Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Spike Dudley on asking Vince for weed, taking insane bumps, ECW, Marko Stunt

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Spike Dudley chats with Chris Van Vliet about his legendary career in ECW, WWE and TNA. He talks about how he originally went to wrestling school to be a referee, he also discusses the crazy bumps he took including having to convince The Undertaker to chokeslam him out of the ring. He gets to the bottom of that infamous story that Bubba Ray Dudley tells about him asking Vince McMahon for weed. Spike doesn't do a lot of interviews, so it was an honor to speak with him. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did! Thanks to Bet Online for supporting this episode! Use the code BLUEWIRE for a new welcome bonus on your first deposit at http://BetOnline.ag Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What's the powerful question. Woo! This is the Chris Van Bleach Show. Chris Van Fleet Show. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. What is going on, my friends? And welcome back to the Chris Van Fleet Show.

I'm your host, Chris Van Fleet Show. This episode is brought to you by Bet Online. I hope that you're doing well. I hope that things are slowly getting back to normal where you live. And if you were an ECW fan like I was, oh man, you are going to love this chat with Spike Dudley. I mean, he really hasn't done a lot of interviews lately. He really doesn't do a lot of interviews.

And you'll hear it in our conversation here. He doesn't watch wrestling, like, at all anymore. But he's obviously, he left a huge legacy, not just with ECW, but in WWE as well. And he opened the door for a lot of smaller guys to come in. And he was able to show them that it's possible to not only wrestle at the highest level, but to succeed at it too. Man, what a chat. And thank you for being with us on this journey as the show turns one year old next week.

The podcast turning one year old. I honestly don't have any big plans for it. I'm just excited to look forward to another year after that. I mean, everything we've done so far this year with the podcast has completely exceeded my expectations. The original idea, I mean, it still is the idea, but the original idea was just to take the audio version of these YouTube interviews that we had and make them available here so you didn't have to keep the YouTube app open if you were walking your dog or running or working out of the gym or driving to work, whatever happened to be doing. So it was like, let's make these an audio version. And here we are, a thousand reviews on Apple Podcasts, you know, currently and consistently in the Apple Top 200.

Here we are. And no complaints. So I don't have a ton of plans for the podcast anniversary. Although I think maybe a slightly updated image for the show. Yeah, that one there, the one we have right now? What exactly my pointing out there? I'm like, I'm kind of pointing under the logo. Like, hey, look at that thing under the Chris Van Vleach show logo.

I just think it needs a little freshening up. So why not do that as a little one-year podcast anniversary present? And thank you, by the way, for all the belated birthday presents. My birthday was on Kane's favorite day, his least favorite day, May 19th. So thank you for the belated birthday presents and the early podcast anniversary presence. and that would of course be these reviews you've been leaving on Apple Podcasts. But also thank you for listening on all the other platforms that you listen on. And thank you to Russ Bus 18 for this review titled Keep It Up.

Well, of course I'm going to keep it up, Russ Bus 18. I don't even use Apple Podcasts, he says. I listen via Spotify, but I thought you'd appreciate the review anyways. Your show is a great listen. Keep up the great word. Well, thank you, Russ Bus. Thank you for listening on Spotify,

but then coming over to Apple Podcasts to lead the review. Amazing. And thank you to everyone else who's been on the journey with us. And, you know, who seems to enjoy just good old-fashioned conversations as much as I do. And that's what these interviews are. That's what this show's all about.

And that's exactly what we have here with Spike Dudley. And I have to thank Matt Taven for connecting me with Spike. Spike Dudley actually trained Matt Tavens. So after I did the interview with Bully Ray, and he told some great stories about Spike Dudley in there. If you haven't listened to that interview, it's epic. It's such a good chat. And I thought, you know, how cool would it be to do an interview with Spike Dudley?

Fingers crossed, hopefully this can happen. And Matt connected us. And here we are. So when the interview started, Spike goes, eh, how long do these things usually go? I said, you know, like 30 to 40 minutes, secretly hoping we could let go for an hour. And he's like, oh, man, 30 minutes.

That might be a bit much. But you'll hear, here. When I tried to wrap up the interview, we just kept going. So what a guy. And he really is a groundbreaking wrestler in so many ways. And the crazy part about his story is he didn't even want to be a wrestler. He loved wrestling, but he was actually going to wrestling school to be a referee. And then they saw the potential in him.

And I mean, literally, the rest is history. So he talks about being part of ECW and being part of the Dudley family, the epic matches he had with Mike Awesome, and the insane bumps that he's taken his career, including having to convince the Undertaker to choke slam him out of the ring. Because he didn't want to, Undertaker was like, no, I'm not doing that. And it was actually Spike was like, no, you've got to do this. It has to be different. We got to do something that makes it stand. You'll hear the whole story. We also talk about the nasty table bump that he had with Lauer's Estants, which I'm sure you've seen on YouTube.

