He, you know, he watched first. So he was the first one to kind of show me wrestling. wrestling. And then I think I was like, I don't know, eight years old. And that was when I really

started tuning into Monday Night Raw. And that was when Mankind, like, first debuted on Raw. And that was, if it's not obvious, I'm a big fan of McFoli. So, yeah, that was when I really started locking in on it was really around the time he debuted as Mankind. Have you had a chance to meet McFolle? Yes, actually several times. Amazing. I did tell him that he is the reason that I do this. And he said, don't put that blame on me. But no, he's been great. It's been very cool to be able to, you know, talk to him as a peer almost rather than being a fanboy.

How well did you know Bray Wyatt? So, funny enough, I met him several times, never really full conversations with each other. We ran into each other at the PC one. It was like a hello, hello. And then after he passed is when everyone, like, everyone started telling me how much he thought of me and, like, said he wanted to come down to NXT and do something with me. And I'm like, I had no idea. Like, this is the first I'm hearing about it. And I got upset, obviously, like, you know, it's a shame.

Obviously, everything that happened. And I can only wish, I could have only wished. It's great to hear that he wanted to do something. But now I'm like, well, I really wish we could have. It would have been definitely one of my bucket list highlights in my career to be able to do something like that with him. Everyone says the best things about him. Yeah.

Everyone says he was just the absolute best person on camera and off camera. Yeah. It's great to work with. Yeah, I mean, like I said, the first time I met him, super friendly, very inviting. You know, wish I got to do more with him on TV. I mean, I wish I got to have more time with him off TV. In a way, you got to work with the legacy of Braywild. Absolutely.

And, I mean, Taylor's great. Like, I love Taylor to death. You know, he's one of my favorite people. We, through this whole experience, definitely bonded, traveling together, doing overseas tours together. I mean, everybody in the group, definitely. But I feel like me, me, Sam. Dexter and Taylor were maybe a little bit more tight-knit together on the traveling days anyway.

Is that who you would usually ride with? So me and Sam would ride together a lot. Taylor enjoyed traveling on his own. Like if it was a drive, he would drive by himself. Even if we tried to drive with him, he's like, no, just go by myself. But like flight, like any flights and stuff, we would try to like sit next to each other and near each other and hang out and talk and stuff. You were on the Indies for a long time. Long time.

Did you ever get to the point where you had given up on the idea of ever getting signed by WWE? So, yeah, actually. I think it was around 20, 2015 was when I started really getting in my head about it. In 2016, it really got to the point because my goal at the time was always to get hired. Everything I did leading up to that point was figuring out how to get hired and then trying to execute the ways to get hired. And then I was, you know, getting older at the time. And I was like, man, I don't know if this is ever going to happen. So then it kind of had that doubt in me where I was like, well, do I even want to keep doing this? And I think I've told this story before somewhere.

But I started dating, who is now my wife, a girl named Amy. And I just remember a conversation with her, because I fell head over heels for her. And I'm working a really bad job, barely making money. What was your job? I was working in a warehouse at a Sears Outlet store, barely making money. I'm like, I can't pay rent. I can't afford things. And I'm like, I meet this great girl.

And I'm like, well, I want to be able to have a life with her. What kind of life am I going to have scraping by doing indie shows on the weekends and working this terrible job? So I told her, like, I'll quit wrestling. and get a good job, like, so we can move in together, make this work. And then she just said, if you quit wrestling, I'm going to leave you. So she pushed me to continue on. And then that was right there is almost when things started kind of happening for me. I did some seminars for Evolve wrestling, which kind of spiraled into me getting signed by Evolve,

which pretty much launched me into getting. That's what got you on WWB's right. Pretty much, yeah. Wow. Yeah, once COVID hit, a lot of things happened, and then I eventually got hired by WWB. And then your life changes. Yeah, yep, almost immediately. Were you living in Orlando already?

