Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Shawn Spears - Why he chose AEW over big WWE pay raise

Episode Date: June 17, 2019

Shawn Spears (Tye Dillinger) is the newest member to the AEW roster. He goes into detail about why he asked for his release from WWE, why he thinks he was granted it when so many others weren't, how him leaving WWE might affect his fiancée Peyton Royce, the crazy story of how he came up with the Perfect 10 character, his appearance at Number 10 at the Royal Rumble, his new wrestling school with Tyle Breeze called Flatbacks and more! Audio equipment provided by Samson Technologies: bit.ly/CVVSamson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Was the Raptors even started around that time? Come on, bro. I ain't that old, fam. You're talking like I'm 50. Taylor, Rokes, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to the Doozone with Drusky on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

It's Chrysomania, brother. That's a great question. Look at you. man with the powerful questions this is the Chris Van Vleet show Chris Van Vleet show Ladies and gentlemen Chris

This is the first ever Chris Van Vleet show Sounds good Welcome I'm Chris Van Vleet and it means the world to me that you're listening to this right now So I can't thank you enough for that I know a lot of you are listening to this now

Because you've watched my interviews on YouTube And that's been amazing I mean, I started my YouTube channel eight years ago posting wrestling interviews, and over the last, you know, year and a half or so, this has really grown into something special. And it's all because of you and because of this amazing thing that we call pro wrestling that unites us all together. Whether you like WW, AE, AEW, New Japan, Impact, Ring of Honor, Lucha, anything else, whatever it is. At the end of the day, it's wrestling, and we love it. So I have to say this podcast has been a long time coming, probably too long. This probably should have happened a while ago, and I get it.

It's not always easy watching a YouTube video for 30, 40, even 50 minutes like this one's going to be. So the plan here is to still upload to YouTube like we always do and then put the audio version on here in podcast form so you can listen wherever, whenever you want. And hey, maybe you'll hear something on here and maybe you'll go, oh, I got to see that. and then you'll go and you'll click on the YouTube video. So if you do like this, it'd be awesome. If you went and left a five-star review and share this so you can get the word out and let everybody know that the CVV show is now in town.

So before we get to the very interesting conversation with Sean Spears, who you'll know from his time in WWE as the perfect tent Tide Dillinger, the Chris Van Vleet show is brought to you by Green Roads. And Green Road's CBD products have been a complete, game changer for me. Unfortunately, not all CBD products are created equal. I mean, we've heard a lot about CBD over the last year or so. And a lot of companies have launched products hoping to cash in on that CBD boom with low quality formulas. Some of them don't even have actual CBD in them. Greenroads is a

pharmacist founded company dedicated to improving the lives of people who take it. People like me, the CBD oil is super simple to take, just a few drops under your tongue and it's really helped me focus. I'm not like I'm not really a stressy person, but I've got a lot going on these days with YouTube and launching this podcast and my day job and traveling the world. And it and and it kind of helps my brain go from like a 16 lane highway down to like a four lane highway. Also the relaxed gummies have been amazing and taste just as good as actual gummy bear candies. So use my code, Chris 15, to get 15% off your order. at greenroadsworld.com.

Chris 15 for 15% off. The CVV show also brought to you by Samson Technologies, which is the audio equipment that I am using as we speak. If you're looking to start your own podcast or upgrade your current equipment, I highly recommend Samson. Perceptions reality, right? So in order to, for people to think that you're running a professional podcast,

you have to sound like a professional podcast. And Samson, as you can hear, makes me sound like a million bucks, and they're incredibly affordable. So go to sampsonTech.com to check out their product offerings. And because I know you're going to ask, I personally use Samson's Pro Podcasting Pack. Now, you know Ty Jollinger from the WWE, he asked for his release from WWE back in February. He was granted it, which is actually a pretty amazing feat in itself, because a lot of superstars have been denied their release, time added on for some people too.

So he now goes by Sean Spears. We talk about why he thinks he got his release, him turning down what he called a substantial raise from WWE, his fiance, Peyton Royce, his appearance at double or nothing, and so much more. And I think before I throw to this, I got to point out that we did this interview just a few days before his official announcement that he had signed with AEW. So by the way, congratulations to Sean for that. So with all that said, here we go.

the very first episode of the CVV show, the Chris Van Vlead show, with the Perfect 10, Ty Dillinger, aka Sean Spears. We are at Disney World right now. The happiest place on Earth. Well, it depends who you ask. It's quite busy. The parking is insane. There's lots of people.

I don't get along well with lots of people bumping into me. So it depends who you ask. But I'm happy to be here now. Finally, we did this. We're doing this now. It's going down. and it's going down at Disney. Yeah, and so I'm here for work right now.

You live close-ish, but thank you for making this happen. No, no problem. I've been looking forward to this. I kept you in mind. As you can tell, I'm not wearing a suit. I wanted to make sure, after your last video was right back, saying you felt a little inadequate in terms of underdressed, I wanted to make sure I didn't make you feel awkward,

especially here at Disney. So, you know, I was thinking of you, pal. Oh, I'm wearing pants and you're not, so maybe you're the one underdress now. Now it's a party. Yeah. Now it's, when I don't wear pants, it's a party. On the Edging Christian podcast, you're like, I'm half dressed right now, and I won't tell you

which have. Eating chicken wings. Yeah. Made for a hell of a moment with a bunch of Canadians, which you're Canadian as well. I am Canadian. Ah, that just makes sense. If you're not Canadian, you're missing out. Yeah.

Not everyone's perfect. If you're not. Ooh. Get it. Sorry. All right. I'm done messing around. I'm done messing around.

