Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Raven's Most Hardcore ECW Moments, Early Onset Parkinson's, WrestleMania, TNA, WWE Run

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Raven (@theraveneffect) is a professional wrestler best known for his time in ECW and WWE. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet at the DDPY Performance Center in Atlanta, GA to discuss his new documentary "Nevermore: The Raven Effect" and why he wanted it to be warts and all, what was the hardest topic to cover in the documentary, an update on his current health and his early onset Parkinson's Disease, the inspiration behind his iconic look, the chair shot heard around the world, almost knocking out the power at WrestleMania 17, and more! Visit Raven's website at: https://theraveneffect.com Please support our sponsors! PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/cvv AMERICAN FINANCING: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.196% for well qualified borrowers. Call 866-721-3300 for details about credit costs and terms or visit https://Americanfinancing.net/Chris SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV2025 Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It was so fun watching you interact with Dallas and Buff Bagwell here just a minute ago. It's like a reunion, I guess. Yeah, you know, it's like I don't talk to the boys much when I'm at home. Like, I'm not a phone person. I don't talk to pretty much anybody in the phone. But whenever I see anybody, it's like you just saw him yesterday. You know, that's kind of friendships we have. you build such a bond with certain people

you know like me and Paige got quite a, you know, such a history together and same with me and Buff. And yeah, it's great. Every time I see him, you know, it's like I just saw him yesterday and I'm going to see him tomorrow and, you know, if you have the same vibe, you know what I mean? It's like the brotherhood of wrestling. Yeah, it really is.

I mean, we go through so much physically between the matches, the psychological games, the bosses play. The flights, you know, crammed in and every. You know, like a typical day is you're up at 6 a.m. to catch a 7 or 8 a.m. flight, you know, and then you got to catch a flight. And after the flight, you got to go to the gym. And then you got to drive to the arena,

which sometimes can be three hours. Sometimes it's, you know, five minutes, you know, but sometimes it's three hours. And then you got to get, then you got to get ready to wrestle and then you got to, you know, change all your clothes again. And then take a shower. So, you know, two showers a day, you know, one after the match, one before, from after working out. You know, it's a 12, 14 hour day.

And then, of course, you want to go out and get some afterwards. You want to unwind after the match. So after the match, you wait until the show's over. And then, you know, if you're riding with somebody who's on the last, you got to wait until the end of the car. and then you go out and then you drink until one, two, three in the morning and end up again at 6 a.m. What's so interesting about your chosen profession is fans only see the 10-minute match, 15-minute match on TV. They don't see the other, the rest of the week and everything else that goes into it. Yeah, and it's a 6-7 and 6-7. Well, now I think it's down to four days a week.

I don't know how many days a week WWE does. AEW, I think does one night a week, but, but the, I don't know, I don't follow it anymore. At all? No, not at all. You don't watch any wrestling? No, I stopped watching. I got so disenchanted when they did the alliance angle back in 2002, maybe. You haven't been watching since then?

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I stopped watching. I've, you know, I saw like some pay-per-views where I was a guest at a party, you know, like, you know, they pay you to come in and sit around and watch the pay-per-view with everybody. done some of those, so I've seen some stuff, but not a lot. You know, I mean, I really, I just, a couple of reasons. One, I got so disenchanted. And then I just never started watching again because I've already seen, done everything, you know, that there is. And I'm a complete it,

so I'd have to watch everything. And, you know, there's no time to read books or to watch other TV shows, you know, or to, you know, with my sleep disorder, you know, I need to take a nap every day and, you know, I get a need nine, ten hours sleep. And so, you know, so that cuts into my day and then, you know, watching wrestling would just take up way too much time. But you already, I'm already addicted enough to the UFC and MMA, you know, to get addicted to back to wrestling again would be too much. But you were wrestling long after the invasion angle. Yeah, yeah, I still watched it. I still, I still, I mean, I still did it.

You know, I still watched it at the arenas when I was at a show. I'd still watch my buddies wrestle and, you know, or people that would ask me to watch their match. You know, the younger guys would ask me to watch their match on indie shows. But yeah, I didn't come out of the ring until COVID, I guess. What's the sleep disorder that you have? They don't have a name for it, but I know another person that has the same thing. It's the basics that just is, is you wake up so many times in the night that when you finally, that when you wake up in the morning, you're still exhausted.

And so I wake up, you know, I wear a CPAP or I have to wear a special CPAP that makes me breathe the air. I mean, this is it all, you know, I'm sure from years of drug abuse and chair shots to the head and stuff like that and abusing my body, I'm sure this is the price I'm paying. But, you know, so. I wake, so I go to bed. I can fall asleep, no problem.

But then I saw waking up after about two hours, I'll wake up. And I'll wake up like every 20 minutes for the next six, eight hours, you know. And then so when I wake up for good, I'm exhausted. So I'm waking up like 15, 20 times a night. How would you say your overall health is now? It's good. You know, I mean, I got the early onset Parkinson's, you know, which I still don't, I'm of the mind to say.

that I don't have it, you know, but it's why I have the tremor, and that's what they think it is. And there's no 100% proof tests. So the tests they give to prove it is only proves it like 90% and there's a lot of false positives and negatives in it. And so there's no reason, because he said he wouldn't treat me any other, you know, he would treat me the same way, which is nothing as of now, because nothing's bad enough, although my tremor is really bad right now. You're not on any sort of medication. No.

No. So there's no reason that, so I'm just going to declare it that I'm not, that I don't have early onset Parkinson's and that, and convince myself that I don't, because I've had it for like eight, 10 years, no, for like, yeah, for about eight, 10 years. And all this is a tremor so far. What causes this? They don't know. You know, it's, I haven't put enough study into, into the diagnosis.

