Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Tommaso Ciampa on Triple H, DIY, Johnny Gargano, Being Muhammad Hassan's Lawyer

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Tommaso Ciampa (@ciampawwe) is a professional wrestler with WWE. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Ontario, CA to talk about his incredible matched in NXT, winning the NXT Championship twice, being trained by Killer Kowalski who also trained Triple H, his friendship and rivalry with Johnny Gargano and their tag team DIY, making his WWE debut in 2005 and playing Muhammad Hassan's lawyer, getting chokeslammed by The Undertaker, how his work in Ring Of Honor got him on WWE's radar, the psychology of being a heel, his diet and workout plan with our mutual friend nutritionist AJ Simms (@cementfactory), being a girl dad and much more! Join Full Time Creator for $1 at http://fulltimecreator.co Sponsors: MYBOOKIE: Get a 50% welcome bonus when you use the code CVV and sign up at http://mybookie.ag ZBIOTICS: Get 15% off with the code CVV and have a better morning after you drink at http://zbiotics.com/cvv GHOSTBED: Get 40% of your purchase with the code CVV at http://ghostbed.com/cvv MIRACLE MADE: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to http://TryMiracle.com/CVV and use the code CVV to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF BLUECHEW: Use the code CVV to get your first month of BlueChew for FREE at http://bluechew.com PLUNGE: Get $150 off your Plunge with the coupon code CVV150 at http://plunge.com BONCHARGE: Go to http://boncharge.com/CVV and use coupon code CVV to save 15% Quote I'm thinking about: "The quickest way to succeed is to start now and figure it out as you go. You can’t learn to drive in a parked car." If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are go. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blele. How are you, my friends? Welcome back to another one on Insight. I'm CBV, Chris Van Fleet. So good to see you here. And somebody asked me the other day, they're like, why do you say your name at the start of every episode?

Like, we know it's you. We know it's Chris Van Fleet. And honestly, it's so that people know how to pronounce it. It gets mispronounced all the time, which I get if you're just reading it, It looks like Van Vlaier or Van Vlaiette. People are like, oh, you're Canadian. It's French, right?

Van Vlié. It's Dutch. I think everything with Dutch is a van. So I just say it. So people know that's how you're supposed to say it. And I'm guessing if this is the first time you're hearing it pronounced Van Vleet, this is the first episode that you've ever listened to. So thank you for being with us.

Hopefully you enjoy this interview. And then you'll go back when this is done and listen to a bunch of of other ones as well. And speaking of people whose name gets mispronounced, it's funny how different WWE announcers call him Tomaso, Tamaso, Champa, Champa. It's Tomaso champa. He clarifies that like once and for all. And this might be the longest interview that Tomaso's ever done and definitely the most in-depth interview that he's ever done. What a career he's had. So many ops, we cover all of those, a few downs as well. And we talk about those, like some of the very poorly timed injuries that he's had. But what a run. And I feel like the work he's doing now, especially now that

Johnny's back. And there's another person, Johnny Gargano Gargano. It's so funny how it's, it's like people can't figure out which way it's supposed to be said. But the DIY stuff, so good. And we recorded this just before Johnny had come back. So there's like some nice teasings. in there because, I mean, come on. We knew Johnny was coming back. And we knew that if Johnny would come back, it would reunite DIY. And then it's like,

oh, at some point they're going to break up and then have some incredible amazing matches. But it's amazing that the first time we saw Tomaso champ in a ring was way back in 2005 when a clean-shaven Tomaso with a full head of hair was Muhammad Hassan's lawyer

and got chokeslamed by the under tigger. Remember that? The story he tells about it is amazing. So if you enjoy this episode or any episode for that matter, all I ask is that you share it with someone else who you know would enjoy it. We are one of the top wrestling podcasts in the world because of you and the fact that you share these episodes out with other people and keep growing the audience. So snap a screenshot, share this on social media, and tag us so we can share it out as well. He's at Champa, at Chris Van Vleet

and let's do it ladies and gentlemen please welcome to Moso Champa look at the size of these arms right here look at them yeah

yeah it's all I got though it's all you got I mean it's my feature point like some guys you're like whoa look at the chest or oh those legs but when you've got like I mean look at the bicep vein

yeah bicep guy that's a good vice a lot of biceps grown up you've also got you've got a great beard That's a distinguishing future. Do nothing for this. That's a thing constantly. What butter do you use? Brush.

I do nothing. I mean, now I put dye in it, of course. But not everywhere. I mean, you've got some great. I died this last night. If you went in my room right now, you'd see the dye kit. It's like, no, I don't want. You're going to be gray beard guy pretty soon.

I want so badly to be fully gray beard. Really? It just, that's my dad's look. That's what it does. That's natural. I actually loved, I don't know if you remember when, and people did not like it. But there was a time in NXT where I started to grow this back too. Yeah, yeah.

And this is like this part. It's my dad's, this doesn't grow. This does. It kind of has, you know, salt and pepper in it. And I was like, my like perfect look is this old distraught psycho killer like lunatic guy. who just cares about none of that and just shows up and does his thing. But maybe one day. That's actually a pretty great character.

Oh, that's my dream. You don't, you know, there's a lot of people as they approach 40 that are like, I don't want to look like I'm 40. And I'm certainly one of those people I just turn 40. But I'm like, yeah. But if somebody asks, so you're 40, I'm 38. Yeah. But if people would be like, he is way.

This guy's a decade younger. It's because I don't have a beard. Like, I could be your dad. That's, yeah, no, it's terrible. But we are, we are both dads. Yeah, not just dad. The best, isn't it? Girl dads.

Kobe. Kobe, just. It's something. What a thing. It is life-changing. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm very new to the dad, girl dad world.

Yeah, three and a half months is crazy to me. Yeah, three and a half months. She's five? She turns five tomorrow. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, by the time this is out, she'll be five. She has a birthday to Willa.

What is it? So, Rapunzel and Flynn, Ryder are coming to the house. Oh my gosh. My birthday was last May. May, May 8th. May 19th. Wow. Look at us. Look at us. My goodness. Tourist then, right? Yeah, of course. And she themed it. She had Elsa and Anna come to my birthday. And it was a big hit. Like, we had all the kids and stuff. So this one, she's been planning for six months now or something. But yeah, Flynn Ryder is like her jam. Like, that's her first love. I love how your birthday celebration really became her part. You'll be there and find years.

I mean, what do you do? Like, what are you going to do? I'm going to go out and have a couple of drinks and then what? Yeah. Nothing else makes sense. Like, you go on like a cruise or something, like a kid-friendly cruise. A Disney cruise? Yeah.

Yeah. Right. There's no, like, I'm just having an adult. I don't even know what I would do as an, like, I'm not really an adult anyways. Like, I am by age. Yeah. And by beard. Yeah.

By this. By all of them. I'm a grandpa. How do you still find time to work out? Because I'm struggling with that right now. Right. So, and I mentioned this,

you like, it, for me, it was very, it's all been like situational with her. Because I remember three and a half months, it's like they nap a hundred times a day. Yeah.

So I think at that time I was catching it in naps. There was one point where I was getting up just four 30 a.m. Because it was like, I got to do this, have me time before the day starts. She hit a point where I remember at one point, distinctly. It was midday stroller right around the block. There's the only way she'd go down. She'd go down like three hours. Three, oh my gosh. I mean, this was like a six-month stint.

You know what I'm saying? So it's just, it's just had different, like I have to adjust accordingly to her schedule. Now it's easy. She's in the school. So it's, you know, by the time I get home Tuesdays, my training days end up being Wednesday, Thursday, Friday when she's at school. and then I'll catch one Saturday or Sunday. Yeah, yeah. To be like, all right, we ran her into the ground. I know I have an hour. I'm going to go.

Our naps are like 20 to 45 minutes. Yeah. And you never know how long it's going to be. We would nap with her all the time at that stage because I was like, I'm never going to get six to eight hours. Yeah. So we just napped with her like constant. Like it was just our way to cycling.

But we're also lucky. And I don't know your citri is like, obviously with wrestling, now I travel, but at the time, it was very much like coming into the pandemic. Right. So even when you were working, you were just driving. We were home all the time.

Yeah. Like I've seen, when she was first born, I had neck surgery almost right away. And then I came back from neck surgery for like five months in the pandemic. Yeah. So for her first five years, I'm like, man, I did her night bath like four and a half years of that. Oh, that's the best.

I had this thing. You probably saw it. I was getting into the best shape of my life. for my 40th birthday. With AJ, right? With AJ. So we have the same coach, nutrition. I mean, yeah, I get fitness coach, nutritionist.

