Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Referee Aubrey Edwards on making history, AEW, how she started, Chris Jericho

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

AEW Referee Aubrey Edwards chats with Chris Van Vliet in Washington, DC. She talks about making history as the first ever female referee in a main event title match, how she got hired by AEW, working with Cody Rhodes, how she got started as a ref and much more! Audio equipment provided by Samson Technologies: bit.ly/CVVSamson Here's the ref bump we talk about from Fenix (OUCH!): https://youtu.be/dpBVv8BKwzI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Look at you, man. What's that? The powerful questions. Woo! This is the Chris Van Vleecho. Chris Van Vleecho. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris

B! Oh, Oh man, here it is. Here we go. What a week. What a week to be a pro wrestling fan. What a week for wrestling in general. Wow.

I just got back from Washington, D.C., where maybe you saw it. Maybe you were watching Dynamite. I had the incredible honor of being part of the first ever episode of A.E.W. Dynamite on TNT. And what a show. Man, still jacked up about it. From start to finish, from top to bottom. What a show.

and it was fantastic. I'm just so excited to see where things go from here and also what this means for the pro wrestling industry as a whole. I mean, ever since the start of the year, you know. I've been saying it. Rising Tides lift all boats. And the winners here are the fans of whatever company it is you decide to watch on whatever day of the week that it is that you decide to watch it.

It's awesome. So I've been chatting with Aubrey Edwards on Instagram for a while now. And since I was part of Dynamite, That meant that we were in the same city at the same time, and we were able to make this interview happen the morning of dynamite. And she's so awesome. And I know you're going to take so many different things out of this chat. It's a great one.

And I appreciate all the support you guys have been giving me, and the support you've been giving me on the show as well. It means so much to me that we can connect on this common ground that is pro wrestling, this common interest that we have. And I appreciate all the reviews you guys have been leaving. on Apple Podcasts, on iTunes. It helps the show so much. I know I say this every episode, but it helps the show so much.

So please continue leaving them. And if you haven't left one yet, please, it'll take you about 27 seconds to do this. And I'm going to keep reading a review on the show so you can be part of the show and I can shout you out. Like the Alex Albrough, who says, major CVV Stan. Five-star review. Thank you, Alex Albrough. the show was this show was what got me into podcast in general honestly i found CVV in the summer while working and haven't stopped listening since one thing i love about these podcasts is how rewatchable

or relistenable they are i've gone back through and listened to some of these pods multiple times just for fun keep up the great work man i look forward to who you will talk with next in the future how nice is that thank you and thank you for the extra plays by watching or listening to it more than once it's awesome So please keep leaving the reviews. It means a lot to me if you could take the time to do that. And also subscribe if you haven't done that yet. I also couldn't do this without our main sponsor, our OG sponsor, Greenroads.

And if you've been thinking about trying CBD products, Green Roads is the way to go because not all CBD products are created equal. I mean, you've heard a lot about CBD. You've heard a lot about this boom. And Green Roads is the real deal. They are a pharmacist founded company dedicated to improving the lives. of people who take it. And CBD products, yes, they are THC-free, so it's all of the other ingredients without THC in it. For me, a couple of drops of the CBD oil under the chunk, bloop, just like that, little drops, bloop, and you're good to go. And it's really helped me a lot with my rest and recovery

after the gym, and also with kind of taking your brain from everything that's going on in there, and, you know, kind of straighten things out just a little bit. Use my code, Chris 15, to get 15% off your order at greenroadsworld.com. That's Chris 1-5-415% off at greenroadsworld.com. The show is also brought to you by Samson Technologies. I couldn't do it without them because I would not have a microphone to be speaking into or any recording equipment to be recording with. And a lot of people ask, what kind of equipment do I need to start a YouTube channel or a

podcast? I would start with SamsonTech.com not only because it sounds really great, like you can hear now and you can hear in this interview, but also because it's very affordable. SamsonTech.com's where you can check out their full lineup. So referees have a really interesting role. I mean, it's this fine balance between getting their job done and also fading into the background so that the wrestlers can really shine. Aubrey has a ton of personality, a pretty amazing story, too, about how she got to where she's at. She was working in the video game world for 10 years before this. It blew me away. It's going to

blow you away too that she's only been a referee for two years and now she's working the biggest matches in AEW. But at the heart of this is a story about setting goals and chasing dreams, which can really be applied to any area of your life. Also, you should check out the interview on YouTube if just to see the thumbnail, it's awesome. And as soon as you see it, you'll be like, oh yes, I know exactly what you're talking about, CVV. So here you go. Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy it. It's Aubrey Edwards. Today's a big day. Very big.

Yeah. Very, very big. It's like we've all been working towards this. Yeah. So it's like, you know, the four shows leading up to this point, it's like it keeps getting bigger. Yeah. And I'm curious when that feeling's going to like stop or if it's ever going to stop. Why would it stop?

I know. Like I don't want it to. Yeah. But I think like my heart kind of wants it to because I'm just still like nervous every time we do a show. It's crazy. It's been four shows leading up to this. Yeah. Yeah.

There's going to be four shows this month. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, oh. You didn't. No, it's been interesting trying to figure out what, like, normal is now. Because my last job was, like, a Monday to Friday office 9 to 5.

Yeah, yeah. And now I'm like, oh, I went to work yesterday, which is like going to the airport, flying all day. And then Wednesday is a show. And then Thursday's going back. I'm like, oh, this is what normal is now. Yeah. So the work week now, as we do quotations for people who are just listening to this, is Tuesday to Thursday, I guess. Right.

And then occasional Saturday for pay-per-views. but yeah. I'm interested to see how this ends up changing as, you know, we have the same conversation a year from now and two and five, you know. Yeah. As schedules continues to ramp up, I would think. Yeah. I'm definitely interested to see where this goes just because, like, if you look at,

what was October, so 10 months. Like this was originally just an idea. I'm sure they were talking about it before January. Sure. To know that it's gotten this big in 10 months. Like what's the next 10 months going to? it's just it's fascinating and it's you know it's live tonight on tn tn't even though we've been live every other time it's like i think maybe just because it's cable like because my in-laws are

texting me like i saw you want a commercial and i'm like yeah it's real like i've been telling you for months this is a thing is that when it got real uh i think it got real like there's that moment where uh so the roughs kind of come down the side ramp and then we hop in the ring yeah and then as soon as At least this is for me. I don't know where it's real for other people. But like when the music hits for the first person, that's the moment of like, oh, here we go. Okay. We're doing this.