You know, usually I figure out, you know, read the doctor. notes and all that, but I just, I'd rather just play along that I'm, that I, you know, that I, did I say I have it, but I'm convinced I don't, you know, that it's just a tremor. And I figure mind over matter, you know, hopefully it'll stay just a tremor as it has all these years. Is this at all tied into the way you wrestled? Or is this something completely different? What do you mean? You took a lot of chair shots. Yeah, as I'm saying, I think it's chair shots to the head. it's like Ali swore that he didn't have Parkinson's

and it was just all the shots he took to the head. You know, that's what I like to think it is. You know, that and all the drugs. Yeah. You know, I'm not, I used to be proud of my drug abuse, my ability to handle drugs. Now I'm just embarrassed by it. Are you sober now?

I've been sober for years. You have a date on your left arm. What's that? That's the day I got married. Oh, amazing. She's my, well, we got divorced, but we stayed best. We got divorced to save the friendship.

My life is so strange. We got divorced to save the friendship. And so we end up staying getting closer than ever. We bought a house together. We live together. We're not, we love each other to death, but we're not in love. And it works out better for both of us. Is this the partner that we see in the Nevermore documentary?

Yeah, she's my life partner. Boy, there's a heartbreaking moment where she says the scariest thing is not knowing if you're going to wake up in the morning. Yeah, she never told me that. She never, I guess she didn't want to, you know, burden me with that. But when I saw it, I was like, really? You feel that way? She's like, yeah, I'm like, I'm so sorry. Do you feel that way?

No. No. You feel like, like you're good? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good until I'm 80. And then what happens? I don't know. Here's the thing.

I've always planned to live to 80. And because I figure after that, you're just too broken down. But, you know, see how my finances is if they stay solid, you know, then maybe I'll tack on a couple of years. But as it is, I'm shooting for 80 and that's, you know, that's a rough estimate. That's only 20 more years. Yeah, that's a... You're three quarters done if you're only going to make it until 80.

Yeah, but, you know, well, who knows? But, I mean, right now, like, I don't want to be old. and like where I'm just old age ain't for pussies. You got to be tough to be an old person. You know, you get so much, you know, ailments and frailties, you know. And besides, 20 years is a long fucking time.

It really is. A lot can happen in that time, though. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm leaving myself open for a living longer, but I plan, I've always thought that 80 seemed about right. You know, I mean,

you know, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying I have any, any I don't have any way of confirming that I'll live to that, you know, or to make myself live to that. I'm just, I put it out there as an estimate, you know, and hopefully that'll work itself out.

You ran pretty hard for many years. Yeah, really hard. What do you think has been the price you had to pay to be Raven? Um, the price I had to pay. It's all this. You know, somebody,

somebody wrote in a, in a letter, in a email, in a text to me, or not a text, and Twitter, no message. I don't really follow Twitter much, although I've been following it since the documentary came out because, you know, I want to see what the response is to it. Other than that, I think social media is mostly the worst thing that ever happened to society. It's horrible. You know, all it does is make people miss out, feel like they're missing out on other things. It's the FOMO.

I mean, I have FOMO really bad, you know, so I understand, I can't imagine, I have the life I have. So I can't imagine a, you know, a 12-year-old fat kid, you know, or a nine-year-old ugly girl, you know, the FOMO they must feel, you know. What did this person write on Twitter? Oh, they wrote Raven. Wait, I don't know anything. Make sure I get it right. Never alone, always lonely. Huh.

It's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, it's not cool. It's pretty insightful. Yeah. You know, it's a pretty insightful, you know, phrase. But never alone, always lonely. And that was always me, too. I always had to have a group of people around me. And even then, I was always, you know, deep down, I was always lonely anyway. I mean, it really struck to the core. I mean, he really nailed it. I was really touched by the documentary.

Thank you. And you showed everything, right? Yeah, of course. Like, was there anything you were afraid to show? No, no. I didn't, I always wanted to write a book because I thought my story was interesting and it could help people. And then I... Still can. Yeah, I'm too lazy to write a book. You know how much work goes into a book?

I've heard, yeah. Because you've got to edit everything. Diamond Dallas Page could help you. He's written like three, four. I'm a perfectionist, though, and I'd have to, I'd be so, I'd be rereading it and rereading it and rereading it, editing to the point of, you know, where I wouldn't, like, I don't see how to directors when they make movies, how they, like, their, their view must be, you must get so jaded when you're, when you're, when you're editing down and you're going through something and

you're like, I got to tighten this up. Should I tighten it up? Should I not? And, you know, you look at it, your perspective must, must be so hard to keep because you're looking at it over and over and over again. Like, how do you find the, you know, like, if you're looking, doing a funny bit and you think, oh, this is funny like this. It could be funnier like that. It could be funnier like that. What about this? Now it's not funny at all. Wait, where am I? You know, like, and that's how I'd be with a book, you know.

And so the director came along and heard me on Steve Austin's podcast and said, and said, he goes, he heard my, heard me on a podcast and thought I was really fascinating, his words, but I'll agree. Just kidding. And, um, he goes, uh, he wanted to write a do a documentary and I said, I'll do it, but as long as it works and all, you know.

Because I wanted to tell my story as the truth, not just a rah-rah, you know, not just a happy-go-lucky piece and not just yay raving, because that's not what I'm about, you know. The United States Soccer Federation present the U.S. soccer podcast. My name is David Goss,

and I'm joined by my co-host, Megan Klinberg. And now we're giving people an inside look at the World Cup. Times ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really take their claim, and they want to be on that World Cup roster. There's no doubt about it.

Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer Podcast, presented by Henko. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've self-described yourself in this interview already as a completionist and a perfectionist. Do you think that that helped you or hurt you in your wrestling career? Yes. Both.

