Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Magician Jen Kramer On Living Your PASSION and Finding The MAGIC In Everything

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Jen Kramer (@JenKramerMagic) is a magician with a headlining show at Westgate Las Vegas Resort and Casino. She joins Chris Van Vliet at the Blue Wire Studios at the Wynn to talk about where her love of magic came from, moving to Las Vegas to chase her dreams, how a magic trick is developed, the Christopher Nolan film "The Prestige", her appearances on Fool Us With Penn And Teller, being inspired by David Copperfield, David Blaine and Harry Houdini and at the end she performs a few mind-blowing tricks! Find out more about Jen Kramer at http://magicofjen.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. For more information about CVV and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Bleas! Greetings and salutations, my friends. Welcome to or welcome back to another audio adventure here on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleet, and a magical episode today with the incredible Jen Kramer, who has a headlining show at Westgate, Las Vegas Resort and Casino. And it was just so awesome to have her come by the Blue Wire Studios in person for this interview at the win and she did some pretty mind-blowing magic tricks towards the end of this.

Like, still trying to wrap my head around exactly how this all happened. But her story of following her gut and chasing her dreams is so, so inspirational. And I know that you're going to take a lot out of this conversation. Give her a follow on social media. She's at Jen Kramer Magic. You can find me at Chris Van Fleet. And I also just hit 20,000 followers on TikTok. So if you're a TikToker, if you're on TikTok, you can find me at Chris.

Van Vleet on there. Our fan of the week is Adam Vaz, V-O-Z, who says, Fuel for the Fire. This show is just what the doctor ordered. I first gave it a listen a few months back, and now I can't stop powering through the back catalog of episodes. CVV's enthusiasm is as genuine as it is contagious. Leave it up to the Canadian to maintain a perfect mix of relaxed, yet, supremely professional interviews.

He really manages to get the best out of his guests episode after episode. And there's some truly powerful life lessons being handed out left and right on this show. Please keep up the great work. Well, thank you so much, Adam. I really appreciate that. I read one review on every single episode from Apple Podcasts, so it'd be so greatly appreciated. If you could leave a few words on there and hit submit. Also, if you listen on Spotify, I don't know if you saw this or not, but Spotify,

but Spotify now has a star rating system, and it takes like, I don't know, a second to do this. So just go to the show, click where the ratings are, click five stars, and boom, that's it. And thank you guys so much for getting us up over 125 reviews in the first week on Spotify. Man, you guys are awesome. You guys are so awesome,

and I can't wait to crush 2022 with you together. I also can't wait to get to this episode. So let's do it. Please welcome the amazing Jen. Kramer. Do all magicians carry cards with them at all times? It's a requirement. Is it really? I mean, we have to sign the magician's oath and agree to carry cards with us everywhere. It's part of the deal.

It's literally your calling card. It is. It's true. You know, I do feel kind of naked without a deck of cards. If I ever go out without one, I'm like, I feel like something's missing. Well, you know, you have one of those occupations where when you tell someone that's what you do, they're like, yeah, well, show me now. Right. Exactly. There's more like, actually, show me. Like, I want to see.

That's true. Or I get the, oh, what instrument thinking I said musician. Oh, wow. That's why I think a lot of musicians. No, no, magician. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But so, like, you have go-to, I'm sure we'll get to this at some point, but you have

go-to, like, if you're sitting next to someone on a plane, would you perform very, like, something for them? Well, oftentimes on a plane, you know, a plane is such a great opportunity to, you know, a plane is such a great opportunity to practice because you don't have distractions. So I'll have my deck of cards and I'll be, you know, practicing new moves. So oftentimes the person sitting next to me, I'll be like, what is she doing? I see me doing all these fun things with cards. Yeah. That might prompt a conversation. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd love to imagine. So wherever I can, you know, I'm always looking to perform and share that with people. Oh, I have so many questions for you, which is why I'm so glad that

you've come by. Like, what a fascinating career choice. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. No, I mean, you're just down the strip, basically. It's true. I mean, pretty much walking distance from the studio here over at the Westgate. Everything's, everything in Vegas feels like walking distance. It's true. Like, you come out of here and you're like, oh, the Luxor, it's just over there. I see it. And then you realize it's like an hour walk. Exactly. An hour later, you're still walking. Yeah. Seriously. How does it go from magic being a passion to actually being something that you can do for a living? So I started learning magic when I was 10 years old.

And it all began when my uncle Steve, who has loved magic for many years. It's not his full-time profession, but he's enjoyed it and studied it for years. And he gave me a book called The Royal Road to Card Magic for my 10th birthday. So ever since I was 10 years old, loved magic. And when I was in college, I think those years for me were really about figuring out, how do I take this thing that I love so much and turn it into a practical reality? How do I kind of work out the specifics and make that happen? So I actually took an internship here in Las Vegas for a magician named Nathan Burton,

who does an illusion show and just had an opportunity to learn about what this Vegas show biz world was all about. And at that point, I had worked, you know, all through middle school, high school, college as a magician. I found at the Yale Magic Society. And so had had many years of experience performing while I was in school and doing all these gigs starting out with my sister's birthday party when I was 11 years old. And I was kind of working my way and ultimately doing, you know, corporate events and private parties and college shows. And in college, you know, doing that internship, moving out to Vegas for the summer, I think that's what really solidified for me that Vegas was a place that I wanted to launch that full-time career when I graduated.

