Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy - Alex Smith, Shane Battier, & Ravi Gupta - What Makes A Glue Guy? - [Invest Like the Best, EP.387]

Starting point is 00:00:02 Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy, and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open-ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. Invest like the best is part of the Colossus family of podcasts, and you can access all our podcasts, including edited transcripts, show notes, and other resources to keep learning at join colossus.com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sum. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of positive sum. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of positive sum may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, visit psum.vc. This week's episode is special because it marks the launch of our first new show on Colossus in a long time. It's called glue guys. My guest this week are the hosts of the new show, Shane Battye, Alex Smith, and Ravi Gupta. Shane, Rovey, and

Starting point is 00:01:10 Alex's stories are each remarkable. Each has been at the very top of their profession. Shane as an NCAA and NBA champion, Alex is the first pick in the NFL draft, Pro Bowler, and 16-year NFL veteran, Rovey as a leader at KKR, and then as a critical leader turning around and building Instacart, and now as a partner at Sequoia. But those parts of their stories pale in comparison to the stories that you'll hear on Glugyes. And I suspect their next chapters will be even more interesting than their past chapters. We'll get to see in real time. For me, with the benefit of listening to more than 10 episodes already, Gleguise is already serving as an unfolding manual for how to be a professional, a teammate, a leader, and even a friend

Starting point is 00:01:48 and family member. In this episode of Invest Like the Best, we explore the general concept of Gleu Guys, which we define as the people who are obsessed with helping teams win, whether they're the leader or the newest member of the team. I'm reminded of the great Bill Russell quote, my ego demands for myself the success of my team. Before you listen, go subscribe to the new show and check out the first three episodes with the link in our show notes. Expect incredible conversations in the months to come, both between the three hosts and with guests that I'm hesitant to even mention because they will be so good and so unique. At Colossus, we are proud to partner with three such incredibly high-quality people, and we hope you enjoy this conversation and their new show.

Starting point is 00:02:28 Well, gentlemen, this is an incredibly fun opportunity to do this live and in person at Spotify. which is the first time for all of us. I've actually never done this in video, which is crazy. So it's so fun to have you guys as an excuse to do this together. And I wanted to start our conversation with some question thematically related to the concept of glue guys, which we're going to talk about and explain. But that would be the obvious boring place to start. So the framework that I was thinking through on the drive-in this morning was the relationship

Starting point is 00:02:57 and difference between raw individual talent and teamwork. And the way that those two things matter in your experience and how you thought about your teams or your business. And I want to you just open by each riffing on that a little bit because obviously there's incredible individual talent all over the place, E3 included. But ultimately, the greatest things happen typically with big teams or small teams, but teams nonetheless. And it seems like a tricky interrelationship. And I would just love to hear you as three perfect people to talk about this riff. on the relationship between talent and teamwork. Talent and teamwork.

Starting point is 00:03:35 Okay, so I'm going to stick to it from a business perspective, I guess. The first thought, Patrick, when I go to it, is, like, in investing, you know, venture firms are weird teams, right? Like, because what you kind of have is everyone does have to be pretty talented on their own, right? Otherwise, like, nobody's going to want to share in it together. But I guess, like, the tension or the thought that comes to mind on talent versus teamwork is you actually can't do it all by yourself.

Starting point is 00:04:01 because you can't cover everything, right, by nature. And it's too hard to choose it on your own. So what do I mean by that? Like, if you see something, you kind of need somebody to like spar with, you know, as you're talking about it. Like even you and me when we talk about something, even if we're not technically on a team together, right? It sharpens my thinking if we can talk about it. And I think it's just actually too hard of a game to just like figure it out.

Starting point is 00:04:31 on your own, right? So that's one part, I think, is just like the sparring partner aspect of a team. But I think the bigger thing that actually comes to mind for me is just like it's a lot more fun and that feels more sustainable if you're doing something with other people. And maybe that's specific to my personality, but I don't think it is. I think that by nature it's more sustainable to do something hard and most things worth doing are hard if you're doing it alongside other people. And so I think it might allow you to have a little bit more longevity to the talent if you're doing it alongside a team you respect and makes you better, both because it defines your talent like in the sparring partner concept, but also because it's like more fun to practice. It's more fun to like do the things that make you good rather than just relying on like the original God-given talent. That duration seems like a good excuse.

Starting point is 00:05:25 Yeah. How is it different in sports? talent's not that rare in sports like especially the higher you get like talent's everywhere like I just don't think it's that big of a rarity as people think it is especially on the professional level

Starting point is 00:05:39 everybody is good everybody's good I don't know if it's like an NBA shame but like there are guys in the NFL that aren't like you've never heard of you would turn on the film right like that week you're prepping you turn on the film

Starting point is 00:05:54 you know their roster like hey, I'm looking at these corners of these defensive ends that I've never heard of. I've never heard of. I don't even know the college they went to. And then you watch the film, you're like, holy shit. This guy is a monster. Like the talent is everywhere. And I've played with quarterbacks that, like, again, undrafted, you know, again, went to some D2 school.

Starting point is 00:06:19 And I'm like, this guy came in. I'm like, this guy can sling it. Like, this guy is a good player. Like, the difference between me and him, and I was the number one picking the first. draft is so small, right? And I think what is way more rare are great teams, right? And I think by nature of the great teams are really only formed to do things that you can't do yourself, right? Challenges and obstacles that you can't achieve by yourself require great teams because you can go farther and do things together that you just never thought imaginable. And I am like living, walking proof of that,

Starting point is 00:06:52 Right, but especially the quarterback position. I mean, you're just given way too much credit for things that you had nothing to do with and are lifted up by so many people around you. And then to even take it beyond sports, like, certainly what a lot of people know me for, like my injury and coming back, like, as much as I would love to say, like, man, this was just personal triumph in, like, overcoming this. That'd be a joke. It would be an absolute joke. Like phenomenal teams that help me go do that.

Starting point is 00:07:25 Like again, and I think that's probably at the crux of why glue guys even, like, what we're talking about, because it is hard to do. Great teams are crazy rare. It is a special thing. And how do you create it? What makes it up? And I think that it's a thousand things. It's a thousand ingredients. And that's what makes it fascinating, right?

Starting point is 00:07:49 And I think that's what's so cool about the core. between business and sports is that so many of them are transferable. It's no different. And sports sometimes is just higher stakes on TV kind of thing, that kind of format, and obviously competitive. But I don't think it's any different in business and investing. Well, my experience is very different. I just wanted to be loved.

Starting point is 00:08:14 Everything I learned about being a great teammate, I was forced to learn when I was seven, six-year-old kindergartener, right? And it was through my, which at the time, the toughest thing I ever been through my life, just being different. Look, I grew up in a small town outside Detroit, Michigan, Birmingham, Michigan. I was the only kid in town that had a black dad and white mom. Okay. On picture day, I was the only kid to get a pick on picture day, all right? I'm under the King Day. I was expecting everything about black culture from the dawn of civilization, right? And here I am, just trying to learn and fit in, like, be like everybody else. All right, I was a foot tall and everybody else.

Starting point is 00:08:52 All right. I was that kid who had to carry a birth certificate with him to the Little League game because no parent thought I was eight years old. And I was poor. We had nothing. We had enough growing up, but we had nothing extra. You know, I remember the roof leaked. And I was in charge of putting the pots underneath the leaks in the roof.

