Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Mike Chioda on his WWE release, working for AEW, his favorite matches to ref, Vince McMahon

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Referee Mike Chioda joins Chris Van Vliet from his home in Tampa, Florida. He talks about being released from WWE after 35 years, working for AEW, the differences between refereeing in WWE and AEW, his favorite matches, what he learned from Vince McMahon, his podcast "Monday Mailbag" on AdFreeShows, the ring collapse spot with Big Show and Brock Lesnar, his advice for someone who wants to be a referee and much more! Submit your Blue Wire Hustle application here: http://bwhustle.com/join  If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to https://chrisvanvliet.com  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram:instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter:twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook:facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube:youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, y'all? It's Druski, and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Do Zone with Drusky. Learn the backstories of your favorite ballers and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around that time? Come on, bro. I ain't that old, fam.

You're talking like I was 50. Taylor, Roach, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to the Doozone with Drusky on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. So before we dive into this episode, I want to tell you about Blue Wire Hustle. It's a brand new program where you could host your very own podcast here at Blue Wire. Hustle was created to give everybody the opportunity to take your podcast to that next level. Or if you've always wanted to host a podcast and you didn't know where to start, hustle is the perfect

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So get your application in today. To apply, just go to BWHustle.com slash join or check out the description box of this episode to find out more. But once again, it's BWHustle.com slash join. Well, here we go. How are you? Welcome to Insight. You're doing good? All right.

Well, if it's your first time here, I'm Chris Van Fleet. I'm an Emmy award-winning TV host, and I'm fascinated with finding out how people are wired to achieve greatness. On each episode of Insight, we have in-depth conversations and we reverse engineer the habits and techniques of the world's top athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, you name it. If they're the best at what they do, I want to get their insight so we can apply it to our own life. And when you think of referees in pro wrestling, there's a few names that immediately come to mind. Earl Hebner, Charles Robinson, Nick Patrick, and of course, Mike Keota. And if you think right now of your five favorite WWE matches of all time,

there's a pretty good chance that Mike Kyoto has reft. I'm going to say most of them. He's been in the game for 32 years, which is why it came as such a surprise when he was released during the COVID cuts on April 15th last year, especially because he was the only referee that they let go. But his story of paying dues and traveling from city to city

and setting up the ring is incredibly insubrously. inspiring. Plus, he has so amazing stories about my favorite match of all time. I only talk about this match, you know, every single time I'm interviewed. Rock Hogan, WrestleMania 18 in Toronto. I was there. 16th row. The ticket is still framed above my desk. I love it. I love it. Take a screenshot. Let us know that you're listening to this one. Tag me. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Tag Mike on Twitter. He's at MJC. Kyoto. That's C-H-I-O-D-A. And if you haven't subscribed yet, take a second right now to click subscribe or click follow wherever you're listening to this right now.

A big thanks to Fossey Fanatic in the UK for this review on Apple Podcasts. He says, quality guaranteed. Anytime I see a new CVV interview has been released, it's a no-brainer that this is going to be a much watch and much-hear, insightful interview. Chris's interviews always bring something new to the table. No matter how many times I've seen these interviews with other guests, or different people, Chris always brings out new information from them that hasn't been revealed in other interviews, which is no easy feat to do consistently. His casual conversation tone and

friendly demeanor with guests leave them willing to naturally open up, which gives the listener the feeling that they're more of a fly on the wall in a conversation between friends rather than a person listening to an interview. Keep up the great work and very happy for your continued success. Very much deserved and very much earned. Well, thank you, sir. Well, that is a very, that review, I always say it takes 27 seconds to write a review. That one might have taken like 227 seconds. So thank you, Fossey Fanatic.

Fossey, great band. Love Chris Jericho. I appreciate the kind words. And I'm going to keep reading one review on every single episode until we get to 2,000 reviews. We're getting close. As I sit here right now, well, I'm actually standing right now. As I stand here right now, we're at 1731. So we're closing in.

just 269 more to go. So please keep them coming. I've got to tell you, it was such an honor and a pleasure and a privilege to talk to my guest today. Ladies and gentlemen, the legendary Mike Keota. Man, what a background you have there.

That is, this is incredible. I feel like we're in the referee Hall of Fame right here. Somewhat, I mean, I got like tons of autographed stuff. Like, I just moved in Tampa like a year ago. Okay. So, and like, I was going to, I'm doing, I'm in a process doing like my one single car garage, like all wrestling member of billi, and started doing some podcasts out of the garage here. I wanted sports and all my member of billi.

I got so much stuff. It's like Razor Ramon posters. I signed back in a day. And I never was a mark for all that stuff. But I figured I better get some stuff signed, you know, after so many years. Sure. Guys come and go, you know, and I've gotten quite a bit of stuff. I saved over the years, so I have a hell of a collection.

So where were you living before Tampa? Texas for about 13 years. Okay. Well, you're, I mean, this is smart from a tax standpoint. You're going from a tax-free state to another tax-free state. Yes, tax-free state plus as well, like the bigger homes for your money. Oh, my gosh. You know, I love Florida and I love Texas, you know.

I'm from New Jersey. So, you know, I miss New Jersey, but I don't miss the winners and stuff there anymore. And the travel experience is going on. I hear you. So what is this jersey that's behind you? It looks like it's autographed. Yeah, that's autographed from, uh, from the Rock and Hulk Hogan. Oh, man.

Well, then let me, let me show you a little bit of memorabilia. So let me, by the way, start by saying, I'm from Toronto. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I was in attendance for my favorite match of all time. Wow. Which is also, yeah. Rock, that, check that.

Yeah. See the, um, the, um, the what-a-a-a-a-oh-old. bash that was from the this is from the uh the front newspaper Toronto Sun yeah and that was with me in the corner with Hogan up on the top of Rob. Oh man and then the one above it was another was the examiner the national examiner um and I got stuff from other and then down here is like a picture of me over Hogan I don't know if he could probably oh yeah yeah yeah yeah right there um and And I got stuff from like South Africa, the front page in 95, 96, with Taker and Brett. Wow.

Aldermar Toya giving the splash off. That was in front of newspaper over there. This is amazing. Yeah. And like the Rocks signed that on Smackdown. I got to sign that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was one of my favorites, man, you know.

Well, how could you not love the Rock? He's my favorite as well. I imagine we'd talk about this later in the interview, but since you brought it up, Rock Hogan is such a special match to me. I was 18 years old. I was there in attendance, sitting in the 16th row, fully thinking I'd be cheering for the Rock,

and then Hulk Hogan came out, and all of a sudden we're cheering for Hogan. Brother, that was just, that was the phenomenal thing. I mean, like in this one part of the picture, like, where I have on my Twitter account, it's like I'm standing there watching Rock and Hogan in the center and it was like we didn't do anything we had the people on the entrance on the entrance that's just in the way Toronto like in Canada has been such a

an awesome crowd for wrestling so much respect for wrestling and look at all the great talent that came out of Canada you know over the years that I've witnessed that is just every guy that came from Canada could work you know and just knew how to tell a story you know how to sell knew how to just you know between jericho to edge christian brett hart owen heart all these guys who just goes on and on the list you know yeah but much much respect for that that night man was just unbelievable and you're one of them i mean you're right they didn't touch for the first several minutes of that match how much of that was planned how like how long did you know they'd be they were

going to be doing that stare down for no no no that was not planned they didn't they didn't know what the reaction was and then go to the point where you know i talked to chris jerry and i remember jericho all day like he thought that match should have been on last well it shouldn't yeah that was on third last which people don't remember and i mean jerry i'm we're going back almost 20 years with jericho he knew he was like there's there's no way we should be following this match you know and i didn't just you know and it didn't have to be like some was it going to be some high flying maneuver wrestling match it wasn't going to be a real wrestling technical match, you know, it was just going to be icon against icon, and it really tore the house town.

