Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Kaitlyn: WWE Divas Champ, AJ Lee, Why She Said "No" To A WWE Return, Life After Wrestling

Episode Date: October 15, 2026

Celeste Bonin (@celestebonin) is a professional wrestler best known for her time in WWE as Kaitlyn. She sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Houston, TX to discuss joining WWE with no pro wrestling experience, her friendship with AJ Lee, winning the Divas Championship, Michael Cole burying her NXT match on commentary, wrestling Vickie Guerrero, how the spear became her finisher, why an in-ring return is unlikely, and more! Please support our sponsors: SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount NATIVE PATH: Get over 50% off and FREE SHIPPING at https://getnativepath.com/CVV HELIX SLEEP: Flash sale! Go to https://helixsleep.com/cvv for 27% off sitewide! COZY EARTH: Go to https://cozyearth.com/CVV for up to 20% off! BETTER WILD: Get up to 40% off your order at https://betterwild.com/cvv BEAM: Go to https://shopbeam.com/INSIGHT and use code INSIGHT for up to 40% off Beam’s Dream Powder SHOPIFY: Start your free trial today at https://shopify.com/INSIGHT PRIZE PICKS: Go to https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/INSIGHT and use code INSIGHT to get $50 bonus credit in daily fantasy lineups when you play your first $5 lineup! DELETEME: Use the code INSIGHT to get 20% off your DeleteMe plan at https://joindeleteme.com/INSIGHT BETTER HELP: Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Get 10% off at https://betterhelp.com/cvv LEAN: Get 20% off with the code CVV at https://takelean.com FACTOR: Use the code INSIGHT50OFF to get 50% off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year, while supplies last until 10/31/2026 at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFF PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/cvv NORDVPN: Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app! Get an exclusive NordVPN deal + 4 months extra here: https://nordvpn.com/cvv It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30-day money-back guarantee! CALDERA LAB: Go to https://calderaLab.com/CHRIS and use code CHRIS for 20% off your first order. For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Flee! It was so good to see you. It is so good to see you, too. I was trying to think of the last time that we saw each other in person. It's a lifetime. I think it was 2018. Yeah. We did an interview backstage in South Florida at a CCW show.

I was still recording my episodes on an iPhone with a microphone plugged into the lightning port. Yes. Yeah. Have you heard the theory that? you're essentially a new person every seven years. Ooh. So it's like you're an entirely new person, and so am I. And that comes from the idea of like your cells are replacing themselves, I think.

Yes. Yeah. Wow. New people. Yeah. Well, I'm Chris. It's nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

You look great. You look great. Thank you. You look like you could still go. Yeah. Yeah. No? Those are some big arms.

Oh my God. Yeah. I'm in better shape now. screenshot by everybody. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, though. So I'll be 40 in two months.

Wow. And I look and feel better than I ever have. What started that for you? I think it's just wisdom. Like the journey of personal evolution. And I tend to think that everyone wants to evolve and improve and be a better version of themselves. I know I certainly do. And I think a major catalyst for me has always been, I started working out when I was 15 years old. You know, I wanted like a weight bench for Christmas when I was 14. So I always wanted to be really

strong and powerful looking and have like a really incredible physique. And that was a big part of my identity as a teenager and really all my life. And it took me many years of experimentation with different ways of eating and training and treating my body. And it took me probably until my 30s. In my 30s, when I really started to figure out that there was a major emotional and mental component to having a really powerful physique and a very healthy body. And I think that just comes with wisdom and trial and error. Identity is a really interesting construct here, right? Because especially in society, we're always asking, like, what do you do for a living? For you, I feel like your identity must have been tied to pro wrestling for so long, right?

And when you think about it, you were in WWE for four years, from 23 to 27, I believe. And here you are so many years removed from it, but people still consider you a pro wrestler. Yeah. Do you still consider yourself a pro wrestling? I think it always will. My time in WWE was, first of all, it took me so, more than a decade. to, I think, wrapped my mind around what that experience really was for me. And I think I'll continue to have deeper understanding, you know, throughout my entire life, but it was this very

massive initiation into tapping into my potential, just not even as a wrestler, but as a human being. It was, first of all, such a huge blessing and just this incredible thing that came into my life experience. I got a developmental contract at 23, zero experience. What were you doing to this point? I was competing on bodybuilding stages and barcending. Going to school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was like going to, I was doing like a liberal arts thing.

I was just like, no, I don't know. And I knew I wanted to do something in fitness. And so I got this opportunity to try out. I met someone who he was a former developmental talent either left or got released or whatever and was so connected to the company. And I had a spray tan business with my friend. We were renting this little tiny room in the gym that I used to train at in Houston. And we were doing all these little, we were trying to build this business. And I just met this guy through that. He was in the fitness industry. I think he had a supplement company or something. And he was like,

to me and my friend, you guys would be great. You have the look and you're in shape. And so we wrote bios and submitted pictures and they, W.W.B. flew both me and my friend. Her name is Jody and we're still friends. She's, I'm going to see her tomorrow. I have a girl's weekend. I'm going to and they flew us both out and we tried out and she literally, she had, neither of us had any experience. She, after the first day, was like, and I respect her so much for this. She was like, this is not for me. And it was after learning how to take a bump and then taking 50 to 100 bumps. And then you wake up and you feel the physical repercussions of... Yeah, like you were in a car crash.

And she was just like, this isn't for me. And I was like, this is totally for me. And yeah, and so I got a contract and I moved there and it was all very fast. And then I was put on television, you know. And I think I had this operation. I had this decision to say, this is, I don't think I can do this. I can't handle this. I have never been in a wrestling room before. I've never talked on a microphone before, aside from maybe in seeing a small bodybuilding show or a talent show in high school.

Or I could say this is the most significant thing that's ever happened to me in my life so far. I'm just going to go for it. And it was this really defining moment for me to just say, okay, what's the worst that could happen? And this will be funny later on in this interview when we talk about the most horrible match that I ever, which is widely known on the internet of how terrible it was. But it was just this, and this is why I look at my WW career as this initiation into, okay, who do you want to be? And like, what is that going to take? And what are you willing to do? And it just kind of activated this part of me that was like, I'm just going to do whatever it takes. We got to talk about that CM Punk versus Kevin Owen's match recently for the WWE title on SmackDown.

It was nuts, and I was lucky enough to be right there for it. And when I say right there, I mean right there behind the announced table. Second row, big thank you to Seekek for the amazing tickets and for sponsoring this episode. With over 35 million downloads, Seekek is the number one rated ticketing app. There are more than 70,000 events listed on Seekek, including WWE, concerts, sports, festivals, and more. The NFL season is kicking off. Baseball is heading towards the playoffs. course, you can get money in the bank or Survivor Series tickets on there. And the great thing

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Everybody pointed out the obvious Harbaugh connection and everybody, as it turns out, was right because Nine is officially now a New York giant. You know, you talk about selling low. Even the Niners got a fourth for Trey Lance. He's out of the building. We will take that fifth pick and we will surely turn it into something more valuable than Nine ever was to this organization. The Jim Rome Show podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

What do you think your life looks like without WWA? I don't know. I don't know. I think because of who I am and the pull that I feel in my soul to do something meaningful and impact a lot of people, it would be on a larger stage, maybe not a global stage like WWE, but something, you know, something like that. I think there was a pull or I had some sort of magnetism that brought that experience in

and that that allowed me to step into that career. But I don't know what it looks like. And WVE fans are so loyal. They're so loyal. And a lot of the people that still support me and know me as Caitlin and will never know me as anything else, no matter what I do, it's because they watched me on television at a very formative age. when they were developing who they were, you know, as, you know, early teenagers or, and those are some of the best conversations that I have when I do signings is that, you know,

people usually it's men and women in their early 20s, mid-20s, and they're like, oh, my God, you were my favorite when I was 13 years old. Well, they saw something in you that they saw themselves. Yes. Right? Like, you were so different. You weren't the prototypical diva. Yes.