Starting point is 00:09:10 All right. All my jeans had iron on patches, right? And so I was never embarrassed about it because it was just what it was. So, like, my point is, I was always. different. Always different. I was the mix. I tell people I was mixed tall and poor. Okay. Now you're tall dark and handsome. Now I'm tall. I am. Funny how that happens, right? There. And what I realize in kindergarten, the most important time for me was at recess. And it was at the kickball field, the baseball field, in the sandlot, in the football field. And I realized that when I helped my friends win, I wasn't the black kid. I wasn't the poor. kid. I wasn't a tall kid. I was just a kid. And so I became obsessed, not really with what I did, but what we did. Did we win? And did I help my friends win? Because that moment was pure. And as young kids, you just want to fit in as humans. We just want to fit in. We're not trying to stick out,

Starting point is 00:10:07 right? But especially as a kid. And so it really shaped my idea of like what is, what's your role in a team is just to make people better around you and make, give people who are in the best chance to win. Because nothing beats winning. Nothing, right? I was addicted to winning from Little League championships with all my buddies. Nothing better than that. Get nice coming with your friends. And so it's no different when you win an NBA championship.

Starting point is 00:10:37 It's with your friends. And what can we do together to do great things? And so being a glue guy, when, when Ruby brought us together, there are so much many folks out there who, whether it's in a business setting or a sports setting, who never experienced that feeling. So we're here to share that. And we don't think what we did is magical by any means, but we all played really, really important roles and some pretty cool experiences.

Starting point is 00:11:06 And we felt those experiences and the people on those journeys shaped why we're here today. And so that's why I'm proud to be a glue guy and proud to. to start this journey with these guys. When I was thinking about the question, it's so easy, and the world in general goes this direction, which is it's just much easier to tell individual stories. It's much easier to talk about Jordan and his greatness. We're filming this in the middle of the Olympics,

Starting point is 00:11:31 and there's lots of great individual talents, where the stories are just so compelling. They're portable. They're easy to share and think about, and we love building people up. We like the Steve Jobs version of the Apple story. But a point that Alex made, which I really want to spend,

Starting point is 00:11:46 maybe we spend literally the whole time on this is how rare an incredible team is. I think each of you has had the good fortune of being on at least one, probably multiple, incredible teams, individual units of people going after something together. I'd love you to each visualize the team that comes to mind most quickly and then maybe share some of the attributes of what was going on in the team that you think were the ingredients that made it a great team because it's just more complicated. There's more degrees of freedom. It's harder to explain, but it really seems worthwhile trying to suss out and explain as a group here.

Starting point is 00:12:21 So what are those things that come to mind in ways that you would describe the team that first came? And I'm really curious which team comes to mind. It's hard. It's like having children, Patrick. You don't have a favorite child. You love them all differently in their own special kind of way. But one did come to mind first. Okay, I'll bite. I'll bite. I'll bite. Look, I've won multiple championships across different teams and platforms. My 2001 Duke Blue Devil basketball team, by the advanced metrics, one of the greatest teams in modern history. I remember watching it distinctly well.

Starting point is 00:13:04 Even Alex as a Duke hater would agree with that. We were pretty good. We were pretty good. You can't leave out LeBron, D. Wade, and Chris Vosch, the Miami Heat back-to-back champions. You've got an embarrassment of riches in his question. Yeah, no. But, like, thinking about the threads, the common threads between those teams, and something I talk a lot about with anyone who listen is, is those teams were marked by high trust and high, what I call mission focus, right?

Starting point is 00:13:31 The trust was instant. We were able to talk to each other, look each other in the eye, and the feedback was instantaneous. because we trusted we all had each other's back. We had the best interest because we were here for one reason, and that was to raise a banner. And that's where the mission focus comes in. And everyone is rowing in the same direction. And when you have an environment, and from the coach, from the teams to the managers,

Starting point is 00:13:59 assistant coaches, everybody associated with that run has ultimate trust and ultimate focus on while we're here. amazing, amazing things happen. And you don't understand that until adversity hits. And that's the other common theme, right? I've been on some great teams when adversity hits, they crumble because they lack mission focus, because they lack trust. And so you never know when you're going to have to lean on those two things, but those are the two most important factors in any successful cohesive team. Maybe just to pick on the first example you said, what allowed that trust to exist? at that Duke team.

Starting point is 00:14:37 Like, what was, trust is great. I think everyone wants that, and it's an amazing feeling. But how did you get it? Well, Coach K, obviously, is mine, the greatest basketball coach, the greatest coach in sports. And there are a lot of things that cause uncertainty in teams or cause mistrust, uncertainty is one of them. When you have a strong leader that removes uncertainty.

Starting point is 00:15:00 And, look, Coach K did a great job of defining roles, but also given a space to, to take ownership in the team. And there was no doubt every day we walked into the locker room why we were there. Right. And that's to be the best team possible to improve every single day. And if we do that, championships and winning is a byproduct of that. Right.

Starting point is 00:15:21 And so we were almost freed by expectations. Everyone said, was it super high pressure? No, it wasn't high pressure because it was very simple daily goals of getting better, playing together, trusting each other, looking each other in the eye. It sounds super corny, but that was the expectation. And the uncertainty was removed from why we were there.

Starting point is 00:15:45 We were free. Alex, what team came into mind for you? Thinking back to my college days, like that, that, you know, and I played for Urban, who was a, you know, I would, I would almost call like a psychologist as much as a coach. And I think there's a there's certainly selflessness is one of the first things that comes to mind. And I think where you could put that with trust, right?

Starting point is 00:16:13 Like the mission focus, like the team's bigger than us, right? And everybody thinks that, right? Everybody's putting the team before themselves. And I think that is critical for any great team, right? That again, and you want that. And I think at the core of everybody, you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself, right? Like, that's why you're there. That's why you're willing to sacrifice and do so much.

Starting point is 00:16:37 And I think at the core of that comes the motivation from a good place. And I'm fascinated around motivation because I grew up and I never imagined in my wildest dreams I'd play professional sports. I was like too realistic a kid, right? Like, I just heard the odds. It's not on the cards for me. I grew up a very normal kid. I wasn't like a crazy standout by any means growing up. And I had one college scholarship offer, right?

Starting point is 00:17:06 And that was my dream. My dream growing up, like I love Saturdays. Like I loved college football. I loved again getting your education, the idea of the student athlete running out on the field and like the student section going crazy and that relationship with the student section and we're all part of this great big culture that we've been craving. Right. And you're just a role in that and getting your education.

Starting point is 00:17:27 and obviously then moving, you know, forward with your life. And like one school gave me that opportunity. And there certainly when I got there was this, you know, I had it along with probably everybody else there that like, were we good enough, right? Like, was I deserving of this? Was I good enough? And certainly we all embodied that. And this comes back to urban.