And I mean, they just had the people from the start to the finish. I mean, people were so wiped out after that match. It was just like all the energy was taken out after that match, you know. Yeah. And then it went to the women's match. And then it went to Jericho versus Triple H for the title. That's correct. Yes.

Wow. Now, Hogan told me a story off camera, and I want to corroborate this with you. Sure. He said he had no idea that the NWO was going to turn on him. He said that you got communication in your earpiece that Hogan had to stay in the ring. And he's like, oh, that's weird. I didn't win the match. But he stayed in the ring.

And that's when the NWO came down and beat him up. And he said that it was completely called at the moment. Right. Well, I mean, you know, I remember them coming down. And I remember them being back there. So that was a question on whether they decided how that match went and where they wanted to go for the next year or so with Hogan, you know, which they did go a different direction after you know, you know, so that was a call on Vince McMahon's part, I believe, you know,

and, you know, like, they always say like, don't let the crowd dictate the wrestling business or your match or you in the ring. You dictate the crowd, which I'm a firm believer of, but that night you had no choice. The crowd dictated the match and dictated probably where that match should have been in the card. And then it dictated where they were going to go with Hogan for the next several months or a year. Yeah. I still get goosebumps when I think about that.

I can't even imagine being in the ring there. Oh, it was amazing. I mean, I actually really marked out at the beginning of it out. I was just, when they were staring at it, it was in a stare down. And I just marked out just like looking at it, like going, God, this guy Hogan has carried the torch for so many years. Now he's passing it on to the rock, you know? and then I thought I was going to have several more years

with the rock in the ring, but then he took the torch and went to Hollywood. When you rang the bell in that match, you were jacked up, like you were circling the ring like you were in the match. I was into it, man. I mean, I was probably a couple red bulls or something. At that time,

even though it was going to be like a 25, 30-minute match, not a 45-minute match, you know. But I was ready, man. I mean, it was just, and I like to ring the bell with authority. You know, I like to really swing it, you know, and just instead of going, or, you know, like, give me a bell, you know,

I really get into that. And I, you know, that's one thing Vince did like about what I did there to start a match because I was intense. Because, I mean, why not bring that intensity to a title match into it, you know? I mean, there was points where I was like checking the wrestlers still, you know, at some points, checking the boots, checking the waist, check this,

just, you know, a little rundown, you know. I mean, it's like, you know, like UFC gets in the ring. They check their gloves. They checked their tape. They check this. And, you know, we got away from that, too, you know. But because we found out there's not enough time to check the wrestlers and all that stuff. You know, sometimes I used to like to add a little bit of the old-school stuff and, you know, do my own thing with the two and so forth.

You know, I mean, I just didn't want to be the same as everybody else. You were allowed to have some personality. You were allowed to kind of showcase what. made you different from the other refs. That seems to be really lost now. True. True. It is, you know, like I was, you know, we were allowed to have our names exploited on TV for a long time.

We were allowed to do a little bit more things on TV. You know, and it's toned down because they just watch, like, and you have to be like kind of biased, of course. You know, you can't, you know, you got to do exactly to the baby face as you're doing to the heel. Yeah. You know, and like, they always say, like, a lot of. referees tend to always get just get on a heel when they're doing something in the corner and this snap but when the baby face turns it around they let the baby face go it's like why you let the baby face go he's doing the same thing to yield it right around on him but he wouldn't get out of the corner because he's

punching them 10 times you got to get on the baby base too as well yeah so you got to be biased you know like it's kind of you know as far as you got to just do your job yeah yeah it's it's so interesting because it used to be referee Mike Kyoto is, you know, like checking on this, whatever. Now it's just the official. Right, exactly. And, you know, like I went to A.W. In August and October, it worked down there for a little bit with Cody and stuff and Chris Jericho.

And God, J.R., like he did years ago, you know, plug in my name. And my family was like, oh, my God, my wife was like, God, babe, it's the first time I've heard your name in years on a TV anymore. And I said, well, you know, what do you? going to do, babe? I said, I appreciate AEW doing that for me. They did it in like a few times I was on TNT with them

or paid with you and the WWE hasn't done it in years, you know what I mean? But it was just, you know, one thing where I think a referee's name was being said too much on TV one night and Vince just said that's just too much information I need to know and who is this guy, what's his

name? Who is that name? And they said it's the referee and he didn't really recognize the name to the referee in the ring he goes, oh, God damn it, I don't want to hear. Nobody's, nobody's saying the referee's name no more. Oh, is that my name too, Vince? And it became

delete, delete, delete. So you mentioned AEW. Were you surprised that they gave you a call? And who was it that got in touch with you? Cody did. Cody and Chris Jericho got in touch with me and everything. And I really appreciate that.

Actually, Cody got in touch me a couple weeks ago, so I'm to hear something so okay no they're still hoping i got a good two three more years left than me you know oh you got more than that come on yeah i do but you know i don't want to be that like you know triple h came to me a few years ago and said hey he's like you know hey kiotta like you know moving in a different direction in the company yada yada yada yada you know i don't want to see you like an earl heather being in a ring for 60 65 years old and i said no i don't want to be that way either i feel like I've accomplished everything I can in this business. Sure.

Would I like to work with this new upcoming talent, Seth Rollins, Roman Raines, and all these, you know, sure, you know, Kevin Owens and all that. And but I said, yeah, my time, whenever my time is. And that's why my wife got cancer, it took a while, because we had some good MDA Anderson hospitals in Houston. Yeah. So it took a while for me to get down to Florida.

But then when I got down to Florida, I got released. So I had no idea. I thought I was going to make a transition to go to the PC center in Orlando. Yeah. And train the referees, which I was doing when I got hurt. I was hurt from August to 2019,

ready for WrestleMania in 2020. But then I got to call at April 15th. So, you know, so I was just dumbfounded. I was shocked. I was shocked, that's for sure. Well, I mean, when you look at everybody who was released on April 15th,

I think I speak for everybody when I say that you were the most surprising release. Yeah, well, it was, you know, and I was, you know, I'm not saying, hey, I'm the only guy that got released and there was many much, there was people behind the stage and everything. But when you're the only referee, all the referees in the WWE and the most experienced, you're thinking, okay, where did I get my heat when I had bicep surgery, rotator cup at the same time. Dugis did my surgery in October of 2019. I needed about a good six months to heal from both. The bicep took longer than a week. rotator cup.

So, I mean, it was just, I was healing well, going to physical therapy, going down to the PC as well for physical therapy, because it's only an hour and a half tried from Orlando or Tampa. Yeah. We're going over some things with the referees down to NXT, and I was doing PT with Terra down there, and boom, get a call April 15th during the pandemic. And I went, got to be kidding me. Wow.

