Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Shawn Michaels (BEST OF CVV) - Mr. WrestleMania, Legendary Matches, Classic Matches, NXT

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Shawn Michaels (@ShawnMichaels) is a retired professional wrestler, 2-time WWE Hall of Famer, and the Senior Vice President of Talent Development, Creative at NXT. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Las Vegas, NV in this interview from September 2025 to discuss the transition from wrestler to running NXT, what looks for in a young Superstar, the 2 defining eras of his in-ring career, his epic matches with the likes of The Undertaker, Ric Flair and Kurt Angle, whether he views himself as the greatest wrestler of all time, his thoughts on his return match at Crown Jewel, his mindset to become Mr. WrestleMania and more! Please support our sponsors: HELIX SLEEP: Flash sale! Go to https://helixsleep.com/cvv for 27% off sitewide! COZY EARTH: Go to https://cozyearth.com/CVV for up to 20% off! BEAM: Go to https://shopbeam.com/INSIGHT and use code INSIGHT for up to 40% off Beam’s Dream Powder DELETEME: Use the code INSIGHT to get 20% off your DeleteMe plan at https://joindeleteme.com/INSIGHT FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFF PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/cvv SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the PrizePicks app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 bonus credit in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup! For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGEMGEMP operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. Van Flee! You've had a lot of big wigs on, so... Yeah, I'm honored to be a part of it. I'm honored to have you on. So thank you for making this happen.

Yeah, you bet. Not a problem. What a career you've had. It's absolutely amazing. And what you're doing now, I feel like you're like really sinking your teeth into this. Where did this conversation even begin for what you're doing now in NXT? Well, I guess it depends on how far you want to go back.

I'll say this. And again, I was, I don't know, to be perfectly honest, way back in 1998, obviously, when I left wrestling and thought I was kind of done, you know, my wife and I talked about, again, and I had the Sean Michael's Wrestling Academy, which I started. And of course, I can remember not long after that, you know, obviously my life changing a great deal off of the positive and begin thinking about. you know, the giving back process of all of that and being able to maybe one day have this facility. Anyway, so you fast forward all these years later and, you know, it's not the way that I thought it would go, but sure enough, it ends up here I am. Again, in this, you know, wrestling environment and is in a way obviously giving back and, I don't know, and giving back in the thing that I'm, I don't know, that at least comes natural to me.

So anyway, but so that's part of it. That's, I guess, more of the spiritual side. But honestly, the, I can remember when Hunter talked about NXT and, you know, just asking me to come by one time. And, you know, I had been to a couple events while I was retired. And, but I was in Texas at the time. And again, thought it was fantastic. We went on a vacation to Florida, taking the family out there, and they just happened to, you know, be doing a television show and Hunter was in town and then come, you know, and wanted me to come down and see the performance center and be, you know, just come in and see what I think.

And when I walked through those doors, that feeling just sort of came back. And because I sort of, again, when I retired, just exited and wasn't around that environment. anymore. So when I came back in, it was just something that clearly was noticeable because when I went back to, again, the home we were renting and just, again, we rented a house for the, you know, for the week to go on vacation and stuff. And I came back and my wife said, obviously it went well. And I said, yeah, it did. What do you mean? And she said, I can, I can just see the luck. And so we just got into this big conversation about, again, that conversation that I told you about in 1990. And again, by that time, it was 1999 when she and I first met and talking about that stuff.

But and that's kind of the first time she revealed to me in all of my retirement. She said that, well, I was surprised that you walked away when you did. And how you just completely left it. She said, I always figured you'd go back and you'd do something with them, but when you said you were done, you were actually really done. And nobody was more surprised than I was. And so we just, again, had a very, you know, awesome conversation. My wife and I are, you know, we've lived our whole lives like that.

So our relationship started doing things that we feel, both feel and, you know, have this unbelievable impulse and what we call it, you know, it's a calling in our lives. And in a matter of probably three hours in this conversation, we had made the decision to go back to Texas, pack up in three weeks, and move our entire lives to Florida. And that's what we did. And you've been there almost 10 years now, right? Yes.

And I've been there almost a decade now, yeah. Every single NXT superstar that I sit across from or anyone that spent time in NXT, they all credit you for getting better. Not everybody who's great in the ring is able to be a great teacher. How are you able to be a great teacher? So I'll say this. I don't know if I,

I don't know if I am a great teacher. That was probably the most challenging thing about it when I, when I came in first as a coach. But I was very upfront with, with everybody that I, this is kind of my, you know, it's one thing to,

I don't know, to teach the basics. and share your experiences. So I think what helped me, I don't know, teach, was being able to connect with these people on such a personal level, a relationship level. And I don't know, I was kind of in their minds freshly out. I was still relevant.

And I think that's one of the things makes the difference. I can, you know, there are times now as the years go on, we always, you know, or at least I joke about it. And because I joke about it because it's true. I've been there now for 10 years. The athletes now, they're so used to seeing me, I no longer walk on water. Now I'm just the guy that kind of yells at the television and every now and then, like, you

know, again, gets in their face or tries to tell them this or that. I'm the boss here and there. And it's not quite the same. the things that I say may not always carry the weight that it once did at the beginning from a coaching level, but it is something that most of them, once they go up to the main roster, and now they experience some of those things that I was talking about, that's when it connects. So now a lot of the teaching isn't right there in the moment. It's a couple months or a year down the road.

And then they walked back in the Performance Center and said, ABC, indeed, this happened. and that's exactly what you talked about. Are you telling me there might be people that are coming up through the system that have never seen a Sean Michael's match? Yeah, exactly. That's absolutely some of it. Well, look, and look, some of them now with some of our athletes, yeah, I think there are a lot that may not even know who I am or what I did.