So they were like, I like that. I want to be like that. And those are the moments. Like, those are the conversations that I'm like, yeah, I haven't. wrestled in 15 years or haven't been on a, you know, aside from the May Young classic, but it doesn't matter how far removed I am from that. It's still a significant piece of someone else's life who, you know, during that time when they, when I was on television. When was the last time you wrestle a match?

We're in seven years? Seven years? Yeah. I can pull it up here. Check Wikipedia. You've got December 14th, 2019, a gang. Grell's show. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Remember the casino in Daniel Beach? The casino. I remember going to some of those shows. It was a cool spot.

You didn't really work, I'm looking here, you didn't really work a lot of indie matches. No. At all. I did, when I left,

so I left W. in 2014 and I still had two years left on my second contract. And when I left, I was in such a interesting spot in my life

because it was about maybe three and a half years in to my WW career, I essentially started to kind of just fold under pressure of being on global television and show business and consistently trying to prove myself and especially with the way that I started.

I was put on NXT, which, NXT was so different back then. It was the third season of NXT, and NXT was a reality-based elimination show, and it was the first all-women season. and I was a last-minute replacement on that show. I had five days to get ready to be on television. I didn't have wrestling boots. I had just gotten the name Ricky Vaughan in Developmental.

It was a name I loved. Ricky Vaughn? Yeah, that was my first... You know who Ricky Vaughn is in movies, right? I do now. Charlie Sheen's character in Major League. What I think happened is like... So when I was in developmental, and this is how it was,

when you're developing your character and getting your name and figuring out who you're going to be in the ring, you submit names, first names, last names that you like. And I had submitted this list of names that were very unisex, like, Ricky, Alex, I felt like that kind of fit who I was, who I am. And then, so they got, creative got back to me, and there was this pairing of Ricky Vaughn. And I loved it. And I didn't, I didn't even know anything about the movie. But I think somebody in creative probably did. They're like, this is going to be funny. And maybe it wasn't spelled the same way, but how'd you get the name Caitlin then?

So I had got the name, Ricky Vaughn, loved it. And I don't even, it was a matter of, I don't, it's a blur now. It was a few weeks maybe that I had it or less. And when the third season of NXT was set to debut, they had, W.WB had brought in someone from the indie scene. Her name is Lindsay. I think, Lindsay Hayward. This woman is six foot eight, legitimate, not a build height, like six foot eight.

Wow. And they were bringing her in, from my perspective, to be the draw. of the show, like this massive woman. And I guess she had done some stuff on the Indies, and five days before the show was supposed to air, it was live on the sci-fi network for the first five episodes. And then I think it went to just online, or it was online in the U.S.,

but then it was being aired in other parts of the world on television, and they ended up releasing her. And I was there, like, I got a call from John Laurinitis, leaving the school one day and he's like, you're up, kid. And I was in shock. And so, you know, they had me a pair of boots made overnight. They gave me a thousand dollars petty cash from the safe and told me to go buy diva clothes. I didn't have, I had denim shorts and pink tops and workout clothes. And then when I got to TV, I went for Monday Night Raw and that was my, I went for Monday Night Raw.

And that was my first time ever being backstage or meeting John Cena or any. of these events. And then the next day, I was supposed to go on television and I debuted in Baltimore. And they gave me the name, Caitlin, the day that I debuted. And how much training had you had to this point? Like three weeks, like three weeks of training. I remember this moment where I was introduced to Fit Finley, who became a very important person to me in my short time that I was with WWE. And he was like reading a piece of paper or something and we're walking and talking. And he's like, so how long have you been a really? wrestling three months are something. And I was like, no, like three weeks. It was just like this

funny interaction because it doesn't matter where it's so insignificant. Sure. But yeah, and I remember this release after that first time, the first episode of NXT, I got through it. I think we had like a dance competition and it was just, it was all a blur. And a lot of it was a blur because it all happened so fast and there was so much adrenaline involved and not a lot of time to process what was happening but I remember this huge just sigh of relief like leaving my soul after the first after the first show I'm like hey like I'm alive like okay um but it was it all happened so so fast you shared something on Instagram recently I want to read to you okay in my early 20s I was catapulted on a global television with zero experience and a blind trust in my ability to rise to the occasion.

Moving through public judgment, ridicule, and criticism became the initiation that shaped me into a bad M-effer. At 39, after 15 years of building a public identity, multiple career pivots, and more reinventions than I can count, my sense of self is strong. And still, every now and then, I catch myself wanting people to understand me, to see my heart, wanting to correct the version of me they've created in their mind. but none of that is my responsibility. My responsibility is to tell the truth and live it fully.

Yes. What does that mean to you? Yes. It's kind of a lot packed in there. I was feeling, I posted that yesterday in my stories, and then I made it an official page post on my Instagram today because it had such a massive reaction of just so much support. And I just felt so inspired yesterday.

I knew that we were going to, you know, have this interview. And I was really excited just to, you know, we thought last time we talked and did anything like this was eight years ago. And I was a lot can happen in eight years in terms of just the way that I see myself and the way that I value myself and the way that I understand my life and everything that has transpired so far. For so long, I struggled with the belief that I did not do enough with the platform that I had when I was there. And when I left and I asked for my release, it's because I was struggling. And I didn't see how I could continue to do what I was doing mentally, emotionally. Like, my body was, I was gaining weight. Like, I just...

Did you second guess yourself? Like, after getting your release, did you go, what am I doing? I could have made it work maybe. Later. But initially I was so glad. I was so relieved. It was just like, it's kind of like that valve release that I was talking about after that first time I was on television, I just felt like I could breathe for the first time

and so long. And I didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I wanted to start a business and build this new identity and do something different, especially after this belief that I had in myself after what I had just done in my WV career after having zero experience in the way that I started. So I felt confident in my ability to recreate myself. But I didn't have any regret in leaving until later when I started to feel more stable. And I started to kind of feel more emotionally regulated. And looking back, I'm like, if I had new, if I knew how to talk about what I was going through and if I had

someone I felt like I could talk to about it, maybe it could have been different. But I didn't know, I struggled a lot with being able to actually articulate what I was experiencing because I didn't think a lot of people would understand outside of the industry that I was in. And I didn't feel like I had anybody that I could talk to within that, the structure of the people that I was working with, talent. Like, I just, I didn't feel like I, I didn't know what to do. And so I, after a few, I would say, I started to say, maybe, maybe that wasn't the best decision, maybe six months later, but I had already, I started a business six months later. I wish I had handled it different. Those were the thoughts that I was having. But the biggest thing that I struggled with for so long, and this was like a

decade of, I just wish that I had done something more with the time that I was there. Like, I, because again, like, it was all so fast. And there was just these intense highs and lows. And I didn't have a lot of confidence in myself as a wrestler in the ring. And like, I didn't really even know who my character was. It was always just me, but like a little bit tougher, you know, like, who is Caitlin? Who is she? But I didn't really have a message.