I'll be. No, I think there's going to be a lot of messing around. Probably. Yeah. Congratulations on everything since leaving WWE. I feel like you've been just crazy busy. Things have been good. things have been good. I just got back into the swing of things last Friday. Started off in New York

with Creative Pro, which was really fun. And then I just had my last show with XWA in, oh my God, where was I? Providence. So I did like five shows in the span of six days already out of the gate. So it was good to get back in there full swing and hit the ground running immediately. So good thing I tried to stay in shape that whole time that I was off because I would have been dying. Well, just 90 days, right? 90 days, but 90 days. I had an injury kind of before that. So I think I'd return from that for maybe maybe a month. So I had a couple singles matches, but overall I've been under the ring for kind of a while. Yeah. So to be thrown back into the mix and go 15, 20 minutes with a lot of

young, talented, you know, passionate young talent is you got to keep up or you get left behind. I think a lot of people saw you for the first time in a while at double or nothing. And this is a new look. Or if they're seeing you now for the first time, this is a new look. What inspired this? A change just when I was off. Three months off with an injury. I had pins and my hands so it would took a little it took a while so you know if anybody's been following my career it's it's at its lows it's at its ups and it's had its downs and during that downtime it's like it's time for something to change so it was more of checking off personal boxes for myself and one of them was when I was coming back it's like all right let's look let's change things up let's give them

something different let's give them something to work with and so that involved losing half of my hair It involved changing up my look, my gear. This was new. This had been in the works for years. But yeah, I came back just looking totally different, hoping that that would kind of spark some interest and some change. So this is what Sean Spears looks like, and that was what Ty Dillinger looked like.

Essentially, this is more, this is me. This is more of me completely open, wide open, and I guess unrestricted. What was it like stepping out to the Battle Royal at Double or Nothing? Nerve-wracking. I was asked this later after the show, after the big event had taken place, the media scrub that you were part of as well. It was nerve-wracking, man. I was scared shitless. Oh, I don't know if I could swear on this. Sure, it's the internet. Can you beep everything or hear it? There's your part for if you need to cut it. I cuss like a sailor.

That's fine. All right. Whatever you need. Beautiful. Well, then there, there it is. I was scared. I was scared shitless because I've been gone for so long. know my career in WWE wasn't exactly how I would hoped it would be especially coming from NXT and the momentum of the perfect 10 character you know if you the reality is if you tell people something long enough good or bad eventually they're going to start to believe it and for a while I was you know the picture painted was that I wasn't exactly a favorable character I wasn't exactly a character that was going to be utilized to a certain extent this is what it is and here's what it is and you can take her to leave it. So coming off of that and being hurt and then

leaving a lot of time had gone by, a lot of low time had gone by. So coming out at double or nothing, I was like, my guy, I just hope people remember. I hope people react and I hope people care that I'm here tonight. That was my biggest fear. Scared shitless. But it's a battle royal. You've done many of those before. It wouldn't have mattered. It wouldn't have mattered if I was first in that battle royal out the gate or if it wouldn't have mattered if i was jericho or Kenny's spot or if i was in mox's spot at the it wouldn't have mattered where i was on that show on that night because it was the event it was the event that everybody was talking about it was a turning point in the world of professional wrestling um Cody said it best it's a revolution

and i think it's been something that people have been waiting for for so long and now finally all right someone gave it to you here it is Yeah. And that, and you know what I mean, you get a little smirk on your face now thinking about it because you were there. I was there. I was there. I was able to watch a huge screen, but I was able to be right behind the curtain so I can hear the audience live as it's happening. And you, all night, all night.

Just the goose. I get goose one's kind of thinking about it now. Like they just, they weren't going to stop. They were ready for something. They got what they were looking for and the world's off and running. So you must have been happy to just have any. role in that, play any role in that night? When the opportunity came up, I dove through the, I didn't care what it was. I didn't even talk about, the business side, the businessman side of me

went out the window. I didn't give them the opportunity came up. My 90 days expired the night before. Wow. Day before. Was that coincidental? I don't know. W.We is very, you know, they knew that double or nothing, had been announced at the time that I had asked for my release, they're not silly, they have their thumb on the pulse of what's happening in the wrestling world. I asked for my release on my birthday, February 19th. I was verbally granted it on Friday, so I think that was like the 22nd or something, but I needed the paperwork officially.

And I didn't get that to the following week. Had they waited an extra 24 hours, I would not have been able to do double nothing. So I think WW is being gracious. They knew what was going on. I think they allowed me to be out at that time to do whatever I wanted to do, including double or nothing.

I could be completely wrong and they might have slipped their minds. I don't know. I like to think that I had earned that mutual respect. So either way, I got to be there. That's very generous of them because we hear these stories of people asking for their release and they say,

no, we're not letting you out of your contract and we're adding time on because you were injured. Well, I got to ask this the other night by a young talent at an ex-WA show. He goes, well, why do you think you got out and no one else did? That's tough to answer because no one else was granted their release. And it's one of two things. It's one of, well, three things. Maybe it was a mutual respect that I had built up with them.

I was with them for eight and a half years total, including my first time around. and, you know, I did things right. Never gotten any trouble. I was professional and carried myself well and, you know, always did what I was asked to do. So that was one thing. The other thing is that statement that I put out later that evening on the 19th, February 19th, you can't, it's hard to, it kind of handcuffed him a little bit. So if they would have kept me, that might have made a lot of people unhappy. If they would have kept me and utilized me in a negative way or had me get killed on TV every week, again,

that probably would have made people upset. I think it put me in the best position possible to get what I was looking for. And the third possible reason is maybe they didn't see anything in me. And they go, you know what? We don't see any value. It is time to go. So go ahead. And to be honest with you, if I really hope it's...

