Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Swerve Strickland On Making AEW History, Hangman Page Feud, Brutal Matches, ALL IN, Sting, Bryan Danielson

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Swerve Strickland (@swerveconfident) is a professional wrestler currently signed to AEW. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Houston, TX to discuss becoming the first black AEW World Champion, levelling up in AEW, wrestling Sting at All In 2023 and Bryan Danielson the year after, his brutal matches with Adam Page, the needle spot in his steel cage match, why he re-signed with AEW, and more!  Please support our sponsors!   PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/?ref=tibcloux FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFFSTASH: Go to https://get.stash.com/INSIGHTto see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures   SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV2025 Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount   NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup!  TIMELINE: Go to https://timeline.com/insightto get 10% off your order of Mitopure!   VUORI: Get 20% off your first purchase! Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at https://vuori.com/cvv   ROCKET MONEY: Join Rocket Money today and reach your financial goals faster: https://rocketmoney.com/cvv MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/CVV and use the code CVV to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF   ZOCDOC: Instantly book a top-rated doctor today at https://zocdoc.com/insight   BONCHARGE: Use the code CVV to save 15% off your infrared sauna blanket at https://boncharge.com/cvv   BLUECHEW: Get your first month of BlueChew for free with the code CVV at https://bluechew.com   For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.    Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris You're looking bigger Are you bigger? I am definitely bigger And it's like Miserable Maintaining it Maintaining it

Because like There's times where I'm like In bed And I'm like I gotta get one more Something And you have to get the calories Yeah

To get like Because then like I remember Because Applebee's my go to I got like This is 1145 12 Most places are closing down So I just like

Let me order just like A salmon And a spare I guess, and rice. And it gets there and I'm like, I don't even have the energy to like use a fork. I'm just picking at it with my hands to my mouth and like in bed, just feeling like,

are you trying to hit a certain calorie number per day? It's more like just eating whatever's in sight. Even if I'm like- Oh, you're at that point. Yeah. Like a real dirty bowl? Yeah. Anything that's in front of me, I just like, eat it, boom, eat it.

And I'm, he's like, don't even worry about like, calorie or counting a macro or nothing, just eat it. I don't know. You don't look like a guy who's just eating everything inside. Well, we train so hard. Like my personal trainer is like training me like, like grinding me like crazy in the gym. And like so I'm doing like massive amounts of volume. So he's like you're not going to get fat.

Your genetics is just not going to allow you to get fat. I've been training for two and a half years. And you never, even when you dirty bulked, you never got fat. You just got big and maybe bloated at times. but you're not going to get fat. So she's like, you just got to eat past that. How big are you trying to get? I don't even know.

I didn't know I can get this. I didn't even know I could get to this. Yeah, you look big. Oh, thank you. So it's like, it's like, it's honestly like, oh man, like I got to a point. It was like, I didn't even know I could do this. What more can I do? So it's like, that's the addiction to it.

It's like, what more can I possibly do? What a great mindset to have just in life, right? That's how my whole career has always been. I never thought I'd make it to this point. So I was like, oh, now that I did it. I was like, what more can I do? It's like, so it's like finding more rooms and doors in a house that you figure you've already discovered everything about it. And you're just like, oh, what was more down here?

Oh, so now you open up this and it's like, oh, we have a basement. Hmm, let's go. You explore the basement. And you're like, oh, there's a cave in the basement that takes you to a tunnel. That takes you to, I'm like, there's so much more to the house. So that's what, like, the, that's what keeps my journey always moving. moving forward. I'm just always trying to discover what more I can do. Happened in music too. I just wanted to make a song. Yeah. It was like, hmm, what if I made a song with a feature?

What if I made a, what if I write the whole song? What if I tried this? What if I tried this? And I'm like, what if I did a video? Oh, what if I did a video off, like, in like another city? And like, what if I get rented like a space to do a video? So it just just kept evolving into like other things, you know? The gym actually helped me with that too When I really started going crazy and that It was like I never He was able to bench 225 multiple times You know, I was like, I get two reps hard

You know, but like Yeah, with the spotter Yeah, and I was like, oh, he got me to 315 And I'm like, jeez, three plates. Yeah, so I'm like, huh, what more can I do? And then so like, I just, that's where I get the addiction to just keep trying To do more and do different.

So I'm not ever competing with anybody else. I'm competing with myself. This reminds me of like, and. And is a sentence in itself. So like, you know, someone can say something. You can say, and. Yeah. And then more gets added on.

And then even more gets added on. And not to mention just the fact that like it builds your confidence a little bit more. Sure. So now the stuff you were afraid to do like two steps before. Yeah. That's easy. You're not afraid of those things anymore. You've truly leveled up.

Yeah. So like, why was I afraid of that? this like why was I nervous why did I just get like this anxiety this anxious feeling of like like even trying to do this like now like you could just you just do it now you know um I try to instill that in my kids too a little bit more I'm like no push harder push more yeah push more but I'm afraid I'm like once you push past that this isn't even going to be a fear anymore now you're going to get addicted like what more can I do now the fear becomes like a joy I think we hear this phrase get out of your comfort zone and people just think of it as a phrase yeah

and not actually, like, putting into practice of, like, what are the things that actually make you feel uncomfortable? Yeah. Go, do those. And then realize that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable anymore. Yeah. It's facing fear in a sense. But, like, it's not always the feeling of fear.

It's just a feeling of comfort. And some people, I think people confuse the two. It's like, you know, you're not afraid of it. You're just uncomfortable. There's nothing to fear in any of this stuff. Like, especially when you, like, that's why I, Relate to Fight Club is my favorite movie so much. I relate to it so much because once you hit rock bottom,

like now there's everything you can do. Yeah. Like once you go so low that you can't go any lower, all the fear is gone. Like there's no like, like, oh, what's the worst that can happen? It already happened. You've experienced it. And if you're still around and you're still alive, you can still make money, you can still make things happen at rock bottom.

Now you have no ceiling. What was that for you? your professional career. What was that rock bottom moment? Um, I would, like, I would say just like, just the independent grind in between like the 2011, 12, 13. It was just like, it was the point of just spinning wheels over and over again. That's also when my both my daughters were born. And so it's just like, okay, now it's like making very little money, no car, two daughters to feed, two different households. And it's like, but I still have the military, but like, I have, This is all these commitments.

Yeah. So I was like, but for the, it took me like a good couple years to really find my footing and my groove to really get into, to like, just to maintain. Like, okay, that's settled. That's handled. All right. This is still behind, but I can figure something out. I think that's where it was.

It was just like the process of figuring it out. When do you think you actually had a chance to finally catch your breath with that stuff? Oh, Lucha Underground. Okay. Yeah. I love Lucha Underground. Yeah. I love it so much.

much. Yeah, but I, like, I had a good, like, also I always tell people, ask for help. And there's nothing wrong with asking for help. People are so, like, you know, ashamed or, like, have this pride and thing about, like, no, I can stand on my own feet. Like, I don't want to ask for handouts. I'm like, no, asking for help is not, no problem. Like, you can't do this by yourself either. You know, not, like, nobody can build anything on themselves. Like, ask for help. Yeah. So as you're looking ahead and you're saying you want more and trying to figure out what more can you do what do you think that looks like for you oh right now yeah um and like the world is the oyster now at this point you know so it's like uh i want i want to be i want i want like music on

the freaking time square built like you know what i mean like advertised and stuff like that i want like i want to compete with billboards i want to do like and people are going to look at it I was like, no, that's like, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, like, outrageous for me to think like that. You're not that good at this. You're not got that good at this. I know I'm not. That's the journey.

Like, I like, um, the fact that I don't know everything. I chase the fact that I don't know everything. I chase the fact I haven't achieved everything because that's part of the chase. So is the focus mainly on music now? Is it also on wrestling? How do you, how do you split the time between those? Uh, they, uh, they, uh, I, feel like they're kind of one and the same now.

Like, I've done so much with wrestling that's like, that kind of got me into the doors with the music in a lot of different ways. You know, like, artists look at me a little bit more, like, in a unique kind of, like, space. Because I know what I'm talking about because I do it weekly on TV. So I was like, okay, he's not full of shit. So, like, there's something here to it. Now we just got to see if he's good. But I've done all the work and, like, done all the work and, like, done all.

all the writing camps I've like studied and like performed and I've actually like you know competed in songs with like super emcees like Mickey Fax who is like shout out to Mickey Fax who's like literally teaching college courses on hip hop with Lupe Fiasco and competing against some of the greatest lyric that's out there in the world you know um getting like nurtured and tutored by him and John Connor who's like a shady aftermath former artists you know So like, TZs, like, just like all these guys, like, Benny the Butcher, like, I had to compete on songs with these guys lyrically. So I'm not like, once again, it's uncomfortable to like step in a booth. Like, I'm really not that season yet.