I also asked him about the comparisons that Marco Stunt gets to him. And I was a little surprised by his answers. So you'll hear that. Also, you know, we get to the bottom of that infamous story that Baba Ray Dudley tells about him and Shane McMahon and Bobbara Ray calling Vince McMahon at 3 in the morning. Spike not realizing it was Vince and basically telling him about how. high he was. Do we get down to the, like, what really happened there? So, ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for the legend himself, Spike Dudley. Spike, thank you so much for joining me. You are very welcome. Where exactly are you right now? Looks like you're in like a

wilderness journey here. No, right on. This is my backyard. Hi. Well, it looks very nice. What a nice place to be quarantined. Uh, yeah, actually, knock on wood. Uh, didn't get hit. too hard by the whole quarantine thing in that sense. Both my wife and I can work from home and we've got nice area and yard and kids are not going too stir crazy. So, yeah, we're lucky in that sense. Well, I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to do this. I know you don't do a ton of interviews.

So I appreciate your time for this. Yeah, my pleasure. When you say you're working from home, what's work for you now? I work with Meryl Edge, which is a financial investment company. And what my role is is when people die, their assets, their accounts have to get transitions to their beneficiaries or to the estate or to the trust. So my job is getting the assets to wherever they have to go. Wow.

So it's kind of interesting. I mean, to me, it's fascinating because it's, you're dealing with a lot of grieving family members going, hey, you know, my dad left us X amount of dollars. What do we have to do? But it's a completely, everything is different. I mean, you either have the grieving widow or the, you know, the kids or the squabbling family, or you have the estate attorneys, the trust accounts. Every call, every case is different. And it's a little bit of everything. It's financial planning. It's part. psychiatrist, heart.

But to me, it fits my personality, my, I find it very fulfilling. It's a really cool job. Did you have any sort of background in financials before you got this job? No, well, yes. And no. I mean, when I got out of the wrestling business, I started to get into the financial world. It started off with insurance, like life insurance, which is a horrible job. But you have to get a license with the financial, you know, with FINRA and all that sort of stuff.

So in a sense, it was good because it got my license, my qualifications down. And after a couple of years of that, and that's just hardcore salesmanship. And that's not my thing. But it gave me the platform to be able to get into something different. So I'm licensed. I'm a licensed financial broker. I can buy sell stocks and trade and all that sort of stuff on the stock market. but financial planning isn't necessarily my forte.

My forte is the transition of the assets from the deceased party to wherever they're going. Is there anything that you did in the wrestling business that might have prepared you for this? There's life after wrestling now. Well, no, I mean, it's life experience. Sure. So, I mean, maybe social interactions in a sense. But I'll be honest, every job has a lot of similarities, whether it's corporate in a or it's working at McDonald's or whether you're a wrestler.

There's a hierarchy. There's a food chain within the industry. And you have to learn to play the game. So, I mean, yeah. Are you officially retired then as a wrestler? Oh, God, yeah. I've been retired for years. I mean, well, you know, you know how retirements work in wrestling, though.

Yeah, no, no. I will occasionally come out and maybe referee a match or something like that for, you know, a group like the top rope crew at Fall River. I worked a lot with them when I got out of the WWF. So those guys are really, I'm really tight with them. If they asked me to come out and do something, I'll do something.

I actually did a show with Bobo, with bully a couple of months ago. Just a very one-off thing. He was in town. Hey, do you want to come in and do a show with me? And I figured it was kind of my last chance to do a match with him. Right.

Yeah, so I put him on. And, I mean, it was fun. You worked with them. I forget what his name. It was Eddie Fatu's son. Jacob Fatu? Yeah. Yeah, it was a tag match with him and another local kid. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. So is that, as of right now, your official last match that you've worked? Yeah, I mean, any, you want to call that a match? Yeah, who's important? Yes. I would say my official last match was two CW's farewell.

Are you familiar with them? Yeah, of course. ...survee on Syracuse. Really great crew, loved working for them. They took great care of me. When they did their final show about two, I don't know, three years ago, they pulled me out and said, hey, you did our first show, if you wanted to do our last. And I did that, but I would call that my official last match, you know.

It's, I mean, what an incredible career that you had. Oh, and I appreciate that you're drinking a beer during this interview. That's amazing. I hope it's not offensive to anybody. Offensive? No, I'm doing it's right. I hope you're not offended that I'm not drinking one. Well, that's a good thing.

So, no, it's all good. When you look back at your career, what are, well, what are the, when you, when you see wrestling fans, what's the one thing that they usually want to talk to you about? Did tables hurt? Yeah, you know, it's kind of like you get those typical questions. Yeah. Actually, the biggest, the most common one, is it real? Is it fake? Which, I mean, to me, at this point, it's just a ridiculous question. But that's, I mean, I'm so far removed. I don't get asked that very much.

You know what I mean? Like, the people I know or the people that I'm around, they're aware of my past, they don't think it was a big deal. It's something I did in my past. I don't get hit with it a lot. And I'm off of the whole wrestling media. I'm awful. I've been out of it for so long. I don't really get bombarded very much with it. So you're very much Matt now and no longer spike. Absolutely.

