Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Vince Russo says he has only one regret, what people misunderstand about him, winning the WCW title

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

Vince Russo is a professional wrestling booker and personality, author, and podcaster. He joins Chris Van Vliet from his home in Thornton, Colorado to talk about his podcast "The Vince Russo Brand", how he started working for WWE, getting lured to join WCW during the Monday Night Wars, booking himself to win the WCW Championship, why WCW failed, David Arquette's pro wrestling redemption, the one regret he has, his current relationship with Eric Bischoff, his time working for TNA, why he uses the word "bro" so often and much more! If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to https://chrisvanvliet.comFollow CVV on social media:  Instagram:instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter:twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook:facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube:youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, y'all? It's Druski, and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Do Zone with Drewski. Learn the backstories of your favorite ballers and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around that time? Come on, bro. I ain't that old, fam.

You're talking like I was 50. Taylor, Roach, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to the Doozone with Drusky on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Well, hey there. Welcome back to Insight. So good to have you with us. And man, what a string of guests we've had over the last few weeks.

Ben Ascran, as he gets ready for his big boxing match against Jake Paul, Jeff Timmons, the legend from 98 degrees who is dropping some big time knowledge bombs during that interview. Oh, if you haven't checked it out yet. Please, please. Do yourself a favor and check it out. We also had the new Hall of Famer, Eric Bischoff, very well deserving, that he's being inducted into the WWB Hall of Fame. And how fitting is it that we had Bischoff on last week

and Vince Rousseau on today? They're both such big players in the rise and fall of WCW. And it's so interesting to hear from both of them because they're both polarizing figures in the wrestling world, but they're also polar opposites when it comes to their personalities. You'll see exactly what I mean from this interview. Take a screenshot. Let us know that you're on.

this audio adventure with us. Tag me. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Tag Vince. He's at the Vince Rousseau. And if it's your first time here, first of all, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Hope to see you back again soon. But make sure to subscribe or follow wherever you're listening. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, I heard they're actually getting rid of the subscribe button. They're changing it to a follow button, which is what Spotify uses. So if you subscribe on Apple podcasts, you will soon be following me on Apple Podcasts. You know what I'm talking about. I guess we'll see. Speaking of Apple Podcasts, could I convince you to take a minute of your free time sometime this week to leave a review on there? We are creeping ever so close to 2000 reviews. We're at 1811 right now,

and we have less than two months until that goal, until my birthday, May 19th. So let's do this thing together. Big Joe says amazing. Just started listening two weeks ago, and I'm loving it. Chris said he needs 2K reviews and ratings by his birthday in May. So here's my review. Keep it up, bro. Well, thank you, Big Joe, who spells a B-Y-G Joe, by Joe. And I appreciate you saying, bro.

Keep it up, bro. You're getting here a lot of bros in this interview with Vince Russo. In fact, I asked him, Vince, why do you say bro? so often. It's actually really interesting to hear his answer. Let's get to it. Ladies and gentlemen, the one, the only, Vince Rousseau. Yeah, let's do this thing. Vince Rousseau. Thank you so much for making the time for this. Oh, no problem, man. I'm happy to be here. You're a big hitter on the podcasting scene. And when I heard from you, I was like, yeah, man, I'd love to do the show. I just got to keep up with you. That's the whole thing here. Well, I don't know. You, you

may be too young to keep up with me. You know, when you hit 60, then you really get rolling. You're 60. I can't believe you're 60. Yeah, I can't either. I just turned 60 in January. And man, I'm telling you, leading up to that 60th birthday, I was going through a lot. Like, no other birthday, 30, 40, 50, nothing affected me like 60. But I hit it. And here I I am and I'm still going. Yeah, how do you feel at 60? Man, I feel good, man. I feel, you know, it's, bro, it takes us a long time to figure things out. And I'm in a point in my life now where I think for myself, I have everything figured out. I know what I want to do. I don't, I know what I don't want to do. And it's, it's great, man. It's really great. What is it that you want to do right now? And what's

specifically do you not want to do well bro i love i've been podcasting now for seven years yep i love the freedom absolutely love the freedom you know bro i was in a i was in a business you know i officially got in the wrestling business in 1991 right um bro it's just very political you know very very political and you know you just you can't be your It's like you have to watch every word you say and every move you make and who's standing behind you with a knife and who's going to use this against you and, oh, man, if I say that, are they going to take it the wrong way? To just have the freedom to be you, you know, again, getting back to the 60-year-old thing, it is the greatest gift I could have at this point of my life.

You have one of those names that when you say Vince Rousseau in the wrestling world, people immediately feel something, whether that's good or that's bad. But I'm very curious, Vince, what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about you? Gosh, bro. You know, I think the problem with me, honestly, when I was writing for the WWE, I was never discussed. My name was never brought up. I did my job. We did our thing with the attitude era. Everything was hunky dory.

I went to WCW. And you've got to understand in my first meeting with them, you know, me and Ed Ferrara explained to them over and over and over again. Because at that point, the WWE, you know, we had just left, we were driving. we were drumming them in the ratings. WCW was at such a low point. Nobody was watching the show. Now, you got to understand

when Ed Farrar and myself were writing into WWE, the shoe was on the other foot. So WCW was killing us. So as we grew those ratings, I had charts. I had numbers. I had everything. I knew how long the process took.

And I tried to explain to WCW, you're not going to get the ratings back overnight. It doesn't work that way. It's literally years of good, consistent television. And, you know, the whole game plan was their ratings were so low. We're going to break everything down. We're going to demolish everything. And we're going to start building, you know, our house. And we explained to them.

It's going to be at least a year until you see any growth in ratings. But it was funny, bro, because as I was explaining this to them, I knew darn well, they're going to want ratings in two weeks. Sure. And sure enough, bro, like a month, two months, we're into the job, so much pressure with ratings. So I just got to the point where I said to myself, you know what, if you're going to, guys want ratings that bad, I'll go out there and do it myself. Literally, like, that was my attitude.

It was kind of like, if my backside is going to be on the line, then I'm going to either fail or succeed on my own merit. So what I did was, and this is the success of every wrestling character, okay, to be a successful wrestling character, you got to keep in mind, these men and women are not actors and actresses. So you have to find something in them that's very real, something that they're passionate about, and you've got to magnify it a million times old. Okay? Like all the successful people you see like, you know, Austin and Rock, you can go down the line, Sean Michaels, they were a seat, Their character was really a seedling of who they were.

We just magnified. Sure. So my attitude was growing up in New York, I know the stereotype that people have of New Yorkers who live outside of New York. People hate New Yorkers. So my whole attitude was, if you hate New Yorkers, I'm going to give you a real reason to hate New Yorkers. So I went over the top with the real New York persona.

And, bro, I got to be honest with you, this was the first time people saw me on TV. This was the first time people put a face to the name. Bro, people thought I was that guy. And I'm like, no, bro, this is a wrestling show. We are all characters. I am playing an ego, maniacal, hateful, greedy New Yorker. Like, that's the role I'm playing. But bro, it blows me away because to this day, people think that's who Vince Rousseau is.

