Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Shawn Spears on why he chose AEW over a WWE pay raise, Cody Rhodes, his fiancee Peyton Royce

Episode Date: August 23, 2019

Shawn Spears (Tye Dillinger) sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Orlando, FL. He talks about why he asked to be released from his WWE contract, signing with AEW for Double or Nothing the day after his 90 day non-compete clause ended, how him leaving WWE might affect his fiancée Peyton Royce, the crazy story of how he came up with the Perfect 10 character, his appearance at the Royal Rumble, his current AEW contract status and more! Audio equipment provided by Samson Technologies: bit.ly/CVVSamson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Look at you, man. What's the powerful questions. Woo! This is the Chris Van Vleet Show. Chris Van Vleet Show. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. Here we go. What's going on in your world, my friends?

It's the Chris Van Vleet show. I'm Chris Van Vleet. Thanks for giving this a download. And with just a week to go now, until all out, I feel like this is a very fitting interview to post. Sean Spears goes one-on-one with Cody Rhodes in Chicago after that chair shot heard around the world. Ooh, it's going to be good. The podcast has been growing every single week, week to week. And I feel like we're part of something special here, you and I.

I feel like we're sharing something because we're in the early, early stages of this. I mean, you might have watched my videos on YouTube. My channel was started in 2011. But I really started putting the gas on the YouTube channel like two-ish years ago. The podcast, though, the podcast is only two months old, and we're part of this together right now. And I can't remember listening to any of the podcasts that I love, the podcast that I currently listen to at the two-month mark. I mean, most of them, like, you pick up at what, the two-year, three-year, five-year mark, whatever it is. Here we are.

We're the early adapters here. And the reviews you've been leaving have been awesome. I honestly can't thank you enough. They're so, so helpful. Right now, I think we have 261 at last count. And the specific goal, because as you know, specific goals get specific results and vague goals get vague results, is a thousand reviews by August of next year. So I think we're well on our way. We're chugging along here.

And I'm going to keep reading one on every episode. I guess it kind of makes you the fan of the week. It's my way of tipping my cap to you and saying, thank you, good sir, even though I'm not wearing a cap right now. but you know what I mean. Danny and Mississippi calls this the perfect podcast. Wow. This podcast is a breath of fresh air. Unlike most all other wrestling podcasts,

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Danny in Mississippi, that's amazing. Thank you for that. Thank you for being the fan of the show, fan of the week. And please keep these reviews coming. Danny, if you're going to be at all out in Chicago, I want to give you the best high five ever, because I will be there. The Chris Van Vleet Show is brought to you by Green Roads,

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And Samson Tech has helped us out. So samsonTech.com is where you can check out their entire lineup. And if you're thinking of starting a podcast and you don't want to break the bank because you're just starting out, Samson's the way to go. The timing of this interview with Sean Spears is very interesting. This was after double or nothing when he was in the Battle Royal. though there. But before he had officially signed with AEW, he actually signed with AEW like a few days after this interview. So it's really interesting to hear him be extremely open, extremely honest about his time in WWE and why he didn't want to stay there, even though he offered to double his salary.

It's also really interesting that WWE released him from his contract when, I mean, they really haven't released anybody. They've in fact punished people when they've asked for. their release. He also talks about his fiancee, Peyton Royce, talks about how he came up with the Perfect 10 gimmick. This is such a great conversation. And I just want to personally thank Sean for trusting me to do this interview, allowing me to get the story out there. And, man, I just, I just enjoyed this. You could say this interview is perfect. See what I did there? Ladies and gentlemen, the chairman of AEW, Sean Spears.

We are at Disney World right now. The happiest place on Earth. Well, it depends who you ask. It's quite busy. The parking is insane. There's lots of people. I don't get along well with lots of people bumping into me.

So it depends who you ask. But I'm happy to be here now. Finally, we did this. We're doing this now. It's going down and it's going down at Disney. Yeah. So I'm here for work right now. You live close-ish, but thank you for making this happen.

No, no problem. I've been looking forward to this. I kept you in mind. As you can tell, I'm not wearing a suit. I wanted to make sure, after your last video was right back, saying you felt a little inadequate in terms of underdressed, I wanted to make sure I didn't make you feel awkward, especially here at Disney.

So, you know, I was thinking of you, pal. Oh, I'm wearing pants and you're not, so maybe you're the one underdress now. Now it's a party. Yeah. Now it's when I don't wear pants, it's a party. On the Edging Christian podcast, you're like, I'm half dressed right now and I won't tell you which half.

Eating chicken wings. Yeah. Made for a hell of a moment with a bunch of Canadians, which you're Canadian as well. I am Canadian. Ah, that just makes sense. If you're not Canadian, you're missing out. Yeah.

Not everyone's perfect. If you're not. Ooh. Get it. Sorry. All right. I'm done messing around. I'm done messing around.

I'll be... No, I think there's going to be a lot of messing around. Probably. Yeah. Congratulations on everything since leaving WWE. I feel like you've been just crazy busy. Things have been good. Things have been good.

I just got back into the swing of things last Friday. Started off in New York with Creative Pro, which was really fun. And then I just had my last show with XWA in... Oh my God. Where was I? Providence. So I did like five shows in the span of six days already out of the gate. So it was good to get back in there full swing and hit the ground running immediately. So good thing I tried to stay in shape that whole time that I was off because I would have been dying. Well, just 90 days, right? 90 days, but 90 days. I had an injury kind of before that. So I think I'd returned from that for maybe a month. So I had a couple singles matches. But overall, I've been under the ring for kind of a while. Yeah. So to be thrown back into the mix and go 15, 20, 20 months. So I had a couple of months. So I had a couple singles matches. But overall, I've been out of the ring for kind of a while. Yeah. So to be thrown back into the mix and go 15, minutes with a lot of young, talented, you know, passionate young talent is you got to keep up or you get left behind. I think a lot of people saw you for the first time in a while at double or nothing. And this is a new look. Or if they're seeing you now for the first time, this is a new