But these guys have been doing it for like 15, 20 years have gold plaques. And on songs with Jay Cole, you know, songs with like Eminem and Dr. Dre produced records. these guys who I'm on songs with. Yeah. So that's an uncomfortable room I have to put myself into to feel like I can compete to have these dreams and aspirations to do like the stuff that I really want to do. So at this point, music is probably still a challenge, right? You're still trying to figure that out.

And with great respect to your amazing career in the ring, wrestling's probably coming a little bit more easy now. Yes, yeah. Because once wrestling more became just a mental thing, that's where I was like, okay, think I've, like, I've maxed. I wouldn't say I maxed it out because there's always more to learn because the business is always ever changing.

Yeah. And styles and all that stuff. But now it's like what looks good for a camera. Now I feel like I have that. That's locked in. The wrestling ability is always going to be tougher because I'm going to get older. My body's going to get little banged up more. My body's going to go through changes and shapes and all that stuff.

The style is going to change. It's going to become a little bit more demanding every time. time. So it's more just keeping up with the body. But as long as you know how to work a camera, you're always going to be on TV. You're always going to have a match. You're always going to be used. So like once I've figured out mastering the camera is where I figured it. Like that's where I got it. Do you feel like you have to compartmentalize music is one part of your brain? Wrestling is another part of your brain? Like are they both able to be on at the same point in time? Um, there's times where like, uh, I will find patterns that work for both.

Oh, like what? Uh, like rhythm. Okay. Being in sync and the beats and stuff. Timing. Knowing when to like have space out like a snare to like you're dropping your like your punchline and stuff or in like catching the one and the two. Same thing with like footwork in the ring. You know, it's timing.

It's the space. It's like if we're all in the same beat. like the Ospreys and the young bucks and stuff. That's why we mesh so well because we're all on sync and on the same beat. It's almost like an orchestra. Like I can kind of count him in on when things to like catch on and stuff.

And then like music is like being in sync with somebody else on a record too. And like knowing when to catch a beat when knowing when to like, man, it's just, it's, then when you're performing the music is very similar. When you're performing the crowd and knowing when to like control the crowd, the crowd interaction in the same way, you know, get them to educate them on what the song is,

who's on the record, when the beat drops, get them in sync with this. It's very much, very similar. So sometimes I'm like music is coming into play when I'm doing the wrestling. Sometimes wrestling comes into play when I'm doing the music. comes into play when I'm doing the music. Do you take your inspirations for wrestling from music at all? I feel like the way you look. Like you come to the ring like you look like a hip-hop star.

Like that's, I definitely took like, oh man, I would say there's been vignettes I've used from music. Okay. To go into wrestling. Yeah. In a sense. Because I'm like, oh, man, I love the way like Kid Cuddy has a great way of like entering a show or entering like a music. video I use them same camera angles or I've used horror movies you know of course like in certain themes and like ways to like put it brings life to a scene into a backstage or into a match I've used

like certain cameraways and like like the long hallway scene type deal like crawling yeah been used in like when ricochet was like getting you with scissors and stuff I've used those scenes and stuff so then music-wise, it's like, it's all about how certain, like, sonic sounds and frequencies make you feel. And so it's basically about matching those. Like, how do I want you to feel about these words that I'm saying? How do you, I want you to feel about these actions that I'm doing into this ring? How do I want the crowd to feel?

You know, what's the response? So I would say, like, all, a lot of those things. There's a lot of different, like, avenues and media that are playing on my head at the same time. when it comes to music, wrestling, like the camera, all of it. What was the inspiration behind that photo of you backstage after you won the AEW championship? Oh, that was a Ryan Loco. He was just like, I've been wanting to do this shot with you for so long. So he just, like, got me in the corner and, like, there was the bathroom scene and did the Kobe style photo.

Yeah, it was a, yeah, it felt a lot like a, yeah, it felt a lot like a, yeah, style photo. And, like, I wish, like, because Kobe was wearing a Jeff Hamilton jacket, which she, He's the one that usually does a lot of my jackets. I wish I had the Jeff Hamilton jacket that I was wearing in that photo. Then it kind of matched, but it was like I didn't have that one at the time. But it just felt like a moment in time. You just want to capture like a time capsule. Yes.

And like that's what also became a thing where like I'm wearing certain, like when I wear certain gear and wear certain things, I want the fans to know, oh, he wore that gear during this moment. Oh, he wore that gear on this match. It's like the gear matches the moment. And the stories being told in this moment in this match. You know, the, the, um, Majin Super Boo was being, Rickachet at Revolution, you know, predator, buck hunting, anarchy in the arena, you know, um, Mr. Terrific, Forbidden Door, Okada.

So all these, like, now they, now I'm signing these figures at these conventions and stuff. Um, people, like, bring these up as like, I remember exactly where you were. When you did this and wore this one, you wore this where you faced, at Wembley, then you wore this one, I'll never forget it in Dynasty. This is the Dynasty gear. So, like, I always made sure, like, I kind of time encapsulate my gear. So much has happened since you were on the show. I think it was about two years ago. Yeah. 2023, you were on the show. And it was right before Texas death. That's right. It was right before that. And you sat across from me and you said, I'm going to be the first ever AEW black champion. And you also

said, I'm going to be one of the next AEW champions. Yeah. Why were you so sure of that? I wasn't sure. But that's something like I was just putting in the universe because I felt the momentum that I was gaining at the time. I was like, it has to be some point soon. It has to be. I was never like sure.

I was never reassured. It wasn't even written in my contract that I had to be able to be able to be by X amount of time. I didn't have any of those specialties that went like, you know, like I didn't have any of the commitments. I didn't have any promises. It was just like that's something I have to believe. and if I believe it, the fans will believe it.

And if the fans will believe it, that's what gets you to those championship moments. I feel like you've carried yourself like a main event or the entire time you've been in AEW. And that's not something I think we saw from you in WWE. Yeah. Why do you think you're presented in such a different way here? I would say like this. I explained it to somebody. It's like you can have a talented quarterback drafted number one.

If he's not in an organization that allows him to be a franchise quarterback, he's not. going to play like a franchise quarterback. So your quarterback is your quarterback and your talent on a team is only as good as your organization allows you to be. If they don't allow you to be as great as you possibly could be, then you're not. Like imagine like a lot of these like great quarterbacks that came through in franchises that were, if they were had Bill Belichick. This sounds like the Cleveland Browns by the way. And I'm a Browns fan. So, you know, you all have history of doing this. But you know, Like, it could be like even like, um, uh, Caleb Williams. Like, you know, like he's, he's turning it around a little bit more.

Sure. There's this season. And, you know, but like, imagine if you had like a great organization, like, a cam ward on a great organization would probably be front run a rookie of the year. Yeah. Right. As we speak right now. You know what I mean? Like, um, is, that's how I felt like in NXT.

Like, the organization wasn't surrounding me to position me as a. franchise player because they didn't believe it. And for like certain things, it's like, I don't know if I gave them the, I don't know if I gave them the belief anyway at the time. I gave them the talent. That's why they had me there. You know, they have talented people there, but the belief is a different thing. You know, they just knew they had a prospect. When did you start believing that in yourself? It takes like losing the job to really believe it. Also feel like I was too giving. I was a, especially when they handed me hit row. Like, I felt like

Triple H wanted me to be LeBron on the heat, scoring, not passing the ball. That's why I don't think we did as well. I think I should have gotten the ball and been the LeBron with the team. You know what I mean? You know, like when he lost in the finals with the Mavericks,

I feel like I should have been like, no, give me the ball. I felt like that was one of those moments. Like, I didn't take that initiative enough, strongly enough and been like the franchise guy. So when you got let go from WWE, did you start to go, I've got to change something. Yes.

Right? Yeah. At that point, I got to elevate, yeah. You didn't have a job at that point. Yeah. Like,

I knew like there was like feelers that were preaching out with AW. I kind of heard through the rapevine about things like that. But it was just like, if I'm going to go over there, I have to be the one to take the ball. I have to be the one to lead. I have to be the one this. Like, undeniably, this is a guy that we're putting all of our resources around and we won't allow to fail.

