Insight with Chris Van Vliet - The NFL's First Female Coach - Jen Welter on Being Limitless and Blazing Your Own Trail

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

Dr. Jen Welter is the first female to coach in the National Football League (NFL) when she served as a linebackers coach for the Arizona Cardinals in 2015. She joins Insight with Chris Van Vliet from her home in Los Angeles, CA to talk about her journey from a kid who loved football, to playing the sport to becoming a coach. Her book titled, "Play Big: Lessons in Being Limitless from the First Woman to Coach in the NFL" describes how she has spent her entire life blazing her own trail and she hopes to encourage young women to follow in her footsteps. For more information on Jen Welter visit: http://jenwelter.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are go. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. Welcome back, my friends, to another audio adventure on Insight. Thank you so much for being with us wherever you are. And whatever you're doing right now, you're awesome, by the way. And so is my guest today. Jen Welter has the distinction of being the first ever female coach in the history of the NFL. And her story is incredible.

You're going to be so inspired by this. You can find her on Twitter at J. Welter 47 on Instagram. She's at Welter 47. And you can check her out on her website. It's gen welter.com. If you're looking for me on Instagram or Twitter, I'm just at Chris Van Fleet. I'm also on TikTok these days.

Chris Dot Van Fleet on there. Can you believe Chris Van Fleet was taken on there? So I'm Chris. com. And if you're not already, make sure to hit subscribe or follow on whatever podcast platform it is that you're listening on right now. This conversation is one about drive and determination

and never taking no for an answer. She is an absolute badass. Please welcome Jen Welter. Jen, thank you so much for joining us. It is always a pleasure, although didn't realize we were like newly neighbors. Yeah, we live like 20 minutes away from each other. What are we doing here? It's the virtual world, right? We're all so used to the box that we don't even ask about, like, in real life destinations anymore, right? Like, it's just calendar invite. It wasn't like calendar invite plus proximity chat.

Yeah. Right? But now we know. I think we just assume now like, oh, we'll just click on the Zoom link and it doesn't matter if you live on the other side of the world or 20 minutes away. Right. So it's like a good thing in that because we have access to different people and opportunities that we wouldn't if it was proximate.

But I think a lot of the times we do miss the fact that people might just be right around the corner. As great as technology is, it doesn't encompass everything. Like, we're kind of meeting right now, but are we really meeting right now? We're definitely not to the same extent. Right. And, you know, you don't know what they're, you don't know what's right outside of that little proximity, right? That's it.

It's weird. No context. Well, I'm so excited to dive into this. And I want to start with this. Who are you now? And who was Jen Welter when you were growing up? You know, I think I'm a lot the same as I was growing up, especially when I get attacked by like random things off my wall.

But like, so as a little kid, I was, you know, just fearless. And I was curious. and I felt like I could do pretty much anything. And I think we lose that sometimes as we get older. Oh, you're not supposed to do that. Or you know, you've got to choose or, you know, girls don't do that or whatever that is. And so I tell people, I'm like, I was this person, this exact person very naturally. I was, there's a picture of me at a very young age where like I had a different.

flated football. It was like Brady ball to the to the 10th degree. A Brady ball. I mean, you know, I used to get asked about his balls so much. It got awkward, but like, you know, you know, because it was at that timing when I was in the NFL, but I had to ensure people that I had no knowledge of his balls. It's actually not a place or a space where I could infuse them with any additional knowledge. I had no secret, but it was getting awkward to get asked that much because his wife, she get jealous if anybody's getting asked that often. But there's this tiny football in my hands and a helmet that, like, you know, was over my eyes. And I used to make my cousins pull the mattress out on the back porch and run at them and I would get up and I'd laugh and I would do it again.

And over and over. And then football was this sport that I loved and wanted to play. And it was the place in the world that somebody told me, girls don't do that. And I think it was the first place in the world that that really hit home. I was like, what do you mean? We can't do that. I'm as tough as he is, or I'm going to work as hard. And so then full circle, right? Like I even, I looked at this the other day. you know, one of the pictures that was the most popular of me when I, when I got the job with the Cardinals and I'm at this press conference, you know, they handed me this helmet, which I, I don't, I mean, it was giant. Like, I don't know whose head it fit on, but it was like this under my arm. And I was like, this is like, I can't even hold it, right? It was so big. And I was like, I don't know how to hold a helmet like this. And I put it on my head. And, you know, the helmet was almost the same, like in how big it was and how very small I was in this very big helmet, in this very big game, in this very big world. I don't know it any other different, you know, like any other different way.

And I think for us as adults, the more we can get back to that curious, passionate, fearless, not caring about what everybody else thinks, kid, better off we're going to be. I try and push myself now more than ever to embrace that because I think kids need to see that from us adults and they deserve to see that, you know, you can play football and still have, whether it's pink hair or green nails, that you can be a serious athlete and also enjoy being a girl. Like, it doesn't have to be this dichotomy that fits in somebody else's box because we didn't know that as kids. We were taught. that as adults. It's funny as kids, we're kind of told, like, you can do anything. And then we become

adults and they go, well, actually, take the safe job. Take the one with a good 401k. Like, there's something that shifts there for all of us. Right. It's like security versus ingenuity. Right. Like kids have wild imaginations, right? Like, I could pick up a stick and slay a dragon. And yet, when we get to be adults, it's like the dragon becomes, even more, you know, more powerful than the monster under your bed. Like, because we, we get taught about wins and losses. And we get taught about, you know, security and safety and the white picket fence and replication, um, becomes kind of the gold standard.

And I think that we miss in that. I get it. Like a 401k is great. I don't have it. I because the path that I've chosen never afforded that right like I I I lovingly tell people like I followed a passion not a paycheck and that's why I was successful right there were there were no paychecks for women in football it didn't exist the most I ever got paid as a woman in football was a dollar a game and yet because I would chase that and not just set it as an outcome destination

like I have to get here and then I won it, you know, which means until you're there, you haven't won, right? Like then you're losing every day that you're not there if you never made it or if you didn't get there fast enough. I just made the goal to, you know, get better every day, to stay in the game and to look at ways and spaces that I could get better so that I would be prepared to step up to every challenge the game put in my way. That was literally my goal for myself was to step up to challenges.

So I never thought that I'd be without challenge, I guess. And to me being this feisty little, you know, person who worked hard and went after things, it was like, okay, all right. Like, you know, this is what it's meant to be. And I think it's a blessing and a curse because you don't look for those things, but then by the, you know, by the other people's standard, you're often judged by them, right? Whether or not you have that.

