Insight with Chris Van Vliet - John Cena On His Heel Turn, Farewell Tour, The Rock, Fav Matches, 17th Championship, Brock Lesnar

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

John Cena (@JohnCena) is a professional wrestler and actor signed to WWE. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet at West Coast Creative Studio in Hollywood, CA to discuss the last match of his legendary career, planning his Farewell Tour for 3 years, turning heel and the criticism from fans, what winning a 17th WWE Championship meant to him, becoming the Intercontinental Champion, why his match with Brock Lesnar at Wrestlepalooza was so short, his love letter to wrestling with his match against AJ Styles, wrestling Dominik Mysterio in 3 of his last 4 matches, who he feels is his wrestling soulmate, and more!   Please support our sponsors!   PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/?ref=tibcloux FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFFSTASH: Go to https://get.stash.com/INSIGHTto see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures   SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV2025 Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount   NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup!  TIMELINE: Go to https://timeline.com/insightto get 10% off your order of Mitopure!   VUORI: Get 20% off your first purchase! Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at https://vuori.com/cvv   ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and reach your financial goals faster: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/CVVand use the code CVV to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF   ZOCDOC: Instantly book a top-rated doctor today at https://zocdoc.com/insight   BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv   BLUECHEW: Get your first month of BlueChew for free with the code CVV at https://bluechew.com   For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Flee! Thank you so much for coming in here. We meet again. We meet again. What a year this has been. Right? Yeah. It's almost up.

It's almost up. The year ends for me on December 13th, which is weird because that's like the inverse of the 31st. Oh. Ah, the number junkies out there. That's the end of my calendar here. Are you able to put into words how you're feeling going in this last match? Great.

truly great. We've been able to put programming that's held the attention of folks out there for a year, been able to leverage individual intellectual property and create attention through things like the time is now tournament, stuff like that's important. Even when you can't be there, you're kind of helping get eyes on the product. Gosh, I'm super excited about the 13th because they bought what I sold them. I would love for it to be rather than just a tribute show. I want it to be a look ahead.

And, you know, I'll have my last in-ring performance. That is for certain. I'm not doing anything after that. But in doing so in the night, too, we're going to get big WW superstars so they can say they were on the card in non-canon exhibition matches against the best and brightest we got an NXT. So gosh, what a way to go out. What a way to go out. Using those few hours that Peacock has given us in Netflix internationally to be able to say goodbye to a chapter in my life that's very important.

And in doing so, hopefully get eyes on what could be the next two-decade run or maybe give somebody that boot in the butt that like, yo, this is what the noise sounds like. You know, like I'm really, really happy, man. I feel, I feel great. Have you put a lot of thought into that final match and what that match is going to look like? I don't know who I'm facing, so not really. I think the most important thing is to just whatever,

get opponent, do a brief, why are we fighting? And it's a very short build. So you have the finals, what, Monday on Raw, which, gosh, we're like a, we're a week away there. So you don't really have a bunch of promos and all that. So you got to define your why very quickly. And hopefully, I mean, we might even have to define our why in action. Well, it feels like the why is retiring the greatest of all time. Again, that might be my why because it's my retirement match.

You're not to retire the greatest. You're retiring yourself? So I don't know. I don't know. And that's, again, knee-jerk. That's what you went to, which is great because that's a believable why. But whether Gunther or L.A. Knight has another thing about like, hey, man, this happened between us, and this is how I feel. I've always been jealous of you, or I've always looked down on you, or I've always looked up at you and you ruined my dreams. Or even if we don't use any of that stuff and can't and don't have time to, that's an important. a piece of the foundation when you start to think about like, hey, what is, what does our time look like? And what does our story in the ring look like? I think when you can define that, it helps put the dominoes in line. This is the first farewell tour WWE's ever done. Yeah, right. And you said they bought what you sold them. How did you pitch this to them? That we have two options. At 48, I feel I can complete.

Pete using magic hocus pocus and all the tricks and wisdom I have, but the pace of the product has passed me by. And I either post, I'm done, which is a post, or I can pump the brakes on all other activities for the year and dedicate this to being the last year. And I know it hasn't been done, but this is what I think could possibly happen. creatively, I'm allowing you to do whatever you want. I just want to try to use whatever energy I have to pass on and hopefully give audiences memorable moments. And I think I don't know if people will understand it right away

because no wrestler ever retires. I'll be the first. But it's been great to see audiences get it. And audiences understand. So now each show, like to be on these shows, is something special. And we've had great moments come out of these shows. And we're not saying I'm the sole driving force behind it,

but a lot of people are showing up to be like, man, this is the last time I can see John. And then the shows have been great enough to be like, yeah, but I want to watch them fight too. So, like, man, I'm very happy they bought it. And I think I would say everyone internally is happy, and I would say everyone externally has an opinion. about it, which is good. I don't think out there, here we are in November, or here we are

on early December looking forward to the 13th. I don't think there is apathy out there. I know some people are critical of it. Some people may be upset. Some people may be overjoyed, but there isn't apathy. And I think that means we did okay. How do you feel about that criticism? That's part of what we do. That is absolutely part of what we do. I love it because it's vocal and it starts conversation. Our business, that's the thing. I've been part of this live criticism pit since

WrestleMania Triple H or fighting Kurt Angle. You know, like that's what people don't understand. Like, I am criticized all the time. But it's got to be difficult when the John Cena character is being criticized. Yeah. But your name is also John Cena. So how do you not,

how do you realize they're criticizing the character or the booking of it and not you? When the comments are like, John Cena did this in the ring and was stupid, or I would have liked to see the John Cena character go down this path is far different than, man, I got to spend a day with John and he was a dick. That's real. I don't feel like people say that.

But if they do, and that's why I'm always open to other opinions. Gosh, I don't have perfect days all the time. Some of the days my patience are short, and I got to try to make the best out of the day, so you might catch me on a bad one or an imperfect moment. And gosh, I like hearing that because I really try to work hard

to be as aware and empathetic as I can, but again, I'm human. I don't mind hearing, yo, God, I don't want to blow them up. I will choose my, I'll choose my words carefully. You want to make up a name? No, I'll just try to paint a generic scenario. Okay. A WWE performer had the courage to bring me aside and say, hey, a long time ago we met, and the meeting wasn't good.

And I offered an olive branch, and essentially you told me to kick rocks. But then, it was like a very short meeting. But then I got to know you and got to work with you for extended periods of time and saw that your character, the foundation of your character and how you operate in your day-to-day, was not that moment. I'm grateful that my vision of you was not defined by that moment because for years it was. And I thanked him so much for having the courage to share that. and what a what a reminder of like man if if that's all you have that's your perception of me so it's just a a great reminder man like even when you're especially when you're slim on

patients just try to lean into kindness and you can't be perfect but but try and that was really cool to be like hey for years i thought of you as this because of two seconds we spent together and then i got to find out there's a little bit more to you than that so to go back to your question of, how do you feel about the criticism? That's why people watch the show. There's not a lot of folks to watch the show and just be like, job well done.

Post. That's going to give me a bunch of likes. You know, I get, especially nowadays is where people may not even feel these things, but they know it gets them gravity. I love the fact that, like, people want to play boss and want to choose your own adventure for your character.

It adds to the conversation. But man, the best I can do and what I can control is I'm told what the path is. And then I kindly ask if like, okay, can I put this together myself? They say, you sure can. As long as you want to do this and you want to work with this person and you don't change the finish. All right. Cool. Right on.

