Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Peter Rosenberg: John Cena's Last Match, Getting Hired By WWE, Vince McMahon Interview, Hip Hop Mount Rushmore

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Get tickets for Insight LIVE in San Diego & Las Vegas! https://cvvtix.com Peter Rosenberg (@RosenbergRadio) is a broadcaster and WWE panelist. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Indianapolis, IN to discuss his journey from ESPN to WWE, previously interviewing Vince McMahon about getting a job at WWE, why Bobby Heenan is his number one manager in wrestling, if Randy Savage is the GOAT, who could be John Cena's final opponent, his hip hop Mount Rushmore, and more!   Please support our sponsors!   PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/?ref=tibcloux   SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV2025 Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount   NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup!  TIMELINE: Go to https://timeline.com/insightto get 10% off your order of Mitopure!   VUORI: Get 20% off your first purchase! Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at https://vuori.com/cvv   ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and reach your financial goals faster: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/CVV and use the code CVV to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF   ZOCDOC: Instantly book a top-rated doctor today at https://zocdoc.com/insight   BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv   BLUECHEW: Get your first month of BlueChew for free with the code CVV at https://bluechew.com   For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Great to see you. Fantastic. I'm excited to do this. I've been looking forward to the chance to do it, and the stars aligned, and we're having this moment now, and everything happens for reason. I love it, because when you go way back in the YouTube machine, it was you, it was Sam Roberts,

and to a lesser extent, it was me in the early days of doing wrestling interviews. Yep. And I just remember seeing your stuff back then long before I ever met you. Yeah. And we had a similar path that we worked in broadcasting, but we had access to these celebrities and especially wrestlers. So like you got to merge together the two things, the love of wrestling

and then the job you have with broadcasting. That's exactly right. It was, it was the broadcast credibility gave you an end to get other things. And in those early days when I started doing interviews, I really was among the only sort of big outlets that was reaching out to be. be like, hey, can I please have talent? Yeah. And yeah, that kind of set the course for everything that's happened for me. Because I feel like it was the reverse for a long time. Wrestling companies were going, please would you interview our talent?

And I think a lot of morning shows would be like, yeah, I guess, whatever. But people like me and you were like, yes, of course. Please bring them, bring them. Exactly. So Hot 97, my radio station in New York, you know, particularly at the time that I got there, obviously radio has changed a lot. but when I got there in 07, them having access to bringing, you know, emerging talent,

not just, like, when I got there, Sina had already been there once before, several years earlier when he was rapping. He got there promoting his album. Yeah. And did the morning show then, whatever year that was, oh, 3,04, something like that. And then I get there in 07,

there really hadn't been much since. So in New York City, where, as you know, W.W.E. always sees its home. Yeah. to have like someone in their backyard who wanted to put them on a morning show at a time when getting on a morning show was still impactful. Like we're not even talking about videos,

like just showing up and talking on the radio is a thing. Yeah, I ended up getting to become sort of an ally. And the whole time I'm thinking, this is awesome. And I feel like there could be more here. Let me just stay with it, you know. Who was your first wrestling interview? My first wrestling interview. Well, then we have to go prior to the,

that. So you go several years earlier, I was still in D.C., hustling and radio in 2005-ish, and I had a show at a talk station. Howard Stern was on in the morning, and I was doing nights, and then eventually I got middays, and they, like you said, can we bring wrestling people to your show? Yeah. And they asked me if I wanted to interview Taz and Michael Cole, who were the voices of SmackDown. At that time, I'm not watching wrestling. I know who they both are, but I'm like just not really in anymore.

But you were a big fan growing up. Yeah, so I just phased out. Correct. So I had been fully lapsed at this point for like a decade. I mean, during the attitude era, and Sam loves to make fun of me for this, that I was gone during the best time ever. But during the attitude era, it's 97, 90,

I started college in 19. So there were kids on my hall who were watching the Monday Night Wars. And I would like peek in and I still was, I still felt a connection to it, but I was just so into my, my hip hop stuff at that point. All I was thinking about was interviewing artists, getting the new records, doing my college radio show, being outside. I just wasn't doing it. So I was always tangentially aware, but not involved. Yeah. So when 05 comes, at that point, I'm fully lapsed.

And yeah, Taz and Cole came on my show. And I remember it being a somewhat like contentious interview. Like this was the Michael Cole era. If you go back and watch Cole stuff in like 0, 3, 0, 405, when him and Taz, they even put, I even saw something moving around the other day virally. Him and Taz had a lot of edge, like particularly when they were not doing Smackdown. But like, if you would see them on a, like, bite them. Yes, there's a viral clip on Bite This. Exactly.

Of Michael Cole just chewing someone out. Chewing everyone. That is the call I got when he came to the rate. Like he was, you know, ready to go. And they were dealing with an arrow when people were kind of, to your point, not really giving them proper interviews. And I also think that Michael Cole was in the shadow of JR. With great respect to Michael Cole and everything he's done his career, I think he was always at that point being compared to JR. Oh, yeah.

Well, for sure. that point when you look at it timeline wise, you know, now that Cole's been here so long, it was still relatively early. I mean, Cole was 10 years in. Like, I'm sure at the time, he was ready, but in reality, he was still pretty new, you know. And so I think that him and Taz, A, they both had interest in doing radio. So they wanted to do a radio show. They were hustling to do a radio show. And they did a bunch of shows together. You could probably find them. There are Taz and Cole radio shows that happened. And so they came in and sort of, we busted each other's balls and did an interview and after that,

there was a guy who was doing the local WWE sort of promo at that time in the DC area named Joe Palkowski. And it's just funny, all the people along the way who were part of why I ended up with my whole life being different. Pelkowski would invite me to shows.

He'd be like, hey, you want to come? They're in town, tickets. Oh, hey, I got some DVDs. All the regular radio promo stuff. Yeah. And then I started watching the, I turned on the product. And I swear to you, I heard my time is now playing. And when I heard the brapadoo, which is an MOP sample from the song Annie Up, I'm like,

I remember looking at the screen. I'm like, wait, someone's, is MOP there? What is going on? And I see it's this rapping John Cena guy. And it immediately got me to start paying attention. And so the combination of that interview. of that interview with Taz and Cole and then that kind of brought me back.

So I'd say Taz and Cole super early. I know I interviewed at that time, Booker T and Charmel. I've been looking for it. I can't find it, though I know I have it somewhere. I did a phoner with Bobby the Brain Heenan at that time,

which I'd probably be mortified to hear because I didn't know anything. I was just being a fan boy. I just remember the one sentence I remember from the interview, because you know how these interviews are. You literally, even though they mean a lot to you, you don't even remember anything.

There are so many, and you're in it at the time and then you move on. But I do remember Heenan Mansoon had passed away within a couple of years of the interview. And when Bobby came on, one of the first things I said was, you know, Bobby, I was really sorry to hear about Gorilla Monsoon. And in classic, Bobby Heenan fashion, his response was just, so was he.

And that was it. So, yeah, those were the early ones. And then when I got to hot, Sino was relatively early up there. But I did everything. I mean, it was Sean Michaels. It was Hulk Hogan. It was the Mizz the second he won the title. Alberto Del Rio, the second he won the Rumble.

Punk multiple times in the middle of everything. I remember one time when punk, they reached out to me and said, punk wants to know, I wonder if he remembers this. Punk wants to know if he can come on your show tomorrow morning. He's got something to say to Chris Brown. Wow. And it's out there. There's a YouTube clip.

Chris Brown. Yeah. It was like he, it was after the Chris Brown Rihanna controversy and, you know, punk, man of the people that he is, right side of history kind of guy that C.M. Punk is. He was like, I want to go up there and talk. So yeah. But during that time, it was, you know, MVP and Mark Henry and Mr. Kennedy who shaved my head,

The way, the way I got to my, my bald head was doing a bit with Kennedy, where if I lost the game, which I knew I would do because I had, I know I needed to shave my head. Kennedy shaved my head. Like, it was everybody, man. Man, what do you think your first real love, your first real passion was? Was it broadcasting? Was it hip hop or was it wrestling? God, that's, you know, it's so funny that I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. They all came at such, like, in a very tight window. I think it may have been broadcasting without knowing it. Just storytelling. Or just hearing the radio and liking it. Sure, because the through line in all three of those is storytelling.

