Insight with Chris Van Vliet - WWE's Legendary Music Composer Jim Johnston

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

Jim Johnston is a music composer who worked as the music producer for WWE from 1985 - 2017. This episode originally aired on April 20, 2021. He is responsible for the legendary theme songs for Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, Degeneration X, The Undertaker, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon, Randy Orton and countless others. During the course of his 32-year career with WWE he composed more than 10,000 pieces of music before he was released in 2017. Jim joins Chris Van Vliet from his studio in Greenwich, CT where he talks about how he started working for WWE, his process behind creating music, some of his favorite themes, why he doesn't think he will be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame and he ends the interview with a beautiful piano rendition of The Undertaker's theme song. This is truly one of my favorite conversations ever! For more information about Chris Van Vliet and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet CVV CLIPS: youtube.com/CVVCLIPS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are go. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Bleas! Oh, this is such a good one. Welcome back to another audio adventure on Insight. I'm CVV, Chris Van Fleet, and this episode, my friends, is Goat Talk. Because that's exactly what Jim Johnston is. He is the man, or better yet, the goat behind literally every legendary wrestling theme. Stone Cold Steve Austin, Mick Foley,

Triple H, Degeneration X, The Undertaker, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon, Randy Orton, and the list just goes on and on and on. He was with WWE for 32 years, and during that time, he composed more than 10,000 pieces of music. This episode originally aired in April of last year, but I've had so many messages and so many emails about this conversation that it only seemed right to air it again for people who haven't had a chance. chance to hear it. Or if you have heard it, maybe you want to listen again. Also, stick around until the very end because he gets in front of his piano and plays the Undertaker's theme song for us. Goosebubbs every time. Take a screenshot. Let us know that you're listening. Jim, by the way, does not have social media, despite all of the accounts you've seen on Twitter. They're all fake. So just tag me at Chris Van Fleet. I'd be happy to repost that. And let's do it. You ready?

please welcome the legendary Jim Johnston it is such an honor to be sitting down with the legend himself Jim Johnston welcome to the show thank you very much for having you I think that your story is so fascinating I'm so excited to dive into this because your music was the soundtrack to my youth and it's it's touched so many people but I'm curious as we start things off when did music first touch your life? Oh, early on, my grandmother was always singing my family's from nowhere, from Pocahontas, Arkansas. And she actually got a scholarship to go to Juilliard to study opera. But, you know, that just was not in the car.

And she was not leaving her husband in Pocahontas, Arkansas to go study Juilliard. but she played the organ and sang every single week of her life in church. And she would always sing and play piano when we'd go on vacation to visit them in the summers. My dad had an organ, you know, a crappy Hammond organ at home that he'd mess around on. But he also, my parents listened to a lot of different kinds of music. I just always noticed music. I didn't, it's not something I can say I noticed in such a tangible fashion that like, it was like, oh my God, I've got to find some music to listen to.

It's just I always noticed it. I would hear it in other rooms. And then there was this pivotal moment. My parents had taken my brother and sister and I to some kind of amusement park or, there was a big thing. Maybe it was a World's Fair. I don't know what the hell it was, but it was some major league event.

So we're walking around and it's all the rides and booths and all these different events. And I hear music went. And we round this corner and I'm like dragging my entire family who's not interested in pursuing us. And I round the turn

and there up on this stage is this band. Four guys, kind of very Beatles-esque, bright red sequent suit matching suits just playing away and I was like if there are if there are music drugs I had 48 needles hanging out of my arms

at that point is like I was in that's all I needed here it's like I'm doing that which is interesting because it's pretty well documented horrible stage fright. I can barely play my wife a new song without hemming and hawing. So I never became a performer, nor did I really want to. But just I wanted that feeling that that, you know, just,

Chris, I could have stayed there for as long as they could have played. and just, you know, I mean, everyone has moments when they are truly moved by music. Where, you know, it can just, it can take you from, you know, whatever mood you're in to, it's like tears are coming out of your eyes. Yeah. In a heartbeat. And that's what that moment did for me. So from then on, and, you know, I begged my father to buy me a guitar.

he wouldn't because he didn't trust it. I'd stick with it because I didn't stick with piano lessons when I was a little kid. So he rented one for a year and I had to prove myself. Rented the guitar for a year. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, he was Depression era got.

You don't just go down to the music store and buy guitars. Now you can play pretty much any instrument. So I'm curious, which is your instrument that's like an extension. of your own body, you can play it so easily, and which one came really difficult for you? Well, I do all my compo, or 95% of my composing on either guitar or pianos, so it's kind of an equal shot between those. Piano's much better for like anything that's going to be orchestrated, because as you play, it's at least for me it's easier to hear imagine like oh this this thing um you know

that that's going to be that's going to be the clarinet you know when you do it on guitar for some reason just a guitar is more a guitar so it's it's going to accompany what you're seeing so for songs and guitars is the right direction. What's hard? Well, what's hard are all the stringed instruments. They're so hard, in fact, that I don't play them. They are successfully really hard. I don't know.

You know, to get any sort of competence level on a violin or a cello is that that's got to be the thing you do. Actually, I know before we started, this interview, I was telling you about this new little book that Sting put on an audible exclusive that everyone should read because it's really just an interesting looking through the doorway of his life. I just read a short thing by Yo-Yo Ma, which was hearing his story was such an inspiration to me about, I mean, he really was a prodigy guy. You know, he was better than anybody when he was five or something, no.

