Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Vince Russo On Jim Cornette, Pole Matches and Why He Hates Wrestling Now

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Vince Russo (@THEVinceRusso) is a professional wrestling writer, booker and bestselling author. He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about why he hates watching wrestling now, some of the biggest misconceptions people have about him, the storyline he was most proud of booking during the WWF Attitude Era, why he would book David Arquette to win the WCW Heavyweight Championship again, why he decided to make himself the WCW Champion, how the booking in TNA differed from WWE and WCW, his thought on wrestling ratings and much more!  To get 15% off go to http://mudwtr.com/cvv to support the show and use the code CVV15 Quote I'm thinking about: "Every strike brings me closer to the next homerun." - Babe Ruth For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are gathered. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blit! Hello, my friends. Welcome back to another one here on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris VanV. Not sure why I yelled at here on Insight. Welcome to a lot of new listeners as well. I hope you've been enjoying these conversations as much as I've been enjoying having them.

And I hope that you take a little bit more of the human side away from some of these larger-than-life figures that we've certainly recently been. having on the show like L.A. Knight, or yeah, or like The Undertaker or Dave Meltzer, and certainly like an episode today with Vince Rousseau. I mean, a lot of people think a lot of things about Vince Russo. Some good, some not so good. I will say I've never had anything but lovely interactions with him. He's great. And I would just hope that you go into this episode with an open mind. And if you don't, that's okay. I'm not going to tell you what to do. but if you don't, maybe Vince could change your mind through some of this. We talk about all of the big things.

We talk about Jim Cornett. We talk about Paul matches. Talk about David Arquette winning the championship. We talk about Vince Russo winning the championship. We talk about TNA. There's a whole bunch. We talk about bro. We talk about who says bro the most.

There's so much stuff in here. Please, I hope that you share this with somebody that you know would love it and take a screenshot and tag us so we can share it out as well. He is at the Vince Russo. I'm at Chris Van Fleet, and if you're not already subscribed to this show, please take a second to subscribe or follow wherever you're listening. And even though we don't read out reviews on every single episode, because it just seemed like it was taking a lot of time in the intro, they still help so much. So please, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, a review goes such a long way. And on Spotify, just a quick little rain and just click those stars, it would mean so much to me.

So please, without further ado, enjoy this conversation with Vince Rousseau. There he is. Vince, thank you so much for coming back on. No, Chris, I appreciate you having me because listen, man, I follow you. I see you do a lot of great interviews. You interview a lot of people in the current business. And you know, you know me, man. I'm the bad guy. I'm the old man yelling at the clouds.

I'm the bitter guy. And for a professional like you to bring me back on, I really appreciate it. It does mean a lot to me, man. Well, look, I think that with the last conversation that we had and hopefully this episode as well, that people go, you know what? Russo's not actually that bad. Bro, listen, I speak to truth. And Chris, I'll be honest with you.

Speaking the truth really did not weigh well for me when I was in the wrestling business. Bro, it's, you know, in the wrestling business, the business, the bottom line is, you know, bro, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's carny and you've got a lot of backstabbers and, and, and liars and politicians. And when, when you're a guy from New York and you come in and you just start laying down the truth, I mean, that doesn't work. You know, it's so clicheish, bro, but the adage of people don't want to hear the truth and they can't handle the truth, that is so spot on when it comes to me. So you mentioned you being a New York guy. This is actually where I want to start because you famously wore the San Francisco Giants jersey. So if you're a New York

guy, why are you a Giants fan? Yeah, bro. My father was a diehard New York Giants fan from the Polo grounds when they moved to the West Coast in 1959. He did not change stripes. So I grew up a Giants fan. And yeah, bro, I've been one for a long, long time. I can remember, Chris, going back to when I was about 10 years old. Bro, people don't understand. I swear, I don't think people have a clue. The only way, first of all, the San Francisco joins, the only teams you got on TV were the local teams.

So in New York, it was the Yankees and the Mets. That's all you were getting. You were never getting an out-of-town game unless it was a Saturday game of the week. There was no internet. So literally, bro, there was a radio station in New York, still there, bro. Y&S wins 1010. And at the quarter to every hour and the quarter after every hour, they would give you the scores.

That would be the only way you can get the scores. And a lot of times back then, bro, you know, the Giants were on the West Coast. So their game started late. I was fast asleep when their game started. But every morning, bro, before my dad would go to work, he would leave me the score on my night table with like a very little. highlight and I could never wake. I could never wait, bro, to wake up in the morning and just roll over and get that score.

And bro, like, even going back to when I was 10 years old, that score would dictate my whole day, man. I feel like you talking about this is like more passion than anything I've ever heard you talk about. Absolutely. Absolutely, bro. The Giants have been a passion for me for a very, very long time. Yeah. Vince, what do you think is the main thing that people get?

wrong about you because I put a tweet out just before we started this interview that I was going to be talking to you. And there was a lot of mean stuff that came. Bro, I think first and for, listen, let me be honest, Chris, first and foremost, in general, people don't like New Yorkers. I mean, it's that simple. They don't like New Yorkers. They think New Yorkers are brash and they think New Yorkers are arrogant and have a chip on their shoulder. when that is the complete opposite. First of all, New Yorkers are 100% truthful. We don't beat around the bush.

You know how we feel. We're face-to-face kind of people. Second of all, man, when you live in New York, you understand it's a dog-eat-dog world. It really is every man for himself. So that's the way you are raised. And again, bro, look at the people in the wrestling business from my backyard. We're talking about, you know, Bubba, We're talking about Taz.

We're talking about Tommy Dreamer. That's how we are, bro. That's how New Yorkers are. So like I said, number one, people don't like New Yorkers. Number two, bro, even though it was 23 years ago, 24 years ago, they think I'm the guy on TV. And basically, Chris, my attitude was this when I played an on-air character in 99. My attitude was this. You want to hate New Yorkers?

You want to think New Yorkers are a source. certain way, no problem. I am going to magnify that by a million. And that's exactly what I did. I went out there and I was the New Yorker that everybody really thought New Yorkers were. And, and bro, it just blows my mind 24 years later that people think I'm that guy. Bro, if people knew the Vince, the real Vince Russo, like, you just have no clue. Chris, the other day, bro, I'm down here. I'm a big, you know, Chris, like I don't sleep well. And a lot of times when I'm watching TV, I just get my little gimmick here and I just say YouTube. And it brings me to my YouTube feed.

So whatever's on there. Right. Bro, I was on YouTube the other night and it was, I ran into people surprising other people with puppies as a gift. bro, I'm crying my eyes out at freaking two-clock. Bro, I've got an English bulldog who's my pride in joy, Penelope. I'm crying my eyes out over people responding to getting a dog that they wanted for them. Bro, that's who I am. Like that, I'm passionate about the Giants.

I'm a passionate fantasy baseball player. Bro, I love getting all my work done early because as soon as my work is done, I hop in my 2000 Jeep. I live in Colorado and I point it to the mountains. Bro, that's the guy I am. And Chris, here's the bottom line. I wouldn't talk about wrestling at all if people didn't ask me. Chris, I am not a wrestling fan.