And then once I graduated from college in 2014, I thought, if there is any time in my life to take a risk and go for it and just do this thing that I love, this is the time to do it. So I moved out here and had the opportunity to launch that full-time career, which I'm just really grateful, have the chance to do. And congratulations, because you've been very successful at doing this. And a lot of people come out here. It's kind of like moving to L.A. I think for a lot of people, the goal is like, I want to move to L.A.,

I want to move to Vegas. And then I think a lot of people don't think beyond that. And you've put in the time, you've put in the effort, and look at you now. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. And, you know, I think for me it was just about persistence. It was about not giving up. because when I was in college, you know, when I say work out of practical realities,

when I meant by that is that I knew that when I moved out to Vegas, I love magic, but I also had to be able to make it work. I had to be able to support myself as a magician. And so I knew that when I moved out here, I wanted to have something set. I wanted to have something that I could rely on. And so, especially during my last couple of years of college, I really started reaching out to venues in Las Vegas. and mostly cold calls, cold emails to people who I at the time didn't know,

pitching my idea for a show. And I got a lot of knows. And I think that's an important part of it. Because, you know, for anybody watching who's thinking, oh, sure, you moved out to Vegas and the first thing you try, no, it wasn't the first thing I tried to reach out, you know, to many people. And at the time, you know, in my dorm room in New Haven, Connecticut, I knew that these people didn't know me, that there wasn't that personal connection there.

So if they said, hey, we don't have the budget or we don't have the space or we've never done anything like this before, it wasn't something for me to take personally because it wasn't about me. It's, again, it's just, I think, at a certain point, kind of a numbers game and a not being discouraged game and just, you know, reaching out until you get one yes because one yes is all you need. It doesn't matter if you get 40 nose or 50 knows. Right.

You just need one yes. when you're a musician, there's like a path, right? Like, you could go play some open mics and then maybe you get paid to like, I don't know, play at someone's wedding or you form a band. Like, there's a path there, right? I don't feel like there's as much of a path when you're a magician. How do you, like, how do you make money doing it when you're not headlining at a casino? I think a lot of it is charting your own course.

And in magic, there are so many successful magicians who are successful in very different ways. there are different markets that you can decide to be exclusively a corporate magician performing at corporate events. You can be exclusively a college magician doing shows that are tailored for college audiences or you can do close-up magic or you can do stage magic and illusions or, you know, especially lately you can be a magician who performs online and, you know, some magicians do a blend and do some online performing, some, you know, IRL in real life performing or a combination of both. But I think that's part of the exciting thing about the field of magic and entertainment as a whole is there's so many different ways to be a magician, to be an entertainer, to share that with audiences. And I think that just makes the whole field really rich and exciting.

We kind of skipped over it when you're like, oh, yeah, I formed the Yale Magic Club. Is that what it was called? Yale Magic Society. Yale Magic. Like, we just kind of skipped over that. So, like, you went to Yale, presumably not to study magic. I tell people I went there because Hogwarts, the Harry, you. Potter school wouldn't take me.

But, yeah, I arrived on campus as a freshman, and I remember thinking, okay, you know, this place is gothic architecture. It has those Harry Potter vibes. So I assume there would be a magic group already established. And at the time, there wasn't one. So I found some other magicians floating around campus and started this group, and we were able to meet. And I think that sense of community, I mean, to this day, I love, part of the reason that I

love being in Las Vegas so much is that community of performers. And so, you know, ever since I was 10 years old and first started learning magic, community has been something that I really valued. And I was part of a young magician's group back when I was a kid. So I knew in college that having that community of people to bounce ideas off of and get feedback, give each other feedback, perform together for events in the community, both on campus and in New Haven. We ended up doing actually a cool collaborative trip to India even with magicians without borders, which was one of my favorite, most memorable kind of experiences in magic that I've ever had. So that sense of community is just really cool. What were you studying? So I was a theater studies major.

Right. There wasn't a major in witchcraft and wizardries. You didn't want to get burned at the steak. You had burned at the stake. Right. Right. But what were you planning on getting into? Yeah. I mean, I knew that magic is really what our wanted to pursue. I love that. I love that. What I've always loved ever since I was a kid. So again, you know, I'm just really grateful to have the chance to now, you know, headline my show at Westgate and do this thing that I've loved to do that, you know, that ever since I was 10 years old, I just spend hours and hours in my room practicing these moves and being excited to share them with people. And, you know, I think now it's like I still have that excitement in me to continually

learn and improve and build upon, you know, what I've created so forth. with the show and, you know, just continually make it as strong as I can. Is there a difference between a magician and an illusionist? It's a good question. You're the right person to ask this up. Is there a difference between magic and illusions? So I'm happy with either term. You can call me a magician.

