Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Muhammad Hassan: WWE's Best Heel Got Fired For MASSIVE Heat, What He Does For Work Now

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

Marc Copani (@marccopani) is a retired professional wrestler known for his time as Muhammad Hassan in WWE. He joins Chris Van Vliet in Philadelphia, PA to talk about His short but impactful run in WWE, how his character was originally pitched to him, not actually being Arab-American, getting heat from the locker room, always staying in character even outside of the ring, plans for him to beat Batista to become World Champion, being written off of TV following pressure from the network, what he is doing today, working in education, if he still gets recognized, any plans for another match and more! Quote I'm thinking about: "He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life" - Muhammad Ali Sponsors: PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank which was designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/ PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT for a first deposit match up to $100! TIMELINE NUTRITION: Save 10% off your first order of Mitopure at http://timeline.com/INSIGHT BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv BLUECHEW: Use the code INSIGHT to get your first month of BlueChew for FREE at http://bluechew.com ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and experience financial freedom: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv BETTERHELP: Get 10% off your first month with the code INSIGHT at http://betterhelp.com/insight PLUNGE: Get $150 off your Plunge with the coupon code CVV150 at http://plunge.com For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, it is so good to see you, my friends. Welcome back to another one here on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleeton with the plethora of podcasts out there. Thank you for being with us on this one. And thank you for making Insight the number one wrestling podcast on the planet. If you're one of the thousands of people who listen but don't follow the show, I don't want to call you out or anything, but if you could just take a few seconds today to hit that follow button. That would mean so much to me. I know it's super small, super insignificant,

and you're like, man, why do you bring this up on every single intro? It means that much to me. It's literally you clicking a button on your phone, but for me, it helps the show so much. And the bigger the show gets, the bigger the guests can keep getting. This is a special one today because Mark Koppani, better known as Muhammad Hassan in WWE, really doesn't do a lot of interviews at all. We did one four years ago. That was over Zoom, though. It's never the same when it's not in person. This one was in person. And his story is just so interesting. He was asked to play an Arab American character in the heart of this post-9-11 world. Tensions were so high then. And it's been pointed out before. But it bears repeating. He is not Arab American. He was born in

Syracuse, New York, his family is of Sicilian descent. The thing is he played the character so convincingly, and he got so much heat that it led to him getting taken off TV and then eventually released. Like he had people legitimately mad at him because he was so good at his job. He then left wrestling altogether after he got released, and he's had a very successful career in education. He was an assistant principal. Then he was a principal. Now he's a district administrator and he's really happy with his life and his career and everything that he's doing now. And he makes the odd appearance at like conventions, like we got him here at RussellCon in Philadelphia when we recorded this.

But he's really happy doing what he's doing now. And he doesn't have any interest in going back to wrestling at all. But I will say, he is still jacked and just as ripped as he was almost 20 years ago when we last saw him in WWE. So don't think that he couldn't still go. in the ring. Snap a screenshot. Let us know that you're listening to this and tag us so we can share it as well. He's at Mark Copani on Instagram. He's at M. Copani 1 on Twitter. He doesn't use it. I think it looks like he hasn't tweeted in like two years, but sure. Tag him on there anyway. I'm at Chris Van Fleet, and here we go. Please welcome Mark Copani. Do people still recognize you when you're down there?

Yeah, believe it or not. I mean, of course I believe it. I think a lot of people, had their old yearbook signed, so they see my picture in the earbook. Yeah. And then they recognize me. I just feel like there should have been a gimmick photo behind you, so people could immediately go, oh, that's the guy. Like a before and after picture? Like this is 20 years of aging.

I mean, you look great. Oh, thank you. Look at the size of this man, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. I feel like you could step back into the ring right now. I absolutely cannot step back. I would shatter into a million pieces. I think as soon as I took one.

But I threw my back out two weeks go picking up my nephew. I blew my hamstring racing my daughter on the beach. Like, it's just amazing as you get older. Like, you just pile up injuries for no good reason. Like, I wish I had a good story for how I threw my back out. Like, I mean, I could squat and I could bench. And then I'm just getting out of the car and doing this and like, boom, gone. Like, it's scary.

Did any of the people that you used to work with see you? And maybe it took them a second? Oh, Gene No, Gene Rackenckney, Gene Sinsky-Rexamizing right away. I went over to see boogeyman. How could you not? And we started OVW 20 years ago. And it took him a few minutes, well, not a few minutes. It took a few seconds.

Like he looked at me and I'm shaking his hand and I'm like, it's a sign. It's like, oh, my God. Like a huge reaction. I'm like, yeah, dude, I know. I'm a lot older. But it's not to say you don't look that much different is you've been away from wrestling for so long that people I think aren't expecting to see you. That's what it is.