Exactly, exactly. But hip hop, I always say, for me was 87, right? 87, 88 was the beginning of me hearing hip hop and being like, wow, I like this. through my brother, who's four and a half years older, we would visit my grandparents in New York, and I don't know how my brother caught wind of, you know, you got to turn on these radio stations in New York, 107.5 WBLS and 987 Kiss,

but at night they're playing all rap. And now I'm like so grateful that he did it because I got to hear DJ Red Alert and Marley Marl on the radio, which is literally the most iconic moment in the history of hip-hop. So to have been in New York, even though I'm not from there, we visited so often. So to have been in my grandparents' house with the radio on hearing that was amazing. But in that exact same time, my wrestling, the number one with a bullet era was the lead-up

to WrestleMania 3, 87. So it's all right in that window, I guess, of me being like seven, eight, nine years old. I'm falling in love with kind of all of it. So your number one wrestling era is late 80s? Well, now that I've watched everything and kind of taking it all in, I don't know if I view it the exact same way. Like my manager and co-host on my podcast, Dip, it's all like 87 to 90, like everything that happened, maybe even 91, everything that happened. I love a lot, but I think that, you know, if, just to be dark, if we, if in our last moments on this world, you get to have that, like, flash of all the things that like hit your heart the most. I would say it's the way arenas

looked and felt in 87, 88 with Savage and Hogan and Brett and Elizabeth and that's probably it. And I say it all the time. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug. And I think that that's exactly what you're talking about there. Like that there's something about that era, that time that meant so much to you in your life. You know, maybe if a 20 year old kid watches 87 wrestling, it doesn't mean it to them. But when that was the era for you growing up that sucked you into it, that's it for you. Yeah. Well, Tyrese Halliburton on our ESPN, we did our first ESPN show yesterday. And Tyrese was like a guest analyst who was awesome, by the way. He was talking about 0-2, 0-3, 04 exactly the same way. Because he was a baby. He was a little kid with his uncle watching the product. Which is so interesting because,

objectively speaking, that was a tough time. Right after the WCWWE merger and like the roster was super bloated at that point in time and a lot of guys weren't really getting a fair shot. It was rough for a little while. But think about it like this though. Other side of that coin, because I would argue that it's roughest time was when I decided to get into it. Yeah, it was a rough time.

Because 05 was still good, but 06, 07, 08, it starts to get pretty murky there. Yeah. Especially with no competition. Exactly. It was, it was, yeah, we can get into that. There was some tough stuff that I stuck through there at the beginning. But 0-203, you look at the roster. And even if the stuff you're saying is true, which it is, just look at who's there.

I know. It's every, it's all the- Literally everybody, except for Sting. It's everybody else. Everybody but Sting who existed in your childhood was there. Plus, plus Brock, Sina, young Batista, all these people. So it really is, while it wasn't a perfect product, yeah, you can't beat the rock. That is, to me, that is the greatest roster.

I don't know if that roster can ever be beat. I know the one we're getting to right now is getting close. But that roster is insane. Flair is still pretty young in retrospect. Yeah. Like, HBK comes back. It's crazy. That's also the era we got, you know, Rock Hogan and WrestleMania 17,

followed by 18, 19. Like, that was a good run. You watch a random episode of Smackdown or Raw from that era. Yeah. And segment by segment, the people you're seeing are just like, wait, hold on. It's young Randy Orton that they're cutting to a backstage and it's Hogan. Then there everyone's there together at one time.

It's like kind of, I think one day we'll see memes online like, yo, do you know there was a time when this happened? You know, so it is an iconic era in that way. And I think that's very similar to the era we're in right now. And it's hard to appreciate something when you're in it. But I think that if you were to zoom out, just a little bit. and see the amount of talent that's in wrestling right now, you can go, man, these are the good old days.

It's completely true, and particularly this exact moment where you have Sina and you have punk. I mean, these guys are not, you know, and you have Brock. We're also busy focused on John that we're not thinking about the fact that, you know, Brock came in the same time, you know?

AJ Stiles says that he's not going to wrestle past 50, so we've got less than two years left of him. How much longer is Randy Orton going to be with us? Like, a lot of great talent right now. And then the young guys and girls are so good. So I couldn't agree with it. It's the beginning. People will feel the same way that they're like, wait a second. John Cena had a segment and then Ria Ripley's there and then Bianca Bel Air is there. And then, oh, Stephanie Vakere was the new person just coming up. Right. And then there was a young Tiffany Stratton. It's crazy. Right. It's unbelievable. And I think that people get like kind of lost in the weeds.

sometimes of like things are, there's a lot of great wrestling right now. Yeah, I, listen, every show is not going to be the greatest show of all time. But the PLEs are, these days all really, really good. You know, and I would say the same thing about AEW.

Week to week, you can have your complaints. But when the shows, when the pay-per-views come around, I mean, you might have to take no dose to complete it. but it's filled with matches that you're like, well, I'm going to wake up the next day and watch the rest of it. I want to see all of these matches. So you have two companies both doing really great premium live events. It's a pretty glorious time.

And like, I didn't think we'd ever have competition again. So the fact that there's now, and I understand competition is a whatever word because WWE is just in a different stratosphere. Cool. But that's not how I think about things. I think about competition just in what it means for those of us who earn a salary in wrestling. And if you earn a salary in wrestling, another company that puts on a good product existing is awesome. And look at how many of our friends have jobs with a company because there's more than one option now.

That's exactly right. And so I love that we're in this time. And I love that you mentioned AJ. I remember thinking AJ styles will never be in WWW. Like, same. I just, it was, he was a lifer. You know, I worked with TNA for a, for a cup of coffee and got to like, see him there and be like, man, it's so. You were in TNA?

Well, in TNA would be an aggressive way of putting in. With TNA? I did a podcast for TNA, which I've looked for recently. It is gone. I mean, I don't know how you would find it. What year was this? If anyone out there can find the total nonstop podcast, I would love to hear it. Me and my friend Andrew Goldstein did it.

I'd say this is like Hogan era-ish. So like a 2011-ish? Yeah, something like that. I'm a big TNA guy. Oh, so yeah. So we did a podcast. They were trying to get a thing going. And my friend Andrew at the time was a producer at Spike.

So it kind of all came together through that. And I was, of course, just finding I wanted anyway. You know, at that point, I had done things indie. I had popped up at, done a guest announcing at a Ring of Honor show. I just did anything I could do. TNA would come and do their baseball shows in Coney Island, and I would go be, you know, a guest manager for Thea,

for Zelina Vega at the time, Thea Trinidad. So I would like go do these different things. And then I did the podcast and we interviewed Dixie and the Hardys and AJ. And so, yeah, I've basically done everything there was to do on some level till I eventually found my footing. This episode is brought to you by Timeline.

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You did an interview with Vince McMahon in 2008. And in that interview, you ask him for a job at WWE. Yeah. You pitch yourself. Yeah. And he says, well, let's talk. Well, come on up. Let's talk.

Let's talk. Yeah. Did that in any way lead to you working at WWA? No, not whatsoever. It was a really interesting lesson because I love that clip. And every once in a while, it'll, like, go a little bit viral because it's like a cool moment to see someone kind of shooting their shot and then look where they are now. Totally inspirational to my, even myself to see it.

It reminds me of stuff. But at the same time, the real behind the scenes was I took it seriously. And this shows how different the company was then. And I tried to, like, reach out to different people to like make it happen. At that time? Yes, at that time. I don't even remember exactly who shot me down, but someone was very matter of fact of like,

do not do that. Like, it don't show up here. And I was like, Oh, you showed up? No, I was going to. Oh. And then when I reached out to someone who I either was connected to or found a way to was like very much like,

no, don't do that. And it's interesting. Who knows what would have happened had I shown up one day to Titan Towers and said, no, Vince McMahon asked me to come up here. can someone at least ask him, who knows? Because, you know, he is a grab the brass ring kind of guy. And that was me shooting my shot. Like, I just thought at the time, when am I ever getting a chance to talk to Vincent

McMahon? It happened one other time. I interviewed him two times very briefly at events in New York. And so, no, it did not lead to that at all. It came, the opportunities came because of other great people years later. Yeah. So how did you get your job with WWE? So I was at ESPN already.