I just feel like when within the first few months of you being in AEW, there was this kind of idea online of like, wait, that guy was in NXT? That guy? I don't remember seeing that guy doing these things. Like, you leveled it up a ton. Which worked in my favor because they didn't have anything to compare. compare me to. Like, like,

there's a lot of people are like, who's that, who's this? Like, on the day that I did the contract signing at World,

at Revolution, I was just like, I can take this as like a disrespectful way and be like, bitter about it and feel petty. Or I can be like, I could use this as my favor and be like, okay, they don't know me.

This is a fresh start. I can literally, like, once again, that rock bottom feel. There's nowhere else to go, but up. Yeah.

I'm not having to like, compare myself or work towards like what I did in the past. Like I felt like that was so tough for like a Brian Danielson because he was coming from being Daniel Bryan. Right. Like he's a Hall of Famer. That just that in itself is a Hall of Famer. So Brian coming into like I'm Brian Danielson.

And for people that only know him as being Daniel Bryan to doing what he did and Brian as Brian Danison and AW, that's a whole other All of Fame career in just like two, three years. Yeah. Like of him doing what he's did here. in AW. So I feel like he had like a, he had a huge like, like, that's a lot of shoes to fill. Like for yourself, you know, Moxley the same way.

Yeah. You know, Moxley reinvented himself three, four times here in AW. Yeah. You know, like those guys had it harder than I did. I feel like because they had this huge reputation. They had the big names. They came in, they're coming in like a already successful, super, super successful careers in to be like, oh, I hope he's better than what we've seen there or like, oh, he's not as good as

what we saw over there. Or like, you know, they already had the comparison. Yet you're able to come into AEW, 10 plus years experience. And maybe people really weren't that familiar with you. Yeah. I was like, I'll teach you everything about me right here. And I like that. I like that kind of stuff.

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Buy or sell your next car today with Car Gurus at Car Gurus.com. Go to CarGurus.com to make sure your big deal is the best deal. That's C-A-R-G-U-R-U-S.com. Car-Gurus.com. When do you think the fans started to believe in you the way that you believed in you? I would say, I would really say the whole trajectory and the turn-up was, I think it started with me and Orange Cassidy, actually, and the double-or-nothing battle royal where I came down to just me and him. Because of like, I could have been, like, sour about not beginning a singles match on the pay-per-view and whatever, like, my, place mail. I'm like, I'm in a battle royal. But I was like, it was like

what I was talking about before is like, just give me an opportunity to show what I can really do and not just like just show what I can do. People really have a misconception of like taking the best with the time you're given. I was like, what you can do. So do everything that you can in that time. No, it's about

make that time valuable. Make that time worth it. make you feel something within that time, like educate the crowd and have them learn something new about you that they didn't know before in the four minutes. It can be done. I've done it plenty of times. I was in NXT and I lost to Leon Ruff in four minutes.

Do you remember it? Exactly. Because people just remember me kicking Leon Ruff in the back of the head when he was upside down. They remember the moments of those things. But it all started from like just me losing to him in three, four minutes. And I'm a former like Evolve MLW, CW, CW, whatever champion, all of that going into NXT. But it was just like, what can I make you feel in those four minutes?

Even making you feel disgusted that I lost to a Leon Ruff in NXC in four minutes. I can still make you feel that. Yeah. And I'll make you feel sorry for Leon Ruff for beating me in four minutes. So those are the questions I start asking myself, just like with the Battle of Roy, I was like, what can I make you feel about me and Orange Cassie, the last two in this battle royal? What can I make you feel in those moments? I can make you feel sorry.

I can make you feel like, oh, no, Orange, there's no way he's beating him. I can make you feel like, what? He beat him? I can make you feel like, oh, he's going to get him back after he beats him. Like, I can make you feel all these different things in those four minutes. And that's all I asked for. And then me and Orange, I'm like, let's give him a show. And sure enough, it was like a really dramatic up and down suspenseful finish that led to me getting a 17 minute match with Orange Cassidy on TV for the international title, which people still thought I was going to beat him then.

So that's where I got people believing because people just like, were like, oh, no, this is it. Oh, like they weren't like, yeah, this is going to be a good match, but like, oh, he might actually hurt Orange. Oh, there's no way, aren't just to be winning this. Oh, man, like, now you got him thinking a little bit further than just the match quality. Yeah. What did Wembley mean to you the first time around? Not only are you there in front of all of those people. Yeah.

But you get to work with Sting. That was it. Like, Wembley was great, but it was like Sting. It's Sting and one of my good friends, Darby. It was like, in a legend I grew up watching with Christian as my tag partner. Yeah. It's just like, man. I couldn't, I, I, I couldn't never write that scenario in my career.

Once again, it's like, it's exceeding what I thought I could do. Well, there was a point in time where it's like, we didn't think Sting would wrestle again. No. And then he had that one cinematic match. It's like, okay, cool. We saw him wrestle again. That's fine. That was cool.

And then somehow that turned into a run. But that's again, like, we go back to what I was saying in the beginning. Yeah. It's just like, he had to build his confidence. It was just like, hmm, what more can I do? Yeah. Didn't Darby convince him that? Yeah.

Yeah. He didn't know himself, and it took help. It took him getting help to be like, yes, you can. And he was like, and he had to believe it. Then after he did the one, it was like, you know what? What more can I do? So he goes through another door. Oh, I could do more.

Then he goes through another door. Then you get to Wembley. It just all starts with like just opening up that confidence and getting out of the comfort zone. What was it like putting a match together with Sting? Man, like, it's awesome because he understands like moments of, like how we make this feel the biggest moment we can make possible. I don't make that feel bigger.

How do you make that feel bigger? The spots are going to be there because we're us. We can do it. We can, we're all, and everybody has a good attitude about it, making things feel great. So like,

like you, you just rehash this history. You know, Christian and Sting have history from like back in TNA and stuff. She can bring that back. And Darby have history and stuff. You know, But then you also get to create new history and new magic with me and Christian never tag before.

Like how do we work as like people on the same scene? You know? It was like a lot of just like great minds. Just wanting to make great moments. So what's an example of making a big moment feel even bigger? It was just like a feeling of just like that coffin. That coffin is like who's going in it? Who's going in it?

Who's going in it? Is this the last, is this how we end Sting's career? We put them in a coffin, you know, or like, Arby's crazy enough to go into a coffin. What's he going to do on it? Then it's like, oh, like, then you're like, then you're just so like, okay, different ways can we play with like teasing the coffin? And I think one of the biggest moments is like, which if you look at the AEW book that just came out, it's like Sting having the baseball bat and me closing it.

What a moment, right? It's like, a moment, big moment. It's like, what? Because Sting goes in fully in. You're like, oh, that's it. This is it. He lost. Yep.

And then you slam it shut, but the bat's just sticking out. Because we always get the tease of like, no, no, no, no, no. So I was like, the speed of like, especially if you're watching from way up there, you're like, oh, it's over. Boom, oh. Yeah. Yeah, it's done. Wait, what?

Yeah. Oh. Especially if you're sitting on the other side of the arena. Yeah. The coffin looks closed. Yeah. And the camera shot of like it closing, then cut to like the bat right there. And then like me having, then me going in and like his clothes is over.

Nope, my fingers are out. That looked painful. Oh, God, yeah. But it's like so much suspense, and that's how you make moments. The moments is like, all right, what's this fans waiting for? And you just play with it. You're hanging halfway out of the coffin. Yeah.

Darby goes up and gives you the coffin drop onto the coffin. Yeah. Man, that looks at her. Which was a second coffin drop on the coffin because he went from the top to the floor on the coffin, too. Right. It was already dented. Freak in nature. That looked like it hurt.

hurts so much. I'll ask you people like, it was chill. It was chill. It was chill. I was like, what does that mean? I don't know what that even means. There's a spot where you're on the outside. You're laying on a table.

Yeah. And sting goes to put you through the table. And the table won't break. With big sting. He's a big dude. Yeah. Which shocked me. And I was like big at the time too.

So I was like, that's another one of the moments. Like you can make a like, oh man, it was supposed to break. But it was like, it's sting. We just want to see Sting do wild stuff. So like, do it again. Hell yeah.

Not that way, but okay. Well, I guess it worked. But it's sting. We just want to see Sting like do wild shit, you know, and that's like the best part about like,

like, I can't stand when like everybody wants everything to go so perfect. I'm like, no, we find magic in the imperfect. That's the beauty of it. That's the organicness of it. You know,

that's what makes it feel like, like a freaking party. Yeah. You want wrestling to feel like a party and like not so clean and stuff. No, like parties aren't clean. Yeah. You never go to a party and everything's clean. They're at the wrong party then.