Yeah. I mean, it was a great run. As I said, a great career, fun 20 years doing my thing. But in my side, what I was doing, one was getting the crap beat out of me. You can't do it forever. And then there's more to life. And I'll be honest, I mean, the saving grace really was my wife when I, we connected right towards the end of my career. And she was just like, you're better than this because I was flailing.

You know what I mean? Like I really was. I was working indie jobs and bartending. And it was just going into gutter really quick. And she kind of just, hey, time to snap out of it and do something. And I'll be honest, it was time. It was time. I mean, I had my run, but I was going down.

kind of a rabbit hole. And it wasn't, the business wasn't fun for me anymore. And that was really the biggest thing is there's one thing about taking all of the bumps when you're into it and you, you know, you're gung-ho, but if you're doing it kind of out of a masochistic,

you know, depressed state, it's bad. So, I mean, the tail end of my career was very nasty in a sense. Just doing stupid stuff for stupid reasons. And it was time to get out.

Is there one particular, bump that now every day when you're getting out of bed or when you're walking or doing something that you're like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. No, no, because I'll be honest, I know you can put together the little clips of all the highlights and stuff. I was actually pretty careful. In a lot of ways, I mean, I didn't do anything. I didn't think I was capable of walking away from. One thing that a lot of people, either they don't grasp it or they don't see it, is that I was 140 pounds in there with 250, 300 pound guys. They could be

very careful. They could place me very well. And I did have a certain resiliency. I could take a beating. I mean, but you know, I've got my bumps and bruises but nothing that's there's guys that are a lot worse off than I

am. So I yeah, I mean, I walked away still in one piece. I mean, I'll be honest, the biggest trauma is more the head trauma. You know, it's not the body itself. It's the brain. It's the getting whacked over the head. Recall and memory and things like that are really shoddy. But I work. I try to work on that. But physically speaking, you know, my back is not great. If I sneeze the wrong way or something, then I, you know, I'm a little banged up for a couple of days, but nothing, nothing terrible. I think what's so incredible is looking back on your career, what you did was very groundbreaking. Because, you know, the 90s, there really wasn't anyone that looked like you. There wasn't anyone that was your size. So who growing up did you look up to that kind of had paved the way for you?

Well, I grew up in New England, Rhode Island, so I was a WWWF fan. I'll be honest, as a kid, Bob Backlin was champ at the time. He was kind of my idol. But I, to be honest, I always kind of like the job. Steve Travis. And I don't know. you recall Latin name no look him up okay a little run for a while and I don't even know might actually passed away he team with Rick McGraw for a while but he was a job was like Nasty Jones you know he'd win here and there I always like those guys early very early Jimmy Snook in WWF times okay his first heel run was crazy Ray Stevens was crazy Don Morocco off the charge

I mean, there's too many names. There are all sorts of guys that, you know, you idolize. My first poster as a kid was George the Animal Steel. Wow. Fourth grade, I had hanging on my door, and it was like him with the green tongue ripping up the turnbuckle. And I mean, that was my passion. It was pro wrestling.

That's what it was. But if there was no one that was around your size that was doing this at a high level, what made you go, you know what? I can do this thing. It was a series of circumstances. When I first went to a wrestling school, which at the time was, well, it's now APW from Roland Alexander. At the time, it was a different name.

It was like Pacific Northwest or something like that. I was living out there in California, and I saw a commercial for a wrestling school. So I got into it with intentions of being either a. manager or referee. Oh. No intention whatsoever of wrestling. But the training was we all got in the ring and we all learned to bump and we all learned to, you know, we're all, I was taught the same way as a wrestler, but my end goal really

wasn't to be a wrestler. After a, I'd probably say a month or two, my first class there was like 10, 12 guys. They're all big dudes in the sense. They were all 200 plus and 300 pounds. they'd all dropped out. They all washed out. And I just kept coming back for more. And the trainer, his name was Rick Thompson, who was, he was a worker in the 70s, 80s, out of the northwest part of the country.

Never made a big name, but he worked a lot of the territories and was, you know, it was a staple. He was the head trainer. And I don't forget, I got through like three, four months of me doing this and going through it. He just, he looked at me. He was like, Matt, screw this manager. You're fun to watch. We're going to make you a wrestler. Wow. And I just went, okay. Because, I mean, that really was the real dream. You know, I just didn't think of my size it would ever be possible. I went, okay, cool. So, whatever, I kept training. And then we had a, our first show. And it's funny, because our first show, the first show I ever did was headlined by Chris Candido against Sabu and a tables match.

Wow. And the rest of it was filled up with this APW crew. We filled in the rest of the show, but the promoter Ron Head and it was J.R. Benson, they brought in Candidot and Sabu. And that was my first show. And I was in the opener match against Frank Dalton, who was a big dude through 75, 285. And it was one of those things we rehearsed the match for like eight weeks. but I pulled off some bumps and all that sort of stuff and it was fun and it was good

and we had a good time and then I worked the California scene for like a year, year and a half and I we put together a videotape of highlights and I sent them out to everybody at the time it was WCW and then WWW it was still WWF at Japan ECW I sent them to everywhere

I got all these rejection letters from everywhere But then I got a call. It was actually at work. I was working an office job as a temp somewhere in downtown San Francisco. I got to call and it's task. Hey, we saw your video. Can you get to New York? Yeah.