that one. I really, really do because that just fuels a little more fire and that just makes I'll make that up in my mind, whether it's truth or not. I'm going to get that's the one I'm going to keep rotating in my mind that, okay, that's the reason they let it go. So, all right. If you were to let things go with your contract, when was it supposed to expire? WrestleMania of 2020. Oh, so another year plus. It would have been a year plus. And this has been about six months in the works, this release. It just, I wouldn't have made it another year. It wouldn't have made another year. my home life. Not in the sense that people may think it was just affecting like when I got home and I had two days off instead of enjoying those two days off I was always dreading leaving

that third day already the second I got home I was like I gotta leave in two days my gosh. Which I think a lot of people can relate to like you know maybe they got a job they don't like going to on Mondays and then they can't even enjoy Sunday because they know Monday is the next day. Yes and you know when you're and I don't mean to sound condescending to any but when you're younger you that's how you that's how you're going to feel when you're older you kind of go this is not the way i should be feeling about things this is not i you know time is valuable there's a lot of things they're not making in life anymore two things you're not going to get any more of land or time so uh there ain't making any more of that so it becomes that's to me the ultimate

currency is time you can't get any of it back so i had to kind of sit back and go all right what is most important to me in my life at this stage of my career. I'm much closer to the end of my career than I am at the beginning. So how do I want to remember this when I'm 70? Yeah. And that's what it ultimately boiled down to in terms of leading up to my requesting my release. Did you factor in that you being released or asking for your release might somehow affect your future wife, Peyton Royce? We had discussed it.

How it was impact her career never came up because when I had initially brought it up. She was open to speaking about it, talked about it, and we did on numerous occasions. And then finally, as she can see like that, nothing was changing, nothing was getting better. My mentality in terms of what I was bringing home with me, bringing work home with you, wasn't getting any better. And eventually she just said to me like, look, I need you happy. And I don't care how that is.

I don't care where that is. I just know that going forward for the rest of our lives, for our future children and for our household now, I need you happy. So whatever it is you need to do to make yourself happy, I am with you 100%. Wherever you go, I'm with you 100%. And, you know, she has my back. And when you find someone like that, man, put a ring on it. Put a ring on it.

Logging down. Log it down. But she has been my utmost number one supporter, my number one fan, and my best friend through all of this. So in terms of business-wise, it probably helped because she won the tag team championships It's like a month later at WrestleMania. And that's the other thing too. You know, something like I was there.

I was at WrestleMania. So I had already requested my release. I think I had like another month or maybe just over a month left on my 90 day. And I was backstage at WrestleMania. And I said, you know, I'd like to be down ringside. They took me down. They sat me beside the command family. And I got to watch her live win the women's tag team championships live.

And then they, as soon as they were done, they pulled me to the back. And that was the last time I'd been at WWE. But, you know, so I don't know if a lot of people are sitting here waiting for me just that hammer them into the ground or whatever like that. Like, look, I had my problems with them. But they have also been very gracious. And I've done things for me that meant a lot to me. And that meant the world to her.

Because her family's from Australia. They couldn't make it. So to have somebody in her family there ringside like everybody else did meant the world to her. So that I thank WWE for for sure. But now you're on the outside. looking in and you're obviously very knowledgeable about what goes on in there. Are you not looking at this going, how are you able to still work for this company that can treat people like this? Everybody has a different story. You know, a lot of the big stories right now are people that are not

being granted their release. You know, Sasha Banks is a big story right now because kind of MIA at the moment. I look at it now from a personal standpoint. I don't really put myself in anybody else's because I can't. I look at it from my personal point of view and I know that I made the right decision. I know I made the right call for me professionally and personally it's difficult because I look at the product and I'm able to see the issues that I still felt were issues back then and now with a big company as competition that I've had one show and they are already the second biggest company pretty much in the world. Yes. I That is massive and that is going to shake the foundation of WWE whether anybody wants to admit it or not That is happening. It's happening because I see it and I hear about it

I hear about the scrambles I hear about the you know we're an hour into TV and we're still writing shows like it happens That's business. That's the way this goes it moves quick and moves fast and you better keep up But I mean everybody has their own Everybody has their own path. I don't really look at them in terms of how they're treating people I look at it as an overall product and I go, they're going to have to change things up. They're going to have to step things up if they want to continue on the path in terms of what's important. And that's giving the audience a product that they want to see.

And that starts with credibility. Well, you mentioned you were in WW for eight and a half years. You've been at every single AEW show, all one of them. What would you say is the biggest difference between the product between the two of them? The biggest difference, probably credibility. I had this, one of the last conversations I had with Vince, I went into his office and he gave me, anytime I've asked to speak to Vince, he's always given me the time of day.

He's always responded to a text message. He's always, all that kind of stuff, which has been great. But this had been a time, this was closing in on the time that I asked for my release a few months out, and I just went in and I didn't say what I needed to say. and the biggest difference in between both companies, but especially at that time, was credibility. Talent needs credibility. They don't necessarily need pushes.

Everybody talks about, oh, you should push this guy. You should push this guy. I see it all over the internet all the time. Oh, they're burying Bobby Root or they're burying Finn Baller. These are all guys that are decorated champions. Not everybody needs a push, but talent does need credibility. If you are watching the product and two guys come out and you're able to already tell what the finishes of that match based on interests alone,

that's a problem. Because now we're giving an audience an opportunity to change a channel. We're giving them the opportunity to do this in their phone. They don't care. They're not invested. And that is what I said to the chairman. And I said, with all due respect, I think we're insulting their intelligence. And he kind of just looked at me and went, oh, shit.

But I still stand by that sediment today. It was never about being pushed into that limelight. The hardest schedule ever is a champion schedule. It is wild. I've seen it with multiple people. I've seen it with Charlotte Flair when she was a woman's champ. She's never home. She's home months a month.

It's wild. That is the hardest schedule in professional wrestling as a champion's schedule. So there are people that are champions that are like, oh my God, I just want to go home. I just want to be home for a week. So it's not about pushes. It's about credibility. What AEW is doing is if you watch

that seven card lineup, everybody had the time, everybody had the opportunity to make themselves a star. They're already a star, but now we're introducing everybody to a worldwide audience. When I say we, I mean like AEW as a whole. They're introducing everybody to a worldwide audience, different people from different parts of all over the world, and here, here you go, showcase your talents, do what you can. You don't really have any restrictions. Just stay in the parameters of what we laid out. Do your thing. Wow. Everybody on that show was a star.