Do you remember what your first introduction to football was growing up? Well, I didn't remember the back porch until my uncle reminded me. That's great. But I mean, we used to go to see high school football. That's the biggest thing in Vero Beach football. Like, I thought that the stadium in that high school was the biggest place in the world. and that the lights were the brightest. And I remember looking out on the field and saying that they look like real-life superheroes.

And I think that's why I was so enchanted by it. And that's why it also made sense. What do you mean? There are no female superheroes, right? Like, why can't there be? And so that was really the place that high school football became larger than life to me. Yeah. So in Viro Beach, Florida, for people that aren't aware, it's kind of like the first of

Friday Night Lights in Texas. Like this is like gospel. High school football is, is it there. Yeah. It is it. I mean, it is the thing. And your, you know, your big college programs are, you know, are hours and hours away. So that's not close. The closest probably Miami, you know, and then you have FSU and UF. And then the college teams or the pro teams are all a minimum of three hours away, which feels like another world. So it really is high school football at its finest. So how do you go from watching football to going, I want to be one of those people in the field? So I left Fero Beach High School and went to Sebastian River High School because I thought it would be cool to be in a first graduating class. What I didn't realize as a really competitive athlete is that senior sports teams are not good because a lot of the athletes want to stay where the programs are good.

Sure. So I was a really good soccer player, had a reputation as the sweeper who, I don't know, war number 13 because it was bad luck for everybody else. That, you know, I was a hitter. And I was one of the toughest on the field. And our high school football coach, coach Brandy Bethel loved me. He'd be like, that's my soccer player. She takes everybody out.

And I remember watching the guys. football team one night. And I was like, man, these guys are not good. Like, I could do more. Like, I'm a better, even just athlete than some of these guys. And I was my boyfriend, as funny as it was, like, at that time was the captain of the football team. And I was with him in the hallway. And we ran in the coach, but I was like, man, coach, you should let me play for your football team. Like, this is, this is ridiculous. And he said, you know what, Ms. Welter? You are a heck of an athlete. And you're right.

You could help my football team. But I'm going to ask you not to play. And let me tell you why. This man, I'm a football guy. I've been a football guy my whole life. And we are the worst ones. So here's what would happen if you played football. You would make one of these guys look bad.

It would happen. And then he or one of his buddies would cheap shot you. And I would kill him. and go to jail. Miss Welter, please don't play football. And I remember just like laughing because if he would have said

you couldn't do it or, you know, girls can't do it or one of those things, I probably would have done it just to, you know, throw it in his face. But with that answer, I actually really respected it.

And so I played, you know, I played the powder puff game. That was the first time I actually got to play, was the captain of the team, scored the only touchdown one and then went to college and found rugby for the first time. I had never even seen rugby. It's not a, it probably is now in Florida.

But back then, this did not exist. It's only football. And I was like, wait a minute. Like, I don't really know what they're doing out there. Yeah. But it is fierce. And they get to tackle. And I want to tackle.

Like I always just wanted to tackle. I knew I could. I wasn't scared of it. I just wanted to do it. And so I ended up playing rugby for Boston College all four years. Actually, this picture here is one of them. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, that's me right there.

Wow. And I was a prop in rugby. So played all four years, actually got recruited for the under 23 national team. And then they figured out that I'm five foot two. So I did not make the national team, but I had learned I could tackle anyone with no pads and no helmet, right? Like, I didn't need that stuff. Like, that's bonus, right? So I'm playing flag football on weekends.

And the general manager of a team called the mass mutiny called and asked if there were any girls playing flag who they thought could play tackle. Well, full disclosure, I just told you, I came from rugby. I didn't need pads to tackle. So they were probably like, get her out of here. Because I was really not good at flag. Like, why pull a flag when I could tackle you? Yeah. Never really sunk in.

So I went to an open tryout and made it for the mass mutiny. So that was, and that was it. Like, I was like, this is what I'm going to do. Like, I'm going to do this. Would you say that's where your life shifted from football being a thing that you were interested in to football now, being like the central focus of your life. Yeah.

And I had to reorganize my life to be able to play football. That's the difference between football for a girl and a guy. Like for a guy, it's mapped out, right? A guy could make the practice squad for an NFL team and be set really for pretty much the rest of his life. If he's smart with his money. Right. He could.

And for me, it was, it became work by day, play football by night and eventually go to school by very late night. We were paying to play. We had to fundraise to play. We had to shovel snow off fields. It was really a league of their own, except a league of their own actually had a budget. We didn't.

And so there was so much of a fight to even get on the field that if you're not in it with every fiber of your being, you're probably not going to do it, right? I remember corporate America, basically, which, you know, I had a business degree from Boston College, which is one of the top 10 business schools in the country. And, you know, them essentially telling me that they were afraid that if I played football, I would mess up my pretty face.

And, you know, I told them very politically correctly. Yeah, not so much where they could take their job. And I left because I remember thinking both of those guys who were having this conversation with me were college football players. And it was the coolest thing in the world. This is okay for guys. But for me, I might mess up my pretty face. And, you know, it wasn't a job that conflicted with my work hours. That wasn't the thing.

I was their number one grossing salesperson by far at that time. But it was this idea that girls shouldn't play football because, you know, I might not be as pretty if I did. And I was like, have we met? I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. You're lucky. I don't tackle you right now and show you exactly why I'm going to like kill this.

And so left corporate America had thankfully gotten certified to teach aerobics at first time when I was like 18. So always had that fitness background as an instructor. And then went and got certified to be able to train as well. and got a job at a gym. And within, I don't know, I think two weeks, I was running their personal training program. And that allowed me the flexibility to be able to set my schedule to do what I need to do for football.

If I needed to come in early on one day, so I could leave early for practice, I could do that. If I needed, you know, if Saturday was game day, like I could schedule people around it. And oh, by the way, I started doing before, like, CrossFit, It was a thing before, you know, boot camps were big. I was doing all of the footwork and agility drills I needed to do to be one of the best in the world. And I was just bringing a classroom of people with me.

And I made myself the rabbit on all the footwork drills and I'm too competitive. I don't want to lose. So I'm going to get really a lot faster and a lot better because you're all chasing me. And I'm competitive. And so I started really just designing my life around. what I needed to do to become one of the best players in the world. What was the goal at that time? I mean, as you mentioned, you're not making very much money, but you are playing pro football.