You announced your retirement tour at Money in the Bank, 2024 in Toronto. Yeah. How much planning had gone into that announcement. And how were you already setting aside your schedule? About another year and a half. So like the whole thing was like three years. No way. Yeah.

So you started thinking about this retirement tour in 2022? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So by then I knew I had a lot of opportunities with, um, outside of, of WWE. And those are very difficult to balance, not just being everywhere. Like the first half of this year for the tour, I was flying back and forth to Budapest and Morocco making PLE dates and, man, I literally left into it the day I announced the Jan 6.

I left to land and booty past to shoot the next day. That's a scheduling thing. The biggest hurdle to climb is insurance. And insurance is super pricey. Like every date, the cost goes up, whether it be $500,000, a million five. Because you're in the ring, you could get hurt. Because you're doing a pit. picture and you're being like, hey, I have Saturday off. That's the thing a lot of folks don't

understand. It's like, but you have the weekends off. You can do this. Or like they can, they can shoot Tuesday through Saturday if they want. You can do every Monday. You're right. But the liability of, hey, I'm doing this action movie and then I'm going to go do, albeit choreographed action, but with a high variable that I could get hurt. If I get hurt, I can't come back to shoot. Or like, if I get my nose broke or if I get a bowed, black eye or something. Like, we've already captured these moments on camera, and now I got to stop down and wait for the thing to heal before I can shoot another frame. So that's something that I had to learn the hard way of like, my schedule's open. I can do it. It's an insurance thing. And this

is what it costs. So trying to get a studio to leverage that to let you go play stuntman is impossible. So you got a lot of times you got to come out of pocket. And that's a tough balance. You came out of pocket to pay for the insurance to cover some of this? There are ways to get everyone to play nice and a great way to start a diplomatic conversation is saying, I will invest. Okay. So whether it's 100% of the cost or a fraction of the cost or like, hey, can you help us out? Can TKO?

Can you help us out? And I'll chip in. Like, there's a lot of ways to be diplomatic. And when you want to do something and you don't, when the, it's not. purely about financial gain. And with this year, it was like, I thought I was going to take the whole year off for WWE. But then when they said, I only need you for 36,

a few opportunities came up. And I was like, okay, if I do the opportunities, I'm going to be on the hook for insurance. Insurance is this. So I knew what I was signing up for. This will travel a long way, thanks for your patience. Three years ago, I started getting these opportunities. And so I'm like filming three,

maybe sometimes squeezing in four movies. a year, I'm on set all the time, which means I can't make any dates. And then I know my year in advance, these things going to pre-production earlier, so you know kind of what you're doing the next year. And then it's like 22 booked, 23 booked, 24 looks pretty busy. Okay, in 22, what if we outlined 25? Why do you want to do that? Because I won't be able to physically do it past 48. So in 2022, we kind of laid the groundwork for the idea of this. And then in early 23, we pitched TKO. I say we.

It's me and one of my best friends, Dan Bamuuk is kind of my right hand. I can stick the area, I guess. And we pitched in the idea of a year, call it as you see it. And again, lead with diplomacy. I think it's worth this, but you can think it's worth whatever. please allow me to bet on myself. You want to run on incentive. Incentivized contract.

You want to do this. I want to do this. And I want to make everybody win. If you put down a buck, I want to give you back 10. And at the same time, I want to give everybody out there a run for their money. Like, we're really going to go for it. I won't. I will do my best not to suck.

I'm not just going to go do the five moves of doom. I think we can do something real special. And they bought it. But it also takes a while to put that through the engine. So as soon as they bought it in like mid early 23, now I'm like, okay, give me a list of all possible cities. I got out 60 cities put on my desk, merchandise, uniform for everybody. Because I know you got out that takes like nine months to clear IP design, to get in production, hats and wristbands take longer than T-shirts. Around when I announced in Toronto, 15 months out, we were like lasered in for everything.

So we had every city, every potential city. Cool thing about the uniforms is like they become awesome. And because we did so many, I actually, no kidding. I did 17 extras. And I'm trying to get fanatics to release the Never Seen 17. That's brilliant. 17 cities that like Houston's on there, Sacramento's on there. Keep name it city because people are going to be like,

I can't believe he didn't come to my city. There's a few. There's a few. And a few cool unies. But like we had to be from a prep standpoint ahead of the curve. because I, man, I've been in WWA a long time. I know as soon as creative changes like that. So I don't ever want to be caught from an admin standpoint,

not being able to like, oh, we can't make this because it wasn't in time. So we got way pre-prepped at Toronto. We were like laser focused to get in. And then starting Jan 6, man, it was off to the races. And boy, creative doth changed. Sometimes directions go different ways, but that's always the case, no matter where you are in a card,

whether you're top, middle, or bottom. I hear a lot of performance being like, man, they told me this, and then it changed. Yeah, you shouldn't look at that with like angst or anger. Like, that is the nature of what we do. Did you have a framework in January

for what you thought the year might look like? You say things change. You always, the thing is, there's always a framework. So yes, did it change a lot? Yes. And was it always? in the cards to turn heel?

No. No. That stuff you see on Unreal is real. Like, we need to make chamber big. So let's do something that'll shock everybody. Hey, man, we got this idea. No problem. No problem.

I'll do the best I can with it. Were you excited about it? I'm excited about everything. Like, I like the riddle. You see my stuff. I'm not exactly the most gifted athletic performer. I give you all I got. And I will say, you keep saying,

I don't think, no, if I could do this after 48, some of your matches this year are some of the best matches you've ever done in your career. Yes, and that's because I know that's all I got left. Stop. No, I'm serious. Like, a person we were talking about off-camera, AJ Styles, we're such a great dude. I got to talk to him a little bit while we were locked in our program this year.

And I'm like, man, AJ, there's a lot of people who really admire you out there. I know you're thinking of calling it quits soon. Do you think that there's any. possibility you would try to do something like this because I honestly think people would pay to see you one last time. Yeah. He's literally tying his shoes. He turns to me and goes, man, I'm 48. And as soon as like the words left his mouth, he didn't have to say anything else. It's like something about that late 40s, man, where he's like, I'm already, I'm already overstaying my physical welcome. They just don't see it because they don't see what goes into prep, cool down, recovery.

I'm already riding that razor's edge. It doesn't, you can't tell. He still looks great, still does some great stuff. But he can't stay another second because he doesn't want to put out a product that isn't AJ Styles. And the same goes for me. Like, yeah, this is why I'm going, because I can still give you what you want. I don't want to walk away when I can't.

When people are like, man, I wish you'd have gone two years ago. We got one date left and we've done some. entertaining stuff this year. And in doing so, I've used every effing trick I got in the book, but we made it. You know what I'm saying? So like, mission accomplished. But when AJ said, like, you know, I'm 48, I can't. This is the date I have in my mind. He told me in the interview, he will not wrestle past his 50th birthday. I'm not going to make it past 48, 48. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Timeline. Have you tried all the health trends, but you're still feeling tired, foggy, or off your game. You're not alone, my friend. It's time to go deeper.

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I know. The heel run, I think, is. different from the heel turn. Yeah, yeah. How did you feel about the heel turn that night in Toronto, Elimination Chamber, and then the months that we saw after that? So if you, again, this is just my perspective. What I like is people are talking about it.