A perfectionist when it came to matches, promos, everything. Yeah. To the point, like, I would exhaust people, you know, it's exhausting listening to someone, you know, be so opinionated, bossy, you know. You're such an interesting career because you're in the ring, then you're taking out of it and you're, you know, put into a backstage role and you're put into a managerial role. Did you feel like at that point in time, like that dream of being a wrestler had been

taken away? Yeah, I felt like, you know, I felt like I got to find a way. I knew I'd get it back to wrestling somehow, some way, but I was afraid that this might be the end too, you know, because I was, he made me a producer, I mean, a manager first. And then because he heard when he brought me, Lawler took some time off. and he brought me in to commentate with him because of my managerial, you know, promos, and Vince did.

And then Vince, and Vince saw my commentary, and he heard my commentary and he saw that I came prepared. I had notes. I had little bits I wanted to do with them, you know, and stuff. And he thought I'd make a good producer. And then, so they made me an associate producer Monday Night Raw, and they were grooming me for the,

And then they also have to be right in format the, um, the B shows, the, the four, the magazine shows like Mania and All-American. And then from there, he decided they wanted, who's grooming and groomy for the booking, be a booker with Pat and Bruce, which didn't rub them too well. And you're how old at this time? Uh, 94, so, um, 30. Okay. Was it 94?

Yeah, something like that. It was 28 to 30, somewhere in there. And they never liked me anyway. So this just made them like me less. And, yeah. So, and then Vince took me off TV because, you know, as a manager, because he said that the character didn't, there was a disconnect between me and the character,

which I always knew, Shane McMahon should have been Johnny Polo, you know. I'm not, my vocal pattern is in Greenwich, you know, Connecticut. It's, you know, it's Philadelphia. I see Wooder and gears. You know, it doesn't sound anything like, you know, like a rich, spoiled of rich kid from, you know, Connecticut would sound, you know. Also, it just, you know, it wasn't me. They put me in suits and stuff at the office.

But, you know, then I'd go home and change into my ravenware, which I'd been wearing all along, you know. You and Shane McMahon were pretty tight. We were. And then when I came back, we weren't at all. like I don't know why. Like when you came back into WWE? Yeah, when I came back as Raven, he wasn't,

he never had time to talk to me. So I don't know. But you guys, like, you were thick as thieves for a while, right? Yeah, we were, yeah. Why did that stop? Well, when I moved, you know, I don't keep in touch, as I said before. But, you know, I just, I don't know.

When I got back, he just didn't treat me the same. So how did Raven come about? If you say you were always wearing that stuff, how did you create the character? I was talking to Paige, DDP, and he goes, I was complaining about the fact that, you know, that nobody was hiring chicken shit heels,

you know what I mean? That I couldn't get a, you know, that I couldn't get a job with somebody, you know, with another company, I'd have to, we're trying to figure out what to do with my career because I didn't want to stay as a, they took me off managing. And so I wasn't on TV. And so I was behind the scenes, like as a producer, like we said. And so we were talking.

And he said, you know, I saw that movie Point Break with the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And you, you know, you're tattooed, got a long hair. And this is when people had mullets. And I was already grown my mullet out because mullets were out of style. But the wrestling business, they still had. mullets because they live in a bubble. They do. Wrestlers live in a bubble totally.

And I mean, you know, like Sean Michaels had a mullet for 20 years after they were out of style. That's true. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying anything negative about it. I'm saying to, you know, factually. Mullets are back now. Sort of. But not really.

Anyway, so what, uh, who was I? So point break? Oh, yeah, so point break. So he said, so, you know, so I wore Doc Martins, which I never. which really are not very comfortable shoes, at least not the pair I had. And I wore ripped up jeans and a T-shirt. And Paige said, you like, you know, you ought to do something like that. Because but you got to be a badass, you know, you got to be a tough guy because

nobody's buying chicken shit heels. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm good at it. He goes, yeah, but if nobody's buying it, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, you're right. You know, and I was an ex-Marine, so, you know, U.S. Marines. So, you know, I can be a tough guy. You know, and at home I was considered a tough guy, you know, just in the wrestling business with Steiner's and Haku and, you know, I'm not, it's, it's hard to say you're a tough guy,

you know, you're going to be a tough guy, road warriors, you know, with all these guys that are legitimate badasses, you know, I may be a local badass at home and, you know, in West Palm Beach, but, you know, it's nothing compared to these guys, you know what I mean? You know, I bounced for years, you know, you know, I bounced for years, you know, know, and stuff like that. And, yeah, so I figured, all right, I'll be a tough guy then, you know, I'll just, that's fine. And then I started to think, you know, how do I, and so Paige had pointed me in the right direction. And without a page is direct, without Page doing that, I never would have came up with it.

So he deserves all the credit in the world for that. But then I, and then he also helped me refine my promos. so Page deserves a lot of credit, but basically I came up with Raven on my, basically myself, you know, Pauley had some input. Everybody had, you know, people always have a little bit of input here and there. But Paige put me in the right direction, which I'm forever grateful for. And he also got me my job with ECW too.

How'd you come up with the name Raven? I was watching The Crow for inspiration in the case. character's name was Eric Draven. I go, Draven, Raven, Raven, quote the Raven, never more. All right, I got a name and a catchphrase, boom. Now I need an outfit. And then I put the outfit together in like two minutes because it wasn't hard to figure out, you know. And then I came up with the idea of the concert t-shirt, because I was, I'm a big believer in ring jackets. You got to have a bunch of ring jackets, because to be a star, you got to look like a star. But Raven's character wouldn't care about looking like a star. He was going to, I had to get an

anti-star look that still was a star character that made me look like a star. And so, um, so I figured it with the concert shirts, I'd have a different shirt every day, so every match. So I could have a variety without having to change my jacket, you know. And so that's, that's, and plus I had no chest, but as a bodybuilder, you know, I always wanted to be a bodybuilder, but I never had the genetics for it. And so I wore, so I had a thick waist, no abs, flat chest, and but I had big arms and shoulders, you know, at the time, you know, until injuries took their toll, but that's a long story. But, yeah, so, so I figured I wore a sleeve it's a concert t-shirt, sleeves cut off,