Like that's what makes AWs special because it feels like a party every week. Blood and Gus just happened. It felt like a party. Yeah. Anarchy and arenas feel like parties, you know? They feel like you're at a concert and they're like, what concert can people come to you and like play their instruments in front of your face? That doesn't happen at concerts and at parties and stuff.

But it can happen at AEW like place. That's what we capture something that no other wrestling organization can really do. You know, we have those moments and that feeling of like, dog, I got blown away by this show. You want to come back from a show exhausted. But man, isn't that tough? Because now you have to top it, right? Yeah, yeah. This show was so amazing.

That spot was so incredible. What are you going to do now? Well, we were saying that five blood and gut, blood and guts ago. and we still found a way to do it. I don't know what more there's left to do, but there's always like... But you guys say that every year. Every year. Every year.

I remember the young bucks two, um, I think it was like two Anarchy in arenas ago. They were like, I never want to do this match again. I never want to do this matching in. He's like, we,

it's like, no, I'm just never going to do this match again. And somehow they got roped into it because of the bucks and they can do it. And that's also like the, double-edged sword like well you you can do it so it was like okay and then they had the most fun in their lives doing this one like this last one in venix was a blast let the bodies hit the floor

playing all throughout the whole match and all that stuff all the elements of the characters and people all main event players too like samoa joe moxley kenny myself you know like willow like like all these elements of guys are like everybody's equally getting their ass booked and there's no egos nobody's like like kind of phasing off and like being left out the girls got involved like marina schfere and willow like cooked that match and now they cooked in blood and guts too so it's like it's a party everybody can get involved you know like freaking willows and me are giving the like the melzer driver to freaking you know so where else are you going to see that? Yeah. Do you ever feel like you push it too far?

Not to a point that's like overly like dangerous as far as I go. Like you've never felt uncomfortable. No, no, no. Like I'm like, like I said, I'm in the ring with the best in the world. There's no reason to ever feel uncomfortable with these guys and girls. So we talked about Wembley, 2023 all in. Yeah. The next year, Brian Danielson.

Yeah. He said that's his favorite match ever. Which is like all. always like blows my mind to even being considered even in a top five or ten or fifteen of ryanneausen matches like after what he did with will yeah after what he did with kennie yeah and like rest in peace after what he did it with bray like after what he did with so many greats like like orton and triple h and like batista then over here with like like just like this is this blows my mind it was like me little me is but it was just like i just like once again

telling like moments and making stories and playing the role that i need to play to get the most out of it and um i always like to go into any match like what elements do i have to play with that can make this match not better but just different from those other great matches that i mean yeah and i had brie bella sitting right there with the kids yeah which that was the key element to the match was the fact that he wanted to wrestle in front of his kids and he never got to do it. So I was like, I get the honor of being the guy to face off and take advantage of that. So that was like where like I was, but that's where the story elements of like, swerve the character always uses family against the opponent. I'll always pick at the heart

of the opponent. That's what took Hayman down, playing with his child, you know, the elements of, like, teasing him with that, you know,

it's, I beat Darby because of Nick Wayne. You know, I've, like, played with, uh, that I played mind games with the acclaimed with Billy Gunn.

You know, I always tug at the heartstrings, which is something that Sean Michaels told me. Um, and so I tug on the heartstrings of Brian Damesl's family, being there. but Brian it turned it

it used it as his strength as his power and it turned against me so that's what actually what fired him up and got him to turn it back against me there's only I'm the only one that's been able to actually tell

and carry that story all the way through that whole year how much were you allowed to play with his family sitting there I didn't need much like which I

yeah I was just like I just need a little bit of interaction but that's about it. That's all I need. And that's what made that moment at the end after he wins and he's able to celebrate with his family. This is what made it so sweet.

Yeah. Which is something that he was denied when he won at WrestleMania 30. He never got the chance to like celebrate with his like wife. That crazy that they didn't want to like admit that they were a real couple. Yeah.

Camera. They have the weird reasonings and like rules for those kind of things. It's changed a lot. But to think back for sure. It was 2014 when he had wrestling. You never get that chance back. Of course.

Until AEW comes around and offers a chance to do that. Yeah. And I rolled out of the ring. I'm like, no, this is you. I didn't want to like, oh. Like, I hate that. Like, oh, great job. I'll get you next.

No. Like, I was the beat out of the back. I was an asshole. I need to get out of the way. I lost. Yeah. You know? So, um, it's just like, this is for Brian.

Brian has worked so much and inspired a whole generation of guys. he deserves that kind of moment. And I know there's people out there like, Swerve deserves a longer title reign. I'm like, sure, but I need to be different and better. And I'll have my time. Brian's probably never going to have this time again.

Let's give Brian this time. And I'm so thankful to be one of the guys to be able to do that for him. Why do you think you have such magic with Hangman in the ring? Oh, because we both are one sick. individuals. I feel like we were,

the thing is like the, the chemical romance between us is that we need each other. I think that's why it works. Is it kind of like how Batman needs Joker? Like, there's no crime in Gotham if Batman's not around. That scarecrow might do a few things.

But like, they wouldn't have to like do it the way that they do it. Right. They literally have to go overboard to get what they want because Batman exists. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like that's the,

and that's always the thing is like, is Batman preventing crime or is he creating more crime? That's always, that's always been the, um, yeah, the theory there in the comic, which is why he's such a compelling character,

because he always creates more villains. Um, so like, do you approach the feud with hangman as like, hero versus villain? I approach it as two men. What do they want? Okay.

What do you want? What do they want? Yeah. Yeah. That's like, what does hangman want and what does swerve want? So there's the thing about storytelling in 2025 and 2020s. I will just say this generation.

Like that, I feel like a lot of the veterans who've been like doing this since the 80s and 90s and stuff like that, it's hard for them to really grasp the type of storytelling we're doing in this age because it's something that wasn't really happening, like the way that we're doing. we pull it off, you know, the way that we do it. Our audience gets it. They read this and read this and they go through this and then they make videos about it. They're so inspired because then they do this. They like, I don't think they really had that in their generation that era.

So it's like tough for them to like really like they see it, but they're not like, oh yeah, but we don't get it. You know, it's just a generational thing. It's something against them. They just, I just don't think they understand it. The way our generation takes in information and watches movies and storytelling and TV shows, it's like a new wave of like storytelling. So we take that style and all those different things of like the, like how we pushed and pushed it forward and pushed it and progressed it so much that is happening in a wrestling form. It's kind of like different. So it's not as much like, the baby face has to do this.

The good guy has to do this. The guy has to girl. She's like, it has to be a damsel in distress and there has to be this. And then, like, it's all about the belt. It's all about the belt. It's all about them getting this. And, like, the good guy eventually wins. And, like, no, sometimes the good guys don't win.

That's life. But the story still continues on. No, sometimes I don't want to beat you to prove that I'm better. Sometimes I'm just want to beat you because I don't like you. And that's like, that's, like, hard for the past generation to really conceive that. Like, why are these guys fighting? Well, because this, this is a, nah, that. Yeah, but who do they get?

they get validity. They get the character gets rewarded. Sometimes it's not about where do I go on the show. Like, do I progress to the championship? Because like some people think like, you're not successful without a championship. You're not a main event or without a championship. You're not this without these titles.

You're not this. Like, no. People, the connection is what grows you to the title. You know, if they understand what I'm fighting for, what my motives are, and what I'm willing to do to get what I want from those motives, that's where people connect with you. People don't just connect with like, this is the baby face, push him, put him on a poster, put him on this,

put him on this, keep playing them over and over and over again. Just because you're showing me him doesn't mean I'm connecting with him. Sometimes they just like to see him wrestle, but they don't want to see him win. They don't care if they see him win. We have to find a, me and Hangman have found a different way to loop it in like, no, he has to beat him. No, he has to win.

Or it's like, he has to just get his revenge. Oh, he has to get his get back. Oh, man, I can't wait till they do. They just want to see us do. They want to see us interact. You know, so we've got, we tapped into something of storytelling that's very polarizing. And some people, even still when we were doing it, actively doing it, people couldn't really grasp it yet. They grasped it as we, we've gone forward.