And the cool thing is people who aren't, people who are critical of it, apparently had some idea in their head about what they wanted, which is great because that means you're attached. That means you care. I enjoy that and I hear that criticism. When we did it, we did it as a big moment, but with a purpose, hey, this is going to ignite something with you and Cody. It's going to start in February and end in August. Because you only have 36 broadcasts and Intuit and Rumble are gone. So now we're down to 34. And then we need some on the back end with you actually being a good guy. So let's take it down to 24.

We kind of have to tell a story that should be two years long, 52 weeks a year plus 14 to 18 PLEs. We got to do it in like 20 episodes of television. Okay. So it took my focus on Cody, on the championship, and on frustrations that I've had genuine. It all comes from a genuine place, things I could say. I'm so happy to say that I wouldn't retread the course because I gave everything I had.

My poor wife, I'd wake up in the middle of night writing promo lines and thinking about spots and stuff. The opponents I had were great, but I remember everyone talking in February and be like, yes, this is how things change. Yes, this is a good plan. Okay, guys, if I, I'm going to ruin this thing, like, I'm going to, I'm going to wrestle methodically.

Like, I have an idea of what ruining wrestling is. I'm going to ruin it. Yeah. What does ruin wrestling mean to you? Taking the fun away from the fan. If I'm an advocate of like, we can't do this without you, and then I finally realized, like, man, you guys are kind of abusive and I'm a victim, I'm going to take the thing that matters most to you away. So I'm going to take the most coveted spot of the program, the main event spot, and a chase for the most coveted prize, and suck and make it painful for you to sit through. Are you saying you were sucking on purpose? I'm saying the style was the way it was because of the goal to ruin it, to take the championship home.

if you if your lights out doing triple flips and crazy kicks and crazy spots and you take it home, people would be like, yeah, he earned it. I wanted to flip it, of course, because I was never going to reach the goal, but also knowing that I have to carry a story with Cody and he has something to save. Guys, I don't want this. I want the fun stuff. Remember the fun we used to have? I want the fun.

And he can tell me as his opponent, hey, dude, we want the fun. Hey, dude, we want the fun back. And I know this isn't you. So amazingly enough, what I love about how things change, and this is literally the first time I've talked about this because I never wanted to reflect on it while it's going, but I got one left, so we're good. The fans changed me.

Like, you go to the Cody match at WrestleMania, which is where I debut a more methodical style. You were getting cheered? It was very tough. Yeah. And then you lean into like only so many dates left. I'm taking this thing home. I'm a victim of an abusive relationship.

All of the things that are like, I'm going to remove the fun from wrestling. You can't ignore the noise. But I'm also out there to do it. I was told for years to be a good guy while the noise in the arena said otherwise. Paul, head of creative, was like, hey, listen, we're not going to ignore the noise.

We want you to have more thrilling matches. So we want you to change the way that you see all this and start to be a little more exciting. Flash forward to the next guy I got to Randy. What a program that was. A couple great promos, his RKO after Vegas. We gave him home field advantage. I really loved that match.

Everybody happy. They see WrestleMania like, what the F? And then they see, all right, yeah, all right, cool, cool. And then the next guy gets punk. And then the same thing. gosh, one of the, one of the moments in sports entertainments as larger than sports entertainment is Phil Brooks going to Saudi Arabia. That has you made me cry.

Like, awesome, awesome. Accountability, vulnerability, apology, forgiveness. Man, culture's melding into each other. And then he comes out and does my gimmick. Like, how do you follow what I did? He came up with this crazy idea. I'm like, dude, you have to do that. And he crushed it.

He absolutely just crushed it. And what a trip for him. Like redemption, acceptance, and night. You can go there wherever he wants, and he can entertain fans who are incredible over there. When we started early on, they didn't know what was going on. Now, they're loud, and they pack that place. And it's a great place to perform.

And they welcome him, and he welcomes them. And that's super cool. And then after punk, you got Logan, Sammy, Cody. Like, so. I love that you remember all these in order, too. But it's, it's people we get hung up on these moments, and I'm not saying don't be critical. But when I look back at it, I see like, all right, pivot, we tried this. They were brave enough to allow me to try something, something bold.

They were also brave enough to say it's not working. And I was accountable enough to be like, all right, what would you want? I think what people are focused on is who else? was in the ring and elimination chamber, right? You turned heel with the Rock and Travis Scott. Sure. What was the original plan for the involvement of Rock and Travis Scott? This is this is where like who cares. Like it doesn't matter. We can talk about what could have been until the cows come home. And I think that's what's great about the people who were left standing. It's certainly me and Cody. Changed. What's the change? This. All right, let's go. I don't dwell for one. second on what could have been.

Because what could have been is Brock doesn't leave for the NFL and there's no John Cena. Like, you know what I mean? Like, could there have been a match with Rock this year? Man, could there be anything? That's the thing. Was that a plan? That's what sucks about what could have been. It's not what is.

So I think a lot of- Was that ever talked about? You and- I don't care. Like, first of all, that's, that doesn't, I'm always the last to know. It doesn't trickle down to me. if you watch Unreal, like that process is genuine. I talk to Rock, and then I talk to this.

The last guy I got to call is John. I'm usually the last guy they call because I'm the easiest. Yeah, let's do it. No problem. I'm in. So I don't sweat the, and, you know, we don't have those guys anymore. Cool, what do you want to do? We would like to do this.

We need you to start being more competitive. We want to put you in these matches. We were going to build to this. That's over. I didn't even get that. Okay, fine. Great. Where are we doing now?

that's what's tough. And I think a lot of, it's great to talk about. It gives good argument, gives good perspective of like, how do they book this stuff? A lot of that stuff's beyond control of even the people who own the sandbox. If I decide to walk, you know, I have contractual obligations, but they, I'm not going to be there on the 13th. Like, if I decide that, you know, and they'll figure it out. Like, I saw Austin get fired. You know what I'm saying?

I saw Brock leave. I saw, you know, Dwayne take his break. And I don't sweat any of those guys for what they did. Austin was worn out. Brock was probably going to assault somebody in an airport. And Dwayne had such great opportunities. I don't fall people for being like, I can't do this right now. McAfee, being burned out behind the booth.

You guys got so many opportunities. Dude, you've got to just focus on what you can do well. I don't sweat them for that. But like, shit changes. open opportunity income way better. And I love listening to that guy on TV. Not that I didn't love Pat, but I really like listening to this too. It's fantastic.

So I don't really sweat, like, but could there have been? That's why I don't choose my opponents. Like, I don't, you didn't choose a single opponent this year? The only thing I wanted to do, the only idea I gave was about Saturday night's main event on the 13th saying it should not be a John Cena show. if everybody's saying you're going out in your own terms or just BS because I want to do it forever. Okay, you have an idea of like, this is how I want John to go out. You do. You do. You do.

I have an idea of how I want to go out and how I want to go out. It's not by folks remembering what I did. I want a chance to perform and do some good. You want to sprinkle in moments and memories to understand and make that last match more meaningful, fine. But let's use the rest of our two hours and show the future of the business. That's how I want to go out. Because when I came in, there was a gold medalist who's like, I'll work with the kid. And to be on a sold out show in Chicago and hear that noise, I was already hooked, but like, that's it. I want to give NXT kids a chance to be there.

And I want to give major WWE superstars a chance to be on the card. It's a limited thing. It's not WrestleMania. This is only limited spots. But that's how I want to go out. And there'll be people to criticize that of like, man, my theory or my perspective was if you do a whole show on John, two things can happen. Too much, not enough. No one's ever going to be like, nailed it. You can't please everybody.