and show off the arms, you want to accentuate your strengths and hide your weaknesses. And I hit my weaknesses. And another weird thing about that is, is I had really good legs, like really good thighs, but I had such a thick waist

that it took away from it. But my thighs were really good, but for the look, I needed to cover them because I would have wore a short shorts. I'd look like, you know, like Stevie Richards. Right. So sometimes you have to pick one or the other, you know what I mean? So, you know, but it's such a, it's such a unique thing

trying to figure out the, trying to get the most out of everything you can with the least amount of effort, you know? No one cut a promo like you in the 90s. Thank you. Thank you. Where did that come from? Just inside. I just, I would, I would, what I would do is I would, I would see stuff. I'd find a line like, Like the Goo Goo Dolls had a line, scars are souvenirs you never lose, the past is never far. And so I said, Scars are... What a song, name. That song's so good. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

And what a line, scars are souvenirs, you never lose. Yeah. And so I took that and I made a promo around it, you know, so I would take lines. And the best part is if you're pilfering lines from songs, if somebody recognizes it, instead of saying, hey, you're plagiarized, and they go, I know that song. That's from that song that I like. And if they don't recognize it, then you just credit it for it. So we're excited either way.

So you were drawing inspiration. I mean, your look obviously drew inspiration from grunge. You're also drawing inspiration from music to cut these promos as well. Music, books, interviews of people. I mean, just wherever I found inspiration, anything that sounded cool. You know, like, I don't know where I got this, but I used it for years on indie shows. It has to go? It goes, hold on.

I don't want to get it right. Sometimes in life we make our own choices. Sometimes the choice is made for us. Sometimes like tonight for you, there is no choice. You know, I thought that was really clever, so I would always end on an indie show. I always end my promos with that and then quote the Raven evermore. What bands were you listening to at that time?

And we're creating the character? Motley, I mean, not Modley, crew. The Sound Garden. I don't know why I confused it, too. Soundgarden, Allison Chains. But I also listened to a lot of, I listened to Black Funk from the 70s, too. You know, that was always one of my favorite.

I find that if you, once you reach 40 years old, 40 to 50, you stop listening to current music and you start listening to the stuff you listen to and you were 10 or 12. Yeah. And so I went back to that, you know, and so I listened to a lot of, you know, the OJs and the spinners. I can relate. I always say this. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. Yeah.

Right. And music is like this, it's like the straight shot of like it takes you back to a place and a time. Exactly. And I feel like your look worked so perfectly that. time because think of all the bands that were like hitting it at that time nirvana was big green day sound garden like you said you were representative of that at the time and it just worked so well in ecw and i feel like that with that look comes an attitude as well yeah was that the attitude you

already had or was that part of the character and well what which care which part of the cat which which attitude which part of the it was almost like you didn't care the raven character yeah well that was that was the whole idea of the character is he didn't, like deep down he didn't care, but he really did care. He cared so much that it hurt so that he would block it out, which was me, you know, which is what I did. Yeah, Raven was me times 100, you know. And, yeah, but unfortunately, like, the character started out, art imitated life,

but then life started to imitate art. And now it's one of the things got really bad. Remember the first, like, scary chair shot you took? Or are they not bad in the moment? They're not bad in the moment. No, they really don't. They don't hurt that much. What?

I mean, they don't. You just, your forehead's the hardest part of your head. And, like, you guys are taking them straight to the head in ECW. Yeah, yeah, but that's the part that doesn't hurt. Right here is the hardest part of your body. Is anybody at that point in time putting their hands up? Yeah, some guys were, but then they'd get chastised by the rest of the locker room. The smartest thing ever, and it's such a great spot,

is Sabu used to take the chair and he'd throw it at you, which not only could you make and make a great clattering sound and make it fly off, but it didn't hurt and it didn't cause damage. We all should have been doing that, but that was brilliant as Savu to come up with. Also, RVD would throw the chair at you, catch. Like, that was his spot, and then you could decide. Oh, that was brutal.

That was a bad spot. Yeah, because you catch it, and he's coming with the kick with the drop kick, and uh and it's then it's it's it's it's it's it's instead of it being flush on your face so you'd have to hurry up and flush it and pull it straight to your face to tighten it otherwise you're getting hit with a with a with a bam bam you know what i mean i remember seeing that chair shot from tommy dreamer and i had never seen a chair shot like that before in my life that one must have hurt. No, your adrenaline's pumping. It doesn't hurt. That was the chair shot heard around the world. I'm not trying to be a tough guy about this. I'm just saying your adrenaline's always flowing,

you know, and so. Is it one of those where you wake up the next day and you're like, ooh, my head does show now. It's really weird. It doesn't. You just, I mean, it hurts, but it doesn't hurt like, you know, like I've had gout, I've had pancreatitis. That hurts. You know what I mean? This is just instantaneous, you know, boom, boom, it's over and done with. So what's the story behind the chair shot heard around the world the um i had beaten up dreamer so many times that uh they needed to get some revenge on me and uh to give the people something they had to give the people something they had to give them something to hope in their baby face and give them something to you know to look like it was over the feud and um i guess i forget exactly what led up to the chair

shot but but when we got there paulie's like we're gonna i'm gonna have tommy hit you 10 times with the chair and I'm like, I'm like, no, you got to hit me once. It'll mean so much more. He goes, no, 10 times. You got to take it 10 times. I'm like, I'm like, no, I'm not going to do it, Paul. He goes, what are you scared? And I'm like, no, like, I'll take, I'll take nine chair shots back here,

but I'm only taking one out there because it'll mean more. If you hit me with a bunch of them, you know, he goes, yeah, but Axel Ron's hitting three chair shots in his match and New Jack's hitting five in his or something. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. this is something Roddy Piper taught me. It doesn't matter what happens in anybody else's match as long as they believe in your stuff. And so,

so I said, I'm just taking one. He goes, and so he finally goes, all right, I trust you. So, the dreamer gave me to one shot, and it's remembered. It was wild. He swung like he was... Imagine if there was five more coming after it. It wouldn't have meant anything. It's a good point.