What's the goal as you're doing this? I always believed, you know, I remember hearing, right? I don't know. First of all, there was this old book that said the stronger women get, the more men love football. This is actually the title of it. And hearing along those lines, right? We're thinking back to Thanksgiving. And I still remember this, the dichotomy of women versus men on Thanksgiving.

You know, the men were watching football and the women were in the kitchen. And I didn't want to be in the kitchen. I wanted to play football. And yet society would tell me that I was wrong for that. Right. And there was this saying that stuck at the forefront of my thinking always, where they said football is the final frontier for women in sports. So for me, I took that as a challenge. And I know a lot of the women did too of like, when we win here, when we play this game the right way, can't we not only change

the sport, but change the culture through the sport, right? Sports have been social driving mechanisms for so long, right? Whether it was, you know, racial, or, you know, integration-based, why couldn't it be a gender-shifting mechanism as well? Why couldn't it be a unifying factor on Thanksgiving as opposed to a divisive ones? Why would America's game, right? Our game, the game that has taken over one day of the week and now more. Why was the passion and the love and the fervor for that game so strong for men and yet

off limits for women. Like, none of that made sense to me. And I believed, and I still do, that that could change by women being able to play that game and do it at the highest level. And so I always believed and had a chip on my shoulder that, like, this is what we needed to do to really shift the gender imbalance that is there in so many places in our society. So you're basically just saying, give us a chance. At least give us a chance. Yeah. Like screw. Why not? Why could we be everywhere else but football? Why? Why this sport?

The one that we love so much, right, that people are so obsessed with that American culture surrounds that surrounds itself in, why would it be okay by any standards that it just be for guys? Like, why does that make sense? If it's so awesome, why wouldn't girls want to do it too? What were the steps that you took along this? You're basically saying, I want to be a change maker. I want to create some change here. But what are the steps then that you start to take?

You just step up to every challenge because you can't start with a, or, you're a, or, or at least I didn't. And there are other people who I'm sure didn't think or operate the way I did. But for me, there wasn't a big goal, right? Like, it wasn't like I could say I wanted to play for the U.S. national team that didn't exist. It wasn't like I could say I wanted to play men's pro football. That was crazy. It wasn't like I said I could coach because she didn't exist. I couldn't see her. So for me, it really was put your head down and do work. And it just so happens that when I was playing and I was in, you know, the prime of Dallas Diamonds being one of the best teams, actually being the best team around.

Like we won championships in 0405, 06, and 08. Like, we're good. We're kind of the bad news bears for other teams, right? Like, they're like, oh, no, not the diamonds. And it just so happened that after winning my fourth championship in 2008, that they announced, like, there would be a U.S. national team in 2010. And I remember like, I got to do that. I want to do that. And it happened that the 2008 championship that we won was against Chicago.

and the Chicago coaches ended up being the national team coaches. And I had been a standout player in that game. So the fact that they hated going against me made me exactly one of the people that they would want on their team. And so I played my way through a lot of the challenges without necessarily saying like, oh, I got to do this to get to this. There wasn't this if-then statement, except for, when it came to the things that I was doing off the field, right? Obviously working to be one of the best on the field,

but off the field, I became really close with a lot of the retired Dallas Cowboys or current guys, not in the way that a lot of people think, but because they'd be like, hey, Jen, come coach at this camp. Hey, you need to be here. You need to meet this person. So I was an eager kid sister, right? Like I would volunteer for the NFL alumni association and just work with those guys and learn from them and listen to their stories.

And, you know, they would come out and watch me play and, you know, kind of put me in different spots where I, you know, I could network and get more people to hear and want to support women in football. And as I say, I was doing all the things off the field that I believed a pro player should do, right? I should go in and talk to kids at schools. I should coach at camps. I should be at charity events because being a pro is not a matter of what you get paid. It's your mentality. And I had four Super Bowl rings. And I had, you know, I belonged in those pro conversations just like anybody else.

And thankfully, the guys kind of adopted me and, you know, would come watch me play and do all that. And then simultaneously, I was getting my, you know, I was always a student athlete. Some people graduate and end being student athletes, know I knew because there was no career path per se for a woman in football, that what I had to do in order to be successful was to become a unique value proposition to the sport. And I believed if I could marry my practical experience playing

with, you know, a master's in sports psychology and then a PhD, that I could become a unique value proposition, that I would see the game and see the players in a way that was more full circle. And so hopefully invent a place in a space in sports where I was uniquely valuable. And funny enough, though I never saw coaching as being feasible, I had been coaching people in fitness since I was 18. So finding ways to break things down so that people could absorb them. I was coaching coaches on coach athlete relationships and feedback mechanisms and improving, you know, communication and those things. And yet never did I think, oh, I should take all of these things and go coach football, even as one of the best players in the world.

Right. So just an interesting, you know, an interesting thing, but doing all of the right things. for the right reason, so that when these opportunities came up, I just pushed myself to step out of my comfort zone and say yes. So you stepped out of your comfort zone and into coaching, even though this was not part of the original plan that you're talking about here. So how do you bridge that gap from going from player to then saying yes to being a coach? Well, first I bridge the gap from women's to men's. And I think that's one of the most important things I ever did in my life was to play in men's pro football. Because when I did that, we were on the same field and we saw the game the same way.

And it became less about, you know, male versus female than it did about like ball person, right? Like, oh, yeah, she knows her stuff. or like, man, that really worked because I was on practice squad for a lot of it, right? Which meant you go from being the woman, right? Like the one who's leading the team in tackles, like the dog on the field to now scratching and clawing and fighting to remain relevant or to not get cut. So for being top dog to now like the bottom of the totem pole. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's tough. And yet the guys saw how tough I was, right? Which was the thing. I mean, I never was like, oh, you can't hit me. I'm a girl. Like, that's job description, right? Like, it's happening, right? And they respected get back up, do it again, get better, right?

I'm not ever pulling myself out. Like, I'm taking huge hits and I'm getting tried probably harder than other ones. And, you know, full disclosure, I used to be the one who would try the people who walked on my field. and thought that they could just like prance on and get their spot, right? Like I was that one. And now I was the one on the other side of that. So I knew I had to get back up, just do it again. Don't complain.