Well, it's difficult when your character and you have the same name. You're both named Vince Rousseau. So people don't know where Vince Rousseau the character ends and Vince Rousseau the person. and begins. Bro, you want to hear something very interesting about what you just said. It is very true. Because when I was working with Goldberg, listen, before I got to WC. Gowber, WCW, Goldberg had a streak of 800 and O.

Okay. Bro, when a guy gets that kind of a push from a baby face standpoint, like, where are you going to go from there? You know what I mean? So the logical thing was. was, okay, Goldberg's got to be heel. Bro, he never wanted to be a heel. He fought me tooth and nail.

And I remember saying to him, Bill, you need to explain this to me because you play a heel in the movies. Remember like he was in that Christmas movie and it was like the killer Santa? I said, I don't understand, bro. You're playing a heel in the movies. Why is this any day? different. And bro,

Bill Goldberg's calling you right now. Wow. I got a duck calling me or some over here. So, so bro, Bill looked at me and he said, because in those movies, I'm not Goldberg.

And he was right. He said, as Goldberg, you're using my real name. I've got a persona, you know, with kids when I go to hospitals and one. And like when he said that to me,

I understood it and I got it. So, bro, you're dead on with that analogy. And I feel like for 20 years, I've been like, you know, trying to convince people, I am not that guy. But, you know, it's almost like where it's turned into a thing where they want to believe on that guy. And I'm like, okay, believe on that guy then, you know. Well, how much of what you did in the ring with your promos and your work there

leaked into the backstage area and the persona that you had backstage when you were working with people? Not at all, bro. I mean, absolutely not at all. Bro, I was, I am the kind of guy. I don't like to be the boss. I don't ever want to be the boss. I always wanted to do what I did best. And what I did best was I wrote television and I produced talent. I'm the kind of guy, bro. I want to be in the trenches. I always said, bro, wrestlers at heart, I don't care how much money they're making. Bro, they're all blue-collar men and women. I don't care how much money they're making. I don't care how many people are in the audience. These guys and gals bust their backsides. So I was the kind of guy, bro, where like I like to consider myself blue-collar.

I got down in the trenches and I worked. I wasn't the guy people feared. You know, bro, I worked for Vince. Vince McMahon got off on people fearing him. You know, I worked with Eric Bischoff. Eric Bischoff got off on people. That was never me, bro. If anything, that's where I probably made a mistake

because I was more of a friend and a colleague than I ever was a boss, telling people what to do. if you don't do this, these are the consequences. I was never that guy, bro. As a kid growing up in New York, who did Vince Rousseau want to be when he grew up? Man, bro. Well, you know, it's funny because as a kid, I think this is what's weird to me about like today's wrestling too.

As a kid, I think everybody went through the phase of, you know, I wanted to be a baseball player. Yeah. I loved baseball. but you get to a certain age when, you know, you're watching a lot of baseball and you're playing a lot of baseball, you come to a certain age, probably like 15 or 16, where you realize those baseball players are special people. Like, it ain't going to happen. You know, it ain't going to happen.

So you give up on that dream. But my dream job, as I became a. adult, you know, going into college and graduating from college. See, this is what people don't understand about me. I think this is why some people have a hard time with me. Bro, I never had a dream of getting in the professional wrestling business. Like, that was never my dream. That was never my goal. If I had my choice, bro, I would have wanted to get into radio. I got a taste of radio. And I loved it. I loved it. I loved. the medium. I still love it today. That explains the podcasting. Sure. You know, I, I wanted to be a guy on

the radio. That was really my goal and my ambition. Yeah, you went to school for journalism. And then you did have a radio show for what was it, a year? Yeah, yeah, maybe a little over. I'm not sure, but yeah, bro, but you know, in 1991, I had a radio show out on Long Island. I loved it, bro. I loved and man, if it were up to me, I would have done that for the next 30, 40 years. So why wasn't it up to you? Well, bro, I'll tell you what happened. Honestly, I, at that time,

I had two very, very successful video stores. Video stores were just starting, bro. Like, this is the mom-pop era. Yeah. And I had two stores very, very successful. and one day blockbuster, you know, right next to one of my stores right across the street from the other store. So I knew like it was over. Like I could not compete with them on a financial level.

So I needed a job. I mean, that's really what it came down to. I had a son at that point. I knew my businesses was going out of business. I needed a job. job. And that's when I was, you know, doing the radio show, that's when I wrote a letter to Linda McMahon. And I just said, listen, Linda, this is who I am. This is what I'm doing. I would love any kind of an opportunity because, you know, I grew up enjoying wrestling. You know,

I grew up a wrestling fan, just like I was a baseball fan, just like I was a kiss fan. And I thought, you know, man, it might be cool to work in wrestling. So I wrote Linda a letter and, you know, the rest is history. But I think that there's a huge takeaway here for anybody that wants to, whether it's work in wrestling or whatever industry it is that they're interested in, you took those steps for yourself. You actually wrote a letter to Linda McMahon and said, here's who I am, here's what I want to do. That's how my career started. I wrote unsolicited emails and said, I'm willing to work for free. Just give me a chance. Well, there was a time. bro, like keep in mind, I did have a college degree.

I did lose my video stores. Bro, there was a time. There was a big electronics chain out on Long Island. It's still there, bro. You probably know it. It's called PC Richards and Son. They've been sponsoring the Yankees for years. But, bro, there was a time in my life where, you know, I was newly married.

I had a young baby. Bro, I was selling appliances full-time working at, as a freelance writer for the WWE magazine. And bro, I was doing that 60, 70 hours a week. That's when I talk to you about work ethic, that's just the way I've always been. So how did it go from writing for the magazine to writing for the shows? Well, man, I've got to be honest.

I, when I got the job with the WWE, being a fan my whole life, bro, it was at a point where I thought the product was atrocious. I mean, I'm talking like mid-90s at this point. Yeah, bro, we're talking Mantar and what and Billy Joe Floyd and the goon. And I'm like, this is, this is terrible. So, bro, the only way I could keep my sanity was I started creating my own, my own angles in the magazines. Like I wasn't following what they were doing on TV because I thought it was ridiculous. So I just started creating angles, my own angles in the WWE magazine. man, I was very, very outspoken about how I felt about the product.

At some point, Bill Watts was hired, and Bill Watts, I had a conversation with Bill Watts and he got a feel for who I was and he asked me if I'd like to, you know, sit in on creative meetings and I did that. I sat in on creative meetings. and I think basically, bro, it just got to a point where the rating was so bad that I actually had a phone conversation with Eric Bischoff because I wanted to go work there. That's where it was happening. The NWO, that's where the wrestling business needed to go. what happened was I'm I'm such a loyal and honest guy that after I had that conversation with Eric,

I was carrying so much weight on my shoulders and I felt so guilty because I really did feel a loyalty to Vince and Linda. So what I did was I scheduled a meeting with Linda because all I wanted to get out of that meeting was, listen, if all you think I'm capable of doing is the magazine, you need to tell me that. Because if she would have said that, I really would have done everything I could to get into WCW. Sure. So I schedule a meeting with Linda and I sit down with Linda. And before one word is spoken, Vince walks in and takes a seat. Now, keep in mind, Vince and I really didn't have a relationship at that point. Like we met every month about the magazine and stuff.