Yeah. He swung like he was trying to hit a home run. Yeah, I told him to, and he was going anyway after all the shots I'd given him. In ECW, when you crucified Sandman, did you realize just with the idea that it was already, you know, pushing the envelope? Or was it not till after it was done? I didn't think it was pushing the envelope. I didn't think so.

And here's the thing is I understand why Pauley made me cut an apology afterwards. But partly it's because, you know, my family is Jewish. I don't follow the religion, but my family's Jewish. And with a last name, Levy, you know, so people just assume I'm Jewish. And Pauly's Jewish and Todd's Jewish. Todd Gordon, the owner. So they thought it was a mockery of Christianity,

but it had nothing to do with that. I mean, Madonna, you know, masturbated with the crucifix on MTV. You know, I'm thinking this is tame compared to that. You know, and to me, it was just, it was a it was a um it was a metaphor it was a metaphor for for tommy for tommy feeling my the chair i mean the uh the crucifix i mean that i'm confusing him this the crucifix with sandman was just for him to feel my pain you know because ily raven was always i considered him a martyr for society's dysfunction when you were told you had to go out there and apologize

how did you feel about that i didn't like it because to me, if you're the extreme promotion, even if you cross, if you expect you to cross the line at some point, you know, and if you're going to cry, if you're going to come up to the line all the time, that's great. But if you cross it, you shouldn't go and apologize because you're the extreme promotion. You're the extreme promotion wouldn't apologize. But because Pauli's Jewish and Todd's Jewish and my last name's Levy, you know, with a name like that, people just assume I'm Jewish. And, uh, and my family is, but I never followed the faith. but it's neither here nor there.

But, you know, so I can see how people would mistake it as, you know, as, you know, religious, you know, beating down on Christianity. But it had nothing to do with that. It was a metaphor. It was a raven considered himself a martyr for society's dysfunction. And now he was making Sandman feel his pain. And so that's why I was really excited about putting him up on the cross. He even built it for me.

Yeah, I said, Sam, man, you got to build this. I can't build a cross. I got no carpentry skills. Did you push back of like, I don't, I don't. Yeah, of course. But then you obviously had to do it anyway. Yeah, so he said, make sure it's sincere. And I gave the most sincere and sincere speech I could give.

Well, I mean, it got the point across. Yeah. But I think it worked. I think it would have been better if they just left it alone. And it did get the right reaction. Everybody thought it got the wrong reaction, but it got that, it got that silent. Oh. Ooh.

You know, and I don't think they wanted us to apologize, you know. Even the people who wanted an apology didn't really want one because it doesn't, it doesn't serve anybody. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. When you were in ECW was the goal to go from there back to WWE to go back to WCW or were you really happy doing what you were doing there? Yes. Yes, I was really happy at ECW. and but yes, I wanted to go back to WWE.

I wanted to be the top guy in the top promotion, you know. I got to be the top guy in the number, oops, in the number three promotion. And for a long time, I felt like my career was a failure because of that. I think I talked about it in the movie in the documentary. But it took a third, took a lot of time on a therapist's couch to let myself off the hook, you know, because you hold yourself to such a high standard that,

you can't see the forest for the trees, you know. My career was incredibly, if anybody who came up to me and told me my career what my career was, and it was theirs, I would say, man, you got a really successful career. Yeah. But I couldn't count it as well that for me because I didn't get to be the world champion of the WWE, you know.

Are you able to now look back? Yeah, yeah, of course. After I went on the therapist couch, I was fine. You know, I got way past it early, you know. I got past it before. probably before I left WWE. That's when I started doing therapy, I think. I've always wanted to ask you about this spot on MTV.

So Carson Daley is interviewing DDP. Foo Fighters are sitting right there, and you deliver one of the hardest stop sign shots to DDP's head. What's the story behind all this? Well, first of all, he told me to hit him as hard as I could. So, you know, it's like when I hit Dreamer with it, when I, there's a thing in the magazines where, where it's an ad for 800 number or something, I think,

and it's got a shot at Dreamer and he's bleeding and he's handcuffed to the ropes, to the front of the ropes. Yes, yes. And from that, that was, I hit him with a chair shot just as hard. But it makes me think of that because, you know, Dreamer told me, goes, you got to lay it in. You got to, I'll say, I'll lay it in. Then he goes, make sure you lay it in.

I'm like, I'm laying it in. And so I remember hitting Dreamer. just as hard as a sand man, I mean, just as hard as a DDP. Because DDP gave me the same, you got to hit me hard now.

You got to lay it in. I'm like, I'll lay it in. It was hard. And then, I was like, ooh, that hurt.

And then the DDT through the table. Yeah. Like MTV's table just shattered. He had, Taylor Hawkins jumped out of his seat, man. It was so funny.

Did they know? No, they had no idea. So Dave Grohl and Taylor had no idea. No idea. And they nearly shit their pants. the uh yeah it was funny um inside i was laughing my ass off because they just was so oh my god what the fuck and they jumped and this is at the point in time when m tv is m tv it's huge it's it's it's on the

beginning of the downslide i think but it's still a point where like that's big in pop culture yeah it's still huge it's still huge in pop culture yeah yeah but it wasn't it was yeah it was it was either at the end at a peak or the beginning of the downfall. Oh, man. That was wild to say. Yeah, it really was. The, um, and, uh, yeah, well, it was pretty good. It was a great spot because what they did was they had me on TV, on the TV.