I wasn't like, this is what I stand for. This is what I believe in. And this is what I want people to understand about themselves. themselves when they can, you know, when they see me and experience me, whether it's on television or it's on a signing or something like that. But I don't think anybody knows that when they're 23, 24, 25, you know? And so I think it was partially an age thing. But it just, it was just, I didn't know how to hold that magnitude of what, what I was experiencing. What was the match where you started to get that confidence where you're like, I kind of know what I'm doing now?

That's a good question. Such a good question. I would say, say, I don't know if it was any one match, but I would say it was, it was leading up to, so I got the title in 2013, early 2013. I would say it was probably late 2012. I started to have matches where I could comfortably watch my matches back without like absolutely cringing. And I just kind of felt like I had started to find a flow. I liked what I was wearing a little bit more. I felt a little bit more comfortable. And I had started to really own moves,

moves in a different way instead of just trying stuff and saying, does this work? You know, like, do I look okay when I'm doing this? And does it look powerful? And then when I started wrestling Eve, when I had a feud with Eve, which ultimately led to winning the title, she was such a great mentor to me.

because she was so, and she still is, so beautiful and feminine, but strong and smart. And she taught me a lot. And she was just so willing to teach me instead of that idea of not wanting someone to take your spot. Or, you know, she was just really wise. And I looked up to her a lot. And I felt very comfortable with her in the ring in terms of, like, her guiding me through stuff as the more experienced person in the ring. Was the hair your idea? What the hair?

Oh my, yeah. How did that come about? Kind of. Kind of. So you're talking about like this thing is for Caitlin hair? The Caitlin hair. Okay. So I had blonde hair when I got hired.

It was kind of like dirty blonde. And then I think I was just trying to create more of a look, you know? And then, oh, I think I had had sort of a hairstyle like that when I first got on a bodybuilding stage. And I just kind of went back to that I felt it was a little edgy and nobody else on the roster had that. And then what happens is when you make something signature to you, then you start getting action figures and things like that, then you can't really change it unless you give permission because they put all this money in merch. But I do think it was helpful because it did helped me stand out in terms of people could recognize it. And then I had women, like younger women

on social media doing, you styling their hair like that too, which was cool. Maybe you should bring it back. Maybe. We've got your own thing going with the hair now. Yeah, yeah. It's like another, like, story in itself. Yeah. What do you, what do you call this hair? I don't know. So when we had our last interview, I had really dark, long hair. Yeah. I was going through a totally different. That's right. Yeah. And I had just got my sleeve. I had just got my tattoos. And so I was just kind of starting to tap into this edgier, more embodied version of this, I think, the weight of the things that I had carried from my past. And I was like a very, I was exploring a lot internally. And it was like my outer expression was just dark, I think. But I always loved my,

I always loved my, the way that I looked more when I was blonde. So it was just kind of an interesting stage. And then I had an undercut. I shaved. I had a part of my head shaved for five years. I had that haircut. But I did a lot of cool stuff with it. I would get designs in it. And I don't really, it was just a stage, a phase I was in, and then I got dreads. So I've been doing it. How long did you have dreads for? Four years. Up until like kind of recently, right? I cut him last fall. Yeah, I remember seeing. this on Instagram. So what's, how would you encapsulate the phase of life you're in now then?

I don't know. Well, I feel very much like myself. Not like, I don't know. Like I just, I think that the way that we physically express ourselves, the way that our bodies look, the way we choose to style our hair and what we choose to wear is, you know, it's an expression of who you are in the inside and where you're at and what you're feeling. And I've always used my self-expression as a way to say this is what's happening internally, I think. And I feel like I've come into this time where my style is very chic. And I adorn myself a different way. And I

carry myself a different way. And my posture has changed. My physique has changed. And it's just a representation of this evolved version of myself that I am now. Do you think this version of yourself would ever wrestle again? I don't really, I hope no one hates me for this, but like, I don't really want to get back in the ring. I respect wrestling a lot, and I find it very entertaining, and I love the artistry of it. And I can, I don't think I could ever have the appreciation that I have now if I had never, you know, been a professional wrestler, because there are so many aspects to the

the performance. There's so many things to think about the psychology of the match, connecting with people, telling a story with your face and your body, protecting your face and your body, protecting the person that you're in the ring with, helping them perform to their best. Like there's just so knowing where the cameras are, knowing how much time you have, being able to change it up if the people in the audience aren't buying it, if they don't care about it. So there's so, it's just, there's so much to it. It's such a beautiful art form. So I will always love it and deeply respect it.

And I don't really watch it, but occasionally I will if there's someone that I'm still friends with or that I love. Occasionally, I'll watch a match. But I just, I don't know. I don't think I am going to get back in the ring because I don't have this like burning desire to do that. What are you doing now? Well, so I've been coaching. So when I left wrestling, I started a clothing line called celestial bodies. And I have a total.

It was like leggings with the scrunch butt. You made the butts look very good. I remember we did a TV story about this on Deco Drive in South Florida. You made the butts look very good. Yeah. So I was having that seam sewn into my wrestling gear. And so when I left, it was being done in swimsuits. like fitness suits, but it was not being done in leggings. So I got a prototype made. And

yeah, I created and trademark and patented the booty scrunched leggings in 2014. And I tried for so many years to get a utility patent, which truly protects something in fashion, but I could only get a design patent. And so people had started to use the design within months of me putting that out. But yeah, I created the booty scrunched legging in 2014. I've had so many men thank me for that. They're like, my wife's butt looks so good in those leggings. I was trying to be a gentleman about it. It's the way it accentuates the curves of a woman.

And this was such an important thing to me because I was self-conscious for years on television. And my weight fluctuated. there was in 2012 I was like super ripped and then I had you know I just went through these stages of where I had gained weight and you know life on the road was very difficult not to mention the stress and the cortisol constantly pumping through my body and then all the pressure of everything else and I was you know so I struggled a lot with with my body image and feeling confident in the ring and I never really felt like I was able to get to that flow state of like loving my wrestling gear. And so when I left and wanted to start this other business and rebuild my identity and do

something different and, you know, establish myself as an entrepreneur, I thought this idea was so cool. You know, this helped me, even this just tiny little rooishing, this tiny little thing gave me a little bit more confidence in anything that could help me feel more confident was really powerful. So that I felt very passionate about it. And I had that business for seven years. And I had a lot of success. I had a lot of success. I reestablished myself in the fitness industry. And yes, of course, being a WVDiva helped elevate me a lot and gave me a lot of credibility. And I had this massive following from wrestling. And I was on the cover of Iron Men magazine twice. And I was on the cover as a not only a fitness personality, but as an entrepreneur. And that meant a lot because it was

finally, I was stepping out of this shadow of just being Caitlin. Yeah, and it's something you built yourself. Yeah, yeah, and that was really, really important to me. And so in 2021, so towards the end of having that business, I essentially lost my ass in 2020 in business. But it was, it wasn't like, oh, it was COVID. I just was not aligned with it anymore. And I didn't, when I first started that company, I was like, this is what I'm going to do forever. Like, I love this. This is, you know, and then eventually started feeling this call to want to do something.

more, something that was maybe a little bit more impactful, I had more meaning to me. And so during, while I was having those thoughts, I also had started to do some consulting. And I was consulting, coaching other influencers that were wanting to bring a product to market and to create a personal brand for themselves. And because I had done it, I started doing some of this coaching, and I found so much fulfillment in that. And I was like, this is for the first time, I felt a lot of, I think for the first time ever in my life as an adult in my career felt this sense of purpose in a different way. And I'm even talking about when I was wrestling. Like I felt this.