He's everything, really. It's the best. Yeah, yeah. Cement Factory. At Cement Factory and Instagram. One of the big reasons that I did it is because I saw your results. Oh, that's cool. Like, you were before and after.

Stupid. You were already in phenomenal shape. Stupid, though. Right? And then you dialed in. I wish I didn't do it because I see the, like he'll put, you know, AJ, he likes to post his transformations. Yeah.

And I look at it and I'm like, oh, am I ever going to hit that? Like, it was nuts because, again, that was pandemic hit. And we were locked in. I remember reaching out to EC3 and I was like, hey, I got to, I need something. Like, I need something to, you know, focus on and fulfill things and whatever. And I asked him, is there any coaches around that you suggest? He suggested AJ, we met up and we, that whole, it was 16 weeks. I mean, it wasn't like one bite.

off track unmeasured. Wow. It was just, I had nothing else to focus. It was like, all right, I got my kid and my wife at home, and then I'm just going to do this thing. Yeah. I always wanted to try to do a competition. So I was like, this is my time to do it. Yeah.

But yeah, dude, it was his diet. He's like a whiz. It's brilliant. And you eat a ton. You eat so. That was the thing that shocked me. It was six meals a day with like, dude, when I got to meal four or five, especially meal six, I'm like, I just, I can't.

Right. How am I going to? And he just keeps bumping. This food's in front of me, but how am I going to digest this? He's going to go to 250 grams of rice now and 300 cereal. And you're just like, that sounds awesome if I was starving, but I'm not actually. No. Yeah, yeah.

But I think the one word that I keep coming back to when anybody asks me about that transformation that I made is discipline. Like, anybody can do it. Like, he literally tells you when to eat, how much to eat, what to work out. Like, he just lays it all out for you. You would actually be doing yourself a disservice. to go off track there. Yes.

Because he's basically saying, okay, it's Monday, this, this, this, and this. You go, oh, great.

All you have to do is that. Yeah. And it's amazing to me how a few people can do it. Oh, dude, it is hard.

Like, I mean, because it's so much stuff that in life, like foods are part of. You know, I know, I know,

this birthday party. I got this thing, like, like, it has left over, just any, there's so many reasons to just slip.

Yeah. You know, and that was so, that was the best part of it for me was I lived at home the whole time with no travel. Yeah. I can prepare it. I don't know how it would. Oh, man.

I was like we did. My wife's from New Jersey. We spent a week back in New Jersey when I was like, I don't know, like halfway through it. And so I took three meals on the plane. Right. As soon as we landed, we went right to the grocery store and I was stocking up on ground turkey and rice and oatmeal and eggs and all, you know, all that stuff. Although the cool thing about that is it doesn't matter where you live.

all of the food he has on your menu. It's so easy to find anywhere. But it was how quickly the results start to dial in. Yeah. That's amazing. And then they go away like 10 times faster. I don't know. You still got a bicep vein here.

I very rarely had a bicep vein. No. Well, I'm a vascular guy in general. But, I mean, when you get to that level, if you slip for three days, you at least feel like you've thrown it away. You're almost 20 years into being a pro wrestler. This is pretty crazy when you think about it. 18 years, right?

2015, I stow. 2005. 2000. I wish I was young. 2005, that was my first match, I think, January, 2005. So you're coming up on 20 years. And when you want to talk about transformation, like the way that you look throughout your career is vastly different. Yeah.

I mean, I had here. You had hair. Pack of a good looking little prospect in wrestling. Yeah. Yeah. But your story is pretty amazing because first match 2005, then that same year, you're doing stuff with WWE. Yeah.

Like, you must have just thought, like, I've done it. That's it. You know, when I signed up for Killer School, which turned into chaotic wrestling, at the time, though, Killer Kruoski, originally, I was living in Everett. He had a school in Malden. That was 20 minutes away, maybe. This is like, I could take a little. bike there type of thing.

And I remember going. I was going to sign up while I was in high school. And he actually was like, don't finish school. You know, he's like, we might be moving. Yeah.

Because I don't, you know, spend your money now. Wait, which is so unheard of in this like carney business. Uh, so I waited. I finished my senior year.

And then I immediately, uh, spent $500 on this purple van and drove up to North and over so I can start training. But his school felt to me like, it felt like if you were to say, hey, I want to be a doctor. I'm going to go to college, go to this. I have to get this degree.

I got a doctor in school. His school felt that way for wrestling. Like at that specific time, it was a different era, indie wrestling and stuff. If you wanted to go to WV, go to killer school, they're going to start sending you to TB when they're local and in town, wear your suit, go backstage, have eight by tens ready. Wow. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Be polite. Have the right attitude. It was so, it was almost like, is it this easy, really? And it kind of was at that time. Like, if you look at the group of guys there, like Kofi got signed within nine months of being there. There was Palmer, Cannon, Brian Mayhot. He was signed, you know, within a couple of years. There was just a lot of us who got opportunities.

And if we weren't signed, we at least had tryouts or we were in front of them. So it felt that way, it felt like, oh, this is a shortcut. It wouldn't work now, but it worked back then. Is it because Triple H trained with Killer Kowalski? At that time, they just had this thing where if they, for TV, they had their people, like, around the country of if you were in New England, they went to killers. If you went to, like, if they went Midwest, they take Harley's guys. So certain schools had a relationship with them. So you were like, oh, if I'm at that school, I'm going to 100% get picked to go do this thing.

So, like, you just knew. And, like, it wasn't the best guy. per se. You know, like they were better, like, Ring of Honor had better talent like that. I couldn't even touch back in 2015 or 2005, six. But I just knew, oh, I'm in the right place. If this is a business transaction, I'm in the right place. And this was just proximity. You just happened to be lucky to live in that area. Yeah, I mean, I lived in mass, you know, so it was like an hour drive every day to go to class. And even that felt very systematic. Like the school we came up in at Killer Kowalski's were at chaotic wrestling. Mike Hollow is our train. and he was very diligent. He didn't care so much about like a five-star match. It wasn't really a thing then. Maybe it was for Meltzer, but it wasn't like a highly touted thing.

He wanted like basics, footworks, attitude, presentation, like, are you a good person? And so it all felt so simple for me of like, like I was a football kid and a basketball kid.

So it felt like, oh, you're giving me the playbook and the drills and you're just telling me you go work. Yeah. If you tell me work, you're never going to be disappointed. I'm never going to,

miss. Like, and that's the, that's why like the gym and the dieting too, because I'm like, I control this. Yeah. If I do the work, I get the results. And that was Hollow's thing. You know, it was before, uh, like once you got there, like once you got to OVW or Deep South. Yeah. Now you're in their world. Now it's, and I mean, I feel miserable. Six months later, I was fired because I wasn't prepared for it at all. I had the fundamentals down, but I was like, be a star. What? But. But. But you got to be in the ring with The Undertaker. Yeah, that was super cool.

And I feel like that was like an Easter egg that people discovered like a decade later. Yeah, yeah. You know, when you had your, you know, recent, you know, this current run with WWA, people were like, oh, that's the same guy. That's Mohammed Hassan's lawyer. Yeah. How did that whole segment come together? Similar. Being in the right place with Chaotic, they called up the promoter at the time, Jamie, and they said, hey, we need, which is a weird suggestion.

from WV for what we need, but we need guys under six foot tall who look like they could be like fresh out of law school. So and if they have like, and they, I forget how they worded it, but because it was for Hassan and Davari, like they wanted you to have a certain like look. I figured what their wording was for. So three of us get sent. It was me, this kid Matt Logan, and this kid Chase. I'm, I want to say maybe I'm like at that time.

I'm six months older than Matt, younger than Chase. But we didn't have anyone who was like, which is so weird now thinking about wrestling, but we didn't have anyone who was 26, 7, 8, 9th, 30. I was all kids. And we all went there. I borrowed my brother's suit because I didn't have one. And the three of us are in catering. And John Laurenitis comes in.

He just looks at us. And he's like, yeah, I think he's going to do. And that was the end of that. You're like, okay. Didn't know exactly what we were there for. And then all of a sudden, like, it was. the whirlwind of a day. Like Stephanie McMahon comes up to me next thing I know and takes me for a tour. And I'm like, what the heck is going on? So like an individual tour, this is the backstage.