Well, that's silly. Well, look, I think they probably, I don't know. That would, that's, that is a guess on my part. Everybody. We've had some. Certainly when they come to try. At bare minimum, they know your theme song. Yeah, for sure.

Well, that's, yeah, who else. I'm very thankful that it'll be. Yeah, the theme song always works. I connect with everybody. You're not their boy toy toy. Still one of the greatest, yeah, still one of the greatest songs ever, if you ask me, and something that we were talking about it the other day. I'm one of the few guys that's never changed his theme song, and I never will.

It's so good. Yeah. And at 60, it's hilarious to me that we're still doing it. But that's the thing. I feel like HBK, that, character. Even at 60, you can get away with it, which is, I don't know, that's one of things I'm most proud of because, again, nobody takes me, uh, you know, or that character that's seriously now. Um, and that was part of, you know, who he was. My favorite line

from your theme song will always be hands off the merchandise. Well, again, I give Jimmy Hart so much credit for that. Um, when it first came out, I can remember hearing it and thinking like, Oh, geez. When you go singles and you pitch yourself as a single star, you kind of see yourself. Everybody sees himself more as the action hero guy. Kevin Ash always describes it as the guy that's flying the helicopter with a cigar in his mouth. And the M-16 in his hand and the girl under his arm, you know, doing everything cool.

And my character obviously was not really close to any of that. but then as I began to, you know, I got with Sherry and then began to embrace it and then just be able to find out who this was and the boy toy stuff that was in the song was so helpful in that and helping me find out, you know, who it would be and who HBK would eventually become. And so Jimmy Hart and that song deserve so much credit for everything that I accomplished because it was the tool that I used to find that character. Do you remember the day being in the studio actually singing those lyrics? I do.

And I just remember bits and pieces of it and just talking with Jimmy and telling him, I really, I don't have a good voice. My voice is so deep. And I can't, I don't know, I can't get high pitches. And even the, you know, the screaming at the beginning. Is that you? No, God no. No, for heaven's sake.

But it was just, I just, I don't even have really levels when it comes to singing. And so, I don't know. I was just very, and I was self-conscious anyway, but, and he just, he was great. He just said, don't worry about it. We'll make you sound great, baby. And so, and, you know, I think they did whatever it is they do. And they don't have, obviously quite, they didn't have at that time, all the wonderful bells and whistles they have now. So, but yeah, they did it, they did a great job.

And it was just such a, it was sort of icing on the cake when it goes from Sherry singing it to me singing it. I don't know. Again, just that whole process. It's so ludicrous, all of it. And I think that's what makes it, you know, so special. Did you look at the lyrics and go, I'm not your point. It was just, that's what I'm saying. It was just so ludicrous.

And it wasn't even, like I said, I just, I can't express it enough. It was just not really where I saw. myself going. And I don't know. It was, I felt I could be more of who I maybe was later on when I was 35, 36, again, with a little bit of grit. And with, again, with the cooler looking cowboy hat, but it was, again, a little bit more of grit and toughness to him. But that was, at that time, that just wasn't something I think I was going to pull off. And I don't know, it was just so unique and different because once I heard that song, that's when I began to then think about, okay, I'm going to do this. Who are two people that I can think of that I can connect with

on that level that are this type of showman? And it was, it was Freddie Mercury and Elvis. And that, Those were the two people that I began to focus on. And I don't know. And that's what really got me to the point to where I could be comfortable out there. Because I can't dance a lick. I can't sing. Even though I was playing this character, I had no game, as the kids say. Really, when it came to girls and stuff like that, it was very shy.

All of that character is 100% based on a bunch of BS that I've never actually really had. And in fact, a person that I spent the majority of my life in one hand to kind of wish you were, but I was never able to really pull that off in real life. And so it just gave me a, I don't know, this place to be able to jump into to be this person that was, I don't know, so unbelievably obnoxious and cool it into himself that, I don't know, and comfortable in his own skin because I wasn't at that time. Nobody had ring gear like you in the 90s. Was that all just part of like these influences that you were talking about it was that and Randy savage i can remember uh you know talking to macho man one time and Randy again it was just more about as i was going singles

was more about kind of asking him about his you know his gear and the person that made his gear and mach was very very sheltered in that he had his person and there was no way he was coming off that information, but he just mentioned that he just had to, you know, he wanted to have something new and fresh all the time. It was still based around, again, the cowboy hat and his boots and stuff like that, but he had a different look all the time. And that's something that I took forward with me. Because I could see people doing, you could have the one consistent sort of character-based look that you wanted. But again, I just felt at that time, I was not somebody. I had to make sure I had everything.

I did not feel at that time if I had any hole in my game, that was going to give them a reason not to use me or not to go with me. So I didn't have the luxury of not checking every box possible because I was already somebody that wasn't really, I'm not one that they're looking to kind of go with. You have all of this knowledge from decades of doing what you did. in the ring. And now what you're doing in NXT, how are you able to distill this down to people in the simplest way? Like, where does that begin? Well, it's me meeting them where they're at.

And I will say that's something that, and I apologize for probably not answering your question the last time, but on the coaching aspect, I try to meet them where they're at. One of my biggest challenges, I recognize that now I do the unbelievable gift that I was given to be able to do this stuff. So much of it came natural to me. So much of it I didn't have to try to find or to do. I also had the luxury of breaking in at a time when there were so many awesome guys in the territory days that were there for me when I was young to pass down all this knowledge. and they did it to me early, and I started working early to apply or listen to everything that they were saying. But it's more about meeting them where they're at and finding out what's the best way I can convey what it is I'm looking to get across to them.

And a lot of it, I have to be careful of not going too far down the road. they're not going to understand a lot of things like psychology. Also, for instance, we just found out recently, again, we're out doing live events now. But now not just the Florida loop because we've done those for, you know, as long as, you know, I can remember. But now we're back out doing live events in different cities and different towns. This is some of our town's first time ever getting out of the state of Florida with the exception of PLEs, which, again, are their own sort of aspect. and live events.