Yeah. Now, it's the injury, like a refereeing-related injury? Well, yeah, it was. I took a bump. I remember Elias, he had pulled me out of the ring on one match. It wasn't his fault because you're counting and then grabs your foot, slides he out of the ring. That's supposed to be kind of a belly bump, but then bumps can go anyway, either way. So I landed on the shoulder, which I tore my labrum and then tore something else in there. And then I did like two gauntled matches the next month. And that's where I, that's where like the injury from. From here, Duke is said from the labrum, went into the rotator cuff, and that's where you tore your bicep at some point because I didn't know. And it probably doesn't help that that's the arm that you're using to count. Yeah, for many years.

That's the money right here. Not this, it's this. The one, two, threes. Yeah, and then the false finish is on two. Nobody does the false finish better than you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I used to pride in doing that. took a lot of pride.

You know, when you can get that crowd to stand off their feet and you get thousands of people to rise up, that means I did my job as well. You know, like if you can, and he used to communicate with the boys too. Okay, keep it close, get it close, and talking as I'm counting. Go, you know, and you just come down for that three

and swipe it under your, you know, under your chest and everything and just get up and you see that crowd just rise like it was three. It's like it made you feel good as a referee doing your job good. Yeah. If we take the back, go like this and they stop, you know, some guys, yeah, it's just don't get that full effect when you come under, you know? So there's tricks and traits to that, you know.

Yeah, if we take this back, Mike, so you grew up in Jersey. Yeah. The plan was you wanted to be a wrestler. Well, you know, I wanted to and Girl of Monsune changed my mind there. And, like, you know, I grew up with Joey Morella from Wollingboro, New Jersey, in South Jersey, he's about 20 minutes outside of Philadelphia next to Cherry Hill, New Jersey. And we grew up in the same township, and I worked for Gorilla. And he was just giving me words of wisdom.

You know, it was just very good advice. And he said, longevity in this business is referee. What do you think I'm telling my son? And I'm going to tell you the same thing. And when he found me out there in the ring, when I used to set the ring up and he'd come out, he'd be an agent or at TVs and I'd be wrestling around with the boys in the ring and snaps suplex and this and that he was what are you doing I said well I just learn how to bump really you know he goes the referees don't bump like that you know he was he was you know he was you

want to be a wrestler you want to be a referee and I said a referee sir I said I'd rather be a referee so I'm definitely taking your advice gorilla longevity is refereing because he's explained it to me you can have a career like he brought up some of the boys for 10 years years and make a good run. But you could be a referee for 20, 30 years possibly if you do it right and keep your head on straight. And I did, you know, so I mean, and God, what great advice and that, 31, 33 years of rep, 31 years on TV, you know, and 35 years with the company.

Yeah. But, I mean, you were, you were road warrior during that time. You're on the road. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such an underappreciated job, a referee, a ring announcer, and a commentator. are such underappreciated jobs. That's very true, man.

That's very true. You know, and I don't know why that is, you know, because, you know, when you watch football, you want to see the certain announcers do the Super Bowl, or you want to see the certain announcers do baseball. Yeah. Joe Buck's doing this one or that one's doing this. And, you know, it was like Howard CoSell and John Madden doing football back in the day,

you know. So, and they were always appreciated really good, you know. but I mean like Michael Cole does a fantastic job. Agreed. He does a fantastic job. So I mean, you know, when announcing and stuff. But yeah, we are. I think sometimes, especially the referees are a little bit, a lot more under than the announcers.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're on the road just as much as everybody else. So I'm really curious. You're on the road that much. It probably starts to wear on you. Is there any point during those 31 years with WWE where you went? I don't know if I can keep doing this.

You know, at some point you get frustrated and you say, God, should I open up my own business? Should I do this? Should I do that? But then, you know, you just, you get prone to it. Like, you were just becoming like a zombie to it. Get in at two or three in a morning. Catch your 6.30 flight. Get two hours sleep in a hotel.

Maybe not even two hours, you know. Take your flight home. Come home after a 17 or a 20-day road trip. You'd feel like ass. You know, I mean, you too. You were just like you took you a day or two just to adjust when you got back home. You know, my wife always used to say, Jesus Christ, you're so nice on the phone. When you come home after 18 days, you're like, miserable.

Go back on the road. Yeah, I just got home. Yeah. But it was tough. It was tough. How do you make a marriage work when you're on the road that often? Well, that's why like, you know, my wife, she's been very supportive, married to me for the last decade. I've been married to Meredith for 10 years, and she's from Texas.

And, you know, and I wasn't married. You know, I was married one time for a little while in 2005 from a girl in Germany. But my father got sick at a young age. And my whole thing is that that's what I didn't want, get married have kids. You're on the road 20-something days a month, not have that strong enough wife to hold down the fort and out at the home. And it hurts us to maybe say, hey, I can't deal with this anymore. And then I had kids over here, kids over there. And for many years, I was focused on helping my mother because my father took a stroke in 84.

He passed away in 2000. God bless. And I just had to help my mom and pay for her house off, help my sisters get through college, which accomplished all that, which was phenomenal. And the company for 35 years, you know, I have no hard feelings on Vince, you know, that's for sure. Vince, Linda, Shane and Stephanie, no, no hard feelings with them at all. You know, they did give me 35 years of work. You know, why do you let me go?

Was I too old? Was this? I don't know. So somebody had to get it approved, but, you know, it happened. So, it's got to move forward. When your dad has a stroke at such a young age, when you're relatively young, do you start to like take over those roles? the household then?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it wasn't my dad was a bad person at all or nothing like that or they were getting a divorce. He got sick and took a massive stroke. So he had to learn everything back. It wasn't just a minor stroke.

It was massive and not, you know, his whole couldn't work no more. So Social Security checks weren't cutting it. Then I became 18. You know, I was working in a machine shop for a couple years at that point, building test missiles for the Navy. White Harpoon missiles. I was a good machinist and welder and everything. But then I wasn't making

enough money when my family needed it. My mom had to go out and clean houses. And so she did that from several years after that. So I had to step up and I had to be the man at a house. So what did I know better when I was like 16, 15, 16 in the summertime? And on the weekends, working the local from Gorilla Monsoon, he owned his territory from Vince Sr. And this is before Vince Jr. took over everything, Vince McMahon. So we used to work, I used to make 500 bucks a night. In the 80s, that's huge. It was huge.

It was huge. I was paying my mom's mortgage. I was helping her, you know, this. I was after the fact that I got sick, though. So I went back to wrestling. And I asked girl, I said, is there any way I can get back in wrestling? So I did. And at that point, Terry Garvin was just taken over.

So I went on a trial period for a year with Tony Chimel in a ring truck, and I became an employee. And then a couple of years later, Chief Jay made me a referee. And I was making great money, you know, doing wrestling again. And it paid the bills for my family. How do you make 500 bucks a night before working for WWF? Okay. So when I worked for Grillo, we did,

did shows in the spectrum, Wildwood, New Jersey, and the summertime, every Monday night on the convention center in the boardwalk. It held like 1,200 people, but I would sell 1,500 programs. And I remember, like, I make 50 bucks

setting up the ring, 50 bucks time keeping, 50 bucks playing music, 50 bucks taking Robs, so it was 200 bucks. Arnie Schullet was the agent. Big cigar playing gin, you know, Andre over there, asking me to go get vodka

and wine. and stuff like that. And I'm going, Andre, I can't do that. You know, I'm not even old enough. You're like, Toyota. Paul Roman, a bunch of boys. How would you, you know, I remember Stephen Barty, you can't say no to Andre.