This is where we do this. This is that. And I remember like to this day, her just saying, it's just like the independence just with like a lot more money behind it. And I was like, it's not like that. But she was the nicest person ever. And I was like, this is crazy. And then finally like, you know, I do the whole thing and stuff. And they were like, you know, you're going to read this. this script and you have a writer Ed Koski who's still like to this day with the company headwriter and they they kind of let it slip to me later in the day as they went on there like this is super important like at that time they did something with Hassan I forget what it was but it was like I want to say something happened with terrorist attacks too and it like UPN was under crazy heat

It was the London bombing, yeah. It basically killed his character. Yes. He disappeared after this. But they were like, you have to do a apology for his actions last week. It has to come off sincere and real because we're actually apologizing to the network on live TV because that's what they've requested. And it was just bizarre because in my head at this point, I'm like with Jamie the promoter. I'm like, why didn't they just hire like an actor?

Why didn't they hire somebody? professional. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, this is so bizarre. He's like, you know, but I was a promo guy. I've always been proclamation. He's just like your penmanship promo. Just go do one of your penmanship promos.

I'm like, thank God I have this like script. I can read it. And they were like, you're reading it. You don't have to memorize it. So I was like, okay. And then I did a, I did an in ring rehearsal with Undertaker with Hunter and Steph and Vince and everybody watching me. But at what point did they tell you, oh, this by the way is with the Undertaker.

I mean, it was likely when I read the script type of thing. Because the day, the day was insanity. Like, because you did the in ring thing. Yeah. Then I had to go, I remember being outside Vince's office because I passed that test. And now I had to go read it for him in his office. Oh, my gosh. Just us.

And you hear screaming and a door slam. And I'm like, what? Michael Hayes looks at me. And he's like, what are you here for? And I tell him, he's like, you got no ever chance, kid. walks away. I'm like, oh, God. I walk into Vince's office and like, I'm super nervous. Vince is there.

She's super polite. And then Hunter just walks out. And he's making like muscle milkshakes. And he's like, and I don't know why, but like the jock in me was just like, oh, there's just a couple of dudes who just worked out and having a shit. It just like eased me completely. Yeah, yeah. So I read the thing for Vince, he took one word out because I didn't know how to pronounce it properly,

put a different word in. It was one of those days where you're just like, what is happening? Like, by the time I got in there with Taker and did it, like, even that was surreal because I want to say it gives me a choke slam and then a tombstone. Yeah. But it gives me the chokeslam. And we used to have this thing where we'd go for, we'd call them treats. We'd go every day after class.

It was just to the 99. It was food. We'd say, we'd say, when we left each other, big, thank you, daddy. Bye, daddy. That was our thing. I'm not kidding you at all. He chokeslams me. And he's picking me up.

He goes, Nice and easy, daddy. Even that moment, like, it is crotch about to take a tube stone, like, laughing and smiling to myself, like, this is just what we do. This is so weird, you know? Wow. It was just, it was the weirdest. Like, they, they let me keep the suit.

They gave me a cool payday. It was nuts, like nuts. It almost became my career. Like, yeah. Like, it was a career break, but it almost became a massive break. Like, I got a call the day after from, I think, Laurenitis, who was like, hey, they loved it. You're going to come back next week.

You're going to be in a wheelchair with a neck brace. We're going to really push this thing. And I never heard back after that phone call. And then Hassan lost with the pay-per-view and disappeared. Yeah. I think it was never to be seen again. Yeah. It was like a legit heat that happened.

But at the same time, like that, I mean, that could have defined your career. 100%. And then, you know, the man who's sitting here in front of me right now would not exist with the career that you've had. Oh, yeah. It'd be totally different. Totally. You'd be, you know, suit and tie guy with hair. There's so many of those things that happen in your career.

Like, I often think like, oh, man, if I didn't break my neck and had that New York match, I'd take up. Like, there's so many times in your career, like, that would have changed the projection of going forward. This episode is brought to you by full-time creator, which is my company. I know a lot of you who listen to the show are fellow podcasters or fellow YouTubers, or maybe you dream of starting a podcast. or a YouTube channel one day, but you don't know how to do it. That's why I started the full-time creator mastermind with my buddy Travis Chapel.

You can either thumble your way through this and try to figure it out on your own, or you can learn directly from me. Someone who's been there before knows what works and more importantly, knows what doesn't work, so you don't have to waste your time on it. It's $1.00 to get started at full-time creator.co. Yeah, $1 to get started.

And if you decide that it's not for you, well, then all you're out is $1. And I would hope that the content you're making is worth the investment of at least $1. So if you're a creator who wants to take things to the next level and you want to one day make this your full-time thing or even better, if you just want to make some money from this and you're tired of putting out content that nobody sees, it's time to start investing in yourself. So if you're serious about this, sign up and join me today at full-time creator.com. I think we need to straighten this out for everybody because depending on who's saying it and depending on the day, your name gets mispronounced or gets pronounced very differently. Yeah. I've got to switch my name. How is it?

Is it Champa? It's Tomaso and then it's Champa, like Tampa. Champa, yeah. Why are we getting Chompah? Champa and Sampa. Yeah, I don't. It's on me, man. I don't know.

What do you mean? It's not on you. Pick an easier name. Like, wrestlers out there. Pick an easy name. I mean, Tomaso is my birth name. Right. Champa.

And like, Champ is my godmother's name. That's who we grew up with my whole life. So when I picked it, it was very much like for them. I remember like getting the plates with champ on them put on the title and like just like tears. And just like this is the coolest thing. And I have two little cousins who they're the champas and they love.

wrestling. So this is the coolest thing for them. With all of that said, pick a name that's easy to spell in redoubt. Especially when you guys were DIY because it's Champa Champa, Gargano Gargano. Depending on who was saying it. I think Maro was saying Gargano's name.

You just switch back and forth. Yeah, and I'm like, which one is it? Yeah. Yeah. Our debut, Regal says my name, Rugg, and I give him this funny look, and people have picked up on it. So sometimes that video will come circulate back. I'm like, look at that side eye shampoo. You know, like, come on, we know each other.

But think of the trajectory that you were on. Like, you know, you're not even a year into this. Now you're in WWE. You've done something with The Undertaker. You get signed a developmental deal. You must be just thinking, like, this is too easy. Yeah, I was on like the Kofi track, man. And then they sent me trying to think of what happened first.

I want to say they sent me to deep south with this guy, Arch Kincaid. know if you've ever heard of him no but if you're ever bored one day go on youtube and you can go on an awesome arch kinkade promo thing this guy's one time we were backstage and extras used to always have matches always they don't anymore but we had we'd have matches to be in front of like arne and randy and it was so much pressure uh and arch one day was like i'm just going to referee he was a odd duck like the coolest but like this is like a genius like a master's dude like three master's degree.

Like that one. And he's like, I'm just going to referee today. I don't feel like getting a sweat. Like, oh, okay, yeah, sure.

And at one point in a match, Stephanie McMahon's like, uh, hey, please don't spill my water. And the rest of the match, the, any time in a park.

Oh, no. Don't go near their water. It's Mrs. McMahon. You don't want to spill her. And he would just do these crazy arch king kate thing.

And like, I remember watching him that day, being like, oh my God, he's going to get signed. because of a guest referee thing. Anyways, fast forward a few months and him and I go to Deep South for a tryout. I remember the critique being if we could give you being me, his character, or him, your ability.

You guys would be signed in a heartbeat. But unfortunately, they felt like I was lacking the character. He was lacking the ability. That's got to be tough feedback to hear too, because you probably think, you probably think you're doing enough work with your character. And you're like, no, no. Okay. Yeah. I'm like, so I'm like, I'm a shy kid in general.

I was never like, like the most, like I was, I was popular in school because I was good to sports, not because like I was like class climbing. Sure. You know. So I found it very difficult coming into wrestling to do the camera stuff. I wanted get me to ring as fast as possible and ring the bell and then let me do my thing. Yeah. And then get me out of it.

But then when I could be a heel, I was like, oh, yeah, some light bulbs went off. But when we went to this tryout, we were tag team baby face guys, generic, rah-rah. I knew I wasn't presenting the best of myself. So when I got the feedback, it was very much like, well, yeah, I didn't get to do any of my hill. Like, I didn't do one hill promo or match. Yeah. So I wasn't surprised.

Then they came to our school chaotic and they did a trial where it was weird. They sent like Dean Malenko and they sent like four producers. it was like a legit tryout. That's when Kofi got signed. It's like, we were just on like this crazy fast track. But I don't know. At the same time, I also had like a, I've always been a realist.

So I was like, oh, you're doing well, but I'd wrestle with guys really good. Anyway, I'm not. Why show? He had some Johnny at the time, which is Ivar now. He was light years ahead of me. He was like a guy who trained me.