So we always talk about this. There's TV, there's live events, there's PLEs. They're all kind of different. And all those performances have to be different. And this feel and so many things that we say that they haven't had the opportunity to really experience because we're in the performance center on a regular basis. And that audience is an audience that is sort of they're playing their part

on television and doing their role, which they do in a, in a group. great way more often than not. But so the reception that they get in a, I don't know, Charleston, you know, or, you know, an Augusta, Georgia and another place, they're all three different. And this last time on the road, they all experienced that. And it was something that threw them all off. And they didn't really understand it because so many of the things that they do all the time didn't work. And so those are aspects that once they experience that,

I can now begin to, you know, associate with them on a level that we haven't been able to do it before. If you were watching Backlash, you might have seen a face that you recognize sitting behind Michael Cole and Wade Barrett. Not only did I have those awesome seats, I also got an impromptu interview with the Miz and Kit Wilson. Check it out on my Instagram.

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Make sure to click the link in the description to download the app and that code will automatically be applied to your account so you can use it later. Big shout out to Seekkeek for sponsoring this episode. Hey there, I'm Paula Pan. I help people make the smartest money decisions possible. If you don't control your money, it controls you. Yeah, if you're not in control of your finances, you have to look outside of yourself to live the life that you want. You're not in control. You're like, like, what is it that you

actually want? Money should follow the dreams and goals because sometimes we make the dream and goal the money and you've overworked yourself and you've exceeded what you've needed for the actual thing you want. Sometimes we forget, like, what's the actual thing you want? Afford anything. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. So much of pro wrestling is teachable, but then there's a whole other aspect that it's just intangibles. So what are some of the intangibles that someone Either they have it or they don't. It's not teachable. I think when we talk about feel, those are things that and timing. Timing and feel are probably, in my opinion, the two most important things in this business.

You can get by with so much more if you have those two aspects. You can be a little short in athleticism. You can be a little short in psychology. You can be a little short in, I don't know, overall knowledge of the game, so to speak, if you have timing and a real feel. Because those are things that, I don't know, and, you know, I guess charisma plays a part in that. But if you have timing and feel, I feel like the charisma and all the other is going to sort

of match that timing and feel. That makes sense. I know sometimes when I talk about that, there's, uh, I know I don't always make sense to, to a lot of people, but I guess that's the level that, but I feel like I'm, I think what's fascinating about it is like some of this stuff must come so easy to you that it's probably difficult for you to articulate it because natural for you, but you're trying to find the words to say it and maybe it's not the easiest thing to do. Well, and then again, and that goes back to where I, that's where I was challenged as a coach.

Sure. Because so much of it was natural. And so when I was able, and I don't get, this is the biggest thing. get the opportunity now in this role to do what I did with the talent before when I was coaching, which is sit there and watch a match and be able to tell them, okay, now we've watched it. I'm going to give you a couple thoughts and tips and advice. Now I want us to go back and watch it again, but now we're going to watch it with our eyes closed. And I just want you to listen to the crowd.

And because again, we always talk about listening to them and feel. and I know very well they say they understand, but I know that they don't. Because unless you sit there and you close your eyes and you just do nothing but listen to the crowd, you know, that's when you can begin to feel them going up. You can feel having them and not having them. And that doesn't mean they have to be making a lot of noise. They can be making no noise that you can still feel a buzz in the building. building, and that means you have them. And they have to physically feel those things. And while they're

out there in the moment, they just can't manage to do it, I don't think. And so that's one of the sort of things that were, you know, whatever drills that I went through when I was coaching that I had this time to do that helped the light go on for many of them. And so, and I don't know how many people, again, That takes a long time to try to convey to people and try to get them to feel it and understand that. And I don't know how many opportunities they get at that. How long did it take you to learn that skill? Well, look, it's something you never stop learning. I think you just get better at it as you go.

I will say this. I felt like I was pretty darn good at this stuff. at about, again, I'm going to say two and a half years, but not at a high level, if that makes sense. You had everything that I needed. Yeah, at a very good understanding of it all at two and a half years, I think. And then it was just really, again, getting better on all of those aspects of it. And then you get to the point where you say you're good.

oh, now I've really got a handle on this than five years later, you say to yourself, I thought I did then, but now I do. Then the third time you do it, you realize, okay, there's no end to this. I'm just going to be able to get better at this. And every time I think I know something, I recognize there's more to learn. And the aspect of never, you never stop learning in this is the reality. Did you have an inkling two and a half years in? if I keep working at this and if I keep improving and getting better, I could be one of the greatest

of all time. No. No, that was, again, that's something that, you know, again, you'll regurgitate out of your mouth. But it wasn't for me until I think 1995 that I felt like I had a real chance to be a main event type of individual. It wasn't until 1995. And I guess, I don't know, that was at a decade in. So we're talking right after WrestleMania 10? Honestly, that was the first time.

That was the first time that I really felt like, holy, I can do this stuff. And there's a landscape now in the WWE that I can see the possibility of that happening. How much of this was just raw talent and how much of it was just you working at it? it and putting the time in. So, as I mentioned, I knew that I had a gift. But the one thing, again, for all of my faults, for which there were many, as we know, there was never a time when I didn't work at it. And that also came natural and easy for me.

So I think it's a combination of the of the two. I've always when, especially when it comes to this line of work, I was always a hard worker. Who instilled that in you? I don't know. I think probably, I think probably my dad, obviously. But again, I just,

I really wanted to be good at it. And then once you have that realization, that, holy cow, I could really be good. And then it's able to get bigger than that. It's very easy to just, then you just, again, I go back to, I was driven already on the road, you know, again, to getting to 1995. And at 1995, when I really felt there was a real possibility, it was really easy to just go and really, you know, work at it.