I do not like today's wrestling at all. I only watch Raw, bro, because Sports Kita pays me very well to watch Raw. I don't watch anything else. I don't care about it. I am not a fan about it. But if you ask me a question, I'm going to give you a true answer. That's my extent of being in the wrestling business in 2023. What's so interesting is if someone were to play professional baseball or hockey or basketball or football or whatever it is, they would be a fan for life.

they would always be watching. Yes. This happens in wrestling so frequently. What is it? Is it that you've seen how the sausage is made and now you don't like sausage anymore? No, not, no, Chris, because I'm as avid a baseball fan as I was when I was a 10-year-old kid. Bro, I still support Kiss. I bought my Kiss album, my first Kiss album in 1977.

They've done a lot of things over the years that I didn't like, but I still support them. I am a very, very loyal guy. Bro, the things I love, I got tattooed on my body. I got Ralph Cramden. I got Rocky. I got Tenacious D. Like, that's how loyal I am. Bro, wrestling is not the same.

Yeah, why don't you like wrestling anymore? It's not the same. It's that simple. It's not wrestling. Like, bro, baseball, obviously this year, Chris, they made some adjustments because they wanted to popularize baseball and three, and a half hour games were killing the sport. So they changed some things, but they didn't change the basic fundamentals of the game.

In wrestling, they changed the fundamentals of the game. It's not the same. And a lot of people from my era are not interested in this representation, in this presentation of wrestling today. And I'm one of those people. So what's the biggest fundamental change now versus 20, 25 years ago? It's all about the fake match and has nothing to do with the characters and the story. I mean, that that's it, bro.

You know, back in the day, going all the way back to Bruno, man, it was all about characters and story. That's what draws the casual fan. Wrestling matches, bro, don't draw a casual fan. Bro, that's why I did Crash TV. five to eight minutes the matches are over boom boom what's next boom boom bro you turn it on today the main event at raw you know starts at 1030 bro if i'm not a wrestling fan in ring action i'm not watching it because bro the reality of the situation is whether we want to believe it or not

fans of the in ring action bro that's a very niche audience that is a very very very in-inch audience. That's why I knew when I started writing at WWE, bro, I had to open that up because if you didn't like wrestling, you weren't watching the show. So how was I going to get people to watch the show? Real simple, bro, create characters that they fell in love with and they were emotionally tied to. And then give those characters story because now, Now you got them hooked. Now they got a tune in every week. Bro, all that is gone.

It is non-existent. And my thing is, Chris, I don't think I would have such a problem if they just change the name. Don't call it wrestling. Call it performance art or call it something else. Or calling it sports entertainment in WWA. Yeah, but it's not. What's the entertainment value? The bloodline has been a fantastic storyline.

Come on, Vince. Bro, I don't watch Smackdown. And I will say this, Chris, but I will say this. I'm sorry, I think Roman Raines is great. I think the USOs, you know, I think everybody's great. But Chris, I also think the bar has been so freaking lowered that when you do have a storyline and it's the only one they have, it's the greatest thing you've ever seen. I, bro, listen, I know I'm in the minority.

Like I said, man, I'm a big fan of Roman Raines like the USOs. Bro, I'm sorry. The bloodline, I've seen, I've seen this play out a billion times before. You know, Sopranos, Godfather. I mean, you name it. So, listen, I know on the minority and that's fine, but I just, I refuse to lower the bar, man. Do you watch any AEW? Nothing.

Are you even aware of what's going on there? Oh, yeah, no, I got to keep abreast of what's going on. I guess with Twitter, it's hard to not be aware of what's going on. Chris, I got to be honest with you, man. I go to the headlines just to keep in, you know, keep up with what's going on. And also because they're so comical. The things these wrestling sites report on, it is so entertaining to me. But no, bro, I basically said, I'm 60.

Just wait until the headlines come out from this interview. Oh, my God. Chris, I'm 62, and I basically said it's, I watched AEW the first year and a half. Okay. And it was a massive, massive waste of my time. And I basically said, when I turn 60, I'm not watching this anymore. This is a total waste of my time. At 60 years old, I'm closer to the end in the beginning. My time is very valuable. And this is just not worthy of my time. So a lot of people like to point at the things that you did wrong during the Monday Night Wars. Point out some of the things that you did right, that you're really proud of from that era.

The ratings. I mean, bro, bro, listen, you can, listen, Chris, I got paid. This is what I got paid to do. Get as many people to watch the show as possible. By any means necessary. Vince, we have two hours on Monday night. you can do whatever you need to do to get people to watch this show. That's it.

That's what I did. So at the end of the day, like honestly, Chris, you know, whether you liked it or you didn't like it, that's your opinion. The only thing that matters is the number. During that period in time, how many people were watching the show. Whether you liked it or not, that's. all that matters. And bro, I'll tell you right now, and we can, we can go through it's a different time and we're streaming and people are watching wrestling on their phones. We can go through

the whole gamut, bro, whatever you want to do. People forget back then there were VCRs. People were recording the show. They were just doing it in a very, very different way. At the end of the day, bro, during my run with Ed Ferrara at, you know, WWE attitude, there. Bro, you're never going to see higher ratings than that in the history of wrestling. Never, ever, ever. So at the end of the day, when I am long dead, those numbers are going to be there. And you know what? That tells me one thing. Vince, you did your job. Is there a certain match or storyline that you are especially proud of? My favorite storyline. And again, bro, you know, you're never really going to see stuff like

this again, but it was Rock joining the corporation. Because, bro, we laid that out for months and months and months with little hints and little nuances and nobody, nobody saw it. And I knew it worked because being in the building that night, when Rock turned, I swear to you, bro, you could hear a pin drop. It was like it wasn't registering with people what just happened. And then when the light bulb went off, oh, why didn't we see that coming? That was the, bro, even, you know, listen, I was a, I was a fan long before I started writing.

But even, even back then, to me, that was the most well-crafted storyline I think I've ever seen in wrestling. I remember being in high school and the rock winning with the screw job, like winning the championship via screw job. I was like, I'm so angry about that. I love the rock, but come on, man. Right. Now, bro, me and me and Ed looked at every little nuance, every little week of building up to that. And it was, to me, it was just great storytelling.

Is there something from WCW that you are especially proud of? Um, oh, bro, the WCW was a whole other, uh, chapter in my life. You know what, bro? I'll tell you what I'm proud of in WCW surviving, surviving, bro, because that it was such a political battlefield and was really, really affecting me mentally, physically, emotionally. And the fact that I survived that and was able to get through those two years, that's probably my biggest accomplishment there.

Have you heard the conspiracy theory that Vince McMahon sent you to WCW to kill the ratings and kill WCW? Again, here's the insanity, Chris. Here's the insanity. Anybody and obviously I would not be saying this if I were not telling the truth. Anybody can look at WCW ratings and they can look at the first three months before Vince Russo got there. Then they can look at the first three months when Ed Ferrar and myself, we started tearing down the building.

and building a new foundation. When you look at those first three months, bro, the ratings are going up. The ratings were working. Our plan was going according to exactly what Ed and I discussed. We got to erase everything they're doing. We've got to build new people.