This is this kid, Andre Lyons, the Logan brothers. who never quite made it, unfortunately. But then we had some Ring of Honor guys coming. John Walters would come in. Austin Aries came in. Low Key came in. And I just remember watching them and just going,

oh, you shouldn't get signed. These guys are so good. Sure. And you've got to just get good first. Like, you're good for this. You're not good for that, you know? So I've been a realist my whole life. So even when I got signed,

like I remember like driving Kentucky. I'm thinking, Mike, you gotta hope you get lucky because you ain't ready for this at all. Do you remember the moment when you were a kid where you were like that? I want to be a wrestler. I was like, so I was a huckomaniac, and I would always play with the toys. I'd sit cross-legged in front of the TV Saturday morning. And like I had my book with my records and I had my red marker for blood. Like I was

Records of the matches? Oh yeah. Wow. I was the Booker, man. Yeah. So I've just always loved it. And then Brett was my first like love. I think Hogan was like a whoa larger than life superhero.

Brett was like, hmm, maybe you can do this. Wow. You know what I mean? He was relatable and he would sell and he, he was so real. Like his promos didn't feel like Ultimate Warrior. They felt like a real human being.

Yeah. And so he was just, that guy for me where I was like, holy crap, like, this is a thing. And then once I discovered the school and stuff, it just, like, I mean, I stopped playing, I was decent at basketball. I stopped playing, I think, my sophomore year. And I created a weight lifting club at my school. Wow. Because I was like, I can't play basketball. I'm going to go wrestle. I have to get in shape. And I started to like, I was just, there was no, no one was ever going to say to me, like, you're maybe do this. And I was pretty intelligent in school. Like, I had great grades and stuff.

My mom wanted me badly to go to law school. Like I went to, I did two semesters of school, Dean's List, all that. I did the undertaking thing on TV. I remember coming home, just big, mom, I can't go to school. I can't do it. I was like, I probably could do it. Like, I could probably succeed. I was like, but I can't.

I just didn't. I just knew, man. You just know. Like, when it bites you, you know. Yeah. I think one of the things about Brett that I feel like makes him really relatable is how good he was it selling. So you're watching his matches. and you're like, oh, I really feel for this guy.

He's really getting beat up. He gets the white spit. The white, he always looked exhausted. Like he went through a war and you were just like, oh. But even today, I watch breath. If there's like, I try to keep up with current stuff like when I'm doing cardio. That's my time to watch Koresa. I don't have time with Willow at home.

Like, it's just cardio. But if there's not a current thing that's like, oh, you got to watch this match. Yeah. It's every time it's pull up Brett stuff on YouTube to this. I've watched him in Bulldog and perfect him and Piper like a thousand times. What's your favorite Brett match? It depends on the day. I think him and Bulldog, like, has such like a memory value to me as like how invested I was as a kid.

But I mean, all the Iron Man with Sean, like just I, there's so many Brett, all the Brett Austin stuff. Like Brett being in a wheelchair and doing the heel thing and being a kid who like was so in love with him. and I was just hitting that age of starting to kind of get wrestling. It was a work. And then it took me a while to accept that I could boo him and hate him. To me, he's one of the best that's ever done. He's so damn good. There's no question.

There's no question. So you're in OVW or in developmental. It doesn't work out. You kind of find your way for the next, what is it? It's like eight. I stumble along my way. With some great stuff in Ring of All right. Honor. How do you find your way back to WWE?

So to be honest, it was kind of my last shot because I was doing the Ring of Honor thing. And I remember towards the end of the Ring of Honor thing, like having that moment where I was like, oh, this is clicking. Like something new is clicking. I don't know what it was, whether it was connecting with people or how to have more main event style matches. But something was there. However, at the same, Sinclair had owned Ring of Honor and they were doing all the contracts and stuff and there's no way

I could sign with where we were at because like I could feel myself on the brink of something I don't think they agreed but I had this one conversation with the owner I forget what is Joe Chose Sinclair I forget what his first name was

but at the time he was just like he offered me 20,000 a year and I could still do indies and I was like man I can't make a living off that and I was running a gym at the time and I was up at like 4.30 every day I was exhausted I was like man I got to either make money wrestling or just focus on the gym uh and I remember saying I'm like I need like a legit contract yeah you're like no one's gonna ever pay you more than 20,000 to wrestle and I was like oh

like literally in this is the conversation I just went oh I was like okay so yeah we're just done and he was like excuse me I was like oh no you yeah, I'll just wrap up it in, I think it was April or whatever. And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, I didn't realize like, that's how you viewed me. I was like, I thought we were going to have like a conversation. I was like, if you think that, I was like, I'm not going to waste my time. I was like, we're cool, we're fine.

I just, I don't know, I felt real confident, you know. Yeah. And so that was it. I wrapped up in San Antonio. I think I had a match with Lethal maybe. And that next year was crazy. Because me and my wife had a conversation. I was like, listen, I'm going to give it one year.

I was like, I think I can do this. But if I can't, it's fun. Because we wanted to start a family. We had a house. I was like, one year. And I left them in May. And in September, the next year, DIY debuted for next day.

Wow. Yeah, it was in. But even if that didn't happen, I definitely would have extended the year thing because that next year I made six figures, which the 20K. Yeah, it was. You'll never make more. than 20K.

Yeah, it was, it was nuts. I became, Psycho Killer became a thing with the talking head song.

I started getting AAW in Chicago gave me a big break, PWG gave me a break. And it just, everything claimed. It was like that whole persona,

Psycho Killer created, and it was just nuts. So how did you get back on WWE's radar for the Dusty Road? They had a tryout. At that time, they were starting to look at indie guys

because Kevin did so well and Rami or Sammy Zane. I call them you. Terrible. But the Indie guys were doing well. So they had like three indie tryouts lined up.

I don't know if we were the second, the third, the first. But my wife is really good friends with ex-writer Rocks guy, Brian Gerwitz. Yeah. And like she just kept going,

you just got to ask him for the favor to get him. And I was like, I can't like, I'm not a favor guy. we had got to know each other fairly well and finally it was her that convinced it she's like just ask him she's like you're you know where you're at like physically because obviously I've had a lot of injuries

she's like just try to get in before it's too late so I just called him up and like Brian what do you think like you would you put your name on me to see if I can get in one of these indie trials I mean like seconds and it was a few days later or something I got called that oh you're going to be part

of this crew it was me Biff Bucig, or Only Lorkin, Johnny, Drew Guleck, it was a crazy class. The TMDK is that a The Mighty Don't Fall, yeah. Or don't Neil? Yeah, those guys, it was a good group.

But we went and Johnny and I were literally like one in Chuck Taylor was there. We were one and two in the line. And we got put together, like room together and got a car together. Not because of us. Like we barely knew each other. Yeah.

But that was just how they did it. They picked two guys and just, You're in the same room. You're in the same car. So we just started immediately getting grouped. No idea why. And then we all got the no, you know. Yeah.

Like I think one guy got signed and it was Biff or only Lorkin. We got the no and Regal immediately pulled us to decide. It was like, listen, I know there's something. We got to find an opportunity for you guys. Just please don't sign somewhere. Bear with me. And we just kind of waited it out. Not that we were in a rush to sign anywhere else.

And two or three months later, we got called for the Dusty Classic. Wow. Yeah. Was it you guys that you and Johnny wanted to be together? Or did they see something in you guys? No presentation from us at all. Like when I tell you, we randomly got put in the hotel and stuff together. And I think they started to just think, all they must be friends.

I have no idea. Or it could have just been regal. He liked both of us a lot. And that might have been what it was where he was just like, oh, I get this tag team tournament and we need extras. man you know so that whatever it was but we we ended up being like married according to wb like if you saw our developmental it was nuts like there was a point where because we weren't signed right we were just two dudes doing nxc that's right indies for months it was awesome it was like unbelievable because you had that rub and then you got it was just the best um and then even when it

came time to get signed like i forget exactly that's why i told you before my memory is so bad like Johnny could sit here and tell you like the dates. But something happened in our process where my shoulder was kind of a mess. And I want to say we went to do physicals for something. Oh, we were going to get signed to this contract that was never done before. It was like this new hybrid Samoa Joe deal where we would actually be signed to them. But we could still do indies. It was real bizarre.

And we could stay home. That's exactly what it was. We got sent to Pittsburgh to do a fiscal. And I didn't know at the time my shoulder was like, I knew it was a little wonky. But I like feel the physical miserably. Wow. And they sent me for an MRI. They're like, oh, you need surgery.

So because of that, we were like, well, I'm going to get surgery. He'll continue to do NXT. We go to the next taping and Hunter pulls aside. He's like, listen, I don't know if you hurt yourself here or not. He's like, you've been here like six months at the time. He's like, I feel like we should take care of it. That's the right thing to do. and he was like,

but what do you think about signing a full-time deal and we'll take care of it and you can rehab it here when the time comes? Wow. But full-time deal. And I was like, I mean, that's a friggin' no brain here. You know, I was like, of course I'll do that. And it was so funny because we're here.