Starting point is 00:17:49 Like we all had an edge. The entire team had an edge and had something to prove. And so I took the field with a fearlessness. every single game like like you know kind of like fuck you like you know excuse my language like I'm I'm out here to do something right like and I don't care I wasn't worried about making a mistake no one were no one was expecting anything anyway right and and I think we played on with an edge uh as a team and we're out to do something we were a little school in the mountain west at the time they had this PCS thing and we wanted to be the first school they they didn't allow us

Starting point is 00:18:27 in the club, you know, and we wanted to break the wall down. And that was the goal and everybody was roan in the same direction. And you woke up with a singular focus every day that that's what we wanted to go do and it was important to all of us. And then to go achieve it, obviously, you know, it's like the best feeling in sports, right? To be accountable. Like to quickly flip on that, it was, you know, it was only months later that I got drafted with the number and overall pick. And everything changed for me. Everything changed. Right. And everything changed. And like, I, that courage that I took the field with, that fearlessness that our entire team embodied, like, I didn't have that anymore. And in fact, I was on the other side of it.

Starting point is 00:19:08 Like, I was, the expectations were so great. I had so much self-doubt, right, that, like, I was in over my head that, and I was scared to death. Like, I thought I had to be perfect. And I was scared to death to make a mistake. And I walked out onto the field. I did, and I did everything, not just on the field. Like, I did everything tiptoed around on eggshells. And it was, it, I mean, it was, it was so burdensome, like the weight that I walked around in and it never left.

Starting point is 00:19:37 Can you zoom in on that a little bit? Because I suspect almost nobody has experienced the sort of external pressure that you're, that you had and you're talking about, like the world, you know, watching and aware of your performance. But I also suspect that basically everyone listening has had some period of extraordinary self-doubt. and it's hard to get through. Zoom in on like the emotions and like what that was literally like, did you feel that in the shower? Did you feel that it lying in? Do you have trouble sleeping? Like, how did it manifest?

Starting point is 00:20:07 All the time. Yeah. Lying in bed at night, having dinner with my friends or a girlfriend at the time who became my wife, certainly at the facility. And it mounted towards Sunday. I mean, to the point, I couldn't eat before games. You're throwing up. You know, you're sick. Like, you're just.

Starting point is 00:20:26 all consuming and it's all negative, right? Every, you know, I think we've all had that voice in our head. And at that point, I had 15 of them, right? And it just, it drowned out everything else. And was terrified of the word bust. And I think the biggest thing looking back at that time is I tried to pretend like it wasn't happening. And that was the biggest problem. And that was the biggest I like I'm a tough football player and I'm not talking to anybody about this and I'm just going to bury it and pretend like it's not happening and hopefully I get through this thing and I think in hindsight that was like the worst thing I could have done right the best thing I could have done was like listen this is freaking ridiculously hard what you're getting asked to do right like this is absurd absurdly hard right and also like in that like confronting that, I think also confronting the fact that, and I didn't know this at the time, but like, listen, because there were guys in the locker room, older guys that, like, I absolutely, like, they might as well, like, I idolized, right? And I definitely didn't think that they had self-doubt,

Starting point is 00:21:42 right? Like, well, they don't, they aren't feeling, they aren't dealing with the same things I'm dealing with, which is completely wrong in hindsight. Like, I, you know, played a long enough, a bunch of Gold Jacket members. One just went in, Patrick Willis, like, everybody, like these guys everybody deals with self-doubt it is the most human of emotions and so I just had no idea in Einstein again and just kind of like pretended like it wasn't there and it just festered and got worse and grew and got worse um to the point yeah where like I think I eventually had to hit rock bottom you know um when was that when was rock bottom oh man You know, so I had spent, you know, several years ignoring this and just unhappy.

Starting point is 00:22:36 Not, I don't, you know, football was a game I loved. And all of a sudden, like, I'm just, I don't want to go to work. You're getting ready to run out of a tunnel to go play a game. And, like, I'm, though I don't want to be there. Like, are you kidding me? Like, if you had told me that, you know, a year earlier, like, let's go. And, gosh, I think this was, like, five or six years in my career. At a home game in Candlestick, we're playing the Philadelphia Eagles.

Starting point is 00:23:01 I think it's on a Sunday night. So primetime game, you know, the whole country watching on NBC. And we're playing the Eagles fittingly Andy Reid on the other sideline. And, you know, they were good and we were not. We were talented, but not very good. And I had some turnovers in the second half. We're losing. And Mike Singletary.

Starting point is 00:23:26 confronts me on the sideline. And like our defense had given up. I don't know how many points at that. Like we were losing. It wasn't my fault. I did. I had some bonehead plays, but like it certainly wasn't my,

Starting point is 00:23:34 my doing. And he gets in a confrontation with me on the sideline. An outer body experience to be on national TV. And here's this guy that like Mike Singletary me, played linebacker, playing quarterback. It's very, very different things.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And I felt like he had irrational expectations of what it took to play quarterback. Right? and how dependent you are on so many other things, right, to have a chance of success. And so he's in my face on the sidelines, again on national TV, and incredibly uncommon. I mean, something I wasn't prepared for as a young man. And in the same instant, you know, I'd had this bonehead fumble or I was trying to make this play. And shortly thereafter, the whole stadium is chanting the backup quarterback's name. who was David Carr.

Starting point is 00:24:27 So I'm at my home stadium, which, by the way, that entire time, five years, like, I looked forward to road games because it, like, it did ease the pressure slightly, right? Like playing in front, which is crazy, right? Because home field advantage is a very real thing, like as a quarterback. Like, the rest of my career was flipped, right?

Starting point is 00:24:46 Like, as it should be. And so you have 80,000 people chanting David Carr. I've got this head coach in my face I can feel the cameras on me and, you know, just like, I think finally then, like, realizing this isn't working. What I've been doing is this is not working. I've been trying so hard to, like, please these very people. Like, I want nothing more than to validate my draft status, right?

Starting point is 00:25:15 Like, I was drafted to, like, turn this franchise around. And I want so badly to do that for everybody. and like this whole thing is flipped upside down now. And like here I am in this moment. And so that certainly was probably rock bottom. Luckily, it coincided with, you know, a coach that really changed my career shortly thereafter. I mean, it wasn't a couple months later.

Starting point is 00:25:39 We hired Jim Harpa. You know, and again, it's the same motivators there, like to flip it the other way that he helped me, and certainly some of my teammates get back to a point of like, right, fearlessness. selflessness, um, and a healthy perspective and motivation towards like a,

Starting point is 00:26:00 a challenge. Did you just decide? Like how did, like, like you have to walk us. No, I didn't know. No,

Starting point is 00:26:05 no, I didn't decide. Certainly that was rock bottom of like, I think that was recognition of, I'm not doing this anymore. Like this same, like I'm not ignoring what's going on. Um, my own,

Starting point is 00:26:16 again, consumed with my own self-doubt. Like, I'm not going to just keep blocking this out, pretending like it's not happening. Like, that was the moment I think where it was like, very real. And Jim, Jim played quarterback for 15 years. He played for the San Diego Chargers. I grew up in San Diego. I remember watching him play as a kid. He'd had a ton of success at Stanford. Here he comes, you know, over to the Niners with us. And so he, very quickly, he could relate. Like, he played quarterback. And he's certainly, everything he, the way he approached the game, his enthusiasm towards the game, his gratefulness towards the game, was a

Starting point is 00:26:53 infectious. And I've told this guy's like that he literally said the same words before we left the locker room right before the game. Right. So you're fully dressed. You've gone through all your warmups. You're getting ready to run out onto the field on Sunday. My stress and anxiety was always at its highest in that moment, right? Like my self-doubt was at it maxed out. And Jim Arbaugh's last words to us, always, every single week, were the same. And you. And you're just, you know, He would say play as hard as you can, as fast as you can, as long as you can, and don't worry. Right? Like the last two words he said were don't worry.