So the person whose last match it is, I was like, Triple H, I think this is a good idea. Because we're going to have a lot of eyes on Peacock. The 13th is going to be one of those moments that, like, it might float beyond our sphere. You know, media might pick it up. I think people will be into it. Let's show what we got coming up, man. And let's give the live audience. Let's not just make it NXT matches.

Let's get the live audience a chance to hear Cody's music or Becky's music or whomever you want. And then match them up with a non-canon exhibition. Storyline starts and ends that night. it is a chance to put your business card down, to be either like, I am ready for the big time or I'm not ready for the big time. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So, like, that's, that's how I want to, that's how I want to end it. And that's the only thing that I've ever pitched. It wasn't like, I got to wrestle this guy. I got to do it in this city. No, no, let's just use the time to put forth to the future of the business.

When we sat down last time, you detailed what your heel turn might have looked like if you did it before, rock scene a one. You said new music, a singlet, this time around, and you even cut a promo about it, you said, you guys get nothing. Yeah. What was the idea behind keeping your theme music the same? The Titan trumpet black was brilliant.

But what was the idea behind the look of your heel run? So I think it's a lot. Again, I'm trying to hit people where they feel it the most. And a lot of the, I want, I want me to be a bad guy was not, they want to see me be like, not that I'm a bad guy, they just want to see me play the character. And that's like, I want change. I want this. Oh, man, we get Healsina, which means we get a whole new dynamic of stuff.

No, you don't. Because I'm being a bad guy. A bad guy gives you. nothing. You have earned nothing. I'm, I just turned my back on somebody that I thought or a body of people that I thought was the most important thing in my life. And I have the epiphany that it's abusive. I'm not going to give you anything else. This is how I dress. This is how I act. I'm wearing your city because I'm, I am the version of your citizenship that you wish you were. Things like that. walk to the ring instead of an enthusiastic run. And then you have to, again, flow into the

chemistry of like, we might have to flip the pancake in three months. So if you go ahead and produce new music and if you produce a new look, in my perspective, from the things I've seen, it takes two to five years to get a guy over. Once that guy's over, if you do a drastic shift in their personality, that takes a year or two on television, again, I don't have that time. So what's within my control and what is the best? bet to do with what I got. I think, and this will forever be debated, and this is a good headline because they'll start talking about it immediately and everyone will have an answer for it, but it was my thought that we don't have enough time and it will be far more confusing to the audience if we

change everything, because then we have to change it back to hear Hogan do the NWO theme song for a decade and then come back to Real American. Okay, right. Right on. Excellent. That's enough time. 20 shows is less than that. It's tough. It's tough.

And I didn't want to confuse the audience. And again, in the moment, you might think that, and even post when you're, you still might think, you're entitled to feel how you want. But if you're wanting something, and I'm not giving it to you,

aren't I being a dick? But then what a moment at SummerSlam. When we go from the Black Titans, on to the colors, you run to the ring. Like it was such a great moment. It's a big reminder of like when you don't have something, that's when you miss it the most. And I also think like, again, there's a lot of details out there that people should

never know about all the inside baseball stuff of like, man, I think it's confusing. We don't have enough time. What is the real goal of this? And the goal was by the end, let's have everybody feeling good. Okay. How do we do that in a lot? in the strongest way we can, sending the best message. And again, I'm just trying my best.

You know, and it's okay, like, it's okay to fail. It's okay to be like, you missed it. But I tried. I gave you all I got. Like, for me to dig deep and try to figure all that minutia out of, like, how would I walk? I wear the belt backwards because I don't want to show my face. Like, I put the towel over my back to remind people that I'm out. Like, I'm taking the belt out.

little things like that of like, no, he's just wearing the belt? No, it's all by design. But you never need to know that. The introduction, which I ended up keeping because it was a fun bit, but like just something like that of demanding to be

the things that I now think I deserve, which I don't even use that word, my vocabulary. That's the best effort I have. And it's okay to miss, but boy, was I trying. You know, I don't don't know. What I, what I can say from an analytical standpoint is people are still interested because they're still watching, they're still showing up, and they're still real vocal. So I think

in that aspect of those metrics of like, did we do good? Gosh, I'm very happy with the year so far. What did winning the 17th championship at WrestleMania? What did that mean to you? Not John Cena, the wrestler. What did it mean to you, the man? I think I want to choose my words carefully. I have been apprehensive for quite some time for that because I love Rick. It's super mentor to me. Always been a great guy to me and I love him. I meant what I said in the press conference at Rumble.

And this is another thing. Like, I never wasted a second. We want you to do the press conference. How do I make these moments meaningful? I want to win 17 so I can shake the hand of the performer that wins 18. So what it meant to me personally was like, hey, youngens, it's one of them is going to be you, or you better get working because I don't want to be in the ground when 18 happens. I want to shake somebody's hand.

And something that's impossible is now possible. So like that's what it means to me of hopefully by my actions, this is possible. And holy hell, this guy wants to shake my hand when I pass it. And I think that's, I can't wait to do that. How much did winning the Intercontinental Championship at some point this year, how much, how important was that to you? Personally, I got a chance to like, really go on kind of a

I guess a PR tour I left the garden and do two days in Liverpool and then we did some stuff in fanatics before the PLE it means a lot to fans I think it certainly certainly works well on a business card

but I ain't wrestling anywhere so I don't need the hey this is my resume maybe I'd be hired anywhere maybe I can get a match it is hard to believe you hadn't want it before So, again, I'm just trying to choose my words carefully. What is special about that is I was able to work with Dom Mysterio three of my last four matches. And gosh, that was really special.

And honestly, the most special thing about winning it was being able to lose it how I did. That was really cool. And it made, like, I got to experiment. with the U.S. title and create an open challenge. And before that, I got to experiment with the U.S. title and turned it into a spinner belt. Twice, I was given what we and the company view as a secondary achievement

and was relentless in making it a primary objective. The guy on his way out, I said something in passing. I'm like, yeah, that's just that late icy title run, just like Stone Cold Hat, you don't touch that stuff at the end. You're a champion. You're of this pedigree. you don't mess around with secondary objectives. In Boston, I made it mean something.

And it did. It's a nice win. Yeah, in your hometown. And then the person who had it before me certainly gave value to it, but then him beating me again for it and now having it gives him even more value. What a star making moment for Dom in Boston, standing toe to toe with you, not flinching. But for a and for what we consider a secondary objective. Any time you can take something that isn't the most coveted prize,

that isn't the leather and gold that all of us chase, and you can get everybody to look at that, just for a split moment, that's the significance to me of like, well, what did it mean to win the Interconnell Championship? It means for a hot second, we just, we gave it a boost. And I think it still has that boost. And Dom has been doing a great job giving it that boost.

But it was a nice little extra kick in the butt and a good use of like three appearances. You know, I know in my mind, again, this is going to be argumentative. Everybody's going to say what they want. They haven't wasted many. You know, people can say, I would rather see a matchup of this person or that.

I believe every time my feet have hit the canvas, we've done so with meaning and with purpose. And yeah, the creative changes and all that. but man, gosh, we've had some pretty entertaining moments. When you talk about going into a match with a Y, walk me through this match with Brock Leser, which lasted, I think, like eight minutes. Yeah.