And if they weren't walking in, they were afterwards. Everybody walked out with credibility. Yeah. A lot of people you saw in that battle role, you might have never seen before in your life. Now you're going to go, oh, man. Yes. Wow. Who's Jungle Boy?

Yep. Who's that MJF guy? You know what I mean? Hangman Page. Yeah. He's now facing Chris Jericho for the World Championship. He has a chance to make himself a worldwide name in one night. That's a difference.

Credibility is key for the audience because it gives them something to care about. So if I play devil's advocate here, you were offered more money to stay in WWE. You could have just taken the money, sat back, toured around with your wife, and, you know, called it a career. Why not? Because I'm scared, shitless of regret later in life. I, again, and it's, I don't think that I'm old. I just like, a lot of people say you grow in your 30s, you know what I mean? Or a lot of young people worry about if they're 26 27 28 oh I don't know what to do with my life here's a spoiler alert you're not supposed to know what to do with your life when you're 20 your 20s are not for figuring out what you want your 20s are for figuring out what you don't want then in your

30s you gear towards what you want yeah so for me I am able to look 30 40 years down the road when I'm 70 and my body doesn't work anymore because I've beaten it up for almost 18 years now I can't barely remember what I did my first five years of my career. So when I'm 70, if I'm lucky, I'm going to be able to remember the last three. How do I want to remember those? I said it on the Edge and Christian podcast. I did not too long go too. It's going to matter to me when I'm 70 and I'm not mobile and I can't do much else with my life other than think.

I want to think about three things, whether I was a good person, whether I was a good father, and whether or not I lived a life worth living. And that includes what I did with my career. So did I settle for money that I can no longer use, that it's no use to me anymore? It might support my family, great, but it's no use to me selfishly. Or am I going to be able to, when all I can do is think, think back and smile and go, I did it on my terms. I finished the matches the way I wanted to.

I went out of my in-ring career the way I wanted to. Those things later on in life are all that I'm going to be able to think about. And that was the deciding factor when asking to leave. I didn't let them get the number out when they said, we're going to give you a substantial raise. I just went, it's not going to change how I feel tomorrow morning when I wake up. So that is what it ultimately boils down to is not regretting anything in my life later on. That's powerful.

It really is. Or stupid, depending on how you look at it. Some people, it's hard to say, like, oh, my, you walked away from a lot of money. Well, it's easy to say that when you've had money. I don't, I'm not a millionaire. I'm not a millionaire. I still need to work. I still need to go out and work. But I just know that for me personally, and that's just me, that money at that time, it's not going to matter. Are you officially signed with AEW? No, no. We have put nothing on paper. I've met everybody. I've met, which is crazy. I've been doing this for almost 18 years. And I just met the Bucks and I just met Kenny for the first time. I took up with nothing. Yes. At Double-or-N-N-0, we'd never cross paths. Earlier on in my career when I was on the Independence before I got signed the first time,

I never dipped into the States. I was never in any name. I never had a big following, nothing like that. And even after my first time in WW, same thing, I didn't have a big independent following. It wasn't until I got a following until the NXT. So we never crossed paths. I know Cody, I've known Cody since OVW, and it was family very well. And I met the Khan family.

I met Tony and his father at Double-N-Nothing. So we all seemed to get along. We all had a good time. We all had some laughs and we're all very, very proud of the show that they put on. So that was pretty much the basis of enjoying the weekend. Again, I wasn't concerned with contracts at the time. I wasn't concerned with anything like that. I just wanted to enjoy being a part of history that night.

So were you signed to kind of like an indie deal that night for double or nothing? Like a handshake will pay you X amount of dollars for that night? It was a one-off, yep. It was like, hey, here's an opportunity because the card was booked. So, you know, I reached out to a good friend of mine and I said, hey, just so you know, my 90 days expires on this day and he goes, call me when it's expired. He's like, let me know when it's expired, but until then I can't really talk. And I said, okay. And then it expired to 24th.

Hey, man. You know, and he's like, let's do it. Let's go ahead. So he's like, but the card's fully booked. It's been booked for months in promoting it. So I go, I don't care where you put me. Just get me out there in front of Vegas. And I'm sure they'll hopefully, they'll do their thing.

And they did. They showed up in spades or diamonds. So it worked out very, very well for everyone involved. But yeah, that's all it was. Hey, would you like to do this? Yes, absolutely. Was there one specific thing that happened or didn't happen in WWE that kind of was the catalyst for you to go? I don't want to do this anymore.

There wasn't a one specific thing. It was just a combination of missed moments, of missed opportunities. And you have to understand when you sign up for something like that, when you work for a company like that, a lot of the times good things will fall through the cracks. And what I mean by that is a lot of guys are picked ahead of time that before they walk in those doors, I'm bringing this guy in. This is going to be my guy. I'm going to mold him. I'm going to shape him. I'm getting introduced into the audience the way I perceive him.

And whether or not something else on the side is getting popular or getting really rolling or is bigger than what I had initially planned doesn't matter. I'm going this way. I think in NXT at the peak of the perfect 10 character's popularity, I believe he should have had an NXT championship run. Not for the fact that it's a championship and you should win the title. but because the story, and I had pitched it, I had pitched winning the NXT title, I believe, at a takeover on a Saturday, and then losing it immediately at the NXT TV tape,

because it wasn't about the title, it was about the story, it was about the climb, being in WWE, being released, fighting for five years, getting back, almost getting fired again, and then Perfect Ten is born, and then hold on, people start gravitating, and then people start carrying it, and all of a sudden, in bigger matches, marquee matches. They couldn't ignore it. With all your top guys. And then now I'm working Bobby Rude.