And I'd be like, you gotta be kidding me. I'm like, I'm not even older. How would you get alcohol if you're drinking now and it's a teenager? I'd sit at the liquor store and ask somebody to get me a case of bonebrow or Mickalove or whatever. Yeah. And he's like, well, that's what you gotta do now. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.

So Andre would hand me 100. I would go there. Yeah, and I'd be like, oh, my God, if this guy robs me, I'm going to be pissed. I got to, you know, this guy can't rob me, you know, and I'm like, you've got to get this kind of vodka. You've got to get this kind of French wine. You got to get this. So I'd get it. Come back.

He'd take me 50 bucks. But then when I sold programs, they were a dollar piece. Andre would be on the cover, Rick Martel, Tony Garrea, Big John Stud. People used to buy just like from Andre, you know, like, it wouldn't even go to show. buy a dollar program. So if I sold 2,000 programs, I was making like 10 cents off the dollar, which didn't sound like nothing. But when 10 cents off the dollar, you sell 2,000 programs, that's 200 bucks there. Right. So I did that at intermission. Then before the show, intermission, and a blowout, you know, after the show. Yeah. And I would sell two to three

thousand programs at these venues, spectrums, especially Salisbury, Maryland, here, New York. and that's how I made 500 bucks a night. And all this cash, I go, holy crap. Like, you know, because Joey didn't want to sell programs, you know. Dick Worley was the referee, Dick Kroll and then venues, Joey was, and so forth. And, you know, I was the young kid. I had to sell the programs, you know. But I was making great money.

And when the first night I did, it made that much money. I was like, I'll do it every night. Well, you've got the right attitude. I mean, everything that you're describing. is basically it just shows that you have a real great work ethic. Yeah, yeah, you had to hustle. And that's the thing too. I've been working since I was 13 years old.

And this is like my dad used to own a country club and a golf course and everything. And he made me a dishwasher at 13. So he paid me 335 an hour. I got a check. And I worked, even though it was illegal to work at that age, but I was working for my father. Right. So it was, you know, and this is all before he had a stroke and all that. So, and so I mean, I was working since I was 13.

I did that 13, 14. And I was a prep cook at the restaurant in the country club. Then I went, worked at I was 16. I worked with the famous Burlington Coat factory. You ever hear of the Burlington Co factory? Of course. Well, in Burlington, New Jersey, which was the next town over. That was the original Burlington Co factory.

No way. So if you ever look in my closets, they're all organized and everything's all because I was a stock boy and I had to put everything. the right way for you know but i imagine that this work ethic is what led you to be so successful in w w i think so as well too yeah my father was always work work work the money's not going to come to you you have to go get the money sure so and you know it's just all about hustling and that's that's what it takes it does take a strong person to get up every day not only just to travel for these hours and get to the next city in Europe and here and there.

But then to perform your job at night and then do it all over again for 17, 18 days in a row. Yeah. Beyond just working hard, what do you think really attributed to your longevity and your success in WWA? Make sure you don't miss your flights. Get along with everybody, your co-workers, I would assume. And just make sure you're getting up every day,

not missing your flights, being on time for, work. And especially when I took pride in, we've never, Tony and Chimelai, we never missed a ring crew spot. Never. Never was able to tell Vince we can't make it to the show. Because, I mean, you can't have a show without a wrestling ring. You know, I mean, it's just, you know, so that's what we took a lot of pride in because we never missed town. We did double shots on Saturdays, where we used to like have a show at 12 1 o'clock and then we had 80 miles to drive we'd get there at five six o'clock and then all the union guys would be ready or something and you know at the building and boom boom that ring be up by 7 645 boom there you go and I mean it was to ring bicycle racks

and pads you know yeah but we used to get that up in less than an hour and as soon as you started 7.38 o'clock and I don't think people realize that Tony Chimwell was the one who was driving the ring truck right Tony and I always drove the trucks And we just, and like one, sometimes we'd have a steel cage truck with us, you know, or another ring with us or other equipment, you know. But, yeah, we took pride in that. And me and Tony, like, we used to do 250 miles and buy 250, I'm done. You take over.

And I got to give a lot of credit to Tony because he was with the company for 38 years before they released him. You know, and he did. He helped me because I was a young kid. he was about 22. I was 18 when I went full-time. And he was always, you know, he provided and helped me and taught me the ropes to as well with Joey. Yeah. So is Tony the person that you traveled with the most, you'd say?

Yeah, for 22 years. Wow. So I'd say about 20 to 22 years we'd travel until they took the ring trucks away. And then became big corporate, like 18 wheelers. The tractor trail, yeah. Exactly. So then were you still traveling? Tony at that point too? No, he kind of went into, you stopped ringing out and then he went in

more in production and then just doing TVs and production and so forth. And then I was still doing road stuff. Sure. And at that point, who did you start traveling with? A bunch of guys, man. I used to travel with Test, manga, Ray Mysterio all the time. There's a ton of guys I traveled with Epico Primo, R-Truth. over the years. Jack, formerly known as Jack Swagger, Jake Hager now. So he actually lives 20 minutes for me too, so I get talked to him a lot, see him a lot. So it's really, come on, everybody lives in Tampa. You probably 20 minutes from Chris Jericho as well.

That's true. That's right. That's true. And his palatial estate that he lives in. Yes. Palatial waterfront estate. But you want to talk about hustling and just doing it all is Chris Jericho. Yeah. Love him for that. I mean, whether it's Fossey, rock and roll,

doing shows on a cruise ship, doing this, doing that, he's just a go-getter. I love his energy, man. Yeah. What advice do you have for someone who wants to break into the industry as a referee? Man, just, you know, the advice might change a little bit now because I don't know where with the pandemic and everything. Sure.

Well, let's pretend the pandemic is over. Let's pretend. Well, you have to have a strong, strong, like, you've got to be on time. You can't miss your flights. You can't party too much. And you got to do your job first. You know, and you have to have a strong household at home, take care of the family, if you have a family. Because, you know, you got a woman taking care of the kids 20 days a month alone on a road, some days a month.

Whether it's birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Thanksgiving, or whatever. I mean, it was just, you know, holidays are definitely not a day off in this business. Yeah. So where does it begin, though? If I'm an 18-year-old kid and I want to become a referee, what is step number one that I need to take? Step number one. As of right now, I would tell a young kid to go to the PC center. Okay.

They have an awesome training facility there. And that's where you're going to learn quicker. You know, you could spend 10 years on the Indies. and not really still not do it the way the WWE wants to do it or AW or anybody. But right now, I mean, I do got to say you'd have to go down to the PC center. And that's what I've been telling kids. You've got to get to the PC center. And if you can get in there and get trained right, you know.