You can call me an illusionist. I think the way that many magicians and illusionists would explain the difference is that illusionists traditionally have done magic that is large illusion based like David Copperfield stuff right exactly like you know making someone appear disappear the you know the sawing someone in half like all of those would be kind of traditionally described as illusions

whereas magic I think is more of a general term it could describe close up magic it could describe stage magic and illusions so for me you know I do illusions in the show I also do some more audience participation themed things and some more sleight of hand. So I'm happy with either turn. I feel like when you talk to a comedian, like when someone tells you I'm a comedian, like, oh, yeah, well, tell me a joke. Like, be funny. And, like, they're not always on or they don't always want to, like, tell a joke. Like we mentioned earlier, when you tell someone that you're a

magician, they're probably like, well, show me something. Does that ever get old? I enjoy it. You know, I'm always working on something new. And so to be able to get that light time as Lance Burton, you know, who is such an amazing, he is such an amazing magician, you know, headlined his show here in Vegas for many years. And one of the things that he would say is the importance of flight time, the importance of being out in the world, getting that real experiences, you know, getting those, excuse me, real experiences for real people. And I think there's nothing that replaces that. That's so valuable getting the chance to kind of pry out the things that you've been working on yourself. Because it's one thing,

to be rehearsing a move and practicing something. But there are some things that similar to the experience that I think comedians have where you can be working on jokes, you can be writing something, you can prepare as much as you can possibly think to prepare. And yet inevitably there are things that you learn from being in front of a live audience. There are moments that there's no other way to truly learn what a magic piece can do what those special moments are within the piece without actually being in front of real people.

And so I think that's one of the valuable things about just getting the chance to perform both on stage, but also just in day-to-day life. You see that experience. So walk me through what it looks like when you have just the germative of an idea for a trick. Where does it go from there? I think every trick is different. But for me, I think about what's the context?

Where do I want to do this trick? because a trick that I'm doing in my Vegas show is likely very different from a trick that I might do for YouTube or for Instagram or for a particular private or corporate event. Like all of these are very different scenarios in which one can perform magic. So I think, okay, what's the scenario? So what's the audience basically? Exactly. What's the audience? And also what's the circumstance?

Am I in a theater? You know, do I have, what do I have to work with in that environment? Am I performing something where it's totally impromptu, where I'm just out and about and I want something I can just have in my pocket and perform any time? Is it for someone specific? And if it is for someone specific, can I, you know, customize it and make it something really special for them about their interests? And I think at that point, once I've figured out, okay, this is where I'm performing it,

this is the context, then I'll kind of think, what's the dream scenario? What do I want the spectator or the audience to experience? and then I can reverse engineer it from there and think, okay, this is the final outcome, this is the dream situation. What are the different possible ways to make that happen? Because oftentimes there are multiple magic methods that could allow a trick or an effect or an illusion to be possible. And then you think, okay, which is the method that is best suited to this context and this

situation? And then it's also just about performance and thinking about, okay, how am I going to present this. And I think that's fun for me is putting all those pieces together, the presentation, the magic, the working on the move itself, but also the, you know, just figuring out all those pieces and putting them into the way. Oh, I love it. What would you say is the timeline, usually? Totally different depending on, depending on what the trick is, what the, you know, how involved a particular trick is. And I think, you know, for me, like I think about the show, for instance. So I do my show at Westgate here in Vegas, which is such a, a special. You know, you know,

special place with such an amazing history. It used to be at Las Vegas Hilton. Before that, it was the international where Elvis Presley performed hundreds of sold-out shows. Crazy. So I'm super thankful to have the chance to do my show there. And when you ask about kind of how involved different pieces of magic art to create, I think about the show and I think about how we've now done close to 450 shows at this one venue at Westgate. And, you know, even though I'm so proud of what we've created with the show, it's always something that is continually evolving. So there are effects, there are routines in the show that I've performed hundreds, thousands of times. Yeah.

And yet I'm still, to this day, after thousands of performances of that routine, I'm still changing things up. I'm still thinking, oh, this would be an even better way to do this. Let's try this. Let's workshop that. let's, you know, think about a different way to present this thing that I've done so many times before. So I think it's, it's fun just to kind of continually think, how do I make this better? Have you ever had a moment on stage where it didn't go as planned? And you're like, oh, my God, how do I get out of this now? Of course. I think, I think any magician who says otherwise is that,

you know, just hasn't had, hasn't had enough shows. I think so you're saying it's inevitable. I think it is. I think, I think part of being a, of professional magician is thinking through all the different ways that you might handle those unexpected situations that in live theater are inevitably going to come out. I mean, that's part of the excitement of live theater is that you don't know there is that element of unpredictability. There are, for example, in my show, there are several routines that are really focused on that audience participation element. And when you involve audience members in the show,

sometimes people say and do completely unexpected things. You know, especially if they're partying and they're in Vegas. Yeah, sure. Give us a good example. Well, let's see. Oh, which one to go to?

There, I remember there was recently an audience member who came to the show and the audience member was participating in the show but I think an and was enthusiastic, which is great. But I think also very much wanted it to be, like, their show.

They just kind of went on this monologue and just kept throughout the show, just sort of going on and on and telling their stories. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't really a heckler situation. It was just something that, you know, might be kind of distracting to the rest of the audience. But I think the thing to remember in scenarios like that is that as the performance, where you have the microphone. So I have, you know, an ear set microphone that's super close to it to my mouth. And so that means that if I'm miced and they're not liked,

if they say something funny or something that I think the audience would appreciate and, you know, would kind of provide value to the show, then I can repeat it in the microphone and it can get a laugh and it can add to the show and it can add to the spontaneity of that particular show. Because I think audiences can sense when something is real, when they're at the show on a particular night when such a. such happened that doesn't usually happen. I think audiences, you know, that, that feels very real and exciting and that's part of what live theater is all about, those moments. But I think,

you know, if the person is saying something that's not really constructive, whether it's, you know, I do, for instance, a family-friendly show. So let's say they say something that's maybe not appropriate for all ages. I can just not repeat that. And beyond the first few rows, the rest of the audience won't have heard what they said. Right. So, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I can repeat it and kind of engage in that banter if it'll help the show, if it'll contribute to the overall show experience. And if it doesn't, I can just, you know, decide to focus on what I want to focus on because I have the microphone and they don't.