None of it was hard. None of it felt like it was laborious to me. I enjoyed it. So those are the things. And again, like I said, that came from my father, which was him telling me if you can make a living, that's something you enjoy. You'll be so much better than so many of the people out there.

I didn't know, however, that if, you know, you can actually really love what you do. And that drives you to, again, to be, I don't know, at least overly passionate about it and, you know, and gives you the ability, if you have that mindset. And I think that's what more than anything, again, you've probably read the, whatever, the book, greatness or at least no of it. But that's something that I think it's just either in you or it isn't.

A lot of people aspire to it. But it's, again, it's something that, because again, I don't know that I'm great at my job now. by any stretch. But I still apply that same aspect. I still have to recognize that other people aren't like that. Taking a day off is absolutely natural to them and something they believe that they should do, which, again, they should. I've just, there's, I'll take days off, but there's never a time when this isn't going. And it's always about this job and aspects of it and getting better and growing.

We have success in NXC. Everything's going well. None of it's good enough for me. And what would good enough look like? I have absolutely no idea. I'll say this. For me, NXT has been something that has, that I mean this in a good way, but I I don't know that it's been an actual revenue driver for the WW.

It's been an investment and a solid one and a great one. I would love for it to be able to be both. I think if there was any goal that I would want to, is that NXT is not over, not only providing the future of the WWE, but it's also something that makes the WWE a profit. And I don't know if it's ever done that. I would have to think with this new deal with the CW, that's where it shifted over to being profitable.

I'd have to think that. I think that it is or it's pretty close, but those are aspects that I don't, I don't know. I couldn't honestly say because that's a bunch of numbers. And that would probably be a Nick and Hunter answer. But even then, and then we're talking, again, then it's because there's kind of two worlds of, okay, now it's, even if we achieve that, it's going to move on to something else. And then it's why I want to be, you know, I have this idea from numbers and stuff like that that I would like to get to, whether it's television, whether it's live events, whether it's PLEs,

and it being a real official third brand. And I know that it certainly is in many aspects, but I want it to be a third brand like the NCAA. Again, that something is an extremely successful, you know, aspect of the WWE. You seem to speak about this with the same passion that you speak about with your in-ring career. Like, the same passion is there. It's like you were able to transfer what you had there and, like, that focus over here. Not everybody has a career after wrestling that looks like that. Yeah.

Well, again, and that goes all the way back to Hunter inviting me to come the first time. And again, one of those things that it's funny because the two people in the world that know me the best are my wife and Hunter. And yes, I get the jokes that everybody throws between the two of us. But he just said, I just needed you to come in and stick your foot in. And I figured the rest would take care of itself. And my wife says, no, he did the slow boil. you. You know what I mean? He put you in the pot and then before you knew it, you know, you were in there boiling and she said, and that's what, that's what, that's what, you know, that's who

you are. And so, and it is. And, and that's what I, I, this is, I was built to be doing this. I have, again, we all are given gifts and purposes in our lives. I 100% truly believe that I've found mine. And I do. I does like that. I, you know, I love it. And I'm, fortunate. And again, I know one of them sitting over there, but, you know, our head writer and Matt Bloom are two people that they go about their jobs the same way. So I have like-minded people that, again, we live it all the time and we don't really take days off. Yes, we have lots of people around us that aren't always the same. But if I just have a couple like-minded people around me, And I know that I work for guys that are like-minded.

I know Hunter's the same way. I know Nick is the same way. And that's what makes it so fun. That's what makes it a blast. We're all like-minded in that respect. And I don't know. And it's an awesome thing. I get to wear a suit.

I kind of look classy. I don't look like the trailer park trash that I really am. And so, but I get to do a job that I really, really dig. and it makes the lives of a lot of young people, I don't know, so much better. And it's just got so many rewarding aspects to it. And yes, I guess some of them can be self-absorbed at the same time, I guess. But I don't know, there's just so many upsides to it.

I can't see, I don't know, that much downside. And so who wouldn't want to be a part of something like that? Well, look at this wrestling epicenter. that has now been created in Orlando. Because it's not just the PC, it's not just NXT, it's also evolve and LFG and all the NIL talent and the collegiate athletes that are coming through there. TNA has a lot of stuff going on there.

Something has changed in Orlando over the last 10-ish years and when people think about pro wrestling, Orlando's the place. Yeah, well, and again, that is the brainchild of Triple H, and, And it was just, it was a fantastic idea. And look, there are times I can kick myself for not jumping in on the ground floor.

But I think I needed my time away and I needed my time away with my family and just kind of a rest from the wrestling business. But what he built and what he began there was something that was, I don't know, I guess in some, respect, people go, it's not like some kind of crazy genius idea, but more than anything else, it's the culture. It's the environment there that he instilled in that place. And to be perfectly honest, one, as everybody knows, this was not my goal to be in this role, but it was just to continue to help, you know, grow the performance center and continues to build on that culture because it was so unbelievably positive. That was the thing

that was really, you know, sort of the nail in the coffin for me, which was who doesn't want to be around this very positive atmosphere and this positive atmosphere that's going to hopefully one day resonate in the WWE and be a culture that's very different than the one that we all grew up in. And again, that's not to say it was unbelievably horrific because we're all living incredibly blessed lives, but it was very different and it was harder and it was rougher. And it wasn't as, I don't know, compassionate and understanding. It wasn't where it needed to be. And the WWE has come to such a place in, I don't know, the American, you know, I mean, We are, again, I guess, sure we're not the NFL yet, I guess.