This is, I think the first one I've done five years maybe. I don't know. Since the last one we did? Well, no, not the first interview. Oh, the first conversation. signing. Yeah. I did one. I think it was in Houston. I'm like six or seven years ago with Sean. And this is the first time I've been back since. It's fun. It's a lot of fun. Do you want to do more?

Uh, yeah, maybe. Maybe a couple. Well, you know, I have four kids and my son has a basketball tournament in Albany right now. So I'm missing that. My daughters have a soccer game back home in Syracuse. So we're busy. Weekends are usually booked solid. So I would rather do that stuff than come and do this stuff. So for people who don't know, your life after wrestling, what you've been doing for the last 20 years, you've been working as an educator. I start as a teacher, that I became an assistant principal, and then I became a principal, and now I am the director of human resources in the Fulton City School District. So does every student

just go, you'll never believe who my teacher or principal is? The ones who like wrestling. Yeah. It's funny because my son's nine, and he's got, he's on that basketball team, and his friends are all huge wrestling fans. Like, I'm signing things for them. I got him, Sean actually got him tickets to the show in Syracuse

last week. They had a blast, and my son could you know, it's like just put basketball on. Like he's just, none of my kids are really into it, which I'm completely fine with. But it's funny because he's at that age now where I start getting into wrestling. And he's just, you know, not a big fan, I guess.

Did you always have a passion for education? Um, I liked history. That's how I started teaching is I liked history. And I liked talking about history and I liked social studies. And yeah, I did have a passion for education, absolutely. Uh, but that's what kind of got me into it initially. That's,

that's what I wanted to do. And then once I became a teacher, I kind of immediately went and got my CAS, I got advanced study and educational leadership. I kind of felt like I wanted to do more. I wanted to be outside of the classroom working with kids, working with students, which is what I do now at a different capacity. I work with staff.

Now I'm on the business end of education. But I like it so far. It's a big change, but it's been fun. If you were my principal, I would never, never mess with you. Because, I mean, what do you weigh these days? I've only put like six or seven kids through tables. I usually say that. You probably still wait at 2.30 maybe?

Yeah, probably 220. Oh, just 220. That's all I do is work out. We've talked about that. You might be the fittest principle in the country. I'm definitely probably the fittest director of human resources. There's probably not a lot of those. Yes.

But all I do is work out. You know, county macros, I run every day. It's just something that I've always loved to do. And it really kind of gives me a break for everything else. And I'm locked. I don't talk to anybody at the gym. Like you might get a wave out of me, not because I'm mean, but because that's just why I'm there. I'm there to work out and escape and listen to music and kind of decompress.

And I'll go to the gym six, seven times. So it gets hard for me to take a day off. None of my days off. I'm still running. So I still like that physical aspect of being human. But at the same time, if I think about going into the ring and trying to be physical and they're like, the guys that can do it at my age, the Randy Orton's out there, like the ones that are still wrestling, it's absolutely amazing.

Like Shelton, I was hanging out with Shelton Benjamin last night. and he's a little older than me, but he's still an athlete in the ring. Like, I just couldn't imagine doing that. Do you still follow wrestling? Not really. No. A little bit. I know, you know, I'll check it out here and there.

It'll pop up on my Instagram feed and I'll watch videos. But I don't really watch the show, not because I don't want to. Just I really don't have time. The only time I get to watch TV is in my bed at like 10 o'clock at night. Yeah. You know. Your career is so fascinating to me because you might be the only wrestler who got fired for being too good of a heel. someone had said too controversial for

WWE which I kind of like because that is a distinguishment right there. Yeah. And it was. It was definitely a controversial character and I feel like I played it pretty well. I was talking about this last night. It was very hard to get into character with Sean because

everywhere we went, we kind of faced that. I mean, it was still pretty fresh after 9-11 and we go to the airport and Sean would always be randomly checked at every single airport. And it would be very, annoying because then we'd have to run to our flight. So I kind of used that as my anger, obviously more things than that.

But it was very easy to fall into that character and be able to speak the truth about what I saw because that was what was happening back then. And again, that character would never fly today. You know, it kind of had to stay in its time. And I think it's it's kind of cool for me, you know, doing something completely different that that character still stays as controversial. It's just amazing. You're one of the biggest what ifs in WWE history.

The amount of momentum that that character had, the amount of heat that that character had, and then out of nowhere, just like that, it all comes to a screeching halt. It would have been gone, I think, within a couple years. The world really started changing. The things that we were doing in wrestling back then would never fly today, and that was definitely one of them. So, I mean, what if? Yeah, I'm happy where I am now, so I never really think of it like that. Now, this is fun.

Like, this is extra stuff for me to be able to come and do this and talk to you. You know, it's like not real life for me. So I really enjoy it. But I'm happy where I am and I guess, yeah. I mean. Does it really feel like a previous world to you, like a previous life? It does.

That's funny. I got stuck in my thought, but it really does. It feels like a previous life and not real. And like I said, I get to come here and get to have fun. But that character would never have flown today. And I think regardless of what had happened, I would have been off TV within a year or two. Prize Picks is America's number one daily fantasy sports app with over five million active members.