It just was something I had never felt before. And so I started pursuing coaching. And so I started coaching business, my first one with my former husband in 2021. And we were doing private coaching, group coaching, holding retreats. And it was so much fun. And what was really cool is I went through a lot emotionally, mentally, mentally. in 2018, you know, I talk about this in interview sometimes and I talk about it on social media that 2018 was like my rock bottom. I was drink, I got to a point where I was like drinking every

day and I had gone to a medical detox, like a few times. And I, 2018 was this year, very pivotal year for me where I was being asked by my life circumstances by my internal world to take a deeper look at my life and there was a lot of things being shown to me. I had gone through a very, very, very difficult marriage and divorce. I was having these thoughts of like, I don't think this is what I want to do for the rest of my life in terms of, and I had, you know, I was like, man, I'm going to start over again. I started, you know, I had started over with wrestling and then building this business, and here I am again having these thoughts of like, you know, and just feeling this call to do something more and being more connected with what I felt was like actually my life calling and feeling

like true purpose in life. And yeah. And so I started to kind of have like an awakening to something more. And I started learning. I just started studying different things that were interesting to me in terms of like, you know, different philosophies, different ways of looking at life, different ways of perceiving spirituality and meditation. And it helped me a lot. and I started to heal myself or to actually allow myself to look at some of the stuff that had been very painful for me in my life, not only just some of my experiences in WWE, but things that happened in my childhood and we all have those things. And so it was just this big, so the things that I was learning were so powerful to me. I started wanting to implement that in the type of

coaching that I was doing. And so when I first started, I was doing more kind of, mindset, mind-body-type stuff, a little bit of fitness stuff. And then I was getting really into biohacking. And I started to really dabble in that. And I was doing ice baths and breathwork and all that stuff. And it was really, really profoundly transformative for me. And then the deeper that I went within myself, it was like I was accessing this intelligence that was always there. It was just kind of covered, it was covered up under this weight of my life and my life experience. And then I eventually started to study movement as a healing modality. And that led me to learn and study and become obsessed and fascinated with fascia. And your fascia is your connective

tissue. Yeah. And hold your entire body together, muscles, bones, organs, and your nervous system runs through your fascia. So your fascia is a living record of everything you've ever experience. So acute accidents, painful emotional dynamics, patterns, like the ways that we respond to external stimulus in our life. And so when you're, like myself, when you're in a time where you're wanting to change because it's very obvious that something needs to change in your life, and you try to think your way out of it, it only goes so far because your body is so programmed to react in certain ways and take you through these same emotional dynamics over and over again. And I was experiencing, like the manifestation for me was chronic pain.

And I was having really severe chronic pain, lower back, neck, the right side of my body. And my grandmother, she's 91, so sharp, so stunning, gorgeous, beautiful. Everybody loves her. She was diagnosed with fibromyalgia when she was 35. And when she got that diagnosis, she refused to take pain medication. And she, so to stay out of pain, she, was working out every day. She would do classes and go dancing. And I, so when I started to have this really severe chronic pain, and I'm like, maybe I have pharmaalgia. Like, maybe that's what this is.

And then that's really what, why I think I leaned so much into learning about fascia. And then the more that I released this stuff that was just living in my connective tissue, the more free I became. And then it had transformed my life so much that I became. certified to teach it and I integrated it into the coaching that I was doing. And so now I do mostly private coaching and I teach people a movement system and I call it body alchemy and there's other components of it. It is a life transformation process through the body. And you're putting videos out on YouTube that have nothing to do with your previous life in wrestling, which a lot of former wrestlers, you know, are talking about

their time and wrestling. You're building this channel on YouTube and we've collaborated on this video so anybody who's watching this can go subscribe to your channel. We'll send everybody over there. What are they going to find on your YouTube channel? So I had a YouTube back in the day. I think around the time that we did our last interview and I had like a podcast called The Unglamorous Life and it was like a vlog style and had someone editing it for me. And then I stopped making long form content for a very long time. And then I just started a new YouTube channel this year. and I was at a loss. I'm like, first of all, I committed to teaching myself editing long-form content, number one.

And short-form content is so easy for me because I've been doing it for so many years. It's just like, you know, just like anything that you do for 15 years. But long-form was a huge challenge for me. And I was also very in my head about, okay, what is this? And then I started, the more that I made the content, I started to realize, okay, it's just me. It's just my life. I don't have to make it to be anything. It's just let me create.

what I want to create, talk about the things that I care about, what I'm passionate about, what I have a lot of wisdom and experience around. And so it's not necessarily about any one thing. It's just about the way that I live my life and the things that I'm passionate about. Sometimes there's body stuff in there. Sometimes there's cool creative stuff. Sometimes there's, you know, funny, entertaining relationship stuff with my current boyfriend. And I also, this year, actually literally last month, I started a Patreon.

And I've been wanting to do subscription content for years, but I didn't know what I wanted it to be. Same thing with YouTube. I think everybody goes through this as a creator of like, what am I putting out into the world? And because, you know, a lot of times through when I left wrestling especially, and I started to establish myself as an entrepreneur and someone of, like, who was bringing value to the world, my, the way that I look is always kind of the elephant in the room, you know, and I struggled for a very long time trying to embrace and integrate my physical appearance and my sex appeal into my actual work because I wanted to be taken seriously and I wanted to be able to really understand the power of the work that I was doing because it had transformed my

life and I knew that it was something that I wanted to share with other people who were hearing my message. And so my boyfriend that I have now, we've been together for two years. When we first met, I propositioned him to, I wanted him to start, he's a very, very talented photographer. His stuff is so stunning. And I started to play around with the ideas of, okay, if you can photograph me and maybe I can actually start creating this custom content. And I hesitated for two years because I'm like, I don't, because I never wanted to go down the path of doing something that was like only fans or God forbid porn or whatever. Because I, you know, number one, that's just not what I want to do and it's not who I am. And I've also worked so hard to establish myself as someone who was so much more

than that. And I had this big fear that, okay, I'm going to start subscription content. Everybody's going to think they know what it is and, you know, I'm going to lose my ability to be recognized as a, you know, somewhat of value in the coaching world. And it's really had the opposite effect. And what's happening is it's unlocking this part of myself that has been so suppressed for so long where I'm owning this different flavor and this depth of my sexuality. And I'm allowing. And I'm allowing it to transform the power of my message. So it's like, it's funny. I had this conversation with a friend of mine. We're friends on social media. And I was telling them about what's actually inside my Patreon. It's not explicit. It's, you know, the photos and the videos are hot, but I also

have this podcast. And I'm talking about the stuff that's like, it's really good. And my friend was like, oh, so you're seducing people into improving their lives. And I was like, yes. Have you seen the comments from wrestling fans that are like, man, she's in great shape now. She looks better now than she did back then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it's nice to have those types of compliments and actually feel that that is true and to be able to receive that. Because I, you know, when I was wrestling, especially, so I weigh 138 pounds. When I left my wrestling career, I was 170 pounds. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was like a very, very, you know, I was like a very, very important. And 308 pounds. When I left. I was like a

very significant shift. And I was never fat or like, you know, obese, but it wasn't the way that I wanted to look, and it certainly wasn't how I wanted to feel. And so to have gone through this transformation over the last 15 years, yes, I, you know, I train my ass off in the gym and I work out five days a week. And I'm kind of a maniac when it comes to working out because it is, it's such a powerful ritual in my life. But. But it's so much of this other stuff that has transpired in my life that has allowed me to look the way that I look now and be able to maintain the level of body fat that I have year-round and to actually feel good and to enjoy my life. To be able to eat food and not suffer and not constantly be hungry. I just figured out this algorithm that works for me because I've done so much of this self-experation and figured out what really works for me.