But it's in the cultural zeitguest. It is, you know, it is a part of, you know, of who we are. It's been a part of, I don't run across anybody that doesn't have an experience with the WWE at some point in their life. And that's really, really cool to be a part of something like that. Yeah. How many kids have said suck it because of you? Yeah.

Yes, and ruining and, yeah, screwing up a generation. And I get to take credit for some of that. my own included. But so anyway, yeah, there's, so it was hard not to want to be a part of that. And more importantly, though, but it's to continue to build on that culture, continue to give back to the business in a real positive way. And that is something, again, so when it comes to, again, evolve where we're reaching out now to the independent wrestlers that are out there.

We know how tough that scene can be. And we at least want to, the ones that we see real promising, we at least want to, to help. and at least let them know like, hey, we see you, and there's an interest that you can continue to build on, you know, we don't have the money right now to be able to get you in on a full-time basis, but we can help you continue to build and learn on your craft, knowing that we've got an eye on you. And when that time comes, you know, you can make that jump to being in Orlando on a full-time basis. LFG, which is something that, again, I don't know, you know, with that, it's certainly it's a, It's a little bit of a glimpse at what it is we do there in the performance center, but it's an hour show and it doesn't have the ability to be as thorough as we are there, you know, in Orlando.

And then, of course, NXT and I don't know, in the crossover with AAA and TNA, as you mentioned, we just want to make, yes, the WWE is the global juggernaut that it is. And we always want that to be the case. I guess I'm not going to at least try to sit here and BS everybody about that. We are absolutely number one, and we want to stay that way. But we also want to become, again, more ingrained, I don't know, in that same culture that we're talking about from an American, and not just from an American standpoint, but a global standpoint. But we also want to grow this industry as a whole.

And if it's a partnership with AAA or with TNA and reaching out to some, of these independent people, we're going to do that. And that's something that's unlike what the WW is done in the past. And so I'm honored to be a part of that. And again, to try to help a number of people, you know, do the same stuff that I got to do, but be able to do it on a global level. It's clearly what everybody wants when everything's said and done.

Square up. You know, what's going on, man? It's Andrebertoe, two-time world champion. You know, I fought. I loved it. I really wanted to do that. sit down from a fighter's perspective. My jeep.

What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? Now you got a chance to really draw in your audience to let them see who you are. I've had to have a lot of internal talks to say, do I even want to carry on? But it's fighters, we know what time it is. I think the time is now. Square up.

Follow and listen on your favorite platform. Let's go. When I look at your career in the ring, it reminds me a little bit of Kobe Bryant. He had a Hall of Fame career, his eight Hall of Fame careers. 24. You had a Hall of Fame career up to 1998, Hall of Fame career from 2002 on. How do you look at those two different eras of HBK? Well, sure, before and after. One, from a personal standpoint, obviously we see that we know the difference and we know whatever it is you want to call it, for the back injury, after the back injury, you know, before saved, after saved, whichever way.

Troublemaker, much easier to deal with. Honor to have had both and both serve their purposes, certainly in my life. I always tell people, of course, I would love to go back and to have had the opportunity to do the first part different. However, I don't know, I'd be lying, I guess, if I didn't say that I don't know where I'd be at today if I didn't go through that. And I don't know that I'd, I don't know how, I don't know how successful I'd have become had I not been that way. I was just so, yes, a lot of it people look at as very negative. But I didn't think I had any other chance if I didn't push that way. Probably overly paranoid, I don't know.

Whatever you just want to call it. I just didn't think I had the luxury of what everybody else did. And I don't know that that's fair. So don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify anything that I didn't. Because you weren't as big? Sure. I think, sure, everything stems from that.

Everything stems from an insecurity within myself about who I was. None of it had to do with the ability. Because look, a lot of times in this job, especially when you're young, you say, I'm good enough. We make applications to this line of work like you do in football or basketball. If I can do A, B, C, and D, I ought to be the highest paid. I ought to be able to do this. I'd have to be able to do that.

Our job isn't like that because it's not what those are. And it was very hard to get that through my incredibly thick skull at that time in my life. I think on paper I was better than 99.9% of the people that were in the wrestling ring. That's irrelevant. You know, it's not totally irrelevant and know it, not like it doesn't mean anything. But it, you know, again, whatever it is you want to say. Again, like there are a lot of people that get a kick out of saying, you didn't draw money, he didn't do this, he didn't do that. I can't argue with that.

Didn't you main event five WrestleMania? I did. But you can also say I made more money after I came back and drew more money after. I don't know. And again, like I said, there's all sorts of caveats. And that's one of those things again in that book. You know, greatness is very kind of, you know, the times, you know, fads, trends, different times. Who's the best basketball player of all time?

Is it LeBron James or is it Michael Jordan? If I ask somebody that's under 30, they're going to tell me it's LeBron James. You ask me and I'm going to tell you that it is Michael Jordan. And nobody will ever convince me differently. But it's never going to get proven. And same with mine. It's never going to get proven. And I can probably tell you, I don't know how much now Michael Jordan or LeBron James

cares about that. I know Sean Michaels doesn't. I'm honored to be in the conversation. Who cares after that? But if you'd have asked me that at 28, the answer would be totally different. It would mean a lot to me. And that was the biggest difference, again.

And it was. It was more about perspective and getting my priorities straight and understanding that there are things that are bigger than this line of work. And how can I be great at all of them? or at least have the mindset of being great at all of them, but doing them in a way that I can also be proud of doing them. And I think that was the biggest part of the change.

Do you think when you look at somebody else's career as a whole, that there's anybody who's objectively better than you were? Yeah, well, look, I don't know. I guess I would say that I know that I thoroughly love being in there with so many of them, I think, because ours is kind of a joint aspect. And so I don't know. I had great chemistry with so many people, but I think I had great matches with Angle. I had great matches with Hunter, had great matches with Taker, had great matches with Jericho. Heck, I had great matches with Jeff Jarrett, numerous other people. And I'm sure I'm forgetting some people.