So I think, you know, as far as unexpected moments, the main thing for me is just to think about, like, what are the different ways that I might handle this situation and, you know, kind of have a plan A, but then also have a plan B and C and D and E. And I think with all these shows, you gain confidence that no matter what happens, You can handle it. Yeah. Like, you know that. So when I walk on stage, I'm not afraid of those moments because I know, okay, you know,

I've prepared all these different ways that I might handle those different situations. And so, yeah, all kinds of unexpected things happen. Yeah. Part of Live Theater. Do you remember the first big trick you saw that made you go, how? What? Like, what's going on here? There are so many.

One that comes to mind is I remember David Copperfield. Failed's famous flying illusion, which was on one of his television sessions. Yeah. And I just remember the way that he infused such emotion into that and the way that it connected to, I think that very human desire to want to fly like a bird. I mean, I think there is something really beautiful and poetic. And I just remember seeing that and going, wow, that is magical. Yeah.

So that stands out as one of the first kind of moments where I was like, whoa. Yeah, who's the goat to you? Who's the magician goat? David Copperfield is one of them, Penn and Teller, for sure. David Blaine. I mean, there are so many magicians, even the ones I just named Copperfield, Penn and Teller Blaine, are all amazing and are all so different from each other. Right. Which I think is part of the exciting thing is they put their own spin on it, their own style. Is Houdini up there? I mean, because if it wasn't for Houdini, I don't know if you'd have anyone else. He's a legend. Yeah.

And also, he was a real master of ER. I think he really knew how to publicize what he did. I learned so much about the inner workings of magic by watching the prestige. Great movie. Right. And what's the line in there about the every trick has three parts to it? Do you know what I'm talking about? I do.

Yes. It's the like. I remember what you're talking about. I should rewatch it. Me too. I should have written this down. It's something like the promise, the turn, and then the, like you're fulfilling the promise at the end. Right, right. I do remember the... Jeez. And I love Christopher Nolan. I've just absolutely butchered this Michael King quote.

Well, you know what? I think ultimately those three parts, I mean, I think a lot of strong magic. What makes it really strong is that you're connecting with people and that what you're doing involves storytelling and has that kind of beginning, middle, and end. Those kind of three components of, you know, you set something up, you perform it, and then you have that end. And I think that gives people that sense of satisfaction that kind of the story is complete, that you have that whole kind of story arc of a routine or moment. The United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. Soccer Podcast.

My name is David Goss, and I'm joined by my co-host, Megan Klinberg. And now we're giving people an answer. inside look at the World Cup. Time's ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really take their claimant and they want to be on that World Cup roster. There's no doubt about it.

Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer Podcast, presented by Henko. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. As you're coming up, when did you realize, like, this actually might be something that I could do for a living? Do you remember, was there a moment when you were younger

where you're like, it's happening? I think it was gradual for me because I remember, you know, ever since I was 10 and I started learning magic. I started middle school performing at, I mentioned my little sister's birthday party, my cousin's sweet 16, and then my little sister's friends' birthday parties. And then as I went into high school was doing more,

whether it was weddings or bar and bat mitzvahs or corporate events and private parties. And you're getting paid for this. Exactly. I would be doing this on weekends while I was a full-time student and continued that when I was in college. So I think just over the years, I kind of increasingly gained regular performance experience out there at events in the real world. And I think the more events that I did, you know, once you've done hundreds, thousands of events and it sort of has gradually ramped up over time, you sort of gain more and more confidence over time that, hey, I could do this. Yeah. I could really make this work. Yeah.

It's so exciting. Cole in the control room here has filled me in on the thing we're missing from the prestige movie. So thank you so much for this, everyone. Thank you, Cole. So it's the pledge, the turn, and the prestige. I like that. That's way better than what I was saying, which was the promise, and then you do the trick,

and then the promise is fulfilled. That was terrible. Oh, you got to cross the main idea. Good enough that they were able to Google it and figure it out. I like that there. That's a cool way of describing it. And it kind of makes sense, right? But I mean, it's all about the prestige doesn't work in Michael Cain's explanation here if you don't have the first two.

That's a good point. Yeah. Very good point. What do you think is the biggest life lesson that Magic has taught you? Wow. There are a lot of, I think, applicable life lessons from Magic. I mean, I think one is really that we're. you do something you love, I think it shines through. I think that's one thing magic has taught me

is that, you know, being able to do this thing that I really care so much about. Yeah. I think people can sense, like audiences are really smart. And I think people can sense when you're genuinely just really enjoying something that you're doing and that you're genuinely excited to share it with them. And I think, man, magic has, it's taught me so much about about connecting with people at the end of the day because I think that ultimately is what it's all about. That's the reason that I'm motivated to be a magician after I've done magic for all these years. It's the reason I'm still excited to wake up every day and create magic and perform magic is because it really is about that genuine human connection. And I think to be able to connect with