Now they can look back after all the chaos we've caused. I was now like, I get it now because some people want the results first and the work second. But it doesn't work like that. You have to go through the work to get the results. Hangman burned down your childhood home. Yeah, that's motive. And not only did he burn it down, but then he just sat there as it burned. But because like, well, I took him to, the whole point was like,

I wanted to drag him down to show him that you're just as bad as I am. and I proved it. Yeah. It's like Joker with Batman saying like, you're no better than me. They just glorify you for what you do. Yeah. Like, you're deep down,

you're just as willing. You're just as dirty as I am. You either die the hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. And that's what happened to hang man. He's like, dang, I did do all these things. So much that he heard his friend, Christopher Daniels, you know, the fallen angel, he hurt his friend. Yeah.

Because of, I took him to such a, The place he came and, like, he's still remorseful with his friends. Yeah, he retired Christopher Daniel. Yeah. Was it worth it? Because do you feel any better? What did that do for you? Nothing.

You still feel empty because you still, I never apologize. And so we have, like, just this magic of, like, we know we need each other. Even he doesn't win all in without me. That's true. You pass him the chain. that he left to me when we had the conversation right before all in and you know in collision yeah like I don't extend to the world title without him but I also don't lose that all in without him so we kind of need each other we hate each

other but we need each other we also made each other better like like people were talking about hangman being done like as a main eventer as a world champion in 2023, they were like, we got to look past, we got to look past Hangman. It's Will Osprey's time now. Like, because he just wasn't there mentally. He just wasn't there.

I broke him. But also, I did it intentionally because I know Hang Man is that guy. I respect, the character of Swarf respects Hangman. That's why I went after him. I wouldn't go after anybody that I wouldn't get anything from because I had motive. I want to get to the world championship.

I want to make history be the first black world champion in AEW. He's how I can get through to it. So I'm not talking him down. I'm actually talking him up because I know if I move him out of the way, I can get there.

What do you think that you did that really broke hangman? Oh, his child, because he's a family man. Because the week prior to that, I had a number one contendorship match with Brian Danielson, which is the two times

I've lost to Brian Danielson because of a hangman. So, like, I had the crown about to him again. He takes the crown from me and Brian Anderson beats me. So he took me away from a title opportunity. So I'm going to take something from him.

All's fair and love and war and this whole thing. So that's what caused me to go into his house and invade his house because people remember the moments. But if they go back and watch closely, there's a reason why we got to that moment. Where did you even come up with the idea of, I'm going to invade his home?

I'm going to go to the place that is most sacred to him. That's the thing. It was like, what's sacred to you, family? It's oddly simple. And I think that's what a lot of, like, I try to teach to a lot of wrestlers. I'm like, what is your character want? I want to be the best.

So does he. So does he. so to see, so does she. They all want to be the best. What do you want? Why do you want that? If you can't figure out what you want, why are you here?

Are you here for political reasons? Are you here for like money reasons, like MJF? Because he can buy his way into a promotion. Are you here because of generational talents? Like father, mother passed it down to you and so and so. So you have a legacy to uphold? are you here for

geographical reasons? You move from one country to another, so now it's like so and so you represent, like, go back to the 70s and 80s, Iran, and like, you know, you're doing it for your people and all these other things and stuff to free your people.

That's why you're here. Like, what are you here for? What do you want? Once you can figure these reasons out, that's when that's soon you start figuring out the motive. Like both Professor X and Magneto went equality among the mutants.

But one just wants them live amongst the humans. One wants to wipe out all the humans for mutants to just have equality. I love all these pop culture references. It's right there. So they both want the same thing. But both are going to two differently opposite things to get what they want. This episode is brought to you by Timeline. Have you tried all the health trends, but you're still feeling tired, foggy, or off your game?

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Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer podcast, presented by Henko. Follow and listen on your favorite platform. What's your why as we head into 2026? That's going to be the tricky part. That's going to be the interesting thing about the next evolution of Swarve, which is something that I'm,

out of everything that I've done, I'm fully 100% like proud of the fact that I always have a switch to turn. Always have a motive. Always have a evolution. I always have like people feeling something different about me without me doing anything. And that took, that's what I felt like I learned from Lucha Underground. Just like playing with the camera.

I'm playing with story. And figuring out like, I only have this to work with. What can I make, like, all these people watching the show feel something? It's just, like, if not just feel, but relate to something with this little that I'm given. And that's what Killshot was. I was given a lot. But once I did a lot with very little, there was very little I couldn't do when I got a lot.

Do you want that AEW championship back? Of course. And look who has it right now? What do you know? And why does he have it? That makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So there's a lot of like different ways that, which I'm super like proud of the main event talent scene that we have in AW because now there's a bunch of different ways we can go. Yeah. It's like I will say the end of 2025 going into 2026 is going to be the most like interesting of the last. couple years because our main event scene is just so dynamic and then they're all powerhouse and they're all hungry too motivated guys you know we have a lot of mixing up to do do you have just an

insane threshold for pain no i actually suck at pain i don't i don't know about that i'm terrible at pain i'm awful so what is it you're just adrenaline's through the roof um i i sometimes i just like like astral project and just like my body just leaves itself for like a couple seconds. Then it comes back and they're like, oh, why did I do that type of feel? So I got to kind of like go thoughtless for a little bit. And then it comes back to me. What made you think you could do that syringe spot? It was just something that I don't think has been seen on American soil.

Television wise and a major promotion like that in a while because it's something that's like, why would you do that? Why would anybody do that? Good, that's why I'm doing it. Well, you know, people already have a fear of needles. Yeah. So, like, just seeing the needle in itself is like, ooh, that makes me feel uncomfortable.

That's the point. Like, if you're sitting at home, you're already getting uneasy. Yeah. Which we have so many things of, like, like little small things that makes people uneasy. I knew a syringe would, like, make people feel uneasy. It went through your cheek.

Yeah, all the way through. come on yep all the way through I think I still have the needle I think I do how much did that hurt I felt it like and it's hard to gauge that with like like I could be like eh

and I can give it to you you're like oh my god so like our pain threshold to anybody could be like just completely different so it could be like yeah it wasn't that bad like Darby Allen it was chill like that would kill me Darby what did you think about the reaction to that online Because there were some people that were like, oh, wow, that's crazy.

And then there were other people that are like, that's too much. That's stupid. That's dumb. That's like, why would you do that? Well, you're talking about it. It's the moment. It's the moment. And I wouldn't do that with anybody else.

Right there, unsanctioned, cage with hangman. Like somebody that, like, I was just already depleted because I got powerbombed on a cinder block right before that. So I'm like, it's just punishment. Like, we've already. took it so far. He already burned out my house. There's like, where else further do you go? Someone that you hate. And it was just like something that was just like,

he hates me that much. To just like do something like, like that's, that came out of his boot. Like he had that. So that was something like he just wanted to just punish me with. Where did you even get the, like, where did you come up with the idea? And then how did you know that that was the spot to like, this is the match.

We got to do this. I'd had no ideas. I just do. Hangman just does. Hangman just drinks in my blood. Okay. I'm taped in my hands. I can't move.

I can't stop him if I wanted to. He just does. Hangman just does. After the syringe, you took an unprotected chair shot to your head that was like attitude era level chair shot, like ECW type of chair shot. That thing was so loud. It felt like I got

punched in the head from two fists It was like Like from two different sides of like The skull It's honestly it was like It was very John Wayne, Clint Eastwood End of a movie,

Pau, you're dead It's just as simple as that Like there's nobody coming to help you We're off in the middle of nowhere you've gone so far as doing bad things from doing bad things to earn the success it's going to catch up to you and that's what happened to my character

I've done all these bad things invaded people's homes, kidnapped people, jumped like beating a 18 year old kid up to a bloody pulp in this ring where his dad passed away like I've done horrible things

of like, like, just despicable things, all for my own glory and all my own success. I did it for selfish reasons. You know, I made history, but it was ultimately for the wrong things. It's like the character of the end of a movie, a drug movie. It's like, man, you're doing horrible things to make it to the empire. We're rooting for you because deep down, like, we understand why you're doing it. but ultimately you're ruining the community, you're hurting people,

innocent people that some, there's other like, like people that are getting hurt from the things that you're doing that you don't even know about. So there's like all this residual effects from what you're doing as well. Like, dude,

it's just so much bad karma. It's got to come back to you. And that's basically what it was. It's like, wow. What's interesting about that is your character's done diabolical things, awful things. And yet people will still cheer you.

People still, people cheer John Dillinger. And he was robbing banks. Yeah. You know, like openly people like cheered him, you know, took pictures with a musical hero. And that's our society. That's what we, like, we make like documentaries of Ed Gain. Yeah. That go number one.