What about Brett? Yeah, I had great matches with Brett. You know, but again, I don't know. I just, I can't express it enough in that none of those things are really relevant. I think I was great at what I did. And I think other people were great at what they did as well. They're just different in so many ways. And again, it's, you know, greatness is more a mindset, I think, than anything else. And I don't, if you, if you have that for your goal, I think it's incredibly productive.

And I think it's incredibly positive. but if it's something that, you know, I don't know, you base every aspect of your being around it, certainly for me at one time, it wasn't a healthy thing for me to do until I was able to do it in a way that I began to apply it to every aspect of my life, whether I achieved it or not. I think everybody knows you've got to turn it out for WrestleMania, but nobody put it into another gear like you. You're Mr. WrestleMania for a reason. How were you able to, to flip it into that gear in a way that nobody else was able to? I would imagine it's probably because that was the one.

All of them, I gave a lot of thought to, insight to work on this WrestleMania aspect bordered on probably a pretty close, dangerous obsession. It was something that even, again, when I got myself together, I always comment that, yeah, my family knew that about three days away, I would just go into this other place, this other mind space. And they always wondered, like, why do you bring us? Why do you bring us when come Friday night, you just tune out? And, you know, and I had to explain to them, it's just your presence. I just need, I like having you there. I want to, you know, I don't have to be talking and engaging with.

you but having you there I can feel you and that makes a difference. And but because there of times I've and I've never sort of called anybody out because I there are so many people that whether, you know, they go on a podcast, oh, we just called it out there. Oh, we just did this. We just said it up here. Oh, we just kind of did this. We went on.

It might have been for them. Not for me. I went over every little thing, went over every possible scenario. and over every aspect of could happen might happen if it does happen. For every match or just WrestleMania? For everything. Well, yes, especially for WrestleMania. And that's what I'm saying.

That was the difference between WrestleMania and the other ones was the amount that I would do that. You sort of go TV, PLE, and then WrestleMania. And there are just different levels that I would have of application of, again, bordering on obsession. And WrestleMania was clearly something that I was weeks in advance going through, thinking about. And again, I've told the story with Rick where, again, it was, you know, many days out. That might have been a week out and waking up in the middle of the night and just having this, you know, whatever you want to call it, flow of consciousness about the end of the match.

And this, again, what it ended up being. And I was writing it down and coming to the end and again, it's like it's stuff that sounds like it's a movie scene and the little tear drops on the paper and I'm like, oh my goodness. And I see that. And I think to myself like, oh, I don't know if this is great or if it's, I'm the biggest wuss in the world. You know, who thinks about pro wrestling like that?

But the easy answer was I do. I do. And I don't know. And I did when I was a kid. And then as a grown man, I was at a place in my life to where I was able to sit back and see this picture. And I was able to talk to my buddy in high school who, again, was another. a person and he's just sharing with me like, gosh, would you have ever imagined when you and I were sitting there at my parents' house watching Rick Flair on championship wrestling,

I'm the next boy, that you'd now be having his last match at WrestleMania. And those types of things and being able to put that in perspective. And so all those thoughts in my head and trying to go to sleep and then all of a sudden this comes of it. And again, it turns out to be a love story. How can you not be romantic about pro wrestling? Well, that's, it is. And that's what it was trying to prove.

And thank goodness again, there was a movie, you know, that you can, you know, same thing about baseball. But for me, it was pro wrestling. And it was my hope that it wasn't just mine. And thankfully, again, it did. Thankfully, it moved Rick and it moved Michael Hayes enough for them to go like, you know, it's, but it's also the production there. Like the camera cuts to you at the. The exact moment.

I'm sorry, I love you. Wide shot, sweet chin music. And him, and him. But it was real that day. And it was real that week for Rick. Because he was, he was, he was, weeping the entire time and almost the entire match. But especially at that part, he knew it was the end.

You know, he knew it was the end of the match. And I know people, again, they'll even say, oh, you're going to wrestle again. Not at that moment. not at that moment. Everybody was so invested in that because for that moment in time to us, it was real.

And that's what's the difference between, again, you go back to all the way to maybe to your first question and that is about the teaching and the coaching. Those are some of the things. I don't know.

Only the talent of today or the talent of tomorrow that when they come up, I don't know how many of those things will be real for them. I don't know how many of those things will be real for them. I don't know how. how many of them will have this love affair with what we do like we did.

I say my generation or that I do. But that's not, again, that's not for me to decide. I still teach or convey or coach, run, whatever word it is to describes what it is I do. I still do it with that aspect in mind. And I still have moments. I was fortunate to have one just the other day with Trick Williams. to where we meet on a very human level. And I'm able to step outside of the boss and all that.

And it's just, you know, Michael Hickenbottom talking with, you know, metric belton and about things that are bigger than this business. And hoping that that will move him in a way that helps him in his career. So, I don't know. Again, as with everything, I do it with every ounce of, my being in the best way that I know how and that match that night with the age just like with taker were the ones that you know all of you know all of your heart you know the fullness of your heart was into it and it's hard not to not you know it's just

hard for it not to go well i'm glad you brought that up because i don't know if anybody had a better three-year WrestleMania run 24 25 26 Rick flare Undertaker Undertaker Undertaker. Three amazing matches. Which one of those meant the most to you? I always, so I guess the political answers, they all mean a lot for different reasons. But if I'm to be objective, I think it's 25, the one in Houston, because that's the one that everybody talks about. That's the one that gave me the ability to say, I think I'm ready to walk away. It's time. That was the one that felt so good to me that I could look across the, again, the car to my wife and go,

that might be the one I needed to end it on. And she, you're like, seriously? And I said, yeah, I just felt complete after that one. knowing full well there probably has to be another one but that was when I knew it was time to start I don't know I don't think about it talk about it and be good with it I mean that and and that's the I didn't know it at the time but that's the biggest aspect of it that's why that match is special in a different way I knew not only that it was I was coming to to the end, but there was such peace with it. And no matter how it was going to happen,

that peace was going to continue. Because that's the part that's hard for everybody. I've watched so many people. And I think that's what I'm most thankful for. It wasn't difficult for me, and it never has been. How'd you know it was time to say goodbye? I don't know. Again, just that match was just, I don't know, it was, maybe it was the culmination of, that match with Rick and then it's going on to the, and at that time I didn't know it was going to be Taker again, of course. I don't know. I just, I felt whole after that.