Just line up, get better, right? Any place I could get in, get in where I fit in. And where I started to really fit and didn't even realize it is because, you know, in women's, I was on the defensive side of the ball. Now they had me at running back. That wasn't great running back. But I was great on defense. And so I would see things.

I'd be like, hey, okay, all they're trying to do to you is this. Like, next time try this. And the guys would do it. They'll be like, that was so dope. They're like, she's like, she's like our little coach on the sidelines. And they used to say it all the time. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. Like, I'm like, are you kidding?

Like, I'm just taking all the stuff like this in this little five-tune body and putting it in your big giant one. It's like I have master puppeteer, right? Yeah. Like Marvin the Marching getting to drive like this big spaceship. Like, hey, how cool. They get to execute what made me one of the best in the world, but in a much bigger package. And yet I never put it together again that I should just go ahead and be a coach. And it was former Dallas Cowboy Wendell Davis, who actually was at an event where the Texas

Revolution guys were. And I came in because like I told you, I'd been like a kid sister to all the Cowboys and I used to do a lot of their different shows and, you know, I would give perspectives. And, you know, so it was, it was my world. The revolution was never really in that world, but they were now because of Wendell. Wendell was their bridge. And so he brought them. And I walked in and we hadn't seen each other since, you know, it was off season. So we hadn't seen each other and all these guys like pick me up, toss me around like a football because relative to them, I'm one. And Wendell goes, who's this girl? that all my guys love.

Like, what is this? He'd never seen it before. And so he called me over and starts grilling me about football and what's good and what's not with that team. And, um, you know, my perspectives.

And I mean, Wendell is tough. Like Wendell is like in your face. Like, he doesn't back down. And I'm like, okay, bro. Like,

you want to have a ball. Like, let's go. Right. Like, and we talked for a few hours. the next day he called me and said, all my defensive coordinator,

and I could talk about yesterday was how you had to coach this football team. And I said, no. He said, what do you mean? No. I said, girls don't coach football. I'm not doing that. And he said, not a lot of guys are going to give you this opportunity.

You're taking this job. And I said no. And I hung up on him. So the next day, Wendell called me back and told me about myself. He said, Do you remember how I told you not a lot of guys were going to give you this opportunity. We're taking this job. He said, good.

I took it for you. You're coaching for me. And by the way, you can't quit. Otherwise, the entire narrative surrounding women coaching and men's pro football will be, we had a girl once and she quit. And I was like, what? But he saw something in me before I even saw it in myself. And I lovingly say he dropped kicked me into success because he recognized a football talent, not said, oh, you know what would be cool?

It's like if we had a girl. And like, does anybody know a girl? Hey, can somebody find me a girl? Right. Like, which is so different because to him, I'm hiring a football coach and I recognize talent. And I don't, I don't even know if Wendell realized just how big a deal it was at that time. we're still really good friends. But, like, you know, he was like, yeah, you should definitely do this.

Like, like the guys love you. They listen. They respect you. Like, why wouldn't you do it? He's like, he literally said to me, said, I can teach you to coach football, whether like, you know, run a software program or break down plays. Like, that's easy. But that, I can't teach that. Like, the way that they relate to you.

and love you and respect you and, oh, yeah, protect you. Like, the fact that you were a unifying factor on a football team as a female, like, that's special. And I can't coach that. And, you know, I think it really, you know, it was something I had always been outspoken about. Like, I would never play football with guys. Like, I'm not crazy.

Apparently I am. But it was. one of the scariest things I ever did and most definitely one of the best things I ever did because I wouldn't have gotten an opportunity to coach if I hadn't played with those guys. And I also, even if I did get an opportunity, I wouldn't have been nearly as prepared to be what you need to be as a coach, not to be the one in the front, but the one who's making sure that everybody on the field is the best version of themselves. And I don't know if I could have gone straight from being, you know, the woman to having to make everybody else the man.

I don't know if I could have done that. But it gets humbling really quickly when you're on practice squad. And, you know, hey, at least when I went to coach them, the stakes were a lot lower because they weren't getting hit me every play. Yeah. What do you think it was that made you say no originally? You're breaking all these barriers. You're doing all these things you're not supposed to be doing. Why do you think that being a coach was the thing that made you go, I've done all these other things, but that's the one thing I can't do. Well, you know, I mean, I'd played football. Like, I'd played.

And we had all played, and we were doing it together. It wasn't me on an island trying to change the game of football. It was all of us. And it was all of the sacrifices that all of the women had made together that literally made me be willing to maybe go out on the field with the guys and get hit and not be able to get up again. If I could change football for all the women who had sacrificed so much by playing, then that's what I was meant to do, right?

And that's what I was put in the position to do. But with coaching, it was not, it wasn't, you know, I had never done that either. Right. I'd played football. I knew I knew how to play football. But I'd never coached football. And there weren't any women that I could look at and say, like, I want to do. what she's doing. Like there

was nobody who I could say, I want to walk a mile in her shoes. I want to I want to be like her. And that now for me plays out in why I'm so visible and so vocal for other girls and other

women and other people who are defying stereotypes is because because I didn't have that, I could have missed some great opportunities. Right? And thankfully Wendell saw it in me that even I didn't see it in myself. But, you know, what if he hadn't pushed, then I wouldn't be there. And so we representation matters on so many levels. It gives us courage.

It gives us permission to dream. It gives us someone to look up who's breaking the rules or defying the odds, right? Like, and we need those. We need firsts. You know why? Because we can't have a second without a first. And we can't have a third or a fourth or a fifth or a wave of change without somebody who's out front. And I know it and I speak to it because I hesitated because I didn't have that. And I don't want other people to question themselves or their ability to do something different because they couldn't see themselves. So if my journey can give somebody else that fortification to go for it, then that's the most important thing I can do is the first, right? Because I always say, you know, people now have gotten to a phrase that I've used for years and years now, which is obviously,

if you're the first, you can't be the last. But I also really dig in and I say, the opportunity and responsibility of being first is to ensure you're not the last. Because you have to take it very seriously. You can't give them a reason to close the door. The entire narrative at one point of women coaching men's pro football was resting on me. Right? Which means, yeah, you can open the door, but you could also be the one who closes it. That's what's scary.