What was the reasoning behind that match being so quick? Well, I guess quick as perspective, because my frame didn't feel like it was going fast enough. You took a lot of F5s. But quick relative to the other matches you've worked this year. Sure. again, I love the public's ability to weigh in. You have this guy who's returning,

who absolutely looks like he has an age of today, moves like it. He can split his pants and still move like a ballerina. He can slip on his pyro and do a ninja roll and be okay. That look cool doing it. He's a beast. It's his first time back. I've been in this seat before.

It's like I'm always in the seat when Brock comes back. Rock after Miami, who's the next guy, you know, SummerSlam with Roman, here he comes again, after he beats Take Her for the streak. I've sat in this seat before. You have to figure out who gets the shine that night. And if in his return, again, only my perspective, this attraction where we are going to build until he goes into the sunset, which is, I think, in Minnesota, or creatively it's very soon. to create a mountain to climb for someone, you have to build the mountain.

And I'm on my way out. That's not like it's going to hurt me, but I'm a viable commodity. And it's a great main event. See these two Titans for the last time. And it's okay. Sometimes your team gets blown out. We were first on the program.

I did the best I could. We all did the best we could to make it a competitive fight into the middle. People forget, like, I was in that arena. When Brock fell down for the first time on the shoulder tackle, and then I gave, you know, I were able to give them all the stuff. Like, they were, they were into it.

And then just a bunch of gratuitous F-5s. That's how you build Rock. Was the idea just like, he has your number, you know? No, the idea is he can't get one over on him. No, I think the idea is he's Brock Lesnar. That's the idea. So when the night is about Brock, I don't swim upstream because there's been nights that have been about me. And there have been nights where it's about a love letter to wrestling, AJ Stiles.

That's what the night's about. This night was about, yo, we're bringing this guy back. We got to get him out of the shoot and we got to let everyone know he means business. It's not, Russell Paloosa was not the end of his story nor mine. It's the beginning of his story. And it's the middle. It's the beginning of the third act for me. And quite honestly,

so now, like, now we have a chance to look at this, right? Yeah. This is so fun. You, you bring Brock back at Russell. We want,

I think we went as long as we possibly could while building what we wanted out of Brock. You could only take so much punishment. And it was uncomfortable. And people were like, what the F? Why is this happening? I want to say,

see John with this. I asked them, hey, after Brock, I don't know what's going on. Who do I have next? They said, we're going with you and AJ. I said, I don't have any TVs or anything. How are we going to do this? So it's like, oh, we're going to just do something on TV. I said, wait a second. Give me two hours to think of something. I said, what if I put it out to the universe? Hey, guys, Cina Stiles. What do you think? Everybody's like, please? Yeah, especially after that, please. AJ, you hear all this? Better yet, Hunter, do you hear it? Not Adam Pierce?

Hey, guy who really, you know, no offense to Adam, but like guy who can make a match. You hear this? Yeah, we hear it. All right, make it. And then you arrive in Perth, and you feel it's a different vibe. So here's, here is my thing.

Like, SummerSlam, Sina Cody doesn't happen without WrestleMania, Sina Cody. AJ, Sina isn't as beautiful and poetic as it is if we don't have Sina Brock. Like, you have to feel upset. You have to go through lows to get the fruit of it. You know what I'm saying? And man, when AJ and I got together

and talked about our why, it literally was like, man, it's just two guys at the end who want to just go at it one more time. And then it became like, really close to the event. It became like, what if you pay homage to everybody in TNA and I pay homage to everybody in WWE?

Because I kind of started doing that with Logan and I don't want to get caught in that trap. So I'm just going to do it now and not ever do it again. Are you cool with that? He's like, yeah, can you take all those moves? I'll figure it out. We'll figure out what we can do.

And then you have this, you got to go, you got to crawl through shit to come out clean on the other side sometimes. What a beautiful moment. when you did Sister Abigail. Man. And like, just the arena being all yellow, but not booing AJ and him not knowing about the intro.

Like. Oh, that was a surprise for AJ? Dude, I just wanted to do something nice for my guy. Wow. And I didn't even show Alicia until I handed her the paper. No way. So, like, you don't get those moments unless you get the shit beat out. So what went into that intro that you came up with for AJ?

I just wanted to do something special. And again, a nice exercise in like, I went about it the wrong way. I went into business firm myself. I should have gotten permission to do that. And I would have gotten permission to do that. But I told knowing about it because I wanted to do something special.

And in doing so, the people running the show felt surprised. And that's not a position I ever want to put them in because they award me such creative liberty. So I can't believe I can't imagine anyone had a problem with that that was what a wonderful moment that was wonderful moment But like we're all trying to make these moments special and we're all on the same team and it shouldn't be me Doing something outside that realm if I tell my teammates Hey let's do it I can keep it from AJ I can keep it from Alicia But if I tell my teammates who are crafting this show maybe they make it look better

And the the first thing I did was thank AJ the second thing I did was pull a few creative individuals aside and say, I'm sorry, that will never happen again. I know where I fucked up. I'm so sorry. And I went into business for myself. That's not me. I hope you look at my body of work and all the times I've asked for permission. And this is the one time I asked for forgiveness. It got the best of me. But I wanted to do something nice for AJ. That match was just pure fun. Like it looked like you and Adrian. We're having so much fun. I just want to, you get that ball rolling. Like, You know, you do, all right, they're a waist in the heel turn at WrestleMania.

And they're like, oh, the randy thing was, and then the punk and then Cody and then, man, Logan and Paris was even kind of dope. And then you go to Brock. What are they going to do next? And then you get the payoff. Like they're all, we look at them all in individual moments. But it's why until now I have refused to give anyone any information about any of this. because I don't want to lead the witness.

Like, the last one is going to be the last one. Like, we have, we have told the story. Everybody knows the drill. Like, tournament to decide, this is going to be it. I want the last one. I want people to look at the road ahead, 26 and beyond. I want them to take away some superstars name from the 13th. But now we can reflect on the year.

We get caught up in these moments thinking that's all you get and not realizing that, like, this is, the commercial spot before the reveal before the big finish. Like, we've just had to digest it as it has been a year storyline. And reflecting back on it, I get excited. And I, like, again, I don't feel I could have given anything else. So I'm very happy with how it's constantly. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money.

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prescription required see website for full details, restrictions and important safety information you wrestled more times this year more matches this year than you have since 2018 yeah how does your body feel awful it's tired

tired so I'll actually go through the numbers here so 18 it'll be 18 matches this year which is an interesting number because 36 dates, 18 matches. Like, that is perfect symmetry that half of your dates were matches. Half of your dates were setting up these matches. Yep. Was that done intentionally?

Gosh, it's beyond my favorite. You have to ask upwards. 2024, one match. 2023, 8, 22, 1? Yep. 2021, 16. Yep. 2020, one match with Bray Wyatt.

2019, eight matches. So this is the most matches you've worked. As you sit here right now, does something hurt on you? No, no. But like, it begins to take far longer to get ready and far longer to recover. And, you know, people watch the, you said yourself, like, man, you're moving around pretty good out there. You're moving great. Thank you.

You're moving like 2011 John Cena. Thanks so much. Do you feel like 2011 John Cena? In some cases, I feel better. In some cases, I feel different, you know? And I think the glaring difference is knowing that it's your last one, like your last year. And not that I was ever holding back, but like if there's ever a point not to hold back, it's certainly now. And oh, thanks, man.