Sure. You got to grab the country. So literally, well, part of the deal, the job I was working, it was funny. It was a company, it was a corporation. They had an office in New York City. So I went to my boss and said, hey, Can you switch my job from San Francisco to New York? And they went, yeah, no problem.

So I packed everything up. I had into Toyota to sell, drove across the country, went to Long Island, New York. Wow. Got like I pulled into a hotel, and an hour later, Bubba picks me up and takes me to the house of hardcore. And there's, you know, Taz and Perry and then Mikey and Bubba. and it was just kind of like, okay, what do you got, kid? And then they debuted me that Saturday night at the arena, and I worked every show until it went, they left.

Wow. That was it. So, I mean, it was a matter of circumstances, really. I mean, back to the question was, it was a right place, right time. No, I mean, well, Mikey Whiprick had done his thing. Not that he was finished, but at the sense he had already done the little jobber thing. You know, Austin put him over. He was 160 pounds.

I always say 60, because Mikey was always a little bit bigger than me. But he, you know, he was kind of the original, that jobber guy that shouldn't have been in the ring in the first place. Right. The only other person that was remotely was Ray, but he was still down in Mexico. And he was just starting. He'd done the thing in ECW and it was just making the jump to WCW. Hadn't really gone. I mean, he was known, but he wasn't that huge mainstream star that he was.

So at the time that I got in, really, it was Mikey, me, and Ray were the three guys that were kind of like, and at least Ray had a physique. I mean, that was one take. Right. Yeah. Right. But that was it. So, yeah, I think we certainly were groundbreaking material in that anybody that's entertained. and can do it. Yeah. The first time I saw you was an ECW and you were in the ring with Mike Awesome.

And right. And I was like, I can't believe someone's agreeing to do this. Like, were there, with that said, were there ever spots where someone's like, I want to throw you into the crowd or whatever it was? And you're like, I don't, I don't think I'm on board with this one. No. No. I mean, they didn't take liberties with you. You know, like, nobody. he did. Well, a couple times. If you want to get in the stories on that, I'll tell you that later. But for one thing,

when I first got there after like two months, that's when Bam Bam put me over. It didn't throw. And that gave me a certain respect. I also had Bubba always looked out for it. And

always took care of me. Dreamer always took care of me. And Paulie always took care of me. care of it. If there was something I wasn't comfortable with, I'd just say no. But I can't recall anything too crazy that I ever said no to. I mean, it was a measured decision. Sure.

And I look at it and say, can I do this? Can I not do this? I never felt pressure to do something stupid. I will say the one time my first balcony jump, which was with New Jack at Asbury Park, we did the double fall. Yeah. Do you remember that one? It was,

okay, that was the first time I jumped off something other than the ring. And I was scared out of my gorn. Like it was, it was crazy. Plus the atmosphere was crazy. I mean, that double jump was,

I just want to say nuts. But it was the first time I'd ever done anything like that. Now, I didn't say no. thought I could pull it off. Yeah. But that one, I was nervous about it. I really was.

But I fell off. I landed on Bubba's fat belly, and it was no problem. And that's fat with a pH. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, you know, I had a certain, I don't know if it was respect, but nobody, nobody, the ECW crew was tight.

You know, it was a really tight crew. Hang on a second. and we looked after each other. And it didn't matter who you were, me or Mikey or whatever, versus RVD, the top guy, Shane, things like that. We were all kind of on the same page. And I never felt any sort of thing of anybody ever trying to take advantage of me in any way, shape, or form.

But then you look at some of these clips in WWE. And, I mean, if someone's looking at a highlight reel of Spike Dudley and you're getting choke slammed out of the ring by the Undertaker or Brock. I had to convince him to do that. You had to convince him to do that. For the record, he did not want to do that in any way, shape, or form. Wow. Not at all. He was like, Spike, that's crazy.

And I was like, take, come on. Like, one, it's a hardcore match. And I was relatively new. You know, that was probably within my first six months of the WWF for WWE. And I said, look, I can take it. I said, you know, just putting me through the garbage can. You do that to everybody. I said, you got spite.

Like, I can take stuff that nobody else can. Let's do something different. Just choke, say, I mean, before. He's like, no, it's stupid. No, no, dude, do it. It's okay. And to be honest, Taker is a totally cool guy. Tons of respect for him.

When I kind of had to twist his arm a little bit, But then we practiced it a little. He pulled out a crash pad beforehand and said, okay, let me just make sure I can control you a couple of times. And I'll be honest, it didn't, it, I knocked the wind out of it. That was the only thing that it did. You know, and you know, that gut feeling. Yeah, yeah. Aside from that, it was nothing, you know, that was fine.