That's what I never wanted to be. oh, we had a girl once, dot, dot, dot. No, no. That's, that's the hard part. And once that first gets there, like, the first is divisive by nature, because you're disrupting the status quo. And that's hard, right? It's hard. There are people who don't like me because I coached while female or because of coaching while female. It just, they wanted it the way it always was. So it doesn't matter if I was very best. If I was Bruce Ariens or Bill Belichick in heels, wouldn't matter. because they didn't like the idea of me. And that is very difficult to swallow because there are people who don't know me,

don't know if I'm good, just don't like my existence. And somebody has to be willing to do that so that it can change. And then when you do that, you know, you have to be very conscious of just having the girl box be checked off. with your existence. So that's where the advocacy becomes so important. Like you have to speak to it. It's not enough. Like we need more women. We need to look at places where we can build bridges. We need to talk about these things. Give permission. Be visible. Be vocal. So that, you know, you go from being one, which inherently at first and being one means only. And only is very lonely to being a catalyst to a movement.

And it is still one of the hardest things on a day-to-day basis because people are looking at you for answers and for leadership. And you're like, wait, I'm still trying to figure it out. Right? Like, I don't know. I feel like it were to happen to anybody. You're the perfect person, a fearless, ruthless, badass to be leading the charge here. So walk us through how the conversation started with the Atlanta Falcons.

Well, I was with the Cardinals. A card. I'm sorry. That's okay. It's a lot of birds, right? A lot of birds, a lot of red. Yeah, so walk us through how this conversation began. So when I was coaching for the revolution, the NFL hired Sarah Thomas as the first full-time female ref in NFL history.

And a reporter asked Bruce Ariens if he could ever see a female coaching in the NFL. Oh, and his answer was the second a woman proves that she can make these guys better, she'll be hired. So I talked to my head coach about it. And he essentially said, well, we should call Bruce. Can you get me his number? And I was like, bro, don't you guys have like an NFL black book, right? Like, why am I getting his number, right? Like, you played in the league.

I didn't. Yeah. But, you know, we practiced at that time early in the morning. like 7 a.m. because everybody had to get, you know, to their other job. And I found myself with idle time, which we all know what that means. And so I went on the website and found the Arizona Cardinals and found their website and found a number and called the Cardinals on behalf of myself as if I wasn't myself. That day, I was not an assistant coach necessarily. I didn't say I wasn't, but I was calling on behalf of the head coach because he wanted to talk to their head coach about his comment that the second a woman proves she could make the guys better, she'd be hired.

Although it was not the NFL, there was already a woman coaching in men's pro football. And my head coach really thought Bruce, Coach Arians would want to know that. And apparently I was really convincing because I worked my way to BA's assistant, Wesley. And Wesley was like, man, yeah, BA would definitely want to take this call and talk to your head coach. Give me his number. So I left my head coach's number with him. And he was like, but just to give you a heads up, like, we're right before the NFL draft. So nothing happens outside of draft stuff.

So it'll probably be a couple of weeks. I fully thought that I had gotten blown off. I'm not going to lie. I was not like, oh, yeah, Bruce Ariens totally going to call back. What was going to happen? But I was really proud of myself that I had called the Cardinals. And a few weeks later, I walked into practice and my coach was elated. And he said, you will never guess who I talked to yesterday.

It was Bruce Ariens. And he said, tell me about this girl. And so, you know, it was really just a chain of events. events that eventually, like, he asked about me and, you know, did the guys listen? Did they respect me? Did I love the game? Did I know the game? He loved that I had a PhD. He asked if I knew how to read guys eyes, which is a big thing with Bruce Ariens, knowing that, you know, one guy needs something different than the next guy and may need something different one day to the next. And, you know, obviously that's a strong suit of mine. Having a PhD in psychology.

And so eventually he invited me out to OTAs. And we met for the first time on the sideline of OTAs. Wow. How much would you say that Bruce Ariens changed your life? Not only did he change my life, he changed football for all women. Right. You know, he opened a door to the biggest, the biggest professional sport that there is and the biggest boys club in professional sports. He did that, right? And he did that,

you know, in talking to him. I mean, he always said when he was the head man, he was going to do it his way. And that's what you see, right? He's doing it his way and using basically like his powers for good. Right. You saw this last year. He had two women on the sidelines, full-time positions, coaching, and all minority coordinators. Right. So, using his place and space in the game to create opportunities for others who might not have gotten a look if it was somebody else. The United States Soccer Federation presents the U.S. Soccer Podcast. My name is David Goss, and I'm joined by my co-host, Megan Clemembert.

And now we're giving people an inside look at the World Cup. Times ticking. I think you can feel the intensity. All the guys are wanting to really take their claim. and they want to be on that World Cup roster. There's no doubt about it. Hosting the World Cup on the home soil comes with its pressures, but we're just really excited just as the people are. The U.S. Soccer podcast, presented by Henko.

Follow and listen on your favorite platform. So, Jen, on day one with the Cardinals, how welcome did you feel and also how much pushback did you feel? Interestingly enough, the guys were actually really excited. And I never knew exactly why. But when I wrote my book, I interviewed PA and I asked him about it. And one of the things he said, which was so fascinating, was after he met me and he thought that, you know, I impressed him and that he said, you know, I think this is the right team. We have a great group of guys.

Like, team was already diverse. like, I think this could work. And he was like, you know, you're definitely the right woman. He said, but I have to get a lot of yeses. And I don't, I don't know if I can. But I want you to know it's in my heart to try. Well, most people would assume that he went to the top, right? Go to the owner. Go to the to the GM first. And then, you know, basically dictate to other people that this is what's going to happen. Right. But Bain never did that. He went to his. his locker room first. He went to the leaders on his team and I don't know which ones they were. I have my, I have my suspicions. But he went to those guys and he said, I'm thinking about doing this.

What do you think? Would you be on board? And when they said yes, when they said that they would be really proud to be a part of change in the NFL and shifting culture, then he brought it up to. the top. So he gave the players ownership and decision-making power from day one. So they weren't, they didn't have to be won over. They took ownership of that decision. And, you know, I think the fact that he did that is brilliant because if the players didn't want me there, it doesn't matter if I was, you know, Bruce Ariens in a skirt, right? If they're not going to listen, I can't force them. Right. You can't force somebody to absorb your knowledge, right?

They have to want to learn, whether it's because they see you do it or they, you know, you catch their attention. But they had ownership over that call. So the players, you know, I would say, it's funny, the outside narrative, which was the strongest was would players in the NFL take coaching from a woman, right? Like it was everywhere. And like, spoiler alert, first of all, duh, most guys have been coached by women their whole lives. Maybe not on a football field, but like, duh, if you can make them better, they'll listen. But the guys, it was never a question for them because they had made the call in the first place. Now, the outside world did not think it would work.