look. What inspired this? A change just when I was off. Three months off with an injury. I had pins in my hand. So it took a little, it took a while. So, you know, if anybody's been following my career, it's at its lows. It's at its ups and it's had its downs. And during that downtime, it's like it's time for something to change. So it was more of checking off personal boxes for myself. And one of them was when I was coming back, it's like, all right, let's look, let's change things up. Let's give them something different. Let's give them something to work with. And so that involved losing half of my hair. It involved changing up my look, my gear. This was new. This was been in the works for years. But yeah, I came back just looking totally different, hoping that that would kind of spark

some interest and some change. So this is what Sean Spears looks like, and that was what Ty Dillinger looked like. Essentially, this is more, this is me. This is more of me completely open, wide open, and I guess unrestricted. What was it like stepping out into the Battle Royal at Double or Nothing? Nervracking. I was asked this later after the show, after the big event had taken place, media scrub that you were a part of as well it was nerve wracking man I was scared shitless oh I don't know if I could swear on this sure it's the internet can you can you beep everything or here there's your part for

if you need to cut it I cuss like a sailor that's fine all right whatever you need beautiful well then there there it is I was scared I was scared shitless because I've been gone for so long and you know my career in WWE wasn't exactly how I would hope it would be especially coming from NXT and the momentum of the perfect 10 character.

You know, if you, the reality is, if you tell people something long enough, good or bad, eventually they're going to start to believe it. And for a while, I was, you know, the picture painted was that I wasn't exactly a favorable character. I wasn't exactly a character that was going to be utilized to a certain extent. This is what it is and here's what it is and you can take her to leave it. So coming off of that and being hurt and then leaving a lot of time had gone by, a lot of low time. time had gone by. So coming out at double or nothing, I was like, my God, I just hope people remember, I hope people react and I hope people care that I'm here tonight. That was my biggest fear. Scared shitless. But it's a battle royal. You've done many of those before. It wouldn't

have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if I was first in that battle royal out the gate or it wouldn't have mattered if I was Jericho or Kenny's spot or if I was in Mox's spot. It wouldn't have matter where I was on that show on that night because it was the event. It was the event that everybody was talking about. It was a turning point in the world of professional wrestling. Cody said it best. It's a revolution. And I think it's been something that people have been waiting for for so long. And now finally, all right, someone gave it to you. Here it is. And that, and you know what I mean, you get a little smirk on your face now thinking about it because you were there. I was there. So you felt it. I sat behind the curtain because I was able

to watch a huge screen, but I was able to be right behind the curtain so I can hear the audience live as it's happening. And you, all night, all night, just the goose, I get goose, one's kind of thinking about it now, like, they just, they weren't going to stop. They were ready for something. They got what they were looking for and the world's off and running. So you must have been happy to just have any role in that, play any role in that, that night. When the opportunity came up, I dove through the, I didn't care what it was. I didn't know. I even talk about. The business side, the businessman side of me went out the window. I didn't give them the opportunity came up. My 90 days expired the night before. Wow.

A day before. Was that coincidental? I don't know. WWE is very, you know, they knew that double or nothing had been announced at the time that I had asked for my release. They're not silly. They have their thumb on the pulse of what's what's happening in the wrestling world. I asked for my release on my birthday, February 19th. I was verbally granted it on Friday, so I think

that was like the 22nd or something, but I needed the paperwork officially. And I didn't get that to the following week. Had they waited an extra 24 hours, I would not have been able to do double-or-nothing. So I think WWU is being gracious. They knew what was going on. I think they allowed me to be out

at that time to do whatever I wanted to do, including double or nothing. I could be completely wrong and they might have slipped their minds. I don't know. I like to think that I had earned that mutual respect. So either way, I got to be there. That's very generous of them because we hear these stories of people asking for their release and they say, no, we're not letting you out of your contract and we're adding time on because you were injured. Well, I got to ask this the other night by a young talent at an ex-WA show. He goes, why do you think you got out and no one else did? That's tough to answer because no one else was granted their release and it's one of two things. It's one of, well, three things. Maybe it was a mutual respect that I had built up with them through, I was with them for eight and a half years total, including my first time around.

And, you know, I did things right. Never gotten any trouble. I was professional and carried myself well and, you know, always did what I was asked to do. So that was one thing. The other thing is that statement that I put out later that evening on the 19th, February 19th, you can't, it's hard to, it kind of handcuffed them a little bit. So if they would have kept me, that might have made a lot of people unhappy. If they would have kept me and utilized me in a negative way or had me get killed on TV every week.

Again, that probably would have made people upset. I think it put me in the best position possible to get what I was looking for. And the third possible reason is maybe they didn't see anything in me. And they go, you know what? We don't see any value. It is time to go. So go ahead. And to be honest with you, if I really hope it's that one.

I really, really do because that just fuels a little more fire and that just makes thing. I'll make that up in my mind, whether it's truth or not. That's the one I'm going to keep rotating in my mind. That's the reason they let it go. So all right. If you were to let things go with your contract, when was it supposed to expire? WrestleMania 2020.

Oh, so another year plus. It would have been a year plus. And this has been about six months in the works, this release. I wouldn't have made it another year. It wouldn't have made another year. It was just affecting my home life. Not in the sense that people may think. It was just affecting like when I got home and I had two days off, instead of enjoying those

two days off, I was always dreading leaving that third day already. the second I got home, I was like, I gotta leave in two days, my gosh. Which I think a lot of people can relate to like, you know, maybe they got a job they don't like going to on Mondays and then they can't even enjoy Sunday because they know Monday's the next day. Yes. And, you know, when you're, and I don't mean to sound condescending to any, but when you're younger, that's how you're going to feel.

When you're older, you kind of go, this is not the way I should be feeling about things. This is not, you know, time is valuable. There's a lot of things they're not making in life anymore. things you're not going to get any more of land or time so there ain't making any more of that so it becomes that's to me the ultimate currency is time you can't get any of it back so I had to kind of sit back and go all right what is most important to me in my life at this stage of my career much closer to the end of my career than I am at the beginning so how do I want to remember this when I'm 70 yeah and that's what it ultimately boiled down to in terms of leading

up to my requesting my release did you factor is that you being released or asking for your release might somehow affect your future wife, Peyton Royce? We had discussed it. How it would impact her career never came up because when I had initially brought it up it was she was open to speaking about it talked about it and we did on numerous occasions and then finally as she can see like that it nothing was changing nothing was getting better my mentality in terms of what I was bringing home with me bringing work home with you, wasn't getting any better. And eventually she just said to me, like, look, I need you happy.