Johnny's like right over there. And then he's like, I mean, of course Johnny's going to sign too, right? And I was like, I'm assuming. It was so busy We were like a package in there Like over to Emma like hey so they want I was a signpost she's like we gotta move We gotta move

And you're like whatever I guess So like it was just weird Like we've always been that like just grouped Wow I've known Johnny for a long time I met him when I was in Cleveland I think it was 2010 or 2011 We were doing some stuff for PWO

In Cleveland Prime Wrestling Ohio And I remember him saying like it's WWE. WWE's the goal. Because at the time Impact was doing the gut check.

I'm like, what about the gut check? It'd be a good way to get on TV. It's like, no, I want to go to WWE. And WWE at that time really wasn't looking at a lot of indie guys. And I was just basically like,

cool man, like good luck, but like there's not a path for that. Right. And then fast forward, whatever it was four or five years later. And I'm like, like the hottest thing.

Damn, dude. That's incredible. Yeah. And again, it goes back to what you were saying. Like, it's right. time, it's right place. It's like everything lines up to make that happen. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we got lucky in so many ways once we got in the door. It just Regal helped a lot too, just keeping us in the game and opportunity. Because if you see the beginning of DIY, like we're tagging, we're not, we are, we're not, then we finally have the shirt

thing where we become DIY. But then that Brooklyn takeover match, that was the one with revival, that like really, even before that actually, we had a match with Alpha, and I remember for the Alpha one. So what would happen with us is we would get a text from one of the writers of like you're needed for this taping you know a couple days in full seal but it'd be a pretty last minute and i had this uk tour i was doing so i remember contacted writing but hey do you think i'm going to be needed for

this coming taping because maybe they just left us off one or something he was like oh man i wish i would know i'm not going to know so i was like okay i told john i was like listen i'm just going to buy myself a flight back and hope i can refund it if they don't use us or whatever figure it out So I'm like doing all this stuff in Scotland and progress in the UK. I get the text the day before the taping of like, yeah, we need you. And I'm like, all right, cool. I have a flight in three hours.

So like it was that close of like, of doing it. And I flew back for it, not knowing what we were going to do. And just thinking like, I hope this is worth the investment right now. And we got put with alpha and had a match that people like at that time loved. It was short.

It was 10 minutes. People loved it. Yeah. And it was like, what solidified them to go, hey, we have a thing with them. And thank God I did it. So I flew. I did that match.

I flew right back to finish my UK tour. But that match catapulted us to get the revival thing. And then we did take over Brooklyn. And all that happened before we were signed. Wow. Like before I even went to Pittsburgh and they found out about the shoulder and stuff. So like, I think that that helped us so much because we were in such good grace with them of like they were, we got plans for these kids. Yeah.

These kids are over. Yeah. So it was just like if any of those things just doesn't happen at the right time. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like calling it DIY made fans really relate to you guys because everybody can relate to the idea of doing it yourself. You know, not being handed opportunities, like having to go out and find them. Was that your idea?

No. No, I wish I could say it was. We pitched being like, so we pitched some weird stuff. We were like the Panda Express or something. We paid like we wanted whatever we pitched, we kept going back to it. We just want a panda to be our mascot. Because if you think too early DIY, we were just doing skits and glorious bombs. You know, like, we were to us, we're like, we're just going to.

The glorious bombs. Yeah, we're like, we're just going to be a funny tag team, you know. And it was Joe Belcastro as far as I know who came up with DIY and the hashtag DIY thing. But yeah, I mean, so easy to chant, got over super well. We're talking currently about like, because we don't know if it's going to become a thing. on main roster or not. I know people are hoping for it. We have like, you know, you always have your fantasy booking and your own plans.

But we're doing a lot right now with the whole concept of DIY of like how to, because with the main roster, you have quickly realized there's this whole other world of like marketing and presentation and just a lot of stuff that for a guy like me specifically who is they ring the bell wrestler, I'll do it in the ring, I'll do it on the promos. They want a whole different thing, you know, on main roster, which is, it's great. It's why the guys become global stars, but it's just not who I am naturally. So like both of us have been like, how do you make DIY like something that is globally attractive and like dream inspired, unify type of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're doing a lot right now on our end, hoping that if the time comes. Like we can present something to them that's like, okay, yeah, we can, we can run with these guys. Yeah. But who knows? Who did the first glorious bomb? Like, whose idea was that? It was a mix.

I would assume for sure Johnny started the conversation, uh, because he's always, always, I mean, he's a big social media guy. So he's always looking at all of it. Yeah. Whether it's Instagram, TikTok. So he's bringing things to me constantly of like. Like, here's, he's like the, here's the concept and I'm kind of the doer. Like, here's this concept that this comedian's doing. Yeah.

Oh, well, here's a way we can make this work. Got you. That's kind of how we work really well together. So I remember us being on some road loop and we, so the reason we love the music is because we all, all 32 of us for the Cruiserweight Classic thought glorious was the music for the Cruiserweight Classic. because we're there for the Cruiserweight classic and we're doing the rehearsal day and it keeps playing. So we're like,

this is the cool. We're like, this is awesome. We thought, because they did this thing for Cruiseracol, because all 32 of you got introduced and came to the ring and you did your thing. So we're like,

that's what we're coming out to. This is so cool. And then we found it. No, no, this is for Bobby Root. He's going to be a big star, not you idiots. So we always had a thing for the song.

And then we're on like a live event and he started coming up with like, I want to do something with it. But then from there just was a snowball of like, all right. So we have to like have one of us play it on the phone. One of us is what should Bobby do? I think the first video ever, we sneak up on him in the gym, I think. Because that was like there.

You know, it was just at the time. But then it just became like, how else can we sneak up on it? Because like once no one cared. But then once it became a thing, everybody had ideas and the social was in on it. Yeah. And when are you going to do another one? They're like, well, we can't do like them too. We only would see Bobby on live events.

He wasn't living in Florida. You know, so I only were live event. But that made it even better. But, I mean, some of the stuff was great. Like, I, though my favorite one, I just idea concept-wise was, Bobby, we're going to have to follow you to your hotel room tonight and make it look like we were sleeping in your bed. Like, he's such, such game. And he's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever you need. That's great.

But for him, it's like, that song, I remember, was like the number one wrestler song for, like, months. So for him, he's like, these kids are just making me money. This is great. And I'm sure you've heard the story. That was originally going to be Shinski's song. Oh, was it? Yeah. Oh, that's funny. That would not work for Shinska. And that's just the thing, right? Like, they gave it to Bobby Rood and

it works. But it's funny that, like, they had this great song and they're like, who do we give it to? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how often they're sitting on, like, gems. I'm sure it's all the time. Like, even like, say we were to be DIY again, I assume we would need new music.

And even that, we're like, who do we go to to be like, hey, I know you have some mustache, like a secret stash? Let me hear the secret stash. I'll give you Jim Johnson's contact. I have it. He was a genius. There's been more than a few wrestlers who have reached out to me and they're like, could you give me Jim's contact? I bet. I'd like some new music.

He did the Austin stuff too, right? And the Rocks have. Oh, yeah, Undertaker and all of them. Yeah, he's the greatest. But it's funny how many people kind of like, you know, behind the scenes have been like, hey, If you could connect me with Jim, I'd like some better entrance music. I'm like, yeah. That's so funny.

Both WW and AEW guys. Wow. So, yeah, I'll hook you off. Tell Jim to get on DIY. Yeah, we can make that happen. So many of your injuries, I feel like, came at the absolute worst of time. You know, there's never a good time to be injured. Exactly, yeah.

Which was the one that just hurt the most physically, but also, like, hurt, like, oh, my God, I'm doing this thing and now I'm not. So there's no injury that hurts more than like an ACL fresh out of surgery that like first four weeks or whatever it's just brutal doing the ACL

hurts but I don't I wouldn't know how to say this without like putting myself over I have a weird thing with pain where like I just kind of like I don't know like I thrive off a little bit Like, you know, it's a weird, it's weird.