The outside world said, no guys, rough stuff sport in the world. They're not going to, you know, some woman, like, oh, they're probably going to come out wearing skirts or something. like rah you know but internally it was it was so good like the guys were really proud to be a part of history you know um they'd be like man coach can i get a cameo in the movie one day right like i got to get that walk on roll can i get that and i'm like oh my gosh you guys are so like crazy and i think they understood how big it was probably as insiders more than i did as an outsider. So we actually never had problems. And, you know, they wanted to know everything about my career. They, they loved the fact that I had played. Y'all guys say that girls talk.

What do you think was the biggest lesson that you learned from your time being on an NFL field? But wait, hold on. You guys say that girls talk. Uh-uh. You guys are so much worse. those guys knew everything about me before I even walked in the door. They knew I'd played on men's team. They talked to guys. I played on the team with them. Oh, wow. Oh, they knew everything.

They knew I played for the U.S. national team. They had watched my game film. So they knew I was baller, right? And so they were excited for that. So that is a big thing. Like, they knew everything before I walked in the door. So the guys were amazing. amazing and still some of my great friends to this day. But back to your question on what the biggest

thing I learned was, you know, there's so many. And it's a time where it fortified some things that I already knew. It made me better in so many ways. But I go to, you know, one of the, one of the people who really had an impact on me was a receivers coach called named Daryl. Drake. And Drake, unfortunately, passed away a few years ago. If you remember it, he was with the Steelers at the time. But, you know, we're on our first day and we're supposed to go meet the other coaches. Like, normally, I mean, I'm coaching linebackers and receivers coaches and that to talk to me. You know, knocked on the door and waved. And he said, coach, come in here, sit down. I want to talk to you. So, okay. And he said,

Guys like me, X is an O more than you've been a lot. I've forgotten more than you'll know, no matter how good you are. I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm aware. Right. And he said, but you know what you got that none of us old dudes have? Said, not only did you play the game, but you have that Ph.D. And he said, we need more of that in football. we need more of the care around these men and to pay more attention to mental health.

And it's not there. And I was like, okay. And he said, let me tell you a story. And he talked about coaching Brandon Marshall when he was with the Chicago Bears. And this was early in the time when Brandon Marshall was starting to talk about mental health and opening up about his journey being bipolar and some of those things. And, you know, Coach Drake said, I had to get better for B. Marsh. I had to get better as a coach, meaning not football, but psychology. And he said, I learned then just how important it was. And he said, you already have that. So you need to bring that to every

conversation you're in. Don't leave it at the door because nobody else has it or understands it. realize that that's the place that you can add value to every conversation, not just the football ones. And if he hadn't said that out front, I might have been more hesitant to really embrace that part, right? I think sometimes we're so tempted to fit into the boxes of other people that I might not have acknowledged or or felt as comfortable bringing that in being, you know, young in the situation. And yet it was, it was something that not only did I use on a day-to-day basis, but other coaches would ask me about stuff or, you know, if something went wrong or a player was struggling with something like it wasn't just I work with the linebackers. It was, hey, you know, can you

talk to so and so. And I'm like, yeah, I got it. No problem. Right. And so just having somebody acknowledge that what was different about me was actually an advantage, not a disadvantage, out front, really gave me the courage to, you know, go into the room and sit at the table as my whole self. And I think as we look at diverse conversations, sometimes that's hard, right? Like, okay, you know, we have a woman in the room, but if she's not speaking, then it doesn't matter. If she's not contributing an alternative perspective, then why do we have diversity in the first place? And so just really learning to not be afraid to not only walk in the door, but fully own, you know, my voice and what I brought to the table, both in terms of being a player, being a PhD, and also being a coach. with all the first that we've seen now in the NFL,

do you think we'll see a female player in our lifetime? You know, I go back and forth with that because, you know, I wonder sometimes, like, why is it that the ultimate goal of a woman is to compete against men? Why is that what we're looking to celebrate? Wouldn't it be much cooler to see a league and a place and a space

where women can make a living, playing football against each other and that they don't have to be the exception where they could rule their own domain and actually make money doing it. Just because I played against the guys doesn't probably makes me even more so think

why was that what it took? Why couldn't the women's game be embraced to the extent that it should be? Right. Why is, you know, and I know Sarah Fuller and I love her, right? And I know Kate Hendy and it's a very small community of women, Tony Harris, who played in college, right, against the boys, Becca Longo, who was the first girl to get a college scholarship to play football. Tony Harris, the first to do it as a position player. But, you know, why? When we're talking about one or a single instance, then that means the majority of girls. with talent and love for football are left somewhere on the chopping block. And we look at Sarah Fuller this year and what a huge deal was made of it. And yet we've had kicker's score points before. It's been a thing for a long time.

The world wasn't necessarily ready for it, right? We made a bigger deal of Sarah Fuller kicking those extra points than we did about me playing men's pro football. Why? Because society is more ready for it. Sometimes being early, it's really hard, right? Because, you know, people aren't yet used to the thought or going to embrace it because it's so drastic. And will we see it? I mean, people wanted to see it last year, right? Who was it that, you know, was at Eagles camp and she kicked. It was one of the members of the U.S. soccer team and she nailed it through the uprights. Now, could she have made that kick in a game? No, her, she took too many steps, so it would have gotten blocked. But did she have the leg strength? Yes.

If she could do it like that and somebody actually taught her how to kick, could she do it? No doubt. That's what they did with Sarah, right? Like she had the leg strength, she had the ability. And now we're going to teach you specifically how to do this element. So yes, it's possible. Could you see it? Yeah.

Will you probably? Yes, because it's in their best interest to see it. Just like it's in their best interest to see some of these international players start to come into the game so that the fan base becomes more diverse. But that means that you have to direct resources to it. And that talent has to be developed with the same intention so that it's not just a quudge, because it's not just a question of gender and ability, right? Like you see some of these, you know, you give me like Alex Felix or whatever.