No, I used to live in New Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia. So, yeah, I think I got the first conversation I had with a guy named Canyon Seaman about getting hired was, I think June 2020. and then August 2020, we were in the moving truck, moving down to Orlando. Wow. You have my absolute favorite viral wrestling moment of all time. And I show this to my friends who aren't wrestling fans all the time. The most illegal move in the history of pro wrestling. Oh, yeah.

I remember that well. He's using hypnosis. What is the story behind this? Okay. Well, this is a good story. So it all started. There's the tag team, the other tag team in that clip is the Osirian Portal. Two guys I actually used to backyard wrestle with.

All four guys in that match, we all were a part of the same backyard wrestling promotion. So you go way back. Way back. So they did the hypnosis thing already. There was something they've done in their matches. And me and the Ophidion, the snake. We're kind of talking because we, as those two tag teams, we had kind of a feud in different indie, indie companies. And we were like, wouldn't it be awesome if you, like, hypnotize us and we did like a dance off?

And so my partner at the time, a guy named Ryan Slater was not about it. He was like, I don't want to do it. I think if we just have a wrestling match. And then the three of us kind of were like, no, I think we should do it. So we forced them to do it. The best part about it is this is probably not the most professional way. to go about this. The promoter had no idea that we were doing this. He apparently was none too happy. But then when I went viral, I guess he was like, oh, okay. Well, then how did you cue the music?

So we just told the music guy. Oh, all the music guys in on it. Yeah, the music guy was in on it. So yeah, then we did that. And I think the OCR and Portal guys, I think they were excited because they knew I had a little bit of, not like a background of dancing, but I could, I could do some dancing. You hit the worm. So they were excited for me to show off, again, my goofy side a little bit because I was always serious when I wrestled. So, yeah, then we did it. And I think it was like a couple, like a month or two later is when it kind of blew up. What made it go viral?

So I think the first person actually to make it go viral, if I'm not mistaken, was either, don't know how this happened. J.J. Abrams found it on Twitter or Josh Groven, one of them, or both of them. Wow. Like retweeted it. So not even within wrestling. Yeah, which makes it even crazier. So, and then it blew up. It was on some TV shows.

And it was like... Wasn't it on attack of the show? Yes, it was on attack of the show. I love attack of the show. Yeah, that was... Oh, man. Rest of peace G4. I know, rest of piece G4.

I think that was really the first big, like, show it was on because then it started getting on some other TV shows. Yeah. What is this face slide that you do? Well, so it's supposed to be like a headslide. It's unreal. Little did I know going into that. I didn't think about how hard it was going to be to dance on a canvas.

So I kind of burned the top of my head doing that. So, and I probably can never do it having hair now because I had like a shaved head at the time. And I think any of my background breakdancing I've ever done, I used to wear like a beanie to move around easier. So I didn't have any of that stuff. But I had to commit to it. So yeah, I don't know. It was something I saw once. And I was like, let me try it.

and I did it. Not as good, but... What makes the clip so great is that it's a guy that looks like he probably shouldn't know how to dance. Yeah. Is doing this perfect worm followed by that headslide. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun to be a part of. When you went to the back, what was the reaction?

Oh, everyone was, like, freaking out and, like, was like, that was awesome. And that was, I mean, that was really it. Everyone was like, that was amazing. And then when the promoter who was mad about this, when you got to talk to him, how did that go? Oh, he was just like, why'd you do that? and we're like, I don't know, thought it'd be good. That's about it. CZW is known for doing a lot of things, right?

Yes. I guess on the Indies in general, like there was the slow motion wrestling spot. I don't know if that was in CZW or... So I don't think it originated there, but I think it has been done there. Yes. I think CZW at the time was kind of a place where people would bring everything. I think we used to call it a buffet of professional wrestling. It would have a little bit of everything.

But yeah, I think one of my buddies did a slow motion spot at CZW. me once, I believe. This clip of yours still lives on to this day. It does. I actually did not expect you to bring it up today. So there's going to be a lot of people watching this or listening to this going, that was Joe Gacy? So actually, it's funny because people, when I got hired and I was at the PC, people had no idea at first. It was me. And then it started kind of like catching on. And they were like, wait, that was you? And I was like, yeah, that was me. The announcers really sell it too. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like they was, he's you. He's you. Zing hypnosis.