But I don't know, you know, I get such, I don't know, I get such a reward from reading stories like that and their experiences. And any time I read a story from someone like that, I'm not too big. into the whole world of egos. But anytime I go like, oh, I felt that. I feel like, oh, God, there's hope. That guy was hungry at lunchtime one time. So we really share a lot. So did you determine at a young age that music was going to be part of your life

and you were going to find some sort of way to do this for a living? I wanted to, Chris, but. And this makes my father sound like he was really strict. He wasn't really a strict guy. It was just, I think, kind of the overall vibe was, you know, and it still is. If you wanted to go into music as a living, that's a long shot. And you're really playing the long odds on that one. So because you need a bunch of things to come together, starting with you have to have some.

innate skill. And if you don't have a lot of skill, then you have to be a combination of a tremendous performer and real PR skills about how to promote yourself above the fact that you're not particularly a good musician. But some people absolutely pull that off because they kind of become a spectacle, you know, and they surround themselves with other people who really kind of carry the load of the music. So, you know, I always did art, what they call the plastic arts, meaning physical art, either painting or, and I was kind of headed to

a life of being an architect and graphic designer and had gone as far as, having been accepted at harbors architectural school and right before i was going to go i said told my dad i can't go i got i have to try this music thing and then where did that happen was really disappointed so you you know you're accepted at harvard which is a feat in itself and then you decide to not go there so then where did the path take you what did you what specifically did you do in music oh it was the thing I was working supporting myself as a carpenter and you know doing falling into the forever trap of you know I'll do this during the day and then I'll work on my

music at night so but of course by the time six o'clock rolls around you just want to go out with your friends and have a beer and then fall asleep because you're so freaking tired from the day that you're done you're You're not taking on the second occupation here. And something like music, it's not even a nine to five job if you want to succeed. It's a kind of a 16 hour a day job if you really want to accomplish something. So obviously people know you for your time working at WWE, but what were you doing before WWE hired you.

I was sort of coming up the ranks. I was doing a lot of work for HBO and MTV and showtime and scoring some stuff and doing all sorts of interstitial stuff

and you know, anything I can get my hands on basically and just trying to work my way in and my favorite food which was a then, at least in my neck of the woods in Connecticut, was sushi. And there was only one place in town that had it. And the sushi bar was, it was really was a Japanese restaurant. And then the guy started a little sushi bar with like four seats. And then, you know, became incredibly popular. And then it expanded to maybe eight seats. But it was still such a niche item that it was like going to your.

local bar. You know, you see the same people there every time you need it. And so one night I saw this guy that's seen a lot of times and he said, can you say you write music or something like that? And then he explained that he worked for WWE and he was the art director for them and he had been asked to put together a video for a NAPI, which is a cable TV convention. And he said I could stumble through and put together a video, but I have no clue how to put music to it. You know, if you want to give it a try, so I did. Through that, I met Vince.

Vince and I inexplicably hit it off tremendously well. And this is early on when there really wasn't entrance music. Not that really wasn't. There wasn't entrance music. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite stories is Vince's father when Vince bought the company from his dad. and he wanted to put music in and his father told him,

if you put music to this program, you will completely kill this business. And so big miss by dad there. So Vince and I just sort of kept developing the idea of, you know, developing the idea of, you know, First, it was really show themes. And then a couple of guys had a theme.

And, you know, it's just a truly organic process. It was not a big plan. It was never like, okay, you know, right now we've got two themes, but by, you know, four years from now, I want to make sure that 27% of the wrestlers have themes. You know, it was these two guys had themes because of happenstance. And then it's like, well, I guess it's working. Let's give this other guys.

Then for a long time, it was only baby faces got themes. Heels never got themes because, you know, you had to make sure. And that's something I sort of pushed back on, you don't push back too much on on stuff. But it said, you know, heel should have good music. And if the heel ever had music, it wasn't music. It was like toilet flushes or something that's clearly stated how you're supposed to feel about this guy. And so finally, that tide finally turned as well, too, where, you know, heels got good music, good themes, you know, because they're no different than the baby faces.

you just love to hate them as opposed to love to love them. What was the very first entrance theme that you wrote? I haven't got the slightest idea. Or do you remember one of your first pieces of work? It was the theme for, I think it was the theme for WrestleMania 1. Okay. Was the first thing, it was a big saxophone theme. And the first time, it was such a rush for me, the first time I heard my music playing in an arena.

Yeah. You know, and people responding to it. So that was the closest I'm going to get to what people talk about when they do concerts and they get that connection with the audience and that rush of that feeling. So. But up until you started working for WWE, you're scoring TV shows and other things like that. What are your composer friends thinking when you tell them, I'm going to go work for this wrestling company called WWF? Well, I didn't have any composer friends. So that part was easy.

But the friends I did have, I think the ones that were close enough to know what I was doing and to really care what I was feeling about my life were just having. I was working, you know, and that I was seen to be taking the next step. And in the early, not the early years for the first, I don't know, 15 years, maybe longer, I'm horrible with time. Vince and I were just a, it was just a handshaped agreement. I wasn't an employee. And it wasn't like he didn't want me to be an employee or I didn't want to be an employee. It's just we were fine with the way things were. It wasn't until he took the company public.

And when that happens, then here we go. Bring on the lawyers. And so they come in and they do all sorts of risk assessments. And they were like, oh my God, you're telling me just all your music, you don't have them under contract. You can just walk out and go work for the NFL tomorrow afternoon. you know, that would not be a good thing. So then we had to have contracts.

So I became an employee. I imagine, you know, as someone... Sorry, one other thing I would say there. And in my admiration for Vince is, I think Vince and I would have worked until my last day on the job with the handshake would have been perfectly happy with it. Wow. Yeah.

which is you can't say a lot, that a lot in this day, age. I imagine growing up loving music and then getting into being a composer. John Williams has to be someone that you look up to. He's a world apart. He's just a different category. You know, as Zimmer is clearly a brilliant guy. incredibly prolific. I love that he's very brave and loves to take chances.