And I don't care how that is. I don't care where that is. I just know that going forward for the rest of our lives, for our future children and for our household now, I need you happy. So whatever it is you need to do to make yourself happy, I am with you 100%. Wherever you go, I'm with you 100%. And, you know, she has my back. And when you find someone like that, man, put a ring on it.

Put a ring on it. Log it down. Log it down. But she has been my utmost number one supporter, my number one fan, and my best friend through all of this. So in terms of business-wise, it probably helped because she won the tag team championships like a month later at WrestleMania. And that's the other thing too, you know, something like I was there.

I was at WrestleMania. So I had already requested my release. I think I had like another month or maybe just over a month left on my 90 day. and I was backstage at WrestleMania and I said I'd like to be down ringside they took me down they put me and sat me beside them

command family and I got to watch her live win the women's tag team championships live and then they, as soon as they were done they pulled me to the back and that was the last time I'd been at WWE but you know so I don't know if a lot of people are sitting here waiting for me just to hammer them into the ground

or whatever like that look I had my problems with them but they have also been very gracious And I've done things for me that meant a lot to me. And that meant the world to her. Because her family's from Australia. They couldn't make it. So to have somebody in her family there, ringside like everybody else did,

meant the world to her. So that I thank WW4 for sure. But now you're on the outside looking in, and you're obviously very knowledgeable about what goes on in there. Are you not looking at this going, how are you able to still work for this company to treat people like this? Everybody has a different story.

You know, a lot of the big stories right now people that are not being granted their release. You know, Sasha Banks is a big story right now because kind of MIA at the moment. I look at it now from a personal standpoint. I don't really put myself in anybody else's shoes because I can't. I look at it from my personal point of view and I know that I made the right decision. I know I made the right call from me professionally and personally. It's difficult because I look at the product and I'm able to see the issues that I still felt were issues back then.

And now with a big company as competition that I've had one show and they are already the second biggest company pretty much in the world. That is massive and that is going to shake the foundation of WWE. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, that is happening. It's happening because I see it and I hear about it. I hear about the scrambles. I hear about the, you know, we're an hour into TV and we're still writing shows. It happens.

That's business. That's the way this goes. moves quick and moves fast and you better keep up. But I mean, everybody has their own path. I don't really look at them in terms of how they're treating people. I look at it as an overall product and I go, they're going to have to change things up. They're going to step things up if they want to continue on the path in terms of what's important and that's giving the audience a product that they want to see.

And that starts with credibility. Well, you mentioned you were in WWE for eight and a half years. You've been at every single AEW show, all one of them. What would you say is the biggest difference between the product between the two of them? The biggest difference, probably credibility. I had this one of the last conversations I had with Vince. I went into his office and he gave me, anytime I've asked to speak to Vince, he's always given me the time of day. He's always responded to a text message.

He's always, all that kind of stuff, which has been great. But this had been a time, this was closing in on the time that I asked for my release a few months out, and I just went in and I didn't say what I needed to say. And the difference, biggest difference in between both companies, but especially at that time was credibility. Talent needs credibility. They don't necessarily need pushes. Everybody talks about, oh, you should push this guy. You should push this guy. I see it all over the internet all the time.

Oh, they're burying Bobby Root or they're burying Finn Baller. These are all guys that are decorated champions. Not everybody needs a push, but talent does need credibility. If you are watching the product and two guys come out and you're able to already tell what the finishes of that match based on interests alone, that's a problem. Because now we're giving an audience an opportunity to change a channel. We're giving them the opportunity to do this on their phone. They don't care. They're not invested.

And that is what I said to the chairman. And I said, with all due respect, I think we're insulting their intelligence. And they kind of just looked at me and went, oh, shit. But I still stand by that sediment today. It was never about being pushed into that limelight. The hardest schedule ever is a champion's schedule. It is wild. I've seen it with multiple people.

I've seen it with Charlotte Flair when she was a woman's chamber. She's never home. She's home months a month. It's wild. That is the hardest schedule in professional wrestling as a champion's schedule. So there are people that are champions that are like, oh my God, I just want to go home. I just want to be home for a week. Yeah.

So it's not about pushes. It's about credibility. What AEW is doing is if you watch that seven card lineup, everybody had the time, everybody had the opportunity to make themselves a star. They're already a star, but now we're introducing everybody to a worldwide audience. When I say we, I mean like AEW as a whole. They're introducing everybody to a worldwide audience, different people from different parts of all over the world. And here, here you go, showcase your talents, do what you can.

you don't really have any restrictions, just stay in the parameters of what we laid out. Do your thing. Everybody on that show was a star. And if they weren't walking in, they were afterwards. Everybody walked out with credibility. A lot of people you saw in that battle role, you might have never seen before in your life. Now you're going to go, oh, man. Yes.

Wow. Who's Jungle Boy? Yep. Who's that MJF guy? You know what I mean? Hangman Page. Yeah. He's now facing Chris Jericho for the World Championship.

He has a chance to make himself a worldwide name in one night. That's a difference. Credibility is key for the audience because it gives them something to care about. So if I play devil's advocate here, you were offered more money to stay in WWE. You could have just taken the money, sat back, toured around with your wife, and, you know, called it a career. Why not? Because I'm scared, shitless of regret later in life. I again and it's I don't think that I'm old I just like a lot of people say you grow in your 30s

you know what I mean or a lot of young people worry about if they're 26 27 28 oh I don't know what to do with my life here's a spoiler alert you're not supposed to know what to do with your life when your 20 your 20s are not for figuring out what you want your 20s are for figuring out what you don't want then in your 30s you gear towards what you want yeah so for me I am able to look 40 years down the road when I'm 70 and my body doesn't work anymore because I've beaten it up for almost 18 years now I can't barely remember what I did my first five years of my career. So when I'm 70, if I'm lucky, I'm going to be able to remember the last three. How do I want to remember those?