I just started ESPN. I just celebrated 10 years at ESPN. So 2015, 16-ish, whenever, Jonathan Coachman started, he brought back in like 2016-17, he brought back doing those sports center off the ropes segments where he would, he started leaning back into his wrestling thing and got ESPN, as I understand it, kind of convinced ESPN who at that time were kind of wrestling averse, but convinced people like, hey, there's something here. Let's start covering the big events. So Coach started doing that. Coach and I did a radio show together, I think, in Bristol. I don't know if we did a whole show together, though I think

we may have. And at this point in time, Bristol was kind of figuring out where they were going to put me. I was like sort of hot at the moment. And they were like, we really like him. Where's he going to go? And I was doing different things locally in New York. I was doing Ryan Rosillo show. I was just doing different things. Coach and I ended up meeting. He knew what a wrestling fan I was. We immediately like hit it off and talked to wrestling. So when he went to go to sports center at WrestleMania, I believe in New Orleans, at that time, what year was? So no, it was in, it was in, it was in, it was Dallas. 17. He goes, he says to me, because I'm already there. At that point, I'm already going to Maineer every year. I'm doing cheap heat live. I'm doing all my indie wrestling stuff.

on my own, podcast, interviews. You know, I have a relationship with the company where they're giving me talent. I was also one of the first people, you know, Sam and I were on Radio Row in those very early days. Radio Row was much smaller and busted open would be there. It was very early days. Now it looks that way at least.

And so Coach says, if you want to come with me, like I worked at ESPN now. He's like, I'll get you a pass. You can just come with me to all the WrestleMania stuff. And I was like, okay, that's awesome. So he got me one of the passes. for the weekend, and I just kind of tagged along. So I went to Hall of Fame with him.

They did stuff there. I did a couple of segments with him on the desk. I don't even know if it ever got used. I know me and him interviewed Snoop Dogg. Like, you know, so I'm doing ESPN stuff. And at one point at WrestleMania, I'm standing off to the side, watching him do a sports center break. And a guy strikes up a conversation with me.

And his name was Chris Chambers. and Chambers just starts like asking me about what I do. And I'm like, well, I do hot 97 in the morning and now I'm at ESPN, but I've really loved doing wrestling and I would love to do it. WWE is kind of my dream, blah, blah, blah. And I definitely had said this before. But Chris Chambers, who anyone who's watching who from the company knows of how important he is, Chambers was a big deal at this company.

He is one of the quietest kept most. important TV guys we had. Just like you have Adam Panucci. Like there are these characters in WW who don't get the big. Everyone knew Kevin done. But there were obviously other people who were really important. And Chambers came from sports TV, had a really great eye for stuff. Famously, or at least famously to me, came up with the scratch design of the WWF attitude logo.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Like he's, he's the man, right? And so he's looking at me. And like for the first time, he just kind of, it clicked for him like I always hoped it would. He's like, wait, you're on Hot 97 and you're on ESPN and you want to be with us. You should give me a call. Like it was, he just sort of was like, I don't know, it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I hit him up like the next couple of weeks, didn't hear back from him. I waited like a month, hit him up again. He's like, my bad, swamped post-Resslemania. let's set a call. And then we set a call. And he's like, what do you think about joining our kickoff shows? He's a guy of two things for you.

We're thinking about doing a thing on kickoff shows where we bring in someone to be like a guest analyst. Meanwhile, Sam is having a separate conversation about the same thing that through Michael Cole. So like this conference, I believe through call. I don't want to speak for Sam, but I'm pretty short through Cole. So at Chambers says,

I want to talk about that. And we also have a show idea for you to maybe host, which turned out to be the show, bring it to the table, which we did for like a season, me, Graves and JBL, which was a ball. And when I go back and watch it every once in a while now,

it still exists like, I think it's on Bumpfiecock. It was a pretty cool show that we did. We kind of like were straddling the line, but like within WWU programming. It was cool stuff. Yeah. And he said,

so what do you think about coming in doing that? I was like, uh, yeah, dude. Yeah. And, um, and that was it. And, and so like by 4A,

I was a Chris Chambers guy. And then Chambers moved on and was doing different stuff and then retired from the company in the last couple years and plays a lot of golf in Florida now. Shout out to Chris Chambers. He's my dude. And shout out to coach. Because without coach asking me to come along for that journey,

I never end up here. And I'm just so fascinated by that idea in life that if you don't meet this person, it doesn't lead to this, which then doesn't lead to this and all of the things end up stacking out. It's like, it's kind of crazy. But it really is that back to the future thing.

That one... This movie of all time. completely agree. Oh, yes. Did we just become best friends? Dude, shout out to Brad Gilmore. Oh, love Brad. The number one back to the future.

The one person I see my back to the future love to. It's the greatest. He's written two books about Back to the Future. He's interviewed all of them. He goes very far with it. But, yeah, it's the greatest movie of all time. And it's because as you get older, and again, number one, nostalgia is a hell of a drug. It's the first great movie I ever saw probably, right?

So it hits and everything. Then the whole movies is. But it still holds up. Oh, it holds up perfectly. Of course, yeah. 40-year anniversary right now. I know. And I still want to buy a DeLorean.

Like, I look at them all the time. Dude. All the time. I've looked at DeLoreans a million times. 100%. And the sneakers. And like I never pulled the trigger on the sneakers. And now it's like, you know, it's forget.

It costs way too much money. I did something with Fluffy at his compound. And he has a DeLorean among all of his other VW buses. He's like 40 VW buses. I'm like, yeah, I know a guy. I'm like, yeah. Was it because of back to the future? Yeah.

Yeah. back to the future. But I just love this idea that back to the future reminds us moments matter, relationships matter. And it also reminds us just in life that like dream big. Like nothing is unattainable. Yeah, it's so true. And the movie itself is nostalgic. So it's not just that we're nostalgic for the movie. Yes. It's a movie about being nostalgic for America. Yeah. And 1955 in in the good ways about 1955, right? So yeah, it's perfect. It's absolutely perfect.

You know how you know how the sneakers are expensive? I remember that when Lin-Manuel Miranda, huge wrestling fan, shout to Lynn, when Hamilton blew up, like he bought the Marty McFly's. Like, so they've gotten that.

Like, it's a real gift to yourself at this point. It's like Rolex, presidential Rolex or the Marty McFly's, they're very expensive. They may be more than the Rolex. So when you were a kid, growing up in Chevy Chase, Maryland. Was this what you wanted to do for a living?

Was it, I want to be on the radio one day? Yeah, yeah. I don't think I knew exactly what it was. It was a mix of, I want to be Bob Costas, and I want to be Funkmaster Flex, and, you know, I want to be Bobby the Brain Heenan. You know, I just like the,

I just love the, Bob Costas did a Sunday night national syndicated radio, a show called Coast to Coast. And he is still to me, like, basically the greatest sports broadcaster there is. He's incredible to listen to him talk. He does not waste words, ever. There are no ums, there are no likes, there are no whims, there are slow, deliberate talking. So everything he says matters.