Jim Rome takes on sports. Everybody pointed out the obvious Harbaugh connection and everybody, as it turns out, was right because 9 is officially now a New York giant. You know, you talk about selling low. Even the 9 has got a fourth for Trey Lance. He's out of the building.

We will take that fifth pick and we will surely turn it into something more valuable than 9 ever was to this organization. The Jim Rome Show podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Not everybody gets to be, the Divis champion. And like you were only there for four years, but you've got to be the person there. Like you got to win the Divas championship. So take me to that day when you found out that you're

going to win. Just like everything in my wrestling career, it was so surreal. I didn't really have time to process it. But, you know, I knew that Eve wanted to leave. And, you know, again, like, we had such a beautiful relationship. And she, you know, she. elevated me so much and she wanted to leave and sort of family and do something different in her life and so I felt this enormous um honor to be the person that received the title from her in her farewell match and so it was like it was so important because there were there was multiple things happening um and it was also like yeah wrestling is um scripted and written and when you're the champ like they decide you're going to be the champ.

But I think that in a lot of ways is more powerful than you just randomly winning a match. Like you, I, in my mind, and this is just how I see it, I became a person who was worthy of holding the championship. And especially knowing the way that I started, that was so significant to me. Like, I did it. Like, I did it. Yeah. And, yeah, I was scared. and afraid that I wasn't going to be able to live up to being the type of champion that Eve was.

And then to be able to win the title in my hometown as a baby face was very cool in front of all my friends and family. And Houston wrestling fans are so supportive and everyone's from all. People still recognize me around here. But it was just one of the coolest and most profound moments in my life. What was it like when you got to the back after winning that title? I did a interview, like, right when I got backstage. It was so sweaty. You didn't even know what I was saying.

But it was just like, it was one of those moments where I was kind of in this, like, I was in the quantum, you know, this like field of infinite possibilities. Like, I made it to this level, this level of, I don't know, I made it to, like, to be a world champion, you know, and again, wrestling is predetermined. It's written, but to become someone through the course of three and a half years, starting from absolutely zero experience to then holding the title representing the women's division of a global company is, I don't even know what word to use. How was it you in that spot? How were you the number one contender?

Okay. There's so much to this, but I, the reason I, the, the reason, and this is what most people know, like this is kind of the topical layer of the story. I became number one contender for the divas championship through a botch that happened on on Raw. This is the Divas Battle Royal, right? Yeah. And so, quick backstory.

I, up until that match was still, I had won NXT and I was put on Smackdown, but I was still just kind of floating around in this weird purgatory of like not being anyone's special on the roster and I was in some backstage stuff and some like, you know, random pre-tapes and stuff. But I had never, I hadn't done anything yet to establish myself as someone that was like, you know, someone that you didn't want to mess with or someone that, you know. And so that leading up to that battle royal, for at least a year, I was writing creative ideas. I was submitting creative ideas to creative, to pitching ideas to try to get on television, because that's what you do when you're not on television. And I had written this storyline where, so Bookerty was the Smackdown General Manager at the time. And I had written this story where I was going to be selected to be the, assistant to the general manager. So this would be the most significant thing to happen to my career

since winning an XT, and it would mean a regular spot on TV every single week to be to establish myself as a character, someone that people cared about, someone that people recognized. And so creative liked it. They took it. They ran with it. And so the way that it happened is I was given the spot and then Eve objected and she was she was a heel. And so then the storyline developed where her and I were going to wrestle and whoever won got the spot. And I was the way that it was written and the way that it was all the way until the very last minute I was supposed to win this. And on this day, WW Magazine was still around and I was doing a special for that, an article in them in the magazine as Ultimate Warrior. I had face paint on. I was fully dressed as Ultimate Warrior.

And I go out to the ring to put this match together, this match. that I'm supposed to be winning for this. Dressed as the ultimate warrior. I think that's the best part. And I get out to the ring, Eve's out there, and then our writer, Tom, comes out, and he's just, like, so defeated. I could see it in his face.

And I was like, uh, and he's like, Vince change his mind. He wants Eve to have it. So I wrote the storyline, right? And that this was going to be like the thing for me. And so we have the match. And I don't remember the match. She won.

She got the spot. And that was just kind of it. And then I think it was the same. week that that number one contender battle role was supposed to happen. And it was also the same night that Fit Finley came back from his one-year hiatus. And, you know, I said early in the interview that Fit Finley played a very important role in my career when I was there. And I'm, so this is probably two, three hours before doors open. And he's looking at the card outside Gorilla. And it's just me and him. And I'm just, I was walking by Gorilla. And he, that's the first time I saw him

in a year and he's like looking at the card then looking at me and looking at the card and he's like why aren't you on TV yet like why haven't what's happening and um and I was just like I don't know I know I'm in my mind I'm like I wrote the I wrote the storyline and I was you know and he's like he takes the card and he's like didn't you just have like a little feud with Eve and I was like yeah that you know the whole general manager thing and so he crosses the order of elimination out on the card because I was supposed to be eliminated like second. You know, I was going to be on TV for 15 seconds after and not have an entrance and whatever. And that's just how it was for me at that time. I was very low on the totem pole. And so he, he's like, okay, because you have this story,

Eve was supposed to be the number one contender. Eve was supposed to win this, this Divas Battle World. And so he's like, okay, well, you're going to be in there all the way up to the end with Eve. And then, of course, she's going to eliminate you and you're going to, and she's going to be the contender. And I was like, this was going to be the biggest moment of my career. Like, I had never been in the ring for that long in that caliber of a match. And so we have the match, and it gets down to Eve and I. And we had a spot. It was very simple.

I was supposed to close line her over the top rope. She was going to flip out, hang on, and pull me over and eliminate me, and then she was number one contender. And Layla had the title at the time. and she was sitting down at commentary. And we set up for the spot. The physics were off. She didn't, like, either I didn't hit her hard enough or, like, it was just off.

And she didn't flip over. And so we had to set the spot back up again. I, like, I don't know, kicked her in the, I don't remember. I had to have to watch it back, but I hit the ropes. And then I clotheslined her so hard that she could not hold on. And she fell out and got eliminated. And so live TV is live TV. Yeah.