Starting point is 00:27:33 Like he, like I had just spent six years worrying. That's all I did was worried. I was just constant worry. And they really just resonated with me. And I think combined with like, listen, I would be remiss to say like certainly like the entire coaching staff, that same team the year prior when I was getting, you know, face to face with, you know, my singletarian, getting, you know, chanting the backup's name, I think we won five or six, five games.

Starting point is 00:28:02 I mean, the very next year we won 13 and went the NFC championship game. The year after that, we won another 13 and went to the Super Bowl. Like, we had better coaching staff. They were smarter. They put together better plans. Like, we were coached better. Like, I don't want to, like, pretend like that wasn't a part of this. But there were also this other big chunk that's not technical.

Starting point is 00:28:20 And that's so much of these harbiasms. that I think great leaders and founders have and coaches. And that was a big part of it for me. And it had a huge effect on me in that moment. Incredible. Have you ever reached the rock bottom professionally? Yeah, I mean, not like that. I mean, there's never been people chanting the backup's name.

Starting point is 00:28:47 The rock bottom, for me, there's probably two or three times it's happened, but I'll give you one. The Instacart moment of just like, oh, God, this is broken. We're losing $16 on every order. We're burning $12 million a month. Like, literally I get the financials and I call the controller thinking that he made a mistake and I'm kind of annoyed. Hey, man, can you send me the accurate financials?

Starting point is 00:29:11 And he's like, what's wrong? And I'm like, this says we're burning $12 million a month. We're going to go out of business soon. He's like, no, no, those are right. Like, yeah, like that moment was terrible. And like you feel like you're going to be a failure. You feel like you've let your family down. I took a 90% pay cut to go from KKR to Instacart.

Starting point is 00:29:27 So, like, all of a sudden, I'm like, what am I going to tell Avni? When I go home that, like, I did this out of, like, just pure self-son. I had a good job, right? And then, I mean, you know, it's so funny because, like, the story you want to tell is, like, and then I just buckled down and I went to work. Like, the first thing I thought about doing was go back, you know? Like, maybe I can quit, you know? And then, like, and, like, I didn't even just think about it.

Starting point is 00:29:47 Like, I'm like, I don't know. My family's from India. Like, we, like, want to make sure we're going to be okay. So like I didn't even just think about it. I kind of like softly explored whether there was like some path back. And like I didn't go all the way down the path, but like it wasn't that it was just an idle thought, you know? And then of course like, you know, we were able to fix it and whatever. But it comes back to your point on like what makes a good team.

Starting point is 00:30:09 Like dude, like for me, I think shared purpose is like I've been on, I've been very blessed to be on great teams. Look, but the one that comes to mind, like these guys were a little. and then they hedged a little bit on what team. My favorite team I've ever been looking to be a part of was the Instacart team. Okay? Like that is my favorite child as it relates to your teams. Yeah. If I had an IPO, that'd be my favorite team too. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:33 But wait a little. Hey, listen. Hey, listen, I'm just saying. Wedding on a land there. I'm just saying. Working for a long time. You know, okay. But like, so shared purpose, big deal.

Starting point is 00:30:42 And you guys said, that's like, you're there for some reason that's bigger than you. But, like, just to put a finer point out, like, it matters because all of a sudden, every debate actually has an answer, which is like, well, what is better for the shared purpose rather than like anybody else's agenda? Like, that's a big deal, I think. The second thing is it has to be really hard. It has to be hard for you to like care about it. You know, like the hard is a feature because all of a sudden, like it's so much sweeter when you get through it. But it's also that you have to give all of yourself. And it does require all of you to be good. And so like an Instacart, like all of us had to be good. Like we were going up against like a behemoth.

Starting point is 00:31:18 right and everybody thought we sucked and like you need that extra motivation and all that so like i think like it has to be hard and then for me this is something i care about it doesn't have to be for everybody but like you got to have some joy in it at least for me for me to have it be my favorite thing like you know this is a silly example but like the current CEO co-CEO of kkR is a guy named scottnuttall and every kkkr is amazing place but obviously most of you'll talk about henry and george there But the current co-CEo is Scott Nuttall, and when I was just getting out of school, like two years in, I went and worked to KKR, whenever Scott would talk on stage, any time, he just looked like he was having a good time. And that, like, really sat with me because, like, I, like, think a lot about where I'm spending my time and why am I gone from my family and all these things. And Scott always looked like he was enjoying himself. And that always sat with me. He's like, well, man, this could be fun.

Starting point is 00:32:10 We can, like, get important things done, but it doesn't have to be that we, like, don't like each other or enjoy it. And like, that is a part of who I am. Like, I like laughing. I like doing that. And certainly if I'm going to spend a lot of time somewhere, I needed to be fun. So one of the thing that was cool about Instacart for me was I got to put my stamp on the culture, right? It wasn't just a culture that I had to, like, join in. And one of my favorite parts was I felt like we had joy in the culture.

Starting point is 00:32:33 And that's what when I hear Alex talk about his moments, like, it's just like football stops being fun. Well, it's like, man, that's like really sad. Like, you're never going to be great if there's not like some joy to it. I'd love to zoom in on the on the hard part because I was kind of distinctive from the other two answers. I was with kareem our friend kareem yesterday from thrive and he has this beautiful idea, which is that small ideas attract a lot of competition and because they're easier to do. And so people, you know, it's kind of default like something that's simple and easy. Whereas like SpaceX or something, not a lot of SpaceX competitors because it's insanely and possibly hard.

Starting point is 00:33:10 And I'd love to hear examples that come to mind from each of you or from anyone on what that means in practice. So, you know, working with Coach K or on whatever team we're talking about, like zoom in on the hard. Like what help us understand what hard feels like or looks like in practice or in a moment. I think about the hardest time in my four years at Duke was my last game at home against University of Maryland. It's my senior night. We lose. Not only that are our all ACC Center, Future Pro, Future 15-year Pro, and Center, Carlos Boozer, breaks his foot. Okay?

Starting point is 00:33:49 So we lose for our rival. We lose our center, starting center, for what it seems like the rest of the year. Okay, we have one game left against North Carolina, our vaunted rival. And at that moment, you know, I came back, I could have gone into the NBA early, I came back for a championship run.

Starting point is 00:34:07 At that moment, it was the first time I ever had pity for myself. And of course, all the haters came out in the media and the fans. Duke's dead. No booze or no chance. They can't be Carolina. I think Alex has a tweet on that from like 2001. I think he does. And so we actually went to practice the next day.

Starting point is 00:34:27 And we're all moping around. And Coach K boots us out of practice. Boot kicks us out. He says, get out of my gym. Come back when you're ready to practice. All right. So we go in the locker room and I'm throwing chairs. And I say, guys, you don't understand.

Starting point is 00:34:40 Like you're all, you're all super young. You have more chances. This is it for me. Conceivably, we could get blown up by Carolina, we could go to ACC tournament and lose that game and then losing the first round by to a 16th seed. And my career is over and I have nothing to show for it. And I'm emotional and crying. I'm pretty slow a guy, but I'm crying.