And I was always upfront and honest with him. So the fact that Vince was. walked in, I'm like, listen, I came here for one reason and one reason. I'm not going to back off just because Vince is here. So I said exactly that. I said, listen, if you think I'm just capable of writing your magazine, you need to tell me that because I need to know that. Bro, Vince got red in the face. How dare you come in here, blah, blah, blah. And like, I'm sitting there and I'm saying to myself, bro, like, I want to help you. Like, I don't know.

I don't know, bro, if it was, if he wanted to see if he could intimidate me. I don't know what it was, but his anger really was unfitting for the situation. So I said to him, Vince, all I want to do is help you. Like, I think I could do more. I just want to help you. Yeah. Now, bro, I got to tell you, this was a Friday, and I left, I left that office and I'm like, bro, I'm probably going to be fired.

But I got to tell you something very important that I think is very important for people to know out there like, you know, how you go from point A to point D. Okay. bro, I got to tell you, when I was sitting in that meeting with Linda or Vince, I knew, bro, you're either going to go to the next level or you're going to be working for another company. Like, you know, I took my you know what's in my hands. But bro, the reason why I did that was I had confidence in myself. Like my thought really was, bro, if Vince McMahon wants to find.

me over this because I want to help him, bro, fire me. I'll go work someplace else with somebody that appreciates me. That was really my attitude. Yeah. So like the whole weekend, I'm like, bro, this gay, I mean, I might get fired, you know, because he was that hot, right? So I'll never forget, bro, that Monday there was a raw on TV and it was like half of it was in the UK and half of it was in the United States.

bro it was horrible like it was perhaps the worst wrestling show i'd ever seen okay so bro i i get in the next day i get into the office like very early in the morning it's like eight o'clock in the morning and i get a call from vince's assistant Vince wants to see you immediately bro i'm on the second floor Vince is on the fourth floor i swear to you bro from floor to floor to to floor four, what's going through my mind is, okay, bro, what kind of a job are you going to get next? There's no doubt in my mind I'm going up there to be fired because the show was so bad. I had this kind of little heating exchange when I'm on Friday. I'm thinking, this guy's going to make an example out of me.

He's got to take his anger out on somebody that's going to be me. So, bro, it's funny. I go up to his office and, bro, all his minutes. are sitting around the table. And, bro, it's all of them. It's Shane. It's Pritcher. It's J.R.

It's Jim Cornett. It's Paterson. So, bro, I'm like, I believe 100%. He is going to make an example in front of me in front of all these people. This is Vince now putting out his chest. And, bro, I'm prepared for all this. Like, I'm not freaking out around. anything. I'm calm as a cucumber. I'm prepared for this. And bro, he's got the WWE Raw magazine

in his hand and it's it's, you know, rolled up. He throws this magazine down on the desk and he says, this is what the show needs to be. Bro, I was floored. I never in my wildest dreams did I think that I think that meeting was going to go that way. I thought I was walking in that room to be fired. Wow. Do you remember what the first storyline that you were part of that you wrote for WWE was? Oh, gosh, I wish I could.

I can't. I only know really the timing. And I think that that show was sometime around like March of 97. and like immediately after that meeting, like I immediately was put into that slot. And early on, bro, at the very outset, it was me, Cornett, and Vince. I mean, that was it.

We were the three people writing the show at that point. Do you realize how different the attitude era would look if it wasn't for that meeting that you just described? Bro, I'm going to tell you something. When I had that phone conversation with Eric Bischoff, bro, Eric was so pompous and so arrogant and so full of himself. But you have to understand, I'm saying to myself on the other end of the phone, bro, at that point in time, he had every right to be. They were kicking our backside, bro. So Eric Bischoff had every reason to be an A-hole.

every reason in the world. However, bro, if he would have hired me, bro, I could tell you right now, there would have never been an attitude era. I don't know what would have happened with the WWE at that time. I could only tell you at that time the WWE was in the red. They were in trouble. They were not publicly a public company at that point. They were in a lot of. of trouble. That's why I think Vince was almost forced to try something new because he had been going with this old guard for so long and, you know, the ratings just kept plummeting and plummeting and plummeting. So I honestly believe he was in a position where he had nothing to lose. But, bro, if Eric would have hired me off of that conversation, the history would have been

completely different. Right. It's so easy to look at it now with hindsight being 2020 going, oh, if this happened and this wouldn't happen and if this didn't happen, you know, all that type of stuff. But I wonder how much longer WCW might have stayed in business. Or WCW or WCWE. Well, well, I guess either. I mean, WWE is still in business. WCW is not. So I wonder if WCW could have kept the momentum going. Yeah, you know, it's it's tough, bro. I I don't know what would have happened on the WCWN, and I'll tell you why, because obviously I've had a couple working stints with Eric, and it did not work out. So that probably would not have worked out.

But I don't know. I don't know what would have happened at the WWE. I don't know at that point in time who Vince would have turned to. I really don't. You know, what you're describing here with WWE doing the same stuff over and over again, and the ratings dropping, that kind of sounds like what's going on right now there. Bro, they're at the exact same place. And it blows my mind.

They're at the exact same place. Well, you mentioned Eric Bishop. Is there animosity between you guys even still to this day? Yeah, bro, we don't like each other. And, you know, Eric, Eric publicly, you know, he's got his show. and bro, he always finds a way to bring me up on his show and bury me on his show. I don't do that, bro. The only time I will talk about it is there have been times on his show where he'll say stuff about me

and it's just a blatant lie. Bro, when people lie about me, I have a hard time with that. You know, bro, if you don't like the way I wrote or you didn't like a storyline, like that's fine. Like, that's your opinion. Everything is subjective. When you lie about me and make stuff up about me, I have a hard time with that. But bro, this is how I look at it. Bro, we were oil and water. Eric was the guy that likes to be the boss, that likes people to fear him. You know, Eric doesn't like to get his hands dirty. He likes to make executive decisions and tell people what to do. That's great, bro. There are people like that. I'm not knocking that. I'm the complete opposite, bro. I don't want to be

anybody's boss. I don't want to tell anybody what to do. I want to get in there and I want to get my hands dirty. I want to work the 20 hour days. I don't want the corner office. I don't want the gold card. None of that stuff was ever important to me. So, bro, you just had. You just had. two guys that were just completely different. And then you try to put them together to work on a unite, it's just not going to work. So where does it shift from people not liking what you're writing to actually not liking you? Real simple, very simple. We're really talking about the loud minority, not the silent majority. The silent majority, bro, are the casual wrestling fans, the casual television viewers, the millions and millions of people that were tuning in every

week and weren't necessarily wrestling fans because those people loved the entertainment aspect. I'm an entertainment guy, bro. I'm not a. match guy. I never was a match guy, even when I was a fan growing up. I love the entertainment aspect. And I knew, bro, if you're a wrestling fan, you're going to watch this show as long as wrestling is in the marquee. We've got to get the casual fans who wouldn't watch a wrestling show. So, bro, we did that through entertainment. Well, bro, now the loud minority are the wrestling marks and the dirt sheets. And what do the wrestling marks and the dirt sheets hate?