And when they asked Bobby, they said, who do you want to work with for the championship? Bobby showed me the text message. He goes, Tide Illinger. And they said, sorry, there's other plans for him. So no.

And I just kind of went, it was about the story that overcoming, the coming back and then finally capturing yes, and then we can go ahead and drop it. We would give everybody a feel-good moment of it happened, he did it. Yeah.

That's, that's, I'll watch that movie. I don't care, who's playing the role? I'll watch that movie all day long. Like, that's, that's inspiring. Those, those moments are what creates movies. So was it, you go into the main roster that, was that maybe the beginning of the downfall for your character? I don't know, I'm looking back at it now.

Yeah, there was no plan. There was no plan in place. You know, I was up there for probably almost two years, and there was never an angle. I was never put in a storyline. The closest I had to a storyline was when I was kind of in the mix with AJ Stiles and Baron Corbin for the United States Championship. But I was put in there to keep them apart for, I think it was five weeks

until they had a pay-per-view match. They had a match at hell in the cell, and I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling. I don't know if he'll appreciate this. But I was put in there for about five weeks or so to keep them apart so they didn't have to wrestle each other every single week, and people would get like, okay, we get it, until the pay-review.

But during that time, people started going, huh, okay, like this actually works. And I was having some good matches with AJ, and he was phenomenal in the ring, and he was great to work with. And then I was working a little bit with Corbyn and we had some ins and outs. And then by the time the Hellnessel pay-per-view rolled around that year, they had still Baron Corbin versus AJ Stiles. And everybody thought we were leading towards a triple threat. And it took both those guys, AJ and Barron, going in not.

on Vince's office and going, you need to put him in this match now. Everybody wants it. Everybody sees it. Let's put him in the match. They went to Vince and had me put in that match that night. Wow. So that's how I got in that triple threat match. I wasn't supposed to be in it originally.

So hats off to those guys. Respect to those guys because they were not selfish at all. They were very, they've always, those kind of guys are always fantastic to work with. The 10 count was so over that I would say it was almost, it almost became like the what chance. Oh, it was a pain in the ass. Because you can't actually hear the refs 10 counts. I can't.

Like, that's a lot of people, I would get, like, I would see it on Twitter and I'd giggle because everybody's like, oh, this 10 stuff's annoying. It's only good if he's doing, if it's in a match. And other people were just like, this is bullshit. Like, and even other wrestlers like this, okay, because it was on Independence, too. It's everywhere. So a lot of wrestlers were just like, hey, dude, we get it. Like, I was like, no, dumb asses.

Like, when I'm on the outside, I can't hear shit either. I'm sitting there going, what numbers? He's on eight. Oh, I'm like, I got to go. I got to get in because I can't hear nothing either. But it's just one of those things where, and I'd like to think it's, you know, I didn't find that character I think until about 14 years in. And that audience, the NXT audience and stuff like that or anybody that had been following my career for a great period of time

had seen me try something and try this and they were just, there's some horrible ideas that I tried and they were just. Were you a dealer at one time? I actually was a car dealer. a casino and I was trying to do, but even I didn't know what the hell I was trying to do. I had a deck of cards and if I flipped the ace of spades, I think it was, which is weird how it ended up double or nothing. But if I rolled that, then you were in, like, you were in shit, but the whole deck was

like aces. I don't know. It was like the dumbest thing in the world and it made no sense and I couldn't connect it. And then I tried like a germaphobe thing and then, but it was like a playoff of like gorgeous George back in the day. It was funny, but you have to be able to whatever character you come up with for you, young kids that are watching this right now that are in the business that are having that hard time finding a character.

Whatever you come up with you, it has to be able to translate into the ring. It has to be able to flow seamlessly into what you do inside the ropes as well. And that was all these different other character ideas. It was hard to bring them into the ring and have it make sense. Yeah. There was a disconnect until this 10th thing took off. And then I think when people finally saw it, they went, okay, we like this. Yeah.

And much to WWE's dismay, or Triple H's dismay, when it came on the scene full-fledged was at takeover I think the end and I worked Andrade Cien And it was supposed to be You know baby face Cien versus bad guy Perfect 10 but people didn't

They weren't ready to boo me And I think they just finally said We like this go with this this this is good This is for you And they just took it to heights No one saw coming And you told this story on Edging Christian's podcast About how you created the character

And it's almost like serendipitous how this came together. It was, yeah, it's ridiculous how it came together because it came together out of anger. It came together out of things I was not supposed to see. Yeah, I remember I was home. I don't know when it was. I wasn't taken to a big event. One year they took like 40 talent and I was not one of them and I was furious because I'm like,

you tell me I'm not in the top 40 here. And this is, I need to say this because this is very important. This is pre-Mat-Bloom era. When Matt Bloom took over, NXT, everything turned for the better, for everyone. So this was pre-his coming in. He saved my career. But when I had, you know, angry, I was at home, and I was talking to one of my best friends back home, and I was just venting left, right, and center.

So this was the Build-Amod era. This was the Build-a-Mond era. Yeah, I said his name. I don't want to say his name. We can call him Humorous. You can call him humorous. Oh, he's humorous. all right. So what had happened was I had seen how they were reviewing talent at the time. So at the end of the

month, they would do reports on talent. And they would send it up so everybody's informed of what's going on down below. And I actually got my eyes and hands on some of them that required everything about me. And there are a few pages long and stuff like that. And essentially, you know, there's a chart. ranked from 1 to 10 across the board in terms of in-ring you get you know athleticism in shape promo you know experience or you get you know attitude things like that and across the boards and every coach has their you know and then the final say the bottom is your head coach at the time he ranks you and then his paragraph what he thinks overall not any of the coaches so every other coach is giving me nines and 9.5s and i'm getting a 10 here and i'm getting a 9 here and whatever like