And I don't, I don't want to. You are a pro wrestler, so it makes sense. Yeah, like, it's something about it that, like, makes me feel like a little more alive. You know, it's like, like, I remember hearing the ACOs, the pain is, whoa, like, turn white as a ghost, like, you're going to puke type of thing. But also having this, like, real, like, yeah, I'm just going to, I'm going to do this thing with the torn ACL. Like, you know, you have that, like, yeah. But the injury itself, those are their ones that get, yeah, those are bad. the neck one was like such a long duration of working with a bad neck so it wasn't like a one

instant like ACL it's like boom you tore out like the neck was like just this long process of like how much more can I get out of it how much more can I get out of it until finally they pulled it for me uh they made the call on that one that was the one that hurt the most for sure I mean they made that call three weeks before takeover New York uh I remember finding out about the neck we were doing Broga. It was some like at the performance center like we're bringing in these Broga guys. And I'm there and they I just did the MRI because I had a live event loop where I got a lot of stingers and we were reporting them for months. And then finally I landed and they were like, hey, you have to go get an MRI. I just remember saying to Johnny like, I don't want to get

this MRI. I know it's going to be a bad MRI. I don't want to get it. And I get it. We go to do Broga and they call me into the office like, hey, like you can't wrestle anymore. It was like bad. bad. And I was like, it was just the weirdest because you're just like, can I, should I go do yoga? Like, maybe just stay in like, like the resting position. Like, they didn't know. It was weird. Like, so now Maroon is talking about it.

Like, they just getting second opinions. The decision was to let me keep going if symptoms weren't bad. My biggest, like, I don't know if it's a regret. I had no control over it. Maybe I did. So here's the scenario. I'm like three matches away from. takeover in New York. I got to get through a couple more NXT tapings.

Yeah. And I'm like, I know I can get there. I think I have one more left. I'm like, this is great. I'm going to get there. At the same time, completely randomly, me, Rickache, Alistair, and Johnny get called up to the main roster. And I'm sitting there going, I have a broken neck that 100% needs surgery. The surgery date is literally already set early April. Maybe I shouldn't go. do extra stuff. So no one knows what's going on. It's confusing.

So I'm like, I must be the mouthpiece. We must be coming in as a group of like NXT invaders. And I must be the mouthpiece. This is fine. It'll be fine. We get there. We don't hear much. All of a sudden,

like I think Johnny and I have like a tag match with someone. I don't know if it's the bar or revival. And we're like in a feud. And we're like, what? What? And I wish I kept saying to myself, just don't do this. don't. I just tell them, tell them no. Like, go have a man-to-man eye-to-eye conversation with Vince

and explain to him passionately why you think this is a bad idea. And then the other part of me was like, I mean, this is just your job and they're the boss and they know what they want and just go do your job. So I went and did my job, you know, and then we were on Raw Smackdown, flew back, did the taping, raw Smackdown, flew back. It was just a bizarre, like, for me, like just sitting there going like, I know I need surgery. Why am I tripling my workload? I just got to get to this thing. And we're tagging and we're not, it was weird. So my regret of it is like, I just wish seeing how my conversation with Vince went when I finally met him, I was like, I'm pretty sure if I explained it, he would have just been like, I didn't know that. Yeah. Because, you know,

not everything's communicated. Yeah. I'm fairly certain he would have just gone. I wasn't aware. forget it. But I didn't. I didn't do it. I didn't initiate the conversation. You know, and I just, so that's the regret because I'm like,

if takeover New York happens, we have that moment, Johnny Went's the title. That feud ends the way it's supposed to. And because it didn't happen, the frigate feud has never ended. You know, it just never had.

It's just kind of kept having hiccups. Did that make your neck worse? So the call on it, I wouldn't say worse. I think what happened, and essentially why it got totally shut down is I went. It was after the last taping for NXT. So NXT is done.

I'm done with NXT as far as telling the story for me and Johnny. But I had a couple of stingers. And then I had to go get this shot that was supposed to help calm some stuff down. But they were like, hey, it might get worse before it gets better, whatever. And then I had to go to Raw or Smackdown, whatever came up next. And medical was like, hey, so every time I'd go, I have. to pass a physical before I'd wrestle. And you got to come in do your physical.

And I wasn't, none of my nerve reactions were, like, working at all. Like, like tap, whatever. And I just remember seeing them, their faces like, oh. And I was like, what is it going on? And so that's when I found out they were like, you're not medically clear to have any more. Matt. I was like, I just remember even that. I was like, wait, what if I just take two weeks off and then I go did this one, man?

But it was all taken out of our hands on that one. Man. So that was a hard one to stop. And I didn't know if I was coming back, right? Right. You know, so. And now you're back again from another injury. Yeah.

I wish it would stop. Well, maybe it has. How do you feel as we sit here right now? If I don't wrestle, I feel incredible. If I don't go to work, I'm fine. Dude, if I just had to live life at this point, I mean, I can train hard and nothing really affects my injuries except for wrestling. Well, that's a bit of an issue.

That is an issue. Yeah. So the lighter, the load sometimes, the better. But even that, I mean, it's just, it's a, you know, you're a bump away, you're a movement away at any time. So I don't know what it is. I mean, I've had a lot of surgeries. And, you know, you hear like, I always get really defensive when I see, like, a football

player go down and somebody, Sequin Barclay is injury prone. I'm like, shut your damn mouth. Shut your mouth. Like, he's in the arena. You're out there. Shut your mom. Seriously. God damn it.

You don't know what he's been through. It's like what, I don't know. I get it's just a label, but you're just like, yeah, I get injured a lot. Like, what do you want me to do? They're big injured. They're real big serious injuries. And it's honestly just bad luck. It just is what it is.

You know, like, I'll go through all these stages. I'm like, am I training the wrong way? Do I need to stretch more? Dude, I do ever. Nobody takes care of the body the way I do. Like, I have a sauna at home. I have a cold plunge at home. Hey, me too.

I got a weight room. Yeah, you have to sit. I do it all. I got every. I got everything. Dude, I want to live to be 120. I'm not even joking.

If you're in a good place, right? Physically, if you physically can, and that's like, for me, I'm like, especially,

you know, with the little one, but like, she's five, we're doing soccer. I'm coaching her and stuff. Like, I want badly to be able to get on the floor

and play and do all that stuff. So, yeah, it bothers me so much when the injuries happen just because I'm like, man, what else can I do? And then do you think about,

like, when it is finally my time to stop? up wrestling. What's my career then? Is it coaching my kids soccer? That's on a job? Yeah. I just hope it, I hope I get what I want out of this. Because I felt like there was a time in NXT where I felt very satisfied, I guess. I don't know if that's the exact right word, but I felt very accomplished with like what we did and created. When we were in NXT, see like there's this false awful narrative that has now since been created that drives me crazy

because people will look back at some of the nx t stuff and just be like yeah well they didn't want to go up or they didn't want to get called up or like they were scared of this or it's like no no we were creating like that group of guys like nxt blew up when it came from like uh sammy zane and claudio Cesaro to the Kevin stuff to Bailey and Sasha and then our group coming in like with Finn and Shin and then into like Johnny and I and undisputed like if you were in that room at that moment like you knew how special it was it'd be like going to ECW and saying like hey Tommy Dreamer and Sandman and Raven you guys all want to leave this place and go you know because WV that's where the big stars are you want to go do like Restor Maine or something like

yes, but I want to see if we can make this WrestleMania first. That's literally what it was. It was like, can we get 10,000 people? Can we get a million dollar gate? Can we do that multiple times? Can we get takeover to be equivalent to mania? Can we, can we do 20,000? Like our mindset was like, oh, we're going to get TV now.

How far can, like, it wasn't a like, it was a weird us against them. And it wasn't like a, we don't want to go there. Same company, same umbrella. We're not stupid. We know. We want to make this thing bigger than that. And you did? Nobody was putting on better matches.

It was awesome. Than NXT at that time. But there's that now, the narrative switched a little bit since then. It drives me nuts because it's just like, it was the hottest thing in wrestling for like five years. Absolutely. And this was before AEW was a thing. Nobody was putting on those style of matches. That's what it was unique.

It was its own. thing. So like I think for us it was always like how big can we make this. So like I felt very like we accomplished this thing. It felt that way. I felt like this is awesome. You know, and obviously things completely out of our control with the pandemic and then 2.0 change and stuff. Everything. It like it got completely disintegrated from what we had built to the point where I remember when I went up. There was even a conversation of like somebody in the higher office was like, oh, I thought you didn't want to you didn't want to go to the main restaurant. I was like, well, no, I wanted to build this thing that was really special,

but it's been disintegrated. So, like, that's naturally the next step for me, right? So, but now sitting here, I'm kind of like, okay, well, now I'm in the main roster. I don't feel as though I've given that audience the best representation of myself, snippets of it, but not consistent. Because there's a, there's a big portion of that audience

that's never watched your NXT matches. They've got no idea. What's always so good about your matches in NXT, especially with Johnny? you guys worked so stiff with each other. Like, there's some stuff on like the, there's some stuff on the apron where I'm like, oh. Yeah. You get that weird trust factor, right?