We've got to build new stories. It was working perfectly. Then, of course, bro, politics played its ugly head. I went home. You know, they brought in different people. In the three months that we had built, after three months, bro, they had brought it right back down to where it was before we got there. Thus, they called me back. Vince, we need you to get back here.

Chris, honest to God, at that point when I went back, bro, I knew we lost the audience. I knew, bro, there's no way. There's no way we're going to get the audience back. We had them. We were building for three months. Then they went backwards, three months to the same crap they were doing. It's done. It's over.

Obviously, I had to go back because I was contractually obligated. But I knew at that point, bro, we're not going to get these people back again. What's the like match or storyline that like WCW fans, you think are most upset about now. Like I think, Oh, bro, David Arquette, did they, they're such full. Do you get more heat for David Arquette

winning the championship or for you winning the championship? I think I get more heat by saying I would absolutely, positively, unquivocally do both of those things all over again. I think that's, there are no regrets whatsoever. Obviously, if you don't understand why those things were done. You're a, you're a mark. You believe wrestling is real. You have no idea what goes into writing a show. And I could literally care less with what your opinion is.

Bro, it blows my mind, Chris. Chris, I was I was WCW champion because Goldberg almost killed me by driving me through a cage. Chris, I was champion for 24 hours. On the next show, I relinquished the belt saying, I got nothing else to prove. Yeah, people forget that. People forget that. The next show, bro, I won the belt on Nitro. I relinquished it on Thunder. And I, I, that was less, that's not 24 hours.

That's Monday to Thursday that, right? Well, but, but actually it was taped. So we actually taped thunder the next day, and that's when I relinquished. Okay, but still, I mean, you were the champion for. Exactly. One day, Tuesday, Wednesday, four days. Exactly. But one thing, Chris, I do want to say this.

I don't want to forget this. My biggest crowning achievement in all my wrestling career actually took place at WCW, and it had nothing to do with an angle. It had nothing to do with a story. Bro, my proudest moment in wrestling period was being able or being in a position where I was, I had the ability to put the belt on Booker T. to me that was my proudest moment because bro they had their thumb on this guy for so long and booker you know was a yes sir no sir type of guy did whatever you told him to do was not

going to rock the boat was very respectful and the the politicians you know that i'm talking about bro were just keeping him down and i was lucky that when i came there and I was head of creative. I was able to do something about that, knowing, you know, people at a certain level were not going to be happy. I was going to get heat over it. But at the end of the day, bro, it was the 100% right thing to do. And that's my proudest moment.

What do you think it is that you saw in Booker that other people may not have seen in him? They saw it. They saw it, bro. Booker wasn't a politician. But Booker was not one of those guys that was playing the game. It's that simple. Because if you were watching this guy perform night in, night out, and you didn't see it, then you shouldn't be in the wrestling business.

I mean, it was obvious to everybody. And Chris, what happened was I had went into a meeting. We had a little, you know, little creative group. It was maybe five or six guys in there. You know, I was in there. Ed was in there. Disco was in there. you know, Jeremy Borash, I think Terry Taylor.

And my first question was, if you could put the title on anybody right now, who would it be? Every single person in that room said Booker T. Every single one of them, bro, it was unanimous. And when I got that back, I was just like, then why aren't we doing that? What are we afraid of? So I'm so glad I got to do that and Booker was the guy. This episode is brought to you by mud water. I drink mud, and I love it.

This has actually been part of my morning routine for the last few months now, and I just love the way that this makes me feel. If you haven't heard of mud water, you've got to check this out. It's a coffee alternative with four adaptogenic mushrooms, and it has just a fraction of the caffeine of a cup of coffee, but you get all the energy without the jitters or without the crash of coffee. So what's in here? You got Lions Main to support folks.

focus, cordyceps to help support physical performance. You got chai in there for some flavor and some mood, cinnamon for antioxidants, and I can't imagine starting my day without it. I know it's called mudwater, but it tastes so good and it makes you feel great. To get 15% off, go to mudwater.com slash CVV. That's MUDWTR.com slash CVV. You can support the show by doing that, and also by using the code, CVV, you'll get 15% off. That's mudwater.com slash CVV. I think one of the things that really angers people, even to this day, is Mike Awesome in WCW. Like, Vince, what happened here?

The fat lady thrill of everyone. He was a monster in ECW. Yeah, yeah, that's the problem. He was a monster in ECW. then he came to WCW and there were monsters bigger than him. Bro, here's my heat with the internet crowd. Okay, guys, I hate to break. Chris, somewhere along the line, including Meltzer, somewhere along the line,

I swear to you, they've convinced themselves that wrestling is real. They really have, guys, this is a television show. Wrestling on TV is a television show. And my heat comes from, Chris. I'm an entertainment guy. I'm not a fake wrestling match guy. I am an entertainment guy. And where did I get that from, bro?

I got that from Vince McMahon Sr. I grew up watching what Vince McMahon Sr. was putting on television. That's what I grew up on. So the marks, bro, the Dirty Riders, the neck beards, whatever you want to call them. Okay, bro, they don't want any. form of entertainment involved in their wrestling. They want 20-minute matches. We're going to give

these fake matches stars. And when you go the entertainment route, that is the reason they hate Vince. But how do you look at a guy like Mike Awesome and go, you know what he should be, that 70s guy? You know, bro, that's a good question because something had to trigger that. I can't remember what it was. Maybe it was the way he dressed as a shoot. I don't know, bro. I can't remember exactly, but a lot of times or all of the time, when I come up with a character, it's, I get it from, you know, even if it's just a, a smidgen of who they really are. I'm looking for a characteristic that separates them from everybody else. Bro, if Mike Awesome would have came into WCW as just another a wrestler, then he would have been just another wrestler.

And, you know, I don't write that way, bro. To me, everybody's got to have a character. Everybody's got to be lodging in life and everybody's got to mean something. Well, I mean, to be fair, it's not just another wrestler. He's a former ECW champion coming into WCW at that point. Bro, I wasn't watching ECW. I'm just being honest with you. I knew who the players were, but I was not watching ECW on a weekly basis.

I appreciate your honesty with all of this. I love it. It's just like, yeah. It's the truth. I mean, that's why I laugh, bro. Like, you know, I still get accused of lying. And I'm like, bro, I'm 62 years old. I'm a grandfather.

You think I'm going to lie over wrestling? Like, the idea of lying over wrestling, it just, it blows my mind, bro. I feel like Jim Cornett has made you a character, especially in recent years. he talks about you and look, nobody dislikes you more than him. First of all, bro, let's let's let's be honest here. Okay, I don't have one ounce of ill will towards Jim Cornett. Okay, bro, I know why Jim Cornett dislikes me. I mean, really it's twofold.

Bro, I told you early on about how people feel about New Yorkers. Jim Cornett hates New Yorkers, hates, hates New Yorkers, hates New Yorkers, hates the entire East Coast. Okay, so there's that. So there's that. I'm working with a, you know, a guy from the South now who absolutely hates New York. Here I come with this thick, heavy accent. I am who I am.

So that's number one. Bro, number two, at the end of the day, at WWE and TNA, I was chosen over Jim Cornett twice. Okay, now, bro, if their shoe was on the other foot and Jim Cornett, was was chosen over me, I'm going to look in the mirror and I'm going to ask myself, why, Vince? Like, why did they go with Cornett and not you? I would have looked at myself. But in Jim Cornett's mind, that was my fault.