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exclusions apply. We go back before Muhammad Hassan and you were in OVW. Who was Mark Magnus? Mark Magnus was this year's model. So he was cocky. He was cream of the crop. Still a heel, love playing a heel, but very different from Hassan. It was kind of like pretty boy, you know, I'm better than you at everything. That was kind of the gimmick that Jimmy had written. And it really started to take off. And then I like playing that character. That was probably just as fun as playing Hassan because I got to be mean and say things and get the crowd to boo and generate heat. And it was always good heat. There's a difference between good and bad heat. And I felt like both characters were able to generate good heat. People just wanted to boo me. They wanted

to hate me, which is good. And then so that character is pretty successful, right? You're OVW champion. And then Jim Cornett comes to you and says they've got this idea for you. How does he pitch it to you? God, I think it was Jim and Arne Anderson, I think was there. at the time. And they, we really didn't know what that character was going to be. Um, they pitched the idea and, and we knew, we knew about Sean, but we weren't sure other than I was going to be an Arab, but it was going to generate a lot of heat. He talked to me about traveling with Sheik back in the day and, you know, all the heat that had generated and are you up for this? And I mean, you don't say no. I remember talking to Rip Rogers, who was a trainer there at the time. And he's like,

I'm like, I'm not ready for this. He's like, you never know if you're ready. He's like, you had to jump into the fire and see if you burn. He said, it's not like that, like one of Rip sayings, but I wasn't going to say no, and it sounded fascinating. And then Sean came in and we had great chemistry and it kind of took off. We were at the house shows when we first started, just trying different things, seeing what the crowd would boo at or if they would even cheer. I don't think we really had a decision made until after the second or third vignette that we filmed in Connecticut before I debuted about what that character was going to be. People were going to cheer them? Because I am kind of telling the truth. We could have an ethnic demographic that might cheer

that character on. But I think the way that I interrupted and the way that character was presented once I got on TV and after those vignettes became more and more aggressive. I mean, it was obviously that they were going to boo, but we kind of filmed those in order waiting to see the reaction. Is your background, like you're not Arab American? I am not. I am 100% Sicilian. Yes. And Sean is not Arab either.

He's Iranian. He's Persian. So again, you know, like I still hear about that, like that I played an Arab character. It's like it's all phony, man. It's a character on TV. It's the same thing. But with Sean speaking Farsi, it really tied the whole thing. together, and that's what really started generating a lot of heat. It's just so funny to me that people believed that.

People believed that what you were saying was your truth. Right. It was just the character's truth. And again, it was an easy character to fall into. They believed it. We would dress up when we traveled. And just people's reactions to seeing, you know, a pretty big Arab and his sidekick there with the head, the glasses, dressed in suits.

I mean, people, people, like, we were heavy, man. And people looked at us like, watch out for these guys. Yeah, it was 2004. So at that point, not even, and it was just about three years after 9-11, right? So at a different time. It was a very different time in this country. And it was obviously not a great time to be Arab in this country. And so that character really did speak the truth.

And I do hear from people who are Arab or Middle Eastern quite frequently about how they identified as that character or with that character and how important it was to them, which is really cool to hear that you actually could have an impact. like that on someone's life playing a character, but it wasn't just an Italian playing the character that was important. It was what that character was saying and what he stood for. And really the hypocrisy that that character was up against and the WWE was really what shown through on that character. That's what's so interesting about that character is the hypocrisy. Like he is speaking things that are true. And then they're getting booed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like they

didn't want to look in the mirror and go, this is actually what's happening right now. Absolutely not. It was true. I mean, everything that I was saying, was true. Maybe not the way I was saying it. It probably wasn't the most political way to say something, but everything was true. And no one likes being shown the ugly side of them. And so you put a mirror on somebody and their hypocrisy and you, you call them out on it. And that's what that heat was. It was good heat. It was, we don't want to see you heat. Not like we don't watch you, but, you know, they hated me.

Your entrance theme didn't help that. Someone told me it was their favorite entrance theme of all time yesterday. I was like, yeah. It was pretty cool. Of all time? Of all time. I know. I don't know. You're probably just saying that.

But yeah, no, I'd love that entrance theme. But it's still pretty catchy. It is. It also generates a reaction the second you hear it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's no mistake in what's going on when you're going to talk. Yeah.

It's like, I don't think we like these people. Yes. Yeah. And then they're going to come out here and yell at us. Especially back then. Yeah, especially back then. When did the character really start to pick up momentum? Was it right after the debut?

Pick up momentum right. after the debut and then I think we really put that character on the map was working with Sean Michaels. I mean, I had done some smaller angles, but working with Sean and then eventually Hulk Hogan, I think that was kind of where I felt that that character was at the top of its game, you know, in the ring with someone like Sean Michaels every night, you really, you really can't look bad. So definitely right around then, and then it kind of ebden flowed a little bit up until the end. I'd have to think there'd be some jealousy from other guys in the back. You're in the company for a few months, and now you're in the ring with Sean Michaels, Hulk Hogan, Austin, eventually The Undertaker.