I said it on the Edge and Christian podcast. It did not too long go too. It's going to matter to me when I'm 70 and I'm not mobile and I can't do much else with my life other than think. I'm going to think about three things, whether I was a good person, whether I was a good father, and whether or not I lived a life worth living. And that includes what I did with my career. So did I settle for money that I can no longer use, that it's no use to me anymore?

It might support my family, great, but it's no use to me selfishly. Or am I going to be able to, when all I can do is think, think back and smile and go, I did it on my terms, I finished the matches the way I wanted to. went out of my in-ring career the way I wanted to. Those things later on in life are all that I'm going to be able to think about. And that was the deciding factor when asking to leave. I didn't let them get the number out when they said, we're going to give you a substantial raise. I just went, it's not going to change how I feel tomorrow morning when I wake up. So that is what it ultimately boils down to is not regretting anything in my life later on. That's powerful. It really is.

Or stupid, depending on how you look at it. Some people, it's hard to say, like oh my you walked away from a lot of money well it's easy to say that when you've had money i don't i'm not a millionaire i'm not a millionaire i still need to work i still need to go out and work um but i just know that for me personally and that's just me that money at that time it's not going to matter are you officially signed with a e w no no we have put nothing on paper we have i've met everybody i've met uh which is crazy i've been doing this for almost almost 18 years and I just met the Bucks and I just met Kenny for the first time at double-in-nothing. Yes, I'd never cross paths earlier on in my career when I was on the independence before I got signed the first time.

I never dipped into the States. I was never in any name. I never had a big following, nothing like that. And even after my first time in WWU, same thing, I didn't have a big independent following. It wasn't until I got a following until NXT. So we never crossed paths. I know Cody. I've known Cody since OVW.

I know his family very well. And I met the con family. I met Tony and his father at Double or Nothing. So we all seemed to get along. We all had a good time. We all had some laughs. And we're all very, very proud of the show that they put on. So that was pretty much the basis of just enjoying the weekend.

Again, I wasn't concerned with contracts at the time. I wasn't concerned with anything like that. I just wanted to enjoy being a part of history that night. So were you signed to kind of like an indie deal that? night for double or nothing? Like a handshake will pay you X amount of dollars for that night? It was a one-off, yep. It was like, hey, here's an opportunity, because the card was booked. So, you know, I reached out to a good friend of mine and I said, hey, just so you know, my 90 days expires on this day. And he goes, call me when it's expired. He's like, let me know when it's expired, but until

then I can't really talk. And I said, okay. And then it expired to 24th. Hey, man. You know, and he's like, let's do it. Go ahead. He's like, but the card's fully booked. It's been booked for months and promoting it. So I go, I don't care where you put me. Just get me out there in front of Vegas. Yeah. And I'm sure they'll hopefully, they'll do their thing.

And they did. They showed up in spades or diamonds. So it worked out very, very well for everyone involved. But yeah, that's all it was. Hey, would you like to do this? Yes, absolutely. Was there one specific thing that happened or didn't happen in WWE that kind of was the catalyst for you to go, I don't want to do this anymore.

There wasn't a one specific thing. It was just a combination of missed moments, of missed opportunities. And you have to understand when you sign up for something like that, when you work for a company like that, a lot of the times good things will fall through the cracks. And what I mean by that is a lot of guys are picked ahead of time that before they walk in those doors, I'm bringing this guy in. This is going to be my guy. I'm going to mold him. I'm going to shape him. I'm going to introduce into the audience the way I perceive him.

And whether or not something else on the side is getting popular or getting really rolling or is bigger than what I had initially planned, doesn't matter. I'm going this way. This is such a great chat with Sean Spears. You could say it's perfect. But if shaving has been a terrible experience for you and not perfect at all, we've got you covered at Blue Wire. Our podcast network is teaming up with Harriers to make sure our listeners are shaving. saving comfortably. Go to harries.com slash blue wire to save $10 on a value trial set,

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I think in NXT at the peak of the Perfect 10 Character's popularity, I believe he should have had an NXT championship run. Not for the fact that it's a championship and you should win the title, but because the story, and I had pitched it,

I had pitched winning the NXT title, I believe, at a takeover on a Saturday and then losing it immediately at the NXT TV. tapings, I think on the Wednesday, like four days later. Wow. Because it wasn't about the title. It was about the story. It was about the climb. Being in WWE.

Being released. Fighting for five years. Getting back. Almost getting fired again. And then Perfect Tennis born. And then hold on. People start gravitating. Then people start carrying it. And all of a sudden, I'm in bigger matches, marquee matches. I'm in with all your top guys. And then now I'm working Bobby Rude.

And when they asked Bobby, they said, who do you want to work with for the championship? Bobby showed me the text message. He goes, Tide Illinger. And they said, sorry, there's other plans for him. So no.

And I just kind of went, it was about the story that overcoming, the coming back, and then finally capturing, yes, and then we can go ahead and drop it. We would give everybody

a feel-good moment of it happened. He did it. Yeah. That's, I'll watch that movie. I don't care. Who's playing the role?

I'll watch that movie all day long. Yeah. Like, that's inspiring. Those moments are what creates movies. So was it you go into the main roster that was maybe the beginning of the downfall for your character? I don't know. I'm looking back at it now. Yeah, there was no plan.

There was no plan in place. You know, I was up there for probably almost two years and there was never in an angle. I was never put in a storyline. The closest I had to a storyline was when I was kind of in the mix with AJ styles and Baron Corbyn for the United States championship. but I was put in there to keep them apart for, I think it was five weeks until they had a pay-per-view match. They had a match a hell in the cell, and I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling, I don't know if he'll appreciate this, but I was put in there for about five weeks or so to keep them apart so they didn't have the rest of each other every single week, and people would get like, okay, we get it until the pay-per-view.