This is real. Pages coming out on a horse now. That's right. So yeah, that's when it's real for me. And then like as soon as the bell rings, it's just, it's just work. Yeah. Well, how did this all come together for you? Oh, God.

Do you want to talk about like ref specific or like AEW specific? Let's talk AEW. you and then we'll get into the other stuff after. Like, you've been reffing in the Indies for a couple of years. For like two years. Yeah, which is pretty crazy to think about. Yeah, it went fast. Yeah.

What, do you remember the date or at least the idea of when your first match was? July 7th, 2017. Okay, that's very specific. Yeah. Well, it was like I said, I had my like two year rough birthday a couple months ago. I had a show on my birthday.

I always try to like ref a match on my birthday just to like keep it going. So yeah, it's like it's a bit. I celebrate that more than I celebrate my actual. actual birthday. Well, I mean, that probably makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's a life changing thing. It's a part of who I am now, right? Like it's, it's, it was a hobby and then now it's my career, so it's part of my identity. Yeah. So it's, it's an important day. Like, I definitely bought myself some birthday cake ice cream. Nice. I know. What's the go-toe ice cream flavor? Um, so Halo Top has a really good birthday cake. Uh, my current favorite, because I went vegan right before double or nothing. So finding like a good

ice cream is really hard because a lot of them are really gritty. Yeah. Um, um, My favorite brand so far is it's so delicious because they use cashew milk. Yeah. And it's so good. It's not, but let's be honest. It doesn't quite taste like ice cream. Like Ben and Jerry's was like my jam. So, yeah.

And I know they've gotten on dairy, but it's, it's not quite there. Yeah. Not quite there. So you were not even two years into this when things came together with AEW. Correct. So basically kind of what happened, it was like right place, right time. Like just purely like happenstance that it happened. It was December of last year, and I was working a show up in Vancouver, All-Star Wrestling.

Best City on Earth. Oh, man, it's so great. I live there for a year. Yeah. I'm from Canada. Oh, nice. I love Canada. I've been working up in Canada for a good chunk of the last two years.

I'm sorry about that. Sorry. Sorry. I don't actually, no one in Canada actually talks like that. They all talk like that. What are you talking about? No, they're not. Take a boot to the face.

That one's always fun. So you're working in Vancouver. So I was working in Vancouver. It was just like some show in December or whatever. And like Frankie Kuzerian was there. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's interesting. Like, I think he was like, Ring of Honor Tag Champ at the time. Like, he had the belt.

And I'm like, oh, my God, this is, this is nuts. Because like, anytime, like, I work with someone who's like a name, it's still exciting, right? Because they've reached a different levels. So I know I'm going to learn a lot out of it. Of course. But, yeah, so we worked the match together. And, you know, he apparently really liked what I did. And he was asking my background a little bit.

I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I. I did May Young Classic last year. I've done a little bit of work with WWE. So I was talking about that a little bit. And we were just like, oh, yeah, cool. Just having like a normal conversation, not realizing that like two weeks later, AEW gets announced.

Oh, yeah. This is a job interview. I was like, oh, this is a plot twist. Okay. And funny enough, it was, I think it was the 12th of January. I did another show up in Canada. And there was a couple guys that ended up getting pulled from the show

because of contract-related things. and Frankie Kazarian got booked to, like, fill in the spot. I'm like, huh, all right, I'm going to take a chance on this one. So I end up working with him again. And he asked for all my information. I mean, at this point, like, AEW is a thing. Like, we know it's a thing. Yeah.

Literally a week later, I'm working at Defy in Seattle, and all of SCU was on the show. And that was the one where the young bucks show up. They saved Joey Ryan. Right. Right. So that was, I think, like, the first one of those stretches. So I worked the match with SCU. And then as soon as I get through the curtain,

and we start talking double or nothing. And then it's just boom, boom, boom, boom. Wow. Yeah, it was nuts. So I had known for a while before it had gotten announced, which is like when you know like a secret, but you can't tell anyone, it's like the worst part of wrestling where it's like, I know all of these cool things, but I can't tell you.

But you just recently said goodbye to your day job. Right, yeah. I was working in software for the last 10 years. It was a video game producer. Which is also like pretty awesome. Yeah, like it's not a lot of people. get their like dream job once but I got it twice so so what do I mean I think some people might know that you worked in video gaming but what what specifically were you

doing I originally started as a programmer so like my first couple games I was working on like tools pipeline I worked on a lot of stuff on like Nintendo DS at the time so you have very little memory space but you have to stick a whole lot of art in there so like basically writing tools that allow you to take these big art images and put them in a little tiny ones and zeros Wow. And then eventually I went into production, which is essentially you're the person who's hurting cats and putting the schedule together. And defining what it is that we're doing.

Like if a publisher says we want these specific things on this date, then it's my job to break down what goes into all of that and make sure that we have the right people to do it. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's a lot of like, honestly, there's a lot of crossover with refing because like there's nothing that I do in a video game where I point out and say I did that. because all of my stuff is on a schedule, and I can't print out a schedule and stick it in the box. Like, that's not how I ship anything.

Sure. So to say that I'm a ref, like, I'm there to help other people be successful. Yeah. So a lot of what I did in my prior career, I kind of took over that same philosophy and brought that to wrestling. Our video game, like, when you work at a place

where you're making video games, is it as fun as people think? People are like, you get to play games all day. I'm like, yeah, but the game's broken for like three years. Like right up until the very, end and then even then it's like day one patch remember the movie grandma's boy oh that was my college like

verbatim almost like I used to compete in DDR we don't talk about that very much that was many many years ago but like you definitely have like the guy in the trench coat with like the 10 monitors who's just leaning back and like typing yeah and then like it's

it's over the top and it's a parody but I mean it's parody for a reason there's a lot of people So what? Do you have a favorite video game? I'm a big Legend of Zelda fan. I'm actually playing the Link's Awakening remake right now. Okay.