Yeah. I think without them, it wouldn't have been as good. And like, what did he say? He's like he looks like he's rerun in a reincarnated. Oh, recarnated rerun or something in a different body. I don't know.

It's so good. Yeah. Like, that's a moment you'll never be able to top. That's true. Yeah. You were Joe Gacey on the Indies. You were Joe Gacy in WWE.

Yeah. Do you own the name Joe Gacy? Um, so at a time, I did. Uh, when I got hired, just like anybody else.

else that gets hired and begins at the performance center, they suggest like, hey, come up with a list of names. I had like a list of 20 names and I went through a bunch of them and I'm like, I don't like a lot of these or whatever. And then I had one I really liked. Funny enough, it was called Mason King. It was the one I really liked. This was before they had Lexus King. So that was the one I was really pitching. And then they were like, we actually like Joe Gacy. And I was like, you do? I was very confused because at the time I was trying to get away from the Gacy name. I thought of it when I was very young. And then when I grew up and matured a little bit, I'm like, well, this is probably not a name I want to keep using. Well, I think that

the obvious link here is John Wayne Gacy. Yes. It's funny when you type in Joe, just Joe Gacy into a search engine, you're like the first few results. And then it's John Wayne Gacey. You're like, oh, did you mean? Did you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, when I was younger, I thought it was a cool thing or whatever. And then I grew up and got more mature. And I'm like, no, I hate this name. I want to change it. Sure.

So getting hired, I was like, great, we're going to change my name. This is going to be awesome. And then they go, no, we like Joe Gacy. And I said, are you sure? So they offered to buy it from me. And at the time, I just thought, like, well, I'll use it here. And if the time comes where I leave, then I'll be able to do what I want to do. and change my name anyway.

So that is ultimately what happened. So they bought it from me. They now own the name. And now I'm continuing forward with a new name. What's the name you're going to move forward with? Joseph Sawyer is the name I have chosen. Have you thought about, would you want to sign somewhere? Would you want to work under contract when you're able to?

I would love to, given the opportunity. I think I'm excited to dip my toes back into indie wrestling. But for me, I mean, I think I'm the, I'm a TV guy. I want to be on like a TV production company. I want to be in a TV wrestling company. That's, that's how I see it. I just, I learned so much being with WBE that it's kind of ingrained in me now. I was there for six years.

So now I, they twisted my brain into seeing wrestling differently than I used to. Oh, in a way? I think just understanding the TV product may be a little. bit more than I thought I did. I'll be honest, when I first got in, I was like, oh, maybe I'll, you know, spend some time at the PC and get put right on. And I had a little bit of a rude awakening, not realizing how much went into producing a TV match, hitting times, hitting break spots, all kinds of different things like that. And I like to think I got pretty decent at it. So I think I'm at a point where I would love to marry the TV style with the indie style. Like,

I feel like there was a time in NXT that was prominent, but now I feel like they've done away with it a little bit. So now I'm hoping to have an opportunity to go somewhere and kind of do that and be able to show a little bit more of what I can do. So what version are we going to see of you in the Indies? Well, I think if you have been a fan of me in WWB, I think it's going to be a little bit of kind of an amalgamation. Is that how you say that? A combination of almost a little bit of everything, I think. I think just being with the company, I developed this idea of kind of putting it together.

And I think hopefully it'll work. You know, more of a chance for me to talk more. I think that's going to be something I'm really going to focus on doing is more promo work, just because I didn't really get the chance to do it with the Wyatt 6. And I feel like I got pretty decent at it for a little while there. So I'd really like to try to flex those muscles again. Do you think there's a possibility? Like all six members of the Wyatt Six are free agents.