And I admire his desire to collaborate with and learn from other people. But John Williams is just the way he orchestrates. Nobody is like nobody has figured. out how to do work with an orchestra the way he has and the way he does. It's just, and there's this group of people mainly in Hollywood who are really the top-notch people at scoring movies and their great, Randy Newman is one of my favorites. I love the way he writes, but more than anything, I love the way he orchestrates. And one thing for anyone who's into that kind of stuff, you should check out because I always like to look at, you know, what are stylistic elements of people.

And Randy Newman's orchestrating is just like James Taylor's guitar playing. They always have hammer on, hammer on, hammer off thing. So James Taylor is always. I love that he has a guitar. Yes. James Taylor is always doing, you know, that it's a hammer on. Yeah. And Randy Newman is always doing that same kind of hammer on, hammer off dynamic,

but with violins and orchestras. And it's always struck me as it's so similar. But I was lucky enough through a friend to be in the studio, not that he knew it, with Randy, when he was both working on and literally conducting the orchestra for the movie, for Robert Redford's movie, The Nashville. Wow. And it was, I mean, it was embarrassing because I'm sort of hiding in the corner. I don't know anybody there. And I spend most of the day trying not to burst into tears because it was just, it looks out saying like, oh, God, they're going to shut down the session,

and the session costs like $8 million a minute with the street. Four extra players in the room. And they're going to go, oh, my God, this guy is having a nervous breakdown over here in the corner. What's the problem? But it was so staggeringly beautiful, what, what, the orchestra was playing and Randy's music. And then I was in the control room just sitting around and the sky walks in and boom. Robert Redford, and it was just like as plain as day.

He saw me. He walked over. He goes, hi, Bob Redford. I'm like, oh, yeah, right. Welcome. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. You know, in some way, your music has touched a lot of people in that same type of way. I know, but it's so strange.

because it's so hard to process that. And I'm so humbled by it, but almost embarrassed by it. You know, it's actually an interesting dynamic when someone, particularly when it happens in person and someone is, you know, really gushing about how much you've meant to them or something you've done has meant to them. Yeah. and you know you want to honor that and be completely respectful but at the same time

there's this other part you want to say like hey I'm good I'm glad you'll like this stuff but because I think all composers when you're doing what you do you're just doing what you do you're from that you're you're you're you know i'm not sitting around the studio going oh godchin that's really oh jee oh that's oh that's really you know that's that's that's that's going to kill people right there you know it's i think you're you're no different than the fireman who's he puts out fires that's what his job is my job is to sit here in the studio and compose music well the thing is you might look at it that way, but from the outside looking in, when we're listening to your work, you are the greatest to ever do this in the wrestling business.

Yeah, well, you know, and now I'm trying to break out of that business. And, you know, it's so interesting because I never, I never was a wrestling fan. And, you know, as I said, I got in the door there, absolutely. complete happenstance. You know, it wasn't like I was sending takes to Vince saying, you've got to listen to my stuff, man, you know, because I've got this great idea. We'll do entrance themes for these guys, you know.

So, but it just, it just steam rolled so quickly. And Vince was, obviously, he wanted to take, wanted to take the business over from his dad for a long time, or I'm assuming that, that he wanted to do that for a long time, finally did. And once he had control, he just wanted to completely change the landscape,

which he did. Yeah. Where does the process begin? When Vince or someone in WWE says, we've got this new person that's coming in, we need a theme for them. Where does the process begin? I never really,

got a whole lot of information, Chris. It was, you know, if I, it was, if I, if I could see any video, that helped tremendously. Because a lot of it, where I start generally, is I want to know a basic tempo, a vibe. So, you know, in the extreme, if it's a giant guy, it's going to be a slower, big heavy slow lumbering theme that tempo that reflects he's a big guy you know he's so if you run fast I would start doing that now and then other guys are smaller and the wiry and you know so they're there they're you want to reflect that wiring and that nervousness and that that energy so you start

there and then I just try to find something that resonates. So it really is it's as elusive as I just sit down and start playing stuff and then suddenly, you know,

it's such an odd process, but suddenly something will go, I'll just know like, that's it. That's, that's it. I mean, you hear about writers getting, writer's block. Does that ever happen to you in the music world? Never. Never. Never. Not a moment in my life

if I had writer's block. It's my, I, I, you know, and this sounds like, oh, for you. But I, but, but, you know, everything, even the best stuff can be in extremes where it, it's not helping you out a lot. Yeah. And I have been so graced to, never have writer's block but the other side of that is I can't pick up a guitar or sit down at the piano

or pick up a bass guitar without getting an idea they just come so I've got this backlog you know I keep all these ideas on my phone you know and before that it was on little you know those little handheld

tape like a palm pilot or something reporters used to Oh, okay. You're like, what, and when they said best, you said what? And so I just erased it the other day. So, and I'm already up to 73 ideas now. And I have these files and memos, and each folder, I take them off the phone and archive them. Each folder must have, you know, it'll get to about 200 or 300 when I'll finally just say I've got to get these off the phone so that I don't, so the phone doesn't break or then get stolen and they're gone.

But I've got hundreds, hundreds of folders of these things that I'd love to go back and go through. I mean, obviously, you know, out of 70 things, I figure if I add the time, you know, which are worth pursuing to do a full recording. I don't know. 15, well, I don't know what the odds are. But I don't have that kind of time. And so it also produces another thing that's not particularly valuable for me, which is distraction, is I'll be working on one thing while I'm working on that.