And he's just the greatest. So I would listen to him in my room and thought, this guy's incredible. I want to do this. but then as a teenager I'd go to New York and I'd hear Fundmaster Flex on the radio you know breaking all these new hip hop records and this is a different you know for the people out there who are hip hop heads who know Flex's style

this is younger Flex it's not exactly what you associate with the current Flex like even bigger personality this one was like a little more reserved but he was breaking the best records and he had drops from all the I mean his drops every rapper ever in the studio with him just hanging out like I mean I know some of them by heart but like you know old dirty bastard

sitting there being like you know biggie everyone was there I was like oh I want to be that guy um and then heenan tapped into sort of more of like my comedic you know uh artistic aspirations because I really do like I see heenan is probably like as talented a person as there's ever been in wrestling when you think about how he could actually get tossed around in the ring um and obviously he was a wrestler first, but even as a manager, the way he bumped as a manager was so impactful, right? So, like, physically he was awesome. His physical comedy was incredible. Like, you think about him coming out backwards at WrestleMania 9, right? Right. And then, and then just, you know, his comedy. And, like, yeah, obviously, the comedy he was doing then would not stand up

very well now in terms of a lot of the things that he said. But for the time he was in, he was the perfect heel commentator, you know, being a dumb bigot, saying bad things about Tito Santana and this, you know, at the time, being that way as a heel was appropriate, right? Like that, what's more healish than just being a bad guy? Can't get Tito Santana's name right, you know, um, but comedically the way he would like go off on P, he just, he was the best. He was the best. And Gorilla was perfect in, in the way that they went back and forth with each other. Is Bobby the brain, your number one manager of all time? Yes, he is.

And I say that, like, feeling Paul's, Paul Heyman's eyes glaring at me, but Paul's something different altogether. You know, Paul is, it's not, it's not quite fair to Bobby to put Paul in the same category. You know, Paul has, like, become this thing that is so much bigger than manager.

I mean, he's not a manager. Yeah. You know, he's an oracle, he's an advocate, he's a wise man, all those things, but he specifically chose, like, I'm going to be bigger than manager, which he is, like Paul's, I mean, and obviously behind the scenes and in every way in ECW, his legacy is just unmatched. But as far as managers go, oh, yeah, it's Bobby number one with a bullet. I mean, Jimmy is incredible too, by the way, and I absolutely adore Jimmy Hart, who sometimes

can end up in the shadow when we have these conversations. But Jimmy was such a heat magnet also and did so many things well is the best guy is still Jimmy Hart to this day. So I love Jimmy. But yeah, for me, Bobby was my guy. And I, before he passed, I got a moment at Russell Khan to, like, pour my heart out to him. He wasn't communicative at the time. So I don't know, you know, I know he received it because I know that for him, his issue at that time was he just couldn't communicate back. His brain was fully intact. But I got a moment, and it was, but I just started with the company to like, I like go up to him and just thank him for everything

and tell him how much he affected my entire journey and how great that I thought that he was. And I ended up writing his obituary for ESPN.com. I just, I adored him. I just like, I didn't know him, but like, and I'm sure he was a handful in a million different ways. It certainly seems that way from a distance, but he just, he was the man, dude.

Like the talent put in that frame, like there was just, he could have done so many things. who's your all-time favorite wrestler? Any era, all of it, but like when you look at their matches, you look at their promos, their moments, that's the person for you. So this is a battle in my heart,

no pun intended. Because the first two wrestlers that I essentially fell in love with were Brett and Savage, right? And Brett, Brett was the first wrestler who without any understanding, of why he was good,

I just knew he was good. Like, that's how good Brett was as a wrestler. That, like, as an eight, nine-year-old, I was like, I don't even know what makes a good wrestler. But everything he does looks awesome. Yeah, right? So crisp in the ring. Everything always.

And the pink and black was awesome and his look was awesome. And I got the glasses as a kid. I always wanted to be the kid that he passed the glass. Come on. So did everyone. We all dress. We all dressed.

But I did get the replica ones that they sold. And that was exciting as well. So Brett, but Savage to me in some ways, like, I think gets left out of the goat conversation too often. I think Savage was just brilliant. I mean, from the second he arrived in WWF, because obviously I hadn't seen him prior to that. To me, he was brand new when he got there. from the second he got there, immediate impact. Like just grabbed everyone's attention.

Everyone hated him. And then everyone loved him. And when you go back, what makes macho man the perfect wrestler was that good guy, I give him a hundred as a good guy. Like he was as a baby face, awesome. Yeah. As a heel, clearly a hundred. Like there's maybe nobody better.

He was so easy to hate. From a wrestling style standpoint, big guy, little guy. Put him in the ring with Ricky Steamboat, who's not a little guy, but on the smaller side relative to the biggest guys. Him and Steamboat have an absolute classic. Put him in the ring with Andre.

You know, no problem. Gold. You could put him in with anyone and everyone looks good. and then on the mic and in the ring. In the ring to me, he's perfect. On the mic, obviously, I wouldn't give him 100 on the mic because when you look back as funny and, you know, animated as the promos are,

I guess they didn't always make a lot of sense. But when he was locked in and trying to deliver a message completely there. I don't know if his promos needed to make sense. Right. It's just the feeling that he made you feel. Exactly. That's me even looking back at it with a stupid 2025 nerdy, let's break it all down attitude.

He's perfect at everything. So it could have lasted longer. And once, I will say, like, the run on top was kind of short in retrospect. And then, you know, once, once the him and Elizabeth got back together, it was sort of the beginning of the end. And then he ends up on commentary. And then he's gone. And then, of course, the WCW stuff, he had some good moments there, but it wasn't iconic.

Yeah, it's not the same. So I get why he doesn't get put in that conversation. I get it. Oh, and I'm leaving out one thing. cultural impact. That's right. He's bigger than wrestling. So how many people,

so I got into this argument the other day, we talk about modern stars now, who we love. But when people try to put them on the Mount Rushmore, if we're basing it, if we're including cultural impact, I say, how do you put them ahead of a guy

who to this day has multiple catchphrases that like your mom might know. You know, macho man is, Hogan gets all the credit for it and with a lot of good reason. But, and I get it, I get it. Hogan was the guy. He wanted to be on the Hogan show because the Hogan show was the one that made all the money and then macho show might do what not.

Fine. We're getting into weeds. But machos is, after Hogan, he's basically as big as it gets. Look, he's synonymous with Slim Jim. You might not even watch wrestling. Confirmed. And you know. Snap into a Slim Jim.

Between Snap into a Slim Gym and ooh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's everyone. you could be a casual and you immediately know how to do his things. Yeah. Plus Elizabeth added, you know, to his legacy as well. Like, they're, them together as an on-screen couple was so impactful. So, but Brett is the man, you know.

And then in terms of their other guy, like, I love Austin. I mean, I think, you know, when push comes to shove, sometimes if I'm forced to choose, like, who's just like the face of it all, um, especially given everything that's happened in people's personal lives that have made legacies complicated. I think Austin is like a a great sort of face for the entire thing that is pro wrestling.

But if you weren't watching at that time, man, it's hard to explain how impactful Austin was in 98, 99. Well, but the thing is, that's the thing. You didn't even have to be watching. That's true. So like, even as someone who was out at that time, I knew 316.

Yeah. I saw the shirts everywhere. Sure. I knew the beer thing. It was everywhere. I mean, and I'm a huge Tyson guy. So you know, the Tyson thing. So just like I said with Savage,

Austin was able to cross over in this way that is just on a different level. And of course, Rocky is in that conversation as well. But if Rock doesn't have the film career, do we look at Rock's crossing over from wrestling as big as we do Austin? And I'm asking, I don't, that's not rhetorical. I don't know the answer.

Well, look, if Rock doesn't cross over to film, I think Rock stays in WWE. just continues to win championships. He won 10 in four and a half years. Ten world championships or nine, nine world championships in four and a half years and then won one later. So like I think that he has a,

would have a massive impact. He'd be a 20 plus time champion if he stayed in WWE. It's a really great point. And obviously the it doesn't matter was a big deal, you know. I love that. And finally.

And millions. Like he had turned a lot of things sideways. A lot of things went. Yeah, they went places. But yeah, so like Austin and Rock are just right there too. But, man, the truth is, I love, we could spend the next three hours with you naming other greats and me making a case for like why they're in the conversation. I just, I love so many of them. The United States Soccer Federation present the U.S. soccer podcast.

My name is David Goss, and I'm joined by my co-host, Megan Clevenberg. And now we're giving people an inside look at the world. World Cup. Times ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really take their claimant, and they want to be on that World Cup roster. There's no doubt about it.

Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer Podcast, presented by Henko. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. When do you think was the moment that wrestling started having the resurgence that it's having now? Because it is as hot now as arguably it's ever been. man um like the actual moment when we could say it's happening right like there was a moment definitely in the 2010s when it's like uh you know wrestling it's hit or miss right now it's a lot more hits

than misses you know it's it's hard to pinpoint the actual moment or maybe it's a storyline you know it feels like the pinnacle of it all hitting it was a kind of a kind of combination of Roman and Paul coming together and the bloodline being born as a storyline. I'm going to give it a combo of three things. That story,

the return of Cody Rhodes and Nick Con truly taking the place that he's taken. Because you can't remove, as company shill as that sounds, like you can't remove the business moves

that have now been made over the last several years in talking about why this thing is the hottest it's ever been. Because we're here right now in Indy and I get to work for ESPN here and WWE this weekend. That is Nickom. I don't think there's another person to point to as to why. You have the biggest sports broadcast agent in the world coming over to WWE with every relationship that he's already built.

So all of those things factor in. Yeah. But the Roman becoming Roman rains. Because that's the truth. The truth is the second that camera panned over and we saw Paul Heyman, and this is what makes wrestling the greatest art form on planet Earth is that the second that camera pans over to Paul Heyman, all of a sudden, Roman reigns is different. And we all know what that camera pan meant.

We all went, oh, well, that's different. I was sitting in my hotel room in. in, I think, Tampa, because there was an Orlando period and in Tampa period during COVID. And at one point, there were shows on back-to-back weekend, so I just stayed in Florida for the week.

And I think it was that one. And then Friday, so we had a, we had a pay-per-view on Sunday, and it was the Friday before. And we recorded, my schedule had been tough, so we recorded cheap heat at night. We were like, let's record an episode at night. By the way, subscribe to Chee Pete, wherever you find podcast.

We're live every Friday, 12 to 2 on Sirius XM, Channel 156 Pro Resonation 24-7, but the podcast, wherever you find out. What a plug. This is like the best wrestling audience I'll ever have. I'll go the whole time and not mention Chee Pete, which we do do a very different kind of wrestling podcast. We are not as much break it down, you know, moment by moment as we are. Wrestling is the backdrop of everything that we talk about.

And then we also get into the matches. But I was doing the show with DIP and Stack Eye Greg, and DIP wasn't watching, I think. I think just me and Greg were watching the show live. And I don't normally watch a show live during a podcast. But when the camera, it was a regular episode of SmackDown. You know, when things are happening, whatever. Yeah.

And they're showing a thing. And I don't even think I hear what's being said. I just know there's a little promo with Roman backstage. On backstage, okay, cool. And the camera pans over. and my head exploded. I'm like, oh, how did we never think of this as a, and that's what's so brilliant about the art

and so brilliant about Paul. Like he does things that make you go, I should have thought of that, but I never would have. And then, of course, Roman just runs with that ball and becomes the man. And Roman has just,

me and Jackie Redmond were talking last week, we walked by him. We finished the countdown show, and sometimes when we finished them, we're like at the top of the stage, so then we walk through Gorilla to leave. And as we walked out in Paris, Roman was coming up the ramp,

already being filmed for whatever thing he's being filmed for. The great Joey Maloney is running with a camera like in front of him, as he often is, and Roman's walking up the thing. So Roman's in the mode already, right? So when that happens, it means get the fuck out of the way. So we do.

And we both looked at each other after Roman walked past us and are like the aura of that fucking guy. Like when you see it, behind the scenes, and he's a, he's on a different level. Like it really is God mode. It is something different about Rome. Honestly, and again, this is what I love about wrestling. how people can like elevate at these random moments for you and you don't know why.

Roman in that moment for me made me go, oh, he's even greater than I realized. This is so different. Seth, Seth's last turn, uh, the surprise faking us all out with the injury. The ruse of the century. The ruse of the century level, leveled him up again. Sure. But, and then Cody. And then Cody's, you can't forget, like the Cody piece of this was so much bigger than I guessed it would I never, I followed Cody's complete journey to AW. In fact, that was like the one AW interview I ever did was a Cody, you know, a long form Cody conversation during that time. I was hip to all of it.

I respectfully, I thought it would be cool when he came back. I really thought it would be cool. But I did not, I was not able to calculate what it would be. So when you factor those three things in, then Nick Conn of it all, Roman becoming Roman, Cody coming back, that all peaks. And it's a long-ass answer.

That is how we got here, I think. Yeah. I think the wrestling in 2020 was tough to watch. And I get it. You know, the world had shut down. But watching wrestling with no audience was this reminder of like, things are not right in the world right now.

Coming out of that was, I think there was this hunger to like be around people again and like connect with people. And that was WrestleMania 38 having a full audience of like, okay. Yeah, that's an interesting point too. But I could push back on that and say with it, what you're saying about the reminders of it being a rough time,

it also, I think, brought back some people who had nothing else to watch. Well, look, on a Monday night at 8 o'clock, I knew exactly where you were in March 2020 and April 2020. You were sitting on your couch because you couldn't go anywhere else. That's not professional. Dipperstein, how dare you. I'm with Chris Van Vleafel. So I get it.

Yeah. And I think that probably brought some people back. Yeah. I really do. I think there are some people who probably at that point were like, let me check this out. Oh, Barack Lesnar's there? Oh, who was this Rumb and Raines guy? Yeah.

So it's been a slow trickling to getting to here. But like also, you know, I was, I was a loud and proud fan when it was not. cute. Same. Like it was in in, oh, you still watch wrestling? Oh, it was yeah, it was not cute. And then, and then I, I started meeting my sort of compadres in hip hop who were of the same ilk. Um, and the, you know, the Wala's and, and smoked as a, these are like the first kind of wrestling friends I found in that era of like 10, 11. And like, it started getting started getting cool again. Like, Wale doesn't get his credit either. You know, Wale really came around a lot at a time when not a ton of cool celebrities were coming around.

Yeah. You know? And he deserves his flowers for that. Just like today, West Side Gun is just such an avid proponent of everything related to the culture of wrestling. Yeah. Those characters in culture matter. And I take a lot of pride and a lot of them come. from hip hop. And I take a lot of pride in the role that I played in it early on too. Because

in hip hop, people weren't being loud and proud about the wrestling fandom. And I started going really hard wearing the vintage shirts all the time. Like, it's cool to me. I don't give a fuck what you say. It is cool to be into wrestling. And as we know, the fact of the matter is in America, what is cool, that tone is set by black culture. Always has been, always will be. When you look at everything from style, fashion, music, whatever it is. Essentially, black culture drives it. And so I think that's true in the coolness of wrestling again as well. And if you really look around, one of the things I'm so proud of about wrestling, trigger

warning, excitement about diversity talk, are diverse fan base. It's amazing. Like, how many places do you go in the world where the fans truly look as diverse as they do at WW events and where people are loud and now proud about their interest in it. I think it's super cool. Like I always tell people, WW. Shows, respectfully, I love going to sports events. They're a great time.

But it pales to WW. Yeah. The events are more fun. Yeah. And it's start to finish. That's the great thing. Like start to finish. It's exciting.

From the moment you get there. Yes. But Chris, here's the part you can't sleep on. I know you must experience. There's a lot walking around. The friendliness. Yeah. Like, I was talking to some of my ESPN colleagues

who were just doing UFC stuff. And I'm like, I love UFC. I love boxing. You guys are gonna have a different experience at these shows. These are family events. Like, and now as someone who has young kids like you, yeah, I really appreciate

that I would bring my baby daughter to a show and not work. Yeah, she came to clash in Paris. How'd go? It was the best. I brought my daughter, Logan, to Monday Night Raw on Anaheim when she was nine months old, and we lasted for about two minutes. The explosions, the show started off with a match between Cody Rhodes, lots of pyro, and Drew McIntyre.

Lots of pyro. Let me, let me explain how I rigged the system. It was terrible. What a bad idea. By the way, this is just bad planning. Let's talk about it. It was not good. So let me take you.