So it looked like I was at a different location, arguing with Page. Yeah. And then I just come walking out of another room that they'd had me hidden in all day and just waffle them. Who would you say in WCW? Page, Paige got balls because. you know, he's not only does he not know when it's coming, so he can't tighten up.

Yeah. But he's got to get hit from hitting the back of a hit in the head, you know, and not flinch until, you know, so that's why I never get hit from behind, first of all, because, you know, you can't control how your movement on it. You just get waffled. Yeah. Also, you can't flinch or tighten up because it's too obvious, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So, like, if I would, normally, what I, what I do is, if I'm going to get hit with a chair shot and they want to hit me from behind, I'll have, I'll be behind and then I'll have him spin me around, and then I'll get this, not only will I get to not have to take it, you know, and not flinch, but I can take it correctly. Yeah. And they get the surprise out of it, like, oh, shit, you know, face. Yeah.

So you get an extra spot out of it, you know what I mean? But this time, I wouldn't have worked on this because he's sitting in a chair and a couch or whatever. And Paige got balls, man, because I just waffled the shit. shit out of them, you know. I feel like you are always paid the compliment that you have one of the greatest minds in wrestling. How do you react when you hear that?

I like that. I'm not, I don't think I do have the greatest mind. I think Pauley does. But, you know, I'd like to think that I'm, you know, I don't know, top 50. I'd say a little higher than that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, but, you know, but, yeah. it makes you feel good, you know, it makes you feel recognized. What do you think is the biggest?

Because that's part of the reason I was so egotistical all my life was because I had no sense of self-worth. And when you have no sense of self-worth, that's what, when you're insecure, you become an egomaniac. To hide it, you know. And I had what's called a looking glass self. If I can convince you I'm great by bragging, maybe you can convince me that I'm actually great.

it's kind of a weird kind of a thing but but it makes sense though and uh and so it took a lot of time on his therapist couch again till i was able to deal with not having not being egotistical and being okay with just you know and being okay with myself when did you start therapy around what age? When I was in WWE. So, 2000, let's just say 2001,

2002, maybe. Did something happen at that time that? Yeah, I was watching a couple old timers, one old timer in specific, and I won't mention,

talking about a house he sold out, you know, and bragging about it. And I'm like, oh man, I don't want to be 60 years old bragging about houses I did just because I'm in,

secure, you know. I got to do something about this. And what was the work that you did? Was it just like realizing you had more self-worth than what you did in the ring? Yeah, it's talking to a therapist and her leading me to the, that's the annoying thing about therapists is they lead you to the answers. They don't necessarily give you the answers. They make you figure them out unless you can't figure it out and then they'll kind of help you along the way. But that's their whole job is to get you, is to get you where at the end goal. And after I spent time one of therapist counts, you know, a couple years, two, three years at least, I was finally, you know, I was able to deal with all the, uh, the baggage. You know, I still, when I talk about

the baggage, um, it's still, even though I've dealt with all the issues and I'm cool with them, it's still like ripping a band-aid off, you know, especially like, that's why, you know, why, when the director sent me a copy of the documentary, he goes, uh, all right, we watch this and give me your thoughts and I go okay and six weeks later he calls up he goes have you watched it yet I go no I just didn't want to watch it I didn't want to go through that pain again you know and uh but then I watched it and then he sent it back to me I gave him some ideas and some thoughts on where we should add and subtract and he goes I sent it back to him and uh or I didn't send it back to him I just told him and he uh and he sent me another copy and then that one took

going to look only like four weeks to watch you know what was the toughest part to watch do you think just the whole thing just you know the whole you know like knowing that you know it's like jericho said he goes people either love them or hate them knowing that people hate me isn't fun you know especially people that i think of his friends but you know or people that are colleagues you know work colleagues, you know. But, you know, it's, it's painful not being popular and stuff like that, you know. Yeah. I'm okay with it now because that's, you know, that's who I was and I would get that kid a hug now if I saw him, you know, but the, yeah, but it's painful, though. I mean, you know, it's not, it's not anything I can't handle at this point, you know, like I've dealt with it,

you know, but it's still, it still wreaks havoc on me when I think about it. And when I do these interviews, my tremor gets worse because, you know, the anxiety and the pain, they always make it get worse. Was it tough filming the documentary with that, too? Yeah, because my tremor wasn't quite as bad back then. We filmed it like four years ago. Yeah. You know, because it takes, you know, a year or two to film, you know, and then a year or two to edit.

and a year or two to get distributed in the year or two. I don't have to 12 years now. But no, but... Well, it's out now. Yeah. Yeah, and everyone can go watch this. And on Amazon Prime. There we go.

And, but, yeah, it's just, I'm very proud of it. You know, I haven't watched it, though, since the second Rough Cutty sent me. You know, after that, you know, I saw the last half hour. one of the showings I went to, but usually whenever I'd go to the screenings of it, the sneak screenings, I would introduce the movie and then I'd go off and get something to eat.

Is it true that at WrestleMania 17, during that hardcore match, you guys almost knocked the power out to the building? That's true? Yeah. What's the specific spot? I'm driving the golf cart. Yeah.

And shows choking me. I didn't expect show to be choking me, so I wanted to swerve a bunch, because I don't want to just drive straight because we're supposed to drive all the way around the Astrodome. Make a full 360-degree drive. And that was my favorite spot of the match

and I totally ruined it. Because there was a fence, a chain-link fence, that was from ceiling to ground. And it was, and the sidewalk dropped off on the other side of the chain. So I went to bounce off the chain with the car, figuring I'd bounce off and swerved back on.

Yeah. And the wheel just went off the edge and just died right there. And the car wouldn't move, you know, to try the golf car wouldn't move because the wheel was off the track. Not as the track, but off the road. And so I tried to get it back on and shows going, no, no, leave it, leave it. I'm like, ah, I want to go on the, Kane's going to chase us in the other golf car. It's going to be so cool.