There was just, there didn't feel like there was anything left to do. What more do you do except more of the same? And again, I guess that's fine. But then you're doing it for so many other reasons. And none of those have been why I've ever done this. even in my worst when I was complaining and bitching about money or spots or places and titles and anything. It was still never really about the financial side of it. It was more about the work of art I was doing.

Again, I don't know that I conceptually knew that at the time, but as I got older, it was just more about, I don't know, knowing what this, finished picture look like. And at the end of that match, I felt so comfortable with where it was. I felt like the only thing left really was to, I don't know, sign your name on it. That's why that again, that's why it drives everybody nuts, it's why that last one whatever in Saudi doesn't, doesn't do anything, doesn't have an effect on me one way, shape, or form.

Do you still consider that match at Crown Jewel, your last match, or is it the one with Undertaker or 20? Yeah, it's that one with Undertaker, because that, again, the other one, the other one, I don't know, it was a tag match, it was DX. And I don't, and I, I feel kind of bad because I don't mean it in a, in a negative way. But that was just sort of like, I don't know, it was like kiss going out and not even with, you know, the original members or whatever, and playing a, playing a concert at the Trubidor or something. And it's like, oh, I thought they, but they're not really retired.

And I know KISS has never retired. But, you know, I don't know, that just felt like a, I don't know, like a special separate one-off, you know, HPK and Mr. WrestleMania, the showstop or whatever, that was with, ended with Taker at WrestleMania. And then, and because I still came back and refreed the match between, you know, Hunter and Taker. And again, and we'll always play a role in the WWE.

I don't know. I mean, what it would count if I went into the Rumbra. this year or something. Don't get me wrong. Are you going to? Oh, heavens. No. Probably should have said that.

I was just using that as an example. Here we go. I was just, I don't consider that. I don't know. I don't consider those a match. You know, a single performance by me, by HBK, by that guy. That's not who that was.

That was a dude hanging out with his buddies. I don't know. And having a match, that's, I don't know. And so one was the artist. The other one was a dude, like I said, hanging out to go with his buddies. There's a promo that I've always wanted to ask you about. And now you're in front of me so I can ask you about it. It's right before Survivor Series in 1989.

It's the Rockers, and it's a promo with Ultimate Warrior and Jim the Anvil Nineheart. And Warrior is wrapping you guys up with tape. Do you remember this? Vaguely. vaguely. I've seen it. Again, I see it on a little meaning and stuff like that. Warriors like almost suffocating himself. You're trying your best to like be able to breathe through this. What's going through your mind as this is happening? Well, that was this at a time when again, there was just no, again, there was no creative team. There was no writing. There was no anything.

And that was just Jim being Jim. You just did, you didn't know what he was going to do on a promo. And same with Ann Bull, arguably same with us. I mean, Marty and I might have said, out there and went and they're like, hey, we'll say this, say that. And there might have been a quick powwow between all of us. But, you know, Jim's obviously the top guy here. And he goes off and doing what he's doing. And you just are along for the ride. So, yeah, no, that's one of those ones where I don't know.

That's probably a one take shot. We're done. And that's that. And even if it isn't good, Jim's gone. And so that's that. I'm done. And we're like, okay, here you go. So they'll get just a very different time from a company standpoint.

I've had the opportunity to talk to Shelton Benjamin about that incredible match you guys had on Raw. And in my opinion, the greatest sweet chin music of all time. Walk me through how you guys were able to set that up and make that so memorable. Well, before we went out there, certainly wasn't something we're going to make this memorable. I just, you know, we just knew that Shelton was a hell of an athlete. He could do anything under the sun. We obviously were doing everything we could to have a good match. And that was something that I'm trying to remember.

And I can't say for sure it was Michael Hayes, but it was something that, and it's a finish that certainly I've thought about before, but it's such a timing issue. And, but it came up. And then, of course, where we had it set, which was almost all the way across the ring, and you've got to get a long way. And of course, so it's, it's,

and of course, you're with Shelton, so there's a part of you that knows he can do it, but you're into the mats. So many, there's so many possibilities for things, to go wrong. We have athletes up and down our PC, but after they've been in a 15-minute match, you don't know that by the time they go through 15 minutes or 10 minutes, but that they're going to be able to do at the end of the match what they say they can do at the beginning.

But I can just remember, I do remember Shelton saying, like, again, asking him, like, can you get up and, you know, can you, again, you do the springboard stuff? Can you get it all the way over this? No, I can get over there. I mean, it was, of course, And of course, in your mind you're going, well, of course, not saying you're not the athlete that can't get over there, but it's just, you know, at that point in time. And you feel like, you know, you know, oh, yeah. I mean, I could, you know, if you could have said, I could do that, I don't know, with no sleep and half awake, that would have been what he said. Because he could, because Shelton is just, he really is an amazing athlete. And he certainly was even so good then.