My wife's like, what are we doing? No, no, no. I'll meet you in the concourse. So I went to Paris with my wife. and daughter for the week. And then the day of the show, they went and did their thing all day. They went to the Eiffel Tower, blah, blah, blah, and we were staying right next to the building. So I was already, it was mid-show. They came over mid-show. And then I brought her out into the actual bowl after entrances, no pyro, no music. Okay, this is very thought out. And I brought her to

like a riser. And we just watched Sina. and Logan and left before the match ended. So I avoided all of the loud stuff. I should have talked to you before doing this. We were so excited. My daughter was wearing a macho man Randy Savage t-shirt. We're so excited. No, the whole thing is tough.

I don't know what age that gets good. I'm sure people could tell us like by three. We even had the headphones on. Even with the headphones. The ear protectors. But how about this? Best part of that for me was. So we walked, we left.

gave her 15 minutes. I have video of it. I have a super dad. I have this like handy cam kind of thing, this Canon camera that's like a true dad cam. No way. It's awesome. Yeah.

And at first everyone's like, why do you have that? You have a phone. And I'm like, because this isn't the same. Yeah. I don't want a collection of 10 second clips that I have to search for.

I want videos on a drive that I then save as these are our family videos. You know what I mean? I want to like make it. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug. Yeah. I want to have this stuff. So I'm,

so my wife. is filming and my wife's a photographer so by the way her footage of the logan scene a match i was like this looks like tv it's amazing and then i'm like let's go so we walk backstage and as we're as we walk through the door roman is walking by and roman sees my daughter and so like i have like my wife is still filming so i have this moment now forever that i won't share because i'm not a clown i don't share backstage stuff, but this moment of Roman meeting my daughter when she's like nine months old. Oh, wow. And when she becomes women's world champion, think about what it'll mean to have had that moment

with Roman. My daughter has already met so many people. She has no idea who she has met. But like, it's, I'm jealous of her already. I'm like, you don't, Becky Lynch is freaking out over you. She's marking out for you. Do you not understand how cool this is? Since you love wrestling, since you love hip hop,

what do you think of John Cena's rap album? I'm going to tell you, I'm going to admit something right now. I have never heard it beyond the like few songs that I know. Basic Thuganomics, time is now, a bad man with Freddie Fox. What are you waiting for? Got Spotify.

I'll tell you this, though. He's not bad. Like, Sina, Sina was not a bad rapper. He, he, his theme song is freaking iconic, um, obviously. He has some great lines in both of his theme songs. Basic Thuggonomics and the time is now, he has so many great lines like, uh, taking over Earth and still kicking in your anus. What?

How good is that? It's, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, for, that's what I'm saying, for a pro wrestler who's rapping second, that's a high level bar right there. That's Uranus he's talking about. How often do you hear a Uranus bar? The planet. The planet. You get it?

Yeah. It's two things. No, he's John, John was dope. And what I loved about what John did and what made me like a fan at that time was he, he brought along Freddie Fox. Like, Freddie Fox, 98% of the people watching this don't know who Freddie Fox is. I don't know who Freddie Fox is. I wasn't going to say it, but I knew that.

Yeah. Freddie Fox, aka Bumpy Knuckles, is an incredible, is the, epitome of an underground badass rapper. And when I say badass, by the way, I mean a legit real life. There's not one person who's ever talked slick about Bumpy Nucks in their entire life and still wouldn't to this day.

But also, like, just a total underground legend. And I mean, I think Bumpy gave John credibility and helped him. And John got to bring Bumpy Nuckles out on stage at like an episode of Smackdown and like get a guy, who like was a straight up underground rapper put money in his pocket

and got to do dope stuff with him. So I always respected the hell out of that. Whenever I interviewed John over the years, hip hop would always come up. You know, I always respect it. I know he's not as much of a hip hop guy today as he was. At some point, he started listening to country and stuff.

Like this is years ago when we last talked about it. But it always has great respect for the classics. So yeah, I'm gonna listen to it. Before this run is over, you just gave me a great idea for a Patreon episode to Cheepid. Let's listen along. Let's review. Let's go

track by track on this Sina album. Two-face rappers walk away with four Shiner's. How good is that? I mean, listen. Like a broken record, you're missing the point. You've really broken down these lyrics to a fun. I mean, it's just so good. So do you actually listen to it at the time?

No. Like, I'm with you where I've heard the major songs and I know like most of the lyrics to all of them. But like, I just had such a respect for, like you said, This was, wrestling was number one for him, for sure. Recording this hip hop album was number two, and it was still pretty great.

Yeah, no, it was, and by the way, that theme song has just stood the test of time in a way that I- It's iconic. I mean, I still think it should have went away when he was a heel, but I absolutely love the song. Like, think about as much of a heel as he was

with that song. And I know we went Blacktron, but what if we went, No music. No music? But then they... You get nothing. They got to sing John Sina Sucks.

True. Which worked. I know, but John Sina sucks is still a celebration of John Sina. You know? A celebration that he sucks? Yeah, but that's still a thing. Think about it. Anytime someone gets the Sucks chant,

you suck isn't a celebration of Kurt Angle? Well, yeah. You know what I'm saying? So like... It's an endearing chant. If we were going to go all the way with John has lost his boringness. I mean, his excitement has been replaced with boring behavior. don't even give me the song.

But let's not get into the booking John's heel run because that will be the entire conversation. Who do you think is John Cena's final opponent? Man, that's become a tough question. And it's tough because there's no obvious answer. There's a lot of like fantasy booking, but there's no obvious like, well, it needs to be so-and-so because of this story.

Like at this point, I think there's three to five names that still make a lot of sense. Tell me who you think makes sense, and I want to respond. So I think that if you would ask me this question at the start of the year, I would have said, oh, it's Randy Orton. There's so much history there that would make a ton of sense. Then they had what was billed as their last match ever at backlash. I went, okay, I guess it's not that.

And then I was said, oh, CM Punk. A ton of history there. Some have seen his best matches were against CM Punk. They had their last match ever at Night of Champions. Oh, it can't be CM Punk now. Is it going to be an up-and-comer? Is it going to be someone like Brom Bram Breaker, Dominic Mysterio, Gunther? I don't know.

He really hasn't done a lot of work with up-and-coming wrestlers except for Logan Paul in this farewell tour. So I think there's a lot of possibilities. Rock could still be a possibility. There's a ton of story there. They're one-in-one and their matches together. Rock's the reason that he turned heel and that was never really explained. They could bring that all together and tie it up with a nice little bow and give us a story there. There's a lot of things that could make sense.

but I honestly have no clue. Yeah, I think that's what's made this so interesting. And also, we know we were talking about it this week on Cheapete. How do we build to this with the limited dates that he has? Right, because after Russell Paloza, there's only five. And we know that he's going to have Crown Jewel. We know he's going to have Survivor Series. We know he has Raw in Boston and Madison Square Garden, and then he has the final match.

And that's it. Not a lot of build of that final match. Yeah, and between Crown Jewel and Perth. and Survivor Series, you have the two raws there over six weeks to try. So I guess there's enough time to get us there, but then you go, Survivor Series to Saturday's main event. I'm having a thought right now. Okay.

Because you have the time to build between Perth and Survivor Series, because you have those two raws, but then you have nothing between the next two. Yeah. Is it a final two matches against the same person? Maybe. And I've heard people have this theory of like, I think he's not going to retire at the end of the year. And I'm like, there is absolutely no way that that's happening.

Like he is retiring. He's a man of his word, December 13th. That's his last match in WWE. And I keep hearing people say, he'll be a surprise entrant in the Royal Rumble. No. He's going to take this to WrestleMania 42. No, not happening.

I don't sense anything. I'm going to play something for you. I want to ask you a question. Okay. If, because we've talked about all, the people who make sense. Yeah. And a name that just hasn't gotten mentioned very much, and it's super unlikely, and I'm

probably reaching here. But when you think about what they represented at a certain time, the last Saturday's main event happens to be in D.C. If you hear this. Right. I mean. I mean, come on. I don't know.

What a great theme song, too. I love that. Sure, it makes a ton of sense, but I believe Dave Batesda when he says he's retired. Like, he is done, done. And he has made that very clear when he does seem that way. He's done interviews with me. He's like, no, I had that final match at WrestleMania at 35, and that was it. Like, I walked away.