That's why I didn't get enough sleep last night because I just finished the seventh dungeon. But yeah, like Zelda was the game that made me want to make video games. I think I've played through Ocaryne of Time like 18 times. I've played through, yeah, I'm a huge Zelda nerd. Do you have a favorite system? Oh, God. I think my favorite, like current favorite is a switch because I've, I feel like it's done everything that I loved out of Nintendo portables, but made it accessible and it allows you to bring something powerful with you on the road, right?

I was a big and 64 fan. Like, Diddy Kong Racing, Banja Kuzui, Golden Eye, Mario 64, like, that was my childhood. Yeah. So you've said goodbye to the video game world now. I have. Well, if anything, like, now I can, like, do it as a hobby. Like, I'm basically just swapping. You are.

I can do video game making on the weekend. Yeah. And then do roughing during the week. Yeah. What is my life, man? What is your? Isn't this pretty crazy? It's weird.

Yeah. It's super weird. But like if we take things back just a little bit, you were also like doing some stuff for WWE before, which is, you would have only been a yearish into your refereing career. That was basically like, I think they originally reached out to me like a week before my like one year ref birthday. Okay. So that was like, okay, this is, this is weird and this happened fast. And I think at that point, I hadn't really thought about this as.

as a potential career. I was just having fun. And like I always tend to pour like 100% into whatever it is I'm doing anyway. So by that point, I was already doing two to three shows every weekend. But it hadn't like clicked that, oh, this could be a thing.

Well, because when you're, when you're year in and you're doing two or three shows, you're not making a ton of money. No, it's like you're making like 20 bucks. Yeah. Like maybe you're selling merch as a ref. Like there's,

there's a possibility there. But it's like you're maybe breaking even. Yeah. Because I'm buying Taco Bill after the shows. I've got gas I need to pay for. So it's like, you know, at this point I'm doing it for the fun of it. I'm not doing it to pay my bills. But they reached out to me because they were looking for another female ref for the Mayan Classic.

And so I went, I tried out. They liked me enough that they put me on TV, which was insane. And I learned a lot from them just because it's a massive company with a lot of history. They've learned a lot of lessons that they apply. Their ref team adapts to all of the different platforms they have. So I think a lot of my current success I have to attribute. to them just because like the ref team down at nxte was fantastic what's a tryout like do you actually go in and ref a dark match so like my tryout was a little interesting because like you see

videos of tryouts online where it's like a bunch of people and they're all doing roles and stuff whereas i think my tryout i was the only one there and then on top of that i show up monday and they're like oh yeah just get into your workout clothes we've got yoga this morning i'm like oh that's cool and then i go downstairs and there's ddp and i'm like oh oh oh this is what we're doing Okay. So literally my trial was like, I'm going to do like DDPY for a week. And then I got thrown into a couple classes, learn how to ref. They have drills.

And I ended up doing a dark match at NXT that week because it was a taping week. So yeah, that was essentially my tryout is just kind of see how I fit with the team, how quickly I learn, how quickly I can adapt. Yeah. Because you never know what a locker room is going to be like. And a lot of it is you have this great product that you're trying to. to do, but you really want good people behind it, right? And that's like one of the things I really love about AEW is like everyone involved with the product is just so awesome. Like it's a really,

it feels like an indie locker room, whereas everyone's just chill, super, like I haven't met a single person I don't like. Yeah. Everyone's cool. Now is it, is it interesting for you to be a yearish in having this amazing success? Because I've got to be part of you that's going, this must happen everybody. No, like I, I knew full well that I was the And I think part of that too is like like secrets out I'm a woman, right? And there's not a lot of us. You are? What? So I think that's I definitely got a lot of opportunities, you know, simply because I'm a woman, but I ended up getting the jobs because I'm talented. So that's sort of the difference there, right? And it's like it's an entertainment field. We see people who we want to have them fit a certain role like, like Marco Stun for instance. He's like my favorite example. Like, He fits a very particular mold that a lot of people maybe wouldn't be looking for for their wrestling company, but he's something that AEW wants. Yeah.

So if you find someone or you're looking for someone to fit that role, then that's where the opportunity is, right? So the fact that WWE was looking for more female refs, like, I think it's just the timing of it. Sure. Honestly. Like this wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. Not at all. So it's like I'm, I basically got into it right at the right time. So it's not lost on me that like the.

the amount of success I've had in two years. Like that's not normal at all. And I'm really super grateful for that. And there's a lot of things that needed to line up in order for that to happen. But, you know, I'm pretty dang happy with the way things turned out. And you've been breaking through barriers. And, you know, you've, whether you know it or not, you've become a role model for a lot of women out there that are watching. Oh, yo, I know it.

I have, like, messages from parents, like almost every day where they're just like, my daughter gets to watch wrestling. And she gets to see this strong authoritative woman on TV, like putting Jericho in his place. And like there was this one dad who tweeted at me and he said, my daughter said, look, dad, if I become a ref, I can ref the important matches too. Wow. And I'm just like, I'm not crying. I'm not crying. But that's like the interesting thing, right? It's like, now there's this, it's one thing to be on TV, but I think that's the pressure I feel more because it's like, now I have to be consistent because I know that there's all these people like looking up to me that potentially want to ref. Like I have a student.

currently who saw me a double or nothing. And she's like, wait, she's from Seattle. So she drives up three hours every week to train with me. Oh, my God. Yeah. So it's like, that's awesome. Yeah.

So there's like people like this now who like really didn't think about this as before. And, you know, AW says wrestling is for everyone. Like we've seen it. Representation matters. There's a lot of girls now who didn't think roughing was a possibility. Yeah. Who are seeing me,

who are seeing Jess, who are seeing all these other women kind of like come to the forefront in the black and white stripes. Yeah. And we're seeing it as like something that we can have a lot of women do now. Well, there was a point where it was, okay, you're a woman, you will ref the women's matches. Right. Or you will, you're a woman commentator.