The things that heard are the little things that nobody knows or catches. What about, what about this now infamous spot with La Resistance, which. should have been pretty typical of you going through a table on the outside. They were just, they were young and goofy and, you know, it's funny, I'd done the exact same spot with Jericho and Christian

about two, three months before. And it was the easiest thing in the world. But they knew to lift me up. And I'd even, I mean, they were talking, they're nice guys,

you know, just they agree. I said, okay, I'm not going to stick my leg, straight up. Yeah. Because that would look really, really fit. So it's on you. You two 250-pound guys to pick up 140-pound me and just make sure that I'm cleared of the ropes. Yeah. And whatever, they had caught in the moment and they, you know, they didn't lift me high enough

and my legs caught the top rope so it would me down. And I'll be honest, I didn't feel that. That was nothing. I mean, it was the most devastating looking thing. I should be down. I should have broken my neck. No big deal. It was, it was nothing. But that was them, that was there being inexperienced and probably, you know, it's one thing to give somebody a spot, but then to go work a match and then say, okay, here's this heavy duty spot at the end of the match. The adrenaline's growing, you know, and there's no big, I just said, I don't, I never felt bad because one, it didn't hurt me. And two, they got their asses handed to them because of it after. So, but I mean, you know, stuff. happens. Stuff happens.

For you to say that's nothing. I don't know if you're human. That's incredible. Well, I mean, I couldn't do it today, but at the time, you know, I hit, I hit the floor. You know what? It sounds crazy, but the head, when I, my head clipped it, that broke my fall enough where it was just like a three foot fall to drop.

And it was nothing. I mean, you know, you sell it, but it, I could have got up and wrestle the two matches. Like, I mean, it was really, that was not a big thing, even though it. It's, you know, in this craziest thing, Spike gets destroyed. It's like, no, I could have got up and, you know, kept going. But that's the business. Well, speaking of getting destroyed, you're a big reason that Brock Lesnar got over as much as he did when he first debuted. You made him look like even more of a monster than he already looked like.

Well, that's one that I kind of feel bad on because the original plan on that was when he comes in and does it, he's supposed to do power bomb me five times. And after the third one, I actually tapped out. I went okay Brock I've had enough so if we look at the video we can see you tapping out I don't I if you really look you might see it okay if you if you watch the full clip of it

he goes down like after the third one he goes down for the fourth one like he's going to do it and then he releases me and somewhere in there I don't even know how I just said okay I've had it I've had enough we just got to take a quick pause from this conversation to thank our sponsor for this episode bet online and there's no shortage of action going on at our exclusive partners betonline.ag sports are

slowly making their way back and bet online is leading the way with the best odds and lines for all ufc nascar boxing and soccer matches and if you need even more they have simulated NFL NBA and ufc simulations all day every day live on their website looking for something other than sports maybe while bet online has hundreds of casino games poker tournaments and prop bets that you can check out so visit betonline.ag use the promo code blue wire for our awesome podcast network blue wire and you'll get a free welcome bonus that's one word blue wire b l ue w i r be that's your online it's your online wagering experts when i interviewed that bully last week he mentioned that a lot of similarities between ECW and AEW. And he said that Marco's stunt is the Spike Dudley

of AEW. I don't know. Are you familiar with Marco's work? I'll be honest, I have not watched a bit of wrestling in a long time. Somewhere I've heard that, the name and the comparison, but I'll be honest, it's no disrespect. I'm not in the business anymore. I don't really watch it. when I turn it on whenever I've seen it I just kind of go eh not my thing that's just it's a life that you used to live and that's it yeah well it's changed a lot what I got into it pre-k Faye you know or you know when KFA was still in existence and my to me it was an improvisational art form make it up on the floor life. And that was where the spontaneity and the magic happened. And now today, everything is so

choreographed that even if it's a cool thing, it just doesn't grab me anymore the way it used to. And I'm kind of sad about that. I mean, I would love to still be a fan. But I just, it just doesn't do it for me. And to be honest, I've got other things going on in my world and my life. And it just, if I need a wrestling fix, I just go and grab a, you know, Madison Square Guard, 1978, put it on, something like that, you know, like, but I'm just not into today's wrestling. It's not my thing. Well, speaking of Bubba, I'm curious, as a percentage, how true is this story he tells about you guys in the car with Shane calling Vince McMahon? He's told this story many, many times now.

I've seen the cartoon. It's 100% accurate. I mean, it was... Well, the cartoon's a bit different from the version that Bubba tells. Bubba tells at the end that you asked Vince for weed because you didn't actually think it was Vince on the phone. Yeah, yeah. I was just like, hey, Vince, we're smoking kind, bud.