But has that been a thought in my mind? Like, hmm, should I open up a school with some of the couple of the guys and think of something like that? You know, I'm thinking about it. You're in the right place. There's enough wrestling schools around there that you could just say, when you're not wrestling training, can I use the ring for? Actually, they could be together too. That's correct.

And so, I mean, I'm thinking about that path. But then I'm thinking of myself, how many guys want to be a referee, how many people really do want to be a referee, you know? And it stinks because, you know, if referees were getting so much respect or, you know, they were considered this or considered that, As talent, you know, like, I would say, yeah, get that job. But I'm kind of like, because, you know, if you're a referee for the WWE, you can't collect royalties. They don't put you on a game.

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while you're working there, that would help you out a lot. You have to remember, like, the average referee probably makes about $125,000. Now, I'm not saying, that's great money. That's great money. But if you consider $30,000 a year in expenses, as far as hotel, car, fuel, food, so forth, and in taxes, we're only coming home in about $60,000.

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professional. In fact, so many people have been using BetterHelp that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. So the special offer for anybody listening to Insight right now is 10% off your first month. Just go to Better Health. help.com slash insight. That's BetterHelphelp.com slash insight. You were in one video game, right? You were in the Smackdown game? Yeah. I didn't. Take it right. Once I talked to Johnny about it, Laurenitis. And it was just a little while after that. And I said, you know, Johnny, I'll split the royalties with some of the other reps. That have been here for a long time. Yeah. Not just these guys that want to come in for a year or two, have no respect.

for the business or don't want to really learn or, you know, and whatever. I said, I'll split the guys who served like Charles Robinson, this one. But, and then I was taken out and they put, they put some guy in the office, paid him like $2,000, and they just used him as a referee in a video game. And the most popular game in the world in professional wrestling, the WD. Yeah. And they put some, and I'm thinking.

I was thinking, that's where it really hurt to. I was like, wow. Okay. So you're saying, you know, you make $125K, but you can't get any extras. The wrestlers can sell merch. The wrestlers can get the royalties. And you're basically flat at that price. That's correct.

I mean, and I wasn't, I mean, I made that years ago. Sure. But I made, I wouldn't do any attitude error with the ring crew and the referee. I was making $3.50 a year. That's amazing. And I was getting things paid for it. So I was doing crude stuff too. So.

But when I became subcontracted, And when JR turned me into a full-time ref, I became a subcontractor totally. And I was roughly about 15 years ago. Now, is that something you had a choice about? Like, could you be like, no, no, no. I just want to continue doing what I'm doing? No, yeah. I mean, like when JR said, look, we want you to be a full-time ref.

We want you to be our head referee years ago. And that's the way we want to go with you just before made the transition of Johnny taking over JR's position. And I said, yeah, JR, I'm going to, you know, after all these. years I'm going to lose my car this. I'll give it to, I'll give you that. As a gentleman's agreement, you really didn't sign paperwork and contracts then. As a referee, you didn't sign.

Contracts didn't come available until Johnny Laurenitis came here. Interesting. So did that ever come back to bite you? No, because the contracts are all one-sided, even the talent, pretty much, unless you're a special talent, so guaranteed money or something like that. So as you can see, they just let me go, you know. And I didn't breach the contract. I didn't do anything.

When you first got released, and we're coming up on almost a year. It's crazy that this pandemic's been going on almost a year. It is. Did you think that this will just be for a few months? They'll call me back and everything will be fine again. They called me a month later. Okay. To do Edge in Randy Orton's match.

And Randy had texted me and they really wanted me to do. this special match that we're having. But at that point, the pandemic was going on for a little while. My wife couldn't get in to get tested. She had some complications with maybe her cancer coming back. There was the same problems that she had when she got diagnosed with cancer. So the doctors weren't open up the Moffitt here in Tampa. So we had it.

I said, you know what? Let's see if we can get into your original doctors, Dr. Haas and everybody in Houston. So she did, she got an appointment. So we drove up there. And as I'm driving, I get a text from Mark Caranoa. So I get a text and say, hey, you know, there's an extra payday here for you. And I'm like, payday for what? Like you're paying me until July 7th to August.

Yeah. So what's going on? And Randy's texting me, hey, can you do I? I'm in Texas. I'm like, I'm in Louisiana at this time, driving. It was like a Wednesday or Thursday. her appointment was on Friday

and I said there's no way I mean if she gets bad news on Friday what am I supposed to do fly back Saturday morning say see you later babe I gotta go do a match real quick you know like she's gonna be you know if she gets bad news which she didn't get bad news thank God

I mean thank God so she didn't get the bad news and then so I was at that point I was like I can't leave her alone now I'm like and then I had to get a physical I had to take blood work. I didn't do this. I'm like,

there's no, I don't have enough time to do all that. Yeah. Before we taped dispatch, you know, they gave me like four days, three days notice. And I was in the middle,

driving to Texas. So, and I didn't want her driving on the way back. Are they going to fly me back to Houston to go get my wife? Get the car and drive her back. But I said, you know what? I'm staying with you, hon, you know.

So was that the last that you heard from WWE? That's correct. Wow. Yes. But it is what it is, you know. Because some people ended up getting their job back. You know, I can think that, you know, some people are back there. And I would just, it just doesn't make sense that you're not working there anymore.

I know, it just, you know, hey, it is what it is. I appreciate it. There's somebody that didn't want me to go out strong and, you know, retire a referee. I mean, they would have told me, hey, this is your last rest of meeting in Tampa or this is your last resume here? Yeah. I'd be like, yes. So I'm ready.

I'm so be it. I'm ready to move forward into a different direction. You know, I mean, you know, when I was going down to the PC, you know, Xbox, Stephen Regal and all these guys, Sean Michaels and this, you know, and Matt Bloom runs the facility down there. And, of course, Triple H oversees everything. And I thought I was, man, I hope I could fit in here, you know, and do something, you know.

And it was a shocker because I've never bashed my company. You know, my father always told me, don't bite the hand to feed you. And I never did that. You know, I just did what I was told, when to do it, how to do it, and just went in and did my job every day. That's all I could have done. Yeah. Over the course of your career, how many matches do you think you've read? Who've tried to.

Me and John Cohn sat there a couple of years ago. We tried to average some things out. And I always remember there's some nights, many nights years ago when Unigley, Jack Lonzo or Chief J. Strombo didn't want. the commission guys to work. So they're like, we're not going to let these guys work. I'm like, who else is coming tonight, Chief? And Chief would look at me and he'd go, you're already here. And I'm going with his eight matches on the card.

He goes, you want a box of tissues with this card? No, probably. And then of course, Chief bonus, you know? Because those days you were allowed to take cash advances or get paid on the side for anything you did. So he'd just go to Arnie and say, Arty, paid a kid a couple hundred dollars extra. We're giving $500 tonight. Yeah.

Me, $500 plus the ring crew stuff and all of a sudden, you know, and to steal cage money. And this was, you know, over a grand a night. That's amazing. So it was to me in my 20s, even like early 20s, I was bringing home some big cash and getting checks. So are we talking 10,000 matches? 15, I'd say. We came on. 15,000 matches.

At least. Because, you know, with all the live events that we did and all that, I'm thinking anywhere from 12 to 15 at least. Wow. You know, because at TVs, and you just didn't do one match of TV, like the main event. Paper reviews, sometimes I did too. Paper views, yeah, one. TVs, you would do three or four matches a night on Raw or SmackDown or something like that.