When you have, yeah, when you're, it's the truth to you hit your friends harder and you have more trust. You see it with Drew Seamus. You see it with like Gunther and I'll drag it off. Like, that's just a thing. Yeah. And Samizane. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I,

hope we get to we being me Johnny me myself him himself I hope that opportunity comes to give the presentation at some point because that's that's that's hard that's that all goes back to answer your question of how much long do you have like if I get to present all that and I get to do it for five or 10 more years I'm out I'm in like I really want to build a resume in a portfolio that people are like what okay he was a player because I think right now their memory would be like, yeah, he did it in an XT. I can do it. But it's not just, oh, he did NXT.

It's like he was one of the best in NXT, when NXT was the best. Yeah, but that has a, that coin has two sides, you know, like that, that, there's, MJF's going to go through it if you probably already started to anybody in AEDW who hits the pinnacle there. Yeah, but can he do it there? Yeah. It's always two sides of that coin. And that's the part, like all of this generation grew up watching the big leagues.

That's what your dream is, right? Messomania, Royal Rumble, SummerSlam, Spive series. I haven't had a pay-per-view match. I was in like a battle royal thing and, you know, I haven't had a match. So like you just, now that I'm in the world of it, I'm like, just a lot of light bulbs go off and you start to go, man, I would love to break this barrier. I don't know if it'll happen or not. You know, control what you control.

but do you think there's a point where they might say hey would you want to go back to nxte um performance wise i don't think so i think there's a door that's very open for guys like myself and johnny because of loyalty because of the way we handle ourselves outside of the ring professionalism and stuff that like there's a spot producing coaching something yeah um i'm just not done performing like physically i know my body sometimes it tells me like hey stop But really, mentally, I'm not anywhere close. So, like, that wouldn't, before I would do something like that, the option would be, well, no, it's the ring of honor option. It's the, I think I can do this thing that's really special.

I'm going to go do it somewhere. Like, please give me the opportunity to do it here. Yeah. But if not, I'm still going to go do it. What is the match with Johnny that you're most proud of? I'm specifically New Orleans, but so Chicago, I like for a different. different memory and match-wise maybe even i think the flow is cooler in which was the one that got five stars new orleans so that and and it's special too because i mean i'm coming off of a ACL two

shoulders everything's been been repaired um 10 months out of the ring uh and i remember them they kept go do a couple practice matches and i was like absolutely not like i'm like i'll go do it when it's time to do it when there's a crowd you know uh so this it's literally the first match i've had in 10 months. And it's for me, the thing cool about it is my whole career there, I'm a baby face underdog tag team guy.

And I'm like, that's what I'm the worst at. Like, I'm best at being a, like, serial killer hill. Yes, you are. And you're going to let me go do that on a big stage and you're giving me time and freedom. And like, I think in my head, I just, dude, I would be doing cardio that last month going into it.

Like, and I'd have tears well up. Because I just, I felt, I was like, I'm on the cusp of something here. They're about, like, it was like 15 years of this. Like somebody is right now going to say to me, here's the stage to do exactly what you do as well as you do it. Go, just go do it. And I knew, I was like, no one knows. Hunter doesn't know. Sean doesn't know.

Nobody has a clue what I'm going to go do. They have no idea. And I just, I, dude, like, I'm kind of in show, talking about. Because it was that. I was so emotional going into it of like, this is going to be, and that entrance happens with no music. And I just remember sitting there and I closed my eyes at one point.

I'm like, like, I just, I was trying not to well up. Like people were like, oh, he's taking in the moment. I was like,

yeah, it was, but I was also trying to like, don't break because you just knew, you know, and then the match went the way it did and everything. It was great. But it was like,

that was that moment for me that was like, okay, all the work went into this. That's kind of like, I'm kind of waiting not to have the same moment or recreate it, but I'm just, that's what I want so badly on the main roster is that like, like,

I always say like I would love to be in movies, but I'm not an actor in the sense that like, you can't just ask me. You can't just be like, oh yeah, play this role because I suck. But if you specifically, like,

hey, we got this like bad guy like psychotic or stoic or there's a lot of like, there's a whole list of bad guy traits there. You know, henchmen or whatever. If you said we have this, I'm like, oh, I'd kill that role. Like, I could do that. So, like, I feel that way with wrestling. Like, I don't think I'm the best versatile wrestler to put in any situation.

I can get by. But if you really wanted me to shine, like, if you give me that one thing that I'm the best at doing, like, and that's like, I keep thinking, like, how do I get to that? Yeah. How do I fast track that here? You're such a nice guy in real life, but you play such a menacing heel. Yeah. What do you think it is? I've just been attracted to it my whole life.

You know, so I've obviously in a wrestling fan. Okay. But I don't really take the inspirations from that because like, so I love, I obviously, I said I love Brett and stuff and Hogan. Those were good guys. But like I love Piper, I've always loved the villain. But in movies too, like Rocky is my favorite movie, but I love Draggo, right? I love tea.

I loved even how Tommy played his part. Like I loved, I've always loved villains. I've always loved, and I also, like, psychology-wise, but wrestling, like, I'm very good with psychology and story. Yeah, you're a great storyteller. Crossing T's dot and eyes, I don't miss anything. But as the villain, you really can control that story and you can make your baby face. Like, something about, like, I love making baby. Like, I think it misses in wrestling a lot right now.

even if you watch the current product, heels do a cool thing to stop the baby's cool thing. They don't do the cheap thing to, you can do the cool thing, do the cheap thing first. Like the cheap thing has to give you the advantage. That's the heat. Like I'm just,

like I have a nap for like being a heel. And thinking like a heel, I always have. Like it's funny, I of R and I, because we came up together, he was always a really good baby. I was always a really good heel.

And we always just, joke that our whole career has we've been miscasted because he's always playing a heel and I'm always playing a baby face we're currently on the main roster he's a Viking ranger bad guy I'm a lost in the shuffle good guy you know and it's just like if you just flip us because we've only I've only been a heel in WB for like nine months and like that's what everybody talks about of course I mean I think that it's I think the best heal in NXT ever I appreciate I mean, it's true. But it's just, that's the thing, though.

It's such a small sample size. Yeah. You know. Well, then, I mean, we all know it's there. I would love, yeah. What would it take to get it back? It's opportunity. Turn on Johnny.

It's tough. We've got to get Johnny back to. That's true. As soon as Johnny comes back. Yeah, Johnny back there. Turn on Johnny. I think there's mileage to. Everybody loves Johnny.

There's mileage to DIY up there. There's mileage to. But then you turn on Johnny. At the end of it all, naturally. Yes. There's other pitches I've self-created to that I think, you know, if they don't go the DIY route that I think could get there. It's just getting somebody to listen and jump on board. It feels like all signs are pointing towards DIY is going to be a thing at some point here. I wish I knew, like genuinely completely not worried about anyone listening to this. I wish I knew for certain the answer to that. I think I'd like, I wish I knew for certain the answer to that. The amount of times it's been a green light, red light, greenlight, red light.

This is the thing now that maybe this date. We've done everything to prep, like gear, new slogans. Like, anything you could think of to prep. I started doing some social stuff at one point where I was like, oh, it's greenlight, we know. And you just keep getting the roadblocks thrown in your way, hiccups. I have no idea at this point. Like I'm kind of like, because if it happens,

I think it's cool. It's great because, yeah, I'm still a baby face underdog, whatever, well, we have a good chemistry. We can play off each other.

And then there's a whole fresh slate of opponents. There's some cool stuff we can do. If it wasn't going to happen, you just kind of want to be like, okay, well, let's get into something.

Like, let's get something going here. Ideally, that turns me to a bad guy. just because that's my cup of tea. But regardless, something, just something to grab onto to show people. Like, this is the, that's the NXT guy that people like.

That's why there was hype or whatever. You just want to be able to be like, yeah, this is what. There's some real natural matches that feel like they make sense when DIY gets back together, if they get back together. Yeah. I mean, you guys versus the Uso's. Yeah. I mean, well, they got to become friends again.

Well, that's true. You guys versus. Sammy and Kevin. Sammy Kevin. That was the one that I saw the most of. For sure. New Day would be great. I mean, great.

Viking Rangers. But that's the thing that there's so much talent on that roster right now. And there's so many guys that if they were just given the platform, you know, somebody just has to decide when they'd be like, like, I'll take Ivar for an example. Like he just had that match with Kofi. That was really good. That was a single match. He's got so many tricks.