Starting point is 00:34:58 And I said, we're better than this. You know, this is not who we are. And so we compose ourselves and went back out to the court and said, hey, coach, we're ready to practice. And Coach K looked us in the eye and said, I'm going to ask every one of you a question. And I want you to answer from your heart. And he asked this, do you trust me and do you trust in my plan? And if you do, we will win a national championship. Laughable.

Starting point is 00:35:29 We just lost boozer. It's not looking good for the home team here. Coach K went on the line. Looked us in the eye. I said, do you believe in me? Do you believe in my plan? do you believe will be national champions? And we all said yes.

Starting point is 00:35:41 And after that, he unleashed this brand new plan. We played super small. We inserted Reggie Love, who was more famously Obama's body man, as a 6-5 center who guarded Brendan Haywood, who was given away, you know, eight inches and 200 pounds to him the next game. And we were going to shoot 53-pointers, overwhelm them with speed and three-point shooting. Okay? And it was a brilliant plan that no one saw coming. And to Coach Kay's point, he said, look, we are built for this moment.

Starting point is 00:36:15 We're not going to win the national championship because we change something right now. We're going to win the national championship because our habits are pure and we are preparing for this single hard moment. And nobody flinched. Right. And that's the difference. Again, it's like the analogy of pounding on the rock. You just don't know when that rock is going to break. You don't know what is going to be the differentiator when you face that adversity.

Starting point is 00:36:41 And so it was the old next man up. Reggie Loeb gets inserted into the lineup. We go to Carolina. We beat them by 12. All right. We go to the ACC championship, win the ACC championship, go to the NCAA tournament. Carlos Boozer miraculously comes back from a broken foot. And we win the national championship.

Starting point is 00:37:02 And our average margin of victory was 12 points. We beat every team we played by double digits. To your point, Robbie, like, yes, it's more meaningful when it's hard. Yes. Right. And when there's risk, when there's risk involved, and you're, for us, for the athletes, you know, I was at risk of losing face. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:21 And being embarrassed that I lost my last three games to some chumps. Yes. Right. And here I am this guy, but I couldn't get it done. But again, it wasn't about me. It was about our journey. It was about our team. And what did we need to do?

Starting point is 00:37:35 to adapt to change to the adversity to get to get to our ultimate goal, which we did. And now, you know, look, the winners were at the history books. So it's a great story now. It wasn't very fun. We were going through it. But it's something that, you know, Coach Kay is famous for. And I'm a better person, man, father, husband because I went through that experience. Isn't it always like that, though?

Starting point is 00:38:01 Yeah. Like in hindsight, when you're in the middle of it, And I like this is like the I always find it funny like I love like the office space thing right Like when the guy's talking about How do you know what you're supposed to do in life? And it's like well the question is the counselor question is like Well if you had a million dollars then what would you do? And the guy's like nothing

Starting point is 00:38:21 You know like I would just do nothing I think there's this false sense that like we'll do what you love Like that idea of love and that you it should all just be like super enjoyable I don't, I totally, like, I completely agree, Revi, like, it has to be hard. Like, that has to be inherent in it. You know, that there has to be something at risk to go try to take that on and the potential to fail. I think if you're crazy enough, there is joy in the misery. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:54 I mean, you have a patch on your backpack that says embrace the suck. What teammate taught each of you the most about being a good teammate? A couple things come to mind for me there. Like, I very distinctly remember when I got, again, getting drafted. And there was this big stigma. You know, I played in the shotgun in college and spread offense. And, you know, there was this big stigma that I played in a gimmicky college offense. And I couldn't play in a quote unquote pro style offense.

Starting point is 00:39:22 And so, like, I had to be able to play from under center and, you know, be a pocket passer and be all these things. And so this was something that I had to prove to everybody that I could do. And so I get drafted. and I'm running this West Coast offense, quote unquote, in my rookie year. Then my first couple years, like, I'll never forget getting ready to go play in the NFL. And I had no idea what I was doing, right? Like, and sitting and watching film because quarterbacks watch film and they, you know, they were prepared for the game and they spend hours.

Starting point is 00:39:52 And I like, I do that. Like, I'm, you know, like, that's, I can do that. And like, so I would just, I remember like Wednesday nights and Thursday nights, like, I would just be in the film. room till like nine, ten at night watching. And I had no idea what I was doing. I was just wasting time, right? Like, and I was by myself. Okay. The other two QBs at the time had combined one start and like we're at home at four o'clock. And like, I remember like just being there, watching film on myself and just having no idea what I was doing and it not helping, right? And I still go out there and

Starting point is 00:40:25 just like suck. And so. And I felt very long. alone, okay? Very alone in that. And so that I, you asked about teammates. And I think there's definitely a teammate that had the most profound impact on my career. And this was in hindsight. His name is Blake Costanzo. I told these guys this story. Like, he was a third string linebacker. He, again, I don't know what college he went to. If you looked at him, if you ran into him on the street, you would have no idea he played professional football. Like, he didn't look the part at all. And he was on every special teams, right? Like, he was on kickoff return, kickoff, punt, punt return. And every team has these guys. There's like five of them that are on all these

Starting point is 00:41:14 core special teams. They're all backups. They're not starters on offensive defense or defense. They don't get any like limelight. Nobody knows their names. And Blake, man, like loved what he did. Like loved running down on kickoff. And it's this just crazy play, right? Like they're out. lot on it for a while. And he loved it. And like just came to practice every day with like an energy and and like a joy. And again, before games, right? Like I told you guys, like that's when I was at my worst, like sitting on my stool just like, you know, in my own head worrying. Blake there before games, again, as we creep towards kickoff, it just would like be, the energy level would just go up. And he would run around. He had this saying. And he would. And he would run around. He had to

Starting point is 00:42:00 saying and he would run around the locker room and he would like literally get in guys face like he'd come over and be like Shane are you going to live today because I'm going to live right and I'm like I remember like sitting there like I'm the quarterback I'm the number one overall pick and like I'm so worried again and I've been pretending like that this isn't hard right like that I like again and here's this guy like I mean like third string linebacker and he is like confronting the problem right like it is man, this thing is hard what we're doing, and I'm going to go out there despite all of that, right? And I'm going to live on the other side of the coin, like the courage side again. And I was in the fear kind of side if there were two mindsets. And I would go watch him.

Starting point is 00:42:45 And he, like, by no means was he perfect. But man, he played fearless. Like, and it was his, more than the words, although I love the, you know, are you going to live? But like, it was how he went about it, right? And how he lived his life. and how we attacked the problem, that was the biggest example and had a huge profound effect on me. And like, it became this challenge to myself that, like, I stole from him. And I was like, are you going to live?

Starting point is 00:43:11 Like, man, are you going to be present? Because you've been gone for six years. Like, you've been out there on the field, but you're not there. And he probably had no idea. In fact, I talked about it. I know he had no idea the effect he had on me at the time.