So it wasn't like you only had one match on TV, you know. Yeah. What did your pre-match ritual look like? You're backstage, you're in guerrilla, you're getting ready to go out. What's your pre-match ritual? And say a little prayer. Hopefully, my health is good. I don't, you know, my knee holds up.

Stretch that old body when I got older. But just to make sure I had to match straight, I'd go to the baby face. And if I didn't work with him that much before, if he's a newcomer, I'd ask him, hey, how do you like the referee to work around? you, how do you like to work with the referee, you know, or around the referee? If you're a heel, how do you want to get your heat? You want me to, you know, want to outsmart me? That would be the better way. Just don't do shit in front of me because it's going to make me look stupid. Yeah. And then really, it's just going to, you're not going to get the heat. The heat's going to

be on me. You know, certain things, you know, and not saying I was going into business for myself, by any means. It was just, if you want the heat, you better put on you as the heel, not the referee. Yeah. What would you say in the course your career was the biggest mistake that you made in the ring? Oof, in the ring. Wearing white underwear over black pants when I split my pants. No, let's see. I'm sure I made more mistakes than that.

I can't think of any, like, famous Mike Keota botches. Yeah, I know. I know I've lost a few matches up there somewhere along the line, you know. Yeah, I got to say count three when I wasn't supposed to. You know, and I did that a couple times, few times. Never on TV, I think. Yeah, I'll knock on wood for you, too. If it's not on TV, I don't know if it really matters then.

Right. Well, it does. It does. You know, some guys take it real serious, some talent. Working for Vince McMahon for that long, what would you say is the biggest piece of advice that you learned from him? Maybe he told you or maybe you just kind of like observed it from him, but what do you think is the biggest takeaway from Vince?

you've got to stand your ground at some points, you know. Sometimes, I mean, whether he's right or wrong, you're going to agree with him. But then at some point, you've got to stand your ground. I think the more that you stand your ground a little bit more, he respects you. But, you know, being a referee, and I know he loves hard work. And he knows certain people in that company like myself or Tony timel that give you give 35 years i just didn't take vacations when i wanted to i didn't you know um i was out for six months with this latest injury i was only out for three months four years ago for an

a co i can daven put in by dougas and um kept my career going there and i mean i was only out for maybe nine months of injuries that i had a 35 years then suspended once wait i don't know if i know if i know that suspended no Everybody knew. But yeah, I got suspended. It was for that fake marijuana that was running around in the gas stations. I mean, a couple of guys. We were trying out.

We got drug tests and they're like, and I didn't smoke it for three months. Huh. And I said, how to hell is this stuff in my system to do research in Redwood, California, where this stuff came and all of a sudden they were doing research, that these metabolites stay in your body for like a year. Wow. It wasn't like you can smoke marijuana in 30 days inside your system or two weeks. Or do some other drug.

It's out of your system in three days. You know? So I found out this. And I said, no wonder I failed it. Because I'm telling he's got, I didn't smoke that stuff. And I didn't want him in three months. They didn't like it. Yeah.

So I just went back to old school. But they suspended me. I think they made an example of that. They wanted because somebody there for so long, we can do this to Mike Kyoto. We'll do it to you. Yeah. If you were on the road for that long, and now you haven't been on the road really at all, how has that adjustment been going from 100 miles an hour for 30 plus years to just slowing right down to zero? Man, it's tough. It is tough, especially with the pandemic and everything.

Even if there wasn't a pandemic, I lost my job. Okay, babe, let's go to Italy. Let's go here. Yeah. Let's go to Spain. Let's go to Germany or let's go here because I love to travel. Yeah. Love to travel. And, you know, I've taken my wife to about 12 different countries and her favorite country is Japan. She can't wait to go back to Japan.

So that's one of my favorite countries as well as Japan. So I mean, it's definitely been a change, but it's actually like, wow, like I'm living this kind of normal life a little bit, you know? It's like, but it's a little boring. It is definitely boring. It is boring. How much of a wrestling fan is your wife? She's a fan of me

And she is a fan of some of the other guys My friends Like Our Truth And Jake Kager And you know Some other guys that we've hung out Ray Mysterio and so forth And she's very good friends

With Ray and Angie's wife And so she likes to watch the guys She knows very well Yeah But she's not much of a wrestling fan Now her son is Her son Kyle He's huge

Huge wrestling It's not like you're not doing anything at all. Like you've been, I think everyone will know that you're doing the Monday Mailbag on ad-freeshows.com. Yes, yes. Which is like, it's so cool getting your insight on everything that's going on in the business from your perspective. Oh, that's cool. Thank you. And it's great that at free shows Conrad Thompson. And now I'm working with Paul Bromwell and he's doing a fantastic job coaching me. I mean, Pauley B and Paul Brom, I can't thank him enough. And Conrad Thompson to give me the opportunity to tell my story out there, you know, as a third man in the ring.

So, and that's, I really appreciate them giving me the opportunity. And it's going very well. So, I mean, yeah, please, everybody check it out. We're doing this watch-along once a month. I'm doing it with Paul Bromwell as well. So we'll go over a match, we'll pick a match from a pay-per-view or from somewhere. And we'll watch along with the top tiers and stuff, about three shows. So it's going very well, and I'm enjoying it.

And there's a lot of stories. I mean, I'm definitely going to think about writing a book soon. So I just want the book to be good. I don't want it to be too long, but I got a lot of stories. So it'll be coming out sometime soon. Well, you should talk to your friend Chris Jericho. He knows a thing or two about writing books. That's true.

I will. I will buzz Chris. I will. Hey, give me that good writer, someone to need one. Yeah, seriously. I want to go over some of my favorite matches that you've been a part of. We, of course, talked about my favorite match of all time, Rock Hogan. legendary match but there's a couple other matches and moments I want to go over here

uh big show and Brock Lesner with the ring collapse oh that was that was cool um michael hayes everybody paterson the thing on that match they wanted me to do it was to sell the collapse of the ring like and they the way i did it which i don't know what i did i just did what I had to do because it was actually pretty freaking cool. I'd never been in the ring when it collapsed before. Sure. So it was just like, because when they take the bump, the suit all out of the corner, the ring collapses.

They're selling. They're out like a light. I'm the one sitting up like, holy shit, like just what the hell happened, you know? And I remember them just screaming like, yes, yes, that's what you want, yes. That's what you're hearing in your ear? Yeah, and I mean, it was just, and then the crowd was just,

holy shit, you know, and it was just like, it was just one at a moment, it's like, it wasn't, pop wasn't as big as Rock in Hogan, but it was there. How did, like logistically, how did they get the ring to collapse on that impact? Well, it's, it's, uh, they do a very good job. Mark Carpenter, which I'd worked for many years, but going back, he's, he builds the rings for the W,

which was WWF at the time. So they did some kind of hydraulic thing to where, and it was like they put bags underneath the ring to where it's like airbags. And it was just a hydraulic thing where they released the pressure and it just collapsed the ring. So it just pulled out the poles.