that and it gets down to the head coach and I'm getting sixes and I'm getting five point fives and I'm getting sixes and I'm getting five point fives and then his description of what he feels overall in terms of where I'm at in my career isn't very flattering as well and I just went all right well I'm dead in the water here I'm dead in the water so I was home venting to a buddy about that and I was just saying this is there's no one there that's a 10 he's got to given this guy a 10 that guy 10 and just in passing I stopped for a second and I was just quiet and my buddy just goes, dude, if there's anybody there that's a 10, it's you. You've been doing it forever. Like, I don't know what else to tell you. And he kind of just walked off and I left me for a

second. I kind of just hung on that statement. I don't know why. And for the next few days, I just it wasn't like I was thinking about it. Yeah. Just like you were talking here, but we would be talking right now and at 10 would pop into my mind and then we would keep talking. But that's how it was. It would just hang out for a while. Right. And I remember going back and I remember talking to a few people about it. One guy I talked about it too was Tyler Breeze because we had a very similar NXT career path and main roster path too

kind of because he was very immersed in finding a character and stuff like that and he had found Tyler Breeze and he's like there might be something with this 10th thing man

start thinking about it we would scheme some ideas and eventually I had a little pitch together so I sent an email to all the coaches at the time everybody said let's get into the conference room and I had t-shirts made up that's all I had

that's all I had was perfect 10 t-shirts and I go and I walked in and I got them all together and sat them all down on the conference room and Dusty Rhodes was sitting to my left and I love Dusty more than anything because for many reasons but one because he was always brutally honest with me

he never steered me wrong he didn't give a shit about politics at least not then and there or at least not with me but I sat down and he said baby listen before you pitch whatever it is you have pitched and I'm sure it's good he goes I just need you to know that at this moment

there's never a whisper of you ever going up to the main roster Wow. And I went, oh, shit. He goes, I just want to be straight up with you right now. That's where you're at right now. And that was huge for me because I'm like, okay, because I have a feeling about this. And I was like, okay, well, coming off of that, here's this idea I got.

And I kind of laid out the perfect 10 and the concept of it because I didn't have any pieces in play in terms of how I was going to present it, but I presented a concept. And it was kind of like, huh, huh, okay. And Dusty, his wheels, he sees me. something. You know what I mean? You can give him a pile of shit and he'll find a way to turn into a brick of gold. That's just how dream works. And he was the only one that was kind of like, oh, you know, everybody else was kind of like, uh, maybe. But I wasn't allowed to do anything for two and a half months. Wasn't allowed to do it on live events. I was told no. I was told no. I was told no on numerous occasions. Hey, can I try this? Hey, can I try this? Hey, can I try this? No, no.

wasn't allowed to do it. So I had, I had planned to leave then. I went okay. And this is how many years ago? Oh man. When did I find the 10th thing? This was probably about 2000 and maybe 14, maybe 15. Wow. So that, I mean, that saved your career. This was me and, yes, 100%. Me and Jason Jordan got pulled into a room and I'm sorry, JJ. We got pulled into the room the same time. They go, okay guys this tag team's not working out which it wasn't we didn't have a hook you both have three months to figure it out wow okay so in three months I found the perfect 10 thing and then I was still told no combination of that with the reports that I'm seeing I'm like I'm dead in the water anyway and I am not getting fired twice so I was getting ready to leave but then fate steps in

however way you want to spin it or look at it and Matt bloom takes over I went up to him the day they'd come back from somewhere again that I wasn't taken to because of the previous and I said hey can I talk to you tonight after and he goes come visit me in my office but please don't leave come talk to me and I knocked on his door and I said look this is and he stopped he says look he goes don't leave whatever you have in your back pocket whatever you have ready to go go you have free rein go just just let it all loose let rip go and I went oh okay and the rest just he started putting me a match with the Finn Ballers and the Nakamuras and the Bobby Roots and the Samoa Joes and

the upper guys yeah conditioning the audience giving me credibility in their eyes plus letting me you know work on the stick that I got going on and work out the kinks and everybody would add little ideas and posters and signs and everybody and then all of a sudden you have something and it takes off. And Matt Bloom, 100% across him. He'd saved my career because I was ready to leave then. Wow. And you coming out at number 10 in the Rumble was obviously very special for you,

but special for us too as a fan. Like to see that all kind of come together was incredible. I didn't think it was going to. About three weeks before, or probably about a month before, I started seeing rumblings on Twitter. Like, oh, it would be funny if, you know, Dillinger came out at number 10. I'd be like, oh, that would be kind of funny. But it's the Royal Rumble.

There's only 30 spots. We have 200 talent. Yeah. And then as, you know, the days went on, it started to kind of pick up momentum. And probably about like, maybe two and a half weeks out. We were in an NXT TV taping and I went up to Hunter and Michael Hayes. And I said, hey, you know, it's not getting huge traction. But what if I came out at number 10 in the Rumble, you know, and I don't have to lack in

last 10 seconds. It doesn't matter. Like, but it's just, it solidifies this number 10 thing. and it could be a pretty cool moment. They kind of went, huh. And then Michael said, well, I don't have the Rumble booked yet, but we'll let you know.

I was like, cool, okay, I feel good. I threw it out there, and Hunter just kind of went, hmm. And I heard nothing for weeks. Now it's takeover, San Antonio. I'm getting ready to work Eric Young. I've heard nothing about the Rumble the next night. And, of course, that's out of my mind now

because I'm working Eric Young. I'm focused on the task at hand. And the way that setup was, that night was you had to go through guerrilla, go through the curtain, you had to walk down a little bit of a corridor, then around the corner, and then out. Well, I was in the middle of that corridor while the package was playing. So I was already out of guerrilla. I just wasn't in front of the audience yet. And as the package is winding down, I'm first out the gate.

Hunter steps through the curtain. He goes, hey, tear it up tonight. You're in the Rumble tomorrow and walks back into Gorilla. And I'm like, what the 10? Oh, shit. And then out I go. So he literally told me the second I was getting ready to go out to have a match at takeover. where he went, he totally decided to spring it on me then.