Starting point is 00:43:23 And I think that's the cool thing when I try to talk, like the power of teams. And this is, again, to kind of bring it. I guess full circle. I get asked all the time about the Mahomes mentoring him. Why'd you do it? And like I do go back to,

Starting point is 00:43:36 I was alone in those meaning rooms, like watching film and had no idea what I was doing. And it sucked. And like, Patrick and I, and it wasn't any, like I didn't whisper any like words of, yeah, like that's just not, he got a front row view

Starting point is 00:43:52 right alongside me to go see all those things, to watch me watch film, to watch me prepare to play a game, to like, you know, all the little things. And so, and that's what mentorship is, you know, as a side of, as a part of being a teammate. I mean, I'm thinking about the exact same thing you are. The aspect of mentorship on a team is something that's not talked about enough.

Starting point is 00:44:18 And there was a moment in my career that I can point to. I was a freshman, a hotshot freshman at Duke University. And here I was, I was a national player of the year. you know, with number one recruiting class, with the number one team in the season, going into the season, okay? Elton Brand and all these guys. And our preseason training was really difficult.

Starting point is 00:44:39 Part of our success was we were just in better shape than every team. And there was one particular drill called a 17 across. And the 17 across was 17 wits of the basketball court in one minute. Okay? And if one person missed, put 60 seconds back on the clock and run it again. So, like, I used to, like, have nightmares about this. So I'll never forget going over from Cameron Indoor Stadium to Card Gymnasium where we practice and head conditioning.

Starting point is 00:45:05 And I said to nobody in particular, man, I hate 17 to cross. And just then our senior captain, Steve Wojo to the layperson, all five foot eight of them, stops, turns around, looks at me and says, you know what I hate? losing, man, I felt yay big. I felt yay big. And in one little moment, I understood what it was to be a member of the Duke basketball team. And it started with no complaining, right? And I started just to take all my cues from the senior leadership on that team, the Steve Bojahowskies, the Trajan Langdon's, the,

Starting point is 00:45:56 and Rashaa McLeod's, just how they carry themselves. They were Duke basketball, you know. Regardless of what I accomplished in high school and all the fanfare I came in with my freshman class, like, I wanted to be like them. And they set the standard. They were the first ones there. They were the last ones to leave. They never complained.

Starting point is 00:46:15 They always showed strength. They never showed that they were maybe anxiety ridden, always confident. Man, yeah, I want to be like Trajan. I want to be like Wojo. And then funny thing happens, you get older, you find yourself, you know, you're the senior captain. And you feel this, this duty to teach the younger guys, guys like Carlos Boozer and Jason Williams and Mike Dunley, if you come behind you, yeah, this is what it means to be part of this program, right? It's not about just winning games or making shots. It's about how you carry yourself, how we work, the lack of excuses, right?

Starting point is 00:46:51 Look each other in the eye. And that's how tradition is continued. When you sort of just pass on the standards of what we stand for. And it's understood. And it's often unspoken. That's where the magic, that's where the good stuff happens. So my answer to this, I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. So it's cool to talk about it.

Starting point is 00:47:19 I won't go into a lot of detail. I was like, Shane has actually been a lot of. that for me, right? Like, you know, I think Shane is, we haven't like worked together, but like, he is my teammate. He is somebody that I look up to on being an amazing teammate. And I think it's, it is a great example of like the role you can play within a team and the everyday leadership. I've told you this before Patrick, but the first time Shane and I had lunch together, I went to the bathroom. And before I came back, I saw him, he was cleaning my seat because they were a little like moisture on it. And I was like, man, that's like something my mom would do, you know? And

Starting point is 00:47:48 like, it's just like a really like, all right, we're in this. We're together. You know, and like, I think that that attitude is something I've seen. But the person I actually came to mind from work context. This woman named Michelle Swanakal, who I worked with at Instacart. And she's still there. She's there before me, a full-time employee. And there after I left as a full-time employee. And even though I'm still like involved, she was like, they're there.

Starting point is 00:48:08 Okay. So the reason that I thought of her on like the what it teaches you to be a good teammate is like first she'd gotten there. She's one of the first like 10 employees. And she joined as like, I don't know, I was a city manager or something. But then she had done just so many different things. She had been there for a few years by the time I got there. She started out managing a city, which meant she was like hiring a bunch of shoppers. Then she was, you know, doing expansion stuff, like going to new cities.

Starting point is 00:48:34 Then she was, you know, back to managing San Francisco. Then just kind of a whole collection of different things. She had this great interview question. She would ask people about like this elaborate set of situations of like, what do you do if this happens? and the fridge breaks at the Pretrero Hills, you know, a safe way. And the answer is instead of like all the analysis, it's like,

Starting point is 00:48:54 I go fix the fucking fridge, right? And just like, she would just like embodied this culture of like, we go do things, but you also do everything. She just like did each thing. She became like the director of culture. Now she's like the VP of HR,

Starting point is 00:49:05 but she just like did everything. And I think what it taught me was one, like the only team that matters is the whole team, you know, like just the company, right? The second thing that matters like there's going to be people here that outlive you, you know, and like the standard and the place that you're serving is actually,

Starting point is 00:49:22 like, there is an institution here. And then the third thing was that like there's people that rely on you, you know, there's like people that depend on you to be good. And like, I'll tell you, like, one of the things that Shane and I connect on and Alex and I connect on is this like need to buy in. It's like too easy to be cool, right? And to kind of like, well, I'm going to be okay even if this doesn't work out. Right. And I think this is very true in like business settings. People don't give all of themselves of the place, particularly when there's risk. She's like, I don't want to be branded as a failure, right? Like, I still want to be successful, you know, if this thing doesn't work out.

Starting point is 00:49:55 And I think part of what Michelle instilled in me was like, she was all in. She was like, she was Instacart to the core. She would, like when she would wear the jersey, right, when she would wear the shirt, like, she wore it with pride. And I was like, I got to be like, well, I'm okay, even if we don't win. I'm going to be fine. It's like, no, I got to like jump in the pool. I got to be all in.

Starting point is 00:50:14 And people have got to know that it's okay. be all in. It's okay not to be cool. And they got to see a leader doing that too. Glugale. Glugale. One thing we haven't talked about is all the way to the top level here, getting the team together in the first place. I know you've studied actually this in some detail. And I'm sure we've all thought about it. But you've got to get the coaches. You got to get the, I mean, I guess there's a GM at the very top or something, but someone's got to put all these people together in the first place. What did you learn in that exercise about what makes for a great team or a great

Starting point is 00:50:44 teammate in data qualitatively, quantitatively, however you studied it? Well, the first lesson we learned, we did a multi-year study on just what do successful teams look like across all industries, not just sports. We're trying to find the glue guys in sports, but we looked at military teams, we looked at business teams, we looked at families, any venture that involves more than one person. And where it starts is obviously with someone coming up with an idea that people can get behind. Okay. That they were able to communicate why they're there, you know, how we're going to launch this plan and why we're going to be successful, right?