But during that time, people started going, huh, okay, like this actually works, and I was having some good matches with AJ, and he was phenomenal in the ring, and he was great. to work with and then I was working a little bit of Corbyn and we had some ins and outs and then by the time the Hellness L. Pay Perview rolled around that year they had still Baron Corbin versus AJ Stiles and everybody thought we were leading towards a triple threat and it took both those guys, AJ and Barron going and knocking on Vince's office and going you need to put him in this match now. Everybody wants it, everybody sees it, let's put him in the match. They went to Vince and had me put in that match that night. Wow. So that's how

I got in that triple threat match. I wasn't supposed to be in it originally. So hats off to those guys. Respect to those guys because they were not selfish at all. They were very, they've always, those kind of guys are always fantastic to work with. The 10 count was so over that I would say it was almost, it almost became like the what chant. Oh, it was a pain in the ass. Because you can't actually hear the ref's 10 count.

I can't. Like that's a lot of people, I would get like, I would see it on Twitter and I'd giggle because everybody's like, oh, this 10 stuff's annoying. It's only good if he's doing, if it's in a match. and other people were just like, this is bullshit. And even other wrestlers like this, okay, because it was on independence too. It was everywhere. So a lot of wrestlers were just like, hey, dude, we get it. I was like, no, dumb asses.

Like, when I'm on the outside, I can't hear shit either. I'm sitting there going, what numbers? He's on eight. Oh, I got to go. I got to get in because I can't hear nothing either. But it's just one of those things where, and I'd like to think it's, you know, I didn't find that character. I think until about 14 years in.

and that audience, the NXT audience and stuff like that or anybody that had been following my career for a great period of time had seen me try something and try this and they were just, there's some horrible ideas that I tried and they were just... Were you a dealer at one time? I was, I actually was a card dealer at a casino and I was trying to do... But even I didn't know what the hell I was trying to do. I had a deck of cards and if I flipped the ace of spades, I think it was, which is weird how it ended up double or nothing. really like how things but if I rolled that then you were like you were in ship but like the whole deck was like aces I don't know it's like the dumbest thing in the world and it made no sense

and I couldn't connect it and then I tried like a germaphobe thing and then but it was like a playoff of like gorgeous George back in the day it was funny but you have to be able to whatever character you come up with for you young kids that are watching this right now that are in the business that are having that hard time finding a character whatever you come up with you it has to be able to translate into the ring it has to be able to flow seamlessly into what you do inside the ropes as well. And that was all these different other character ideas. It was hard to bring them into the ring and have it make sense. Yeah. There was a disconnect until this 10th thing took off. And then I think when people finally saw it, they went,

okay, we, we like this. Yeah. And much to WWEs dismay, or Triple H's dismay, you know, when it came on the scene full-fledged was that takeover, I think the end. And I worked Andrade, CN. And, uh, he said, and, uh, It was supposed to be, you know, babyface CN versus bad guy Perfect 10, but people didn't, they weren't ready to boo me. And I think they just finally said, we like this. Go with this. This is good. This is for you.

And they just took it to heights. No one saw coming. And you told the story on Edging Christian's podcast about how you created a character. And it's almost like serendipitous how this came together. It was, yeah, it's ridiculous how it came together because it came together out of, anger, it came together out of things I was not supposed to see. Yeah, I remember I was home. I don't know when it was. I wasn't taken to a big event. One year, they took like 40 talent, and I was not one of them, and I was furious because I'm like,

you tell me I'm not in the top 40 here. And this is, I need to say this because this is very important. This is pre-Mat-Bloom era. When Matt Bloom took over, NXT, everything turned for the better, for everyone. So this was pre-Hisd. coming in. He saved my career. But when I had, you know, angry, I was at home and I was talking to one of my best friends back home and I was just venting left, right and center. So this was the Buildemot era. This was the Buildemont era. Yeah, I won't, I said his name. I don't want to say his name. We can call him Humorous. You can call him humorous. Oh, he's humorous, all right. So what had happened was I had seen how they were,

reviewing talent at the time. So at the end of the month, they would do reports on talent. And they would send it up so everybody's informed of what's going on down below. And I actually got my eyes and hands on some of them that required everything about me. And there are a few pages long and stuff like that. And essentially, you know, there's a chart. And you're ranked from one to ten across the board in terms of in ring. You get, you know, athleticism, in shape, promo, you know, experience. or you get, you know, attitude, things like that. And across the boards, and every coach has their, you know, and then the final say at the bottom is your head coach at the time.

He ranks you and then his paragraph, what he thinks overall, not any of the coaches. So every other coach has given me nines and 9.5s, and I'm getting a 10 here, and I'm getting a 9 here and whatever like that, and it gets down to the head coach, and I'm getting 6s, and I'm getting 5.5s, and I'm getting 5.5s, and then his description of what he feels overall in terms of where I'm at in my career isn't very flattering as well. And I just went, all right, well, I'm dead in the water here. I'm dead in the water.

So I was home venting to a buddy about that. And I was just saying, there's no one there that's a 10. He's got to give him this guy a 10, that guy at 10. And just in passing, I stopped for a second. I was just quiet. And my buddy just goes, dude, if there's anybody there that's a 10, it's you. You've been doing it forever. Like, I don't know what else to tell you.

And he kind of just walked off. And I left me for a second. I kind of just hung on that statement. I don't know why. And for the next few days, I was just, I was thinking about it. Yeah. Just like you were talking here, but we would be talking right now

and at the time would pop into my mind, and then we would keep talking, but that's how it was. It would just hang out for a while. Right. And I remember going back, and I remember talking to a few people about it. One guy I talked about it too was Tyler Breeze

because we have a very similar NXT career path and main roster path too, kind of, because he was very immersed in finding a character and stuff like that. And he had found Tyler Breeze. And he's like, there might be something with this 10 thing, man. Start thinking about it.

We would scheme some ideas. And eventually I had a little pitch together. So I sent an email to all the coaches at the time. Everybody said, let's get into the conference room. And I had T-shirts made up. That's all I had. That's all I had was perfect 10 T-shirts. And I walked in and I got them all together and sat them all down in the conference room.