They hate entertainment. Bro, somewhere along the lines, this niche audience, bro, I swear to you, they've convinced themselves that wrestling is real. and these matches are real and these matches should be 20 or 30 minutes and these guys should be putting their lives on the line. They've convinced I'm the complete opposite, bro. I'm an entertainment guy. A couple of things are going to happen if you lean on the side of entertainment. First of all, you're going to grow your audience tremendously.

But second of all, bro, what you're going to do is you're going to prolong the, the careers of these guys, the less they have to do in the ring, killing themselves, the longer and longer they can make money in the business. Bro, to me, it's common sense. But it's like, you know, bro, again, when I deal with these marks and these dirt sheets, it's all about the fake fight. And bro, that's why I look at AEW and I'm like, Brody, you guys want to grow your audience or don't you? You're not going to grow your audience with, you know, 15 minute six-man match, eight-man match, one right after the other.

Because, bro, if you're not a wrestling fan, you're not going to watch that. So you've got to assume the wrestling fans are going to watch. watch no matter what they're not going anywhere that's what they do and you got to figure out how do i get the rest of the world that's how you get ratings man so if we were hypothetically if you were given the ability to be the head writer for a w what's the first few things that you change oh man bro the the first few things i change is you know cut down the match i mean bro there have been studies over the years of the attention span of people. Every year, bro, the attention span gets shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter.

Bro, the only person that's going to watch a 10-minute match, a 15-minute match, a 20-minute match, maybe even an 8-minute match are going to be die-hard wrestling fans. Bro, if you go back and you study the attitude era, you will see one thing. bro no wrestling match ever went through a break ever ever bro once in a while bro there was a exception in like in the main event if it was like a big main event you know bro 99% of the time the match is part of the segment no matches ever went through commercial break because we were addressing the attention span bro for the for the for the for the for the for the average casual fan. I'm talking casual fan now. The minute the bell rings, they want to know two

things. I'm telling you, bro, they want to know, A, who's going over and B, what's next. That's what the casual fan wants to know. So again, bro, if you want to take, you know, if they're drawing 750,000 people, and you want to turn that into three million, bro, you've got to get the masses. and you're not going to get the masses through wrestling matches. I became a massive fan during the attitude era. I was in high school at the time. And I'm really curious, maybe you can tell me this. Why did so many episodes of Raw back then start with a 20-minute promo in the ring?

Well, bro, because there's a very simple formula that worked for years and years and years that they've completely gotten away from. And I'll tell you what, because, bro, television viewers, they're creatures of habit. Now, I could tell you, bro, we, nobody looked at ratings like we did. Nobody looked at numbers like we did. And I could tell you 100% of the time, when you open the show with a match, that first segment would always be lower than if it were a talking segment. 100% of the time, a match opening the show never outdrew a talking segment.

Because, bro, what happened was we got people into a routine. Every wrestling show, bro, this is how a wrestling show is formatted and structure. Beginning, middle, and end. You set the top of the show with, okay, this is what this show is going to be about. You set that in Seg 1. In the middle of the show, you revisit it and something big happens in the storyline. Then you get to the end, your main event, you pay it off. And bro, in between you have all your backstage vignettes, where with every single vignette,

you are building and building and building and building. and the backbone of the show is this a story. Then, bro, within that, once you've got that body, then you got your beast story, you see story, and your D story. But that one storyline, that is the backbone of your entire show. And being that we are creatures of habit, that's the format that people got used to. I think a big thing that wrestling fans don't realize is this is a television show.

Right. And when you're backstage at a television show, there is a script. And I don't think people fully grasp, but there is a several-page script for every single wrestling show. Bro, I say this all the time. And it's kind of like what you said earlier, where they were before Vince Russo, where they were with Russo, Ferra, and where they are after. Okay, bro, there's a big difference between a writer writing a television show and a booker booking a wrestling show.

And let me tell you what the difference is. Bro, when you're a writer, the story comes first and the story then creates the match. So you tell the story first, just like anything on television. You're telling the story first. Everything that happens in that story eventually leads to the match. Bro, when you're a booker and they're usually former wrestlers or people that have been in the wrestling business for 50 years, like a Bruce Pritcher. When you're a booker, you start with the match first. Okay, what two guys would have a great match?

So say, for instance, bro, Kenny Omega and Kenta would have a great match. So as a wrestler or as somebody that's been in the business forever, I'm going to take that match now because the wrestling fans are going to love this match. And now what I'm going to try to do is make some sense out of a story. And, bro, they don't even do that anymore. Now they just book what they think are five-star matches with no story whatsoever. But bro, when you hit the nail on the head, it's a television show. A house show is a wrestling show.

Yeah. This is a television show. You've got to write it like a television. And anybody that goes to their first WWE event realizes that it's not like going to a concert. They're not playing to the people in there. They're playing to the cameras and the people watching at home. That's a huge thing to realize when you go to your first WWE show. No, I mean, bro, you get, you get it.

Everything you're saying is the problem with the numbers today. Bro, the wrestling business has killed the wrestling business. It's nobody else's fault. They've done this to themselves because you keep hearing about Eve. it's evolved bro you you evolve when you progress and bro when you progress that means more people are watching not less they're not evolving in the right way they're well television viewership is down all across the board which doesn't help anybody right no no bro it's absolutely but i'm going to tell you something that, bro, these simple words were the most meaningful words Vince McMahon ever

said to me. Because, bro, you got to remember. I think people forget this. You know, bro, we were up against Monday night football. You know, bro, back then there was some, you know, big time, prime time, you know, shows. Bro, I think people forget there were VCRs back then. You could have taped raw and watch something. I think people don't think there was such a thing. But, bro, Vince McMahon said to me, like when the ratings would come out and if we had stiff competition that night, Vince McMahon would say to me, Vince, if it's good, they'll watch it.

I don't care what was on the other channel. I don't care how good the game was. I don't want to hear any excuses. If it's good, they'll watch. it. That will never change, bro. I just finished binge watching 80 episodes of Breaking Bad in 10 days. What a show. Yeah, because I couldn't stop watching it. There's no reason wrestling can't be that way. There's no reason that in the 2021 world, there's another part of that sentence. If it's good, they'll watch it on YouTube or Facebook or Twitter or whatever. And I think

that that's the difference. I don't need to watch an entire episode of Dynamite. Don't need to watch an entire episode of Raw. I can just watch the little snippets I want on my Twitter feed. I don't believe that's true, Row. And I'll tell you why. Because if it's good, you're anticipating the next episode. You're waiting for that. Now, you're not going to watch it on YouTube. If it airs on Monday, you're not going to, if it's good, you're looking forward to that next episode. It's just our, you know, our television habits are so, like, I barely watch anything on cable now. In fact, the only thing I might watch is wrestling, which is so crazy because 20 years ago, all we had was television. Right, right.

And it's just a different world. Yeah, it's a different world. But, bro, like, there are still shows that I'll watch in the first run. and I will be there when the next episode is on because I want, I just, I just watch the great documentary on HBO with Woody Allen and Mia Farrow. I saw the first episode. I will watch that second episode in real time because that first one caught my interest. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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So the special offer for anybody listening to Insight right now is 10% off your first month. Just go to BetterHelp.com. slash insight. That's BetterHelphelp.com slash insight. I'm so curious. When did bro become a part of your vocabulary? Yeah, bro, it's bad. I don't know, man. Like, you know, bro, there's just the way you talk backstage. Was this a wrestling thing or was this just a Vince Rousseau? Yeah, no, no, no, no.

this definitely came out of wrestling. I wasn't broing anybody before I got an arrest. But I still claim, without a shadow of a doubt, like Paige is 10 times worse than I am. I don't know. I had him on the show recently. You might be outbrowing, Diamond Dallas Page. I don't know about that.