What are you thinking? So what's even funnier is Brad Maddox, you remember Brad Maddox? Yeah. That was his first time ever reffing anything live, like on Raw, and he was the ref. And so he has Vince and whoever else in his ear, you know, on the mic, and they're telling him to celebrate. So he's just like, we're both, if you watch it, we're both standing, they're like, oh, God. And so, you know, he grabs my hand and I celebrate, and it's just like pure, I don't even know. I didn't, it was just, I think, I don't, I can't even, there was just so much happening because I had the thoughts of like, okay, am I going to get fired? Like, how bad did I mess this up? Is this good? Like, every thought you could have in that moment was just kind of flooding my mind. And then the lights went out. We went to commercial and I started walking back to Gorilla. And you just literally never know. You never know what to expect, especially after something like that. And I got back there and Eve was very upset and she was understandably.

and Vince was laughing. Vince was laughing. You never knew what you're going to get with Vince. You never knew what he was going to think was really funny or like fire you for. I don't think I would have gotten fired for that. But, you know, and that same writer that had to deliver the bad news to me

about me not getting that spot as the general manager assistant, he was like so happy and he was hugging me. Because he was like such, we were friends and he was such a big part of all of our lives. And he was like the divas writer. And he was so excited for me because he knew how hard I worked. And, you know, again, like, he knew me.

And he's like, you know, he's just like, you deserve this, you know, type thing. And he was like, some of the girls are already trying to get you written out. He was like, but I'm going to try. And because at that time, there wasn't a lot of TV time for the divas. And there was only one title. Yeah. And so everybody wanted to be the one. there wasn't, you know, now there's so, you know, how tagged, there's tag team title,

like all the different titles for women now, there was only one. And that is what led to, I think I did a cool triple, triple that match with Leila and Eve. That was really fun, and I loved that match. And then, yeah, and then it led to Eve and I having the storyline, and then that's why I won the title. And then it leads to this great match that you have with A.J. Lee at was a payback. In Chicago. Yeah. Tell me about that match.

Man. It's hard to articulate. It's hard to articulate what that match means to me. It is by far the best match of my career. And not just, like, technically in the ring, but just the rise of the storyline, how invested the fans were in us as women and how much we had,

poured ourselves into the process. And, you know, AJ and I were friends from day one. And I had one in XT. And so I was on the SmackDown roster, but I was kind of like by myself. I wasn't really a part of the click with the rest of the divas yet. And they had started to bring her up on the road shortly after I had one in XT. And we were just really tight. And we were just really tight from day one. And so we spent a lot of time doing jobs, you know, just like getting beat up by, I was telling you about this earlier, by getting beat up by Beth and Natty, like taking electric chairs. And neither of us had done anything super substantial yet, but we were slowly trying to get ourselves over on social media and Twitter. And anytime we were in the ring and they, one of the commentators would talk to us about, okay, what do you want me to say about you on. on TV, we were trying to get our friendship over and we deemed ourselves the chickbusters and I

started to call myself the hybrid diva and we were slowly getting there inch by inch. And then her stuff started to really take off with Daniel Bryan and she's, you know, she became this absolute force and then I kind of went the other way and went towards the title. And then when we, I guess we were kind of both at the top in a, you know, in a certain perspective. And so when we got to have our feud, we were doing some epic stuff. They were giving us crossover segments, which if you don't know what a crossover segment is, it's where it's like if you're going from 8, 59 to 9 o'clock, there's a high probability that people are going to change your channel to watch another show.

So you want to have something very compelling, a segment very compelling. And so we were getting some of that stuff. We were getting excellent ratings. And, you know, she was so good. And she's still so good on the mic. And people cared. People cared about our story because we for so long had put ourselves over as best friends. And not just on the show, but on social media.

And we were best friends. We traveled together, you know, and we just, like, got each other. And we were there for each other in a lot of moments that were very difficult behind the scenes. Just the pressure of everything and the travel was a lot, you know. And so it just, we, it was not just a storyline on TV. It was both of us with all of our hearts trying to elevate ourselves and the division and what the title meant. And, you know, I felt, and I'm not saying this, I didn't feel like my title reign didn't mean that much. I was champ during WrestleMania, 29, was not on the show.

So I didn't feel like my title reign. title rain held a lot of weight until literally the last day that I had it. And so it's just funny sometimes when I talk to people who might not know about that storyline, particularly kind of like the meat of it, like why it mattered. They're like, your favorite match was when you lost the title. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, because she had wanted the title for so many years. and we had this opposite story where I got hired because I was athletic and, you know, I had charisma and the way that I looked. And she loved wrestling from a very young age, and she did indie stuff. And, like, she was at developmental for years.

And so we had this totally opposite story happening. And she, the title was everything to her. And so for me to lose the title to her after telling that story, and have people care so much about it was, to me, there was nothing better than that. Didn't you guys go over on your time on this match? Yeah. You never go over. You're supposed to never go over, especially in a pay-per-view.

Yeah. But we did because our match was sick. It was so sick. And it wasn't like anything crazy technically. We were really good together because I was strong. the strong style and she was, you know, really light and we could do some cool stuff. And you had a great story. Yes. Yeah. And, and we were so invested into it. And it just made a lot to both of us.

So, yeah, they told us to go home. I think I can't remember. But I think originally they gave us like 12, maybe 13 minutes, which is a lot on a pay-per-view for women, especially then. And then I think we had a pretty big chunk of the match left, maybe like a third of the match left when they told us to go home. And she straight up was like, no. And I was like, okay, like, we're doing it. Because like, I, if she was, you know what I mean? It was like, she, I think her ability to not even blink and be like, no, we're not going home right now. I was like, all right, okay. Like, you know, and I think we went over a couple of minutes, but it was worth it. It was so worth it. And then the part that's scary is after that because no matter what, if you go over in your

time, you're taking time from someone else's match. You have the main event left. And I don't even remember where we were on the card. But when we got back to Gorilla, dad is something that you can get fired for, I feel like, especially then. Sure, yeah. But no, one of the most significant things I remember was Cina was in Gorilla.

And Cina was always really cool. He would help you if you wanted it. Like, if you really showed up and wanted it, he would help you. And he would watch matches and he would give feedback. and he would be like brutally honest with you. And the people that saw what he was doing and wanted it, he would help them. And so he was always like a mentor in a lot of ways if you wanted the feedback and you wanted to be better and you would actually take the advice.

And he was standing back there in Gorilla and he was just like, never do that again. And then it was like a beat to like have a beat of sweat. And then he was like, but great match. That was such a great match. It was so cool. So that's a high spot, and you mentioned it earlier. You had this match in NXT early on in your career with Maxine. Yeah.

And it's not treated well on commentary. Michael Cole during the match says it's the worst segment he's ever been a part of. What are you feeling in this moment? Do you realize that it's just being made fun of, essentially? Here's what's kind of crazy is like worrying about what was being set on commentary, which I obviously would hear later to watch it back. It was like the least of my worries. You know what I mean? Because I think that match in terms of like my level of experience, that was probably only, I still had less than 10 matches.

Like I had zero experience. And so, and Maxine had more experience. in me, but she wasn't like this. And this is not Maxine Dupree for anybody who's listening. Yeah, this is a different Maxine. NXT Maxine back in the day. But she wasn't this veteran. She had more experience in me.

She was the veteran in the ring. But, you know, and we weren't like super cool. We weren't super tight. Like, we didn't have this excellent chemistry. And I think that she was really bothered that she had to have a match with me because I had zero experience, you know. And it's not like I put myself in this position. I'm just willing to do what.

to do it. And obviously Michael Cole is, this is part of the storyline. Him and Josh Matthews are, like, they're pretending to not be interested in the match. Yeah. Like, I think Michael Cole takes a phone call. Yeah. Yeah. In the middle of your match. But he, Michael Cole took it really far. And I, you know, I'm saying it is the least of my worries because I was like under so much pressure to just even remember the basic components of the match and then also remember that there's cameras and trying not to hurt her and try to protect myself. So there were so many things. Um, and then, And then he, I think Michael, Michael Cole took it really far. And it, it, this is what I noticed.