There's got to be some jealousy. I think there was. I think especially when I first got there and nobody knew me, I felt like a lot more heat. You know, coming in and getting a push to the moon, it doesn't upset the top guys. It does upset some of the midcard guys because they look at it as that's their spot. The top guys will tell you if that was your spot, you would have taken it. And so all the top guys treated me really well. And most of the middle car guys did too.

But there's just heat coming in and being new. And back then it was a different locker room. You know, there wasn't a lot of rules. But I definitely had some heat during my career in the WWE. Outside of wrestling and like being in an airport, what was the reaction just in general that you were feeling from like the media? What do you mean? I just feel like, especially towards the end, there was a lot of heat from people outside

of the wrestling. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. I don't know. It was kind of, it was in Time magazine. Like, yeah, it was a little bit like, wow, this is a really big deal. You know, wrestling is was wrestling and it was always, it's always supposed to be, you know, a work and a show and a story, but this transcended that story. And suddenly we were in the news and on, you know, on TV. I was on the local news back in Syracuse at one point without even identifying me as being from Syracuse because of that character and what had happened. Really what, what that got a lot of, of attention was once the news came out that that played in London the day of the bombing. And that was kind of where the news story began and then the pressure came after that. But it was wild, man. What was the conversation that day when they told you like, we can't do this anymore? God. So I remember when we didn't know where we were going to go with it. I remember when they were getting a lot of pressure, the character was going to change or come off a TV. And I remember talking to

Johnny Ace was out of talent relations at the time. And I was like, any idea of what's going on. And I said something like, I'm about to buy a house. And he was like, don't buy the house. And that's when I knew. I was like, okay. And I didn't know what was going to happen after that. But after that, it was pretty quick.

We couldn't even be on TV anymore. We did the pay-per-view with Undertaker and Buffalo. And then that was it. I really, they wouldn't even put the character back on TV in any capacity. The last ride through the stage, right? Or off the stage. It was through the stage. So I figured this out at a later date.

But the first time I ever appeared in a WWB ring, was at a house show in Louisville, Kentucky when I was in OVW, and I was Mark Magnus, and I ran into the ring during Undertaker's match, and he chokeslammed in Powerbombie. And then I think it's kind of, it's cool that the last thing I ever did in the WD, my last move was the choke slam, which I took horribly, by the way. And last ride to the top there. Yeah. So it's kind of bookends, you know what I mean?

Yeah. We also got, through your character, the debut of Tomaso Champa. Do you remember working with him? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the lawyer. Yes. It looks so different. Sean pointed that out to me a while ago, and I was like, oh, my God, he looked

I remember he had like long, wavy hair. Yeah. No beard, long wavy hair. Yeah. Do you remember even interacting with him that day? Not much. It was a tough day. Yeah.

Not much. But, no, it's cool. He's still doing it. And he's fantastic. Yeah. It's just so funny that, like, that was almost 20 years ago. It was almost 20 years ago. They keep going by, man.

15, 60, now that it's 18. years, but yeah. What are your memories of WrestleMania 21? It was L.A., right? It was draining. It was L.A. My family was out there. It was draining.

I do remember that. Just the excitement and the nerves and, you know, just the moment. But I remember Hulk was amazing. It was a lot of fun working. I mean, I got to work in the ring with Eugene, who was Nick Densmore, who was one of my trainers in OVW. I just, with shows like that and crowds like that, it's like you elevate. off the ground. That's how you feel when they're cheering. Like when Hogan views it hit in Madison Square Garden when I was wrestling Sean Michaels, I felt like I was rising off the ring because it was so loud.

So big moments, really cool. I remember working in the ring and not a whole lot after that. It was just such a big moment for me. You know, when you watch it back, there's a moment when Hogan's coming out and it cuts to the crowd and Adam Sandler's there. Yeah. Like cheering him on. Yeah, I know. It was awesome. I mean, that's the cool thing about WrestleMania in L.A. Oh, yeah. Because you never know who's going to be there. Mm-hmm.

When you think about your entire WWWE run, it's what, nine months? Jeez, yeah, about that, yeah. I think I was on house shows for a little longer. But, yeah, as far as being on TV, less than a year, yeah. Less than a year. And you pretty much did, I mean, you did so many things. WrestleMania moment you work with all of those grades.

Mm-hmm. I really don't know where that character could have gone after that. I don't know either, man. I was very fortunate, though. Very lucky. I got to work with a lot of really talented individuals and have a lot of fun, too, in the ring. When you work with somebody that good, like those people you just named, like all of them are just experts.