people through something that I care so much about has been awesome and so rewarding. I love that. And I also love the idea that there's magic. like in the world around us. It doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, cards and dice, but like there's just magic everywhere. I mean, it's on your shirt here. I believe in magic. I believe in magic. And that's not just necessarily, you know, what you're doing on stage. Right. It's true. And magicians talk about the experience of wonder and about how when you perform magic for someone and they experience that childlike sense of wonder and they feel like like they did when they were five years old and they were kind of looking at the world through this

lens of everything is new and everything is exciting and everything is different. I think, you know, magic kind of allows people to look at the world through a different lens. So that's a great, that's a great point. There's so much magic just in the world around us. We just have to look around and see it. I'm sure every day you hear, so how did you do that? Tell me how you did that. What's your stock response to that? Magician can't reveal her secrets. That's the stock response? It is. It is. It has. And I think also, it's more fun oftentimes not to know. Well, when you learn how something's done, like it's kind of like when you learn how the

sausage is made, you're like, I don't really like eating sausage anymore. And, you know, that's a very extreme way of demonstrating this. But I think that sometimes you see that the trick has done so simply that you're like, I wish I didn't know that. Because it kind of ruins it for you now. I think just that experience of mystery is valuable, especially, you know, in a world today where information is at the tip of our fingertips, you want to know. know the answer to something, you can Google it.

Like, everything is kind of within reach. Yeah. And I think, especially within that context, it makes those moments of mystery, those inexplicable things valuable. I think being able to wonder about something is, is exciting. You know, you see on a show like Penn & Teller Fool Us, which, you know, I was on twice. Loved, yeah, I've been on the show now.

More than twice? Three times. Which, that's amazing. which was so much fun. And I get super thankful to have the chance to work with Penn and Teller and their team. They're incredible. And, you know, you see the way that Penn and Teller will often react. And I think it's relatable for magicians.

There's something exciting about seeing something that is really deeply fooling. That is really a mystery. And, you know, I've heard Penn say. the show that, you know, it's wonderful to be fooled. I think it brings magicians back to what it's like to be a non-magician and to not know because as a magician inevitably, you know how most magic works. Magic is based on these core foundational principles. So, you know, occasionally something new will come along and it'll fool you, but as a magician you kind of generally know most things. So I think when that occasional new thing comes along or when someone has performed something,

in such an incredible way that you just don't see the principle, even though you've had many years of magic experience, I think there's something really cool about that moment, about being able to see it the way that the audience sees it. There's something special about that. When you go on, fool us is the goal to fool them? You know, I think fooling them is part of the frame of the way that the show is constructed, but I also think that really what it's about,

ultimately is it's a showcase. I think it's an amazing showcase for magicians to perform. And I remember the great Johnny Thompson, who was this legendary. I mean, he was just an incredible magician. He and his life Pam together performed. And he also was just, I mean, so generous and kind to other magicians with a great mentor to me and to so many others. And really an encyclopedia of magic. I mean, he, everything he knew in magic, unbelievable. And I remember him describing it as a showcase. He's like, ultimately, the show isn't really about fooling Penn and Teller. It's really about having the chance to perform for Penn and Teller and to, you know, have this amazing opportunity to present your magic and share it with the world. And I can't speak more highly of Penn and Teller and their

entire team. I think the, you know, the producers that the entire team on the show, want to show magic in a positive light, want to show the magicians in the best possible light. And I think to be able to perform and work with such an incredible team that cares so much about magic, that's so dedicated to sharing it with the public in an amazing light.

And I think that's just, I mean, something that I so appreciate, you know, being able to be on that show and to work with such awesome people. Was there a piece of advice that you got from Penn or Teller. I'm guessing Penn because Teller doesn't speak. So is there a piece of advice you got from Penn

on any of the times you were on the show? Well, yeah, I mean, I've learned so much from Penn and Teller over the years because they perform, the way that they perform is so unique to them. So I don't know if this is a piece of advice directly, but it's definitely something that I've learned from them is to really kind of embrace what makes you, you as a performer.

Because you look at what Penn and Teller have done and the different things that they've done that no other magician had ever done and that they really made it their own. I think that's been amazing. And I think they, I mean, take for example, okay, so they've performed. So much as going through my head.

Bring it. I've admired them ever since I was a kid. Sure. They're amazing. And when they performed their R We Live Act on SNL in the 80s, it was an upside down act. So essentially, you know, in classic Penn and Teller fashion, the illusion was kind of revealed at the end. But, I mean, it's a super, super cool premise, which is that they were hanging upside down with gravity boots from this rig. And the camera was also flipped upside down.

So the camera's rotated 180 degrees. So the studio audience is in on this. They see that the camera and Pennanteller both rotated. But for the viewer at home, it appears that Pennanteller are right side up. So they're doing these things that are made possible by the fact that they're upside down. And yet it looks like real magic. It looks incredible. And so I had the opportunity to perform with a wonderful female magician Amber Lynn Walker.

and we performed together collaborating with Pennanteller and with their team to do a version of this upside down, Are We Live Act. And that was such an amazing experience, so different from any other experience that I've had in magic in that it was very physically demanding. We rehearsed for months hanging upside down with gravity boots from a rig to be able to perform this on Penant Teller Ful us. and, you know, to be able to do this. But that, to me, is one example of Penn & Teller just doing something that is so different

and so creative and so them. And it just fit their performing style so well. And I know I had so much fun getting a chance to work on that and to create kind of a version of that routine, work on it with them and with their, you know, amazing too. So that's just one example of something that they've done. Yeah, I love that. It's really just been so different and so cool. I always wonder on that show when they're whispering in your ear like, is this how you do it?