I didn't even tell anybody it was my final match. I think he's done. So I think you're right. And I think he meant that, and I respect that. I personally as a fan, and who cares what we think? It's about what he wants in his life. But I'm selfish and I'm a fan. I'm not satisfied with the other.

I want, I want something. I would love to see Batista one more time. I think there's more, I just think, I just think, there's one more story to be told. He went out on his terms against the opponent he wanted at WrestleMania. I know. Pretty perfect. But let's, let me just remind everyone. And again, it's too late. It's not happening. I know. But like, just don't forget during a time when, like we said, things were a little rough up and down the card. Let's not forget that at the top of the card on Ron Smackdown, the two faces of that company were John Cena and Batista. So since you played a theme song,

I'm going to give you one here. What if? What if it was like, A mystery opponent. Are you going to play Joe Hendry? That'd be a good one. What if it was like a mystery opponent type of thing? Okay. And we heard this on December 13th. Boy.

Now, now, now, now, another great theme song. Another great theme song. That's become a real sing-along, too. I recently realized, by the way, that Jericho's Judas theme song opened the door to the true single song. along. Yes. And I'm so glad you said that because every time I bring this point up, people go, what about fondongo? What about Kurt Angle? I said, yeah, yeah, people were like singing along, but they weren't, this is not a song that, like, not a song with lyrics. Yeah, listen, I, I think

you have to give Jericho's props for that that song was a lot. Absolutely. And then Edge, and then edges became great now, Randy, now a bunch of people have. E. Jay Stiles. Yeah, everyone has, not everybody, Cody. Cody is huge. I love it. I love it. I love when the crowd sings long to entrance themes. Edge. Edge is the, edge should be the guy. I mean, again, I don't know exactly what his deal is. I know there's been like some speculation that could it be up? Maybe. All I know is that I did an interview with him last May. And he told me that he had about a year and a half left on his contract. But maybe it lines up. Maybe it makes sense. It was also out for a while with a broken leg. So sure, there's injury time added on to this.

So I don't know, maybe he signed a new contract in the meantime. We don't know. And that's what makes this so exciting. And that's one of the great things about pro wrestling is the element of surprise. Yeah, of ones that could happen, right? Because we could live in fantasy land, right? I mean, I would love to hear, da-na-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. But I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't think we're to see John and MJF. Of ones that are remotely possible, Edge would be the one. Um, they, listen, it's Edge or Randy for John's top opponent of all time. Sure. That's, I know people can say rock and there's punk and there's good reason to say them both. But to me, peak John Sina at his true champ baby face, Sina, Sina, Sina, Sina, Sina. Super Sina. Edge was the foil.

And Edge was such a great foil. So that to me, of the ones that are out there that exist, even more than Batista, which it should be edge. But again, yeah, we just have no idea. So then it comes down to, all right, then what is within the realm of possibility? Right. So let's see. We're getting more realistic.

So people, we had thrown out the idea of Carmelo for a while, thought that would be a really fun thing. Carmelo loves Sina from Boston. Now, I would love to see them just get a match in Boston. Same. That would like just, that to me would be such a big moment for Mello who to me has, I mean, I don't know what the ceiling is for Carmelo. It's extremely high. So I'd love to see.

Unbelievable. But for a final match, like, I don't want to see it just be, you know, something random without some story attached to it. I mean, the fact of the matter is, John's run here has been a mixed bag, right? The heel part was incredible when it started. Then we kind of waited for a next step and didn't necessarily get what we wanted. It felt like. And then it ended.

He was saying a lot of things that would have made sense for a 20. 2012, John Cena, like he was mad at the audience. Like, you know, you guys were, you guys were booing me when I was trying real hard. It's like, yeah, but now we love you. Like, what are you talking about? There was a period when everything he said was valid. Yeah, the whole, I couldn't even get a chant without Sina sucks. It was like totally fair.

I just didn't think it made sense in this version. It kind of sounded like the girl you broke up with like five or 10 years ago. Finally, like one day was just like, you know what? And all the things I didn't like about you were this, this, this, and this. And you're like, yeah, but I wish you well. Yeah, we already, didn't we already have coffee and we made up, we're good. No, it's a great point.

And so, and then of course it just ends, right? Yeah. And yeah, he just ended. Like it just, it was one day he's like, no, I love you guys. It was, it was bizarre. I mean, listen, I absolutely adore the man. And he's doing an incredible job. I was not satisfied with that moment.

There's only one way to clean that moment up. That moment can only be cleaned up with the rock. That's the only way that you can make sense of it all would be if Rocky and John one more time. That's all. Otherwise, I just don't see what we're going to do because I agree with you. It could have been Randy, but we did that. I didn't want Randy to just be a one-off in St. Louis. I wanted more.

That's that there's more meat on the bone there. There is. But I don't think they're doing it. No. So it's really hard to say where you go. But let me say this, though. even though I was dissatisfied with some of those things, we landed, somehow we still landed where we needed to land,

which is the matches are now great. And there was a period when people were sick of the John's moves. They'd already seen it all. Okay, we know what a scene a match looks like. First of all, he's putting on the greatest matches he's ever had. Yeah. And second of all, because we had that period where he was having those like heel clunker matches,

every one of these matches feels awesome. And all of that led up to his entrance at SummerSlam meaning so much. And then that match with Cody, in my opinion, is his best match. But here's the question I've had about that match. And I agree with you. And when the Tron changed, it was electric for sure. Yeah. But they didn't have to have the night before.

The Smackdown before. They could have done it all in that match. The turn could have happened right there. I think they preemptively did it so that Cody wouldn't get booed. I think that that's what happened. Then they would have had the reaction that they had at WrestleMania, where, like, Sina's getting cheered even though he's trying to work as a heel. Cody's getting booed, even though he's trying to work as a baby face.

I think they preemptively did it so that we went into SummerSlam with clear lines drawn of like, okay, we get it. It's okay to cheer for John Cena. But let me, let me throw it back at you. Sure. You suffer through that match and some boo-birds come out for Cody, right? John is still full on heel, right? A, his, you know, his style at first in the match is so clunky that people are,

not into it. But then as the match goes on, he starts Sina, he starts Sina ing up a bit, if you will, right? And we start getting piece by piece. Glimsas of Super Sina. Glimses. Yes, there will be some booze for Cody. And in the end, it turns into this war and everyone's cheering for Sina when he wins. And at the end, they have their stare down. and in that moment, John turns back, lifts Cody's, they have their moment together.

Time is now Papy Tron. And they have it together. I think now John is loved again and Cody still ends up being part of the whole thing and gets to soak in cheers too. So I think you'd have to suffer through some booze, but I think you'd still land in a fine place at the end. Listen, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I just think it didn't need to happen with this promo of, like, I changed my mind. I just think we could have found a way to get there in the match. What it all comes down to is when you buy tickets to see John Cena on the card, at this point, on his farewell tour, it's like seeing Jeter in his final season, it's like seeing Kobe in his final season. You just want to cheer for him.

And that's what we're back at now. I've won more for you before we wrap this up. Because you are such a hip-hop aficionado. Who's on your hip-hop Mount Rushmore? Oh, man. It's so fun. This is like the question I get asked in the street. I probably, I guess forever, I'll get asked this in the street.

I prefer, though, as Mount Rushmore. Rather than a top five? Yeah, I really do. The ranking part gets so arbitrary and dumb. So let me ask you a question. Is this my personal Peter's Mount Rushmore or this is the Mount Rushmore? I always think of Mount Rushmore's, these are your personal choices. So you may have like, because you started listening in this era,

maybe those people are more important to you or whatever that happens to be. But I always think it's a personal thing. Maybe you can throw in some people that without this person, then we don't have this error or whatever it happens to be. But it's your list, man. So the one thing I'm debating about is do, because the Mount Rushmore to me is about the foundation. It's about like the different.