Did that affect your match? Not one bit. He did it because, you know, as a gag, like, he knows what he's doing. You know, and looking, I couldn't help but smile. I'm like, ah, focus, get your shit together. And then, no, it didn't affect my match at all because it's weird when you go through the curtain. It's anything you're feeling, whether it's, you know, elation or you're sad or you're beat up or you're sore, you're half broken or you know you're limping when you go through it's like a whole new it's something

just turns i can't explain it but everything goes away and you dial in it's really weird it's uh you almost you're looking around but you don't see people it's odd it's odd but when you get that dialed in man so i was that's how i was when those takeover i took those takeovers so though every one of those was for me that was my main event pay-per-view of whatever was around at the time that was my summer slam that was my russomani that was my you know survivor series well whatever it was, I took those first matches of those first, those takeovers were, they were everything to me. So the interview that you did backstage after the Royal Rumble, it was so genuine and authentic.

Like, you could tell that this was like the culmination of your entire career, being able to be out there at the Rumble. It just felt so authentic that you're like, I don't even have words right now. The most important, like being out there was great and seeing the people, you know, and being in the spot that I was in because when I came out it was just pretty much I think Sammy was Sammy and Braun Stromer was really but Braun was standing just by himself so I had a spotlight but it was just before I went out probably about 90 seconds to two minutes I went out because everybody's in guerrilla I'm the next one out and people you know my peers people that I admired and respected

for a very long time worked with for a very long time were genuinely happy for me when they started counting down the clock they started on my peers they I think it was just a lot of them knew what I had been through a lot of them had seen me put in the work and it was just that meant more to me that night than anything else so what you saw in that interview afterwards that was probably what I was carrying me that thought at that moment during that that interview was just the admiration from your peers or from people that you truly admire is second to none. It goes beyond any fame or stardom or anything like that because whatever you leave behind, whatever legacy you have that, those are the people that are going to carry it for you.

You know what I mean? The people that speak about you and how they speak about you speaks volumes to your character. So I take my reputation very seriously and that that night meant the world to me just based on that alone. Do you think that if you never got called up to the main roster if you just stayed in nxte that you'd still be an employee of wb a i don't know because it's tough to say because i feel like your character you know we want to talk about credibility your character in nxte had so much credibility but i was also ready for something if i wasn't going to have the opportunity to carry the nxt championship to see what i was made of to see if i could carry it or not or see if i could make a difference in terms of houses selling tickets and

stuff like that. If that responsibility wasn't going to be laid upon me, then I wanted something more, which was the next step up. I wanted to work with the Dolph Sigler's. I wanted to work with the Seth Rollins, D.A.J. Stiles. I want to work with those guys. I want to see if I can hang. So during that time, towards the end of NXT, once I realized that that championship opportunity was going to come my way, let me up. Let's go. But knowing now what I know, I would have been way better off staying in NXT and I asked to go back but it just wasn't in the cards at that time

going it's tough because NXT has a one hour television show they have 100 talent down at the performance center they only have X amount of spots so real estate down there isn't exactly available yeah so if I was to go back down to NXT what capacity

would it be in I was asked to be a coach three times during my last probably a year and a half in NXT, which I love to teach, love to help. That's why Flatbacks is opening up. Flatbacks Training School, myself and Tyler Breeze, are going to be opening up one starting July next month.

So flatback training at gmail.com. In Orlando? In Orlando, Apaka, Florida, just on the outside a little bit, but that's a cheap little plug. No, please. Plug away. Oh, I'll be plugging. Because there's plenty of people that are watching this right now

that are either thinking of being a wrestler or maybe training somewhere that doesn't give great training. So credibility, credibility. Make sure you get trained by someone who's done something, been somewhere or who, as Tyler Breeze is, currently somewhere. I'm sorry, I got all side. No, no, I was, that was going to be my next question anyway. So, you know, you have all this experience, 18 years in the business. You've been asked to be a coach. Are you taking this knowledge you have now? Is that why you want to open up your own training school? I did a few seminars post-WWE. And it's just, I, I, There's just a lot of small, fundamental things that are very important in terms of moving forward in somebody's career. This business is evolving. It's moving quicker. It's getting bigger and it's moving quicker. And if you're not ready to adapt to that or you are not in a position to learn properly or be trained properly safely, you might get left behind.

You might not even get out of the starting gate. So what myself and Tyler is doing is providing a place. to learn properly, learn what's happening currently, learn kind of taking what we have accumulated in our time in NXT, OVW, prior to all that, our time on the Indies, we're kind of be able to bring everything to the table and go, here's what we can offer you. This is the template that we followed.

We don't guarantee anything. We don't guarantee that you're going to be in WWE, AEW, anywhere else, nothing like that. We can guarantee two things that we will teach you how to keep yourself safe and somebody else safe, and we will teach you how to wrestle. That is it. The rest is up to you. I actually went to wrestling school when I was 20.

I went to wrestleplex Ontario for, it was Eric Young. Oh, I didn't know that. Briefly. And then I was at a squared circle in Toronto with Fuego. And I think that the interesting thing about this is actually taking that step to go through the door and sign up and actually put the work in to be a wrestler is massive. In all the lead up to that, though, what can someone do before they take that huge leap to actually attending wrestling school? It's that leap.

That is the starting point, man. And it was weird. I was on the way over here and I was thinking about some of the questions that you might have asked because we didn't really. Yeah, we're just talking. And it's so weird. You seen the movie of Star is Born? Have you seen that yet? Yeah, of course.