I could make her a receiver, I'm sure, right? Like, she's ridiculously fast. She probably beat some of those guys in a foot rate. But with intention, are we giving her the same resources to fortify her with the long-term coaching that you need to be successful at any level in football? right? Like that's what we need. What, no, what position it is? Like, can girls and boys end up playing on the same field for sure, especially if there is a body type skill set, positional match that allows them to maximize it for sure. But we also have to fortify them with coaching over the long

term. And that is something that most girls have not gotten access to through the course of their life. that was a great answer to a not so easy question to answers. So that was amazing. I'm really curious to know you work with so many young players, both male and female. What's the one big thing that you pass along to them that doesn't have to do with football? I think, you know, one of the interesting things is I use football to pass on a lot of things, right? Like that becomes dietic. adjustable in the field of football, but then translates to the field of life, hopefully, right? Because football has so many great things that we can teach them on the football field, but you want them to know that it comes through that game, but it expands to the game of life as well. And so, you know, there's a lot of different things that I work with them on. You know, I'll use an example like for the guys, I coached the linebackers for Rod Woodson in Indiana. And yes, most of the time I get

asked to teach girls. So, you know, loving having Rod as like one of my big brothers having me out there with the guys. And he's like, yeah, I bring the best coaches and what, right? But like, we were in a meeting room and I think we had like 10 people come in during our meeting. And And the guys got frustrated. They're like, coach, why so many people? And I kind of laughed it off. And I'm like, guys, they just want to know if the girl knows what she's talking about. Right?

Like, don't worry about it. And they were like, really? And I said, oh, yeah, no doubt. And they said, does that make you mad? And I said, here's what we're going to do about it. All right, guys, you want a way to deal with this? And they were like, yeah. I said, okay, the next person who comes in,

everybody, I'm going to ask you what I taught you. And then you just go, Spirit Fingers. You all know Spirit Fingers, right? Because if I'm a girl in football, I must be cheerleading. So let's go Spirit Fingers. And they were like, they were thrilled. They were like, all right, let's do it. So somebody came in.

I was like, guys, let's show them when I taught you. Spirit Fingers. And everybody did it. And it was a woman who was like videotaping. And she was like, what is this? And I was like, guys, she wants to join us. let's give her a walk up. And I had all the guys clapping.

And she goes, I just want to see you coaching a model football. And I was like, okay, great. Now we're going to get back to that with no distractions. And I just turned around on the board and started it. And so when we left, the guys were like, coach, like, why did you handle it that way? And I said, what you have to realize is that when you post pictures after this and you say, I was your coach, you're going to get push back. It's going to happen. You're going to go, oh, she knew what she was talking about, would she teach you how to do spirit

figures, cheerleader, blah, blah, blah. You're going to hear it. So I want you to be prepared and fortified with an answer because it doesn't bother me anymore, but you can't let it take you out of your focus or make you value what we did here any less because they have questions about me. You can't let them have it make you question what you learn. And I said, so spirit fingers is actually something I learned from Cam Newton and Cam Newton do spirit fingers. But I said the reason I did it is because not only am I giving them the finger, I'm giving them all of them and doing it with a smile.

Because I know what their expectation is and I'm going to flip that against them. So that way you guys are never caught off guard. And they were like, man, I can't wait to hit somebody and tell them I learned it from a girl. And I'm like, see? now you're learning, right? Because you know you're prepared, but too often we do something different. And then we don't fortify people with the ability to, you know, face the ripple effects or to understand what somebody's going to use to break you down. With the girls, same thing, right? Like, I'm not, I'll ask him, like, how many of you have been told that you shouldn't play football? Perfect. Now that you know what they're going to say, what can you do?

about it and that's be really good and let your game speak for you let your game speak louder than your gender louder than your haters certainly louder than social media because when you're good even if the packaging is different someone will find you and if they miss you then make them miss out on you and give them whiplash with your ponytail as you run right by them and they say was that a girl right so it's it's so much i want them to be prepared paired for the world and the hard stuff. And I want them to see how great they can be. But to realize that it's not always something wrong with them if other people don't see what they're capable of. Because it happens all the time. And I tell them, I'm like, look, look at me. I'm five foot two.

No one ever looked at me and said I would be one of the best players in the world, right? Everyone told me what I couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't do. So the thing you can't do is let them be right. And so to be able to teach them things like that through football, like that's the great stuff. I mean, learning football is a lifelong journey. I still learn stuff about football. There's so much stuff I don't know about football. But if you can change their mentality about it and you can give them lessons, like they won't remember everything that you taught them, but they will always remember the way you make. them feel. And there are there are kids all over the country who maybe I got to have them for four hours of one day, right, which over the course of your life can be bigger, small, depending on what you take from it. It's not going to be just a technique that's going to change

your life. It's going to be the mentality and the approach through which you learned the game or learn to interact with the game or that technique or the other people around you that can, infuse confidence and motivation into all things that you do. And then you can take that into your own life and into your own journeys. I've had moms tell me like, you know, when when my daughter comes up to a hard time, she said, well, Coach Jen says this. That's, that's it. Right. I always told my players, too, like, that I wanted to be the voice in their head. Because I know what I would tell you. I can't control the rest of the voices. But, you, but, you know, you know, but. if you hold my voice in your head, you know what I see, you know what I feel, and you know how I feel

about what you're capable of. So take this raspy voice with you, wherever you go, and fortify yourself against the challenges of the rest of the world because we all have them. And so, yeah, when my players, actually, this was in the revolution, when they were doing, they were doing X-Men, you know, like going around saying, oh, he's this and he's that. And I was like, which one am I? They're like, yo, coach, that's so easy. And I'm like, okay? And they're like, oh, you totally Dr. Jean Gray, because you got that mind control, that raspy voice, right? We can all hear it. It's like you get into our head. And years later, I've said something. They're like, coach, right? Like, they'll look. And they're like, they got that.

And then they say, and we all know the Phoenix is in there. And none of us want to meet her. Jen, I've loved this. And you are such a badass. What's the best way that people can support you? Well, I have a book, which is Play Big Lessons in Being Limitless from the first woman to coach in the NFL. It's a great read, parts of my story, but written in. a way that it should be like each chapter you take something from. So kind of like I'm coaching

you along the way. That's a fun one. I also have a kids book series that I started during COVID. If you have any kids that are struggling, it's called Critter Fitter. They're all available on Amazon. And it's literally using critters to get kids fitter through motion and emotion. So with the crazy things going on in the world now, I realized no one was talking to the kids and helping them understand like social distancing or the CDC guidelines or things like quarantine and vaccines. And so we use animal-based adventures to help with that. Gridiron girls with three R's because it's like the gur of like, why are you leaving people out of football is what I do with the girls. We are on Instagram with the three R's and we'll be doing. at least six camps this fall

and are working on a nonprofit with that so that we can reach out to more girls. But if you want to find out and stay in touch with that stuff, my website is gen welter.com. It's a welterweight like welter, you know, welterweight in boxing.