Couldn't you just be like, no, no, that's not it? No, I do it a different way. It's a good point. There are some amazing, I mean, Penn and Teller, some of the smartest people in magic. Of course, and they've seen everything. That's the whole point of the show. I mean, they're so incredibly smart,

and their team is so incredibly smart too. So there are some magicians behind the scenes who are listening, and those magicians, who are working for the show are, you know, they know how the magic works because, you know, they've worked with the performer leading off to the show so they know. So they can kind of determine also, as Penn & Teller are chatting amongst themselves, you know, they can be listening and determining, oh, did they figure it out. Oh, okay. Fair enough. You know, your stuff has been sitting over here the whole time and I'm just so intrigued. Could you demonstrate some magic for us?

I would absolutely love to. Oh, my gosh. Definitely. Okay. Wow. Let's do it. I don't even know how to sit. I'm just so excited for this.

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. No, thank you. Oh, of course. Of course. So my handy deck of prize here. In fact, would you go ahead and which one would you like to use?

We can use any one of these. Just name that one that you see. We'll use that. Anyone you want. Do I pick it or am I going to tell you which one? It doesn't that either way. Oh my gosh. Okay.

Don't worry. It's okay if I see it. I've seen the trick before. Okay. You have? Okay. So let's see. I'm going to go over here.

Make sure I'm not influencing your choice here. No, you're not. This is the one I'm going to go with. That's the one. The five of spades, everyone. Five of spades. Out of all these different possible playing card options, the five of spades. I don't know why.

It just stuck out. It just called to you. Actually, it didn't stick out to me. Oh, no. She reversed forced it on me. Well, If you like, Chris, you can change your mind. You can pick a different one.

Okay. Do you want to switch it up? I'm going to stick with the five. Stick with the five. Chris, may I ask you for your autograph? Wow. No one's ever asked me for my autograph. Chris, go right across the face.

Right, right across here. Go for it. Okay. So this makes this card completely unique, unlike any other card in the world. I'm guessing you don't have another five of stays with your signature on it. There is. it is. Okay. I do not. And you saw me sign it. So there it is. Yeah, this means that because you've

signed this card, there's no way for me to secretly switch in a duplicate card. If somehow I had all 52 cards duplicates, there's no way for me to do that with your signature on it because you know this is in fact your card from beginning to time. That's my card, my signature. And they also sometimes say that a magician will have something up her sleeves. You're not even wearing sleeves. Did not wear sleeves for this Okay. Purposely. Watch. I'll take your special signed card and I'll bend a corner of that card just like this.

Okay. I'll get a good crease in it. Yeah. Now, Chris, you're sitting right next to me. You can see. I truly am. Yeah, you're bending it. Bending the corner of this card.

I keep in mind, I decided to bend it right after your signature because I don't want to disturb your beautiful signature here. I wanted to make sure to keep that perfectly intact. Okay. And then, Chris, would you like to do the honors and tear off the card? I'll start it for you. Go ahead and really truly tear it off. In fact, we'll do it right by your microphone.

So the audience can not only see it tear, but can also hear it tear. I'm bringing my mic over here, okay? Tear it right off. Did you hear that? Okay. Now, Chris, no joke. You really truly tore off that corner. I did.

Yes. I'm holding it now. All right. Would you like it? I'll take the corner here of your five of Spain. Okay. And I'll place it inside my pocket, right inside my pocket. Okay.

All right. I'll take it invisibly from my pocket. We've got a little crowd here, too. This is great. They're hearing all this. We have like a live studio audience here. Hi. There is intrigued as I am.

Oh, they're waving too. Watch. We'll take the invisible corner. Three, two, no. One. Chris say go. Go. It flies invisibly and fuses right back.

Oh, no. One guy. With your signature, no glue, no tape. And Chris, hold on. This is for you to keep as a souvenir. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

That's pretty great. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. That just, this is sorcery. That's what this is. Thank you so much. Thank you.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. You've also got a dye here. Is there another trick you can blow our minds with? I would love to. How, but how? Magic. Can I say? It's magic.

Aren't you supposed to do like arrested development? That's it. Chris, what would be your go-to, like, magic gesture? Well, what's yours? I don't want to copy yours. Well, it's funny you ask because I remember in college, my sweetmates, the girls who I live with, they would always say, we'd be like in the dining hall or something, and I might pick up, let's say, an apple. And all of a sudden, they'd all turn to look at me. And I'd be like, what? I'm just about to eat an apple. But they said that there was something about the way, and other magician friends have said that they've gotten this as well.

There's something about, I guess, practicing and learning magic that must just carry into the way that you do things in day-to-day life because I'd be picking up this apple and it would feel so normal to me and they'd be like, for you about to do something. And I feel like, no, I'm just eating an apple. I think for me, I think the trademark move, I just go back to Job in Arrested Development. And it's, can't go wrong with that. Right. Classic. And what was, he had a line. It was like, it's not a trick because in something like some sort of hooker joke. Yeah. Allusion. Michael, yes. Bada boom.

Okay. Have you ever thought about being a magician yourself? No. You guys are far too talented. No, I don't have an ounce of the talent that you possess. I mean, you work your own magic. Very, very different kind of, thank you.