You will commentate on the women's matches. Right. And I feel like a lot of that has to do with also there's a unique picture there. Like on the Indies, the first time I'd work with a company, I always ended up getting the women's match. And part of it is how often do you have that picture where literally everyone in the ring is a woman? It's a very unique thing. So I think from an unethical. entertainment standpoint, it makes sense.

Sure. And I mean, like, there's a lot of badass women that are my working with, so it's not like I'm complaining, right? Right. But I think it's as people realized, like, you're not going to hire this one ref for a single, like, single or two matches on the show, right? Yeah.

You're going to give me, like, half the show the same way you give the other half the show, because it's better for your dollar. Of course. As a promoter. So for me, I'm like, you know, I'll just do whatever. And every match is different. Like, who knows what it is, right? I did an indie show this weekend that was like Orange Cassidy versus Sue Young, which was just hilarious.

And then immediately following that was Chris Dickinson and Tom Lawler in this like grappling shoot fight. So it's like to have that like immediate juxtaposition of matches, like even on a wrestling card. Yeah. But to like be able to work with all the different types of people. Like I think it's definitely like people don't necessarily think about that as much. I think that was an initial barrier thing. Like I heard a lot about that after double or not. because I did Sammy Gabara, Kip Sabian.

Yeah. And there were a lot of people online who are like, well, it doesn't really make sense that the woman's roughing a men's match. I'm like, well, it's just different. It's not something you've seen before. Yeah. It's like actually, you know, they've been doing this on WWE for a little bit. So it's just different.

And I think like, as a society, we see that happen. Like the first time we see something we're kind of like, huh, this is weird. And then eventually it becomes normal. Of course. I was very surprised to see that the first introduction you had to wrestling was WrestleMania 27. Yeah. That was just like historically.

one of like the worst WrestleMania. I was there. It was, it was, it was, it was Ms. and Sina

in the main event with the rock. With the rock and a fear. Yeah. And then that led up to WrestleMania 28. Yes.

Um, there was the, there was just a lot of like silly things that happened. But, obviously you'd been aware of wrestling, but you hadn't, like everyone knows wrestling exists,

right? Everyone's heard of Hulk Hogan, whether or not you've watched it. Sure. It's all right. Eat your Breiteman's brother. Like, uh,

but essentially that year was the one that Stone Cold on the Rock came back. And all of my friends to watch wrestling as kids. So they're like, we should have a WrestleMania party. So we set it up, like, the Super Bowl. We had, like, our, like, potluck food, like, chili chew dip. Yeah.

So I'm like, okay, this is great. We set up, like, prop bets. Yeah. Like, who's going to win, like, who's going to win like, who's going to win that? Like, I don't know. I'm just picking random things. Like, I literally knew nothing about wrestling.

Like, I'm going to do it. Like, I'm going to do it. This is a big thing. Yeah. And it was cool and interesting. And then I think that was the thing that got like my husband back into it. And he's watching for a little bit and this was April, right? And then May I come home from work one day and he's like, hey, I need you to watch this thing.

I'm like, what is it? And I watched the pipe bomb. And that was the thing that like really got me hooked because I hadn't realized at that point how crazy the amount of storytelling you can have within wrestling. Like what's real? What's not? where does reality bleed into story and then like the symbiotic relationship between the performers and the audience

which is unlike any other form of media like you don't have people in the movie theater clapping and then that kind of like changes the plot of what's happening right like that doesn't really happen anyone else like I did ballet for 20 years and like you just kind of sit in the theater and you watch and then you golf clap when you're done like that's it like I don't get to like suddenly like change what I'm doing

because the crowd's like ooh they're really hot on this thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, do more tondues. Like, it's not how it works. Tondu? What's a tondue? It's an extension of the foot. It's actually a pretty basic move. Is it like a plie?

Plier is also a very basic move. So, like, pleia and tondue are basic, like, your bread and butter. This is the only move I know. Yeah, it's a plie. Yeah. The grand pleiaeet. Yeah, there you go. But yeah.

So the pipe bomb got you into watching every week. All right, quick timeout for my chat with Ref Aubrey, because this episode of the podcast is brought to you buy Indochino. They were founded on the belief that you don't need to spend a fortune on a custom wardrobe. And for me, if I'm going to wear a suit, it's going to be custom made. Rick Flair style, baby. Indochino is the world's largest made-to-measure men'swear brand.

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That shipstation.com. Enter the offer code blue. It's shipstation.com where they make ship happen. Yeah, I started watching every week. And then as like guys like Daniel Bryan, who was probably like my original like favorite wrestler, I'm like watching him going, oh, okay, Google him a little bit. Oh, what is this indie wrestling? and then just suddenly diving down this huge rabbit hole.

Was it because he was from close to where you're from? No, I think it was just because I didn't know that there was an amateur level. Oh, okay. Yeah. I just knew that there was WWE, but it hadn't really dawned on me, like, where these performers were coming from. But then finding out, like, that's how I learned about Ring of Honor was watching Daniel Brian and CM Punk on TV. And then after that, you learn about Evolve and you learn about, like, New Japan.

It's like, oh, my God, wrestling's huge in other countries. Like, what is this? And then any time I see a guy on TV, like I read up on them and then find out like, oh, like at the time like Ricochet wasn't signed. Yeah. And then learning about like Ricochet and Will Osprey and all these other guys, like Zach Sabre Jr. So I went into it deep. Like I traveled to WrestleMania twice. Which ones?

I did 31 in San Jose. Yeah. Because it's not too far of a flight for me. And then I did 30, I think it was 32 in Dallas. Yep. By that point, I was like all in on the women. And I loved everything that they did in NXT. and I loved that they were given like prime spots on the roster.

So for me, that was like a huge thing to see. And then at the time, too, like, I was a big Cowboys fan. So I really wanted to see the stadium. So I was one of those people that waited outside in line for like five hours. Yeah, I was there too. It was insane. It was awful. It was so tough.