I get a cool idea. And I want to stop what I'm working on and now go work on the new cool. idea because it's fresh and it's current and and it's your it's it that's exciting versus the less than exciting discipline aspects of sticking with it and and finishing a composition and my time at wwe was a blessing in that regard because the pace was such and the schedules were so demanding that i didn't have time to get distracted sure you know it's just people shoving the forward. What was the quickest turnaround that you ever had for a theme?

We just signed this guy. He's debuting tonight on Raw, Jim. Oh, that happened all the time. Oh, my God. That was not rare in the least. But I, you know, I don't know, an hour and a half or something. Whose theme did you write in an hour? I have no idea, but I know that, you know, there were definitely times when I get a call from wherever they were shooting TV.

And it's like, you know, we need something for this guy. You know, whatever. The writers just decided they were in a tag team, but they're going to split him off. It's going to be a solo. You know, give me anything. and you know it's it's easy for them to say

give me anything but I felt a great responsibility like part of these guys's careers and successes were in my hands I think the the music now in WWE and in AEW

I think it's sorry this is me I think it's all really homogenous and really mediocre and doesn't have anything to do with the characters and I think that's why there are less big stars I don't think that there are no potential big stars

in the rosters hiding there I mean before Steve Austin was Steve Austin he was the ring mask and there are lots of stories like that is that these people need the right storyline, the right costuming, and definitely the right music to lift them up, because particularly the music that's serving multiple masters in a way,

it's entertainment for the audience. It's a big boot in the ass for the wrestler before they go out and to sort of get them in the head space, of their character and to kind of get them jacked up to do a great performance. And if you're in that situation, I can't imagine being in that situation where, you know, you're not really sure your character, you know, the storyline is sort of, you know, I'm supposed to hate this guy, but why do I hate? I don't even know why I'm supposed to hate it.

And, you know, your music is just kind of generic wrestler guy music. Right. And you're supposed to go out there and be on top of the world and charm everybody else. I think that's a big ass. Well, your music ends up playing into who that character is and can often define what their gimmick becomes. I just had Chris Masters on the show recently. I can't imagine Chris Masters without that entrance theme, which, you know, which then became his entrance,

which then became a part of who he was. Well, but it's, it's, I always saw WWE as a live movie, you know, and I always felt that I'm, from scoring the characters to the movies,

um, that their theme has to be just like the theme to Jaws or Darth Vader or any other, Dr. Chabago, you know, Air Force One, you know, you have to hear it and think like, yeah, okay, here comes Steve Austin. You don't need to know anything else. You don't need to know the storyline. Don't need to know who he's resting tonight.

Don't know, you don't need to know, you know, what happened last week or what might happen in the next week. All you need to know is Steve Austin's coming out. It's like, boom, I'm good to go. Right. And you're instantly in that defiant, go screw yourself, frame of mind. And you take that out of the rest of the business. And I think that's, it's an enormous component. And so the audience, it's like you're putting too much responsibility on the audience to,

It's like being in a movie, and the movie is not very good, and you're not following the movie. So you're, you know, like you're nudging your girlfriend. It's like, so wait a second. Is this the guy who we think killed the girl? Or do we think the girl killed the guy? Like, I'm kind of lost here. If that's the audience reaction, then boy, you're fighting a losing battle. They have to be the exact opposite.

They have to be like, this guy did it. He's going to get his ass to. And I can't wait to be there when it happens. You know, you mentioned AEW. And when they started, you were no longer employed by WW. Did they ever reach out to you to have you there? No. No.

And it is always just from a business angle, it is always amazed me. Because if I was in the board room or whatever, I'd say, like, Vince just fired you. This is the way we can really stick to him. Find that guy, get him in here, the sacrament. You know. Well, think of how many other people they brought over from WWE, Jim Ross, Justin Roberts, and, of course, all kinds of other, you know, in-ring performers. Yeah, it's amazing.

It's, I don't know, you know, it doesn't make. sense to me. But, hey. I think the thing that was so great about your legendary themes throughout your career is, within one or two beats, boom, we knew exactly who was coming out. And this is something that WCW never figured out, TNA never figured out. And unfortunately, AEW really doesn't have that either. No, they don't.

And the biggest surprise to me was all my time at WWE, music was really important to Vince. I mean, he clearly got the importance of it. And so something changed. So, I mean, either the business has just gotten so big, or maybe he's a little bit older and just doesn't want to be so engaged on a micromanagement level,

and it's leaving those decisions. other people. But it seems like such an obvious thing in both WWE and AEW, well, you know, things aren't going perfect in here and our ratings certainly are not what they once were. What can we do to give this baby a shot in the arm? You know, that someone doesn't raise their hand and say like, everyone thinks the music's up. Maybe we could get better music. I don't know. But it's a, I mean, you know, you're in Hollywood.

It's the whole entertainment world. There's a lot of egos floating around. And many, many decisions are not based on logic. but they are based on, you know, love or lust or hatred or resentment or, you know, yes, he's the right guy for the job, but we're not hiring them. Yeah. You know, it's great. I mean, it's crazy, but, thanks.

That's the world in which we live. But with the amazing relationship that you had with Vince McMahon, you know, dating back to the 80s. Did you ever think that you would get fired one day? Not really, but in the last couple of years, I certainly do, because there was a guy there who was trying to get me fired, trying to get me thrown out and get his people in the door. And so, you know, fine, that's the way the game is played,

but it's not the way I do. I may be speaking completely out of turn here, but you're available for hire. You're doing all kinds of other work. If a wrestler who wasn't signed to a major company were to reach out to you, would you be able to make music for someone like that? I did actually for people. Oh, my God, the fields. PCO?