Whatever it is I did to get Vince McMahon and Dixie Carter to choose me over him was underhanded, was, you know, whatever, because it couldn't have been Jim's flaws, that he was very set in his ways and very difficult to work with. It couldn't have been that. It had to be something Vince Rousseau did. So that's where all this stems from. And then, of course, bro, he's turned it into folklore. You know, like where, bro, do you know, I actually, you know, Jim's big on, you know, the old time is in the cauliflower alley club and all that, right? bro i even said bro let's go on online pay pay per view online let's have a one-on-one debate let's charge x amount of dollars every single penny goes to the cauliflower alley club i have no problem confronting you face to face i don't want a penny from this and you've got some old time old-time wrestlers really down on their luck that could probably use a few dollars he outright refused.

Why did he refuse, bro? Because it will kill his gimmick. That's why he refused. To me, whether it kills your gimmick or not, if you love wrestling so much and you love those that built wrestling so much and you financially can raise money for these wrestlers, I would have done it in a heartbeat.

So at the end of the day, this is just a gimmick. Jim Cornett says mean things about you because it's a gimmick. Bro, you don't hear me say mean things. about him at all. As a matter of fact, bro, I probably put Cornette over at least once a week. I put him over. Absolutely, bro. It's folklore. It's, it's, you know, what he's created with his, you know, cult. And God forbid he ever went back on that, then in his mind his people would never look at him the same. Are you surprised that here we are 20 plus years later that impact wrestling is still around with all the different, you know, Carnations has been through, it's still here?

I'm just, I'm just shocked that it's still around with the numbers it's doing. See, bro, that's another thing, bro. Vince Rousseau was a failure at TNA, bro. You know, the only reason he was successful at WWE was because Vince was the filter. But yet today, they absolutely attack Vince McMahon more than they attack me because of of his creative. But back then, back then, he was, he was the creative mind because it couldn't have been me. But again, bro, TNA being one of my greatest failures, bro, we were drawing two million people.

I mean, let's be honest, bro. I mean, ratings were different back then. I understand that, bro, but we were also on Spike TV. Yeah. Okay, bro, we were also on a very small network drawing two million. My Raw was on Spike TV. Come on. Yeah, and look what happened to their ratings when they went on Spike TV.

But, but, you know, that's my point, bro. Like, I don't, bro, I'm not going to get caught up in any of the bullshit but the facts. Okay. When TNA was drawing two million people on Spike TV, I'm sorry, bro. I don't consider that a failure. Now, when I look at the impact numbers today, bro, first of all, of course, I don't watch impact. I don't think you can see the numbers. I don't think Access puts the numbers out.

Yeah, well, when they were, they were like really low. I got a lot of friends that work at Impact Wrestling. A lot of people that I really, really love. As a matter of fact, I had a conversation with Scott DeMore a couple of weeks ago. Does this mean you're going back to Impact? No, no, no, no, no. I just don't know, bro. I don't know the financials.

I don't know how it can continue to just to go on with the numbers that it draws. I don't know how that works. But I'm glad they keep it going because, like I said, bro, a lot of people I really care about or employed there and get paycheck. So I'm glad it's still going on. My friend Joe, who edits these episodes, he sent me. I could completely forgotten about them. The electrified steel cage, the barbed wire Christmas tree match. I mean, you were. No, that was not me. I can't take credit for that, bro. I cannot take credit for that. They seem like Vince Russo ideas.

Nah, bro. I have no problem telling you what were the bad Vince Russo. ideas that didn't work. Okay, what are they? Well, first let me clarify the electrified cage. Okay. Bro, I had left TNA and then I came back. And the first creative meeting I was at, that electrified cage was already booked. Now, this is my first meeting back.

And, you know, I'm there with Dutch and Jeff. And I'm like, I can't say anything because I don't want to be. be a problem my first meeting back. But I knew TNA, I knew the finances, bro. I knew how much money they didn't have. And I was like, based on that alone, this is going to be a nightmare. I mean, absolute nightmare. I did not say anything because I was just new back. And then, of course, they have the electrified cage and people start. I'm literally. back three days and people start chanting fire russo like yeah bro we we came up with that whole thing in freaking three days i i think dutch had the idea from puerto rico or something i don't know

that one is not mine the the ones that you know really stand out to me and and it really is because i didn't think them through bro and let me say this chris i'd rather try something new than repeat a match we've seen a billion times before. That's how I am. I'd rather try something new than just go back to the well for a million times. Sure. Bro, the dog kennel from hell is probably number one. And I'll tell you why, Chris, I swear, this is a God honest truth.

I think of the concept because the boss man, Al, story revolved around the little dog pepper, okay? So I thought of the concept. But in my head, in my head, they're attack dogs. You know, they're police dogs. The teeth are out and saliva is coming out and they're circling the ring. That's the picture in my head. So now, bro, I'm there at the building and they bring the dogs in.

And Vince, hearing the dogs for the match, blah, blah, blah. I walk over to look at the dogs and, bro, the first dog licked my hand. And I'm like, bro, I never, I never thought of, what if they're not attacked dogs? What if they're pets? You know what I'm saying? Like, and that's exactly what happened, bro.

These were the lamest, laziest. I feel like you were doing a dog adoption segment. Yeah, bro, I swear to God. And bro, and like I said, I 1,000% blame myself for that because I never took that into consideration. I'm literally convinced these are going to be attack dogs. So since they weren't, that actually sucked. The one I hated at T&A, bro, was we had a stairway to heaven match where we kind of had

like this platform and it was a death to the end between Abyss and Sting. And the match is over when the winner went to that platform and they were raised up to the heights, thus the stairway to heaven. Yeah, that. Again, bro, that was not good. But I don't have a problem with that because, like I said, Chris, I'd rather try something new than just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. But do you not realize that when you come up with a match, like wrestling fans are going

to remember things forever? So if it works, they'll remember forever. If it doesn't work, they'll also remember forever. Oh, well, no, bro. If it works, if it works, if it works, It was Vince McMahon, who was the great filter. And if it doesn't work, it was Vince Rousseau. What if it's in TNA?

Is it Dixie had a great idea? Is that what it is? I don't know, bro. Do they really put over many great ideas in TNA? Oh, come on. T&A, especially, you know, that I would say like TNA for like 06 to like 10, 2010 or 11. Incredible. The two things that stand out in my mind about TNA, there are two things that really

stand out on my mind. Kurt Angles debut when Samoa Joe busted it and there was that headbut. And bro, I thought the main event mafia was really good. And I especially like the main event mafia when within the group, Sting and Kurt had an angle. You know, so those are the two things. When I think about T&A, those are the two things. ACEs and eights, I think also doesn't get the respect for being. That wasn't mine.

You know, say again, bro. If I'm the guy they say they are, oh yeah, Chris, that was my. No, bro, I was gone. I was gone when they did ACEs and AIDS. I think there was a lot more good in TNA during your run, during the whole entirety of TNA than a lot of people give it credit for. And I think that's just a lot of fans maybe more watching it. We had it, bro, I could tell you this, we had a lot of fun.