Yeah, there you go. Knowing a confident why for all the matches, hey, and especially being told like, hey, from this point on, we need you to give her a little bit. We need you to get into it more. That whole heart punch idea you had is probably not going to work. Okay, let's go. You know, I think I can ride this out for, I think I got it, you know? How nervous are you when you're saying, at the start of the year, 36 dates. So people are buying tickets to see John Cena wrestle in their city for the last time.

How nervous are you that you could get injured? Pull a hamstring, blow out your MCL. That's a concern we have all the time. Sure. Just in my perspective, you don't think about it. Like, I don't really try stuff I haven't done before on TV. I don't debut stuff for the first time out there. So I think that helps knowing what you're capable,

knowing also what you're capable of. I've seen it firsthand a lot of performers get into age and think there is good ones as they once were. and again, I've leaned on what strength I have left. I've leaned on the wisdom I have and some of the tricks I've learned. But all the stuff I've done is within the realm of what I can do. You're seeing me do some stuff for the first time, but you're seeing it for the first time. I make sure to go through it a bunch so that I can bat a thousand out there. And if I can't, it's just out.

It's just out. Like it gets cut. So I just don't think about that. I try to set the performance up for success. And then if you dwell on getting injured, it's going to be all you think about in your mind's elsewhere and it's not in the moment. Do you have a favorite match,

not just from this year, but from your entire career? I mean that moment with punk and Saudi. That transcends wrestling dog. That's that to see cultures bridged, to see genuine forgiveness, Like, I'm watching that pre-show bawling. Like, it's a pre-show. Why do you mean so much to you?

Because, man, unfolding before our eyes is accountability and genuine forgiveness and, like, the bridging of cultural gaps. People who might not know a lot about each other, understand each other, getting along in harmony through this one thing that we dig wrestling. Like, what a global conduit to peace, excitement, happiness. There's like tribute to the troops has a strong place in my heart and certainly make a wish. But favorite moment, I'm just glad that I was his opponent so I could be attached to that moment. That pre-show dude, oh man, that is that is what we do. He made that trip knowing it was going to be uneasy and knowing he was, he was, he was, going to have to be accountable and just leaned in, man.

And like, in a moment, people were like, oh, I'm heard. Yes, I'm ready to forgive. Astonishing. Astonishing. And then to top it all off with like, I think we've bridged a gap here. And then for him to go out and smoke in the promo, like drop heat in gimmick. It was beautiful. He's the one that almost got me to break

because in between one of his lines, he said, I miss you already. And, man, I almost lost it right in front of him. It was, that's one of the best moments that I've been part of. Do you think about what your professional life looks like on December 14th when you wake up? No, I'll figure that out.

Like, it's all coming to a head here. And, like, there's a finish line, right? December 13th is, the finish line. It's closing the chapter of in-ring performance at WW. There are still people, by the way, that think you're going to wrestle next year at WrestleMania. So I love that.

And I don't knock them for that, right? Because this has never been done before. Wrestlers don't retire. So to be the first one, you're going to run into some skepticism. So to quote dumb and dumber, you're telling me there's a chance? There is no chance. There is no chance. It WrestleMania will come and go.

and I think that's when people will, unfortunately, so like, unfortunately the people who have an idea in their head that like, oh, it's not going away, might not get the closure they want on December 13th. And I urge everybody just to lean in. Whatever you want to yell at me, however you want to feel, December 13th on Peacock and Netflix International

is my last match in the ring, and you don't have to believe it, but WrestleMania's will come and go, and I will not be active. I am a suit and tie performer after the 13th, period. And if you don't want to believe that, that's fine. But if you rob yourself of your own closure, because you didn't get a chance to say goodbye

when I told you so, that's on you. That's not on me. I've given 15 months to everybody to say, like, we're winding this thing down. I don't want to, but I have to. And I can't change anybody's mind out there. People think about me what they're going to think. But they'll soon learn when April comes and goes,

and then the next April comes and goes, and then the next one, and the next one, the next one, December 13th is it. And a benefit about being able to exist for 23 years at a very high level, and one of the greatest companies in the world, is, man, I have been compensated fairly. And I have made only a few foolish decisions.

So you ask me what my professional life does, looks like on the 14th. I'm more concerned about what my life looks like. And if professional is an arm to that and I'm driven in purpose by work and by effort, that's fine. But I'm also okay with being driven in purpose and curiosity by life, by being a good husband, by mastering an instrument, or taking a long drive, or going to see the world because I've only seen arenas and airports. Is it a piano you're still playing?

You still mess around with it, but if I'm harmonica, you name it. Like, there's a whole world out there. And gosh, I've been like, I've been in it for a long time. And it's a tough business to like stop because you're not, we're not supposed to be here anyway. A fake fight. That's not even supposed to be a job. But it's been a long time.

So I'm ready to see what life looks like on the 14th, you know? Yeah. And I got a good balance. Those numbers you just brought up, starting at 18 and beyond, those have provided a good balance. They provided a way for me to know that I love wrestling with all my heart, but it is not who I am. It doesn't define me as a person. And you don't need to know that. And you out there, if you view me as a wrestler, and that's how you know me, if this is all how you know me, that's great because that got me where I am.

But I think it's important that I know that, you know that. just because I don't have this in my life. That's not, it's not all that I am. And that's, that is proof positive that I'm going to stay retired. A lot of folks, it's tough to turn off the switch. That's where they feel most at home. And they're at a huge loss without it. Tom Rinaldi once said, like, I heard a quote,

athletes die twice. They die when they stop playing sports and they die when they put you in the ground. That's the inability to face closure. I've been thinking about this for like at least three years. Like, I'm just ready to do life. And I'm ready for other people to just crush. And we got so many people. Like, we are stacked.

You know, you asked me, 2011, like, man, who you got on the bench? I don't know, man. We'll figure it out. Maybe some of these names will work. Now it's like, gosh, do we have enough spots for all these guys? Which is great. That's why we have more programming. And that's why all, like, our developmental system is now its own work.

breathing, living program territory. You know, we've adopted AAA. Like we're expanding. We're going for more. Like, it's because there's a lot of good folks out there. What's got to be tough about this last year, this last run is, you know there's only going to be X amount of matches, right? For you, it ended up being 18.

That means there can only be X amount of opponents. How hard is it knowing that there's people that you could have made magic with that you won't ever have a match with? Coulda is really difficult. I said, that's coulda. have been, should have been, hindsight is a difficult obstacle to navigate. I'm so grateful for what I got. You know, I got to be a competitor in a rumble. I got to be an elimination chamber. I got to work with DJ again. I got to work with Travis. I got to work with Cody. Randy,