What do you got or something? You know, like, I don't even remember what the exact words were. But, yeah, that was the gist of it. Was Tommy and I, we were sleeping in the back. And then, you know, Shane, hey, Spike, here, talk. to my dad. Vince is on the phone. I just, I'm waking up and going, fuck you, Shane, you yeah, Vince, yeah, man, blah. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a hundred percent accurate. The comments on that, uh, WWE cartoon are, oh, you know, this is the reason that Spike must have got

fired. Oh, no. I, I, that, that happened two years before the release. I think Vince got a kick out of it, to be honest with you. I mean, it was not a big deal. It was just, it was funny. It was like four in the morning and just hokey stuff stuff on the road that no that was not a reason for being fired Vince laughed yeah like I was scared the next day whatever it was there next time I saw him I kind of shied away he's like ha ha spike young man and that was it you know I mean I always got along with Vince that was not a big deal how much did your career shift or change when the Dudley is left for WWE and you were still in ECW at the time well a lot well I mean actually I wouldn't say a lot because I mean they were heels I never you know

since they combined whatever it was like 96 I was always against them so so I can take away one of my main opponents it what I would say is it put me more emphasis on me as a singles wrestler and that was good for me professionally you know it gave me a little chance to kind of shine on my own. You know, like, it's, it's so funny because you talk, the Mike Awesome run, which is Mike had tossed me around like the best of them. That was great. We're working with Rhino.

Rino was awesome. Loved working with him. But there's like little matches in between those that to me are the highlights of my career that are never, ever going to be. Like which ones? There was a three way with super crazy inguido. which I think made it to TV. I can't even remember,

but it was, it was cool. I mean, it was just a really good match. It was a really good mix of hardcore and wrestling and things like that. And more of the fact,

at that time, after Bubba Devon left and Taz left, Shane, I think, had gone out. You know, so there was a lot of, like, it pushed me into kind of this veteran ECW role,

which was, which was cool. I mean, I didn't, it was no, I just, you do what you got to do. You work with somebody, you work to get whoever you're in the ring with over and you move on. Yeah. So, I mean, I think I learned a lot by kind of having to stand on my own two feet in a sense. Yeah. I think I had some good work during that time.

But, I mean, they were, I mean, keep in mind, they were always the opponents. I mean, always until we went back to WWE and then we teamed up for a little bit. But, I mean, the entire ECW time, I was wrestling against Bobbo, against Yvonne, against Big Dick. It wasn't like we were working together. Right. And when you did have that run in WWE with them, I liked that you had like a, you had the heel run. You were the boss. You were basically.

Yeah, that was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Whose idea was this to, I mean, your character. got changed up quite a bit. You were the underdog for so long and well now you're you were this completely different character. What happened with that? It's kind of a funny story. I got hurt. I think I had a spiral fracture in my leg and it put me out for about four or five weeks. Something like that. And, but it wasn't a terrible break. So while I was off,

I got into shape and I got a little cut up. I mean, not, you know, nothing compared to these guys, but I got into shape. I had some definition and all that stuff. When they put me back on the road, I came back to Vince and I just said, Vince, look, I'm on my own. You got a cruiserweight thing. Yeah. What more do I need to do to show that I, you know, like I'm loyal, I deserve a chance.

He went, okay, but let's come up with something. And I'll be honest, I don't know if it was Paul Lee. I don't know if it was probably. I always say, okay, let's do a heel around with Spike. And they put me with Ray. And Ray is just a phenom. Ray is like without a doubt, one of the greatest workers of all time. Knew how to work the angle, knew how to do it.

And we did the thing. And Bob and Devon were willing to step down and put me in the, as a highlight. You know what I mean? Like making the focus while they stepped down a little bit, which God bless I mean that they're the best they always have been they've always taken care of me and they were more than happy to do it

and that was a fun run I it's funny I wouldn't say it was like a year or two I did an autograph session Chavo Jr. was there and I remember thinking like that time I was working because that's what started all was me doing the singles run with Chavo

and Chabo Senior. Do you remember that? Of course yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I won the title which is a great run. Like it was a hilarious thing. But it was the first time I had to work offensively. Because like I'd never, all I did was go in there and get beat up. And if I got lucky, slip a nut shot, hit the ass and drop one, two, three. But the rest of it was just me getting beat up. Yeah. Then I had to go and put out a little bit. And it was fun. I mean, it was different.

It was a lot of work for me in that sense because I wasn't used to it. But I'm working with Chavo with Ray, Kidman, Jamie Noble. all of those guys, I kind of had to step up the game a little bit. So it was a fun run. It really was. Are you aware of the fact that, you know, you have paved the way for a lot of guys who may be five, eight and under whose weight begins with a one and not a two? Jungle Boy and Marco Stunt wouldn't be doing what they're doing now if it wasn't for someone

like you. I'd love to take credit for it. I mean, I think it would have happened one way or another. If I had any role in that, I'm obviously. I really am. But I think the one thing that I stress, when I was with top rope wrestling, when I was teaching and things like that,

is know your role. Even though it was 140 pounds, I never tried to wrestle like I was a 250 pound. And I think that's one thing that gets lost in these choreographed things is that little guy, big guy, it still has to make sense. Just because I can body slam a 250-pound guy

doesn't mean you should. You get what I'm saying. So I appreciate that. And I mean, I really do. I made, if I opened the doors from other guys, great. Just make it make sense. Tell a story, you know? Like, make it.