That match was really horrifying for me. It was undoubtedly a terrible match. The match isn't that bad. It's just boring. And it's, you know, I think that they probably edited like a couple messups. I messed up in there. And it's, yeah, it's not like atrocious, but it's like pretty bad. But, and this is actually, so that post that you read earlier that, that I had made recently,

wrestling fans, and this is not all of them, I love wrestling fans, but there are certain people that are so hard on the wrestlers, on the performers, and so critical. And so I just was absolutely ripped apart on social media for matches like that. And I don't think that people knew that I didn't know what I was doing. Like, I don't think that people really understood that. I actually did a, I had an appearance. in Vegas for this WrestleMania this year.

And it was like at a drag show. It was really fun. Layla was there and Ariane Andrews was there. And this guy came up to me and he was like, he's like, I used to, I don't think he said I used to hate you, but he's like, I was never a fan of you. And I was like, this is an interesting thing, okay? And he was like, and then I found out

that you literally didn't have any experience. And he was like, I have so much respect for you. So I don't think that people knew that. And it's not their job to know that. But the way that Michael Cole would talk about us was like, I think it gave a lot of people permission to just like rip us apart on social media. Sure. And I think, you know, part of that is like being a rookie and you just, yeah, you develop tough skin. And like when I was talking about that post, like moments like that for the entirety of my career and even after I left, people always have something to say. People think that they know you. And it's like people create this certain

image of who you are in their mind and that's the only thing that they see. And like I, I never really lost sleep over it, but it used to really affect me. It used to really affect my confidence. And, um, and, and, you know, where I am now, it's like just this different level of acceptance and understanding of where people are at and, you know, it doesn't necessarily, uh, affect me. And it should, you know, it shouldn't affect me. But back then it did a lot, a lot. Because I was so insecure, not only about my rest. skills, but just being on TV and being a part of that roster. And you're thrown into this, right? And you're just like, here, learn, where does you go?

Yeah. You early on had a match with Vicky Guerrero. Like one of Vicki Guerrero's very few matches that she had. So you're pretty inexperienced. Vicky isn't a wrestler. How do you put together a match? I love Vicky. I love Vicki. And Vicky was very nervous. And so was I, because, like you said, she's not really a wrestler, and neither was I. So it's, you know, but the story was so interesting. And people really want to see it because, again, she's never in the ring. And people want to see her get beat up because she's this monster heel.

And you would just take in her boyfriend. Yeah. You'd just made out with Dolph Ziegler. Yes, yeah. And so it was, this was kind of like my first taste of how powerful a story can be, even if you don't, like you're not this excellent wrestler. It's about this story. And this was kind of like my first taste of that.

And I was so blessed. Because during NXT that season, and for the first few seasons, they would pair the rookie with a pro. So all of us that were up on NXT in season three, we all were paired with a pro. I think AJ had Primo and somebody had the Bellas. And I don't remember who's, but Vicky was my pro. And it was such a blessing because I was this little new baby face

didn't know what was happening. And she was as a monster heel. Anytime she would just hold the microphone in front of her mouth, people would boo for 60 seconds, which is insane. Like, she was so good. And so that was a huge, huge blessing for me because people wanted me to overcome the way that she bullied, bullied me on the show and the way that she treated me and talked to me. And she was so sweet backstage. And she was so helpful. But we were both super nervous. And so, you know, We went over the match a hundred times, and we were just both kind of in it together. But I wouldn't even consider myself a wrestler then at that time. Like, I would, you know, I...

How many matches in do you think you were? During NXT, like, every match that I had had was pretty much on television. I'm going to look at what number match that was in. Yeah, I don't have no idea. Do you have any sort of guess? I don't know. Maybe up until then, on TV matches, maybe five. Wow.

Okay. Let's see. What is it? Well, we're, so we're starting off. This is, let's see. I love that all the world's information is online here. Isn't it wild? So it was match number six.

Six. That was, so it was my sixth match. Wow. Isn't that wild? Yeah, that's. And one of those matches is an FC, no, fewer of these are FCW matches. Well, I guess, yeah. Because FCW, NXT, yeah.

You know what's crazy is that I look back now and I'm like, how does this global company just put somebody with zero experience on TV? Well, it doesn't work like that anymore, right? You would be spending months, if not years, in the D.C. now. Yeah, yeah. Just like get up to speed, make sure you're good to go on TV. Yeah. So interesting.

When I was there, do you know who Canyon Seaman is? Of course. Okay, so Canyon, he's a friend of mine, and we spent a lot of time, like, when he first came to the company, he, we spent a lot of time just talking, sitting in the seats watching, you know, matches we get put together before doors. And he was just like, trying to understand my story. And essentially it was like, he's like, this is never going to happen again. And, you know, and then a few years later, the performance center is born. And then I got to go train to the performance center. when I went back for the May Young Classic in 2018. So how did the May Young Classic come about? Canyon reached out to me.

So which is interesting because what would have been at that point? Four years before, you asked for your release. So then four years later, they see something in you. Obviously, you hadn't burned bridges. You get to be part of the May Young Classic. You know why they reached out to me is because, so when I left, I wanted nothing to do with wrestling because I was so burnt out and I was just like really struggling.

And I had decided to like make my comeback. That first match I ever did like an indie match against Rachel Ellering in 2018. And I was posting because I had a YouTube back then. And I was so when I had my clothing company, I had a videographer on retainer. And so he would shoot all my stuff for my clothing brand. And he also was kind of shooting this like mini series of me getting back into the ring. And so I had some really cool content out on my YouTube. And I was posting on Instagram and stuff.

So Canyon saw that I was wrestling again. And so he was in, then so he kind of propositioned me with me with May Young. And I thought I was, at first I was like, oh, I don't know. But then I was like, hell yeah, because I hated my last match when I left W.O.B. It was in Baltimore. And funny enough, Baltimore was where I debuted. And now being in Baltimore, the day that I asked for my release, it was like this horrible travel day. I didn't even get travel that week.

Someone knew, there was somebody new in talent relations. They weren't going to bring me to TV. And I'm like, oh my God. And so I had reached out to Tom, that writer. And I was like, I'm not booked for TV this weekend. You always want to just be a TV because you never know if they're going to write you in. And I didn't get travel. And so he pulled some strings and I got travel literally last minute.