And Dusty Rhodes was sitting to my left. And I love Dusty more than anything because for many reasons, but one because he was always brutally honest with me. He never steered me wrong. He didn't give a shit about politics, at least not then and there, or at least not with me. But I sat down and he said, baby, listen, before you pitch whatever it is you have pitched, and I'm sure it's good. He goes, I just need you to know that at this moment, there's never a whisper of you ever going

up to the main roster. Wow. And I went, oh, shit. He goes, I just want to be straight up with you right now. That's where you're at right now. And that was huge for me because I'm like, okay, because I have a feeling. about this. And I was like, okay, well, coming off of that, here's this idea I got.

And I kind of laid out the perfect 10 and the concept of it because I didn't have any pieces in play in terms of how I was going to present it, but I presented a concept. And it was kind of like, huh, huh, okay. And Dusty, his wheels, he sees something. You know what I mean? You can give him a pile of shit and he'll find a way to turn into a brick of gold. That's just how Dream works. And he was the only one that was.

kind of like home you know everybody else is kind of like uh maybe but I wasn't allowed to do anything for two and a half months wasn't allowed to do it on live events why not I was told no I was told no on numerous occasions hey can I try this hey can I try this hey can I try this no no wasn't allowed to do it so I had um I had planned to leave then I went okay um and this is how many years ago oh man uh when did I have find the 10 thing this was probably about 2000 and maybe 14 maybe 15 wow so that I mean that saved your career this was me yes 100% me and jason jordan got pulled into a room and i'm sorry jay jay we got pulled into we were tagging we got pulled into the room the same time they go okay guys this tag team's

not working out which it wasn't we didn't have a hook uh you both have three months to figure it out wow okay so in three months i found the perfect 10th thing and then i was still told no combination of that with the reports that i'm seeing i'm like i'm dead in the water anyway and I am not getting fired twice. So I was getting ready to leave. But then fate steps in however way you want to spin it or look at it and Matt Bloom takes over. I went up to him the day. I think they'd come back from somewhere again that I wasn't taken to because of the previous and I said hey can I talk to you today after and he goes come visit me in my office but please don't leave come talk to me. And I had knocked on his door and I said look

This is and he stopped. He says, look, he goes, don't leave. Whatever you have in your back pocket, whatever you have ready to go, go. You have free reign, go. Just let it all loose. Let it rip, go. And I went, oh, okay. And the rest.

He started putting me a match just with the Finn Ballers and the Nakamuras and the Bobby Roots and the Samoa Joes and the upper guys. Yeah. Conditioning the audience, giving me credibility in their, eyes plus letting me you know work on the stick that I got going on and work out the kinks and everybody would add little ideas and posters and signs and everybody and then all of a sudden you have something and it takes off and Matt Bloom 100% across him but he'd save my career because I was ready to leave then wow and you coming out at number 10 in the rumble was obviously very special for you but special for us too as a fan like to see that all kind of

come together was incredible I didn't think it was going to about three weeks before, or probably about a month before, I started seeing rumblings on Twitter. Like, oh, it would be funny if, you know, Dillinger came out at number 10. I'd be like, oh, that would be kind of funny. But it's the Royal Rumble. There's only 30 spots. We have 200 talent. Yeah.

And then as, you know, the days went on, it started to kind of pick up momentum. And probably about like, maybe two and a half weeks out. We were in an NXT TV taping and I went up to Hunter and Michael Hayes. And I said, hey, you know, it's not. getting huge traction but what if i came out at number 10 in the rumble you know and i don't have to lack in last 10 seconds it doesn't matter like but it's just it solidifies this number 10 thing and it could be a pretty cool moment that kind of went huh and then michael said well i don't have the rumble booked yet but we'll let you know i was like cool okay i feel good i threw it out there

and hunter just kind of went hmm and i heard nothing for weeks now it's takeover san antonio i'm getting ready to work eric young i've heard nothing about the rumble the next night And of course, that's out of my mind now because I'm working at young. I'm focused on the task at hand. And the way that setup was that night was you had to go through Gorilla, go through the curtain, you had to walk down a little bit of a corridor, then around the corner, and then out. Well, I was in the middle of that corridor while the package was playing.

So I was already out of Gorilla. I just wasn't in front of the audience yet. And as the package is winding down, I'm first out the gate. Hunter steps through the curtain. He goes, hey, tear it up tonight. You're in the Rumble tomorrow and walks back into Gorilla. I'm like, what the 10? Oh shit.

And then out I go. So he literally told me the second I was getting ready to go out to have a match at takeover. He went, he totally decided to spring it on me then. Did that affect your match? Not one bit. He did it because, you know, as a gag, like, he knows what he's doing. Sure. And looking, I couldn't help but smile.

I'm like, oh, focus, get your shit together. And then, no, it didn't affect my match at all because it's weird when you go through the curtain. It's anything you're feeling, whether it's, you know, elation or you're sad or you're beat up or you're sore, you're half broken or, you know, you're limping when you go through it's like a whole new. It's something just turns out. I can't explain it. But everything goes away and you dial in. It's really weird. It's, you're looking around, but you don't see people.

It's odd. It's very odd. But when you get that dialed in, man, so I was, that's how I was. When those takeover, I took those takeovers. So every one of those was, for me, that was my main. event, pay-per-view of whatever was around at the time. That was my SummerSlam. That was my WrestleMania. That was my, you know, Survivor Series. Whatever it was, I took those first matches, those takeovers were, they were everything to me. The interview that you did

backstage after the Royal Rumble, it was so genuine and authentic. You could tell that this was like the culmination of your entire career being able to be out there at the Rumble. It just felt so authentic that you're like, I don't even have words right now. the most important, like being out there was great and seeing the people, you know, and being in the spot that I was in because when I came out, it was just pretty much, I think Sammy was, Sammy and Braun Stromer was really, but Brown was standing just by himself. So I had a spotlight.