He's got so much stuff that people have in the scene. And he's one of those guys. I remember in Ring of Honor when Roe got hurt. He got a real run at singles. He had AJ and J. Lethal and stuff. And people were like, he got over big time. And he's one of those guys that you can look at this long roster and you can be like, oh, you know, I think they're on the cut and block or.

And then someone else could look at it and go, hey, what if we just give him like two to three segs for like five weeks in a row and great opponents? Yeah. Oh, wait. Why is he so over now? Why is he such? Like, and there's, it's like just everyone's that. You know what I mean?

It's like ricochet. Like, everyone knows how good he is. But imagine him just getting time weekly to just show out and have matches and stories. And so it's just a lot of times like Cedric Alexander's one man. Like, we'll have matches randomly on main events sometimes. And I'm like, my Lord, if we can just do 15 or 20 someday on a show or pay-per-view or something. Like, it's not even something that maybe fans currently would think of like, oh, I want that. but then they get it and then they start to go, oh, I had no idea.

And then you give it to them two, three, you have to consecutively give it to them over and over, you know, because that's the way it feels. Like they're not watching every single week, every single second. That's so much to consume. Yeah. But yeah, the roster's full with that way. And you're just hoping.

You just like, I hope I get my number called. Like, I don't control that. I hope it happens. I feel like it's just a matter of time. You would think you would hope, yeah. I mean, you wouldn't be on TV if that wasn't the case. Yeah. I mean, there's quite a few guys.

Like, it's, it's a long process, though, right? I mean, sure. I've always been on TV for four or five years. You know, Gable, another one. Gable's starting to get something. He is. Yeah, I mean, that's years, you know what I mean? You with, with Gunther feels like there was, you know.

That has potential. Yeah. That's one of those things that. It's going to be great. And you, you give that time. You give that presentation. Yeah. Like, those are the things you don't control.

Like, you control the work you've been like, I can practice my, promos, I can write stuff. I'm always writing stuff. I can hit the gym. I can do all that. You control all that. And you should do it. Like, you shouldn't be awarded for, oh, yeah, but he works hard. Yeah, but he, he's on time and he's not a jerk. Or like, you should, you should do all that. But then there's that, like, the presentation, you know, control. Like, I took Willow for the first time to TV, like Tampa was, I don't, a month or two ago. Never really watches wrestling at home and stuff. And afterwards, she just kept telling me how much she loves Cody Rose. And when I asked her

why, she's like, oh, he's got the flag on his neck and he's got the fireworks. Like, it's that people don't care. And he dresses like a Disney prince. They don't care about the wrestling. You know, like it's like the hardcores do, but like that global audience, like, it's the presentation. Like, he's got fireworks. Set's got that song. They all sing to. Like it. So You have, there's some stuff that you have to be like, okay, well, I just got to buy my time or wait for something to click or hope that, you know, something's presented or whatever it be. Yeah. You just hope. I think it's just a matter of time.

Speaking of being on time, I need to get you out of here. So you're not late. This has been great. We've talked for an hour and 10 minutes. Edwin. This has flown by. Yeah, flew by. I end every interview with the same question because gratitude, such a big part of my life.

I speak out loud, three things I'm grateful for when I wake up. I do before I go to bed. What are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? I like that. We before bed with Willow always do. Tell me your favorite part of the day. I love that. That's the age she's at right now.

Gratitude, I think, would be a little above her head. That is gratitude. Yeah. Just an easier way to say it, right? Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. Sometimes you get great answers out of that, too, so I highly recommend it. Yeah, I'm going to borrow that.

I mean, at this point, there's nothing that is above. of my wife and Willow. And it's been that way. I mean, you know the second they're born. It's like, whoo, game changer. It's funny how your focus shifts. Like, it's no longer about me at all. Yeah.

And then also in a funny way, ironically, it is about you because now you have another human to provide for it and keep alive. And you're so fresh in it. And this is not coming from like, like, I've mastered. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just trying. but dude the phases like I'll always like I wear this bracelet off all the time and stuff it's uh this two shall pass and I started doing it for wrestling it relates even more to having

a child but like good or bad this two shall pass you know so like if it's good enjoy it and if it's bad just like wade it out you know but like with her and like they're growing like there's no phase that I I can say like oh I didn't like that or I hated that Like there's no phase, like, lived in the moment of every phase because it's just like, it just goes and it doesn't return once it goes. You know, like, when she was little, it was like, I'm sick. I want Mickey's Clubhouse. I didn't think anymore.

Like, dude, and I'll never once when she wanted Mickey's Clubhouse would I be like, no, because I remember thinking during that time, like, because I ain't going to last forever. That's not like, it's not Mickey's Club. You know, but there's, and it's just, it's a constant. It just never stops. you know, there's new phases. There's something that lost my first tooth, like going to school, like on a soccer team, coaching the soccer team. Like, there's just things that are just constant where you're like puts everything in perspective. Like I go to TV and I don't control the stuff

I don't control and some of the stuff can wear away at you. And then by Tuesday I'm home picking her up from school. I'm just like shut it off, you know. So they're the number one thing always for grateful. My health for sure. And all the injuries aside to like those are all just physical injuries that heal, you know, like I'm, I'm so lucky that like people go through cancer and go through like these crazy like life changing things. So I'm super grateful for that. Yeah. And the third one I think is just that like this is this journey is allowed all this for me, you know, because I remember, like, I checked the bank account before putting gas in the car, like, or like, can I afford this?

I remember that distinctly. We would turn the oven on because we couldn't put heat on the house. Like, you know, so, like, it, the life we've provided through wrestling is constantly blows my mind. Yeah. Constantly. And the fact that it's continuing and just keeps getting better. So, yeah, it's just, I'm. so grateful that the platform

has allowed that for me because I'm just doing what I love to do. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just doing the thing. It's never work. Like, even when it's frustrating politics, stuff that I don't enjoy doing, it's never work.

Yeah. Because at the end of day, you're like, yeah, just go do that thing. That once you're good at it, it's easy to do. Yeah. I'm just going to go do this thing

I enjoy doing with my friends. Yeah. And travel and stuff. So the fact that I get to do that, and that's the job. And it provides, it doesn't even make sense to me often.

I'm like, how? How did this happen? Like, we just had our 10-year wedding anniversary. Wow, congratulations. Thank you. And when you look at our, where we work, it's just like, who, like, you're not doing your reality TV shows anymore, your full-time momming. I'm not doing the gym thing with the clients, what the Indies and the hustle.

Like, it's just like, you're like, what? How do we get here? Yeah. Yeah. Congrats on everything. I appreciate it. And, dude, thank you for this time. Yeah, this was a great, man.

I'm a big fan of yours. And I remember we bumped into each other a couple months ago. I told you that your message is good. Like there was this long lull of just negativity and stuff. And not always with interviews, just in general, you know. Yeah. And you do such a good job with bringing positivity and good message and giving people a platform to show a good side of themselves and stuff. Thanks, man.

There still is way too much negativity in pro wrestling. And look, good and bad's available in every situation. I would just much rather focus on the good stuff. And I don't just mean wrestling. I just mean life in general. And I hope that through these conversations, people will start to do that a little bit more in their own lives. Yeah, I agree with you.

Yeah. I mean, it's social media could be a very negative platform, but it could be very positive. You know, it's how you treat it and how you surround yourself. It's anything. It's anything in life, wrestling outside things. Yeah. So good on you, though, for spreading the good.

Thanks, man. I appreciate this. Thank you so much, man. Yeah, dude. Good to see you, too. You as well. Ah, isn't he great? Like, he's the opposite of the menacing heel that he plays on TV.

And the stuff he does on Raw, I feel like it's so good. Like, he brings that NXT style, that very, like, rough style. I don't know how to describe it, but he brings that to Raw, especially, like, he was saying, like how you're, like, a little extra aggressive with. your good friends. That's why the matches he's had with Johnny have been like that much more stiff and brutal. And I feel like that's, that's just around the corner. Some more of that stuff, just around the corner. I hope you enjoyed this. And I hope you enjoyed this enough to share it out with somebody you know who would love this. Please snap a screenshot and tag us on social media

so we can share it out. He's at Champa, WWE. I'm at Chris Van Vleet. And here's something I shared out on Twitter just the other day. And a lot of people seem to love this. The quick, way to succeed is to start now and figure it out as you go. You can't learn to drive in a parked car. Be great. Be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more insight with C.J. Perry. Like how I throw these in at the end? Like, ooh, who's it going to be? C.J. Perry. We'll see you then. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do. Rapid Fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today.

No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Take advantage of it. Get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What should be?

Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.