That's very kind. It is a very different kind of magic. That's the beauty of it, right? We can all work our own kind of magic. I did get a magic book from my Uncle Bruce. Very similar to your story. Wow. Shout out to Uncle Bruce.

I love Uncle Bruce. I just never did anything like my magic book. And you did. And this is the difference here. These are those intersectional moments in your life. These are those crossroads in your life where one person is very inspired by it. For me, I was inspired by my Fisher Price tape recorder, you know, with like cassette tapes. And I would pretend to be the radio DJs I heard.

And that ended up leading to this career. I love that. Now, do you still have some of those tapes? My mom does. I'm sure they're awful to listen to. But I'm going home for Christmas, so I should go dig some of these up. There you go. So cool.

So cool. I love that. Okay, so you've got the dice here. Yes. So, of course, here in Vegas, you see dice everywhere in the casinos. I pick this one up over at the gift shop. Are you banned from gambling? You're banned from craps?

Like, oh, here comes Jen. You know, I don't gamble very much, but I have heard of it. of magicians being banned. I could see that. Yeah. I can understand. So, Chris, I want you to go ahead and just think in your mind of any number one through six. Now, don't tell me what it is. Okay. But, you know, I want to make sure that our viewers can be in on this. Okay. So what I'm going to do, we have our monitor over here. So I won't look that way. Don't look that way. I'll look over here. And close your eyes. And I'll close my eyes. And Chris, keep me honest. Close your eyes. And close your eyes. And to cover them. Okay, I will close them and cover them. And Chris, you can make sure that I'm not

peeking it anyway. I'll turn around. What number should I pick? Now, whichever one you pick, totally up to you. Let's say you want the number one, Chris? Don't trick me to make the numbers. Oh yeah. Don't let me influence your choice. That's important. Yeah. Well, let's say you want one. Just go ahead and put one face up. That way the camera can get a peek at which number is face up, but then cover it up with your hands before I turn around. That way I can't see it. Okay. So if you want two, put two face up. If you want three, put three face up, whichever you want. Okay. I'm going to turn. I'll turn my back. Okay. She's turning and closing her eyes and all right. I am going to select this one right here, which is, okay, there you go. All right. And I'm covering it up.

Okay. So come on back. Okay. I can turn around. I think I picked the wrong number. Okay. You can pick any number you want. Any number you want. Can I pick 74? Four? Now that would be one of those unexpected scenarios you asked for that. Okay. Okay. So Chris is thinking of a number. One through six. Think about it, Chris. Yep, thinking about it. Okay. Now, don't give me any visible indication of the number you're thinking of. Give me your best poker phase. How's your poker face? We are in Vegas. Oh, pretty good. Pretty good poker face. Okay, think about it. Is this too mean? No, it's perfect. It's perfect, Chris. All right.

Concentrate on that number, but don't give me any visible clues. Could be one, could be two, could be three, four, five, six. Think about it. Okay. Now, I'm about to say something, and when I do, don't give me any clue as to, even if I'm in the right direction here. Okay. But I'm going to say that you're going for a middle number, not an extreme one, meaning not a one, not a one, not a six.

It would be a two, a three, a four, a five. Keep thinking about it. two, three, four, five. Now, my chances of getting this right, I mean, one in six odds of getting your number correct here, but let's see, two, three, four, five. I'm going to go with my gut on this. Chris, are you thinking right now of the number three? Stop it. Stop it. Wow. Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. No, thank you so much. Yeah, there it is.

Right there. You know, Chris, I noticed that you were debating. You thought maybe you'd choose another number. Maybe you'd change your mind. I thought, let's try this one more time. What do you say? We're going to do it again. Let's do it again.

This time we'll kick it up a notch. Okay. Are you ready? Kick it up a notch. Here we go. Let's do it. Okay, so again, I will turn my back. Now, in the control room, I can tell you guys are watching.

So also, I want you guys to keep me honest as well. So as I'm turning around, make sure that I have not peeking in any way. Chris, same deal. Any number you want, put it face up. So the camera can see it and then let me know when I can turn back around. Okay. Now we're going to go with, okay, hold on. I've got to show the camera here. Okay, there we go. And now I'm covering it up. And come on back, Jen Kramer. Okay. You're never going to get this one. Thinking about that number.

What if I picked, what if it, like, while you were turned around, I put a different dye there. Would that have messed everything up? I mean, you could try it. Do you have one with you? I'm not a magician, so no. I don't have a deck of cards that had die with me at all times. Just run over to the gift shop.

All right, because I mentioned we would kick it up a notch this time. Yeah. Now, you noticed last time that I counted through the numbers, and as I counted through the numbers, I was looking at your expression and people sometimes ask, well, as a magician,

are you looking for some kind of a micro-express? Yeah. Some kind of something. Yeah, were you? Because I had a great poker face. You did have a great poker face. I got to hand it to you. Stefan Bonner, UFC Hall of Famer was just in here before, so I was picturing like,

I'm going to have a fight with him. Oh, yeah. Well, I could tell you have like a real intensity in your look. You were focused. You were very focused. So people ask, am I looking for me from a micro expression? So this time, I'm not going to do that whole counting through the numbers thing watching your expression.