Yeah. Because that's our society. The number one show on Netflix for a while was the Jeffrey Dahmer. It's like we take like, I don't know, we just glorize these people that do bad things. And then we under, then what we do, we peel back the layers and show, oh, they're just like us. You know, he just had mommy issues. Oh, you know, they peel back the more layers and be like, oh, he's relatable. I understand him.

Actually, like, wait, why are we doing this? and we have to sit back and be like, wait, what are we doing here? Like, you know, so that's our society. We just like, um, like, even people that, like, like, we know our bad people. We see them on social media all the time, but we can't start watching them. And if you watch him for so long, you listen to him for so long

and listen to these words for so long, like, you kind of start, honestly, you know what? I kind of see where he's coming from. You kind of start to like, And that's where they become the heroes And you cheer for them Where do you think things changed for you Where it went from just being a cool entrance song

A fun dance that Nana was doing To doing what you're doing now I don't think there's much of a difference anymore I think it's just like But it's so much more than that though Is what I'm saying Yeah, yeah It's time

I just think everything's about time You just like I don't know It's like It's something about just like Like you get enough time. Like it's almost like I compare it to somebody coming like coming to your house for the first time compared to somebody coming to your house for the last five years. It's like first time you're like, eh, don't go on my fridge.

Yeah, like keep like, you know, like what are you doing going upstairs? Like hold up what, what's going on? Like, you know, now after five years of me coming over to your house, you're like, oh yeah, grab a drink. It's in the fridge. Yeah, yeah. Like, hey, hey, see my wife. Yeah, yeah, oh, she's upstairs. Go upstairs and grab her, have her to come down and stuff.

you just get comfort over time. And I feel like that's what I, like every, every day, every Wednesday or Saturday, collision or dynamite or pay-per-view, people are welcoming, welcoming you into their home. So it is the same thing. It's like, oh, I'm comfortable now with this character. You know, I'm becoming like more, like understanding them more, you know. Like, so they grow a bond with you over time. And if you don't have the time with people, it's just not going to be like that they're,

not going to put you on your wall, their wall, you know, they're not going to, like, let their kid, like, buy your figure or something because you don't know them. Like, they, you have to connect with them. Like, you're not going to, like, all these things are like, you're literally welcoming this character into your home. So with time that they feel like they know you in a sense. And then even doing podcasts and stuff like that, they'd be like, you know, I want to know the person outside of who I'm watching on the television show.

I want to know the person behind that. On the flip side of that, AEW has become your home. Oh, yeah. And you just signed a new deal. Oh, yeah. What went into wanting to remain at AEW for a much longer length of time? Oh, yeah. Just like everything, like I was just like, it was like me and Tony Conner were bonding as well.

You know, I didn't get that, I didn't get that trust yet, you know, from them. And once I, like, finally it was like, not only just to trust to like just do that one on TV. I think people think it's like, oh, just do what you want on TV. It's like, no, it's not like that. It's trust to be like, I need something done on TV that will work. You're the guy to do it. That's a different trust. You know, like, I, like, because I'm like, one thing I've like, which I got back to,

I got this information from like Paul White, big show. I was like, we're sitting at catering one day. It was also one of the times I was just coming off tagging with Keith Lee. So I was like in that little singles void. which happens so everybody. It doesn't happen to say AW. It happens everywhere in wrestling. When a tag team has been tagging,

then you split off and they're like, all right, what do these two guys do? Who's going to where? So he was just like, you know one thing that I've always respected about John Cena and you talk to the man? I was like, he always brought Vince what he wanted. He always made sure Vince got what he wanted.

He's the only guy I've ever seen. I sat in Gorilla and watched him where before he would go out there, he would say, Vince, what do you want? What are you looking for? And he would go out there and gave him exactly what he was looking for, exactly what he wanted. And he came back and this was like,

that's what I was looking for. So Vince was like, that's my guy to get exactly what I'm looking for. Whether you agree with it or not, whether you like it or not, he's going to come back and give this guy what he wants. And that's why Sina is where Sina is. Yeah.

And I was like, you know what? Let me flip my mindset for like always thinking I know what the best thing is. Let me just find out what does he want. Tony, what are you looking for out of this? And if it's just a good match, cool. Simple. You got it. Hey, Tony, what do you need out of this promo?

I need this thing. You got it. No bickering back and forth. No, I don't think it should go this way. And I was like, I was just like, no, what do you need? how do you how do you want how do you see it happening how much time do you want you got it and that's where i started building the trust with tony and that's where things start opening up more and more and more and i think that people think that that's i would think of wrestling

promor would believe they're being clear like all right it's you versus this person they they know what you have in mind or it's it's it's tough because we're artists at the end of the day but to ask someone like what is your intention for this that completely changes it It does. Yeah. It's like, and it also shows Tony, I'm in it for the product. I'm not in it for me. I'm in it for what does AW need?

Hey, Tony, where do you need me for the next couple months? You need me in this space? Okay, cool. I have some ideas if you like yada, yada, yada, yada. And you're like, okay, what do you think? Because I don't have anything really here. Well, here's what we can do if it gets to this, ultimately, which is what you want. Is Tony pretty collaborative to work with?

Always. always. And I think Tony's gotten really, he's grown so much more as like an individual, a business owner, a promoter, a booker,

in a sense, of knowing his talent and knowing what he can do with certain talents and putting them in the right spaces to succeed. I think he's gotten so much better at that. And now we're seeing a lot of, that's why the talent pool is so tough right now.

And it's hard for people to just come in in the company like it was year one. I wasn't here year one, so it was hard for me to, I can't really talk about it like that. But just from my time of being here day one, it's like it's a little harder because he knows he has the certain talent that gives him what he wants and what he's looking for. Who have you not worked with yet that you can't wait to have a one-on-one match? Kyle O'Reilly, man. I've been asking for Kyle O'Reilly for so long. We interacted in the battle oil, the two-ring battle royals. and stuff. But that was it.

And that was when Bobby Fish was still here. You know? And Buddy Matthews. Man, like, rest up, hope he comes back soon, man, because he's a beast. Have you worked with Count Fletcher yet? Yes. He's my first title defense, actually. That's right. Oh, that's right. Yeah. But, like, he's grown so much more since then.

He's so talented. He's grown, like, immensely since then. So, like, another match with him would be incredible. Especially like this iteration of culture. Yeah, but like that's growth. He's had growth. He has motive. He knows what he wants.

He knows who he is. You know, and that's the beautiful thing. Like, that's what I look, I look forward to seeing where these guys go, you know. I'm like, he's good now. But man, what he's going to do in X amount of years, X amount of matches. Like Kevin Knight's another one of those guys. It's like, man, like, what he's like, he's great now. What he's going to do in these next couple years is going to be incredible.

you know um yeah there's like so many people like i can't i can't wait to see what tecla does i can't wait to see what megan bain does you know like there's so many people that i'm just like looking forward to like their growth to like what their full potential is going to be you know people still think that staple gun to your tongue was fake i don't know how there's like there's really not one staple has ever been fake. Not one. Like the photo of me and Hangman, like those staples stayed in me the entire match from the beginning all the way to the end. Like you can see you backstage after with the staple pierced in your tongue. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Not one staple has ever been false. Not one thumbtack has ever been like trimmed off. All of that stuff is like legit. Man. The way that you use a staple gun.

Yeah. I've never seen anyone do that before. I was just fresh off of watching John Wick stuff. That's perfect. So I was like, how do I tie up multiple people with the, because it's figuratively a gun. It is literally in the name. Yeah. Not figuratively, it is literally.

But I can't, like, it won't get the effect of like, hey, you from over here, pow. Because then it'll go, phew. Yeah. And people won't believe it really went that far. And why would that hurt? So, like, how do I get close combat with them? So I kind of like figured out, like, start watching some stuff.

and then like start in implementing moves that I actually do into those things and then like who can I do it with then it's like okay what do you do you do that I can counter off of that like Claudio pop me up and you usually know like European uppercuts coming but I said nope yeah you know so um it's just it's just awesome it's I have awesome time awesome time like and then like probably the one that gets shared to the most is like there's two there's like the Okada rain making finger clap with one. And then there's the Matt Jackson clipped in the nuts deal from anarchy. And then of course there's Marina getting my tongue. But it

also shows the vast amounts of emotion. I can make you laugh with it. I can make you cringe with it. I can make you like it's all these different things I can do with just one instrument. That's an everyday tool. It's in everybody's house. hopefully it isn't but but like it's just everyday item

it's like why would this staple gun be by the ring that's exactly what would be by the ring isn't the beauty of wrestling all these things that you can make people feel right you can make people laugh you can make people scared you can people cry and that's and that I feel like that's why my character resonates so much

I have all these different emotions in things I make you feel I'm not one brooding character even though most dangerous man in AW I can have fun. You can have fun with swerve the character. You know, you can have girls dancing doing an entrance in the background.