I mean, bro, when when Hogan and Bischoff showed up the fun left, but up until that point, bro, I do have to, bro, I was a teen A for almost 10. years. So we, we had a lot of fun when we were doing it in those early years. What were the exact years you were in TNA? Oh, bro, I wish I could say. I guess we have all the, we have all the world's information in our. Yeah, I was at the second show. I was at the, I started working. I was at the second show. Then I left for a little while. Then I went back because Jeff's wife was stricken with cancer and i knew that jeff needed help so i went back to help jeff and then i left for good in 2012 what was the moment you think that t and a like jumped the shark like what was the moment

it was like yeah that was a little silly no i bro i don't think it was that it was it was the hogan bischoff thing bro it just it just changed the vibe and it changed everything and i really think bro, a lot of it was financial because the reality of it is Dixie wanted to hire Hulk Hogan. So we know that's going to cost a fortune. And then, of course, Hogan pulled the old. You hire me. You got to hire my boy here, which again, bro, I don't blame him for. That's what they do in wrestling.

So I think when Dixie hired the both of them, I don't think she could afford it. So now, Chris, what happens is now you start pulling money from everywhere else. Now you start pulling money from advertising and promotion and marketing and going on the road just in order to cover the nut. And I think that's what really happened. It wasn't necessarily anything creative. A lot of people want to say that. I'm not going to say that because it wasn't that.

It wasn't ideas they were throwing out. it wasn't that at all. I just think at the end of the day, Dixie couldn't afford it. And she had to start pulling that money from other places, which hurt all those other parts of the company. I think if people are going to give you credit for the things they don't like in TNA, they've also got to give you credit for the things that did work and the things they do like. Like, how much did you have to do with Kurt Angle coming into TNA? Well, that was really, him coming into TNA was Jeff.

the creative, I have to say was a good part in me. And the reason being, I got to tell you, bro, he was my favorite to ever work with. He just was. And I were, bro, I worked with a lot of A-holes, but I work with a lot of great guys. Kurt Angle was number one on that list, bro. He was such a pros pro. And I mean, I worked really, really closely with him. man, I can't say enough good things about it.

I'm fascinated by the idea that, like, if you choose this one thing in life, it can lead to this other thing, which leads to everything else in your life, which is why Back to the Future is my favorite movie of all time. When I interviewed Kurt Engel, I think it was the second time I interviewed him, he talked about how close he was to signing with UFC and that a deal was, like, presented to him, but he couldn't say no to the offer that he had in TNA. Like, think of how interesting that is. If the TNA offer wasn't there, we might be talking.

about Kurt Engel, former UFC light heavyweight champion right now. Yeah, no, that's true. That's amazing. And I really, I hope Kurt was happy with his time there. I don't think he was unhappy with the creative because he was involved in a lot of it. You know, bro, I was not the guy that dictated to the talent. I was the guy that went up to the talent and said, okay, bro, this is what I have. This is what I'm thinking.

Presented to them. See if there's anything they want to add. something they're really against. And, bro, my whole career was a collaboration. I mean, my entire career, no matter where I worked, that doesn't exist today. And to me, that's a big reason the business has taken steps backwards. I think Kurt's really proud of the matches he had in TNA. I mean, he told me those are the best matches of his career.

Just unfortunately, if you were a WWE fan, you didn't see his work with Samoa Joe, Sting, AJ Stiles, like such great stuff that he did there. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Do you think maybe you had won too many, something on a poll matches? No, bro, because I didn't have any. That's folklore, bro. Bro, I was in the business.

I started writing about, I'll roughly say, 96. Okay. I went to 2012. That's 16 years. Yeah. A lot of that 16 years, bro, were two shows a week, plus pay-per-views. Okay? I dare anybody in those 16 years with all those shows I wrote, I dare you to come up with 10 poll matches.

I dare you, bro. I dare you. You can come up with about three because that's what I remember. Bro, I remember green slip on a poll match. I remember Viagra on a poll match. a what's what we call it, Mrs. Bagwell, Judy Bagwell technically was not on a pole. She was on a forklift.

Okay, bro, and what was after that? Go ahead. I don't know. I'm actually going to look this up. Look at it. Do you know how many shows I wrote? Do you know how many shows I wrote? Do the freaking math, bro.

And they give me all these poll matches, bro. Okay. Every WCW on a poll match. Cole Miner's glove on a pool. That was not you. that's 92. This is a that's

key on a pole, Eddie Guerrero Perry Saturn. No, not me. Lead pipe on a pole? You'd have to look at the dates, bro. I think that was you. This is August 2000. This is Sting and Scott Steiner.

Oh, bro, I don't even know if I'm there, August. Crowbar on a pole match in 1999. What month? I don't know. Halloween Havoc. Yeah, that would be me, yes. Diamond Dallas, well, that's not a fascinating one. There's a lot.

There's a lot of poll matches. Not when I was there, bro. Look, I just think it's interesting. I think that... Again, bro, I do too, but like I said, when I say, okay, bro, give me 10... And I'm not talking, Neil, I'm talking about in general. Give me 10 poll matches that I booked in my...

What did I just say it was, bro? 15-year career. of writing two shows every week. Give me 10 poll matches. I dare you. Now I'm curious with the number one matches on here. What about the 49ers Gold Rush match? I need the dates.

I couldn't remember without the game. I agree on a poll is on this list. That is my. That I remember. That one's mine. Hardcore title on a poll match, April 2000, is the number one on this list. I don't know if I was there because I there.

There may be more than three. Maybe it's five. I don't know. No, no, no, no, no. Maybe there's more than three. I just said there are three to me that immediately come to mind. But come on, bro. Again, bro, they love creating the folklore.

We're going to create the folklore. But here's the problem, bro. When you go, anybody that really cares enough and goes back and does the history, it's all there, bro. You will find out what is truth and what is folklore. Bro, if I booked all these poll matches, I'd have no problem saying that. Why would I?

I don't give a crap, bro. I'd have no problem saying it. But what I'm saying is, bro, it's not what you've created over the years. So if we were to set up a bro on a poll match. Yeah. And it's Vince Russo, DDP, and Hulk Hogan, who says bro slash brother the most? Definitely, DDP. without a shadow of a doubt.

Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. So you'd book DDP to win the bro on a poll match? Without a shadow of a doubt. Yeah, DDP, yes, yes. It's true. I spend a lot of time with DDP. He does say, bro. Yeah, he opens everything with bro.

That's the first thing in everything he said. And I love Bades to death, man. Doesn't Hogan say brother because he just can't remember everyone's name? Probably, yes, probably. Yeah, but he is more of a brother guy than a bro guy. Yeah, he's not a, yeah, I guess it's really just you and Page that are the bro guys. Yeah, because listen, bro, like, listen, I even like Matt Riddle. I really do like I like the guy, but bro, don't, don't be a Johnny come lately with the bro.