It was so hard. They were not prepared to have everyone going at the same time. It's like, oh, they were not ready for that. So at what point did you look at that and go, I can do that? So I hadn't really ever thought about like this is something I can. do. Kind of like I mentioned, I did dance for so long. So that was my thing. That's where I kind of focused on my performance aspect. And I got into the local indie wrestling scene in Seattle, which it kind of died for a bit, and it's really kind of had a resurgence. I found out

about this promotion, 3-2-1 battle and started going to that. And it's very, like, weird wrestling, like a little bit Chakara, a little bit of hood slam. It's an interesting show. It's very funny. And it was, like the coolest thing I'd ever seen because I didn't think you could have like a wrestling match and then all of a sudden go back in time in the middle of the wrestling match. If you've ever seen my video of like me and Sunny Kiss and the dance number. Yeah. It's from that show. Okay.

So it's like that's not the craziest thing I've done on that show if that tells you anything. So like we had gotten really into watching that and they started offering a school. So my husband's like, I have to do this or I'm going to regret it. Wow. Yeah, sure. I fully support you. Like you do your thing. I got my thing.

You just going to go to wrestling school? school? At what age is he going to wrestling school? Like 38? Wow. Yeah. He's DDP. Right. It's one of those, you can always try something, right?

Of course. Who knows how long you're going to do it or how far you're going to go, right? But it doesn't hurt to try. Of course. So I was just happy, like, going to the shows and supporting him and, like, making all these new friends with, like, his wrestler friends. And then right around May of 2017, I ended up leaving dance for a number of reasons. Big one is, like, my body was just broken. Like, it's super hard.

like my feet look nasty like it's it's just really hard on your body and your joints um and i'm in my early 30s that's about when dancers die anyway um not actually die no just like like we we go off to pasture i think they're like you become a dance teacher if you're going to stay in dance a little bit or a choreographer yeah um but then at that moment i didn't realize how important dance was to my like giving me an outlet to escape yeah like an identity too probably i got really depressed because i just didn't have anything that I was working towards performing. Like I wasn't on stage anymore. I didn't have that thing that was so important to me. And right around that same time, the ref team at three to one battle comes to me and says, well, we're looking for more refs and we know you have

a performance background. We all already know that you like know everyone in the locker room and you're cool with them. So you should just try it out. So I did and I really sucked. Like it's, did they just throw you in a match? We had like a tryout. Okay. So there was a couple practice matches that the wrestlers had set up, like there was two singles matches and a tag, I think all the guys, all the refs got. And like, I think the biggest thing that was crazy about it is you watch wrestling from the front, right? Yeah. So there's a lot of things that you can pick up on like facial expressions and like it just wrestling looks a very particular way. So all of a sudden, when you're standing behind the wrestlers, you lose a lot of stuff. So I'm just like, I have no

idea what they're doing. I have no idea what's going on. Like, oh my God, I'm in the way. what am I doing with my hands? Like I just looked weird, weird and awful and out of my element. I think I went home and cried. Like it was just like, it felt really weird. So why did you give it another try? I mean, like, you can try something once, but like that may not be the best representation of what it is.

And, you know, they told me like, you know, there's potential here. So you should try and train with us and see what happens. And I trained for two months. They put me on a show in July. And then two years and a couple months. later I'm here. Wow. Yeah, it's like it's all hard work, right? But that's the biggest thing. And I think that people need to realize this. Right. If you want to do something, there is a path to get there. Right. It's like you may not see what someone's putting in, but it's like I'm working shows every weekend. I'm going to the

gym a lot. Like I'm trying to eat better. I'm doing all the things that are necessary to reach this level. There's just so, so much to it more than just, you know, I'm standing in the ring yelling at people. There's all of this. Like I do more prepping to ref than I actually do ref, right? Like if you count like the amount of minutes I'm in a ring, like maybe it's like 30 per show tops, but it's like how much am I actually, like I went to the gym last night for an hour and a half. I did yoga this morning. Like I count both of those as like working towards reffing, right? Like injury prevention and being ready to be in ring with guys that are like massive, right? Like being able to protect myself. All of those things play into it. Well, I think with that said, I think people don't think that you'll be able to take

bumps being a woman reffing men's matches. They don't know how that's going to look. But then you look online, you've taken bumps all the time. Oh man, there was this great shot. It was a defy a while back where like Phoenix kicked me in the head to break up a pin. And like, I just fall like a fish. Yeah.

And it's like, I mean, like a little behind the curtain like it didn't hurt at all, right? Like we had talked about it. Like we knew exactly how I was going to hit. I had complete control of my body. But like when I first started refing, like I did rolls and bumps with all the wrestlers because I really feel it's important that you understand how to protect yourself in a ring.

Like, any time you step into a wrestling ring, even if you've talked about everything and you've planned everything, like, you're putting yourself at risk. And I feel it's the responsibility of the performer to like be fully prepared for that. I think I'm going to actually put that clip below because I watch that bump like 10 times in a row. Oh, yeah. Because the crowd reaction is the best part about it. Oh, yeah. No, like they got mega heat.

I don't think that they expected that. They're like, oh, yeah, we'll just kick it. It's just a rough bump. It's just a rough bump. I'm like, oh, guys, like, I'm pretty over here. Like, and then, like, I think Chris Ridgway is in the match. You just see his face like, yeah.

Like, he thought I died. We literally go through the curtain. He's like, are you okay. I thought you died. He's like, those are his words. I'm like, no, dude, I'm fine. I'm totally fine. Just like, oh, my God.

So it was like, it's a moment where all of the performance aspects go right. Sure. Where it all lines up perfectly. Yeah. And we're all in sync. And it just works. How about a moment where things, you know, didn't line up and maybe didn't work the way it was supposed to? You were in the ring for the now infamous chair shot.

Oh, my God. Sean Spears on Cody. Oh, my God. So I'm going to open this with. The young bucks have already admitted the chair was gimmick. Yeah. We had a, you know, a long discussion about it on our show about how the chair was supposed to work. They said it was supposed to be kind of like a cookie sheet.