There's a whole reason why Davy and Goli works. But if Davey isn't Davy, Davy's trying to act like Goli, it's not going to work. And I'll tell you, who taught me that, Van Ben, Ben Bigelow. Like, that was, I mean, I ran with him for like two months during that whole throw in the audience thing. But he taught me so much about how a little guy should work. You know, and it was just, it doesn't matter. You get the crap beat outy, but he told me this one time.

He goes, I should never have to pick you up off the floor because you're always on your knees trying to get up. Oh. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't a matter of you can sell, but if you sell dead, it's too much. As a little guy scrapping, you're always trying. You're always reaching for the ropes. You're always trying to pull yourself up. And that was the story that I understood my physique, my size, my role.

I wasn't supposed to win. I wasn't supposed to beat anybody. I was, it was just, here's this guy that's not in there, but he's trying his best. And he's survived. you know and I occasionally pulled out a couple of wins here and there so when you went to TNA whose idea was your name changed there to brother run I think that was Jared um Jeff I I'll be honest I have nothing against TNA but that was not a fun time for me um I just didn't like the company in a sense like it was it was a cluster there was no direction um I don't know who came

up with it. Someone just, hey, run, and I went, okay, yeah, that's fine. I think it was Jeff, to be honest. But I don't hold me to that. It might have been, it might even be being stupid and saying something like that. But I think Jared, I'm pretty sure that Jeff was the one that kind of said, what do you think of this? And I just went, okay, whatever, you're paying me. I don't care.

Call me whatever. I just feel like it's a missed opportunity to have a better name. Brother Run's not a great name. No offense. No, I wasn't. No. But, you know, who cares? My philosophy at the time, it doesn't really matter.

They were still all saying Spike when it came down the aisles. So, I mean, you can't change that. And at that point, I was pretty much mentally, I was done with the business. You know, I was out there doing it because that was the only thing I knew how to do. So, yeah, I'd go to Orlando every week and do a taping. But again, it's no knock on TNA. the guys were great and things like that but I just I didn't like I didn't like the way the company was run the direction the lack of direction I'll never forget it was one

time that kid from the wonder years the little guy the older brother from the wonder years oh yeah I know I know you're talking about yeah yeah I remember like I we're down there Orlando studios and he comes up to me and he's like okay Spike, I'm producing your match or whatever he called me running. I'm producing your match. And I'm looking at him going, like, I know you. I was like, oh, wait, you're the guy from the Wonder Years. Oh, you're an actor.

What the fuck do you know about pro wrestling other than being a fan? Like, I mean, and I'm just, and here's a guy that's producing my match. And here's a nice guy. And I'm not trying to diss him personally. But that was, if you're not in the business, you can't tell other people in the business how to do the business. It just made no sense to me. It was just weird. It was really odd.

It was really weird. Was there something specific that made you sour on the business? Or was it just a collection of things over the years? Getting released from New York screwed my head off. What was their reasoning for releasing you? Well, they released everybody. They did the massive thing. They just did a giant turnover.

And that was it. I mean, it was business. for them. It was what it was. But during the last couple of months, I could kind of sense it. And I had offered a number of times producer, trainer, video editing. Like, I was coming to and going, look, I really love this company. I want to be a part of this company. I know my time in the ring can't last forever. What can I do? after the ring. And I was told, point, plant, like, you're fine, you're good. We're going to take care of you. You know, if you want to do the editing thing, we can take care of that and da-da-da-da-da-da.

And you get a phone call, hey, you're let go. And it emotionally, mentally destroyed me. And maybe I was a pussy for not just manning up and going, okay, that's the business guys get let go. But it threw me in a tailspin. And I was drinking and partying and running my mouth. and being bitter and angry, instead of just sucking it up and moving on. So, I mean, what they did was business. I took it personally, and that's taking it personal is not good for business. You know what I mean? So I did not react to it well and I did not handle it well.

And it really put me down in this tailspin of, you know, I went to TNA for a couple of years and it was miserable. and then did the Indies and destroyed myself until I just kind of hit rock bottom and said, I've had enough of this. Goodbye. And then I said my wife came along and then started a whole new world and life is good.

So, I mean, it was a great thing for the longevity of Matt Heisen, but for Spike Dudley, it was, that was it. I mean, once I got released, that, that, it screwed me up really bad for, a good number of years. But if that hadn't happened, you might not be sitting here now with the job that you have now and everything that you have, you know, going for you.

I would not have my wife. I would not have my two kids. I would not have a, right, as you said, a stable job. I mean, I'm ecstatic that I never have to go on an airplane again. I'm ecstatic that I'm living in my town. I got my, you know, like, I honestly, life has turned out great. but those couple of years were rough. Do you think that, you know, we talk about you being groundbreaking and, you know, kind of

breaking the mold and setting an example for some of these guys now, do you think that with that said, there was a spot in the WWB Hall of Fame for you? It's not my decision. I don't know. I could, I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. I don't know whether I pissed off too many people.

or offended people or I just my work rate was not call a theme I I don't know I don't care I don't make those decisions you know what I mean like I you know like I was very happy for Bubba and Devon yeah I really was and I actually watched that I watched their speech and it was it very moving that they opened it up by talking about me and putting me over and that was you know I that brought a tear to my heart eyes wherever tears come from but I For that, me, Hall of, I don't know. That's not, I don't think.