I know the real breakdown of the Mount Rushmore is each president stands for something like the history and then the this and the that and then and then and then and in growth and then whatever. So do I start with like a true, true old school like literally Grandmaster Kaz or Curtis Blow like a true early days. If they don't start, maybe nothing ever happens. Like I think you probably can't do that because there's so many greats that have come later, right? So I think then you put position one, Rakim. And you put, Rakim is by no means the first, but he is the one who truly took it to a next level for the first time. And by the way, there are other arguments to be had there and I recognize them.

We could have it with Run DMC or Kane or there are a lot of people there. But I feel comfortable putting Rakim in one seat. And this is the great thing about Mount Rushmore discussion. is if you mention all of the other names as part of the discussion, I think that people watching are listening go, oh, I'm glad he mentioned run DMC, okay. You kind of have to, right? You just forget about them?

What about? I always love the, what about comments. So, so here's what I think is challenging. I think it is so generic to then have, you know, Biggie and Tupac as to see, it feels like lazy. Right. But here's the thing.

So I am more a Biggie person in my heart than a Tupac person, not that we have to choose, but we end up getting posed this all the time. However, when it comes to Mount Rushmore, I believe Pock belongs there more than Biggie, even though to me Biggie was light years better as an artist. But Pock as a cultural icon that transcended everything. I mean, they will sell Tupac merch in Malaysia in 50 years. You know, like he is that kind of, right.

He's Bob Marley. Yeah. Like, he's John Lennon. That's what he represents. It's what he represents. It's so much, so I think you have to have Tupac up there. Okay. Right.

Then, you know, so get, all the Illuminati people can start getting, getting crazy. Jay Z has to be there. I mean, Jay Z, we can have conversations about his albums and whether you think he has enough classic albums or blah. Jay-Z is becoming Babe Ruth. Like, when you think about what hip-hop is to a certain extent, the name Jay-Z, he's kind of like Kleenex, man. Like, it's Jay-Z, bro.

Like, he's, and it's everything. Again, just like Tupac is this cultural impact, the political part, the socioeconomic part, all of that is so Tupac. But Jay-Z, it's, it's A, the rapping, like, don't ever sleep on the rapping. It's iconic, but it's what he's done since then. It's being married to Beyonce. It's the whole package. I'm sorry, you may not like it, but he's there.

And then the fourth one is, like, where do you go? Like, you have these other people that are so important, like, Snoop, you know, who's a national treasure, right? Yeah. And he's a part of two of the greatest albums of all time. Really three, because both chronics and doggy style are just iconic. Then there's Eminem who's just, from a rap standpoint, just absolutely insane. The big pun, who was always my personal favorite, but he's not going to, his career was too short.

He's not going to be there. And then from like a artistically what he's done and then how great he is. and this may be surprising, but, like, I think you just have to pick someone who's straight up about the art. Andre 3000. Like, I don't know if anyone's ever been better at rapping than Andre 3000 when he feels like rapping.

Like, he's just like that. When he feels like rapping, he does things that you're like, and I think him and Eminem are special in that way. They both make you do things. You're like, how? Yeah. But Andre does it with this sort of, like Eminem, you know he's doing it like.

He's working at it. Like, Eminem grinded to do this. It just pours out of Andre 3000. It's like Randy Orton and John Cena. Like, and Randy's a better natural in-ringed talent, obviously. But like John became an all-time great by just grinding and working and learning. I'm not saying Randy didn't work hard. Yeah.

But Randy's a natural. Sure. That's, I mean, from the second, the guy showed up for a second. You're like, well, that guy can wrestle. Like I said about Brett Hart, that guy, Randy Orton can just wrestle. Yeah. Three stacks is like. it's not even like he had to work for it, though I know he did, but it just comes out of him.

So I know that's a crazy, I will change my mind on that a thousand times, but in this moment that you're asking. On this day, on this day, I'll go Rakim for the early legend who changed the game so much. I'll go Tupac for the worldwide cultural impact. Jay-Z for the just absolute brilliant career, business savvy, association with the culture, things that he's done. and then just for pure artistry and elevating things, I'll throw on to three stacks.

All right. I'll change my mind. That's where I am today. Next time I have you on, maybe you'll have four different answers. Listen, I look forward to that. Me too. Thank you for making this happen today.

Dude, thank you. This is very cool. Keep to it, by the way. You're the man, dude. This platform is special and important. Appreciate it. You're very kind. Thank you.

Thanks, dude. I will ask you the question. I ask everybody at the end, because gratitude means so much to me. It's a cornerstone of my life. What are three things you're grateful for right now? Oh, let's just, that's not overcomplicate things. I'm grateful for my daughter, obviously.

I wanted to be a dad for so long. Isn't it amazing how much becoming a father just changes you in that exact moment? Yeah, it's insane. And you and I are both, you know, I'm slightly older than you, but we're both in the old dad, old dad club. Yeah, I became a dad 10 days after my 40th birthday. I don't understand. Right around 40, right?

Yeah. So, yeah, I was 45 when my daughter was born. So I think for those of us who, like, waited longer, it hits even different. Yeah. So super. Maya's the coolest kid. She's the, yeah, I can cry thinking about her. And in that note, I know this is wildly generic, but I'm so grateful for my wife.

Like, I met my wife in the pandemic, like, through a random DM, you know. And she just turned out to be. the just greatest human, you know? And, you know, one of the funniest things that happened within the first 36 hours that we met, she was like, we decided to smoke a joint. And I'm not a big partaker in my old age.

I get too paranoid. I get crazy, right? But I did. I want to seem cool. So I take a hit. We're hanging out. And I start to feel paranoid as I knew I would. And then she starts randomly being.

like we started music came up and she somehow mentions limb biscuit this girl likes limbiscuit i gotta get out of here what what the hell am i doing here i i can't be with someone who likes limbiscuit i'm a music snob there's no chance no i mean i like in together now my way as much as the next guy but no no and so it turned into this very funny thing where she was like please just listen to one song we had a whole thing turned out though i didn't realize in that moment that the reason she even liked limbiscuit is because she also liked the attitude era of WWF. The greatest buildup ever. Wrestlingania 17.

Of course, the greatest promo of all the ever. Absolutely. So anyways, that was just one fun story about Natalie, but she's a brilliant artist and best mom and so supportive of my insane life that I lead. And I'll throw in, honestly, that at this moment,

I still have my parents in my life. You know, and I've seen a lot of loss. over the last 10 years. Like there's just been an immense amount of loss, friends, family, you know, colleagues. And that's one of the unfortunate parts of getting old. Obviously, everyone goes through it, but it's been like, wow and jarring.

And so to have my parents, and my dog, by the way, I have a dog who's 15 and still rocking. What's your dog's name? Bear. I have a dog that's 15 as well, Luna. Really? Looney.

By the way, too, very, You and I with two very basic dog names. There are lunas and bears everywhere. But yeah, my 15-year-old boy is still, he's still, like, people seem like, he's 15. I'm like, I know, I'm just so, I, no, and I literally, that's when I literally am, like, grateful to God that he's still so good, because we lost our boy, Rocky, our 15-year-old Maltese. We lost six months ago.

And so, like, to at least still have bear around has been, like, such a gift. Yeah, but my parents, you know, my parents in the little late 70s, and I was so worried when I hadn't had a kid yet that they wouldn't meet my children. Like that was the biggest thing that sort of hung over. I was like, oh, I need them to meet my children. So to get to have these moments where, like, they're visiting and I go, like, look in the room and my mom's just like looking in the crib. Just like, it's amazing.

So, obviously, a lot of family in there. But yeah, I would say that's what I'm most grateful for. Well, I look forward to having you back on again next time. And we'll see if our predictions about John Cena's final match or right or not. Yeah. And by the way, we didn't even get to. Now, fortunately, you need to find. a wrestling guest every week forever.

So I know we'll get another conversation. Yes. Next time I'm in New York. We didn't even, I didn't even get to the 24-7 story. That's right. We didn't even talk about my championship. And we talked for over an hour.

We'll get to it. And you're late for whatever. I know, and I got to go. Thank you, dude. It was awesome. Thank you. Appreciate it. The Hammer Alley podcast,

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