Right. And I understand, like, there's that element of wrestling, like, what's a breaking k-fay, what's. not, but it's, it's 2019, right? Like, when someone is concerned about someone's head bleeding, like, they want to know, like, how bad it was this? It's like, well, we took the precautions necessary to protect the people. We wanted this storytelling moment, like, whoever approved it, I don't know, that's above my pay grade. But, you know, the chair was there. We had talked about it. I knew exactly, like, when I needed to step in front of Brandi. I knew when I needed to go to Cody. So I'm just, like, watching Sean waiting for him to leave. And then I look over at Cody,

probably the same time as Brandy and we're just like, oh, that's not supposed to happen. And I like go down and I was like, is he okay? And I think Brandy asked me if like I brought a blood packet out or something. I'm like, no, I think that's his head. So like it was totally not intentional. And part of that is like the head like lip just like caught him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he said he like had like 10 stitches but no concussion.

So luckily, you know, that's that's a really good outcome for, you know, a horrible, horrible accident, but accidents always happen in wrestling. Like not always, but they always have the potential to happen. Of course. So you have to be ready for that sort of thing. Yeah. Well, and that's what you guys do. You're prepared for that.

Yeah. And it's like you can't really practice for that, right? Like you can't practice that someone's going to blow out a knee in a match. Like, what do you do in that instance? It's like you just have to be a part of that team in that moment, right? Like my primary job as a referee is not to enforce the rules, actually make sure that everybody's saying safe. So that if someone's hurt, immediately assessing the situation,

communicating to the medical team how bad it is or like if everything's okay, just because like these are performers. And we want to make sure that they have a long career performing. AEWs invested in a lot of really good people. And we want to keep those people around for a long time, right? So how did the news happen or how did the news get delivered to you that you were going to work at the main event? Oh, God.

Championship match at Double or nothing. Oh, this is funny. So kind of reverse a little bit. So double or nothing, I was still on like a, like, per show contract at that point. I meant to say all out. Sorry. Right. All out.

All out. All out. We knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was all out in spirit. Yeah.

Yeah. All in two, whatever you want to call it. So back at double or nothing, I was still on a show, show to show contract. And everything had kind of happened. Like, I did the two matches there, and that was awesome. And then I'm walking around the back, and I see Cody. and he's like still covered in blood he's got his towel whatever

and I'm like hey man that match was dope he goes thanks you're doing the next one I'm like and it like I was just like hold on and I'm like going through the card in my head I'm like his next match is with Darby oh my God like

and I had worked with Darby a number of times because Darby's also from Seattle so at that point it was like okay this is great like I'm there's some comfort to this because one of these performers I know really really well like I know Darby's move set. I know all the crazy stuff that he does. I think I asked him before the show, like, how many coffin drops do you have? Like, it's not a do you have a coffin drop.

Of course. I know Darby. So then, like, Cody, Darby and I do that match. And it's honestly like my favorite match I've ever refed now. It's just, it's one of those moments where everything just went right. And the story we told or we intended to tell was exactly what we wanted to tell, right? So that night we went out to like celebrate a good show. And I think it was also Cody's birthday or whatever. And I'm just kind of sitting there, like, eating my fries or whatever, and I hear Cody talking to somebody like, yeah, do you see, do you see Aubrey? Like, she did really good, like, definitely like loud enough that I can hear. Like, hey, thanks, man, really appreciate it. He goes, yeah, you did great. That's why you're doing the Jericho match. I'm like,

whew! I'm like, hold up. Okay, this is crazy. This got really, really crazy, really fast. because I'm doing the math in my head I'm not even at two years that point yet I'm a week shy so I'm like this is insane I'm trying to remember does Jericho have a match at Fight for the Fallen right there's no way they're going to have me do the title oh they're having me do the title match this is nuts so like I seriously hit the gym and like

did a lot of cardio and a lot of like shoulder lifts because I knew that belt was super heavy so like that was like my like specific preparing because I mean like we've all watched Jericho right like I've seen how many Jericho matches Like I don't think there's really much I could really study out of that. It's like it's Chris freaking Jericho. Right.

So yeah, that was, I knew for a little bit and I was just kind of like, are they going to, like, are they really going to do this? Like, is this going to be a thing? And then show up at Chicago for All Out. We're like in line doing like medical stuff. And Cody's like, yeah, you know you're doing the main right. I'm like, yeah, man. I heard. Yeah, it's good.

And I'm like way more chill about it now. Less panic, like squealing. So yeah, that was how that happened. Did you plan out the spot where Jericho, or you getting Jericho's face? Yeah, I mean, we had talked about that, right? Like we wanted a moment to enforce like who he is as a character, who I am as an official. It also, you know, it's one of those moments that allows you to tell the story. So it was something that we had talked about, but like in the moment I didn't really know what I was going to say.

So I think the first thing I say is like, don't you talk to me that way, but he hadn't actually said anything yet. And that's how you can tell how nervous I am. Then I'm just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What are the first words out of my mouth? But nobody knows what you're saying. Oh, nobody knows what I'm saying. And I could hear him like. You can't hear what he's saying, right?

All it looks like is, bra-rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. I think I was actually loud enough that the cameras picked up on it. It was like, my coach texts me, and he's like, hey, so he didn't actually say anything even though you told me not to talk that way. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. He's like, you were really nervous. I thought you said something along the lines of, I'm the referee. I'm the official, like, don't treat me that way. Like, I eventually got there, which is very quick.

I think the first thing out of my mouth was like, this isn't right. But it served its purpose. It served his purpose. I mean, like, it got Jericho the heat he needed. For sure. I think, like, it put the focus on me the way that AEW wanted to. Like, it kind of goes back to that moment of, do we believe that women could actually the rough men's matches.

And I think that moment happening is like, oh, yeah. No, because, like, Jericho can't, like, get in my face, right? Because I literally can end this match. Yeah. If he pushes back too much. Right. So it just really solidifies what the official's role in is a wrestling, like, independent of gender, right?

Sure, of course. It solidifies what an official does in a match. Yeah. So if we take this, if we take this back a bit, it was your husband who started in the wrestling training that led into you doing this. Yeah. As your husband debuted? Oh, yeah.

He's actually, like, uh, tag champ at three model right now. Congratulations then. Yeah, I think it's like his third rain. Like they're pretty over. That's great. He wrestles as, um, is Dante Smyth. He's like an 80s parody of a goth guy.