But then it's all about the timing. It's me getting the foot up there. All you can do is go out there and do it and hope that all that timing is right. And that was one of those moments where everything comes together. And what's great is that it was also on top of a really fantastic match. You can have a finish like that. And it's still going to look spectacular. But if the build up to it has not been overly glorious, it'll still get a reaction,

but it doesn't quite mean as much. And it was such a good match to where people didn't know who was going to win and then being able to pull it off out of the blue like that, out of something and kind of stealing it, if you will, or a lucky last shot was just a perfect ending to it. And I will always say this about Shelton. And he was a guy that was so good with such natural ability. The only thing, I just, I can remember saying to him after the match, I said, hey, just to throw this out there, but this is what I've learned over the years is that you can have a great

match and that's always awesome when it puts you on the map. And not to imply that you're not already on the map, you certainly are, but I have found that how you follow that up is sometimes almost as important as, again, what it is you do in that match and how it ends. And I don't, again, I don't know if you ever remembered that, but it's one of those things where I was trying to suggest that, like, hey, you might want to see if you can lean on them to get them to maybe do something about that or do something more with that or have somebody, you know,

get you into another story off of that. And I don't think that ever happened. And that's one of those things that I always felt like, I don't know if, again, and that's, I certainly, it's not for me to say because I don't know if Shelton did or didn't have the opportunity to do that. But I was always very proud of that match. And it's one that everybody remembers. I don't think I see more finishes repeated more than I do that one.

And he just did such a great job on that, the timing of it. He sold it like a million bucks. And again, I'll say that the finish was fantastic, but I was really proud of the match that we had on top of it because that kid could go. One more moment I want to ask you about is, take me into the rafters before your zip line entrance at WrestleMania 12. What's going on there?

What's going through your head? So that's just, again, more honestly than not, you're so focused on the match. one of the things I will say I tell everybody to the story because I always I always have to have a last minute P-break before I go out yeah and nine times out of ten again this was before again the world was like we have it now but there were times I would be in guerrilla and would have to turn around and just go in the trash can right there because I would just always have kind of a nervous one right before I went out I had the same thing there.

And so up at the top of the, you know, there's all the insulin or not the, you know, the, what do they call it the stuff that you? Insulation. Insulation, yeah, the insulation up there on the top. So I had it there. So before I got strapped in, I had to go a little bit. So I had a small urine break up there on the top of the Anaheim pond. and then pulled my drawers up and then strapped in and went.

And honestly, it was the most focus that I had to try to have, which was not going down to just like this, thinking of the match and thinking about everything that we were doing, trying to have some type of excitement, charisma, emotion going down. And also being present in that? Yeah, that's exactly. And trying to let go of everything that's,

got to happen in the next hour. That to me was the most challenging aspect of that. And again, even though I wasn't the praying man that I was, you know, many, many years later, I do remember also just, you know, please don't let anything happen. But I was over the whole thing, let all this go well. And of course, you know, not everything under the sun goes well, but more often than, and not. I'm thankful that that was such a, I don't know, a unique entrance and something that is, I'll say this. I don't know if I would, if I would be included in so many of the

WrestleMania moments or the openings of the shows or cold opens and stuff like that that that I'm a part of had it not been for that entrance. So I'm thankful for it for many different reason because it was something that not a lot of people have done. And it's something that people remember and obviously proud of that. 30 years later, we're still talking about it. Thank you for such a great conversation. And congratulations on everything that you did in the ring. And also congratulations on everything you're doing now with NXT and the PC and everything around that. And I'll end this interview asking you the question I ask everybody because gratitude is such a huge part of my life, Sean. wake up every day I say how loud three things I'm grateful for.

I do it before I go to bed. I would much rather focus on the things I have than the things I don't have. What are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? I am unbelievably grateful for my wife and children. I don't know if that counts as one or two. And look, because it's them and I am. I'm thankful, again, for my wife that she brought, you know, my faith into my life and, you know, those children into my life, which was, for me, that is the

linchpin for everything in my life. And I am. I'm very thankful for this business. I don't know where I have no idea where I would fit in in the rest of, you know, in the rest of the world, I have no idea. And it is, it's those three things. It is, it is my faith, you know, it is my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is my wife and children. And it is, it is my wife and children. And it is, It really is this business and this place because it's, I don't know, it's the W.W.E. That's put up with me. I guess in some forms the wrestling business has, but I think the wrestling business, because of my, you know, at least my talent and when I was able to build would have put up with me no matter what and given me the means to make a living.

But honestly, this place, the WVE, and I know that sounds like just a corporate chill job, But they have put up with me for, as you say, almost 40 years. And look, I've been more positive now than I ever was on the negative. But I don't know, always been there, always supported. And this is a hard business. It is a business. It needs to be. It should be.

It's supposed to be. But no matter, and I'll, again, no matter who. in charge, this business has still been very compassionate and understanding and patient with me. And so I am. I'm thankful for that. And I mean, those are the three because I don't do anything else. I have no other gift. I suppose I haven't.

I've yet to find out what they are. So I am. I'm thankful for those three things. And I, for stuff like this. I'm thankful for that career that I was allowed to have that I get to talk about. But it's all built on, it is all built on this job. And they're also intertwined with one another that I don't have one without the other. And again, in my faith, this is three-cord strand.

You know what I mean? I mean, my wife and I and the Lord. And it's the same way in our life. It's them. It's this business and it's him. and that is a three-quard strain that has been so unbelievably strong in my life that I have found that if I have that,

I don't know that I need much else. Well, I think I can say on behalf of fans everywhere, thank you. Thank you for being one of the greatest of all time. Thank you for all of the memories and the incredible matches. And thank you for this today. My pleasure, and I apologize if I was a very long window.

No, you're the best. Thank you very much. Thank you. The Dan Bonino show. It's our movement, okay? It's ours. We built it. Hard truths. There are a bunch of people out there pulling you into an information vortex, dumping the dead pig in the well, hoping you jump in.

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