Yeah, PCO, thank you. That's so mean or mean, not to remember his name. He reached out out of the blue somehow got to me, and he was so kind and gracious and said, like, you know, this is, I'm taking an absolute flyer here. Would you even consider writing a theme for me? And this was shortly after I'd gotten out of, well, not that shortly.

you know but six nine months year and I said sure well you know why not what I'm not doing that much else you know what the hell it'd be fun you know it's also when you do something for so many years human beings are very habitual you know and you get in the habit of stuff

it doesn't just go away overnight sure And so while I get a million ideas, song ideas, orchestral ideas, still to this day, I'll be messing around on something. And I'll go like, boy, that'd be a great theme. You know, I mean, you just pick up the guitar when you're messing around. You know, it's like, oh, okay. You just wrote my entrance theme. Thank you.

you know, that would be a great thing. And that's really how it happens most of the time. And so yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess there are contractual problems, but it's also been a little surprising that some of the wrestlers haven't gotten in touch and who are signed to AEW or WWW and say, like, Hey, I don't care. Writing under an alias, but I've got good music. I don't know.

I know in the times before I left that there was a lot of control issues going on where, you know, I heard through the grapevine. There were a lot of wrestlers who just hated the music they were being given, but they were also not being given any latitude to do. something different. What I think is interesting is Shinski Nakamura's theme, you know, became a fan favorite. The crowd was singing along.

But that wasn't originally going to be his theme. It was going to be Bobby Rood, that glorious theme was going to be given to Shinsky Nakamura. After speaking with you here, it seems crazy that they just had a theme. They go, this is a great theme. We've got to find the right person for it. Where you're doing the opposite,

you're finding the person and then making music to fit that person. Yeah. well yeah it doesn't make much sense to sit around here and compose music and then say like oh this is

a great piece of music I just don't need to find the right film for it you know no it's like someone makes a film and then you write music to it yeah it's backwards and that's a great

point you bring up is probably one of the problems for sure. It's obviously going to be very difficult, like choosing your favorite child, but what do you think is your masterpiece? Oh, I, Chris,

I have no idea. When I think about it, well, I don't really think about it, but like if I'm going through old stuff, looking for something, and I come across old themes, and I go like,

oh, that, you know, I really like that. And I have this, um, well evidently quite a few composers have this once

once you compose something and it's done it sort of leads you and it's out there and so there isn't I guess there's a pride of ownership but there isn't a at least for me there's not a like wow you know jeez I was having a good day when I wrote that one

You know, that's just great. It's much more like you're just hearing a piece of music on the radio that it's like, oh, that's one of my favorite song. I love that song. I love that song. And I feel that with absolutely no ownership whatsoever, it's just like, oh, you know, it's like absolutely like someone else wrote it, but I love listening to it. So, but it changes all the time.

I mean, it just changes all the time. I mean, from a, from a, what I get, what I read and what I get asked, certainly Undertaker seems to be up there, but I think that's mainly because of Undertaker. I mean, he's had, I think, arguably the most incredible career in the business, you know, lengths and popularity. I mean, the guy's at least semi-retired now at this point. And

he's essentially as popular as he's ever been. And if Vince brought him to the show or WrestleMania or any other pay-per-view, he'd be the top card, probably. He'd probably be the most popular guy in the show. I mean,

maybe except for Austin or the rock. I think a lot of people would point to your DX theme. Like that, Generation X theme is so good. It was so good. I was like 15 or 16 when it first came out. I thought it was rage against the machine. Oh, it's a funk song. It's so strange. It sort of comes off as a rock song, but to me, it's a, it's completely a funk song. Huh. Like, like right out of, I don't know. It's sort of like, rage. doing their version of a Motown tune or something because it's it's it's got this funk

you know it's not it's not a rock beat a rock version of it would be you know it's be much more straightforward chunk but dx is the way i wrote it's much it's much it's bouncing. You know, it's a punk song. I mean, I'd love to do a version with like cool in the gang. And it'd be, I think if I did, it would make so much more sense. That'd be an incredible collaboration. Chris Warren's was, Chris Warren, just great.

God rest and soul. yeah yeah i mean you mentioned cool in the gang being a cool collaboration but think of all the incredible collaborations that you've done throughout your career which are the ones that really like really impressed you uh well i guess the ones with motorhead were really exciting um god rest his soul too yeah no kidding lemmy um and i think that was a a good lesson and don't ever prejudged because, you know, Lemmy has a pretty formidable reputation of being a pretty wild guy and certainly a well-known drinking problem. But then to finally meet him and being the studio with him, he just could not have been more of a gentleman. and a really interesting guy to talk with.

You know, it's, I don't know, things are never what you think. Yeah. I want to ask you about one of my favorite themes, which was. Oh, great. I love this. Billy Guns' ass man song. Oh, my ass man. Where did you get the idea for this?

I well, I mean, from, from him, because he already was the ass man, who was already wearing the bathing suit. He was Mr. Ass. Yeah, Mr. Ass was, you know, ass across his ass. And it told me to this day, and I don't think most people get it is just the incredible double entendre pun of that song. I just, it still makes me laugh. The lyrics are incredible. I love to love it. Like a cat-go.

Man, and it comes off like, you know, kind of a sexual thing, you know. And yet his character was kind of a little bit of a buffoon in a way. Sorry, no offense to him. And I don't know if that was on purpose or just the way he played it. but I just loved it like put a comic in I'm an ass man you know

and that he's the one ostensibly singing this about himself I'm an ass man you know and thinking he's putting himself over it's just but that kind of stuff that was the best of WWE when they have

fun with themselves. And now everything's so serious. Everybody hates each other and everyone's, you know, I'm going to get my hands on that. You know, Austin and rock and all the, you know, the top guys in the best moments generally were fun. It was more, you know, dry humor, sarcasm. when it gets, I don't know, it just goes to places that aren't very much fun.