Like with the, we've, we've done the bro. We own the bro. I love, I love Riddle, but he's Johnny come lately with the bro. Well, his is more of a bro. Yeah, more of the, the dude from a fast time. was his name again the character yeah like more like a modern like uh RVD like yeah dude bro yeah yeah and I do I do like riddle what even even even though I think he needs to slow down or he's not going to be walking it at 40 seriously yeah you talk about how you don't watch a lot of wrestling now

it's not the same as what it used to be what needs to change to make it how it used to be bro he bro can I can I be honest with you please the reason the attitude era stands out. Will you agree with me with that? Does everybody go immediately to the attitude era? Of course. Everyone says that that is the pinnacle of pro wrestling. Here's why, bro, because writers wrote the show. That's why writers handle this show as a television show with writing as a background. Bro, look at all the people that are in charge of the wrestling companies today. they're all wrestling marks. They're marks, bro.

They're wrestling. Triple H is a wrestling mark. Paul Heyman is a wrestling mark. Billy Corgan is a wrestling mark. Scott DeMore is a wrestling mark. Tony Kahn is the biggest wrestling mark. So what are they doing, bro? Here's the difference.

They're writing a show within the wrestling bubble. and they're writing a show that they like and they think is good from their wrestling perspective. That's not what we did, bro. We didn't write a show based on what I liked or what they liked. We wrote a show based on those ratings right in front of us. Those ratings that came in every week, we got the minute-by-minute breakdowns. Who did they like? Where are they turning out?

What do we need to give them more of? of what do we need to eliminate. There was a science to what we did. And as television writers, bro, here's the biggest difference in the world. With television writers, you're going to create characters. Then you're going to take those characters and you're going to put them in a storyline. Okay. Then that's out of that storyline will come the match.

So it's characters, story first, build it through story. and then the pinnacle is the match. With wrestling marks and those in the bubble, it's the complete opposite. Here's what they look at, Chris. They go down the roster, especially Tony Khan, what would be the best match? If we put so-and-so against so-and-so,

what would be the best match? So they book match first and then try to figure out some reason why, these guys are having a map. I just read an article two days ago about Tony Kahn, and he was talking about, you know, the forbidden door. And he was saying like, oh, no, bro, I think we could write a compelling show, even though these guys are never face to face or there's never a story.

They could cut compelling angles on who wants to be the best. bro, then you wonder why 300,000 people are watching Rampage. Can you imagine, bro? And bro, we're 80% there. 80% of professional wrestling matches today are. We're going to prove who's the best. Oh, my God. I will take a poll match over that any day of the week, bro.

One of the big things that people don't give you credit for. And Gangrel actually reminded me of this when I was speaking to him recently. Every character in the attitude era mattered. From the top of the roster, all the way down to the bottom. Everyone mattered and everyone had a storyline. And I think that not enough people give you credit for that. Chris, it was this simple with me.

JR was talent relations. So think of him as the general manager. Now, bro, I know J.R. Okay. and bro, he, bro, J.R. took his job very seriously. You know how much he loves Oklahoma football. He almost took his job like a college recruiter. So now when J.R. would hand me this roster, I knew everyone on that roster deserved a spot

because J.R. gave them the spot. And I knew J.R. wasn't hiring friends and that's not who J.R. was. So now when I got this roster, I know, bro, all of these people have earned their way on this roster. So now it was my job to support them and aid them as much as I possibly could in order for them to reach their full potential. Bro, the more people that are over, the more the show is going to be over. So that's why, bro, whether you were DeLo or Austin or a Luna Vashon or a Gangrel, bro, it didn't matter to me. If your name is on this roster, I am going to give you all the support I possibly can

to help you reach your full potential. How would you book CM Punk if you were running things in AEW right now? Oh, bro. That's the thing, bro. Bro, Tony Kahn's, what is he now? Three-time Booker of the year. First of all, bro, for the record, I was never a booker of the year. The year during the Deatitude area years,

Vince McMahon won Booker of the year. Vince McMahon never put one word to paper. Never, never, bro. But that's okay. But now we got Tony Khan three years in a row. Bro, you bring CM Punk back and he's in a six-man tag. Like really, bro? After everything that happened,

we're going to put this guy in a six-man tag. And then we're going to wonder, man, why did the ratings go down the second week? Like, really, bro? Here's what's missing in reality, bro. I mean, in wrestling. Reality. They, bro, they're so, they're so enriched in knee-deep in that wrestling bubble.

They don't know how to write reality. Bro, with me, it began and ended with reality. Bro, this is 2003. It is not 1973. So what would I have done with CM Punk? I would have shot with the story. That's what I would have done. Now, Chris, here's the thing, bro.

You can't assume everybody knows the story. So you got to tell the story first. You know, CM Punk's got to be the narrator. You got to explain to the casual fans what's going on here. Not everybody saw the scrum. So you've got to explain the story. but once you lay that story out, now just go with it, bro.

Just let it happen organically, man. And that's what's missing it missing today. Punk is back. He's in a six-man wrestling match. Next week, you lose 20% of that audience you had. Because there's no hook to bring them back, man. There is no hook to bring them back. So is the storyline you're saying,

make this real. So it is punk versus the, the Boxer, Punk versus Omega, the real life feud. Yeah, absolutely. And, bro, not just this, but across the board, bro. When all that stuff was going on with Vince McMahon and he's there and he's not there and Hunter's in charge. That would have been the story, bro.

That would have been the story. But like I said, bro, you've got the same dinosaurs who have been doing this forever and they're just doing it the same way. So what's happening, Chris, is times just passing them by. It was the same thing back in the attitude era. They were doing T.L. Hopper, the goon, who, what, where, and when. And the world was passing them by. All I said to Vince McMahon was, Vince, it's 1996, 1997, whatever it was.

We need to mirror society. Period. End of story, bro. We need to mirror society. That was the adjustment. The same adjustment needs to be made today. But bro, here's the bottom line. They don't care about bringing back the masses anymore.

They don't care about growing the audience. They don't care about the casual fans. They're very happy with that little niche wrestling audience because it's very, very, very easy to maintain. I feel like WWE does stuff to bring in casual fans, like Bad Bunny coming in and actually being a great worker, Logan Paul being part of big matches here. That brings in people who maybe aren't always watching.

I agree with you, Chris, a billion percent. But what happens when they bring those people in, they're not doing anything to keep them there? That's the problem. So as soon as Bad Bunny leaves, as soon as Logan Paul leaves, their people leave. Bro, when, when, perfect example is when we had Tyson.

And people were tuning in. And for Tyson, I knew, bro, a lot of people are going to be watching this show that don't normally watch it. We need to hook those people. So the idea 1,000% is correct. But the problem is, bro, the writing and the characters are not strong enough to maintain those people once their fan bases leave. After TNA, did you have any offers to write TV anywhere? bro I well you know in 2002 I almost went back to the WWA in 2002 yeah you know but you know insecure politicians made sure that didn't happen and I was fine with that bro I had a conversation with Vince McMahon not a conversation I don't ever want a text exchange text and and email bro

literally months before the FDAs came out and I I offered my consulting services, bro, because I would never go back to wrestling on a full-time basis. Never go out on the road, never be with those politicians, never, never, never. What year are we talking about? 2002? Wow. Yeah, 2002. So I often my consulting services, bro, I will sit here.