That would be a lot of browing because I think a page will always be the king of the bros. He does, I mean, if one of you guys is the king of the bros, and I guess Matt Riddle might be the actual. King of the Bros. I don't know. And then Hulk Hogan is the King of the Brothers, I guess. Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. Like, do you even realize you're doing it now? No, I don't.

I don't. I don't. It's just part of my vernacular, bro. So this is like how someone might say, um, or ah? Yeah, bro, I used to get Dick Dixie Carter used to yell at me all the time because I would have conversations with her and refer to her as bro. And she used to stop me and yell at me all. the time. I didn't even realize I was doing it. We haven't talked at all about your time in TNA.

I'm really interested in know what you're most proud of in your time in TNA. What I'm most proud of is we were evolving the business, the way it should have been evolved. And what I mean by that, bro, was we were improvving it. When we started doing sports entertainment extreme in TNA. Bro, everybody would be at the building, okay? People didn't even know I was in the state of Tennessee. Okay? How this would work, bro, would be, you know, I, you know, me and Jeff Jarrett would be

writing the show, okay? The night of the show, they don't even know I'm in Tennessee. me and Jeff know when I'm going to hit the ring, but nobody else is smartened up to this. So basically, bro, I would go to the fairgrounds in Tennessee, park at the back entrance, get on the phone with the Harris brothers. They were like Jeff's right-hand man,

they were the only ones that knew. Let the Harris boys know, guys, I'm here. Bro, they would come open the door, for me and I would walk right into that building and nobody on the show knew I was coming. And I would get in that ring, bro, and I'm cutting promos and I'm doing this and I'm doing that and people had to react. There were no scripts. Bro, I'll never forget this.

I'll never forget this. There was an incident, bro, where I came in, nobody knew I was coming. And, bro, it turned into like a brawl. And bro, I wanted people to believe this were real. So I remember it starts getting into a brawl and truth, like, is doing like his play wrestling with me, you know, fake phony wrestling. And I'm like, bro, like, no. bro, for the one moment in my life, I got somehow this gargantuan Samson-like strength.

Bro, I swear to you, I wrap my arms around our truth and threw him down to the mat as hard as I could. I mean, as a 100% shoot, right? So, bro, this thing gets pulled apart and whatnot, and I go back out the entrance. And, bro, the Harris brothers come sprinting around the building. Vince, Vince, you better get your, you know what out of here.

Truth is looking for you. He is going to kill you, bro. He wants your blood. He is going ballistic on there. But we were doing something, bro, that was new and excited. that's why Mike Teney and I had those exchanges. Mike Teney was so good at that. Mike never knew when I was coming.

And Mike was really the only one, bro, who, like, in the moment was able to go, told me, bro, this should have been the direction of the business. Instead of going in that direction, man, bro, they went 100 miles back the other way. Yeah. Why did they not continue on that path? Because I'll be honest with you. I think they were afraid of the unknown. Bro, wrestling, they're very afraid of the organic.

I'm always a fan of, bro, let it go. Let's see what happens here. Let's be organic. Bro, the business in general is very controlling. Bro, you see it now with the promos. Here's your script. You're going to say every single word. bro, when wrestling is organic, it's believable.

But they've gotten so far away from that, man. What was the idea between having impacts go head to head with Raw on Monday night? That was a bad idea, bro. You know, bro, again, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. But, you know, Eric and Hulk at the time really convinced Dixie that we were ready for this. And bro, what I was looking at was, bro, from a financial point of view, we couldn't compete with them. Financially, we could not compete with them. Going head to head with them, I knew was the death nil, but they convinced Dixie, we tried it, and obviously the rest of this history.

That's why, bro, with Tony Kahn's money, he might be able to do that. Bro, T&A did not have that kind of money at the time. I mean, people keep referring to this as the Wednesday night wars. Is this actually a war between dynamite and NXT? Bro, you know who Kevin Dunn is, right? Of course. I will never forget, bro. I was at a raw where in the gist of the Monday night wars.

And bro, like Kevin Dunn would get the ratings before me and Vince. And I'll never forget this, bro, because This puts everything in its perspective. Kevin Dunn walks up to me and Vince at TV. The ratings had just come in. Kevin Dunn said to us, he goes, Vince, I never in my life thought I would see wrestling have over 10 million viewers. You're talking combined here?

Combined. Yeah. 10 million viewers. bro, when I'm looking at one and a half million and you're telling me it's a war, bro, bro, if it's a war, you're throwing

rocks at each other. Bro, we're talking about 10 million people. I don't put what is happening on Wednesday nights anywhere in that league. But I guess though, you know, 20 years ago, American Idol was getting 20 or 30 million viewers on each episode.

Now they're barely getting, I don't even know, six or seven. Television habits have definitely changed. So maybe 10 million then is equivalent to one and a half million now? I don't think so, bro, because, you know, I still follow the ratings. Bro, you've got TV shows out there that are still drawing 10 million people. I mean, you've got TV shows that are drawing 15 million people. You know, you've got your Games of Thrones. You've got shows out there that are still drawing people in the first run. bro listen i just i don't like making any excuses like bro i know what whether i did a raw or or an

impact or a nitro bro if the ratings were down from the previous week i was pissed off at myself i would go through those ratings with a fine to come where did we f up where did we screw up today when that happens it's it's i hear the excuse this was on and that was on and the impeachment hearings. And I'm like, no, bro, like you've, you've got to look at the show. You've, bro, in ratings, you're given minute by minutes. You can see where they tune out. And bro, when, when Ed and I wrote, we let the ratings dictate the show.

If we're looking at these minute by minutes and gold dust hits the ring, and the number goes up, guess what, bro? Now you're going to get more gold dust next week. If so-and-so hits the ring and the number goes down, well, now we start to need to eat. We literally let the people were the ratings. We literally let the ratings control the show. The people were making the decision.

They really were. And with all that said, you've been attached to so many controversial storylines. and I'm really interested to know what you think was the most controversial thing that you wrote. Oh, gosh, bro. Well, bro, I have to be honest because this was a huge change. Bro, listen, you asked me what's the simplest thing that wrestling could do. If I worked for AEW and what, which is never going to happen in a million years. bro, here's the problem with wrestling.

And I talked a little bit about it. If they want to turn the business around, bro, they need to do one thing. Get out of the wrestling bubble and let everything stem off of reality. Reality. Reality needs to be the backdrop of professional wrestling. Not Randy Orton vomiting black ink. reality what is really happening in the world what is really happening in that company what is really happening in the business bro they're for what i think bro they they live 24 seven in that bubble

they're they're so out of touch with reality and that's what they're missing here's a perfect example and bro this goes back 25 years survive a series okay Vince gets punched in the in the eye by Brett Hart. Yeah. Next day, Vince shows up at TV with a black eye. Okay. So now, bro, there is a meeting prior to the show of the inner circle. Everybody I mentioned before, Patterson and Richard and Dunn and all the bigwigs, okay?