And he's like, you know, so I'm like, that's what, so. So then I just ran out in the traffic and got to run over by Kane. That could have been so bad. Yeah, but I had to do something in my mind to make up for the spot that I screwed up. But when I found after the show, one of the production guys got to grab the hold of me, and he said, you know, he goes, you came within millimeters of cutting off the power to the entire show. He goes, you landed right on the wire that has runs the power to the show. And it would have, if you would have cut through it, you would have killed power to the entire.

event. Jeez. That would have got me so much heat. I'd have definitely been fired for that. What's the thing you're most proud of from your time in WWE? WWE. Um. We can go through all of them if you want.

I'll start with ECW. WECW, I mean, I'll just give you my, my proudest moments that I can think of at the top of my head. Um, Goldberg had to, good match before that. And it's one of his, I don't know, Goldberg might have had good matches

in this run he's had recently. I don't know. I haven't watched any of it, as I said. But back in the day, I was the first good match he had and the first really good match, let alone good match. And I was really proud of that. I was able to get that out of him. The Terry Gordy match, because Terry Gordy had been in a coma and he wasn't the same anymore. He had some very brain damage. And, uh, but I got, but I, the match I set up with Stevie, you know, Stevie helping me run interference, um, was, uh, made it look like the old Gordy was back for one night. And even, like, I remember even the sheets were all like, the old Gordy's back.

And then the next week when he wasn't, when it was, you know, the, the, the brain damage Gordy, they, uh, they never gave me credit for the thing. So I pissed me off. But what are you going to do? But that was one of my favorite match. matches. Because the biggest problem in the ECW history was probably when Gordy came out. Because nobody could believe that he would come out, you know, that he was going to be working there. And the first time he came out, I was sitting in the corner with Camona.

And he came out, and it was the biggest pop in company history. And it was cool because the way the arena is, the seats open, the entranceway. the people had got all clogged in, so nobody could see who was coming. They just heard the music. And they kept pulling, peeling back, peeling back as he went, you know, it opened up. And it was like it was peeling back the people and they reveal Gordy. And he hits the ring and runs the ropes like he does.

And the place went wild. It was crazy. And so that my match with Rino at WWE in Backlash, which I think is probably the best hardcore match up until that point in history, I think. I mean, Rino did so much. I can't believe he dove into a shopping cart. Like, I don't know how he fit, you know. That's a great point.

He's so huge, and he's still fit in the shopping cart. It was crazy when he gored it. What else? How many 24-7, or sorry, how many hardcore championships did you win? 39. They only give me credit for 27, though. So where is the extra 12? I don't know.

when they at some point at some point i go yeah i wonder how many of these i've won and so i counted back and and then i counted forward after that and then uh and again 39 not then but they get 27 so yeah but then a lot of times it would change hands three or four times in the night you know should we adjust the record books yes but they won't so we could adjust wikipedia if you want people watching this we'll fix this yeah if they wanted that'd be great did they get stevie's number right He's number two, right? I don't know. I think so.

All you know is your number should be 39. Yeah. Well, Wikipedia will be taken care of, I'm sure, after this. There you go. Do you feel like you were underutilized in WWE? Oh, yeah. What more should they have done with you? They should have pushed me.

They didn't really push me at all, you know. They gave me no... I should have been used at least as a strong mid-carder, if not a main event or, you know, I feel like. But that's me, you know. I mean, I could be biased, and I'm sure I am. But looking at it objectively, I think I could have drawn money for him, you know? Yeah.

Who's someone in WWE you didn't get a chance to work with? A lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, most of them I didn't get a chance to work with because they stuck me out of the way on heat matches, mostly, or hardcore matches. Which I like hardcore matches because it's more props. Like, I love the fact that you can, like, the creativity on the spots you can do so much more, you can come up with so much more creative spots when you have more things to choose from, you know? So I love the hardcore division. I just felt that most people didn't do it

right because they would just, I hit you, you hit me, I hit you, you hit me. And the match is still have the same psychology as a regular match, you know, baby face shine, heel gets heat, babyface makes a comeback. I don't know why they, people change it because it's a hardcore match, you know, And that's why it got such a bad reputation as just garbage wrestling. Yeah. You know. You spent more time in TNA than anywhere else, right? Is it, I guess.

Right? More time there in total, I think. Maybe. Probably. I don't know. What are your fondest memories of your time in TNA? The, what was the match? Oh, yeah, the Clockwork Orange match.

So I got a match that I made. not that it's not that it's much different in a hard it's basically half a cage match with a hardcore weapons tied to the cage but it became known it became known as a certain match and so that's cool you know when people aren't when new matches aren't being invented you know it's cool because they specifically wanted a new invention and so I felt that was cool and then I said the less famous hangman's horror match where you uh you had a dog collar you had a chain with a dog collar on end on each four middle, each four ropes on each four sides in the middle. And you want to get the guy caught in the middle and hang in, put the dog collar around him

on at least two chains. So he's stuck there and then you can share shot him, you know, which is less popular for good reason. Maybe you can answer this question for the internet. Maybe I can. I'm sure you can. You're on the cover of the WCWNWO revenge video game. Yes.

How are you on the cover? there. You're on there. I don't deserve it. I'm not saying that. The people want to know. Yes. The boys wanted to know too, like, because it's Nash, Goldberg, and Hogan, and then me. And, you know, the boys are like, you know, Jericho and Connie and my buddies, they're like, who'd you blow to get on the cover? And I'm like, nobody, I have no idea. I had no idea I got on there. And it turned out, like I found out like a year later that the guy who invented the game, I was his favorite wrestler, so he put me in the cover. And that's it. That's it.