But it was just before I went out probably about 90 seconds to two minutes I went out because everybody's in Gorilla. I'm the next one out and people, you know, my peers, people that I admired and respected for a very long time, worked with for a very long time, were genuinely happy for me. When they started counting down the clock, they started all my peers. I think it was just a lot of them knew what I had been through. A lot of them had seen me put in the work and it was just, that meant more to me that night than anything else. So what you saw in that interview afterwards, that was probably what I was carrying me,

that thought at that moment during that interview was just the admiration from your peers or from people that you truly admire is second to none. It goes beyond any fame or stardom or anything like that because whatever you leave behind, whatever legacy you have that, those are the people that are going to carry it for you. You know what I mean? The people that speak about you and how they speak about you speaks volumes to your character. So I take my reputation very serious.

seriously and that that night meant the world to me just based on that alone. Do you think that if you never got called up to the main roster, if you just stayed in NXT, that you'd still be an employee of WWA? I don't know because it's tough to say. Because I feel like your character, you know, we want to talk about credibility, your character in NXT had so much credibility. But I was also ready for something. If I wasn't going to have the opportunity to carry the NXT championship to see

I was made of to see if I could carry it or not or see if I could make a difference in terms of houses, selling tickets and stuff like that. If that responsibility wasn't going to be laid upon me, then I wanted something more, which was the next step up. I wanted to work with the Dolph Stiglars. I wanted to work with the Seth Rolins, D.A.J. Stiles. I want to work with those guys. I want to see if I can hang.

So during that time, towards the end of NXT, once I realized that that championship opportunity was going to come my way, let me up. Let's go. but knowing now what I know I would have been way better off staying in NXT and I asked to go back but it just wasn't in the cards at that time going

it's tough because NXT has a one-hour television show they have 100 talent down to the performance center they only have X amount of spots so real estate down there isn't exactly available so if I was to go back down in what capacity would it be in I was asked to be a coach three times during my last probably year and a half in NXT, which I love to teach, love to help.

That's why Flatbacks is opening up. Flatbacks Training School, myself and Tyler Breeze are going to be opening up one starting July next month. So flatback training at gmail.com. In Orlando? In Orlando. Apaka, Florida, just on the outside a little bit, but that's a cheap little plug. No, please. Plug away.

Oh, I'll be plugging. Because there's plenty of people that are watching this right now that are either thinking of being a wrestler or maybe training somewhere that doesn't give great training. Credibility. Credibility. Make sure you get trained by someone who's done something, been somewhere, or who, as Tyler Breeze is, currently somewhere. I'm sorry, I got all sides. No, no, that was going to be my next question anyway. So, you know, you have all this experience, 18 years in the business. You've been asked to be a coach. Are you taking this knowledge you have now? Is that why you want to open up your own training school? I did a few seminars post.

WWE and It's just I there's just a lot of small fundamental things that are very important in terms of Moving forward in somebody's career this business is evolving. It's moving quicker. It's getting bigger and it's moving quicker and if you're not ready to adapt to that or you Are not in a position to learn properly or be trained properly safely you might get left behind. You might not even get out of the starting gate So what myself and Tyler is doing is providing a place to learn properly, learn what's happening currently, learn kind of taking what we have accumulated in our time in NXT, OVW, prior to all that,

our time on the Indies, we're kind of be able to bring everything to the table and go, here's what we can offer you. This is the template that we followed. We don't guarantee anything. We don't guarantee that you're going to be in WWE, AEW, anywhere else, nothing like that. We can guarantee two things that we will teach you how to keep yourself safe and somebody else safe and we will teach you how to wrestle. That is it.

The rest is up to you. I actually went to wrestling school when I was 20. I went to Russellplex Ontario for Eric Young briefly. And then I was at Squared Circle in Toronto with Fuego. And I think that the interesting thing about this is actually taking that step to go through the door and sign up and actually put the work in to be a wrestler is massive. In all the lead up to that, though, what can someone do before they take that huge leap to actually attending wrestling school? It's that leap. That is the starting point, man. And it was weird. I was on the

way over here and I was thinking about some of the questions that you might have asked because we didn't really. Yeah, we're just talking. And it's, it's so weird. You see the movie of Star is have you seen that yet? Of course. The world's crying at the end. Exactly. Who didn't, right? There is one, that movie is phenomenal, but there's one part in that movie and there's two

scenes and they happen at the exact same time in that movie. So before, when he's singing shallow and before she steps out on stage, he's singing his verse and Lady Gaga standing there off to the side and she's looking around like, that thought going through her mind is, I'm scared to death, I'm scared shitless, but if this is going to happen, this is the moment it needs to happen. this is the moment it needs to happen. And then whatever the hell pushes her to do it, her feet start moving, she walked up to the microphone.

And she starts singing. The second big moment happens when she kicks into the chorus. And that look on her face where like as she's screaming is, it's happening. Yeah. The life is changing right now. Whatever fear you had, you are breaking through. It's the same thing in beginning any venture in life. I can relate it to wrestling is like,

yeah, you're scared shitless to go through the curtain for the first time. Be worried about what everybody's going to think. You're worried if you're going to fall flat on your face. But I would rather fall on my face and know for sure than never take that step. So go through the curtain. And then there's a really good chance if you're prepared that something beautiful will happen during whatever it is you're going through. If it's a wrestling match and it's clicking and the other guy is on point and you're on point

and the story you're telling is hitting on all cylinders, you could feel. feel it happening and everything changes. Do you have like a phrase or a mantra in your life that's really helped your life? Oh, man, I follow motivational quotes on Twitter and stuff like that. Just because I like to read just what people through history have just things that have gotten them through things. I don't really have anything in specific. I wish I had something very clever, very educational to say.