And it's so easy when you're new coming in and being green to work with somebody that good. But, I mean, we really were shot to the moon and we got a huge push. Who knows? You know, I guess you'll never know. Was that a Vince McMahon decision when you guys came in? He was just like, I'm going to, we're going to make this thing happen for you guys. I was told later that it was Vince's baby, like that whole, idea of bringing back an Arab character with Vince's idea.

Wow. And he was very, you know, big on the idea. So I think that's obviously why we got that big push. Did you or did you not win the Intercontinental Championship? I did for a split second. I think it should be in the books. Why isn't it? I don't know, but I think it should be because that's the only belt of every one in the

WWE. And I had it for at least five seconds. So I feel like it should be, you know, 2005 Intercontinental Champion, Mohamed Asan, but it's not recorded anywhere. So what's the story here? Why is this, why is it not legit? I don't know, man. Steve Austin.

Reverse the call. He probably forged the books, too. But no, that was, and Shelton's awesome. But, yeah, I would love to have that distinguishment, too, of being able to say, I won a title in WWE. And when you go back and watch it, it sure looks like you won the title. Clearly, I won the title. Yeah. Clearly. But he didn't see it that way. Is there truth to the fact that you were next in line to win the WWE championship from Batista?

I heard that, and I don't know where it originally came from. But I was supposed to, as far as I know, beat The Undertaker, obviously with a lot of help. And then Russell Batista at WrestleMania in Washington, D.C. Dave was announced as being from me is from Washington, D.C. So it was kind of like the era beats the hometown boy in the nation's capital. It was supposed to be the story. Wow. Yeah.

And obviously, we didn't get that. We did not get that, no. So when it all comes to an end, what made you not want to stay in wrestling? It took me a while to really figure it out. I think I was a little depressed. I was definitely heartbroken, you know, turned off. And the constant traveling and the spotlight, it's just, it was fun while it lasted, but it wasn't for me. And it took me a while to figure out that I just didn't want to get back in there because it really was a huge heartbreaking moment for me.

You know, you work so hard. You spend so much time, you know, just training, preparing. and then it's all taken away kind of for no reason that like I didn't do anything you know I didn't bomb any place and I and I understand why the character was taken off to me it absolutely had to be but I think that was the heartbreak for me is that I just I was just out there doing the best that I could and it kind of just was pulled out the rug was pulled out from under me again you you were too good I guess so you were too good at your job yeah why not rebrands you make you mark Magnus again um I had that conversation with several people at the time

And it is possible, but I wasn't going to be on TV for a long time because Hassan came so quick and had such a huge impact. They didn't feel like anybody would recognize me as another character, at least for a long time. And so that's why I was off TV and I was home. And then we ended up parting ways maybe a year later in the WB. And after that, I just didn't want to do it anymore. You know, I want to do other things. And like I said, that huge letdown, I think kind of just changed my perspective on things. And then made you fall out of love of.

With wrestling? For a long time, yeah. I would not face it for a long time. And that's why I never did a lot of signings or appearances or went anywhere else. It was almost like I was trying to avoid the reality of what had happened to me and as that character. But now, years later, like, I look back on it and I think it was a cool trip, you know, and sometimes because of it, my kids think I'm cool. And that's awesome.

I'll take it when I can get it. How long did it take you to be able to come to terms with that? 10 years. Wow. Probably. And is that when you did the, it was the article with Sean Ross Sapp, right? Right around that time? No, maybe it was a little longer.

A little bit later. Yeah. A little bit later. What made you, I don't know, kind of closed the chapter on that? Um, I don't know. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason why I choose to do an interview or not. But he had a great pitch. Um, he pitched that story more as a entire piece about what had happened.

and he did a great job. I love that story. I just saw him yesterday. So closing the chapter and then moving into education and just kind of finding my life, I think, after 10 plus years, I think, is kind of what brought me back around. I don't avoid it anymore. And I got to thank, Sean.

He was the one that originally connected us when we did that Zoom interview. Three years ago? It was a long time ago, man. I'd love to see it. I should have watched before I came here, see how much gray, less gray hair I had. And you're just as handsome as you were in that.

video. There's nothing like doing these in person, though. Yeah, no. Nothing quite like that. Zoom was a weird time, man. Zoom meetings were, the memory I would like to not have anymore. Especially working in education. It was probably so weird. Everything was Zoom. Classrooms. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When we were virtual and we did hybrid, like half the kids are in school, half are learning at home. It was very challenging to be a principal at that time to try to arrange schedules and make something that could really serve the needs of students in any capacity. I remember when I was in school since the late 90s, like, suck. It was such a big thing, right? Yeah.

I wonder with the renaissance of wrestling right now, what teachers and principals are going to have to deal with in this era, right? What are you guys going to have to be banning now? That's a great question. I have no idea. Yeah, because wrestling is certainly teetering on not being PG anymore. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's what I hear. There's some stuff going on there. So it'll be very interesting to see what that is. And it's cool to see kids walk around with wrestling shirts. They all ask if I know, like, you know, the newer guys, like Roman Rain. and, you know, like Seth, and I don't know anyone. I've never met any of them, but I do enjoy watching them. They're really talented.