Yeah. I think one of your most underrated themes of all time is The Brood or Gangrel's theme. Oh, yeah. And I mean, that theme is so, so good. I'm curious to know where you got the idea to figure out that line, play it reverse for the start of the song. I am dead, I am buried. I totally forgotten what the actual line was. I think that's...

That probably was one of the producers there, really creative guy named Chris Chambers. I worked with him on that. And I think that was his idea. And to put a line up front. And then I was... Did all the reversing and slowing it down. And I figured, hey, it's got to be ghostly and devilish.

but I remember doing that I couldn't that that kind of wah-wa guitar part I couldn't I had like three different wah-wa pedals and I just could not get the sound I was wanting and all a wah-wa pedal does is

it's a tone control in a pedal and basically the mid-range frequencies of something and it's sweeping that So as it sweeps, it makes them wow, wow, want to send. But I couldn't get enough of it.

And it sounded cheesy. So I put, I recorded the guitar straight ahead. And then I was on the, this was probably waiting technical for 99. No, I'm a guitar player myself, by the way. I probably should have led with this. I ran it through two different channels of the console, like through one and then out and then into another one so I could use two EQs at the same time and I balanced the bands right to the frequency I wanted and then I played it back and recorded live working the console

and I could turn the controls and perfect rhythm to the song and I got a much thicker or much more extreme kind of wah sound that I think really helped that. Oh, it's such a good theme. Are we those guys? You know, and the interesting thing, Chris, when I would look into doing something, you know, and the theme would turn out well, then it was a perfect deal when the wrestlers had the talent

and gifts to play into that. I always looked at it like a dance. You can have a great theme, but if the guy can't dance to it, then you're kind of dead in the water. And Gangrel and Rood really danced to that. I mean, they sold this sort of nouveau, cool vampire thing that, like, it's cool to be a vampire.

And they just seemed, again, but same deal. You had fun because it seemed like they were having fun with it. Yes. They came up, they rose out of the ground, they were almost always smiling. They were. Funny how that works. What was the last thing that you wrote before being released by WWA?

I think, well, I wrote quite a few things, but they weren't being used because I was being sort of politically squashed. But it was end of days. Baron Corbyn's name. Yeah, which was very apropos because if you look at the lyrics, I forgot if I said this earlier or if it was before we were talking before we went on air here, there's always something personal to the themes. and a lot of times it's very personal and Baron Corbans was definitely was end of days

you know it's purely if you look at the lyrics it's you know it sounds like an epic end of days I'm bringing end of days on you but it's autobiographical and I don't realize this until I look back on it's like oh

Oh, my God. You know, it's almost embarrassing. It's so personal. I'm talking about, I know the end's coming. You know, this is, this is, wow. I'm bowing out. You know, the big goodbye is right on the horizon. And it was my end of days at the WWE.

And if you, and, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there and anger and disappointment. But that happened a lot. Vince's theme. I wrote Vincent's theme, No Chance in Hell when I was really angry with him. I'd just seen him had his worst,

bullish, bullyish self. So it was just a literal telling what I saw. is like, you know, you have no chance against this guy because he'll just keep coming at me. You know, so you're screwed. Wow. Because he doesn't, he doesn't play by the rules you play by. Yeah. So you have no cheat.

There's a little Jim Johnston in every single theme. For his. And I'm, you know, it's, it's so strange that that dynamic of you write something and then you don't realize to later that. I mean, at the time, you feel like, oh, okay. So I got to crank out this theme. Okay, well, no chance. All right. No chance.

Yeah. Oh, I've got. And you look back at it later. It's like, oh, my God. And that's spooky. And it happened a million times, by the way. How many different themes can we hear your voice on? Oh, that's an interesting question.

I have no idea. Not that, certainly not that many. For a couple of reasons, one, I just didn't sing a whole lot. And generally speaking, and to my great frustration, because finding good singers is the most difficult thing I ever deal with. They still deal with it now. Once you find a good singer, they're part of that gimmick. Yeah.

Like, I couldn't use Chris Warren to sing somebody else's theme. I mean, he was sort of in that DX world forever. You know, see the same guy who's saying Triple H is my time? Yeah, but I was about to say, you can expand it out because the triple H was in DX. And so, you know, okay, you can stretch it that far. But that's as far as you can stretch it. because people will hear that voice and go like, oh, that's the guy who sings the X. Yeah.

And for me, I have always thought it's so crucially important. And I dealt with this when WWE started to use pieces of outside music. And people there always felt like, oh, well, it makes this bigger to use this piece of music. I believe that's true for something like a pay-per-view theme to brand like a pay-per-view or a rest of the meeting like using the highway to hell or ACBC and so. But not as a theme because I think it's so important that when you hear someone's theme, you have no associations with that other than that person. You can't have Undertaker coming out and people are thinking about the first time they made out with a girlfriend. To a kid rock song. That happened to be the song that was on the radio in the car at the time.