Yeah. Is there a possibility that you guys could all pop up together in AEW or in TNA? I mean, I always say there's definitely a possibility. You know, I don't, I'm not keeping complete tabs on everyone's schedules. I know, I know Nikki's pretty busy lately. She owns Progress Wrestling. Yeah. But I like to think that I think there's a big possibility,

whether it's one of those companies or somewhere else. You guys are doing the one-off appearance, I believe, right? Together. We are. We're doing RussellConn together. And there's some other stuff coming up that it's not all of us at once, but there'll be a few of us around. I know me and Sam Shaw have some stuff together.

so the tag team will be reunited. But yeah, I mean, never say never. I think there's a good chance. There might be something coming down the line that might have all of us together for it. Just waiting to hear if that's a thing or not. Right now, for a limited time, everyone's part of the Buick team, even you. Buick's employee pricing for you event is on now.

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. How do you feel like you view wrestling now versus six years ago before you started with WWA? I think I'm a little bit smarter when it comes to how to approach wrestling in general. I think when I was younger, before I was hired, I think for me it was more of like, I'm going to throw everything at the wall and just see what sticks. I didn't care about my body that much. I did a lot of dumb things when I was younger in wrestling, some death match stuff. And I think just being with the company, it made me realize, like, wow, if I get hurt today, I might miss all this.

So I think it's just like putting things together Like kind of a you know A combination of the indie style and TV style And just more of like the business side of things I think I guess you know best way to say is I think I'm just Smarter to the business than I used to be I think I had a I think six years ago

I thought I had a grasp on understanding the business And I'd always hear like you're always learning. And I always did learn. But I think really being with the company for six years, I really did learn. And I think now I have a better idea on things that I thought I knew, but now have a better idea of. Just, you know, reasons why we do things, reasons why things happen in matches. The why. Yeah, the why.

Yes. John Cena talks a lot about the why. Yes, which is funny because it was. it was actually Terry Taylor at the Performance Center that helped me along with my brain. Because, like, I think physically, it was, wrestling was never an issue for me. I know I'm not the most physically gifted person in the world. But, like, my body, like, I was always fine doing the matches, this, that, that. That's never the hard part.

But I think being with Terry Taylor, hearing him for, you know, being with him for months, teaching us all this stuff. I think it really made me start thinking more. And we did a lot of classes talking about John Sina. Like he's given speeches and things like that. So yeah, I think it's just simple things. Like I think wrestling is a lot simpler than people make it out to me. I think people overthink it, which I also used to overthink it.

And especially young guys out there, I think they overthink it. And I think it's just, it's simple. It can be simpler than it is, and I think people ever think it a lot. I know from following you on Instagram that you and your wife love theme parks and you love Disney. Yes. So, man, it must have been so cool when they did the Wyatt Six at Halloween Horror Nights. Yeah, that was probably the next level. Okay, so I talked about winning a title.

That was something that was always in the realm of possible being with the company. I'm like, that could happen. Never in a million years did I ever think I could have a house at horror nights, Universal Halloween Horror Nights one day. That was never a thought in my mind ever. So when I heard that was a possibility, I was like, yeah, I believe it when I see it. And then it was almost like rumors. And then all of a sudden somebody sent me a picture of like what they were building.

And I was like, oh, so this is real. So that was, that was crazy. Like, lack of a better term, that was so crazy, so surreal. And yeah, something I tried to soak in as much as I could while it was happening. Is horror your favorite genre? Yeah, yeah, mostly. I love anything horror. Yeah, I think, I mean, even just horror nights at Universal, I go every year, even before

that happened. So me and my wife would come here. That went last year was too scared. Yeah. I was too scared. From the second you walk in, people are like snarling at you. Yeah, they're coming at you right away. Yeah, like, what are you doing?

Just want to eat some cotton candy or something. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm a big fan of horror nights. I'm a big fan of horror in general. So I think that was, you know, also part of the excitement of getting put with the Wyatt 6 because it was more in my wheelhouse than probably the social justice warrior stuff at the time. So give me your top four horror film.