Instead, Chris, I'll ask you a couple. of seemingly unrelated random questions, if that's okay. Sure. Based on your responses, I'll just simply do my best to tell you the number that you're thinking of. Okay. Okay. Okay. Tell us all, where did you grow up?

I grew up just outside of Toronto. Pickering, Ontario. Pickering, Ontario. Yeah. And Chris, first thing that pops into your mind right now, what is your all-time favorite food? Pizza. Pizza. Pizza. You can't go wrong with pizza.

It's the best. So good. Chris, what's interesting about this is when you do this with the dice enough, right? I've played this game with the dye. There's enough people and you start to notice these patterns among people. And one of the weird patterns I've noticed is that it seems like people from fickering Ontario who also happen to love pizza always seem to think of the number five. The weirdest thing.

Get out of here. What? Wow, there it is. Number five. Wow. You must made a lot of people from Pickering that like pizza. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Wow. That is incredible. Thank you. No, thank you. I don't, gosh. Every time someone, yeah, there it is. Every time someone does, I don't know, like, I feel violated in a way. Like, did you crawl into my brain? That's my secret. I crawled into your brain. By the way, I have to notice our lovely control. room. You guys are the best. Your reaction was amazing. They all threw their hands up in the air. That was great. You guys are awesome. You made me smile. I have a great view. You guys from here. Oh, there's going to be a heart. Heart back. Heart back. What is, wow, this is amazing.

What's the best way that people can connect with you? So I am on social media at Jen Kramer Magic. That's J-E-N-K-R-M-M-E-R magic on YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Are you on TikTok? I'm not on TikTok. You should take, you know, a page out of Xavier's book. We were talking about him earlier. He's been rocketed. He is great.

He's big of something out on TikTok. He has, absolutely. So you can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, at Jen Kramer Magic. My show is at Westgate here in Las Vegas. And we're on every Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Tickets available on Ticketmaster. And my website is Magic ofGen.com. So Magic.

O-F-J-E-N.com. When Seinfeld came out, did you instantly feel like, oh, my gosh, someone else shares my last thing? Pramer. Yeah. People ask me all the time if I'm related. No relation. No relation to this fictional character.

Exactly. Do people tell you you look like Anna Kendrick all the time? I've interviewed her many times and I'm getting so much like Anna Kendrick vibes. Well, thank you. I take that as a compliment. She's lovely. I don't think she can do very good magic, though. You never know.

I mean, she's awesome, so I wouldn't put it faster. She could be secretly an amazing magician. She could. Although very curious now, what is the greatest magic movie? Ooh, there are so many. There are. Prestige is one of my favorites. I should re-watch it.

It's been a few years since I've seen it. You reminded me about how great that movie. And the prestige at the end of that one, I don't want to give it away for anyone who hasn't seen. it, but the prestige at the end, you're like, oh, how did I not see this? The whole movie's the magic trick. It's true. It is a beautiful film. I mean, now you see me movies have been great. Yeah. There's so many great, you know, so many great magic movies and TV shows, I feel like magic in the last few years, especially, it's been kind of in the public consciousness in such a cool way.

Yeah. And as a magician to be able to see magic on TV and in movies. Yeah. And the different ways that magic is portrayed. I think it's been, yeah, it's definitely been kind of in media in a cool way. Yeah, like David Blaine and Chris Angel really kind of took it to another level with like the street magic. Definitely. And I think the way that they performed magic for people that felt very raw and very up close and, you know, people knew that there weren't big boxes or mirrors or things on stage that could, you know, that they weren't, they weren't sitting in an audience many feet away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was right in front of someone's eyes. And I think...

Just like this today. Geez. You've blown my mind. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming by. Oh, thank you for having me. This is so much fun. And I think one of the biggest pieces of magic in the world around us is the magic of gratitude.

So I end every conversation with this. So I will ask it as we wrap this up. What are three things in your life that you're grateful for? I am so grateful for the people. of my life for my family who are wonderful, my friends, the amazing crew that I work with on my show at Westgate, who are like family. I'm so grateful for the people in my life, so grateful for health. I mean, that makes everything else possible. And I'm so grateful to have the chance to do this thing that I love so much and to make that my profession and to be here in Las Vegas,

which is such a magic mecca. And just to be able to share something I love so much with audience. I love it. And you are just like the embodiment of passion. And I love how you're living your passion. Thank you so much. I back at you. Thank you. And thank you so much for coming by. Thank you for having me. This has been great. All right. I know those magic tricks sounded awesome on here. But if you have some time today, check out the videos. I posted them on social media at Chris Van Fleet. Of course, you can find Jen at Jen Kramer. She's an amazing follow. So please make sure to check her. out, it just gets me so excited to talk to someone who's incredibly passionate about something and then, you know, chases after it no matter what, whether it's magic or sports or wrestling or a career

in comedy, whatever it is. If you couldn't tell, it just gets me so jacked up. And that's what this show is all about. It's about chasing your dreams. It's about finding your passion. Ah, I'm so excited for 2022. It's going to be so good. I'm going to leave you with this quote from, W. B. Yeats, who says, the world is full of magic things, patiently waiting for our senses to grow sharper. I love that idea that magic is all around us. It just takes a, sometimes it takes a second to stop and be able to see it. The world is full of magic things, patiently waiting for our senses to grow sharper. Be great. Be grateful. We'll see you on the next one for some more insights. side. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand

bands trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Allie. Follow and listen on your favorite Form.