AJ, punk, Sammy. Yes, Logan, Dom, all a judgment day. Whoever wins the tournament, there's, there's a lot to be grateful for. So after, such an episode to be like, man, I wish I had. What a, what a way to pee on an ice cream Sunday. You know, like, it's, I'm grateful for what I have. And I've, again, I've never chosen opponents. So like, I don't know what that's like. And I don't want that burden. Just because I think I can make music with somebody doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for the company. And I don't know what the right thing to do for the company is because I don't have all the information. I don't have the analytics. I don't have creative control. I don't have any of that

stuff. So for me to call out how I want to use my time from the sidelines is essentially bad business. And if my goal is to leave this place better than I found it, why the hell would I want to call my opponents? Just because selfishly, I think they'd be good matches for me to watch. This is a ring in Orlando. I can set up a phone and have the matches with the guys there just for me. You know? Like, I just, I don't look at it like that. I think you'll ever do that. after you're retired? No, it won't be the Rocky gimmick right there. And then they'll stop. No, it will not be that. No. I'm sure you've seen this photo before. Yes, I love this photo. That's you at the start of your wrestling journey. It is. And here you are sitting across from me

at the end of your wrestling journey. Yeah, yeah. How old are you there? Gosh, I got to be six to eight. And the cool thing about this is these are made with the old printer paper that had the seams. So you can see the electrical tape that holds the seam. of the paper together. Because we would crayon the belts, but I learned early that if you don't mess with the seams, the belts rip. So this is the, I believe,

the championship of the universe, the most coveted championship we had. Wow. And boy, thank you very much. Thank you. What a title. Yeah. What would this version of you at the end of your wrestling journey

say to that version of you at the start of your journey? So that's a common question, right? What would you, what would you say to your younger self? I don't know if I can ride with that perspective, because what if, even if the person doesn't look like me, what if a person interacts with this young man's life and says, hey, stick with it, you're going to do this one day. I'm glad I thought it wasn't a job,

because the imagination in this kid's face is real. And I always thought I could hit a home run to win the World Series. And then you get to an age where you're like, I don't know if my talent, strengths, and gifts are going to get me that far. But the imagination was there. The imagination is here. And I think maybe, just maybe, if a ghost of Christmas future interrupts this young man, regardless of who it looks like, and says, one day you're going to hold the real thing.

Maybe they work differently. Maybe they make different choices. Like back to the future. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know if I subscribe to like, what do you say? I think what the me now is happy for when I look at this picture is the imagination in that person's face. And like, I'm holding the fucking championship of the universe for real. And I've never lost that any time I've held a piece of leather and gold.

Whatever the trophy is, when you see me hold it up, I am holding it for real. And I believe. And I wholeheartedly am authentic. if you think we booked it wrong or if you didn't get along with it or if you criticize it, I ain't phoning in and in. Every single thing I do is with whole of heart. And I think that's the common thread between this guy now and then that kid there. When we look at your entire career, and please do not be modest for just one minute here,

what do you think has been the one thing that has allowed you to have the success you've had? I have thought about life a lot. I'm super lucky. I know that. So luck, absolute luck, luck, luck. But it's very difficult to nail down an answer, right? Because it could be tons of things.

There's so much unpredictability from that to do this. I think what is certain from a mathematical standpoint, I'm borrowing from Johnny Carson and Charlie Munger here, is how to fail. And I think how you can fail in life is be uninvested, unprofessional, unreliable, and uncoachable. And I think if you repeatedly do those things, no matter how different. or talented you are, you will fail. I have never been the most gifted or talented, but I've always tried to be invested, professional, reliable, and coachable. And I have not failed because of lack of those dimensions. But I guarantee you, if you do those four things, you're going to crash and burn. I love how much you've been taking in these moments. You even at one point physically, like, said,

I'm taking a mental picture here. What are you thinking in those moments when you're looking out of the crowd? What's going through your mind? Well, a lot of the times it's like I've been in front of the situations like this a lot, but just don't forget. Like I have, gosh, again, life has dealt me so many opportunities. And I think the way to honor those opportunities is remember. I've been in the Sahara Desert, nothing around but golden sand.

I've stared up at the pine trees in northern Canada. I've seen the waves crash and blue water on the beaches of Puerto Rico. And I've fucking seen Madison Square Garden sold out. And quite a few times. All of it's beautiful. You know, I've seen the look of love in my wife's eyes. God, I've seen my family tear up and we embrace a hug in a moment. And I've also been able to just look around at people staring at a 20 by 20 box and just be,

just be lost and all of it is beautiful. And I just, I want to honor what's happening by not forgetting it. How much is making, how much as being a husband changed you over these last few years? A lot, a lot. And for the better. You know, we, I always abide by hard work, hustle. And a lot of times that can be selfish. And it got to a point where I was kind of hustling with no real backbone. Okay, you came from humble beginnings. The goal of everybody is to get out of those beginnings. All right, you're going to be okay. Well, I'm never going back. So I'm just going to keep hustling. And then when you look at the hustle, which is admirable, and that's another thing, like, man, I do too much. heroin. We got to get you to a doctor. I work too much. Oh, you're on the grind, bro. It's admirable.

So you get a dopamine rush for wanting to work. It becomes your identity. I'm going to be the hardest worker in the room. But I also sever friendships. I don't have any necessarily connection in my life. If you're with me, you're riding my coattails. And I don't mean like you're trying to gain relevance. I mean like, hold on because we got to do all this my way, because I'm grinding, you know? Um, and then I just looked around of like, what am I doing? I haven't, I have no, no connection in my life. And this is, this is like kind of everything else in my life. Early on in my life, I would bring my own food to restaurants. Now I've negotiated a way to enjoy time and enjoy where I sit and enjoy the creations of the chef and drink a nice bottle or have a nice beverage.

And it doesn't need to be at a Michelin Star place. I have a cheeseburger and a pint of the plane with the voice and it'll be great but i lean into enjoying that i don't feel guilty about it what is your go-to-drink uh pint to ginnis fellow oh yes fell a pint to the plane thank you shamus pint to the plane um but i think the same the same epiphany kind of happened with life of like man you just need a little balance here and a lot of that balance is going to be understanding your part of like something greater part of a team. And, man, again, I was just lucky to find somebody who wanted the same things.

We became like besties over one date. And then as with all luck, the immediate thing you have to do after luck is provide effort. And I've switched from all my efforts into one lane to like now a lot of efforts over here. And I put all my efforts in wrestling. and accomplished an unreal amount. So like, what if I could put that effort into being part of a team? What would be the yield? You know, so that's been a fun, a fun journey so far.

We got married around the same time, and I feel you. Like, it's crazy how much it just changes your life for the best. Well, it's, I think it's supposed to. And I think where I've, you know, I always want to be accountable, where I've missed before, is thinking it wouldn't. Like thinking it is just a thing to do where it wouldn't change my life. I don't think I was ever ready.

And just because, you know, you conduct yourself in a virtuous fashion or however, it's still, it's more than that. It's giving when you'd have no time. It's listening when you have no patience. It's reaching out. a hand when they're knocked down. It's encouraging the growth of your partner's journey as well as your own. It's doing things together. It's talking about everything together. There are no hidden spaces.

What I'm real grateful I've got to do with my wife, and I think this is the thing I'm most grateful for this year. She has been on every show since like Summer of Sina. So she's done like a loop. She's seen probably, probably a hundred shows. She's backstage with me. Like not backstage. in catering. We share the same room, and I don't come out of my little room. We solve all the world's problems in there. She wrote the lazy boy joke for Randy's promo. She writes promos. She gives ideas. Great line. She gives a perspective that she's not like, she's not a super fan, but she's not ignorant. So she gives a good perspective. She's seen us playing matches. And then she sits ringside and I'm the loudest talking to biz. She can hear it go together. She has a seat and a

understanding about what I do, that now beyond this, if she wants to stay home for Vegas and I go to WrestleMania and say, we did six appearances, I went up into three corporate boxes, I had a four-hour meet and greet, she knows exactly what all these things are. She's been on a media day for press. She's been on red carpets. She's been at shoots. She's been through night work. She's been on commercials. I used to have WW is my safe space because they didn't want to fuck it up. I didn't get fired because again maybe trauma they were going to fire me i never want to hear those words again so i'm going to do everything to control everything if i'm just alone and then finally i'm like man if i want to grow old and now with the knowledge base she has i can put on a match when i came back from the rumble

in msg no one knew they k-fayed me i stayed in a locker room she's like which one the one at the garden we saw dead not at the bottom of the ramp oh my god like we now have that connection i can I can plug her in to the previous 18 years of my life. And she understands because I was brave enough to let her in and not keep it for myself. It reminds me that quote, want to go fast, go alone. Want to go far, go together. Man, I got to steal that from you. That's not my quote, but it's a great quote, right?