I'm in this meeting, bro. And Vince is walking around with a black eye. Now, bro, their instinct was, we're going to sweep this under the rug like it never happened. And bro, I'm letting them talk and I'm just listening. And then finally, I just said, are you people out of your freaking minds? The main event guy punched Vince McMahon into. the face. This will probably never happen again in anybody's lifetime. You guys are going to sweep this under the rug. And bro, while I was saying this, I could always tell when Vince was listening.

This was really the difference between me and everybody else. And I was like, guys, no, Like, we've got to be all over this. And that's when Vince cut the promo. Vince McMahon didn't screw, Brett Hart, Brett Hart. That's when Vince did that. But, bro, I was always the guy there saying, no, bro, like Kurt Angle and Jeff Jarrett. Like, seriously, like, we're going to ignore this? No.

If it's okay with them, this is going to. to be part of our show. But bro, wrestling for some reason, they fear reality. And I don't understand it. So which storyline do you think it is where maybe you push the envelope just a bit too much? Oh, man, bro. I don't think I push the envelope enough. Oh.

bro, the only thing I would tell you now that I regret, but there's a good reason for it. Okay. Bro, when I was in my heyday of the attitude era, I was not a Christian man. And like anything went, when I look back now on The Undertaker and, you know, what was a cross, but we were calling it a symbol because we didn't want to get in trouble, I would have not done that after I became a Christian. Like that I wouldn't have done. But I mean, bro, like outside of that, like,

what do you think is the one thing that most people point their finger at you for? Is it Bash of the Beach? Oh, bro, people point their finger at me for stupid things for, because, bro, in my 20-year career, I think I book three poll matches. So, you know, I get the poll thing all the time. Then, of course, I get the David Arquette thing all the time. Then, of course, I get the putting the belt on myself.

Bro, unless you're a writer, you don't know what the F you're talking about. Because, bro, when you've got two shows a week and a pay-per-view every month, bro, do the math. That's 116 shows. Bro, you're writing 116 shows a year. When you have incidents happen that weren't supposed to happen, David Arquette was not supposed to win the world title. Vince Russo was not supposed to get speared through a cage.

And when you create those moments, bro, what it does is it opens up the creative envelope. Now you can go down all these avenues that weren't open before. And bro, like I said and like you said, when you're writing 116 television shows, you can't keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. So when David Arquette wins the title, holy crap, a Hollywood actor, this wasn't supposed to happen. What are they going to do?

bro, that can now create the next three months of TV for you. People don't understand that, bro, unless you're writing the 116 shows, there's only so much you can do. You've got to open up that creative envelope. I feel like this lit a fire in David Arquette because it's like he's been spending the last 20 years trying to like prove that he deserved this. Look what he's done in independent wrestling now. Yeah, no, he hasn't.

I like, I've had talks with David. I'm like, bro, are you nuts? Like, again, bro, that's the, that's the loud minority. Those weren't the casual fans watching the show back then. Those are the hardcore wrestling marks who, like I said, bro, they believe this stuff is real. And oh, my God, what we did to the tradition of like, come on, man, it's a television show. Do you still consider yourself a former champion? bro you know it's so funny i i people have very short memories bro do you know first of all i won the title

because goldberg speared me through a cage and almost killed me okay so bro i did not beat anybody i almost died winning the title bro do you know on the very next show i relinquished the title because i said, listen, I got nothing else to prove. I beat Booker's square in the middle, one, two, three. Bro, the next show, I relinquished the title. And people still talk about that like I was the WCW champion for 10 years. Bro, I was a WC champion for one show because I almost got killed. Well, people look at your title reign completely differently than they look at Vince McMahon's title reign.

And Vince McMahon gave himself the title as well. Right. Bro, it's like I said, it's a television show. But as I say that, people hate me. It's a television show. That's what it is. How much do you think, if at all, wrestling has evolved in the last 20 years? Oh, man, I think it has evolved for the worst. For the worst. You know, here's what these kids don't understand. This is part of the reason why I started the brain. Okay, this is a big part of the reason why I got into podcasting. Bro, when these guys and gals are done, it is very hard for them to earn money. Bro, what do you do with a resume that says professional wrestling? When you've got people that have done this their whole lives and all of a sudden it's over,

life becomes very difficult for them. bro, I've seen it. I've seen guys broke that you would not believe. You would not believe they did not have any money. So, you know, again, one of the reasons for my podcasting was I wanted to be able to give these guys an outlet. If they have a little show and make a couple of hundred of bucks a month, whatever it is, I wanted to contribute because I know how hard it is for them.

bro i have become the enemy by basically stating to this young talent guys you have a shelf life to make money you've got a shelf life in professional wrestling to make money the more you go out there and do these insane moves and get concussed and fly off of ropes and this and that what you're doing bro is you are now taking that lifespan and you're shortening it and you're shortening it and bro here's what's going to happen this is what they don't want to hear here here's what's going to happen bro you're going to be 38 years old you're not going to be able to wrestle anymore then what the whole idea bro is this is a business you should be looking to prolong your career as long as you possibly can with these crazy bumps that I see,

they're shortening up that life expectancy. And I'm trying to tell them for their own good guys, you don't have to do that. This is a work. You don't have to do that. But by literally caring about their livelihood and their well-being, I've become the enemy. And you know what I say, bro, if I'm the enemy, because I don't want you to be cripple at 28,

then guess what, bro, I'm the enemy. So what do you say to a kid who's breaking into the business at 22 years old? He's got 15, maybe 20 years to make as much money as he possibly can. What do you say to him? Handle it like a business. Bro, I'll never forget this. You know, there are things like that when people said them to me, I was like, And then years and years later, I'll never forget, bro, when TNA first started.

Okay. Jerry Jarrett was a big part of that. Okay. I remember, bro, one of the first couple of shows I saw the payroll. See, bro, people like, for some reason, like, you know, Vince Russo killed WCW. Vince Russo did this. Vince Russo did that. Bro, all I did was write and produce the show.

I didn't know what people made. I had no bearing on what people made contracts. I was never involved in any of this. So at TNA, I happen to see the payroll. Bro, guys were getting paid like $25 bucks a match, $50 a match. And I said to Jerry, Jerry, you can't pay these guys this. Because, bro, as far as I'm concerned, if you're a professional wrestler, every time you step in the ring,

it could be your last match. Sure. Because, bro, if you miscalculate by this much, it's over. And that's why, like, I really feel like every time you step into that ring, you need to be paid well. And I said, Jerry, I said, bro, you can't pay these guys this. He laughed at me. And you know what he said to me?

This is what he said to me, bro. And this is 2002. Yeah. He laughed at me. And he goes, Vince, are you kidding me? These guys would pay us to be on the TV. So what I would tell that 22-year-old kid is, and I think a lot of today's wrestlers have lost side of this.

And I'm going to be honest with you, they've lost side of it because they're marks. I would tell that 22-year-old kid, this is a business. This is a business. You need to handle this as a business. You need to handle yourself as a brand. You need to know you have a very short shelf life. How am I going to stay healthy?