Oh, man. Okay. Off the top of my head, I think number one is the thing. John Carpenter's the thing. I'd have to put the shining original Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It's a great choices. Yeah, I think I won't get into the Texas Chainsaw stuff. I have a lot of opinions. Wow. Maybe that's another podcast. Yeah, it's another podcast. What would I put it for? I guess I would probably put Evil Dead 2 at number 4. Okay. This is a great list. Yeah.

Okay. If we look at, because I know you just love movies as a whole. I do. What would your top four movies? Movies of all time. Yeah. Well, so I would put Scott Pilgrim versus the world up there. What a great pick.

Wow. Yeah. That was, that's the one movie I've seen the most in the movie theater. Really? Yeah. I feel like. times I saw it. People always start these lists with a movie from the 70s or the 80s or something, you know, like super, like classic. Okay. Yeah. I mean, Scout Program versus the world.

I mean, I would put the thing there, but if we're doing... You can do that. Okay. I would put the thing up there. Um, oh, man. Hope fiction. Great film. Um, you got to put one more in there. Uh, did, da, da, I guess Dawn of the Dead, the Original, Original Dawn of the Dead. The Dead. The Original, Are you watching movies like all the time? Yeah, as much as I can. I actually just saw Evil Dead Burn last night, the new one. Do you have your tickets for Oppenheimer or Odyssey?

Geez. Not yet. I am going to see Odyssey and the new Spider-Man. They're the big ones I'm waiting on. And then the Resident Evil comes out in October, I think. I'm very excited about Odyssey. Yeah. It looks really good.

Nolan's unbelievable. Yeah. They don't feel like most of my favorite films are during. directed by Christopher Nolan. Yeah. I was a big fan of Inception. Love Inception. Interstellar gets me every time.

Yeah. Oh, so good. Again, this could be a whole other podcast here. But all in all, you're feeling good about what's next. I am feeling good about what's next. I think I'm at first it was more of a, I got to get organized. Because like, again, it did come out of the blue. So I had to get organized, get some things in order, figure out some stuff.

But now that I did all that, now all that's left is kind of the excitement. So I'm just, I got, you know, a little bit of time before I'm back out there. So I'm very excited. Yeah. Is there a match of yours that you don't think enough people talk about or that you wish people talked about more? So I originally would have said the asylum match, but we did talk about the asylum match with DiJEC. So I think for me, personally, personal favorite of mine is in NXT, they did the very first Iron Survivor Challenge for an event called Deadline. I think it's deadline.

And story of my life, I wasn't supposed to be in it originally. And I believe it was supposed to be Tony DiAngelo was the fifth guy. And then I think he got hurt. So they needed somebody to fill the spot. So I was selected. And it was really the first chance I feel like I had to kind of show what I could do in the ring. Because until before that, I had maybe five-minute matches or promos, which is great. Love it.

But just, you know, I know how the NXT audience is. They want to see some action. So I think for me, that was the first match. I really had the chance to pull out some of the things I haven't done in a long time or introduce myself to some. people that might not know a lot about me. Do you feel like on the Indies fans are going to be expecting you to come out wearing the White Six Max mask? I don't know. Actually, it's a good question.

I'm not really sure what the indie fans are. There's a section of the audience that only knows that version of any character you've ever played. That's true. Yeah. Like maybe they're expecting that like single note on the piano for you to come out. Think about it. There's a lot of guys from the attitude era that are still wrestling on the Indies from that gimmick from 25 years ago. That's true.

I think the headbangers are still going strong right now. Those guys haven't aged. Yeah, not at all. I love those guys. Gangrel's still going strong. Oh, love gangrel. Yeah. Me too.

He's amazing. Yeah. So I'm just saying like you're kind of at a crossroads here, right? It's either you go with the tried and true. Yeah. You go with what works or what worked. Or you do, I guess, kind of like the Matt Cardona thing. Yeah.

You try something completely new. Yeah. Reinvent yourself and see where it goes. I think the way I'm looking at it is I like, I like to use pieces of what people might know and incorporate it into something new, or at least do it in a way they haven't seen me do it yet. Like a lot of ideas I pitched in the past, you know, if I still think it's a good idea, it might be something I can do now.