But I mean, it's cool to see them because they know me, but they don't really know. You know, they're all too, you know, not born to watch me when I was wrestling. But it's positive interactions whenever wrestling comes up in school. In a way, it's almost like you have two very separate lives, right? Like you had the life of I was this professional wrestler's WWE superstar up until this very specific moment when this thing happened. And then this new life began after that. Is it strange?

It's strange. Like I was I was just laughing the whole time downstairs. It's just so funny to me that people want to pay to actually have me sign something. I'm like, I sent to the guys that I was with it. I was like, all I do is sign things at work. Like that's my job to sign things at work. It's just so funny to me and it's cool. It really is.

I really do appreciate it. But it is two different worlds. Like I said, that is life and this is not real life. You know, and to be able to live both of them right now is kind of cool. You had a match, though. Like you returned, was it 2018? I think so, yeah. What made you want to go back in the ring?

You know, it's funny. I was just there to sign, and you always bring your gear with you. So I was going to do a signing, and the guy was like, do you want to wrestle a match? I was like, yeah, I guess I do. Like, there was no big story. There was no huge. It was just kind of like, well, you're here and you want to wrestle. And I was like, yeah, why not?

So I put my stuff on, got the ring, messed around a little bit. And then ended up just wrestling a match for like 10, 15, in. So it was a lot of fun. And then I did like one or two more. It's kind of like I just wanted to see if I could do it again, you know, like it had been so long. And I really enjoyed the wrestling aspect of being a wrestler, you know, like being in the ring and working with somebody in the ring. So I just did it. There was, there was not a lot of thought put into it, man, it was spontaneous. Was there ever thought of like, this could turn into a run? No. Absolutely not. I don't want to travel. I don't want to do. I mean, absolutely not. And I don't

want to put my body through that. It's been rough enough as it is getting old, like I said. So absolutely not. Never. I just wanted to have a couple matches. There were small local shows, local promoters, nice guys. So it was just something to do. I did, I think, two or three matches, and that was it. I'll never do it again. The United States Soccer Federation present the U.S. Soccer Podcast. My name is David Goss, and I'm joined by my co-host, Megan Clevenberg. And now we're giving people an inside look at the World Cup. Time's ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are. wanting to really take their claimant and they want to be on that World Cup roster.

There's no doubt about it. Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer Podcast, presented by Henco. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You always hear wrestlers after they retire talking about how they missed the reaction from the crowd. They miss that pop, right? Whether it's cheers or booze, they miss it. And it's a drug that you can't replicate with anything else.

Did you miss that when you were gone? A little bit. Not as much, not as much as you might think. But I was very much compartmentalizing everything that had happened. So like I do miss it. I do miss the reaction, but it's not anything that I crave and anything that I am looking forward to or wanting to do again. You know what I mean? Like I said, that was a different life for me now.

But 2005, six, seven, were you thinking like, well, if I did this, we could get back there. If I tried this. I wasn't. Wow. I dropped it and I was done. Like, I avoided it at all costs. That never happens in wrestling. You're like the one person.

That's what I hear, but I needed to be completely away from it to move on. And it took, like I said, a long time. And that's why I detached myself because I just didn't want any encounter with wrestling whatsoever. I avoided it and I avoided the heartbreak and the feelings. And so I never thought of coming back. I was done. I was done. And that was kind of my feeling about it.

Did you have moments in the months after you were let go where people are recognizing you? Oh, yeah. And then it's a constant reminder of the life that was. Yeah, well, I lived in L.A. not too long after, and no one really cared about me. So that was nice. That's kind of the great thing about L.A. It's got a great thing. No one's impressed.

Yeah, I always see these celebrities all the time. But I would go home and that would happen at home. And, you know, like I said, I avoided it and I didn't talk about it much. But obviously, I'd always say hi to somebody and, you know, I'll be cordial. Is L.A. where you became friends with Shad? No, I had been friends with Shad since Louisville. We were at OVW together. Wow.

And so we were down there for years. We hung out all the time. In L.A. is where Shad and I had originally written a screenplay called Assassin and Son. So he was traveling and I wasn't. And so he would come stay with me. We work on it collaboratively. We talk over the phone late nights after his shows. And we wrote Assassin and Son was a screenplay that years later, Shad actually produced into a graphic novel.

And then the funny thing is now, stage tree productions, Scout Comics are taking the graphic novel. and rewriting it as a screenplay. Wow. And so we had announced a while ago that we're working with stage street productions. They're amazing. So we had a creative meeting not too long ago. It looks like it takes time, but it looks like it's on track.