He's a, this is my Legion of Gloom t-shirt. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's like I told you it was weird, right? Um, but yeah, it's like, no, he's, he's having a good time with it. Have you roughed his matches?

Oh, oh, all the time. Okay. Uh, I think they, they have me do it on purpose just to like see like, are they going to break? Like, but I've had a lot of fans come up to, me and go like wait you're you're married that guy it's like yeah you wouldn't know because we're both at work right sure like the moment we're in the ring like and that's um at three to one battle i'm girl hebner like that's where that name came from what a great name yeah so that was uh i was trying to come up with like a ref name and we had a guy named uh wario lopez at the time and he had like

the crinkly mustache like wario and it was yeah black and white stripes so it was like i need a name that's better than wario lopez and my husband was actually the one that came up with it or like getting coffee or whatever. He goes, you could be Girl Hebner. Like, well, discussion's over. Like, that's just too good. And it's like, it's G-E-A-R-L. Yeah, it's just literally Earl with a G.

So that was always funny because then when I heard that Earl Hebner was announced for AEW, I'm like, oh, we're going to brush this topic, aren't we? So what happened? So I get off the plane in Vegas. I go to the hotel and literally within like seconds of walking to the hotel, I see Earl Hibner and Justin Roberts. And Justin Roberts, who I've never met before, goes, well, look he here. And it's Justin Roberts voice.

Well, look he here. It's girl and Earl. And Earl O'Henner kind of looks at me, like, not really like realizing. Yeah, you're a girl. Yeah, you're a girl. Yeah, whatever. Because Earl doesn't know me. Like, who the hell am I, right?

Like, this is Earl Hebner. I'm just this little, like, two-year baby zebra. So we get to talking, like, we exchange pleasantries and stuff. They're having a conversation. We're just, like, you know, getting to know each other. like as co-workers now, right? And at one point, Justin looks at me and goes, so you're going to tell him?

And I look at Earl and Earl's like, tell me what? I'm like, my name on the Indies is Girl Hebner. And he goes, oh, that's funny. Oh, that's, how do you spell that? Like, G-E-A-R-L. Oh, that's good. Oh, that's clever. I like that.

And then we took a picture and it was super fun. By the end of the weekend, he was calling me G. Hebner. So I think he approves of the nickname. That's fantastic. Yeah, so could have gone completely differently. So I'm glad it was with the most positive route possible. Although, girl had, or sorry, baby zebra might be the best thing you've said in this whole interview. Oh, man, yeah.

I mean, like, roughs were always zebras, right? Yeah, but baby zebra. Oh, you mean, compared to the rest of the rest of the rest of the team, right? For a baby zebra. Well, that's the intimidating thing is I'm looking at all these guys that are getting announced. Like, Paul Turner's been with, like, Ring of Honor for how long. Like, he's got this incredible background, this television experience. Rick Knox is, like, one of my idols.

Like, I learned so much. him on the Indies, Bryce Remsberg, like, he's the friggin' goat. And then, like, I get announced, I'm like, hi. Like, all these guys have, like, over 15 years of experience, minimum, probably more. Like, I'm probably not even doing them justice. So, like, for me to be announced along with them in the same fashion, I was like, whoa, this is insane. And that was probably the thing that was the most coolest out of the gate was I'm just

treated like any other official. Like, I get announced the same, I get treated the same. As you should. As I should. I just spend more time in the makeup chair. Like that's really the only time. But honestly, though, that brings me to an interesting point. Like, how much makeup do you want to wear?

Because you want to be feminine, but at the same time want to be authoritative. Right. You know, there's this interesting balance. Right. So that's been kind of one of the things that I've been working with and trying to figure out the entirety of my career. Because referee is obviously a very masculine role, right? There's not a lot of ladies. So finding out how can I add my...

own little personal twist to it without taking away from the match, right? Like, so like I paint my nails every show and they match the color of the poster of the show that I'm on, which like, like, WrestleMania weekend I brought like 12 bottles of nail polish because I'm like literally in the New Jersey train like changing my nails. It's ridiculous. It was a really bad idea. I didn't plan out the long-term nature of that. So yeah, I've got red and blue today for the Washington DC show.

And then like I wanted to wear makeup because I'm a performer. I always wear makeup and dance because it looks better in pictures and it looks better on film. With all the lights, I don't want to look washed out. I want to have facial features that are present because that's how I tell a story. Like how I'm reacting to things. So the makeup is completely intentional, but at the same time, I'm like, how do I look a little bit more feminine? Well, it's like, well, the lady wrestlers are all wearing, you know, they got their fake eyelashes, they've got their lipstick and stuff.

I'm like, I can do that too. Like, I'm just kind of present myself the same way that they present themselves. and then like putting my hair back in a ponytail is like more of a functional thing just because like roughing with your hair and your face is a little difficult right like you can't really see anything you become like the girl from the ring I know she's oh my god and it's easy way for heels to like

you know cheek if I can't see because I got like a massive amount of hair with face but like I get my clothes tailored to like be a little bit more feminine cut so it's just little things like that and I think part of that is drawing the focus that you know I am a woman doing a traditionally masculine role so how does a woman present herself in that. It's an interesting place to be because it hasn't really been

done a lot before. Yeah. What do you think was the biggest tip that you were given from from going to the Indies to then going to shows that had TV cameras? Ooh, I mean, the biggest thing with TV cameras is to not like stand in the way of the roaming cameras. I'm sure those guys get a lot of like, I call them zebra butts where like they're just standing there and then like a ref stands directly in front of them and I'm like, I feel so sorry guys. Because I'm trying to keep track of the hard camera, the two Roman cameras, the photographers and the wrestlers all at the same time. And like, I do my best, but somebody ends up getting screwed.

Sure. But also, there's enough cameras, especially at a show like AEW, where if... They're going to catch the angle they want, right? Like, let's hope, right? I don't want to make anyone's job harder. I think that's really the big one. Like, a lot of the lessons that I learned from the Indies, like immediately

translated, right? Like, from a wrestling standpoint, it's just at a higher level with people who have been doing it for longer. But I think with, like, the cameras and the lights, like timing is everything, right? Like if you have two hours to broadcast, like you cannot have a match go over. Whereas I think like indie shows are notorious

for starting like 15 minutes late, right? Always. Yeah, so it's like, no, you gotta start on time, you gotta end on time, you gotta hit your times because we don't want the main event, like, not on TV. Because everything else went over earlier, right? I think they talked about that are all in.