You know, you just want hyper-focus. You want people to be completely immersed in this emotional world of this character or as close as you can get to it. And outside music, people are, you know, whether they like it or they hate it, that's what they're going to be thinking about when they hear it. So what sneaky song could we hear your voice on that we might not know it's your voice? Oh, there was a smackdown theme where, that I did where it was sort of my homage and criticism of the monster voice. the cookie monster voice in heavy metal songs where, you know, it's just like, oh, oh, so, and that was another thing where it was a real hurry-up thing. So I had, you know, I had a pretty good groove going, and I needed a singer, and I realized

I'm not going to have time to get, sign some heavy metal singer who can do that, that weird voice thing. and then I thought like well who cares you can't even put it out of someone you can't tell what they're singing anyway

so I sang complete gibberish so it was so funny having people try to figure out what the lyrics was that was just going Oh my girl oh my girl

and that's great I can blow my voice down a little bit, so I... You know, even though you're not employed by WWE, your music is still playing every single week, I imagine you still get quite a few royalty checks from WWA. Yeah, well, not from WWE, but from BMI. Those are, you know, look on the back of your CD case or something, you'll see BMI or ASCAP. Those are called Performance Rights Society, and they are the organizations that,

collect royalties and distribute them to composers. Yeah, so that part's nice. So do you get more based on where it's played? Like if your theme is played on Raw versus WrestleMania, if it's played for eight minutes, like an Undertaker entrance versus 30 seconds? Oh, timing, yes, definitely. And where, yes.

Like, if you have a piece of music that's played for one minute, if it's played on USA Network for one minute, you know, you're going to make, I don't even know what per minute is. Like, let's say one minute you get $100. If that played on CBS in primetime, it could be a couple of thousand dollars. So when your themes play on Friday Night Smackdown on Fox,

much more? More, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I've never, I've actually never, you know, tried to, it's sort of hard to discern unless you've got the exact same piece of music playing on both and you can see. But yes, there's an absolute sliding scale and it's actually a big controversy going on right now with the performance rights societies because so many people are getting their content through streaming and all the composers who have lots of stuff. on streaming services are saying, you know, why are the rates so low when the vast majority of people are watching TV and movies and everything else through a streaming service? Right.

And it has to change because clearly, I mean, it's happening exponentially fast at this point, the changeover. I think the bigger problem, it's happening so fast, I believe the bigger problem now is what are these terrestrial TV stations going to do it? I mean, how is the CBS going to transition out of this, you know, to, I don't know the answer to that. I mean, is, you know, regular TV as we know are going to basically fade away. I would assume it's going to basically fade away and that new TVs will essentially just be computer and you'll turn on your computer and instead of turning to channel two you'll be

turning to cbs.com right streaming from there so where can we hear some of your other work right now that's not wrestling related because you're doing all kinds of stuff outside of wrestling um well i've got you know in a somewhat related topic to that um the way the media music industry works, every piece of music has two owners. It has the composer and it has the publisher. And if it's a situation like mine where I'm the sole composer and WWE is the sole publisher, so there are two ways of looking at it. It's like that. Either I own 50% of that composition and they own 50%, but the way the music industry deals with it is really each composition is 200%. I own 100% of the composition side.

They own 100% of the publishing side. The weirdness to that system is if you're the publisher, if Chris is the publisher, you have all the power. So Ford could come to us and say like, hey, we want to use Stone Cold Steve Austin's theme for our new F-150s. Yeah. I could say, great idea. I love that.

And you could say, no, not into it. And we're not doing it. Wow. It's that simple. And there are all sorts of, so along with that, I can't do anything with my own music because they're the publisher.

I would have to go to them for permission to say, I'd like to send this to Ford because I want to pitch an idea. Yeah. And I just want to make sure you guys would be on board if I can sell it. Because if they're not, I'm dead in a water. Which is very weird to not be able to do something with your own music. I can use it for a demo purpose, you know, for a demo reel, but that's it. So when post-W.E, I found myself in the situation that I have to create a reel of music because I've been busy for all these years, not making my own music.

And even a few songs that were my songs that I kind of, I guess you would say, loaned to WWWB, they're now mine. but there's another element in music business called Master. It's that reporting. So that recording, they own that recording, even though I own the composition side and the publishing side, they own that recording. So I can't use that recording. And this is what's happening now for anyone who are fans of Taylor Swift.

Yeah. She's been re-recording Masters. Because Scooter brought on the Masters and not her. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's, there are a lot of unfairnesses in the music industry. And boy, that's a big one that needs to be sorted out. But so in any case, I've been in the process of creating a reel. And, and that takes time to promote myself, basically.

So there's some stuff that I keep in sort of rotation on my website. mainly orchestral stuff, which I've really enjoyed taking the time to do. But right now I'm working on a bunch of songs, including a few I'm throwing out there, which are basically like entrances. Because I've had a couple of ideas where it's like I've got to do that. That's good. So. You're also scoring films, scoring TV shows as well?

No, I'm trying to. That's what I'm trying to do. And I'm just about to sign with someone in Hollywood or sort of in negotiation now. This is exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, everything's great.

It's a little scattered. And, you know, getting out of WWE, it's like going through a divorce. you know, you've been doing the same thing for so long. Yeah. There's a considerable amount of emotion that happens and readjusting yourself because, you know, you, you've, for so long, you've just gotten up every morning and you're doing the same thing and you know what's on your table. And then you get up one morning and that's no longer on the table or that person is no longer laying next to you anymore. And, you know, that takes adjustment.

Or it did for me. I think it seems obvious that you're a Hall of Famer, but do you think that WWE will induct you into their Hall of Fame? I think if they haven't already, they're not going to. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's one of those kind of pesky things where you don't want to be petty about it, but it's like you guys did fire me.

And now you want me to come back and kind of put you over by doing, you know, the Hall of Fame. So it's, it's, you know, would it be an honor? Sure. But at the same time, would it be uncomfortable? It certainly would be uncomfortable because there are a number of people there that I would be thrilled not to see again and not to have to shake their hand and pretend that we're all friendly. But I don't know. You know, it's just, it's not a big aspect of my life now.

And I'm loving what I'm doing. And, you know, one of the really exciting things and positive things after doing the WWE, thing for so long is to be able to come to the studio and write whatever you want. Yeah. You know, not being told like, okay, you know, Chris needs a theme and we need. I do. I need a theme. Yeah.