Starting point is 00:51:33 And I built the analytics department for the Miami Heat when I was there many, many years ago. and the goal of creating a world-class data team in a franchise that was a little foreign to data analytics was a bold statement. And when I went to the lunchroom and said this is what we're going to do, I got some weird stares. But after five years, we created a world-class analytics department. It is those catalysts that I talked about, the energizers who are on the ground, who are the carriers of that message and that energy that is pervasive. throughout the organization. As a leader, you know, I think you have a few jobs and what makes an effective leader is to have the energy to carry these out, right? It's your job to remind people every single day while they're there. That's exhausting as a leader. It's exhausting. Most leaders

Starting point is 00:52:32 aren't willing to pay the price to remind their people why they're there every single day. And the second that you assume that the people know why they're there, you've lost. Right? And it's exhausting. Very, very few leaders have the energy and the stamina to keep doing it. And again, the second you start to think that I communicate enough, guess what, you probably haven't communicated enough. And the great leaders, and you can read any biography about great leaders, they do those things ad nauseum. And it takes an enthusiasm, unknown stuff. Unknownst to man, like Jim Harbaugh, an enthusiasm. And enthusiasm. and a belief in...

Starting point is 00:53:09 Who's got it better than us? Nobody. Nobody. And so, again, what are you willing to sacrifice to be great as a leader? That's the question you have to ask yourself. I was with someone recently who has been remarkably successful and has a foundation that they've set up. And I was asking him about the foundation. And he told me the name of it.

Starting point is 00:53:34 And I'm just going to make up the name. So it's not to give it away. but it's, you know, the John Harry Sally Foundation. Like, that's kind of a weird name for a foundation. Your name's not on the foundation. What's the story? And it was the name of the, I think the first name of the three prior generations of his ancestors. Oh, that's cool.

Starting point is 00:53:51 And like so many, if you go back in America, if you go back three generations, they were from, you know, somewhere else in the world and they immigrated here. And he talked me through each of them, basically what they did, that was then the foundation and the requirement for him to be able to do what he did. And I thought that was the coolest name I'd ever heard. And it makes me think of a question, which is how each of your families current and ancestral show up in your lives. Talk about Alexander Douglas Smith. So, and I've got like the waspiest name there is, right? So, but ironically, it's funny you just say that. Like, so on my, I have a tattoo, one tattoo. One tattoo.

Starting point is 00:54:38 It's on my back and I got it with my dad on his 60th birthday and the name Smith. My name Smith comes from my great grandpa who was Serbian and he was 12 when he came through Ellis Island. Okay. And he came with his brother who was 14. This is right around the turn of the century. And he was given or took the name John Smith. Right. And to the day he died, he ended up working his way west on the railroad, served in World War I in the Army and never told anybody his real name to the day he died.

Starting point is 00:55:08 wife, not his kids, not his grandkids. And that's where the Smith line comes from. And so, long story short, on my back with my dad, my dad was a long time educator, it was a high school principal for 25 years. Like, we proposed this idea of going and getting tattoos together. And I'm like, he's not going to say yes. Turns out he was for it. So we started doing this.

Starting point is 00:55:29 And it's a Serbian cross. And a Serbian cross, I'm not religious, but this was like a, you know, a Serbian cross, obviously is an equilateral cross. crossing in each quadrant. We put, I put the four, the four letters of my great grandpa, my grandpa, my dad, and me as a line to this. Wow. Right. As where I come from, certainly sacrifices that have been made.

Starting point is 00:55:54 And then on top of it in Serbian is Otec, which means father and kind of a line of the fathers. And this is my line of Smith. I don't know my real name, you know, what it would be. We've tried to research it and find out. and it just a dead end. But certainly, I've always known that story. I've known that since I was, you know, since I could remember why our name is Smith,

Starting point is 00:56:19 the most populous name in America, why we got it. And certainly there was a lot of pride for me in it from that story, from the sacrifices. Like, I knew my great, I didn't know him. I knew his story. though, like as a kid coming here and working his way west on the railroads and serving in the military. Then my grandpa served in the Navy, like, uh, how proud my, and my dad knew him.

Starting point is 00:56:47 You know, he was my dad's grandpa. And so my dad would tell his stories like when he was older. And he was kind of this like, honorary older guy, uh, a farmer. And that like how adamant he was and how proud he was, like of his name. And I do think that that absolutely has had shaped my life. that's cool i didn't know that the tattoo and all that my grandfather came in 1957 so i think like obligation to succeed some like fire comes from that for sure you know my family now like you know of me and the kids like you know the term of like your pride and joy like it just those words

Starting point is 00:57:27 or just words there's like an expression but that's actually what they are right like they really are my pride and my joy and they're i feel kind of emotional Stephen talking like about them but like they they are they are how i will measure my life you know like what will they say about me how will they feel about me and they are the reason i do anything and alice and i were talking at breakfast today of like you know why do this and we were kind of like i was just kind of like i'm only want to do it as long as i'm proud of the outcome of the output i don't actually care about any other thing that comes from it and so far i've been like really proud of like the stuff. I like talking about it with Uvni and the kids. And I think that they are the reason

Starting point is 00:58:10 that I care about being proud of it, if that makes sense. It's funny. My grandfather actually changed his name. Our original last name back in the day was Bonsol. And my grandfather is just a pretty unique duty. He just kind of like didn't like his life in India. He didn't like, he didn't like some of his family. And he was just kind of like, fuck this, man. Like, I'm changing it. And just named new chapter, like new name, new country, like, we're gone. And just like did it. And I've told you this before back here, but he did it like 35, five kids. And so the other thing that comes from him, I think, is like, it's never too late to just like do it.

Starting point is 00:58:51 You know, like there. And there's no excuse not to. So that's very real for me. Well, my parents, they shaped my life. And I wouldn't be here without them, obviously. But I had a very interesting childhood. I was the only mixed kid in my town. My dad was big Ed Batier, only black guy in town.

Starting point is 00:59:15 So by default, all the little white kids were, you know, kind of scared of him. But like, because he had big muscles and the only black person that they knew in Birmingham, Michigan. But he was the best little league coach. He was the best, absolute best. I mean, I still have people come up to say, you know what? Your dad was the kindest, most caring coach. And what my dad instilled in all of our teams was the enthusiasm for each other. Right. And so I can't tell you one time he taught me how to hit a curveball, how to hold a bat.

Starting point is 00:59:51 All right. He never raised his voice about anything school-related. But he raised his voice when we didn't hustle off the field. He raised his voice when we didn't give chatter to the 10th man. on the bench at bad after being owned for, right? He raised his voice if our shirts weren't tucked in. He raised his voice if we didn't practice sharp. He always said, if we don't practice sharp, we're not going to play sharp, right? And so he was a stickler for everything that we could control regardless of talent, right?

Starting point is 01:00:24 And that's the standard he held us to, just do the best that you can do. And as a result, we had amazing, amazing, amazing camaraderie on our team. team. We had a lot of success and a lot of fun, a lot of fun. And so I grew up thinking like, yeah, every dad talks about this way to their teams and their kids. And I soon realized that wasn't the case. And my dad was not a very educated man. I went to junior college in Minnesota for transportation. But he was always present, always present. You know, this is before cell phones, obviously, but I can never remember him missing a single practice, a single game. So from him, I learned the importance of just being present as a father now of two and a husband, the importance of just showing up every single day.

Starting point is 01:01:13 And I'm sure my dad had bad days, but I never saw my dad have a bad day, right? Man, a few words, but he was there. And that was so important to me. And my mother, to this day, is still the toughest person I know. And if you ask anybody in Birmingham, Michigan, she's fought with them all. She's a tough lady. All right. She raises hell.