And it was January in Baltimore. And so it was like a snowstorm. And it was like the most horrific time getting there. finally got there and it wasn't obviously wasn't on the show, I wasn't booked and I like looked around and I was like, oh my God, I debuted here and it was like this moment of like full circle and kind of gave me this like permission to be like,

because I had been thinking about it asking for my release because I was so unhappy. And yeah, and so I don't know. I was talking about Baltimore. I don't remember. How that led to May Young Cross. Oh, yeah. And so they told me, so I went to,

talent relations, and Mark Corona was sitting there, and I was like, I told him, I just, and he's like, okay, can you sleep on it? And I was like, okay. And the next, I think Smackder, this was at Raw in Baltimore, and I think Smackdown was in Philly or somewhere, and they were like, sleep on it. I think he had gone to talk to Hunter, and that was the kind of the feedback. And then, of course I did, and I felt horrible and awful the next day, but still was standing by my decision. I just, and I didn't tell anybody. I didn't even tell AJ. And I was really close with Big E then, too. Like, we're very, very good friends. I didn't tell anybody. Because I didn't want it to be a big deal. I just wanted to leave. I just wanted to be done. And that is one of the things

I kind of regret it because I cared about a lot of people there. But I was just needed to get, I needed to remove myself. I just needed space. And so I didn't tell anybody. And then, of course, a lot of people knew the next day that, you know, the writers knew. and everybody essentially knew. And so they gave me one last match, and it was on main event, and it was against AJ, and I don't remember the match,

but I was so sick to my stomach all day. And AJ, of course, was very upset, and she was trying to be supportive, and her and Tamina were kind of paired up at that time. And so we had the match, and then I just took a really brutal super kick to the face from Tamina, and that was it, and I hated it because I felt so sick, and I just wanted to leave.

and I was sad. You know, it was just this amalgamation of like really, it just, it wasn't good. And so when I had this opportunity to come back and step foot into a WWE ring again, I was like, okay, this is maybe an opportunity to, you know, it's four years. I've kind of reinvented myself a little bit. I have a better sense of self and I look different. I have tattoos now. Like, let me go back and do this.

And I had already been in the ring. So it wasn't like, oh, my God, I don't know if I can wrestle still. Yeah, sure. And I'm really glad I did because I got to experience the Performance Center. And I wrestle. I can't remember her name for my first match. It was like a very basic match. But my second match, I wrestled Mia Yem.

And Mia Yom is dope. And she was, I had never met her in person, but she was a big supporter of social bodies. And she was like posting myself and tagging me. And so like, and I thought she had like a cool style. And I, you know, and we had a great match. we had such a good match and I tapped out and I was so proud of it and I loved it and I was like this if I never wrestle again for WWB this is such a good match like I would be happy this is my last match and so I tapped out and I was like coming out of the ring and then this was that full sale

and then Triple H Hunter comes out and this was a shoot he announced it he gave her a contract that night like that's when she got her contract and I was like this is so dope like you know in my head and because that like I wanted that for her like you know she had been I think she had been wrestling for a while and she didn't have a contract and then they offered me a contract and essentially I didn't want to go back as Caitlin I hated the name Caitlin I didn't you know it's not they hated it just didn't resonate I'm like who is that and at the time I had celestial bodies and they I had this conversation with a canyon and I had this conversation of the canyon and he came back to me and he's like hunter thinks that you just want to wrestle under

your name because it's going to build your business and i'm even if that was the case you know like would you know but it was like over a weird like name thing and i don't think i you know if i was like oh i really want a contract i think i would have been fine going back as kagan's like your heart wasn't it wasn't it wasn't it was kind of the topical thing like but that's so funny that if they had allowed you to keep your name, you would have continued wrestling in WWA. I think so. You would have a second run. Yeah.

It was just something about this weight that the name Caitlin held and didn't like it. And it wasn't you anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yet, so it was just. So you said no. Yeah.

Yeah. I forget about that sometimes that they did offer me another one. But I was also, I think I was afraid. because I had left and built this different life and would I have the same type of experience? You know, I think that was kind of in the back of my mind and there was a little bit of fear there because no matter who you are, the pressure of global television is a lot. It's a lot of pressure. And then also, like, physically what your body goes through.

And I just, I think there was fear around that. And it's kind of the same reason why I'm like, right now, I'm just like, I don't think I don't really want to get back in the ring. But I deeply love and respect for wrestling. Jim Rome takes on sports. Everybody pointed out the obvious Harbaugh connection and everybody, as it turns out, was right because nine is officially now a New York giant. You know, you talk about selling low. Even the nine has got a fourth for Trey Lance. He's out of the building.

We will take that fifth pick and we will surely turn it into something more valuable than nine. ever was to this organization. The Jim Rome Show podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. How did the spear become your finisher? So I never had like a cool finisher before the spear. It was just like experimenting with stuff and nothing was like really like had any oomph to it.

And during my feud with Eve, the day before that I won the title in Houston, we had a singles match, a non-televised live event in, MSG at MSG. And we had, for some wild reason, we had Arne Anderson as our agent. I had never had Arn Anderson. The entire time I had been there, Arn was always agenting the top guys, like, you know, Sena's matches and Randy Gorton. And so we got Arn, and we were essentially practicing or trying to put together what our title match was going to be the next day on TV or kind of put the pieces of the story together. And Arn, over... the duration of my career, anytime that I got, anytime alone with him or, you know, a moment

where he had, he had a moment to say something to me, he would always tell me that I needed to wrestle strong. And he would, like, bring up Beth. Like, you need to wrestle stronger. Like, and I never really had the balls to do that. Like, I didn't see that in myself. Like, I knew I had more stature and muscle than majority of, like, the divas. But I just didn't own it. And so that night, Arn wanted me to try the spear. And I had never done it. And it was so sick. We had such a good match. And, you know, just the energy of MSG is... Yeah, it's iconic. Yeah. And it was such a good match. And the spear was so good. It was sick. And so Arn, I guess, went to creative the next day. And that was meant to be my finish for my title match. So the first time I ever used the spear on TV,

was when I won the title, and that's how it became my finish. Because Arne Anderson gave it to you. That's amazing. So, like, a couple years back, I lost access to my ICloud that had pretty much all of my photos from WWU days, like phone stuff. But somehow this one photo, I don't know how I have it. It's of Arn Anderson backstage shirtless, ironing his shirt before TV. I don't even know.

how I have it. Like, you know, if you go back to, like, how it's categorized by year. Yeah. And I only have, like, I have some bodybuilding competition pictures that I've saved of me online from, like, 2010. And then there's a picture of Arn. Iron is a shirt. It's so good. It's just funny. It's so good to see you. You're looking more jack than you've ever looked before. Thank you. Congrats on everything. Thank you. And congrats on reinventing who you are. Like, you've had a very successful life after pro wrestling and that's not the case for most people. So congratulations on that. I'll ask you the question that I ask everybody at the end and I know that this is going to resonate with you. Gratitude is such

a huge thing for me. I know it is for you as well. What are three things in your life right now as we sit here that you're grateful for? And these are things that I actively, like in prayer I'm grateful for every day because I truly am. So my body, like the health of my body, the way that my body looks, strength, just because I know, you know, I lost my dad in 2022 and my mom has been very sick for a long time. Things like that are these powerful mirrors of what's like so important. So I would, my body, my physical body, the relationship that I have now. It's interesting. He's eight years younger than me. Um, but very wise and so supportive and so talented. And, um, I've just never been happier. And I, you know, it's like with relationships, you typically

end up with somebody who is a reflection of where you, where you're at, like in your life and in your level of stability and sense of self. And, um, and so very, very great for my relationship. Um, and I'm, and then the third thing is this new fire. that I feel, like this passionate fire with the things that I'm doing with my career. For the first time and a long time, I feel this big energy of momentum. And I think a lot of it is coming from this permission that I'm giving myself to, like, fully integrate these different aspects of myself into my work and not being afraid. Yeah, I love that.

Thank you. Everyone that's watching this can go subscribe to your YouTube channel. Yes. Where else should we send them? Instagram, for sure. That's, I'm always on Instagram. and yeah, so obviously YouTube and Instagram. Should we point them to your Patreon too?

I think so. So I post a lot of good stuff on my Instagram about my Patreon. But yes, so my Patreon is Celeste Bonin Exo. That's not going to find me there. So good to see you. You too. Thank you. The Dan Bonino show.

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