And so they didn't use the cables. There's crisscross cables that go underneath the ring on the bottom poles. Yeah. But they use something else to where that ring collapses. You know, they used hydraulics and stuff. It was some kind of hydraulic. I mean, it collapsed perfectly on time, too.

Perfect, yeah. And this isn't something I imagine that you could have rehearsed before either. No, they did. I think we didn't rehearse it in the ring, but they did rehearse the ring collapse. They did rehearse before. Like that was the iconic ring collapse. The ring has collapsed, you know, a handful of times since. And people kind of go, eh, it's not the same as when it happened on, you know, SmackDown.

first time ever done, right? I mean, so you got to admit, like, wow, like the things that they used to come up with were fantastic sometimes. I mean, you know, and it was just, I mean, we didn't even finish the match. We didn't, you know, it was just like the rain collapsed and just, and that was a moment of history and professional wrestling. Yeah. Yeah, I was great to be a part of that moment.

And if like, and I remember Michael Hayes said, you got to sell this. Like you just, it's never happened to you before. I said, yeah, all right, cool. But when it did happen, it was like, what the, what the hell? Holy shit. Like, I think it just came natural because I just really couldn't practice that, you know. Well, your reaction was perfect. It's exactly what, you know, should have happened, I feel like.

Yeah, I didn't. And there's, I guess there's times you can oversell or undersell, but I guess, I guess it was right down the middle where they sell it. So, you know, and, I guess the focus was on me at that point. That's what was going to be focused on the referee, just sitting in the ring, looking around going, what the F just happened, you know?

So it was a pretty cool moment, you know. Let's go to WrestleMania 19, Kurt Engel versus Brock Lesnar. And Brock goes to hit the shooting star press. Kurt Angles almost three-quartered the way across the ring, and Brock hit on his head. He did, but I'll tell you, Brock almost hit that. He almost hit it. I mean, it was, he was far out.

And I knew it. And Kurt told me that was supposed to be the finish of the match. Yes, yes. And we went a different direction. And, yeah, I mean, God, when a neck injury like that happens, you know, it's sad. But, yeah, I remember being in that dome, and that was a big WrestleMania moment. It was just, and I was just like in Brock, it's like such a big dude, but he's athletic and he can, he could do what he needed. You know, I knew he could probably get there.

it was just just a little bit too far out. When Kurt Angle was laying there and you're looking at that, you're going, I know. Can he actually hit that? Well, I was looking at it going like looking at the distance. And I'm thinking maybe Kurt's going to feed in a little more or maybe make his weight in a little more or something. And then he just went and I was just like, oh, I didn't, when it happened, I just scrimmed, I cringed. You know, it was just like, ah.

Yeah. So, thank God he was a big enough dude and built because I think anybody a little scronier, a lot scronier than him would have broke something. Yeah. When he made that initial impact right on his head, what did you think? Oof, I was hoping not another draws moment, you know? So I've seen a couple of them and a couple. You know, it's just, it's not a pretty sight.

Definitely. It's just not. I just made sure he was okay at that time. He was kind of, he was, he was off. You can tell his eyes were glassy. And it was like watery and glassy. And it was just, it was not right. I remember we getting Brock to the back and he rushed him right away to the hospital.

Were you, you have to forgive me, were you in the ring for draws Indilo Brown? I drove, I came in and flew right into the match that day, right after it happened. And so they sent the referees and so forth. I believe that was in Long Island. I want to say that was in Nassau, I would see him. And I remember them saying, get down to the ring, you know. There's the same thing with Owen. Jimmy Cordaris was in the ring at the time.

He's from Toronto as well. And I came down to ring and it was just not a pretty sight, you know. Yeah. Randy Orton versus Cactus Jack in the street fight. Man. That was when Randy took all those thumbtacks, right? Yeah, and you were counting in thumbtacks. I know.

I remember Randy going, Jesus Christ, like, he was just like, like, he didn't like like those matches too much, you know, and because he wasn't that type of wrestler, really. That match made him, though. It did. It really did, you know. And Randy, I remember he was going, ah, like, He had about 50 thumbtacks on his back and all that other stuff. I'm going, oh, my God.

I remember saying, you know, just think about the payday. Just think about the payday. I mean, what else are you going to tell him, you know? I mean, trying to keep his momentum up, you know, a little bit. But, yeah, I mean, Cactus Jack, mankind, this, phenomenal, unbelievable. And then I love working with Randy, too, as well. And that match was, that was a little bit out of control, but they got through it. You know, for Randy's sake, that was just a normal day for cactus jacking, you know, in the ring.

But for Randy, I think he was more worried about. Am I going to come out of here with 10 scars, gashes, this, that, you know. But he came out of it. I remember seeing, there were a lot of thumbtacks in that match. I remember before you counted going, how are they going to count this? Right. I remember wiping off the mat, then counting. And you still got thumbtacks at your hand. And I still had some thumbtacks in my hand.

I went, ah! I'm thinking, if this hurts, I got to imagine how Randy feels with 50 thumbtacks because, you know, Cactus Jack, McPolley does this every week all day long. Yeah. So he's used to it, you know. And, yeah, but I mean, you get through that. I mean, and the things as a referee, you can't complain and pitch. with five thumb tags in your hand

when you're seeing the boys going through what they're going through to make the match what they want to show the fans what was the first big match that you got assigned to I remember back in a day

I think it was Mr. Perfect the IC title that was one of the first big matches I want to see with Kerry von Eric or something or but I think it was a team TV match. The first biggest match that really stands out. What I did is a six-man tag in 92 Wembley Stadium. I kind of made my debut on 89, 90, like 89 in TV. But the first biggest,

because like, you know, you had to pay dues to get those WrestleMania spots. You had to pay some dues. You had to, whatever, you had to be experienced. And you had to be good at what you did, better at what you did. and remember 92 was like really blew my mind away because it was like 82,000 people Joey had to match with Bulldog and Brett. You know, that was a phenomenal match, 45 minutes long. And it was 82,000 people in Wembley Stadium. That was my biggest crowd in the night of a show. Taker was there, everybody was there.

I'd probably say that was probably the biggest television, first television match I performed in front of crowd otherwise. All right, I got one more here for you. It's Stone Cold Steve Austin versus Sean Michaels with Mike Tyson as a special guest enforcer. Yeah, that was awesome. I mean, like, at that point, I wasn't scheduled to do that match.

I didn't know a match in the card. But then they called me and told me, hey, Earl got sick. He had some type of aneurysm and stuff. And they said, we need you to step up and do this. match. I went, sure, no problem. Awesome.

You know. And that was awesome. I mean, it was great working with Korse Stone Cold Steve Austin and Sean Michaels, one of the greats. These two icons. Yeah. Then you have an icon in boxing,

Mike Tyson. Yeah. I remember going up to Mike Tyson. Hey, Mike Tyson, how you doing? I'm like, Keota. How are you? He was, brother, I know who you are. I watch you all the time.

And I'm like, you watch me. He's like, man. You're the coolest referee. I love you, man. I'm like, oh, shoot. I'm like, Mike Tyson knows me. That was great, man. And, you know, everything went well.

I mean, I taught him at a count, but he counts so fast. Yeah. I was kind of tell him, just got to count one, two, three. And he went, boop, bo, bo, bo, I went, you got excited. He got excited. Yeah, he did. He did. The screw job was in.