And I love the ideas that these guys have. So I'm super confident. And I was just thrilled after that meeting. Last time you're on the show, we talked about Assassin and Son as the graphic novel. Yep. How did that launch go and how did everything go with that? Not bad. We didn't release a lot of them.

Unfortunately, we only had very, very old files and those files couldn't really be updated to the quality of comics that people are used to. But we really were just doing that as a pitch as a selling point. And so once Scout started shopping the idea around, we hooked up with Stage Street. And the whole goal was to get it made into a movie. I'm super excited. And I hope, I can't wait for it to happen. It's going to be a great movie. That's one of the favorite, most favorite things that I have done in my life is working on that with Shad. Wow. Yeah. Everyone I talked to about Shad has nothing but great things to say about him. It just sounds like he was such a great person.

Selfless. He's definitely saved my butt a few times, too. Selfless and fierce. You know, like, no one's messing with Shad. But somebody said at his memorial, I loved it, Shad would give you the shirt off his back if he ever wore a shirt. Because that was Shad, he never wore a shirt. But selfless guy, he'd do anything for anybody. Was there a particular promo in WWE that you were given and you were like, I can't believe we're going to go out there and say this. Not really because I was really got to a point where I was giving ideas. And it's like just go out there and you can't really script, especially with the reaction from the crowd,

some of those promos because the crowd reaction is going to drown you out. So we would be given ideas. We go out and we just kind of talk. Like a lot of it was improvised. And it was so easy to be my character because if I got lost or if I got stuck and I couldn't remember something or couldn't find the words, I would just stop and they would start booing. It was just,

it was the best built-in, like, safety net you could possibly have. And so, or they were doing what at the time, so they would chant what. So those promos were, those were a lot of fun. That might be my most favorite thing to do, but they were pretty unscripted for the most part. That's what's interesting about your characters.

People remember the promos more than the wrestling. And I, maybe that's just memorable, right? I don't know how to take that. Wrestling was forgettable, but that was mediocre at best. I totally get it. But the promos, I think, because of what was said and the impact that they had on people, I think that's why people remember them. Yeah.

And that's not to say your wrestling wasn't great. It's that your promos were that, like, so memorable. Yeah, they were, they were a lot of fun. And they were impactful, man. They really, they generated a ton of heat. Like, I obviously, I don't know this for a fact, but I don't know if you wrestle the match without a promo. It feels like you came out every time I had to cut a promo.

I don't think I did. And it was draining sometimes. You know, I was young. I didn't know what I was doing. And I was going to a show and doing a backstage vignette, then a promo in the ring, and then a match. You know, a big part of that show was a lot of pressure at that age. But I was busy all the time.

How did you stay in that kind of shape when you were on the road? I got out of good shape when I was on the road. Like the first promo pictures of me where I don't know, I still have them. They're white background. I was like ripped. And by the one where I'm in black, I definitely look like I put on 10 pounds.

It's really hard on the road. It's hard to have that consistency and it's hard to eat because it's like you got to eat fast food all the time. It's not like you can meal prep and bring it on the plane with you. I mean, I guess you could, but it's tough to stay in shape like that. Yeah, when you're getting off of raw and it's 1130 or midnight. What's open? Nothing.

I used to eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, uncrustables. They would have them in the truck. I'd go back, they'd give me a handful every time. I was starving by the end of the night. I bet you were. Although isn't catering great? Catering's great, but it's only for before the show. Oh.

So I don't think it's, yeah. So there's really not much to eat afterwards. You made it work. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. And obviously your diet's super dialed in now. I am. I really, like I always say that what keeps me in good shape is my focus on my diet.

I count everything. I count my macros. I'll even count alcohol if I have alcohol in a night. I'll count all those calories. And I enjoy doing that. It's not a burden for me. It's not a hardship. Like I would be uncomfortable almost not doing it.

Like it's tough when I have days where I don't. But huge in my diet, run all the time. I never did cardio when I was younger. I didn't have to. I was wrestling, you know. And I work out. moderately. I don't push it, but, you know, time under tension, nice controlled reps. I really enjoy it. Where do you track your macros? Like on an app?

My Fitness Bell. Oh, yeah. Same one. I don't look like that, though. Yeah, maybe one day. Not too far off. I don't know. It's just a very tight shirt. Very tight shirt. I wonder when we'll see you again, like at one of these cons. I don't know. I might do. I mean, I know it's in Minneapolis next year. Is that official? That's what I had heard anyway. I need still rumor, but yeah. Okay. That's what I had heard yesterday. But I would, I would, I would, go there. I mean, I would do these bigger shows, but probably not, I don't know, probably not for a couple years. Well, it's good to see you. No one's going to come get my autograph if I come to have

