Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Why Muhammad Hassan left wrestling, plans to be WWE Champ, his job as a Junior High principal

Episode Date: July 23, 2020

Muhammad Hassan (Marc Copani) talks to Chris Van Vliet from his home in Syracuse, NY. This is a very special interview because Marc has rarely done any interviews since he left wrestling in 2005. He talks about being the very controversial character Muhammad Hassan, the real life fear he caused people, his release and why it caused him to leave wrestling, the plans for him to beat Batista and become the WWE Champion at SummerSlam in 2005, his current job as a junior high principal, the graphic novel he created with Shad Gaspard called "Assassin and Son" and much more! Subscribe now and support the show by supporting our sponsors! BetOnline  - Head to http://betonline.ag and use the promo code BLUEWIRE for your free welcome bonus! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's a great question. Look at you, man. What's the powerful questions. This is the Chris Van Vleet Show. Chris Van Vleet Show. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Vibb! Well, here we go. Welcome back to another audio adventure on the Chris Van Fleet Show.

This episode is brought to you by Bet Online. And I love when we do two episodes in a week like this. I hope you like it too because I think there's going to be a lot more two episode weeks coming up in the next bunch of weeks and months because there's a lot of interviews to get to. But this one,

oh man, this one with Muhammad Asan is so good. He doesn't really do a lot of interviews. I mean, he's only done a handful of them since leaving WWE, and that was 15 years ago. And by the way, I have to give a huge shout out to my friend Sean Ross Sapp

from Fightful.com who made this happen. SRS. He connected me with Mark Koppani. That's Mohammed Hassan's real name. He connected me with Mark said, you guys need to do an interview. And boom, here we are. I also have to give a huge shout out to everyone who has left to review on Apple Podcasts. So if you haven't yet, please take a second to subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on. And if you're listening on your iPhone right now, please take a second to take it out of your pocket. I know it's in your pocket. I know. I see it sitting on the counter right there.

I don't know. I know most people listen to podcast as they commute to work. I also know not a lot of people are commuting to work right now. So where are you listening? I guess gyms are open in some places. People are probably still going for runs. People are probably still walking their dogs. Maybe just putting this on while they work from home. Really went off on a tangent there.

But thank you to everyone who's left a review. And big shout out to Andy with no facial hair for this review. sorry to hear about your lack of facial hair, Andy. He titled this, Chops. I typically don't write reviews, but I was watching your Chops video at Sean Spears Flatbacks Wrestling School, and you totally deserve the five-star rating. I thought Breezy's first chop broke your sternum.

Yeah, so did I. Oh, yeah, you're a great interviewer. Keep up the great work. Well, thank you, Andy, with no facial hair. Yeah, that first chop from Tyler Breeze. Yeah, it stung a little bit. They all stung. Although after like the first five chops,

I just feel like my chest was numb. Starting to heal though. Really starting to, no, it took like six days to heal, but we're good. So thank you for that review. And thank you to you for being here because this interview might be one of my favorite interviews I've done all year.

And it's crazy to think that Muhammad Hassan's run in WWE was only seven months long. because he left such an indelible mark on wrestling as a whole and certainly on the wrestling scene in 2005 because the booze. Oh man, the booze. His entrance theme coming on got so much heat. I don't think there's another entrance theme in the history of wrestling, maybe right to censor, but that wasn't really an entrance theme. That was just loud, annoying, beeping. But yeah, I don't think there's another entrance theme in wrestling that got this much heat. We talk about the massive push that he received pretty much from day one and how he was on the path to win the WWE championship.

Then the London terrorist bombings happened and he got released not long after that. He's now working as a junior high school principal and the graphic novel that he wrote with Shad Gaspard is available now with all the proceeds going to. Shad's family. So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mark Opani, aka Muhammad Hassan. Well, Mark, thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you for having me. You've got such a fascinating story. I'm so excited to dive into this. How was everything going in your world right now? Good. Not bad. Well, I guess it's a relative term. It's kind of crazy because I'm a principal

at a junior high school. And with the whole COVID-19 closure, we're talking about reopening schools and how we're going to do that safely with 550 seventh and eighth graders, while wanting to run up and hug and touch each other and keep everybody six feet apart. And so other than the challenges of trying to plan something like that for the next couple of months, it's going really well, though. I imagine when you work in education, summer's supposed to be a time when you kind of calm down, relax a little bit. I can't imagine there's much relaxing going on this summer. Not as much. It's been a lot of sleepless nights. It's stressful because you want to, you know, protect the safety of your kids and your staff at the same time. You know, it's better to get them

in school and in person for instruction. But the challenges of doing that safely, you know, given what's happening in the outside world, it can, can outweigh the positives of that. So it's just a delicate balance right now. What does the kids call you at school? Mr. Capani. Okay. I just remember calling like everybody that was an authority, sir. I don't get the sir so much from the kids once in a while, but no, usually, I don't even mind Capani. I know some people think it's a little informal, but I don't, you know, it doesn't really bother me. I think it's more of a comfort thing. If kids are comfortable enough to call me that, then I'm okay with that. I was an assistant principal at the high school, most kids called me Capani. And I think it drove the principal there a little crazy.

But it didn't bother me at all because they were comfortable enough to call me that. And it was always respectfully, never disrespectfully. And I've been called much worse in my life, you know. I guess your kids weren't even alive when you were in WWA, were they? No. That's funny. If I was teaching, there were a couple that were still, that they were young. But I don't think any of them remember me from watching me firsthand. I think their parents or cousins or uncles and then maybe from. watching YouTube is how they would know me now.

You still look like you're in great shape. What's the secret? A lot of hard work, man. There is no secret. I run three miles at a time, four or five mornings a week. I work out five days a week with weights. I watch everything I eat.

I calculate everything I use in My Fitness app. I use that too. I am very religious about it. I calculate everything I eat and make sure I'm staying within my goals and I monitor my weight. I mean, I love the science of it. I always have. I used to write down my calories when I was in college

before they had phones and apps way back in the Stone Age. I would write everything down and calculate it by hand. It's something about the science and the balance of it. It goes really well with my personality. But I would say now I work out much harder now at 40 than I had to when I was 25 in the WW. I didn't have to do cardio back then. I could eat whatever I want.