How am I going to make the most amount of money I can? You've got to look at this like a business because here's the problem. 22-year-olds, they don't see the end. Like they think this goes on forever. No, bro, this doesn't go on forever. and the money you're making right now you may need at the end of the road. Bro, when I was working with all these guys, it was all about business. I mean, bro, when you're working with Kevin Nash, you know, Kevin Nash had like a laundry list.

Okay, you want me to do this. It's this much. You want me to, it was a business like guys, they would do whatever you wanted, wanted them to do and they would say okay and what am i getting paid to do this right bro it's it's not that way today bro when i'm seeing these spots in front of no people i'm like what like what are you doing like are you nuts and bro every week this one's out six to 12 months three to five every single day somebody's getting hurt bro this is a business business You got to make as much money as you possibly can.

Is this why three of the biggest names in wrestling, Rock, Sina, Batista, have left wrestling and really not done anything. It's almost like they don't want that wrestling stink on them. Bro, here's what the wrestling business does to you. And like, bro, that's why I'm saying, like, I always have problems with dirt sheet writers. because bro, if you weren't there and you weren't in the thick of it, you'll never understand. Bro, I'm a big baseball fan. Okay.

Every day religiously, I watch the MLB network. Bro, I don't put myself on the same level of John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez. Like, I know I'm watching this as a fan. So like when these guys speak, I know these guys have been in places I'll never be. So at 60 years old, I still listen to every word they say. But bro, here's the problem. There's a lot of psychology within the underbelly of professional wrestling and especially in the WWE.

Bro, you are brainwashed to the point of, bro, without us, you're nothing. You leave here. Your career will be over. You all may. bro, they convince you that if you ever leave that company, you're done. And bro, how many people have we seen leave the company and be successful? I mean, bro, the fact that all of them are giving up their social media accounts with the money, the money they could be making on there without breaking their backs, you know, in a ring,

the fact that they're just giving that up. But the WWA, they have a way of convincing you, bro, without us, you're done. Yeah. But they also have the platform, though. They have the platform to make you a star within that world. Are they making stars? If you're a wrestling fan, you're looking at this going, sure, there's stars there. If you're a wrestling fan, not if you're an executive in Hollywood.

Hollywood making decisions. It's funny. If you were to bump into someone on the street right now, we're out of whatever city you live in. And you said, name three wrestlers. Who do you think they name? John Cena,

the Rock, and The Undertaker. Maybe Hulk Hogan. That's what I'm saying. I mean, that's what I'm saying, man. Yeah. It's an interesting time.

Look, I think it's still exciting that we live in a time now where we can go online and look up literally any match that's ever existed in the history of wrestling, whereas 20, 30 years ago, I had to have taped it on VHS, then traded the tape with you and you traded a tape back to me.

And bro, but here's the part that I don't get. Bro, I make it clear. Okay, bro, as a writer for so many years, bro, everything is subjective. What one person may love, somebody else may hate. I know it's all subjective. The thing to me, bro, that just blows my mind today is I make it clear, bro, with all the shows I do, I am not a fan of today's wrestling.

Okay, the only show I watch now is Raw because I have third parties that pay me to watch Raw. So I watch Raw, I stop watching SmackDown, I stop watching AEW, I stop watching everything else. But, bro, I'm so careful to say, guys, I'm not a fan of today's product. If you like it, enjoy it. Watch it. Knock yourselves out. If that's what you like, bro. I never, bro, tell anybody, stop watching.

I would never do that. If you enjoy it, watch it. But then, bro, I get the attack on social media because, I don't like it. And I'm like, bro, it's not, it's not my cup of tea. Like, if you want to watch it, great, watch it, enjoy it. But you're going to, you know, you're going to cut promos in me and you're going to attack me because I'm not a fan. Like, bro, it's just like, it's, I don't know what's going on anymore.

Bro, I don't like it. If you like it, watch it. When did this shift for you? I mean, there must have been a time when you were working for a wrestling, company and you no longer liked the product that you guys were making. Bro, I'm telling you, there was a time, bro, in TNA. Bro, you got to understand working at WWE, working at WCW with all the great veterans I work with.

Bro, it was all about respect. You know, I respected them as a writer and their craft, as wrestlers and they craft and what they did, they respected me as a writer. It was all about respect. You respected each other. You real, bro, you may have not liked everybody. Everybody may not have like you, but you always respected each other. Sure.

Bro, I can remember significantly. It was, bro, maybe it was about 2008-ish, okay? You know, I work with TNA for 10 years, okay? all of a sudden, bro, I started seeing a fluctuation of a lot of these young guys coming into TNA. Okay? And bro, the first thing I noticed off the bat that was foreign to me. Okay. A lot of these guys, bro, like this was their first stop.

And when, you know, I would get together with them creatively as a writer and a writer and producer, bro, they had the attitude like they knew more about what I did than I would ever know in my life. Like I knew nothing about writing. I knew nothing about producing character developed. They knew more than I'd ever. I started seeing this. I started seeing a lack of respect for people that have been doing this for years. and years and years. And bro, I remember vividly, I was like, I don't, I don't like this. I don't, I don't want to work with these types of individuals that are going to be, you know, very, very disrespectful. And bro, like I said, I go all the way back to 2008 and I remember this. And I remember my attitude was, bro. And I really believe when, when I look at the amazing legends that a

backstage at AEW today. When I look at the Arns and the Tullies and the J.Rs and the Chivani's and Jakes and all these guys, I honestly believe they are at the same exact point that I was back in 2008. Because what happened was, bro, this would start happening over and over and over again. So I took on the attitude of, bro, no problem. Go out there, do whatever you want. to do because I know you're never going to get over. So go ahead, bro.

Go do exactly. Don't listen to me. I don't know anything. Go do exactly what you want to do, but you never go. Bro, I know that's what's taking place at AEW because there's so many guys working at AEW veterans that like know better that have to be seeing what I'm seeing saying, what the. but you'll speak up so much till finally you'll just say, you know what, screw, bro, go do what you want to do.

That's the point I got. And that's, bro, that's literally why I left in 2012. So there were wrestlers in TNA at that time, 08, 09, 10 that could have been huge stars. Had they just like listened a little bit more? Is that what you're saying? I wouldn't say huge, bro. Okay. Because I think there are a lot of, you know, bro, I talked about wanting to be a baseball player.

And like it's 15, 16 years, years old, figuring out, you know, Vince, you know, Don Mattingly's probably a little better than you. Okay. Yeah, you can't hit a 97 mile an hour fastball. Well, bro, somewhere along the line around this time in 2008-ish, and I take great offense to this. bro, I don't know what happened where just anybody can be a wrestler. It's like so many of these people I watch on TV, they had this dream of becoming a wrestler, and now they're on my TV wrestling on prime time.

And in my opinion, they have no reason being there. I don't know how that happened. I remember back in the day, bro, every wrestler that came down that ramp, bro, you knew every wrestler would F you up. Like, you knew, even though you knew it was a work, you'd say, man, if I, I wonder, I wonder what would happen if I got Rick Stauna, like, really pissed off. Like, you know, you knew these guys would kill you. Like, you knew it. bro, I see half of these guys come down the ramp today. And bro, not for anything.