your show. Ah, yeah. That's true. Yeah. And when you say you sign stuff at work all day, you're definitely not signing as Muhammad and Song. Definitely not sign as Mohammed and his son. No, absolutely not. What was it like back then? People wanted autographs and merch from baby faces. Are they asking for autographs from heels? They were, but I wasn't allowed to sign autographs. Really? I was not allowed two. Yeah. And it was tough because, you know, I had kids who come up and ask me and I would always sneak one in for the kids as no one was watching. But yeah, we were, we were our characters when we traveled, uh, went to the arena all the way to the hotel room. There's just total K-fabe. Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. So if someone came up to you and asked for an

autograph, what would you say? No. Wow. Wow. No, I'd have to say no. And people would get pissed. I get it, but it's like, I'm like, I'm like, all right, dude, I'm just doing my job. They don't get that. You wanted me to be pissed. You know, that same guy's going to be at the show later that day. It's going to be booing the crap out of me. Wow. They wanted, yeah. Wow, they told you not to sign autographs. Or not to take photos. Uh, yeah, no, no photos either. Different time back then. I don't think they do that now. It's, it's more accepted as a show, but even back then, um, they try to keep some sort of reality, you know, continuity between the show and real life with the character like that. I don't think,

people realize you guys stayed in character all the time. Pretty much, yeah. I don't know if there was anyone else at that time staying in character the whole time. Like, Kane's not going to the airport wearing a mask. No, I don't think anybody really did it back then. There might have been one or two, but, yeah. John Cena's not rapping to people at the airport. You never know. He might have been.

That's true. He might have been. Yeah, that was it, man. We were heels the whole time. Wow. And you did it. Yeah. How often do you keep in touch with Sean now? We went out last night, Sean and I probably had a few too many last night.

So we hadn't seen each other since last year. He was in town, I think it was last year, Easter. He'd come home with my family's house for dinner. And we talk every couple weeks, a couple months. And he's doing big things in WW. He's awesome, man. He always had that mind for wrestling. So he's working.

He's there today. But he's very successful. Yeah, for people who don't know, he's working behind the scenes as a producer. Yep. His story is wild. Was he 19 when he joined you? God, I think he was like 14. I said he was 19.

He was young. But yeah, he was like right out of high school, I think, when he joined us. That's wild. Yeah. He was the baby of OVW. And you guys made it work. Yeah. Well, he's great, man.

We had great chemistry. We're good friends. And we got to be really close when we were traveling. Because him and I travel together, usually just us. Sometimes Sninsky would ride with us or Chris Masters. But we got pretty tight. He's awesome. Great guy.

You're awesome. You're a great guy. So good to be able to. catch up with you in person. Absolutely, Ben. What a story you have. Well, thank you. Yeah.

How long until Dark Side of the Ring reaches out to you? Have they reached out to you? I hope they don't, man. Those shows are always so depressing about bad stuff. Like, I don't need that, but no, I've never heard from anybody. You're the character that, you know, never got to, you know, be seen all the way through. Yeah, the What If? You're the What If?

I am. This is a Dark Side of the Ring story for sure. Yeah. I've now put it out there for you. We're going to get a call for next season, I bet. Thank you. Hopefully it'll make it look too tragic. No.

No, your story is what it is. Yeah. I end every interview with gratitude because it's a huge part of my life. I wake up every day and I say out loud, three things I'm grateful for. I do it at the end of every day too. What are three things that you're grateful for? My family, first and four and all. My wife, who is very understanding and amazing and my colleagues as well.

And I'm thankful for really thankful to have the opportunity to work in education with kids. and with the adults that teach the kids every day. I love it. Thank you, Mark. Thank you. You're awesome. Such an interesting story. And I love his approach, like this whole idea of that was a chapter of my life.

That happened. It was great. Now I'm doing this other thing, and I love it, and I'm passionate about it. And like we talked about there, he's still very passionate about being in the gym and dude looks great. I mean, a little bit grayer maybe now than the last time you saw him. He was at his 20s. When we saw him in WWE, now he's in his 40s, still looks like an absolute beast. Great conversation and a really big what if, right?

Like, what if, I don't know, what if they hadn't pushed the envelope so much with that character? What if it was done in a slightly different time, but, you know, then it wouldn't have worked. And I don't know, what if questions I feel like never really worked because it is what it is. And it's the situation that it is. And for that very brief moment in time, the nine months that he was in WWE, we got some of the best heel work ever, like in the history of wrestling. That's what we got from him. Snap a screenshot. Let us know what you enjoyed from this episode and tag us.

He's at Mark Kopani on Instagram. Give him a follow. Give him a follow in there and let him know how much his character work meant to you as Muhammad Asan. And tag me as well. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. And I'll leave you with this quote from Muhammad Ali. I've seen this before, but I saw it this week and just like, I don't punch me like a, like right in the gut.

He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life. Be great and be grateful, my friends. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. It's Ask, CV, number 38 tomorrow. Send in your questions and we'll get to them ahead of Money in the Bank this weekend in Toronto. And also I'm going to money in the bank, so I'll see you there. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do.

With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it. Get up in here.

The Jim Rome Show podcast. What should be? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.