You know, I was in the ring eight hours a day too in OBW, so that burned a ton of calories. But now I have to, you know, be very careful with what I eat in my advancing age because it is not kind to me anymore. Without getting too nerdy and too technical here, what's your macro split look like? No, 40, 40, 20. Okay. That's great.

40 protein, 40 carbs, 20% fat. Yeah. So everyone that's listening right now, this is the secret to look like this. Yeah. And consistency. I don't, I take two days off a week, but even on my day off, one of them I run. And I don't really cheat too often. I'm like OCD about it.

It's probably not healthy, but I like can't, you know, like I look and I'm looking at the phone and I get anxious and nervous and like, I really want this ice cream right now. And, you know, I feel like when you record it, you're accountable to it. And I think it's that accountability that kind of is very helpful for me anyway. So I'm honest about it. Well, I think the biggest thing about this is you're accountable to yourself. And I think that accountability is such an important thing. Like, let's say you want to lose 20 pounds and you tell this to one of your friends. And then they see you shoving donuts in your face that can be like, I thought you said you wanted to lose weight here.

That's such a good point because, yeah, when you tell somebody that you have a goal, I remember when I first, before wrestling, I remember telling people I want to be a professional wrestler. And the fact that I told people that, just like you said, it made me feel like I was a. accountable to that now and I didn't want to seem like I was full of crap. A couple years ago, I mean two, three years ago now, I was up to 240 pounds almost. And that's when I decided that I needed to start doing cardio. That's when I realized that I could no longer eat whatever I wanted because I used to be able to do that. And now I'm at about 210.

So I'd say I've lost 30 pounds in the last few years, healthily. But it's cardio and it's not a secret. You have to burn more than you take in, and that's how you lose weight. Does your time in WWE feel like an entirely different lifetime ago? Most of the time it does, and then I'll like see something. I'll see an old match. I'll see, you know, Instagram or Facebook, and you're kind of scrolling up, and somebody will post a picture.

And it's almost like I can just be transported back to that moment. And I can remember watching it or I can remember being there or being in it. And it feels a little bit more present than it normally does. But in my daily life, day to day, it feels like an entire lifetime ago. Did you have any plans? Obviously, your wrestling career ended pretty quickly, pretty suddenly. Did you have any plans for what you were going to do after your WWB career? No, I didn't.

Not really. I didn't know if I wanted to continue to wrestle. And it wasn't, I mean, now I feel like there's a lot of places to wrestle. Back then, there really weren't as much. many options, especially when you had been in the position that I was in. I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an actor, be a writer, be a producer, or be a teacher. I had no idea what I was doing at 25 when my WWM career was over. TNA, I guess, would have been an option. Did they ever reach out to you? I don't think they did. I didn't reach out to them either. I needed to take some time off,

and then that time off kind of expanded to a lot of time off, and then it was me not going back. But yeah, TNA, I think, was the only other option on the table back then. It's just your career is so interesting because when you look at it, I mean, you're one of the greatest heels of all time, which is just incredible to think about because your run was like seven months. I wouldn't say greatest deals of all time. There are a lot greater heels than me,

maybe on a relative basis for these seven months. But I also had a great gimmick. I was pushed to the moon. I worked with some incredible veterans who wanted me to succeed, who wanted me to do well because they wanted to make money with me. So I was very fortunate for the position that I was put in. And I was with Sean who was great. Sean was a heat magnet. I would not have gotten the heat that I got without Sean.

So I was very fortunate to be put in the position that I was in. And I think that's why the character did so well for that seven months, because it was a character that people loved to hate. It was genuine hate, genuine heat. You know what else was the heat magnet? It was your entrance theme. Yeah, it interrupted everybody. I thought that was great. I love that entrance music. Every time I hear it, I still kind of get a little bouncy. It's super catchy. I don't know where they got it from. They made it, but it is super catchy. I heard a techno remix of it once. It was awesome. I watched your first promo the other day as I was getting ready to speak with you. And the poise that you had at that young age to deliver that promo as the crowd is chanting what,

I thought was like it was a veteran thing that you were doing out there. Walk me through before you go through the curtain. What's going through your mind? You're about to interrupt Mick Foley for that promo. I feel sick. I think I felt sick every time. I'd like to zone out a little bit. Headphones on, just kind of just try to tune everything else out.

And then you get into grill position. and you're figuring out how much time you have, and if there's any changes, anything that's coming up. My character was super easy because if I ever got lost with what I was saying, all they had to do was stop, and they would start chanting USA or what. And I can't remember who told me that, but that was a trick I learned pretty quickly.

But heading out for that first promo, I could still remember, I think it was in Huntington, Alabama. I felt sick. I felt like I was to throw up. I was incredibly nervous and anxious, but pumped at the same time. And then once you hit the curtain and once you go out there, once you start talking, it's like the nerves dissipate. And suddenly all you have left is the excitement.

And it was very easy with Mick Foley, who was amazing. It was really easy to get into character and stay in character. And I can still remember walking towards the ring. And I remember once I started thinking about it, I almost get back into character. And I start feeling what I felt as I was delivering that promo. But it was never anything that I got comfortable doing. I think I was comfortable in the ring. But, man, that time before a match or before a promo, it's intense for me.

It was nerve-ragged. Do you remember what it was like when you were pitched this idea? I mean, I don't know if everybody knows that you're not Arab. I think that you playing in Arab is a very fascinating thing. I remember when I was pitched it. I remember my character in OVW was very different. I was Mark Magnus. I was this year's model.

My theme music was Your So Vane, you know, kind of like a Mr. Perfect take on that. And I think Arne Anderson pitched me the character. And it was Vince's idea. And they pitched it. We didn't really know exactly what we were doing with it. And we tested out different ideas of the Arab character. I remember a house show where we talked about. controlling oil prices.

They didn't really know exactly where they were going until they finally settled on. What started out is just a brilliant idea of this American, this Arab American, who was treated differently given the circumstances that were out of his control. But when it was pitched to me, it was, I always learned from Danny Davis and Rip Rogers and Jim Cornett, the guys, the old school guys in OWW, that you don't turn to anything down, not that I ever would have. but to be overly prepared and make yourself, make yourself inexpendable. And so I remember hearing it. I thought it was great.