I'm not a tough guy. I'm 60 years old. Bro, I think I could probably take 50%. You're also 6-2, right? I'm 6-2, bro. I'm 6-2. But my point is at some point, like, everybody could be a wrestler. And it's like, no, bro, like you should have to be like, bro,

I still believe you're in the NFL, you're in the NBA, you're an MLB. Bro, you're special. You're special. That's why you're there. Bro, I look at the rosters today on TV. Bro, I'm not seeing a lot of people that I would consider special. I'm seeing a lot of people that look the same. I always think it's strange when someone says I've wanted to be a wrestler my entire life.

And at 15, 16 years old, didn't get a gym membership. Like that, that blows my mind. If you've been watching this your entire life, you know what wrestlers look like. You know how they're built. Before you go to wrestling school, spend some time in the gym. I know. Well, bro, exactly. I mean, that's what I'm saying.

But somehow these people got in the door. And the next thing you know, they took over. And, bro, that's the thing. Casual wrestle. Bro, you talk about TV. bro, when you put on your television, you want to see TV stars. Sure. You want to see stars.

You want to see people that are larger than life. Bro, when you got casual television viewers going on a wrestling show and seeing guys like 150, 160 pounds, five foot something, bro, I'm telling you, that person is sitting at home saying, wait a minute. Like, you know, what happened to Randy Savage? Mr. Per, like all those guys, just like you said, bro, they at least looked the part. I mean, there's obviously exceptions to the rule. Spike Dudley, Mick Foley, like there's exceptions to the rule, but what made Spike Dudley so special is that he was the exception.

Exactly, bro. Why do you think we all remember the one, two, three kid, razor, beating razor? We all remember it, bro, because there was only one, one, two, three kid. There wasn't a of them. That's why, you know, 20 years later, we still remember that. Yeah. I feel like we could talk for another four hours. This has been amazing. You can't talk me four hours because then you get all kinds of heat on you. How can you talk to that guy, bro, for four? I don't want you to get any heat on you. I'm already going to get heat just saying that I'm interviewing you for some reason. But you know what, bro, here's what I don't understand about the heat. I'm telling you, if you love

today's product, watch it. Enjoy it. Revel in it. Buy 10. I don't know what else to tell you, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I enjoy it because you want me to tell you that. I hope that throughout this last hour and 20 minutes, people have seen a different side of you because I think that like we talked about the start of this interview, people dislike the Vince Russo character and don't know where that character ends. Bro, you know what it is in wrestling too? I'm telling you. I am telling you. That's your number two catchphrase, by the way. I'm telling you.

Well, bro, I'm telling you this. Bro, you know in wrestling, you've been around wrestling enough. Everything's a work, okay? Everybody's working, everybody. Okay? Bro, the truth does not work in professional wrestling. When you're a guy that's just going to tell your truth and what you think with, you know, no political undertones or positioning

or when you're a guy that just tells the truth, bro, it does not work in wrestling. wrestling. It just, it does, you're going to find yourself on the outside looking in. Who are some people that we can hear on the brand? Oh, man, bro. I have two platforms, and they all have completely different shows. I got Rousseau'sbrand.com. And then I got Patreon.com forward slash Rousseau TWC. Gosh, bro, I always forget somebody because there's so many. There's Stevie Ray of Harlem heat. There's the disco inferno. There's Stevie Richards. There's Shane Douglas, there's just incredible, there's Big Vito, there's Taylor Hendrix, there's the beautiful people, there's Shane Douglas, there's Dutch Mantel, there's the great Kevin Sullivan, there's

Ben Hamin. I always forget somebody, bro, because we're constantly constantly, I think you got everybody. I hope so, bro. I try to memorize it because it constantly, constantly grows. I really appreciate you hanging out with me for this. This was so enlighten you wanting to talk to me because, you know, a lot of people, you know, like I consider you a baby face, a big fan favorite, a nice guy. I try not to be too much of a heel. Yeah, no. And you could get in trouble by talking to somebody like me. So I appreciate extending the Alv Ranch. But, bro, again, I don't know how to be any more clear if in 2021 wrestling is your cup of tea, enjoy it. This is not an olive branch at all.

This is, I think you are a fascinating human being and you were the most successful when wrestling was the most successful. And I want to figure out, how did you do that? Yeah. Bro, you want to know how I did it. This is the part, bro, that really pisses me off. Because, bro, when I'm talking about low ratings, bro, you will never hear me like rip, rip creative and that's a horrible idea or that's i i may laugh it's bro i'm gonna laugh at randy

orton i'm sorry like i'm gonna laugh at that but bro i'm i'm never like that because i was on that side and i know how subjective it is but here's the part that pisses me off and here's the difference when i watch raw every monday night what pisses me off bro from a not not the boys in the ring because they'll always give you a thousand percent and And the women, not that. What pisses me off, bro, is the lack of effort creatively. The lack of effort. Bro, I know what it took us on a weekly basis to get those ratings.

I knew, bro, we looked over every script with a fine tooth go over and over and over. If there was something that wasn't acceptable, we took it off. if there was something we've seen a million times before, we took it off. Bro, when I tell you, our blood, sweat, and tears went into every script. I know what it took. Bro, it took me putting my family on the back burner. It took everything I had. I had, bro, I swear to God, when we used to leave the building every night,

and I used to travel with Vince, it would be Vincent, Shane and me and Ed. Me and Ed would sit in the back. Vince McMahon would turn to me after every TV and you know what he would ask me? Vince, did I get it all? Meaning, did he get everything? And I told him every time, yes. And that's what pisses me off today, bro, when I see the lack of effort. When I see a 20-minute match just because you've got to fill three hours of television time.

Bro, Ed and I wrote nine, three-hour nitros. We didn't have a problem, bro. And, bro, my God, the WWE has an endless roster. And, bro, we didn't do it by having 20-minute matches. But you've got to work. I mean, bro, our whole philosophy was we didn't care what the rating was on this week's show. Next week has to be better. It's got to be better next week.

I don't know how these writers and Vince and Bruce and whoever else is in the inner circle, bro, I don't know how they look at that show Monday when all is said and done and they look at each other and say, you know what, we did the best job we possibly. I don't know how that's all I know. Bro, I don't know if it's an Italian thing. If my name is on something, just like podcasting, Rousseau, Brand.com. If my name is on something, bro, you're going to get 120% and you're not going to get 50. I think that's a perfect place to end this. Vince Rousseau, such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you, bro. I enjoyed it very, very much. Vince Rousseau. Ladies and gentlemen, I feel like I cut that interview like four hours short because, man, that guy can tell a story. It was such a pleasure to share this conversation with Vince Rousseau. You can, of course, check out Vince podcast. Wherever you're listening to this one, it's called Vince Rousseau's The Brand. Make sure to give him a subscribe or a follow. And hey, perhaps you could do the same for insight as well. Let me know what stood out for you the most from this one. Tag us on social media. Take a screenshot. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Vince is at the Vince Rousseau. He's very outspoken. But that's always who he's been. And he's been unapologizing.

about it. So I'll leave you with this quote from the late, great Dr. Seuss. Perhaps you've heard this before. But maybe you need this reminder. Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Be great. Be grateful. We'll see you on the next one for some more inside. mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987.

I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.