The world's crying at the end. Exactly. Who didn't, right? there is one that movie is phenomenal but there's one part in that movie and there's two two scenes and they happen at the exact same time in that movie so before when he's singing shallow and before she steps out on stage he's singing his verse and lady gaga standing there off to the side and she's looking around like that thought going through her mind is i'm scared to death i'm scared shitless but if this is going to happen this is the moment it needs to happen and then

whatever the hell pushes her to do it her feet start moving she walked up to the microphone then she starts singing the second big moment happens when she kicks into the chorus and that look on her face where like as she's screaming is it's happening yeah the life is changing right now whatever fear you had you are breaking through it's the same thing in beginning any venture in life i can relate it to wrestling is like yeah you're scared shitless to go through the curtain for the first time be worried about what everybody's going to think you're worried if you're going to fall flat on your face, but that's, I would rather fall on my face and know for sure than never take that step. So go through the curtain. And then there's a really

good chance if you're prepared that something beautiful will happen during whatever it is you're going through. If it's a wrestling match and it's clicking and the other guy is on point and you're on point and the story you're telling is hitting on all cylinders, you could feel it happening and everything changes. Do you have like a phrase or a mantra in your life that's really helped your life? Oh, man, I follow motivational quotes on Twitter and stuff like that. Just because I like to read just what people through history have just things that have gotten them through things. I don't really have anything in specific.

I wish I had something very clever, very educational to say. No, this Star is born stories fantastic. It's just you never want, I'm scared to death of regret. I just never want to say, man, I should have. That's my biggest thing at that, if you can take anything away from this, if there's anything holding you back and if it's one of, if you're worried about what other people think, especially people you don't know, chances are you're never going to know them. So why are you wasting your time worrying anyway?

And that's the best analogy I can give from that Star is born. is like that one movement moment in that movie that was worth that whole that was that was an incredible moment i can relate to that the most i think as we wrap this up a lot of people are going to be asking about your tattoo so can you show us and maybe yeah okay so this has been show it off to the camera you guys can uh kind of see this this has been a while in the making so this is the most important piece this is an angel and this is my grandmother's name this is elda she my family never had a lot of money. We never, we still don't.

Came from money. So any, you know, big ventures that I went to Japan or, you know, if I had some barred times in Puerto Rico or Mexico and stuff like that, she was always the one to go, let me know if you ever need anything and I'm there for you. She was always there for me. I would have quit a long time ago if she wasn't in my life because I wouldn't have been able just to self-sustain my, you know, my habit of being a professional wrestler. So that is for her.

that in the middle there is the 10. That is a Roman numeral. Yes. Because no matter what happens in my career, this was one of my favorite times in wrestling. And it was the one thing that allowed me to connect to many, many people, which was huge. This is death holding a clock.

The clock is 238. That was the time I was born. And the way I kind of equate this is, from the second you're born, death is following you. Death is chasing you. So at some point or another, he catches you. So you want to make sure that you live the best life you can, the way you want to.

Because at some point or another, he's going to catch you. So why not go out on your terms? These are Japanese cherry blossoms. There's 11 of them because in 2011 I was in Japan and that's when that big massive earthquake hit. So that's for Japan. And then these are I can never say it right plumeras plumarias you know better than me These are these is a Hawaiian flower and this is for my Peyton because she she she loves her favorite flower and she loves Hawaii so that reminds me of her every single day Wow so oh and then that

That's a you ever seen the gray the movie So there's a poem in there that is recited throughout live and die on this day yes same thing same kind of monarchy as the cold in the clock is, you know, live your life. Live the best life you have every single day and, you know, go out on your own terms. We've learned a lot in this interview. I hope it's good. I don't, I never, I never had a chance to talk about you. So I never got to explain a lot of things, or the perfect end, for that matter. But this is cool, man. I don't get to do a lot of this stuff. So hopefully going forward, I will now. I really appreciate it. Tell us something about Peyton that we might not know. Um, oh gosh.

Because there's going to be a lot of Peyton Royce fans watching. There's a ton of people. Gosh, she's the rock star. She's the rock star of the team going forward. She's the talent. I'll challenge her on the looks part. I'm a damn good looking. She's got a pretty face for a lady's face, man.

Ain't out the prettiest thing you ever seen. That's Mohamed Ali. Just, I mean, when you see her on camera, she's so funny. She's so entertaining. And spoiler alert, when like, She was just over at the house last night, Jess, or sorry, Billy, was just over. That's how they are in real life.

They're like how they are on TV. They're like that at the house and it drives me nuts. But they are so funny together. They're so funny on television, but she has the utmost sweetest soul. She has the oldest soul. Funny little tidbit. Our very first date, I'm a little older than her. our very first date, I told her we're not, you know, we're probably not going to be together along.

Like, we can hang out. We can have some fun. But, I mean, come on, I'm a little older than you. And, you know, chances of us really working out are, you know, you have a life to live. And she just went, that's kind of a real shitty thing to say. Can you do a Peyton impression? She kind of shot. No, no, but the accent, too.

Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. She would, she would, she'd butcher me if I even attempted to do it. But I told her we weren't going to kind of work out. And she went, all right, we'll see. And lo and behold, I was wrong. And she's still proving you wrong. She's still proving me wrong.

And I couldn't be more happy to be wrong. So, yeah, she just got such an older soul. And she's a sweetheart. And, you know, she's my best friend. And that's like, oof, I wouldn't be able to do any of this right now if it wasn't for her. Wow. Can we throw up at 10 as we end things up? That's all I got left.

I got nothing. Boom. So there you go. A very insightful. and interesting chat with Sean Spears and the very first episode of the Chris Van Fleet Show in the books. Thank you for listening. And if you like this, it would mean so much to me if you left a review and shared this

and let people know that in addition to my YouTube channel that the Chris Van Fleet Show here in podcast form exists. So we talked about his contract status with AEW and just three days after he did this interview, he officially signed that deal with AEW. So a big congrats to Sean for that. Thank you to Greenroads for sponsoring the show. Use the code Chris 15 for 15% off your CBD order at greenroadsworld.com. Also a big thanks to Samson for the mics and podcasting equipment that we're using to make this happen.

This has been fun. Thank you for listening. We are just getting started, my friends. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to.

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