I thought we could do it. And I thought it was going to be a lot of heat. So you were in as soon as you heard this idea. Yeah, I never said no. I never even thought no. I mean, and this was also me after a couple years in OBW watching guys get called up and be sent back down and watching guys trying to get called up. This was me finding out that I'm going to have a heat magnet character and get a huge push.

And at the very least, just beyond the show, which was always my goal. I mean, I was, no, I was ecstatic. I was going to be on the show. I mean, I was going to be on Raw. I was going to be on SmackDown. It didn't matter. I was going to be just be on the road with the WWE, which was amazing. You weren't going to have to live in Louisville anymore.

No, and I liked Louisville. Louisville, though, was a great place to live. All my friends lived in Louisville at the time. time. But yeah, no, I was going to be traveling. And that was just so exciting. It was just everything that I had spent years working for. So when you were pitched the idea, did you instantly know that you were going to have Sean with you? I think so. I think that was always the idea was they're going to bring in this guy who speaks Farsi because Sean was doing a gimmick. Sean was like 12 at the time. He was watching, I think he's like five years younger than me. So I was what,

23, and so he was like 18 at the time, and he was doing like the magic carpet gimmick, and he was playing up the Arab, he's actually Persian, he's Iranian, he was playing that gimmick up, and I'm pretty sure the idea was they were sending Sean down to be my manager. I'm not sure if that was right when I was pitched, but it was shortly after. I was the OBW heavyweight champion. I lost the belt, which was really cool. I lost it to Nick Dinsmore and Johnny Jeter simultaneously. They both did a double German and pinned me.

And Johnny Jeter was my best friend at OVW and Nick Dinsmore was my trainer. So it was a really cool way to lose the title. My character became distraught. And I think the hardest part for me was I had to disappear for like four months off of OVW television. I really wouldn't. And Jimmy Cornett believes in K-Fave. So I couldn't really go around the arena to sneak in. I couldn't go to house shows anymore.

And for somebody who at the time, that was my life and those were my friends. It was like the hardest part I remember is being gone. And when I came back, I came back as like this reborn Arab character. And that's when we just played with it a little bit. I don't think I was an OWW as Muhammad Assam long, maybe a month or two. And then I got called up and started doing how it shows with Sean. And you completely lived this gimmick. Like you were wearing the headdress out in public, right?

Yeah, I had to wear the whole get up in public. And it's not really funny. But at the time, it was serious. I mean, we were, what was this, 2004? We were just a few years really removed from 9-11. And I remember a few instances. One, I remember in San Francisco. I can't remember the name of the hotel.

Sean and I were on the path walking from the parking lot to the hotel entrance. And a lady was walking towards us. And we had the full gimmick on it, you know, and the glasses. And, you know, I made my suit. and 230 pounds at the time. So we looked intimidating. And she took her daughter off the path and walked by us like five feet away. I mean, there's plenty of room for us on that path.

But it was the, she was scared. And then one time we were on the plane, Sean and I, and we were sitting towards the front. And I might have been Shelton. Somebody came up and told us that towards the back of the plane, people were calling their families to tell them that they love them. Oh, my God. So there were some times where people really were,

there were people were really frightened. And honestly, it made playing the character pretty easy because the things that you feel when you're dressed like that and you're out in public and you see how people treat you. And that's how people treated Sean. I've said it before. It became kind of a joke.

And then it kind of got annoying because it would hold us up. But Sean was randomly searched. you know, seven out of ten airports. But feeling that and being exposed to that as a non-Arab, it was not hard to get into character and feel anger towards Americans and some outrage, how unfairly people are being treated for things that were out of their control. They had nothing to do with.

And these are American citizens who paid taxes, who obeyed the law. So that was one of the brilliant things about the character. is he was right in his feeling these unjust attitudes, and it was easy for me to get into it. Well, it's ironic, if you listen to your promos, especially now, 15 years later, it's ironic that people are booing you for speaking the truth. Like, nothing you're saying is actually healish at all. I think he'd be applauded today. If I went out there and said those things today, I think I would get a standing ovation because it was the truth. I mean, it was how people felt in this country. We were reading about it in the news. It was unfair. It was unjust. Arab Americans,

Muslim Americans, people were being lumped together as if everybody was a terrorist because they were from that origin, from that nationality. So it was the truth. It nothing of what we were saying, I thought, especially at the very beginning, the character did start to change. But at the beginning, I think people hated that character so much because he was exposing their prejudice that they wanted to deny. That's a really interesting way to put it. Now, what's it like when you're walking through an airport? You are American, yet you're being treated like you're an Arab American.

Well, back then, yeah, it was, again, it was, I don't want to say infuriating. I think it was sad. I think that it was discouraging. And, you know, I'm Italian American, but my grandparents were immigrants to this country. It was discouraging to think that in the 50 years since my grandparents or 60 years at the time had come to this country. We hadn't really changed too much. We hadn't really come really far. We're now just treating different groups of people the way we treated Italians back then or the Irish.

You know, our country has a pretty long history of xenophobia with any new population that comes in with any new immigrant population that comes into the country. So it was just like I said, it was a little discouraging and it was sad. to feel that way. I mean, your heat, I feel like could really boil over into something else. Did you ever get death threats? Not that were brought to my attention. I mean, I might have. They did it.

People were still pretty smart. You know, at that time, people, for the most part, understood that it was a character and it was a character that they loved to hate. And some people, I probably thought that the character was, inappropriate or over the line and they looked at me as the one delivering that message. But I never really got any immediate death threats. We had one instance where we almost got into a group of young men, I think it was Australia, who were Muslim, who were upset at us for playing Muslims on TV. Wow. And that was probably the closest we ever got into it with anybody

physically. And luckily, we had all the boys with us. I can't remember exactly what was going on. But we were out, we were out drinking and they took exception of that because Muslims don't drink. And so they were more upset at a non-Muslim playing a Muslim, I think. That was the only time I really felt like a threatened. Like there was some direct heat towards me for what I was doing. Did you ever have a moment where someone was getting upset with you and you just had to go, hey, I'm actually from New York? Well, maybe.