Well, I think you're very deserving. You're very deserving with the career that you had. Thank you. I appreciate that. If it happens, great. If not, okay. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's not going to change where I am in life now. Which seems like a pretty great place. And I want to be super respectful of your time. I know you've got kids to look after. And they do. Yeah, we got to watch the end of school of Rock. We started it last night. They were getting into it.

Well, there you go. So this has been great. Hedgehog. Oh, what a great with Jim Carrey? Unbelievable. Yeah. Probably watch you like 48 times, but. So.

This has been great. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. And, you know, I know you don't do a ton of interviews. So it's great to hear where you're at. and see how you're doing. Yeah, life is good. Life is grand. I wish I could tell you more about the current business,

but I don't know anything about the current business. I hope everybody's doing well and the business thrives. It must be tough during the virus. Well, they're still having live shows every week. With no audience? With no audience, yeah. So, WWE is taping at the Performance Center. And AEW is taping at Daley's Place,

which is attached to where, the Jacksonville Jaguars play. And AEW's been putting wrestlers in the crowd so that there's at least some sort of noise in the audience. That, I'll be honest, that's a great idea in increasing work rate. Do you ever watch Terry Funk versus Jerry Lawler, the I Quit match with nobody in the audience? Yeah. Do you remember that?

Yeah. Okay. So do you remember watching these guys work? punching, kick in with no sound, no anything, it makes you work harder. So, I mean, if anything good comes out of it, I would say I hope it increases work rate. I specifically remember that empty arena match and I remember Rock versus mankind, half-time heat. And remember that one?

Yeah, I do. You hear everything, every punch, every stump. Right, right, right. And it's not even a question about beating each other up. making it making it work. Yeah. Like audience covers up so much.

Yeah. Whether it's a live, just a, you know, a house show, whether it's on TV, having that crowd around can cover an awful lot. Because,

I mean, I remember, don't mean to carry on, but we used to talk nonstop. Like, we tell jokes to each other. Like, while we were punching each other

on the face, hey, why the chicken cross the room? Boom, boom. You know, I mean, you can't do that

when there's no audience. You know, right. I mean, I mean, hopefully something good comes out of it. So that's cool. Looks like you finished your beer, too. So we basically hung out for, I'm going to have to go get a refill.

We hung out for one full beer. Well, I started a couple of sips before we came on. Okay. And you drank slowly because you were telling stories. There it is, down the hatch. We're good. We're good. But, hey, do me a favor.

Let me know where this thing airs. I will. Yeah, it'll be in my podcast. very techno savvy. Well, I'll text you and let you know. But again, I really appreciate your time, Matt. And I'm so glad to see you're doing well. I am doing great.

Tell Taven, I said hello. I can talk to them. And, yeah, and keep me posted. And I hope you get some ratings or something out of this. I don't know. What do you get out of hits or views or? Yeah, views. Yeah, views downloads.

I mean, for me, it's just a chance to hang out with someone who I have a great amount of respect for. And then, you know, if other people want to watch it, That's cool, too. Be careful because now they're censoring Twitter. So you've got to, don't go too far to the right. They might pull you off. Okay. I'll just try to be right down the middle.

What a chat with Spike Dutley. Thanks for hanging out with us for this conversation. Please take a screenshot. Tag me. Let me know you're listening. I retweet or re-story those all the time on Twitter or Instagram. If you don't follow me, I'm at Chris Van Vleet. So share it on there.

Share it with your friends. Let people know that this even exists. I'm sure there's still a lot of people that have no idea this exists. I don't blame you. So please help spread the word. And I found it so interesting that wrestling is just a chapter in Spike's life. I mean, it ended, and he's kind of closed the book on that. And pretty much opened up a new book on that one.

And he's moved on to other things, which I find really interesting because a lot of wrestlers, wrestling's not just part of their life. It becomes their life for the rest of their life. And there's no judgment here either way. You know, if you're one of the other, it's just so fascinating to see that Spike Dudley has gone, wrestling was the thing I did. I loved it. That's great.

And now I'm doing this other thing that I love. And that's great too. And it's just so nice to see that he has this great job now. He looks back very fondly on his time in wrestling, but ultimately he's looking ahead. I mean, I guess he looks back fondly at everything except the TNA time. That was an interesting story there. So if you haven't subscribed to the show yet on whatever platform you listen on, please take a second right now to subscribe because we've got lots more interviews coming

up soon like Deanna Parazzo, who's going to be joining the show next week, as well as another guest to be named later. I don't even know who the guest is, but we have another guest. It's going to be a big chat. So Deanna's coming up soon and then someone else. And this quote I saw this week really spoke to me. You always hear that, you know, about glass half empty, glass half full. This quote says, people who wonder if the glass is half empty or full miss the point.

The glass is refillable. That's good. That's good. Enjoy your day. Hope you enjoyed this one. And we will see you next week. Woo! The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary.

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To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.