Then I can also bleed to death and, like, do all the crazy stuff. And I could also take a tractor trailer to your limo and, like, oh, my God, that's so funny. But I can also make you feel like, oh, just telling the story about, like, my home and getting, like, buying it back with the contract money and all that stuff.

So, like, there's peaks and valleys with the swerve character. That's why I'm always ever evolving. and that's why I was like always there's nowhere you can't use me on television because I can do all of these different things and bring all these emotions out of you. The Texas death match with Hangman was like there were some moments in that where you're just like, oh, that one, that just makes you cringe. Yeah. Because that's real.

Like the barbed wire. Oh, yeah. I didn't know that was going to happen. I was like, oh, my God. I hope his face is still intact, kind of. But in a sense, I'm like, eh. You know, if he's hurt, he's hurt. But no.

But, yeah, it was the point of, like, it wasn't just the spots we were doing. It was just the hate behind all of it. You know, like the barbed wire, like snagged up on him. Yeah. He just snagged me too. Yes. Later on, you know, like, it's all about, like, yeah, to me, it was just all about, like, there's just so much hate and intention behind everything we're doing.

That was the first time, well, not the first time, but, like, I used the cinder block on him. you know, it was like pure hatred. And then the violence just keeps escalating and escalating and escalating. And the blood keeps dripping more and more and more. You know, and then the first half was just like him getting his revenge from me going into his house. There's a beauty in the fact that you can do all of these different types of matches, right? Like you can put on a wrestling clinic with Brian Danielson.

You can do the stuff you did with Will Osprey in the ring and somewhere like the high flying stuff. You can do a 450 off the top rope. And then you can have a match. with hangman where he takes you to a dark place and you do some really violent stuff. Yes. And you can do it all well. There's a beauty in that.

It was something I've like built over like 15 years of learning it all. And I wish like, I wish there was so many guys like coming up in the Indies now that weren't getting signed so like young because like the game is like moving. Well, the interesting thing is there's no, like, huge stars on the Indies. Yeah. Because they get signed up as soon as they start to see the talent. And that's no disrespect to anyone that's on the Indies right now. No. It's a different scene, though.

There's talent. Of course, tons of talent. But it's like, man, I want to see you guys reach your, like, the new height of potential before you get to TV. But also, there's like a leverage in that. Once you do reach that potential, you know what your power is. and you know what, like, your value is. Because there was a...

AJ Styles knew what is the value was. For sure. And there was a phase on the Indies, like mid-2000s to call it, like, mid-2010s, when they were like, think of all the talent that was out there, right? We wrote our own ticket. Sure. That's the, that's why it probably won't happen again because the Indies had power. Yeah.

The Indies had value. We had power. We didn't necessarily need the mainstream. because a lot of guys are making six figures close, close, getting close to seven figures on just independence.

That's wild. And you think about like Sammy Zane was doing a thing. Kevin Owens like having these incredible matches and like the list goes on and on. The PWGs, the Mount Rushmore guys were cold, then ricochet was going over the Japan

becoming a young legend over there. Young bucks at that point in time. Young bucks. Like, oh, they were signed, yeah. Like the Bullet Club, like it was something.

And it's like, it's going to be, I wouldn't say it's impossible because nothing in wrestling is impossible, but it's going to be really, really, really hard to capture that magic again because it's now everything's the race to get to TV, race to get to the contract, race to get to the TV. It's like, man, like get to TV when you're 30. Have, like, be well-rounded. Go to Germany, like starve a little bit. You'll be all right. But, you know, go to. Canada, build Canada again, build like the scenes in Mexico, build Australia back up, build Japan, like, build these places up again so y'all can write your own ticket so that, like, that next guy's coming up can just eat off of what y'all have built, you know,

like build that stuff again. The great thing in that, though, is so many of your friends are now able to work on TV and make wrestling their full-time job. because they can wrestle in AEW or TNA or WWE. That didn't exist for a while. No, no, yeah. It's very much off of our generation. Our generation, the generation beforehand with like Brian D'Angenons and all

them, like I give it up to those guys tremendously, like Tyler Black, Seth Rillans and all those guys, top guys, Kevin Owens, Davy Richards, like a lot of, like Kenta, a lot of those guys. just like Nigel, Samoa Joe, yeah, Kenta Kabashi. Like, there's a lot of unsung heroes in these pools of this, like, generations of talent that I can go through all these names before you even get to, like, mainstream TV.

Yeah. You can go through all these names of pools of talent that help build, like, all this stuff, you know? And all these promotions that help do it too. Yeah, I think of all the talent that was in Ring of Honor. Like a lot of those people you name. Not even just a Ring of Honor because they became like, I would say Ringleana became like a mainstream as well.

Yeah. In a sense, in a very niche way, it became mainstream too. But the like AAWs as well defy wrestling out there, like CZW for the longest period of time. Like Jersey All Pro and all that. VIP wrestling in Texas,

there was like some dope places. Like Evolve when it was on, before it became on 2B and stuff like that. You know, MLW, I go through just like, I remember, it felt like territories again. Yeah. You know, WXW Germany and then RevPro and then like,

like Southside and they'll go into the loops over there. That's why I became so close with like Tony Storm and, you know, Will Osprey and all those like Tyler Bates and Pete Duns. Like those tours made me like, made like lifelong friends of mine. that they created a scene too. Like Mark Andrews, shout out to him. Like so many people that just like deserve their roses more so. Walter, if it wasn't for that.

Like Gunther and all that. Yeah. Tommy End, Malick or Alster Black, you know. Like there's so many guys that really deserve in promotions equally that deserve the flowers for creating the AWs, the WWs, the current now, the TNAs, the, you know. Yeah. If I think about acting,

because I feel like so much of what you do has a lot of nuance. I think about it all the time. I just want to make sure I go into it and I'm like, well, good at it, you know? I don't know. Or at least probably trained for it. Okay.

I don't like winging anything. Are you taking acting classes? I'm not, I don't have the time yet, but I'm definitely going to like, I've taken like one-on-one classes for sure. Okay. But not like a consistent basis. I want to make sure I'm like

properly like you know also those things come around when the time is right there's nothing I want to like go out there hunting for it you know like it's going to come around in the right spaces and the right people and I'm like okay now I'm prepared now I can just dive in and be focused on it

it's come around for MJF and he's like a workhorse at what he's doing doing both yeah like leaving set to come be on TV to get blood bloodied up by Mark Briscoe. He left Happy Gilmore, too.

Oh, man. To, like, have a match where it's like, well, you couldn't get hurt. Yeah, go to Mexico, then do Mexico and, like, the pay-per-view. I'm like, dude, oh, my God. Like, shout out to him. He's another one that's, like, bridging the gap as well as for the next generation. Yeah. Of, like, the crossover star, you know, shout up to him.

He was another one. I was, like, I was wrestling him when he was 18. Wow. When he was 17, 18, I knew him since then. And he was another one. You look at him. this guy's got it. This guy's got it.

To see what he's doing. I'm not surprised, but I'm still always, like, proud of it. And I tell him that all the time. But, yeah, like, I can't wait for him to, like, break open that door more,

you know, and, like, I'm always in favor of the next guys. Always. Like, I want, like, somebody,

like, because we do this, comparison games. So-and-so's better than so-and-so. So-and-so's better. I'm like, he's supposed to be. He's supposed to be. That's how evolution works. You know, like, it's not an insult to say Javon Evans is better than Swerve. I'm like, yes, he is. At 21 years old, he is better than I was at 30. You actually believe that? Yes. Wow. I have more intangibles because I've learned those things on the Indies. He's in, like, he's in a system now at 21. Yeah, but to take your ego out of that and look at it objective? Yeah, he's supposed to be.