Like the main event was supposed to go 25 minutes and it ended up going eight, just because everything else ran so long. So it's a thing that happens. So I think being more pushy about that, like, guys, we're literally running over. Like, I need you to finish this match. Yeah.

But how can you, how do you relay that to wrestlers without the cameras catching you being like, the match needs to end now, guys? Oh, man. So we'll talk about some secrets. But like, if I'm talking like submissions, I'm like, do you give, do you give? Guys, you got two minutes left.

It's a difference between like an inside voice and an outside voice. Like when you're in a library and you're whispering, versus like when you're yelling at somebody. Like when I'm yelling instructions, I want the people in the crowd to hear it. Of course. If possible,

like obviously not everyone in the crowd's going to hear it when you've got a big stadium. But I'm there to help enforce what's happening so the fans need to hear that too. They don't need to hear everything. Like a lot of times I'll go in and be like, dudes, that was awesome. You okay?

That bump looked gnarly. We'll have just full conversations. Like, hey, what are you doing after this, bro? It is surprisingly quiet. it in a wrestling ring. Like for... Until somebody bumps and then it's real loud. For sure.

But like with all the people that are around, it's surprising that like if we talked at this level... No one would hear. But we would hear each other. Which is amazing. Yeah, it's weird that like it's almost like there's these acoustics. Yeah. These walls that are invisible that just kind of keep the right noise in.

Yes. And then put the right noise out. I don't know. It's weird. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, it's a thing that takes practice. Yeah. If it's something that like, like I got to practice. to practice it in training. And there's a lot of places that I work that I worked on the

Indies where we had earpieces and ways to communicate, right? Oh, wow. And part of that is like being able to explain injuries to people like, oh, they're okay, you know, just give them some time to breathe, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But being able to communicate to people in the back because a lot of times, like, I'll have two-way. So it's an easy way for the people who need to know, like, how the talent's doing for me to communicate back to them. Right, right. Well, I think that you're a great story of setting a dream chasing after it. Just go.

And making it happen. Yeah, I want to learn how to swim. Just jump in the water. Seriously. Because there's a lot of people watching this right now that want to do what you do or want to do what I do or want to do whatever it is that they want to do. And they are afraid to take the first step. You just have to jump. Like it's scary. It's never not scary, right? Like I get nervous for every show. It's just when the nerves kick in and how nervous it is is different. I think the last couple shows like anytime like the plane lands in the city, I'm like, oh, God. But like this one, it hasn't hit me yet, but I'm sure once we get to the arena, it'll hit. But what about, like, taking it back 10 steps from there?

What if someone's watching this and wants to be a referee, male or female? I mean, like, find a wrestling school. Like, you don't necessarily need to be a wrestler first. Like, I didn't fully train to wrestle. I took bumps and I rolled, and, you know, I know kind of basic stuff, but, you know, I never wrestled. But my wrestling school offered ref training. Not a lot of wrestling schools do, but it's worth calling and asking. I think that most wrestling schools would bring in a ref because they have those matches all the time.

They do. You have practice matches in the middle of class. So it's like you're going to get those reps that you need to be on the show. And even then, it's great to learn to work with the talent that you'd be working on the show. There's guys I work with from like, okay, are you using this finish or this finish? Just because I work with them so much, right? Of course, sure, yeah. Like I said, like working with Darby, like, I know his moveset. I know what to expect.

It makes it a lot easier to play off of each other. when we have that trust built in. And that just comes from reps. Well, I'm so excited for you. Yay, I'm excited. Congratulations. Thank you. On everything.

Also, you know, today is the day of the show. So thank you for taking the time to do this. Yeah, no problem, man. It got me out of bed. It's not that early. It's pretty early for wrestling. All right times not until two. We did it at 10 a.m.

That's true. I did wake up. I had a nice breakfast. Me too. yoga. I did not see you at breakfast. No, I kind of like hid in the corner because I hadn't had coffee yet. So it was it, uh, you don't want to talk to me before coffee. It's not a pretty picture. There's a reason we did 10 a.m. I did you a favor. Thank you. But I'm super proud of you. I'm pumped for you and I can't wait to see where things go from here.

Thanks, man. I'm just excited to be here. Thank you. There you go, my friend. How fun was that? How fun? is Aubrey. A big thanks to Ref Aubrey for the great conversation. And yeah, ref Aubrey is where you can find her on social media. I am at Chris Van Fleet if for some reason you don't already follow me. If you want to know who I'm interviewing next and I get a lot of tweets and Instagram messages like, hey, who are you interviewing next? Well, the answer is, just look at my feed. I always post a story or I put it on Instagram exactly who I'm interviewing

next. So at Chris Van Fleet. And if you enjoyed this, please take a screenshot, a tag both Aubrey and I share her with a friend, let someone know about this interview and let's continue growing this thing. Isn't it crazy to think she's only been doing this for two years in this journey as a referee and now she's reffing the biggest match is Chris Jericho's asking for her to be the ref of her match. Man, the future is so, so bright here. And you definitely need to see the video to see that sick ref bump we talked about from Phoenix. It's sick. And And great, great that it looked good but didn't actually hurt it all. So you got to check that out. If you saw the YouTube video, you saw it the wrap up. I was in my hotel room getting ready for Dynamite that night. And I had my suit jacket there.

And because it's a custom suit jacket, you can put any monogramming on the inside that you want. So I have a quote in there from Tony Robbins that I think is really applicable to that night and just applicable to life in general. Decisions determine destiny. And it's not luck. It's not happenstance. It's the decisions in your life that lead to the things that happen in your life. Decisions determine destiny. And I appreciate you making the decision to listen to this. You're awesome. And if you're not already having a great week, but I'm sure you are. Have a great week.

If you are having a great week, have an even better one now. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. There was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video.

They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.