But nothing, nothing serious. I can't remember how I handled that. We ended up talking to the guys. I know that had nothing ended violently. We ended up talking to them. But no, nothing that I can remember. And most people started to figure out that, you know, Capani and this was, you know, there were a lot of smart marks back then.

And there was the internet. And so people knew for the most part that I wasn't. But we would actually be legitimately nervous like traveling down south in the middle of the night, you know, Sean and I, because just the culture and the climate of the country. at the time post 9-11. It was a little frightening, you know, being anybody with color in certain areas. I mean, obviously a lot has changed in the last 15 years, but not everything has changed. Do you think that you could still play this character now in 2020? I don't think I could. I know there's been some different versions of the character

that have been, but I don't think I could. And I don't think the character could be done the way that it was done 15 years ago, I think it was insensitive. It became very insensitive towards Muslim Americans and Arab American people. The way that the character changed from being this Arab American who was upset at the unjust treatment of his people to a more radicalized Arab and Muslim young man who was lashing out violently. I don't think that that would be appropriate at this time. And I don't think it would be fair to portray any Arab American or Muslim American in that way. So I don't think the character would work, at least in that capacity anymore. Some version of it, maybe, but not that version. Do you ever wonder what might have happened to your

character, had the bombings in London not happened? Because that was, you know, that was the critical thing that caused your character to be taken off TV. I think it would have lasted for a little bit, but I think ultimately there would have been something else. We were really starting to push the envelope and we were really starting to blur the lines, especially what was happening around the world. Like you said, the London bombings was the now in the coffin, but we had started to push the envelope and that's what the WWE does. I mean, they always do. They get a character, they get heat, and they push it and take it as far as they can because that's what makes money. But I think that eventually something else would have happened. I don't think that character would have lasted longer

than another year. And the country was starting to change. You know, that that was a time where we started to change into more of what we are now. So I don't think it would have lasted much longer. Would you, do you think you still would have stayed on TV if that thing with the undertaker and the masked men hadn't happened to correspond with the London bombings? If you had just been doing your normal thing week to week and the London bombings happened, do you think you would have been able to continue? I think so for a little while, again, until we started to push it a little too far.

But it was the masked men that kind of pushed it over the edge. There was a mask meant it was treating Davari as a martyr. It was carrying him out martyr style. Yeah. It was everything about the character that was starting to really draw heat with media, with Muslim American groups. And eventually it started to, it started to change this heat from this genuine heat that the fans really love to hate the character to something that became a bit more,

a little more political. call. Did you realize how quickly you'd be given a push? Like your character starts working, but then you got a push like almost instantly. I knew it at the time. Yeah. I don't know how much. I mean, I knew it at the time. I don't think I knew how much until years later. When you look back, you don't see that happen too often now. Even some of the guys who get monster pushes early on, I don't think they start with such a monster push. Like I didn't mean, my first time I appeared, I was with Mick Foley. You know, and within a second. seven-month span. I'm working Sean Michaels, Chris Jericho,

with Steve Austin, with Hulk Hogan, WrestleMania. I mean, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't watch wrestling that much anymore, but I don't think anybody's ever gotten a push like that in the last 15 years. That was, and it was because of the character. It was because that was an easy character to make money with. That was a character than any babyface wanted to go against because it was a heat magnet. I mean, you know, you go out there and it doesn't matter who you are. You're getting cheered because I just want to see me get my ass kicked. So that was a character that anybody would want to work with. So again, I was fortunate.

I mean, Undertaker, Kane, Bistista, Big Show. I mean, I need to seriously make a list because I get asked that question. And I feel like I leave people off because, man, that list of people that I got to work with in such a short amount of time is so extensive. There's only one person who I never got to work with that, of course, I would have loved to work with. And John Cena I got to work with The Rock. The Rock is the only person because he wasn't wrestling at the time. Yeah.

When you look at that amazing list of all these people that you worked with, did anyone have trouble agreeing to put you over? No, not that I know of. Not all of them put me over either. Sure. No, not that I know of because building a program with a character like that is going to draw and it's going to make money. And everybody that I worked with were professionals. Those guys are professionals and they are veterans. Sean Michaels put me over.

Chris Jericho did. They're professionals. They're veterans. They know what it's all about. They don't have the egos where they have to win matches like that. Those were the guys. And those are the easiest guys for me to go to for advice because they were not intimidated or threatened by the push I received or the character or me at all. So they gave me honest and excellent advice. Triple H was another one because they're not threatened by my position. Those guys are the top of the game. So, but no, they, all of those, everybody that I just listed were consummate professionals

and they really get it. So they had no problem putting me over as long as we made money. All right. Let's just take a quick pause from this interview to thank our sponsor, Bet Online, because sports are coming back and so are your chances to bet on your favorite sports teams and events. Major League Baseball is finally kicking off this week, and there's no better place to start wagering than our exclusive partners bet online. Check out all the odds, futures, and props to bet on, and it's all available 24-7. On the entertainment side of things, Floyd Moneymeyweather

joins the bet online team to bring you a brand new segment called The Ice is Right. Floyd talks all about his jewelry and gives you the chance to bet on the cost of his bling to win some great prizes. Visit betonline.ag for all your odds and up-to-date sports news. Remember to use the promo code Blue Wire to receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo code Blue Wire, all one word, B-L-U-E-W-I-R-E. Bet Online, your online, wagering experts. You're self-aware enough now to realize the opportunity that you had when you entered WWEs. So with that in mind, what kind of advice would you give to someone who's coming in and is getting a mega push right now? Hmm. I think you've got to lean on your veterans. I think you've got to keep your mouth shut,

and I think you've got to learn. You also do have to be aware enough to know what's good for you and your character, but I think that in the WWE, you're surrounded by such amazing talent. And it's not even just the guys who have been there for 20 years, that if you're not there in the arena, you know, when it opens and you're not staying to the end of the last match, then you're really missing an opportunity. I mean, if you're in that position, then why not put the effort in to be the best that you could possibly be? I've just, I think it's interesting that you leave WWE and really don't wrestle again until, you know, a few indie matches recently here. What was going through your mind when you got your release from WWE? What were you?

you what were you going to what was you what were you planning on doing i don't i don't really think i had a plan um i think that after everything that it happened um it was i don't think that i had really protested at the time but i think it was such a huge wet down and i was so heartbroken by everything that had happened um the ups and the downs i think that i avoided anything having to do with wrestling to avoid that feeling. And so when I got released, I didn't really have a plan to continue to build off of my fame as Muhammad Asan or to wrestle other places.