I'll do a theme for you. You want to think. Oh, my God. I would die a happy man after that. I think, I'd be thrilled to do a theme for you. What do you think would be a theme for you? What would your desk is? Boy, we could be on this for the next four hours trying to figure this out.

But I was a backyard wrestler when I was 16. And I had a rage against the machine song because I was a heel. I can't remember what it was called, but that was my theme song. I don't know. I mean, I'm... Do you be more comfortable being a baby face or a heel? I think I'd be a baby face now. I mean, I'd like to think that I'm pretty positive and charismatic and happy.

I like to smile. Yeah, you are. Yeah. That comes off. But sometimes they make the best heels. see. Because, you know, think about your easiest way is think about your favorite films in particular. The best bad guys

are the most outstanding. Cannibal Lecter. You know, they're not the steamy, ugly, dirty, you know, it's sort of trite. You know, it's like, okay, bad guy. I get it. You know, please slap me in the face again. But, you know, it's that person or like the mystery thing where there's this charming, perfect guy. It's like, well, he's not

the serial killer. I mean, my God, Evan, this guy is, this is the guy who's trying his best to save everyone and catch the serial killed. So those are the best guys to find out he's the serial killer. You know, because the good guys are only as good as the bad guys are bad. And if you're, if you're going to play Superman, you better pray that they come up with, you know, a Joker dude or Batman. Lex Luther. Who's like, he's really bad. I mean, he's really messed up sick guy.

And so that makes Batman best. better because A, it's challenging to win. It's meaningful to win. And this other guy is so bad and so scary. And even though you know it's only a movie, you can't help but think like, man, there are probably guys out there like this. And these people need to be killed, you know, and put away because, you know, that's dangerous. Yeah. So to have bad guys who are really dangerous, I mean, it'd be interesting to go to be. Also, I'm a bit of a contrarian where I don't, like, if there was a new black guy wrestler, immediately, like the last thing I want to do is hip-hop. It's like, oh, my God, okay, yeah, he's black, so there's new hip-hop, right? Yeah, yeah.

You know, just, it's like, no, how about let's do anything but hip-hop? So you say that and my first impression when we started talking about a theme for you would be something very mysterious, very dark and still could be used for your show because it would come off like, what am I doing this week? Who knows? I mean, you know, I could be interviewing Jim. I could be interviewing the rock. I could be surfing. I could be climbing a mountain. You know, I could be interviewing some beautiful woman, you know.

I like, pick up the guitar and give us a... It's like you're already, the whole upbeat, you know, healthy, good looking, handsome guy and bit and everything. You don't need music to sell that. You sell them. You've already sold it. So now you're being redundant. Your music is saying the obvious. I think you want you want music to be kind of a subtext that's saying something deeper about what you believe or what's going on underneath the circle.

This is like a master class here. I love this. But as we wrap this up, Jim, can you pick up your guitar and give me a little riff of what the Chris Van Vlead theme would sound like? I, uh, uh, no, it would be a, would be a, uh, it'd be a piano written thing. It's a piano riff. I don't, uh, oh, sorry. Uh, oh. Oh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'll never think of it.

But whatever you just came up with is good enough for me. I'll do it. I'll do it for you know, it's, it's something like it's this. something like that something in that category this has been this has been such a treat talking oh i got no it's been great to spend some time with you i love it and i want to be respectful of your time but i i end every interview talking about gratitude because it's such an important thing in my life and you see it right here i love this be great be grateful me too so i start and end every day saying out loud three things that I'm grateful for.

So I end every interview the same way. I want to ask you, Jim, what are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? I'm grateful for this period of time. I've always been a pretty instinctual person. And I feel the wave coming that, you know, there's been this huge chapter one in my life. WWE. And so I'm very grateful for this interim time because chapter two is is so eminent.

I mean like truly potentially days eminent away. Just so many different things conspiring in a good way in my life. Love it. But my wife, without question, she keeps me centered and, you know, sane and fed and all sorts of good things. And I'm grateful for just being, you know, I, you know, is uncomfortable. as I know it makes some people. I'm being dishonest if I don't say it. I've just been so blessed by God to live a great life to just have great good fortune. And in that whole relationship, I take that seriously in that I have a responsibility in that

relationship. I don't think he just feeds you stuff for free. I feel like I do my part. I work hard. I have a very strong work ethic and responsibility to what I do. But I feel like I got this great gift and I feel like it's my responsibility to get it out there. And so I'm grateful that I've had this great opportunity to get it out there through WWE. And I'm really happy to see some things opening up here to, so chapter two outlets. Give me your three. On behalf of wrestling fans all around the world, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for everything you've done. Thank you for scoring our childhoods. Thank you for scoring our adolescent years. Thank you for all of the memories that are linked to simply you just making

some incredible music. Thank you. You're welcome. Could you do us the great honor of playing us out? Sure. What do you want to hear? Oh my, what do I want to hear? Well, you know, and also be aware that, you know, like if it's a rock theme, it's not, it's just one of me, so it's not going to. Of course, I think we should go back to the piano and. Undertaker? Play the Undertaker. Oh my gosh. Weird. Goose bumps. Every. free time. Super grateful for the opportunity to have shared this time with Jim Johnston. He doesn't do a lot of these interviews. So this really, really meant a lot to me. So thank you to him for being with us. Thank you to you for being with us as well. Please share this episode. Yeah, we originally recorded

this last April, but everything he said here is so pertinent, I feel like. Share this with somebody who you know is going to love this. Take a screenshot, tag me on social media at Chris Vanfleet. And as Andrew Murray famously said, you are confined only by the walls you build yourself. Be great. Be grateful. We'll see you on the next one for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley.

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