I will look at your show. I will tell you why people aren't watching it. if perhaps you want me to work on a particular character, I'll be happy to do that. I'm not coming to TV. I've got no interest in making this my job, right? So Vince wrote back and said, okay, I want you to watch,

I want you to watch Raw the next couple of weeks and send me your notes. And I said, okay, what are you paying me for that? And he said, I'm not paying you for nothing. You know, you have to prove yourself. And I'm like achieving the highest ratings in the history of your company wasn't proving

myself. Oh, Vince, you know, things have changed. The audience have changed. And I just said, Vince, with all due respect, I don't work for free, bro. Like, I'm in my 60s, bro. I'm doing well on my own. I don't have anything to prove to you because you know what I did. So I'm not doing this for free.

Bro, he sent me back this scathing email. How dare you? I would have jumped at the opportunity. And I didn't even answer it. I didn't even answer it because I'm like, bro, that's ego. Like that, that is ego. And I'm like, bro, I'm not going to work for free in hopes of you taking me on as a consultant when your product absolutely sucks. I was doing it, bro, because I hate having to watch

the product. So if I could help improve the product, great. I wanted to do it on my terms where I'm not, I'm not interested in working full time. And bro, at the end of the day, I could have helped you. I could have helped me make that show better, but I'm not, I'm not doing it for free. And that, And that was it. Like I said, bro, he wrote me a real nasty email that I didn't even answer. Is that door still open? No, hell. I don't, I don't, I, bro, I don't have any interest in even consulting now.

Like none, like zero. Yeah. Just enjoying your life in the mountains. Oh, bro, I love my life here, bro. That's why, I mean, bro, I get all the time, oh, bro, I'm the way I am because I'm bitter that AEW and WWE don't hire me. Lucky, what are you are effing mind, bro? I get up at 8 in the morning.

I do my podcasting, Chris. I'm done at 12 o'clock. Okay, I've got a 2,000 Jeep. Okay, and in the summer, that hooded comes down in May. I jump in my Jeep and I drive straight to the mountains. That's my life. Bro, Chris, I am not bullshitting you. This is the absolute truth.

if I took a full-time job with a wrestling company at my age and know everything that goes with that, bro, they'd find me dead in a hotel room. And I don't say that jokingly. I would not be able to handle that environment and everything that goes with it at my age. Just that pace is too much. Bro, it's, bro, honestly, man, it's more the politics than that. than the pace. It really is, bro. It's, it's dealing with those same people and, and you know what it's going to be. And it's having eyes in the back of your head. And I just,

man, bro, I'm a grandfather. I got my Jeep. I got my English bulldog. Never in a million years would I go back to that lifestyle. I appreciate your honesty about everything. I always love having a conversation with you because, I mean, you're not afraid to just tell it how it is because bro i'm not looking for a job that that's a beautiful like that's why people accuse me of of venture being you're saying this about the wwe because they're bitter and they won't hire you and i'm like bro think about that for second chris if i'm looking for a job with the w wwee am i really taking the right approach here like honestly you're certainly getting their attention but i'm but i'm being honest with them if you bro see that that's that's the problem bro that's the problem

they need, they need to listen to people like me. Hunter needs to have a conversation with me. Vince needs, even if it's a one-off, because I am a guy that watch the WWWF in the early 70s. Bro, I say to this day, the WrestleMania era, the first three years, that era, I say it to this day. To me, that was way better than the attitude era.

Way better. So my point is, bro, I watched it through Bruno. Then I watched it through Backland. Then I watched it through Hulkomania. You know, then I was actually involved with the writing. Bub, blah, blah. Bro, somewhere around 2000, this wasn't appealing to me anymore. And now I am one of the many that don't watch wrestling anymore.

that's who they need to speak to. They need to speak to people that used to watch this religiously and don't watch it anymore and understand why. Listen, Chris, I'm all about business. I'm sure you are too. You got a successful podcast there. You're doing great. Bro, it's all about business.

And what they're doing is, this is AEW and the WWE, Chris, they're catering to. a to a fan base, they already have. They already have. The people that are watching Raw and Smackdown and AEW, they're going to watch it regardless. That's what they do, bro. That is your core audience. They will never go anywhere.

I had the same core audience when I started back in 96, 97. The idea was, okay, Vince, how do you get more people to watch this. And that's when we really started opening up the envelope with characters that that kind of represented. I didn't cater to the dirt sheets. I didn't cater to the hardcore audience we already had. They weren't going anywhere. And that's why, Chris, you know, from a business standpoint alone, I guess this is what it comes down to. I really believe this is what it comes down to because neither company is growing the audience nor trying to grow the audience. You know, you mentioned the bad bunny and, and, you know, that stuff is good, but they're not

grabbing that audience. Here's the problem. And kudos to the WWE, not AEW. I'll tell you why. Bro, with Nick Kahn, they've made amazing deals. And bro, let's face it, man, a lot of their deals are being made off of the reputation and the 50 years of branding and who they were. That's right. And that's fine. You should take advantage of that. But bro, with the with the licensing deals and the streaming deals and the TV deals, they are making a shit load of money.

The company's never been more profitable. You look at the stock today. It's like 110. It's almost double if you bought the stock, you know, a year ago. Absolutely. Absolutely, bro. The market cap is $8 billion. I give them all the credit in the world for that.

So honestly, bro, when you look at it, there's no reason for them to change anything. Because what they're doing right now, Chris, is this is what Raw is because it's the only show I watch. Bro, it's a televised house show. They're televising a house show. That's all they're doing, but they're making all this money. But, Chris, my argument to that is, what would you be making if the show is actually good? Like, think about that. With the money you're making out, if the show were good, A.E.W on the other side,

wow, bro, this is a billionaire where money means nothing to him. I mean, it might as well be monopoly money. And this is a wrestling mark who will tell you, I was. booking e-feds when I was six years old. And bro, now he's doing the same thing with real people. His dad's a billionaire. Money means absolutely nothing, bro. Tony Kahn is doing this for himself because he loves this.

Growth and losing money is not important. And Chris, I'm going to bring up something that nobody else brings up. And please tell me if I'm illogical, okay? And Tony Kahn addresses people online with 10 followers, but he's yet to address this. And I put it out there loud and clear. Chris, let's look at the Young Rock. And you know television. First year, the Young Rock was doing 3 million people.

Second year, 2.2. Okay. Third year, 1.4. canceled. Okay, bro. So we went from 3 million to 2.2 million to 1.4 million with arguably the biggest movie star in the world. Cancelled. You've got AEW the very first show Dynamite ever did.

We're going on four years in October. First show they ever did, 1.4 million. They've never topped that number ever. ever. That was their highest rating ever. So then they come out of the gate, their head to head with NXT. NXT moves over off the night. And everybody said, oh, my God, bro, the number is going to shoot up over a million, this and that. And I sat there and said, no, it's not. They're not going to, they're not going to draw over a million people with this show. Well, what do you mean? Vince, they don't have competition. It doesn't matter whether they have competition or not. The show sucks.