I wanted to do something completely different. There was talk of you maybe just being a character that just appeared on paper views, from what I understand. Did that have any legs to it? Was that something that was even looked into? Yeah, maybe a little bit. but, I mean, the way that you sell matches, you can't really do that. I mean, I'm not the undertaker.

I'm not just coming back for WrestleMania, you know. So you would need my character to build heat and to build matches and stories. So maybe a little bit, but I don't think it was anything serious. So when you're taken off a TV because Spike TV and UPN, you know, don't want the character on there, were you just thinking in your mind like this is inevitable? I'm eventually going to get released now. Yeah. I wasn't sure when.

They gave me some time. but yeah I mean I knew I was going to get released I didn't I don't think and I don't think that there was any plans to send me back to OVW which I don't think I would have wanted to do at the time because it would be hard to erase that character I mean so it'd be hard to get pushed to the moon like we were just talking about and then come back with an entirely new character it usually doesn't happen that way usually you have this character that really doesn't do well this gimmick that doesn't really fly and then you go back you get repackaged and you come up and you strike gold it rarely I don't think if ever happens in reverse. So, I mean, everybody's seen the reports that if everything had gone the way it was supposed to go, you were supposed to win the championship, the WWB championship from Batista at SummerSlam. Was that something that was actually told to you? It was, but I don't know if it was told to me after or at the time.

I know my memory on it's a little fuzzy, but it had to have been because I remember it was kind of supposed to be the big affute of the country that the Arab defeats the hometown boy in the nation's capital because Batista is from there. But as in anything in wrestling, that could have changed. I mean, that could have been the plan and that could have changed within that month or whatever span it was to get to SummerSlam. So who knows? So you could have possibly won the WWE championship without ever winning the Intercontinental or the U.S. title or any of the other mid-card titles. I think I actually won the Intercontinental title for like 15 seconds. And it was reversed.

You're telling Benjamin, right? Yes, I think that counts. I think that should count in the books. I'm not sure how it goes down, but I think I might actually have the briefest intercontinental title reign in the history of the WWE. So I'm in the record book somewhere. My apologies, yes, my apologies, yes.

You're a 15-second champion. But you would have been in the record books as the youngest WWB champion. Yeah, yeah, 15 days, I think, younger than Randy. So that would have been great. What ifs and what ifs? but, you know, that is not the way life works. You know, you can't make plans like that. So you get taken off TV pretty quickly.

You're going from, you know, traveling from city to city. You're on TV every single week. And then boom, just like that, it's taken away. What happens then? There's a huge crash. I mean, it was a huge letdown. It took a few years for me to actually recover, I think. I ended up moving to Los Angeles after I went from,

from D.C. to Los Angeles after my last match, I started feeling my way through Los Angeles. I had originally started acting, just auditioning for smaller roles. I got really passionate about writing, so I started writing some original screenplays. I rewrote a couple screenplays, got involved with some minor production. I really liked the back behind the scenes of films and small films. It was down there that I ended. up writing a screenplay with Shad Gaspard, which is now a graphic novel. It's actually a comic book

by Scout Comics, and that was something that I wanted to talk with you about today. We spent years writing that screenplay, and that was another thing, ups and downs, and we had almost got it made into a film, and then it kind of took a break for a couple years, and then Shad came back to me and had this idea that he wanted to turn into a graphic novel. If anybody knew Shad, what Shad wanted to do, Shad is going to do. So at the time, I had actually moved back home, and I was living back in Syracuse, working nights at UPS because I had bills to pay. I didn't make that much money in my seven months.

And I was put myself through school to become a teacher. And so I did not have time. I mean, I was 16 hours a day going full-time school, full-time work. But Shad, as he always did, was able to convince me to start to put this into a different template so we can turn it into a graphic novel. And so we worked on that and we were able to get the graphic novel. Shad actually produced it himself. So once we had it written frame by frame and we turned the screenplay into this, you know, this different version of the script, Shad then went out and found a letterist. He found the colorist and found Eddard, who's the guy who drew it. And Shad

produced the book, which was then picked up by another comic book company. So that was a huge celebration for us. Lo and behold, that never goes anywhere. So years later, Chad is out, and he is, Shad is one of the best self-promoters that I ever met. Chad was always selling, always marketing, always thinking a few steps ahead. He was able to sell the project to Scout Comics, who was for this small comic book company from Florida, but they're awesome. They're just a great group of people to work with. And so, unfortunately, well, the comic was supposed to be released in April, and it was a big

deal for us because our comic was in that Diamond National Catalog. It was finally in there. It made it. We had like 3,000 pre-orders for April. And then COVID happened, so they delayed the release. And then in May, Shad tragically passed away. And I think everybody knows the story of Shad and heroic actions that unfortunately led to his death. So Scout, who, like I said, they're just amazing to work with. Scout has this idea, James Haake, who's the president at Scout, gets a hold of me with this idea to release early a edition, just the first copy, just the first book, but a tribute edition for Shad. And this is that. Wow. Yeah, hold that right up there. Assassin and Son. Wow. Then you can get it at scoutcom.

I want to sell these out because all the proceeds for this go to Shenzhen and family. All right, great. Well, I'll put the link down below in the description and in the pin comment, scoutcomics.com. Yep. And so the original first book is going to be released in stores in November. And then volume one will follow shortly after, which is the first 90 pages. It was like the first small story, a story of the entire larger story. And then the next few volumes will follow. So this is this was a project that we were both passionate about. It's a great story. It is just a kick-ass story. It's kind of a take on lone wolf and cub, and then we kind of infused our own influence into it, but it turns into this story of this, this assassin at the top of his game,

who has given up all hope in his life that finds redemption in a woman, and it's taken from him, but he's left with a child, which is like, again, it's a take on the lone wolf and cub, an old Japanese movie. But throughout the story, it has the character. is just this beautiful art where his life is about vengeance and he knows. And there's this, there's a lot of biblical influence that's laced throughout because we really wanted to drive home the point of this man knows he's going to hell. But before he does, he is going to do two things. He's going to make sure his son doesn't follow his path. And he's going to bring as many bad people down with him. And it's a multicultural story. It was like a love letter to New York City.