Funny, I've been punching above my weight class my whole life because I'm not quite at that 145 mark. And then on Twitter, it's at J. Welter 47, Welter 47 on Instagram, and I am streaming, doing football content on Twitch now. So that's Twitch.tv slash Dr. Jen Walter. I love how throughout your entire life and everything that you've told us throughout this whole episode is no one can tell you what you can't do.

I mean, they'll tell you. You just don't have to let them be right. You know, I mean, I hear it all the time. I'm like, okay, cool. That's awesome. I'll prove you wrong now. Right. it just depends on whether or not you want to do that, right? Like, you know, you can tell me I can't

tight or walk and I'm going to say like, yeah, you're right because I don't want to. But if you did want to, right, I see no upside in that. So like, you know, the risk of splatting on a building, like not so much. And I don't do gymnastics either. You know why? Because I'm very firmly planted on the ground. So if you tell me I can't do that, I'm going to be like, good call, good call. But it has to be in what you. you want, right? And if you want to work and go after those things, then, you know, in what people tell you can't do, and let's get to the core of that, you know this as well as anybody, there's a reason why people say you can't do it. And it's not because they don't want good things for you or even

don't care about you or don't believe in you. That's, that's really not it. It's often the pain of their own life, of loss in their own situations. So I say that they're speaking from the scar tissue of their own heart and the loss of what they didn't do. And the difference is they think that they're protecting you, right? Being a safety net so that you don't fall too hard. But the truth is that a net is a net. And just as if it can keep you from hitting the ground too hard, flip the other way, it can keep you from flying. So it's just the perspective that you put on it and just realize that the first person you tell an idea to will have the biggest impact on whether or not it becomes sticky or not. So you don't want people around you who are just like, yes, yes, yes. You also don't want no, no,

no. You want a person to be on your inner circle of thought who if I say to you like, okay, I'm thinking about this and they don't say, oh, that's stupid. We all know those people. They don't get to know things until it's already done. Just why I don't care how close they are in your life. Get to know it at first. Later, you can read about it in the press journal or the paper or whatever it is, right? That's when you get to find out. The other people who won't push you are just kind of like, oh, you're the smartest person I know. Yes, you can do it. That doesn't actually help you either. It's the person who will say, okay, cool, like how, okay, so have you thought about this or like, what about this?

Or tell me more, right? That will allow you to explore the idea. You may decide that, you know, oh, I don't have the bandwidth or, oh, there's something like it or that would require me to do a lot of things I don't want to do, right? But someone else doesn't get to decide that for you. So fortify your inner circle with people. who want your thoughts and your thought process to be expansive. And then you'll get stickier ideas. The ideas that are really good will get really sticky and you'll start investigating and they'll get exciting and they'll expand and you'll bring people in that can help you build. And the ones that you decide, maybe later, because sometimes timing just isn't right. I have journals of ideas that some of them make it to the forefront of the world and some of them I look at, like, later, I'd be like, dang, that was a good idea, right? But which ones become sticky, become a direct result of who you bring into that idea? So fortify your inner circle with people who are

always expansive. They're not competitive with you. They want to see you win. And they, you know, and they will help you figure out how you can win. They may not be the answer, but they will, you know, they will ideate with you. They will brainstorm with you. And they will, they will, they will also be really genuinely excited for you when you succeed because then you don't have that threat of jealousy that holds you back to because a lot of people unfortunately success is not equally welcomed by everybody and you have to find the people who will you know will celebrate your success will we'll repost and um and and and and genuinely feel joy by what you do.

I end every conversation with the same question. So for me, I start and end every day with gratitude. I say out loud three things that I'm grateful for. So for you, Jen, in your life right now, what are three things that you're grateful for? Three things I'm grateful for. I would say, one, I am super grateful for, like, my family. It's small and wonderful. My mom and dad have always let me do, you know, what I need to do. My big sister is a wonderful big sister. She has a great family. My brother-in-law, niece and nephew, like every minute I get with them and they're far away. So I don't always get those minutes. I'm so grateful for. I'm also extremely grateful for my football family, which, you know, as a kid, I used to,

imagine that I would have the giant family reunion that I never got. But I found that in football. And there are women and men of every make model, shape, size, creed color, who I have played with, played against, coach with coach against them. And they all make me better, right? Like, the diversity in my life makes me so much better. And so, you know, I'm, I am extremely thankful for them. And then, you know, the, I guess, I mean, there's a lot of other things that I'm thankful for, but like, you know,

I am thankful for my own self, like, just the curiosity and not ingenuity because, you know, football got me. to kind of the big dance, but it's really been like my brain that's kept me in conversations. And so just the, I guess the journey of being a woman in sports has made me have to be resilient and have to be resourceful and have to be creative. and I think it's really important to look at the tough times in your life as the things that you

ultimately become grateful for because it's those lessons that have moved me forward. So I guess I'll be thankful for all of the tough times and the times that I didn't know how to do it, wouldn't have known how to do it and all the people who made it hard because they, They also made me strong. I've loved this. Jen, thank you so much for coming on. Absolutely. My pleasure, anytime.

And we're close. We'll do the next one in person. Yes. Yes, because I don't know the area. Well, I moved in a pandemic, so I don't know. Oh, me too. Nice. Nice.

So there we go. Isn't she awesome? What an inspiring, amazing story. And the next time that someone tells you that you can't do something. Just think back to this conversation with Jen and all of the roblox that she's faced in her life and her career. And look where she is now. A huge thank you to her for joining us on Insight. Huge thank you to you as well. Share this episode with someone who you know will love it and share it on social media so that we know that you're on this ride with us. Tag Jen on Twitter. She's

at J. Welter 47. On Instagram, she's at Welter 47. And you can tag me as well, I'm at Chris Van Fleet. And I'll leave you with this very appropriate quote from author Tom Hopkins. I'm not judged by the number of times I fail, but by the number of times I succeed. And the number of times I succeed is in direct proportion to the number of times I fail and keep trying. Be great. Be grateful. We'll see you on the next one for some more insight. Flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all.

Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom.

Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Allie. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.