So I don't know. I think it's a good chance for me to try some stuff and still have a little bit of familiar, my words today. Familiar moments or familiar visuals, but with something new as well. So kind of, you know, I keep using the word combination, but

I think it's just, I think I had so many different versions of myself in six years that I think it's just kind of like each era of my WB career, I kind of just am picking pieces of and like I think that's really what it is. I've picked pieces from each error and character

I've done and now I'm taking those and putting them into something new. So it's going to hopefully feel fresh but also familiar. I guess would be the best way to say that. What is this shirt? This is, um, so it's a bunch of like bugs and it looks like a bray, Wyatt moth. It kind of does. I believe there, yeah, there are some moths on here. Um, so this is a shirt from a brand called Dixon. They make a lot of shirts and flannels and stuff. Showrooms located in Phoenix, Arizona, big fan. But they've been great to me.

I have a lot of their clothes. But this one was a Friday the 13th release. Oh, okay. This past, I forget what month that was, whenever the last Friday of 13th was. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of their clothes. That's a cool shirt. Yeah, it's a good shirt.

I was just like wandering the whole time. I'm like, we got all these little bugs on here. A little bugs and the moths on there. Well, Joe, I'm so excited to see what's next for you. I appreciate that. I'm so glad we finally got the chance to meet. Yeah, me too. It's our first meeting.

This is great. I'm going to ask you the question I ask everybody at the end of every episode. Okay. Because gratitude's a massive thing for me, a huge focal point of my life, focusing on the things that you have. So every morning I wake up, I say out loud, three things I'm grateful for. I do it before I go to sleep. as well with my wife.

What are three things right now, Joe, that you're grateful for? Number one, my wife. You know, we met very early on when I was a warehouse guy. And she stuck with me through all this craziness. And she's still here. So definitely number one, my wife. Number two, I guess, like my health. I don't know if that sounds cheesy.

That's a pretty important thing. Yeah, I mean, you know, I could be, I could be where I am and not healthy. So that's, you know, that's good. Especially with the profession you've chosen. Absolutely. Yeah. And I don't know. I guess I'm grateful for all the support I've gotten after leaving the company.

Like, the support's been crazy, friends, family, the Wyatt fan base. Like, you know, even people still at the company, people from other places, everyone's been very supportive and it's been eye-opening and I don't know. It's been good. And I think that definitely had a hand in helping me feel better about the situation early on. Are there any appearances in August and beyond that you want to plug that people can come see you guys at? Yeah. I mean, I know we're going to be doing Russell Con. That's the beginning of August. Yeah, that's in Minneapolis, right? Minneapolis, SummerSlam weekend. The whole group will be there for that one. That's big. I do have a lot coming up in August.

I'm trying to think of something specific. I do have a show called Blitzkrieg wrestling. I'll be wrestling former Javier Bernal from NXT, Quirk Havi. And I believe I will be traveling. Yeah, I'll be traveling over to England to do a show out there. And I have one in Toronto, actually, for a, I believe it's a charity event for, help with Palestine. And then

there is another charity event. I'm trying to remember the August dates. There's a cancer charity event I'm doing in Canada as well for a company called C4. So people can go to your Instagram to find all this? My Instagram, I'm just Joe underscore Gacy for now. That might have to change soon.

But we'll look into that. But yeah, I mean, I'll be posting, you know, all my dates. in my schedule and, you know, feel free to come, come see me if you're out there. Thanks again, Joe. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. The Dan Bonino Show.

Folks, it's not my job to sit here and, like, try to stir you up for clicks. I think I've been very level-headed. I've had to tell people a lot of things they didn't want to hear. So let me tie together into a bullet point storyline. This information warfare against your mind is very real. Be careful where you're getting your information. Do not gaff this off telling you, like, this. is why I've been so passionate. This stuff is real. Now does it make sense? The Dan Vonjino show.

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