I'm from upstate and Shads from Brooklyn. So we want it all represented. I mean, it's got Arab It's got Asian, it's got black, it's got white, it's got gay, it's got straight. It was a very open and multicultural book. And it's just a great story. It's a fun read. It's violence. It's bloody. Like I said, it's a kick-ass story.

And ultimately, the character learns that he would have a lot more to lose than he would ever have to gain. And so it's kind of this beautiful arc with the character. And it leaves it open for more adventures at the end. This is the culmination of how many years of work did you guys put into this? With the screenplay, because Shad was on the road at the time. So he wrote his original and then I rewrote it. And then we worked on rewrites for probably like a year and a half.

And then after it didn't get picked up to be a movie, we probably spent another year or two turning it into the graphic novel. And then I had our Messiah and all the other people and the artists that worked on it. I would say like four or five years to get it to where it is now. So we spent a lot of time on it. It was a passion project of ours. And it turned into just a beautiful tribute to Shad. And this cover is a beautiful tribute to Shad. And so I really want to sell these covers out. And I want this book to carry his legacy on because he was just an amazing man.

And he was just a great friend, a great person. And this is such a great story. So everybody who's watching, listening right now, scoutcomics. Let's get these things sold out, okay? Thank you. Did you and Chad meet because you just both happened to be living in L.A. at the time? No, we knew each other from OVW. I had known Shad for 20 years. So him and I always stayed in touch.

So he knew that I was writing screenplays. And so that's where he approached me and said, hey, I got this idea. And his idea again, like it went from his idea and then both of our ideas. And then eventually we worked together. He would stay with me when he was on the road. And when they were done with their shows, he would come and stay with me in L.A. and then we would work together. And then we would be on the phone at 3 o'clock in the morning.

You know, I mean, we, him and I got pretty tight when we were doing this. And I hadn't seen Shad in a long time. It's, it's funny at 40 years old. It's one of those things that you just never learn. You always think there's going to be more time, you know? Like in my mind, this book was going to sell in this comic book, and then we were going to get together. We were going to celebrate.

And it is, it's been the hardest thing in the world for me to not be able to call him and tell him everything that's going on, you know? With great respect. to you and to Shad. Do you remember how you found out the news? I came home from work, two o'clock, and I finally had a chance to just sit down and relax for a little bit and hopped on Facebook, and Johnny Jeter, an old friend of mine, and I just mentioned earlier from OBW, I posted about it. And so I called them and said, is this true? I thought it was BS. I just thought it was, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't know what to make because I honestly just couldn't believe it.

and he said, no, that's true. And so then all of us started talking. We all actually got together. It was fun. Like a bunch of us who were really tight in OVW today, group chat on Facebook, like Chris Masters and Johnny Jeter and Matt Morgan and like a ton of us, Mike Bucci, Noah, like all the Chris Pabone. All of us who were really tight down there just kind of got together and shared some memories

and talked about Shad. but that's how I found out and then I just stuck by my phone and kept checking and checking and checking for the next three days until ultimately we figured out, you know, what had happened. Well, it's amazing that this is how his legacy can live on now through this graphic novel. He had other projects and I know they're working. A lot of projects. Prolific writer. He was a prolific writer and I know that his wife is trying, is working. and I can't imagine the loss that his family feels,

but I know that they are dedicated to making sure those projects. And they will. They were tremendous. He used to always send him to me, you know, because he knew I would tell him what I really thought. Him and I had that kind of relationship. So he would send me pinfall, and he would send me Zoe, and he would, you know, what do you think?

What do you think? And I would give him an eye. And they were amazing. Like, when we first started working together, I was showing him how to write screen plays. And then years later, he's sending him to me. And I'm like, what does this mean, dude? He's telling me because he, that was shed.

He was so driven that when he put his mind to something, he was able to do it better than anybody else. Just very driven and dedicated and very intelligent man. The last time I spoke with him, I think was in January. And I was in Los Angeles. And he said he was about to go to a table read for one of his scripts. I mean, if you're going to a table read, that means you're close to making this thing happen. So pinball, he sent that to me.

I still have it on my phone. And I told him, I thought it was amazing. I mean, it's really cool that he was able to kind of. catch some of the it was kind of like the the off camera at home kind of drama in the wrestling world and he was really able to capture that i know i've heard some rumors that some some people with some money want to get that one made so i hope they do um and i have to really read all those scripts again he's like i wrote a character for you and i don't know which one it is i hope it was a good one um but i got to go through and figure that out now but uh yeah he's he had he had a website that he

had sent me where Path of Vengeance was on, which is Assassin and Son, it's the whole story. And another script that I rewrote for him. And he had like 15 things on there. Like he would come up with these ideas. What was amazing to me is not only would he come up with him, he'd find a way to get it produced and to actually have a product and sell it. You know, he was just such a great salesman. For you having this idea in your mind, this dream in your mind that you were going to be a WWE superstar, you're living that dream. It's taken away from you. You've found some different avenues now and you're doing incredible work now. How do you find those paths?

It's not easy. You mean like as far as in education, you mean... Yeah, like when did you go? I think education's the thing that'll work for me. It was on my ride home when I was moving back from Los Angeles where I was driving through the mountains, the Rocky Mountains. and trying to figure out what I was going to do with the rest of my life. And I had no idea, to be honest.

I knew I was passionate about a few things, but education was something that I was always passionate about. And history, I love history. I was a history major when I went to college. And so driving back with one of my friends and trying to sort through things, I think it seemed like a valuable job that, I knew I wasn't going to make a million dollars doing it, but I was going to be able to wake up every morning and be proud of what I was doing. I think I really needed that.

And I still wasn't sure. I moved back home and it took a few months. And I remember it was my 29th birthday in April. I remember looking at the registration packets and thinking, you know what? This is my birthday present. I'm doing it. And I registered at 29. I went to college orientation.