Period, bro. Casual fans are not going to watch this show. Okay, bro. So they never increase that rating. And we're seeing it now, bro, I think this past week was 800,000. Okay, bro. They increased that rate. But even with not increasing that rating, now they're going to be rewarded with a second show. Well, that's kind of odd, bro. Because usually, Chris, there's a spin-off when the original. show is drawing numbers. Okay. Then, oh, we got to get, bro, that's what happened with Thunder and, and Smackdown. Raw and Nitro were so popular

and the numbers were growing that the network said, bro, we got to spin this off. So now you've got AEW, their numbers are not growing, and we're going to spin this off into Rampage. Well, bro, the Rampage numbers

do even worse. You're getting those rampage numbers down into the 300,000s. Okay, bro, let's reward those numbers with another show on Saturday. No, bro, networks don't work that way. We saw what happened with the rock. Three, two point two, one point four, you're out. That's network television, though. Bro, I work with Spike.

I work with TVS. I work with TNT. I was consulting for you. Those are all cable networks, though. Like, you know, Rock was on NBC. No, I understand that, bro. But my point was, bro, I was, bro, bro, I was consulting with USA Network for two years as of about a year ago. Okay.

On the phone with them every week. WWE did not know I was consulting with the USA network. Why was I consulting with them, bro? Because they were not happy. with the numbers. They felt they were not getting back the investment of what they paid for. So they were paying me as a consultant to do what I offered to Vince. And I can tell you, bro, they were not happy with the numbers. That's why they were paying me. So my point is, you, you've got a, I'm not talking about how shows and pay-per-views and all that shit. I'm not

talking about that. You've got a television product. where the brand is not growing on TV. And you keep rewarding them with more hours and more hours of television. That still doesn't continue to grow. How is that possible, bro? I would say the only reason that's possible is it's such a different landscape of television right now and people are tuning in to watch things that are live. And the show that crushes every Sunday is NFL football.

And the only other thing that people watch live is wrestling in sports. And I think they're going, well, I don't know what we were going to do with that Friday night slot. I don't know what our numbers were going to be. But this has got to be better than what we were going to have in that slot. Can I tell you why he got collision? Please. He's paying for the TV time, bro. He's paying for this is a, people don't understand.

You're saying it's not the other way around. Absolutely not. He's paying for the time, bro. That's why he's getting, bro, people don't understand. This is a billionaire. So billionaire. Tony goes to TBS and says, hey, bro, for an hour on Friday nights, what would you expect to make in that hour from advertising? What would you guys want to bring in prime time from eight to nine?

TBS tells them this is what we'd have to make in that hour. Bro, billionaire Tony says, okay, no problem, I'll double it. Bro, that's the only reason they're getting additional television. No, bro, no network. I don't care if you're a network. I don't care if you're cable. I don't care if you're a streaming service. You're not going to get rewarded when you have a product on the same network where the numbers continue to go down. A television is not going to reward that. So the bottom line is the dude's buying the time because he has the money to buy the time. but Chris, I still get back to the business aspect of it.

And it's so hard to digest because at the end of the day, Tony Con is not in this to make money. And when you make that realization, there's nothing to argue because the guy doesn't care about making money. What do you think he cares about? Running his own wrestling federation, bro. It would almost be like me owning a business. baseball team. Honestly, bro, even though, bro, seriously, if I own my own baseball team, I'd want to make

money. But, like, that's the thing, Chris, we can't, I can't comprehend what it is to be a billionaire. Like, I really can't. I mean, to this day, bro, I'm saving dimes and nickels for retirement. I want to be able to retire. And I'm still busting my ass to say to just have endless cash, I just, I don't know what that would be like. I feel like we could talk for like another seven hours about this, but I'm going to wrap things up here. I mean, if people want to hear more, they can tune into your podcast or any of the podcasts on your network.

Yeah, guys, Rousseau'sbrand.com. Just go there, man. And it's just not me, man. There's a lot of your favorites, bro. I do shows with a lot of people. They do their own shows. And we just talk real. That's the thing, bro.

To get on Rousseau's brand, here's the number one reweckquisite. it you cannot be looking for a job. If you're a wrestler looking for a job and I smell you a mile away, you're not coming on my network, bro, because you're not going to tell the truth. You know, we tell it like it is on the network. We're not looking for employment. So I end every conversation. I don't think we did this last time you were on the show.

Gratitude is such an important part of my life. I say out loud three things I'm grateful for. Before I go to bed and I do it when I wake up in the morning. Vince, what are three things in your life that you're grateful for? Oh, bro, like, seriously, man, I'm just, I'm, bro, you know, there was a period. And, and, you know, bro, it's almost like I'm ashamed to even say this, but it's, it's what happens when you work at the WWE. And I see it now with so many people, bro. there was a point in my life where the job superseded my family.

And like, I'm ashamed of that. And I am embarrassed of that. But I got so caught up in the week to week that there was a period of a couple of years there. Bro, that was the wake-up call for me. Thank God was the day, you know, Vince McMahon said to me, you know, when, you know, he added Smackdown and all of a sudden I was working 24 hours a day. And I was really having like a mental breakdown.

And I went into him and I had a conversation. And that's when he said to me, Vince, I don't see what the problem is. Hire a nanny to take care of your kids. Bro, I thank him for that because that was the wake up call. That's when I left the WWE. And that's when I realized, bro, this is just a job, man. this means nothing. It means nothing.

So, bro, first and foremost, it really is, you know, my family, bro, because they very easily could have abandoned me when, you know, I was caught up in this trap. But the fact that, bro, next year I'm going to be married for 40 years, I've got, I've got three great kids, you know, adults grown up, I've got grandchildren, I've got my my English bulldog Penelope, that is the absolute most important thing to me, bro. So that's just one thing. What are three things? Okay.

That's it. That's it. Well, sir, thank you so much. It's always so interesting talking with you. I feel like I have to have you on more often. Have me on, bro. Chris, I'm right here, man. You sent me to DM, boom.

I'm like, yeah, bro. Okay. I'm there, bro. Let's do it. Bro. Thank you so much. All right, Chris. Thanks a lot.

man, I always enjoyed talking to you, man. Okay, Vince Russo, ladies and gentlemen, I mean, he gets so much hate. And sure, you are welcome to feel however you want to feel about him. But like I said at the start of this episode, he has been nothing but very kind to me. And I just find it funny that he's like, I don't even, I hate wrestling, bro. It's like, I only watch it because I get paid a lot to watch it, you know, to do analyzing of it. So interesting. He's such a fascinating guy.

I hope you enjoy this. please share it with someone who either loves Vince Rousseau or perhaps does not like Vince Rousseau. Take a screenshot and tag us. He's at the Vince Rousseau. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. And I love quotes from athletes. I love quotes from Babe Ruth. We've shared some of those before. This is a great quote from Babe Ruth.

Every strike brings me closer to the next home run. That's that whole idea of like it's not win or lose. It's win or learn. Every strike brings me closer to the next home run. home run. Be great. Be grateful. We will see you on the next one for some more in seconds. So close to episode 500. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do with rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about. You're complaining more than you like to breathe air. It's like you get up in the morning only to complain and cry and moan on

social media about things that you don't even understand. He's the spitfire of sports smack. Ticket banjov, but get up in here. The Jim Rome Show podcast. What should be? Follow and listen on your favorite platform. You've been warned.