So you were getting to a point in your career where guys were requesting you for their matches. That's correct, yes. That's amazing. No, it's a great feeling. Which was the one that meant the most to you? Rock and Hogan, I'd have to say. I mean, but you know what? I don't want to take, I know I keep saying that, but there's so many other matches with Triple H and so many other ones I've done that are great matches with Stone Cold and this one.

and so on Michaels and over the years. I mean, I really just, it's hard for me to really place these matches in order, you know? Yeah. But, and I'm not taking away from anything, you know, I always say Rock and Hogan. But, I mean, you got to figure that was one of the most icon against icon matches and had the profession wrestling business. Absolutely. And that's why I do put that first.

But there were so many other matches, too. I appreciate that. It comes from, you know, Vince and his production meetings, Michael Hayes, Paterson back in the day. You know, these guys would be like, okay, Mike Keel is going to be the referee of this match. Obviously, they all agree on it, you know. If the talent didn't want me there, they'd say, no, we don't want him. We want somebody else. So, you know, the talent could say that too.

So when a talent and definitely when the talent says it, okay, the office has to go with it because they feel, comfortable work with me as far as experience or knowing I'm going to be there for the spots or for the bump it's a great feeling it's an awesome it's a phenomenal feeling now that you spend time in a ewe and obviously you know most of your career in wwee yeah how was the refereeing style different between the two companies a little more different uh w w really really tries to make this like a real sport you know and it is it is real to me i mean There's nobody else that these professional wrestlers going out there doing the stuff that they do is phenomenal. Cutting promos to taking bumps to high flying to doing what they do best.

There's nobody in the world that does it better than some of these, you know, really I'd want to say a few hundred guys, you know, 300, four, you know, two, three. In the whole world. A world, in the whole world. Between AWA, WW, New Japan, or whatever. All these, you know, Ring of Honor and everything. There's a lot of great talent. But, you know, these guys, they just, they really, like, sometimes, like, when a new guy comes in, like, Seth Rollins,

it's like, holy shit, once I think I've seen it all, here comes Seth Rollins, you know. Well, there's another moment we didn't even talk about. Yeah. That RKO, geez. Oh, yeah, right? Yeah. And Randy Orton, I mean, just his RKO way he did that, AJ Styles, the way he is, and the way he hits that boron.

He's so athletic in the ring and so forth for a guy his size. He's a phenomenal worker. I didn't work with him for all these years. And I see him come in. I'm going, holy shit, where this guy come from? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watched him on a few nights and late night over in Japan. And said, dad, that guy's got talent, you know.

And then at least I got to work with AJ too as well. Sure. Mike, I've really enjoyed this. This is good. Oh, man. This has been so insightful. It's just been great. hearing all these stories yeah i appreciate it chris for adding me man hopefully we can do this another time oh man i'd

love to people can listen to monday mailbag is it every monday on ad-free shows it's every other monday every other mondayshows yes dot com yep with paul bromwell and uh yeah tune in check it out we've got a lot great stories a lot of true stories so there's nothing really to hold back now i mean what am i going to do hold back for what well this is why we got to look forward to your book like Like, have you thought of a title for what your book's going to be called? Yeah, I was thinking about third man in the ring, but it's actually happened already. I think it's from a boxing standpoint to check it up. But I am going to get third man in the ring.

I'm in the process of patented it out right now. It should be called What Do You Say? Yeah, right? What do you say? That's all I used to say, what do you say, Rock? I love it. What do you say? Say, you want to give it up.

I thought we should have started this interview. What do you say, Mike? What do you say? Okay. Yeah, I mean, yeah. So, I mean, it's just, you know, ad freeze has been a big help, you know, and keeping me live out there and stuff. And I really appreciate that. Yeah.

Paul Bromwell and Codrad Thompson, so I really appreciate that. And they're going to be able to help you push this book out, too. Yeah, yeah, it'd be great, you know. Yeah. This is all new to me, like social media stuff and everything because I wasn't a big guy on social media at all, you know. And still not, you know, but so it's a new way of living, though. I mean, working from home. Yeah.

So, you know, and hopefully when. things open back up, I can start doing some things around the country and around the world. Yeah. Well, you see it behind me here. I say be great, be grateful. And I believe that if you can be grateful in your life, you will live a great life. So I end every interview, Mike, by asking, what are three things that you're grateful for in your life right now? Right now, I would, man, it's easy because it would be my mother and she's still living. And God bless her heart. She was a strong woman and she took care of her family and um you know my father my family two beautiful sisters five beautiful nieces my wife meredith family my health and and i appreciated the 35 years of working

for w i was grateful for that i am i'm still grateful you know i have nothing to be remorse about or to be pissed about really a little bit of things a little upset about you know the way things ended you know but what you can do you can't sit back and cry so i am thankful for my help you know i still have it and because without your health like my father said you can have all the money in the world son but if you don't have your health how do you enjoy it you know so uh it's you know i'm grateful for a lot of things be honest with you more than three things well it's been an amazing career and it's not over yet no it's not i mean you know i do got a few good more years left. Like I said, I don't want to do this. I'm 54, so I don't want to do this

till I'm 65 years old or anything. Yeah. I can go to I'm 57 or 58, whatever, then see where it takes me, you know. Yeah. But I'd like the end of career the right way. You know, hopefully I can retire AWF. Yeah, and hopefully it's in front of a crowd. Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. We can hear those Mike, God. Love it. My my Giotta. It's like my Sharona. Yeah.

Man, this has been fantastic. Mike, I can't thank you enough. Man, thank you, Chris. I really appreciate me. And you do a hell of a job. And I was checking out a lot of your interviews, man. You do a great job. You're awesome.

It's very kind of you. Thank you. And, you know, it's my pleasure to be able to share this last hour with you. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. Chris, and you enjoy it. Stay safe out there, okay? You as well. Thank you. Where are you out now in L.A.? I'm in L.A. now, yeah. Yeah, if I'm ever out that way, I'll hit you up. Please.

Get up some lunch or something or dinner. First round's on me. Nah, it's all good. Second, third, fourth, are on me. I'll take you up on that. You got it, man. Hey, you're plugging me, so I got to take care of you. Appreciate it, man. Oh, man, Mike Keota. What a guy. And man, can he tell some stories? And that's what Monday Mailbag is all about. every other Monday on ad-free shows.com. And, man, after hearing those stories about the ring collapse, about Engel versus Lesnar, WrestleMania 19, Rock Hogan, WrestleMania 18,

I don't know about you, but I'm going to go back and watch all those right now. We should watch them together. That's what we should do. Probably should have planned this out better. Make sure to subscribe and share this with a friend who you know is going to love these stories from Mike Kyoto. Tag us on social media.

I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Mike is at MJC, Kyoto. And a huge thank you to Mike for sharing his time with us. And a big thank you to you. I know that time is the most valuable thing that we have. It's our only non-renewable resource. So thank you. Thank you for choosing to spend it with us. If you couldn't tell, I'm fascinated by the idea of time because it's all we have. And when this second passed, you can never have it again. It's gone. It's gone. That's it. And this quote from William Penn, I think sums it up best for me. Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. Be great.

Be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley. that they go from top of the rock.

I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of them? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley.

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