I think I was the oldest person there that was going back to school, which was tough for me. me given everything that I had been through and, you know, the highlights of my life. But I'm happy that I had the willpower and the dedication to persevere and to make it happen. So I'd say everything that from that point on has been a lot of hard work. And I think that's one of the things I learned from my wrestling career is there is no easy way. There is no magic pill. Everything is day-to-day commitment, dedication, and sacrifice. And being willing to do those things. day to day without any promise of any long-term goal because those long-term goals will come, but they won't come if you don't put the time in every single day. Yes. And I always say it's so

important to celebrate those little wins along the way to accomplishing that big goal that it is that you do have. I just moved to Los Angeles three days ago. And I'm curious from your experience here, what was it that made you realize that your time was up? I love Los Angeles. It was just a really cool city to live in. I think I started to feel more and more secluded. And I think I needed my family and my friends. I think, and I don't know if there was a particular moment.

I think I was home for Christmas. And I think that I got back to L.A. And it was almost like I just kept having dreams of being home. And I felt very isolated where I was. And I felt like I just wasn't doing the right thing. I felt like I wasn't on the right path. I don't know how else to explain it. And it wasn't really much longer after.

I think I moved home in February. I think I decided. And it was tough. It's a tough move. I mean, you know, the cross-country drive again and, you know, accepting the fact that you failed because I failed when I was out there. I mean, I had goals and I didn't achieve them. And it was accepting that failure and moving on to a new phase in my life. That was very difficult.

But again, it was a day-to-day commitment. and I needed people that I could trust to be surrounded with. So that's why I moved back. Did any part of you during that time in Los Angeles go, maybe I should get back into wrestling? Maybe I could make that thing work again. I don't think so. I wasn't over wrestling.

I didn't get over wrestling until probably 10 years later. I probably didn't get over wrestling until I got back in the ring a few years ago. Wow. And I think everybody, I remember people asking me questions about why I did that. They thought it was some planned thing like you're going to get ready to go back to the beam. I'm like, no, I, I think I was 38. I needed to see if I could still do it. And I did it. And it was actually fun. I had a blast. And then I'm like, oh, I'm never doing this again. And I just, I needed to do it. And that's when I started to get over wrestling. And that's when I think I started to mend. I think, again, it was a huge loss. It was, it was a huge heartbreak. And I think it took me a long time. And then I started to do, I started a couple years ago to do a couple of interviews here and there. I really hadn't done much since. I guess I started to stop avoiding it because of how it made me feel, the thought of failure and everything that had happened from the character. And now, I mean, I was always proud of it, but now I don't,

I don't feel that anymore when I talk about or think about wrestling. It almost sounds like it's that bad breakup. It's the girl that you don't want to break up with, breaks your heart, and then, you know, it hurts you when you see photos of her or hurts you when people talk about her. That's kind of what this sounds like. You change the way you normally. would walk somewhere because you might see her. That's what it was. It was avoidance. But I'm at a place now where I've always been proud of what I did. But I'm at a place now where I have a new level of success in what I'm doing. And I don't think that it's the creeping fear or that creeping feeling of failure doesn't affect me anymore. I don't. And not that that what happened

was my fault. I mean, that was out of my hands. But I have a hard time not holding myself accountable to everything. And so I would still hold myself accountable to that. are things that I may have been able to do that could have changed the outcome. Why do you think Sean was able to get repackaged and put back on TV? Well, I don't think I think I drew all the heat. I think that it was aimed towards me, but I think that what they did was Sean afterwards was very mild. He wasn't doing the same thing.

So he was as far as that went, I think he was more of a minor player. I think it was desire too. I mean, Sean wanted to. There came a point where I just didn't want to. Yeah. You know, I just didn't, you know, a lot of guys when they're in that position are calling the writers every day and they're sending them emails and coming up with this idea and that idea. And I didn't do that. I think I was, it took me a while to figure out that I was just that devastated. And I just avoided. You know, your career also indirectly started the career of Tomaso Champa. Oh, yeah. I know. Sean told me that years ago. And I'm looking at that, dude. Because he was, he was young, man. He was like 20 years old.

I think, when he was out of the house. And then he looks very different now, but I had no idea because I've watched him a few times. I'll still turn wrestling on now once in a while. You know, but yeah, I had no idea. That's really cool. Although you weren't in the arena that night, though, right? No, I was. I was backstage.

You just weren't on TV that night. Yeah, yep. And you're right. He looks nothing like how he looks now at all. No, he's great, though. That was like 16 years ago, wasn't it? Like, what is it? Yeah, it was like 15 years ago now.

It's cool that he's wrestling. Obviously, you've embraced wrestling at least a little bit in your life. If we can look behind you and see, is this something from Raw behind you? Yeah, that is from my first overseas tour. I was able to nab that. That is from Seoul, Korea, and it's got some pretty cool signatures on it, including my own. So that was something I had framed as soon as I got back. Whenever we traveled overseas, I would always.

grab, you know, whatever I could. And someday I want to go back, but that was, that was one of my prize possessions. So I had that framed. I got some other things around in my office that are wrestling related to. So you've got a mix of like wrestling stuff and then some stuff from your junior high in there maybe? I got stuff from the comic book. I'm a huge comic book nerd anyway.

I got my cat in America. I just framed my first ever in his cap in his first ever book. I got my action figured up. Yankees. I'm a huge Yankees fan. I have the ticket from the first show I ever appeared on, which was that Raw with McFo that you were talking about. So I'm not a hoarder by any means. But I have my CAS, which is like my master's degree to be a principal, I got that framed up there as well.

So a little bit of everything. I think I've had a pretty active life for the last 40 years. Who would you get the ticket from? Because obviously you didn't have a ticket for that show. It was my at the time, my sister's boyfriend, who bought it. And then it was framed. and they put it in like a oh wow yeah so huntsman muscle huntington so yeah it was really cool i'm so glad he did that i think she broke up with him right after though but i'm glad he did it

you know you first off all the things you've done and talking about all the things that are hanging right now in the room that you're sitting in you're kind of like the most interesting man in the world. I don't know. I'm very, most of the time, I think I'm very ordinary. You know, I get up early, I go to bed early. I appreciate that. But I can look back and I can say that I've done a lot in the last 40 years, but I can tell you that there's a lot more I want to do. So I would never rest on what I've done. I'm always looking forward to what I'm going to do. So we've talked a lot about what happened over the last 15 years. If we look ahead, 5, 10, 15, what's the plan? What's the plan? for you. I'm going to continue in education. I'd like to move up and I don't know what that's going to

look like. There are different levels in education. I'm a junior high school principal. High school would be the next step. Then a district office position where you have a little bit more reach working with the adults in the district. We're pushing this assassin and son story that Chad and I wrote. I want to see that book. Like I said, not just sell out, but in November when it's released in stores. And then when the first volume is released, I want to see that continue. You know, then they're talking about, you know, moving this into some sort of screenplay for a movie, for a television series. I'd like to be a part of that. I have three stepdaughters and I have a son.