Wow. That's amazing. Like, he's supposed to be better. That's because who was he watching? He was watching myself. He's told me to my face. Like, he's watched me and Leo Rush and guys like that and he took it to the next level, which is what we did, you know, like, like, Rikashe watched the same guys. He watched Rit, R. Mysterio and took it to the next level because that's what, that's what evolution's supposed to be. Of course he's better than me.

like he's going to be scary at 30 he's going to be terrifying like he's going to be scary in the next three years he already like you know what I mean so like what the point is is like I have these all these other intangibles that just make me meet I can't wait to find the intangible that he finds that makes Javan Javon. Yeah I can't wait for him to find those things you know so but like is he better in ring uh yeah no shit he's taller too. I feel the same way about Leon Slater Oh, my God. I've yet to meet that kid, though. Never met him.

Seeing this stuff. I'm sure he'd love to meet you. Oh, I would love to meet him. Incredible talent. Incredible. Both of them guys. I'm like, grab the bull by the horns and take off. Yeah.

And don't let anybody saying like, yeah, I mean, take advice, but also understand who you are. You know, always understand who you are. Because there's a lot of guys that are, like, try to pull us back, pull the generation backwards. And I'm like, we shouldn't be trying to pull the generation backwards. We should be trying to push it forward. again and make the next generation better and earn more money than we did, just like they did for us. Don't talk shit about us because we're earning, like, our wage and yada, yada, yada,

and who's making money and who's, like, who's paying the pay, like, writing the paychecks for who. I'm like, who cares? Like, who else in wrestling was going to be billions of dollars and, you know, like, fund the wrestling company? There's only one person that's ever made billions of dollars in wrestling. there's only one. Vince McMahon.

That's it. So who else are you going to find the money to do that in the wrestling business? No, it had to come from outside sources to fund another AEW. Thank God it was a Tony Khan who actually loves and cares about it. You know, so I'm all about like, let's push these guys forward. Guys and girls, push them forward. Let's not pull them backwards to like, well, back in my day, we used to like, we're not there. you did that for us to be better.

And now we are. We are doing better. Thank you. I feel like that happens in sports too. Like you always get the old heads talking about the NBA or NFL. Like the sports progressing forward and it's going to whether you like it or not. Like either be a part of it or get left behind. But like, let's push this forward.

And if you are feeling that way about it, like it doesn't have to be on a microphone and doesn't have to be recorded and put out there to the world. It's just like, let's push these guys forward. Because if they just, if we all just stop, what do you have? Nothing. You know? So let's keep pushing it forward. So eventually it will circle back to getting back to where it originally was.

It always does. You feel like you're in your prime right now? Yeah, 100%. Because I don't know if everybody is able to recognize when they're in their prime. Yeah. I know like how I feel. And like the only way to like really test this is, just to, you know, get back in the ring and do it, form it.

And the challenge is doing it weekly. That's when, you know, like, if you can get that flow weekly every day. Because, like, having a moment and going away, and having a moment and going away, that's not really a prime. But, like, just doing it consistently every day, boom, and keeping the interest and keeping the, you know, the ball moving. That's the true test of that. Did you ever have a chance to work with Tyler Black?

No, never. Man, you know how good, like Seth Rawlins versus, is swerve Strickland, if we could open up a door and make that match happen? You know how good that would be? In his prime, I would love to,

like, because I know, like, because his body is like, I know he can't do a lot of the things he, like, used to. What's funny, if you look at the way he wrestled 10 years ago. Yeah.

It was a different style. Exactly. He's adapted, right? I'm not saying he's any better or worse, but it's a different style now. Yes, that's all it is. He adapted, but it was also like,

I think now he has to start thinking about the body now a little bit more compared to 10 years ago. He wasn't thinking about the knee. He wasn't worried about the shoulder. He wasn't worried about the neck. He wasn't worried about these things because he was just going, you know. So. Do you think about that ever?

No, no. Do you ever think about how much longer you could do this? I know where I'm at with it. I'm at peace with it, too. That's just for me. I know, like, because I never want to get in the space of, like, thinking about that. Like counting down. Yeah.

Or, like, wondering about that half second to. late too early because I'm worried about this. That's where it becomes dangerous, not just for me, but for somebody else. But you think in your head, like, I've only got five more years, 10 more years, whatever, the number is 20 more years? It's not about how much I have. It's about what I'm comfortable stopping at. Because, like, I could probably go to a 50.

I don't know. But I want to be comfortable at stopping at here and being like, I'm okay with this. Oh, Billy Guns doing it in his 60s. They don't make Billy Guns like that anymore. They don't make Billy Guns. They don't make many Billy Guns. One of one. No, truly one of one.

And hats off to him. Like, I just know, like, I'm really, I'm really comfortable and okay with the person and the athlete and the body of work that I've, like, been blessed to do at such a high level with extremely high level talent. Like, the crop of talent that I'm around is just, like, second to none. And that's where I've really felt like I'm blessed at, you know, to work for a boss that I can, like, just like celebrate wrestling and football with and like like he's who's no who's seen my kids and like you know my mom and my you know like my relatives and stuff and treating them with the same

respect as anybody you know what I mean like this is the perfect time to just be like you know what I'm good I'm comfortable with that yeah you know it's more than just like what I put out there in the ring it's like what I go home to after the end of the day at the end of the week, you know, and when I get to enjoy doing, like, just the time off of TV is, like, made me, like, I feel good. I feel good about my foundation. Was it a bit of a reset? Oh, no, no, it was just like a, I wouldn't say reset is the word. Because I wouldn't say I was starting over.

It was just, I'm branching off, I would say. Okay. like we're going to see a slightly different version of you. Don't you always? Don't you always? You know, like it might be more sympathetic. It might be more like, you know, melancholy. It might be more sadistic.

You don't, and that's the thing. You don't know which direction I'm going to go with who I am. Because there's a lot of who I am in what I portray on television. It's not just like switch on and switch off. There's a lot of like truth and genuine feeling. Yeah. Into that. It's like, how would I really feel, you know?

And I just channel that into something, whatever that is, what is the goal? I love the way you approach wrestling. I love that. I approach it like life. I just think there's been so much has changed in your career, but also, I think, personally, for you since the last time we sat down and had a conversation like this, the growth is massive, right? Like, you went from being like one of the top stars. to like absolutely the guy who can do it right like they can give you the championship and it makes

perfect sense and i want to say congratulations on thank you where you're at right now and i can't wait to see what's next thank you so much man appreciate that and great to see you yeah yes it's always a good it's always a good time like when i see chris it's like now i always wanted to be that one of those people like chris has a very impressionable thing about him like oh it's a smile every time i'm like oh chris You know, I always want that, like, oh, swerve, hey, swerve here. Hey, Chris. I randomly ran into you in the lobby of the hotel in Houston. Yep.

And I was just like, swerve, my guy. Like, dude, what are we doing? You got to do this. Come on. Yeah. It's like, it's easy. It's easy, you know. But yeah, it's like, I like to have that feeling.

Like, even when I was gone, like, some people were like, dude, you're missed in this locker room. I was like, really? Like, oh, yeah, dude, like you have no idea. Yeah. Like, we need you back. Yeah. It's like, you just never know what you mean to, like, your workplace or your people.

Yeah, because sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty nice thing to hear like, oh, dude, you haven't been around. We miss you. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that I intentionally make that happen.

Yeah. But it's definitely like, it's a good feeling to be like, oh, man, yeah, come on. You're welcome back anytime. Like, or how much sooner? How much sooner? You know, that kind of feeling. Well, thank you again for making this happen, man. Always.

And I'll ask you the question. I asked everybody at the end. I asked you this last time. Maybe your answers are different. But what are three things that you're grateful for right now? Oh, man. Grateful for experience. Grateful for the experience that I've had that taught me how to proceed for the future

and set up my future. I'm grateful. for the flaws too. Grateful for the flaws that's made me look in the mirror and be honest and open. And myth, I was like, no, you need to change this. You should be better because that's how we get better. We don't get better if we know we can't get better, you know. And I'm grateful for like, uh, just the,

the ability to just care like I think that's one of like the things that's like man I can't get this off of mind because I care so much like I do what I do because I care like I handle like being presentable on screen is like because I care

like oh why do you are you spending all these hours on this music because I care like why do you get up and like stay so long and do this for the kids and all that because I care you know like everything that's happening in my life that's like constantly moving is because I care.

And I'm grateful for the fact that I, like, still have that ability to just care so much, you know, about what I do and who I'm doing it for. Yeah. And the reasons why I'm doing it. I love that. Great to see you, man. You're seeing you, too.

Thanks again. Yes, sir. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. With rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you, Lava Pigs, on this notion today.

No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it, but get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast.

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