No, this Star is born stories. fantastic it's just you never want I just I'm scared to death of regret I just never want to say man I should have that's that's my biggest thing if that if you can take anything away from this if there's anything holding you back and if it's one of if you're worried about what other people think especially people you don't know your chances are you're never gonna know them so why are you wasting your time worrying anyway yeah and that's the best analogy I can give from that star is born is like that's that one movement

moment in that movie, that was worth that whole, that was an incredible moment. I can relate to that the most. I think as we wrap this up, a lot of people are going to be asking about your tattoo. So can you show us and maybe tell us about the inspiration. Show it off to the camera. If you guys can kind of see this, this has been a while in the making. So this is the most important piece. This is an angel. And this is my grandmother's name. This is Elda. My family never had a lot of money, then we never, we still don't, came from money. So any, you know, big ventures that I went to Japan or, you know, if I had some barred times in Puerto Rico or Mexico and stuff like that, she was always the one to go, let me know if you ever need anything and I'm there for you. She was always

there for me. I would have quit a long time ago if she wasn't in my life because I wouldn't have been able just to self-sustain my, you know, my habit of being a professional wrestler. So that is for her. That in the middle there is a 10. That is a Roman, numeral. Yes. Because no matter what happens in my career, this was one of my favorite times in wrestling. And it was the one thing that allowed me to connect to many, many people, which was huge. This is death holding a clock. The clock is 238. That was the time I was born. And the way I kind of equate this is from the second you're born, death is following you. Death is chasing you. So at some point or another, he catches you. So you want to make sure that you live the best life you can the way you want to. Because at some point or another, he's going to catch you. So why not go out on your terms? These are Japanese cherry blossoms.

There's 11 of them because in 2011 I was in Japan. And that's when that big massive earthquake hit. So that's for Japan. And then these are, I can never say it right, Plumeras, Plumerias? I don't you know better than me. These are, this is a Hawaiian flower, and this is for my Peyton, because she, she loves, this is her favorite flower and she loves Hawaii. So that reminds me of her every single day. Wow.

So, oh, and then that, that's, you ever seen the gray, the movie? Love the gray. So there's a poem in there that is recited throughout, live and die on this day. Yes. Same thing, same kind of mantra as the cold in the clock is, you know, live your life. Live the best life you have every single day. And, you know, go on your own terms. We've learned a lot in this interview.

I hope it's good. This is really good. I never had a chance to talk about you. So I never got to explain a lot of things, or the perfect ten, for that matter. But this is cool, man. I don't get to do a lot of this stuff. So hopefully going forward, I will now. I really appreciate it.

Tell us something about Peyton that we might not know. Oh, gosh. Because there's going to be a lot of Peyton Royce fans watching. A ton of people. Guys, she's the rock star. She's the rock star of the team going forward. She's the talent. I'll challenge her on the looks part. I'm a damn good looking. She's got a pretty face for a lady's face, man. Ain't I the prettiest thing you ever seen? That's Mohabat Ali. Just, I mean, when you see her on camera, she's so funny. She's so entertaining. And spoiler alert when, like, she was just over at the house last night, Jess, or sorry, Billy,

was just over that that's how they are in real life they're at that they're like how they are on tv they're like that at the house and it's drives me nuts but like they are so funny together they're so funny on television but she has the utmost sweetest soul she has the oldest soul um funny little tidbit our very first date i'm a little older than her uh our very first date i told her we're not you know we're probably not going to be together along Like we can hang out. We can have some fun, but I mean, come on, I'm a little older than you and You know, it's chances of us really working out or you know you have a life to live That's kind of a real shitty thing to say. I was like, you do a Peyton impression

She kind of shot no, no the but the accent too. Oh, absolutely not Absolutely not. She would she would she'd butcher me if I even attempted to do it But I told her we weren't going to kind of work out and she went all right. We'll see And lo and behold I was wrong and she's still proving you wrong. She's still proving you're wrong She's still proven me wrong, and I couldn't be more happy to be wrong. So, yeah, she just got such an older soul, and she's a sweetheart. And, you know, she's my best friend, and that's, like, oof, I wouldn't be able to do any of this right now if it wasn't for her. Wow.

Can we throw up at 10 as we end things up? That's all I got left. I got nothing. Boom. There you have it, my friends. What a chat. What a guy. That might be one of my favorite interviews of the year.

And the fact that we did that at Disney World. I was there to interview the cast of Toy Story 4, and I had like two hours of spare time before I had to, you know, do my day job work. And Sean was able to meet me and make this happen. And a huge congrats to him for all of the success he's had. You know, obviously he signed with AEW not long after this interview. And he has new clear heat right now. Things are just going so great for him. If you enjoyed this chat, as much as I did, as much as I'm talking about how much I enjoyed it,

Take a screenshot. Tag me, tag Sean, let us know what you thought of this and share it with your friends. What a great chat here. Thank you to our sponsors. MyBooky, head to MyBooky.com slash Bluewire to sign up. Also, thanks to Roman. You can get a free online doctor's visit and free two-day shipping by visiting getromen.com slash bluewire. And Harry's Razors, harries.com slash bluewire to save $10 on a value trial set.

and then you get it for just three bucks, high quality razor for three bucks. Greenroadsworld.com has the best CBD products and you can get 15% off by using the code Chris 15. And Samson Technologies, man, they make us sound good, don't they? My voice always goes so deep when I do that. All out in Chicago is now one week away. I'll be there. If you'll be there, it'd be awesome to meet you. It'd be awesome to give you a high five.

And let me know who you want to see me do interviews with there. I haven't sent anything up officially with this person I'm about to name, but Orange Cassidy's there. He's been probably the person you guys have been asking me the most to do interviews with, other than maybe CM Punk, which I don't know. I've reached out to him, and I don't think that one's going to happen, but who knows? I'd like it to happen. If you don't already follow me on Instagram or Twitter, please do. That's the best way to find out who I'm doing interviews with next.

I always post on Twitter. Hey, I'm interviewing so-and-so. should I ask them? And actually, I'm going to be posting one of those later today. I'm interviewing Sammy Guevara in Houston this weekend. What do you want to ask him? Let me know. And on Instagram, I usually make an Instagram story or two or four with like, hey, look who

I'm with. Here you go. And I always end these interviews with a quote. And I figured this one would be very fitting since we just talked to the perfect 10, Sean Spears. This is a quote from Vince Lombardi. He says, perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch.

excellence. There you go. Go catch some excellence this weekend as well. And if you're going to Chicago, all out, we will see you there. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands

trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from me. 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987.

I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.