So I'm going to be heavily involved in whatever they're doing in the next five years. I want to be able to play catch with my son when he is, like, on varsity level for baseball. That's my goal. So I'm going to continue to work out the way I'm working out. He is six now, even though he acts like he's 16. I want to be able to play catch with him and beat him in basketball. basketball for the next couple of years, but he's got to beat me now on horse like nine times out of 10. So I'm going to have to start practicing a little bit more. I know that my perception of the

principal when I was in high school was like, you know, you tell the story of people walking on the other side of the path when they see you coming. That was me with the principal whenever I saw the principal walking down the hallway because usually the only time I was talking to the principal was when I was in trouble. So what's it like now being on the other side of things? Me too. I was not your ideal student. I was very smart. I could have done well in school, but I did not have the work ethic back then. That didn't come until later. I got in a little bit of trouble. I kind of blended into the background, but my perception on the other end now is we work really hard to try to make all kids successful. And I don't think that I ever would have thought of that back then.

And there's just, there's a reason when you're young, you can nitpick every decision that's made. you can nitpick every rule that's created. I was never and still I'm not a rule follower. But when you're in the position to question, it's easy to question. When you're on the other end of it, as a building principle, you realize that there's a much larger picture for the greater good of everybody. Some decisions have to be made for the better of all students and not just a few. And I don't think I realized how hard it is to make those tough decisions

that somebody who's in a leadership position has to make back then. Like you just thought that they did it because they wanted to be mean or they're stupid. They don't know what they're doing. You don't have, you have the luxury of not worrying about the grand scheme of things, you know, when you're young. But now, like I said, it's different. You have to worry about everybody and then you worry about yourself last. It sounds like an answer like you could give if you were a politician. Have you thought about getting into politics?

I would love to get into politics because I feel like I can maintain my integrity and my honor and make change. I'm pretty resolute and I have a tremendous amount of willpower and I feel like I'm always trying to do the right thing. There's something that forces me to do it even if it's not the easiest thing to do. But I'm very disenchanted with politics lately. I feel like I'm not getting into a political debate. and just on either side. I feel like we can do better. So maybe, but who knows?

Maybe that's, maybe it's 10 years down the road. Matt Morgan's. He's doing it. What's that? You mentioned Matt Morgan. He's running for, was a commissioner of Longwood, I believe. Oh, geez. But, no, Matt, I just talked about it a couple weeks ago.

But Matt Morgan's doing it. Matt Morgan's another very well-spoken, intelligent man. So he's going to be successful. Not to mention he's like seven feet tall. super intimidating. So who knows? Maybe someday. That's the thing. If Matt Morgan comes and knocks on your door and asks for your vote, how are you going to tell that man no? I'm going to lie if I'm not voting for him is what I'm going to do. Yeah, yeah, sure. All of them for you. This has been such a pleasure chatting with you and congrats on everything that you've done. And I think that people

really have only seen your career up until the summer of 2005 and haven't realized everything that you've done in the last 15 years since. Oh, thank you very much, man. It's been a lot of fun, actually. We should hang out sometime. Yeah. Can you show us the comic book one more time? Absolutely.

This is the tribute cover of Assassin and Son. Oh, I have another time. There we go. There we go. It's scoutcomic. The original book one will be out in November, and then volume one will be out shortly after with the first 90 pages of the story.

But everything from this goes to benefit Shads family. And then I want you to keep buying in November because that's going to continue his legacy and continue to benefit his family as well. I love it. Well, when you're out here in L.A., the first round's on me. Thank you very much, Chris. I appreciate it. That was fantastic.

And I can't thank Mark enough for taking the time to do this. Take a screenshot. Let us know right now that you're listening. Let us know what your favorite part about this was, again, scoutcomics. for that graphic novel, Assassin and Son, and all the proceeds go to Shad's family. I'm just so jacked up to see how successful Mark has been in his post-WWE career. And he's an incredible shape, by the way. Take a second to check out this interview on YouTube, number one,

because I know you might be curious to see what he looks like now 15 years later. And number two, you just got to see the shape that he's in. I mean, he could easily step foot into the ring again and just be dominant. Yes. Thank you for being part of this one. I saw a quote this week. It's attributed to a Gaelic, like an old Gaelic quote, but I don't know. It was attributed to also unknown.

But this one really hit me. Be sure to taste your words before you spit them out. And as someone who talks into a microphone for a living like me, how one hits hard. Be sure to taste your words before you spit them out. So I just wrapped up interviews with Daniel Puter and E.Y. Eric Young, who, keep an eye out for those ones. See you soon.

This is Brandon Kelly, the host of Blue Wire's new podcast, Golden Gold. She takes everybody on. Messy has got it. From Lionel Messi to Marta to Pele, our show takes a deep dive into soccer superstars. Two, nil and he's. From Zlatan Ibrahimovitch's brash confidence with the play to back it up, to Megan Rapino's heroic outspokenness and World Cup flair. Each episode examines a personality of the world's game.

We'll dig into Maradona's Hand of God performance and subsequent downfall. The teenage trio at Dortmund that signal the next generation of superstars and that infamous headbut that slung Zinidine Zadan from glory. Golden goal Soccer stars and the moments that made them premiering this summer on Blue Wire The Hammer Alley podcast An 80s flashback mockumentary

Back in the 80s there were a thousand bands Trying to make it in the world of rock But there was one band that had it all Hammer Alley Whatever happened to Hammer Alley How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video They're a band from 1987 Hammer Alley

Ever heard of them? To Rock Bottle. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Alley. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.