I mean, now you live on in history because of this. Yeah. What a lovely surprise that must have been. Yeah. Like, you, you hadn't, no one told you this before? The game just came out. Yep. And you're like, oh, my gosh.

Yep. I'm on there. Yeah, except I don't play video games, so it wasn't that big a deal. But it's still cool, though. I mean, that's a pretty amazing thing. I actually went out and bought a player to play it. I played it once, and I was like, I don't want to play this anymore. I suck.

I think you had one of the most entertaining Hall of Fame speeches ever. Thank you. Halfway through, you asked the crowd to boo you. Yes. And then at the end, you give Tommy Dreamer a DDT. Yes. Was this just like, does Raven being Raven? Yeah.

I never felt comfortable for a long time with cheers, you know. It's like being egotistical and insecure. It's funny. it's when people do this compliment you, then you feel embarrassed and awkward and uncomfortable. The thing you're craving more than anything is to be praised and to be complimented. And when people do it,

all you can do is shy away and feel really weird and stupid about it like you don't deserve it. So it's really fucked up. And luckily, once I dealt with who did therapy, I got much better at taking compliments. But that's why I chose being a heel because most people don't want to really be a heel. They just, they want to be cheap. Most people want to be cheered. Everybody wants to be

cheered. I like to be booed because it's the same, means the same as cheers, but it's more, A, it's more visceral, I think. Um, because you got to, you got to have a, have a gut reaction of fuck you is a pretty strong reaction compared to yay, let's go. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, uh, but yes. And then the reason I DDT dreamer at the end was because That's what Raven would do. Raven would, you know, even at his shining moment, he still can't take away his grudge for Drew against Dreamer. And so I shook his hand and DDTed him.

What's the worst weapon shot to take? And what's the best one to take? You've done them all. Yeah. The best, let's see, the worst weapon shot to take, I don't know, maybe the lip of the chair. Sometimes people hit you with the lip of the chair. That hurts a little more.

How's this thing in poor cane? Oh, no, that's the worst. I hated that. I hated being caned. I'd rather get share-shot it than caned, I think. Really? Yeah, and I hate it, especially when the cane's all tightened up. Yeah.

Like, when it's brand new, like, I always would uncut the strings on it to the wrapper to keep it tight. So that way it's looser, so it makes more noise, and it doesn't hurt as much for the guy taking it. You know, and then you can also have it, hopefully it'll break in half at some point if it's made cheaply, you know? Um, the, uh, thumb tacks are really weird because thumbtacks, you, you land in a pile of them, they don't hurt at all.

You land one, you get one in your knee. And it hurts like a motherfucker. But you land on a hundred of them, it doesn't hurt at all, you know? So it's like, you know, you go, you land in them, you're like, hey, I'm okay, you know, and then you go to a roll onto your knee and there's one that's, it's in there, and you don't realize, and you go, ah, fuck me. You know what else was interesting? was the barbed wire match where they take down the ring ropes and put a barbed wire.

Yeah. Yeah, I did one of those. And because Pauli knew I always wanted to do one, but then I was also scared of doing it. And so he said he put me in one, so I'd have to. Because I think he made it for the belt so that I couldn't try and weasel my way out of it, which I didn't want to have an excuse. I wanted to do it, you know, because I wanted to do it, but I was just scared. and I told Sandman, I go, listen, I go, I want you to whip me with the, hold the barbed wiring

and whip me with it. And if I don't move, that means give me another one. And so he's like, he's like, all right, he goes, you'll be moving after one. I'm like, probably. And so he whips me with it. I'm like, oh, and so bad. And so I didn't move. And he's like, oh, you're not moving, are you? Ah, whap, whap. And whip me with it. Well, sir, you have had an incredible career. Thank you. Congratulations. I love the documentary.

Thank you. I think every wrestling fan should go watch this. See, I would love it. But see, now, if you would have told me that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I'd have been like, oh, yeah, and I'd have made a joke or something and not been able to handle the, you know, a genuine compliment, you know, like that. You're very good at receiving compliments now.

Yeah, it's something I worked on because before I would just compliment myself, and that was what it worked. Yeah, but like I think that that's to say thank you, to receive it. I think that that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, I feel, I always, always wanted to be somebody who could accept compliments. It just took me time. Well, you're there now. So thank you.

Thank you for the time. Thank you for making this happen. I'll ask you the question that I ask everybody at the end, because gratitude is such a huge thing in my life. I wake up every day, say I allow the three things I'm grateful for, do it before we go to bed as well. So what are three things? things in your life right now, Raven, that you're grateful for.

Selena. Selena takes up all three spots. I would not be the person I am without her. I love her more than I could love anybody else. Her family's made me feel like, you know, family. So her family would be number two. And even when we got divorced, they stood by me. At first they didn't get it, but after about a year,

then they still called, they started, they got it, and then they still call me son to this day. In fact, on Thanksgiving, I had to go on the road Friday, and so I wasn't going to go to, they living down in Niceville, Destin, Florida area. And so I wasn't going to be able to, I didn't want to go down for Thanksgiving because I'd have to turn around and drive right back

or fly out of down there. And it was going to be a pain in the ass, you know, they'd get flights. and stuff. And so, because you were supposed to go there for Thanksgiving. And so they changed their plans and they brought their whole Thanksgiving meals up here. The meal they had planned for us when we came down there, they brought in a cooler. And we had Thanksgiving up into my house as opposed to, you know, the, them, the three of them having it at their house at their mom's house, dad's house, you know. So Selena's going to take up all three spots.

Selena, her parents, and financially, I feel I'm grateful that I've, financially, I'm in a really good place. It's great. Pretty cool that wrestling has done all this for you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I want to speak on behalf of all fans when I say this. Thank you. Thank you for everything you did to your body for our entertainment. You're welcome.

But thank you. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand.

He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it. Get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What's your beef? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. been warned.