Yeah. I want to list off some people that you worked with this year, whether they were your opponent or you shared the ring with them. Give me a one word or one sentence. about this person. Okay. So one word, I got to choose myself. I got to choose my words carefully. I'm going to try to do one word.

Okay. Just to make a challenge. Resilient. Randy Orton. Smooth. Smooth. Our truth. Beautiful.

In what way? He brings every, he makes everybody smile. On camera, off camera. That's beautiful. Logan Paul. Underrated. CM Punk. My wrestling soulmate.

Wow. Drew McIntyre. Glad I wasn't on the other side of that kick. I, again, a story of resilience. Sammy Zane. Wow. Underdog. Brock Lesnar.

The best. Uh, wait a second. We all, sometimes we talk about once in a generational athlete. Brock is a once in a genre. There will be one Brock Lesnar in wrestling. And that's from like carnival time to the time we shut the lights out. If we're lucky enough to get another, I don't know who it is. And that's more like people look at him and go, no one will ever be built like him.

But it's so much more than that. That's what I mean. He is a once in a genre performer. AJ Styles. best to ever do it. Do you think he's the best ever doing? Sean's going to be pissed. And, man, I, God did Sean ever take care of me.

Man, there's not a lot he can't do. And he can't make it look easy. He makes difficult look easy. And that's, we're getting way off of one word, but that is not God-given talent. That is practice. When you see difficult become seamless, it's because it's been done 10,000 times. And the amount of shit he can do seamlessly, man, he's best to ever do it.

The fella, Seamus. This is way inside baseball and only he's going to get it. The world's tallest wrestler. And I got one more, Ramos Serio. A mentor and someone who allowed me to be part of their family. when they didn't need to. What do you mean? I mean just that.

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You're the best. I love sitting with you. And thank you for always being so open and like willing to, I love that we went through this entire year. So thank you. Yeah, and I wanted to wait to the end so we could actually talk about it. I love it. Because I have had to duck some questions.

It hasn't been easy. I had to throw that clickbait shit at you guys. I've had to come up with strategic ways. It's deduct questions, but it's coming down to the end. And now I think spilling the beans is going to help, especially like here we are nine days away, I think it's going to help people with closure. And I mean that. Like, you're allowed to think how you want.

But here I am pouring my soul out to you, but for a reason. So you all understand after the 13th is over. I think that what we've seen in the matches and the promos leading up to this are the paintbrush strokes, right? now we're able to zoom out a little bit and see the whole picture. But, I mean, if you do, and that's what's beautiful about an art gallery without the artist being there. Picture hangs there. You see it. You be like, oh, man, doesn't do anything for me.

It's kind of trying to elicit this. But if the artist was over my shoulder, the artist could be like, but I was trying for this. I can tell you what I was trying for. But what I do know is we have minimized apathy this year. And that's a real good thing. That if when you can minimize apathy, you have interest, whether it's positive or negative. Did you have an intention at the start of this retirement? I just wanted to work.

I really knew, like, first ever, big bet. I want it to work. Because if it does and people want to take the model and run with it, we got a new way to do it. But at the very least, I've held down 22 years. knowing that if you bet a buck on me, I'll give you 10. And that's not just from a boardroom perspective. If you pay to see me in an event, I'd like to feel I'd give you 10 times what you paid for. And that's because I give you everything I have. So just wanting to give anybody invested return on investment. Gosh, I've been a 10-year thing. We couldn't miss them. If it sucked,

only been to one. You might have given me two. But man, the fact that you can't miss is great. The fact that everybody has a perspective is great. Like I said, I'll be it positive or negative. You're never going to universally appeal to everybody. But the fact that we have minimized apathy, gosh, man, I think the return on investment is good. I think we've done good work. And I'm happy to get across the finish line on the 13th. I feel like you are one of the hardest working men in this city in Hollywood. Realistically, how many hours a night do you try to sleep? No, I get rest.

I used to, man, it's a thing from the right now video where I have a sign that says sleep is not mandatory. I should cross out the knot. Sleep is mandatory. And I fashion my days around that. So when we have, let's say, Budapest to Indy to Budapest. And I say I'm going to sleep on the flight, but I don't.

And I know I need. 12 hours on the back end. I know I can operate for like 36 straight, maybe 40. I get blurry around 18, then you get blurry around 28 again. And you ask people who work double shifts, medical professionals, this. A lot of them will say the same thing. You do get like a second win. But after that, I need like three days, like 70 hours of sleep. So I will, I will carve it out. But not like 70 hours of consecutive sleep. No, no, but like 12 in a block. Do you imagine sleeping for four days? Man, be nice.

But I will get home from work, fall asleep in the car, stumble to room, not even say hi to the wife, but again, we plan on this before. I call it asking for grace. We have a tough run come up.

I need to ask for grace at these three points. That means normally it's within our values for me to check in on you in the morning and us to get together for at least 90 minutes and talk about our day, what went on, what happened, happened. What are you thinking about? Just 90 minutes of us being there with each other.

Asking for grace is like zero minutes. Survival and my well-being, I just got to get right back to me being good because me being in debt is doing nobody any favors. And she understands that. So I just immediately, the movie turnaround is like 12 hours. You got 12. So it takes me an hour to get home and an hour to get there. I know I got 10. And a block of 10 is just enough to be like, man, I'm not blurry anymore. And then that second block of 10, it's like, whoa. All right. And then the third block of 10, it's like you're ready to go.

So I get my rest. I want to thank you again for making this happen because at the start of the year, I was bugging you to do an interview in January. And you're like, it'll happen at some point this year. I could not have thought of a better time to do this. I would have sucked if it was right now. Or they would have said it sucks. They would have said we booked it wrong.

This is perfect. Look at that. It was a nice one at the end. And I'll ask you the question at the end here that I asked everybody. I asked you this last time too, but maybe your answer is so different. Because gratitude is such a huge thing for me. I know it is for you as well. You've mentioned it a few times during this interview.

What are three things, John, and you're grateful for in this moment right now? Gosh, the love and connection I have in my life, my health, and the understanding that I am a part of the opportunity. opportunities I have been lucky enough to have, but I have not done this by myself. So telling people that I'm thankful for what they do. That includes you, that includes everybody out there. Like every dance partner I've ever had, Stu the cameraman, Degger Catering. You got Stu over. Stu got himself over. I mean, when you, when you have a relationship, I've known him for 25 years.

Rico and Marty and like all the guys in the truck, like, we don't. don't do it without them. Scalise from live events, Derek from merch, like they're all important and they're all important in making things important. So I think it's certainly loving connection and my health

and just understanding that like, no matter how big your head thinks you get, like it's not you. You don't do it alone. It takes everybody. And you should be thankful for everybody. Well, what a year. Yeah, right?

Again, thank you for this. No, no, thank you, man. Appreciate you. I appreciate you. I know. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley.

Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of them? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987.

I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Allie. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.