Starting point is 01:01:32 And she was the one who told me growing up that, look, I know you're different, I know you're mixed, but they don't like you screw them, all right? Make them respect you. And the one thing my parents did for me that I can never pay them for, and it's why I'm passionate about education and giving opportunities to young people is they enrolled me into a Detroit Country Day school, which was an elite private school in Detroit. And we didn't have a pot to piss in, you know. And I went on financial aid and my parents had to get $500 to send me to the school. And I mean, I don't know how they did it. It seems like nothing, but they found it and they sent me there. And it was many years later. My mom said, you know why we sent you to Country Day? Because we didn't know how to get you to where you will be in life. We just don't have that capability.

Starting point is 01:02:27 But the people you were with in high school, Country Day, could get you. you there. So we had to get you there to show to yourself that you can get there. I'm emotional not talking about it. But it was an unbelievable sacrifice for me that they had the foresight and they realized their limitations and just an amazing act of love and sacrifice. They sacrificed everything so I could have educational opportunities. Basketball, that was chairing on top. cheering on top, you know, I grew to be six, eight, you know, and then 14 you could dunk a basketball. So that was a chairing on top, but it was always about the education and the opportunity.

Starting point is 01:03:05 And so, um, so I become just very, very passionate about giving young people an opportunity. And more importantly, just, just like seeing what's possible, you know, for my own kids and for any kid out there, if you can see it, um, and plant that seed, man, you can attain it. And, uh, sometimes it's the simple just, just laying, laying, laying, eyes on it. So I wouldn't be here without those experiences for my folks. Does someone come to mind that is simultaneously incredibly strong and very vulnerable? That's a good one. I think that you don't have one without the other, in my opinion. Like, I don't know anybody that I consider strong that isn't vulnerable, right? Like, that isn't real. The best leaders that I knew, the best teammate leaders,

Starting point is 01:03:54 that like there was nothing worse than like, you know, a team meeting or a team gathering or a breakdown and freaking, you know, Disney guy jumps in there and gives some rah-rah garbage, you know. Like we, everybody got a BS meter. The guys I respected the most, the leaders, whether they were coaches, teammates, peers, that were vulnerable and walked in and kept it real, right?

Starting point is 01:04:21 And like whatever moment, you know, It was like the ups, the downs, the in-between, I just think that that's what real strength is. Well, I disagree. I'm having a hard time coming up with an example of someone who is strong and vulnerable. I mean, we're taught to be, like, warriors out there. Like, Coach Kay used to show us video of us if we were making a face towards the official. Right.

Starting point is 01:04:45 And he said, look, if you are showing that you're anxious or you are, you know, letting the officials affect the your opponents are saying, wow, look at Duke. They're distracted. We got them. Right? And so it was always strong chin, strong face, strong face, you know? And in athletics, like, look, you're in the locker room. You're not a lot of tears in the locker room because everyone's always looking at you.

Starting point is 01:05:11 Yeah. And if you're crying or you're showing anxiety, you know, teammates start looking around and say, get this guy out of here. He's the weak link. But this is why, oh, go ahead. No, I hear you. And I just think that that's like, I think that's like, I think that's a lot of also part of what I feel like we talk about to combat because that is the Disney narrative. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:28 Right. I don't want to keep using Disney. I work for Disney, so I hope they don't. I don't mean that. But, you know, the Hollywood, the Hollywood version of this. Yeah, sorry. So, like, the Hollywood version of this is that. But, like, listen, like, nobody cried more than Frank Gore.

Starting point is 01:05:49 I mean, we, like, cried. Like, and I hope you did. He doesn't care that I'm putting this out there. Man, we would come in. It meant so much to him. And he is a first ballot hall of famer. I mean, this guy is like the stud of studs. Like I get asked all the time, favorite, like, again, not favorite.

Starting point is 01:06:03 But like, he's the guy that, like, I have the most pride that I got to share eight years with him. Right? Like, share a backfield with him. Like, this guy is a stud of a human being. And, like, man, you come in after a loss? Like, he, I mean, he wasn't, like, he, crying. Like, in the locker. room. Like, it was real. And, like, as a, as a teammate is and a peer, like, to see him, like,

Starting point is 01:06:27 let loose like that, like, sobbing and screaming and, like, I mean, it's like, holy shit. Like, you know how much it meant to him, right? Like, that was, that was, it was everything. But that's where I, so, Patrick, the reason I thought about what you said when you asked, like, who do you know? Like, I told you I idolized my dad, right? I don't think my dad, you know, showed a lot of vulnerability growing up. And I do think that, like, the nature of that is that you think that's the right way to do it right and like I've taken so much from my dad 99% whatever one thing I will say that I've tried to do slightly differently is I try to show more vulnerability with the kids right like my dad is the best dad in the world he's not a guy who says he's sorry terribly frequently right

Starting point is 01:07:05 like I apologize to my kids a fair amount right like hey man I messed that up I'm really sorry like you know this is my first time being a dad you know like that kind of stuff and like those are things I do think that I hope help us you know but the person that came to mind one person I think Pat Grady does a good job being strong and vulnerable. And I'll tell you some examples, like, you know, works as a quiet for people who don't know. But like, I think one, like, he is willing to tell you like, he sort of is honest about how much it means to him, right, which I think, and his voice shakes sometimes. He definitely cries more than most people, particularly in, like, our kind of office. But like his voice will shake with emotions sometimes, not of anger, but like,

Starting point is 01:07:44 he just like really cares, you know, until that just comes through. Sometimes he'll tell you, Like, you know, I'm worried I'm kind of like losing my edge. I'm worried I'm not in it enough. Like, you know, and I think for me that helps because I find the current job, I mean, it's like a hard job, right? And I think he's had a lot of success. And I actually think that there's a benefit that he doesn't even know that comes out from him saying, like, recognizing that it's hard and saying, like, look, like, I'm afraid

Starting point is 01:08:11 that I'm not doing this as well. I'm afraid that we're not doing this as well. And I think that it certainly helped me. me a lot, that he demonstrates that vulnerability because someone who's newer to it is sort of like, it's okay to feel that way. I'm not supposed to feel like I always got it. So I actually, interestingly enough, I think the best people do tend to do it. I do think is much more rare than it should be. And part of what I hope we can do is like, you know, admit it a bit more. And then what's the next step is not vulnerability in the past tense. Oh, man, I used to go through

Starting point is 01:08:45 this really tough time. It's really hard. It's vulnerability in the present intense. Like right now is fucking hard and here's why. And I think that's like a, you know, like another bar. But that I think is the most valuable vulnerability. It's not just like talking about how you came through it. It's like talking about when you're in it and like what are you going to do about it, you know? What about the urge to dominate just in general? Like you said nothing feels better than winning. Yeah. And most of the stuff we've talked about today, most of the most legible missions is kind of that. It's dominating.

Starting point is 01:09:21 The books that sell the best, the stories that get told the most in business, in the military, and all these domains that everyone loves learning about, I mean, the reality is it's often human against human and the desire to win and beat other people. Maybe say a bit about the feelings you've had of that urge to dominate and and what you've learned from it. I'll let these guys tell better stories, but like, I actually think that's, I'm okay with that tension.

Starting point is 01:09:53 And I mean that, like, I think that the way I square that is, like, as a team, as long as it's with my team, as long as it's with the people I want to ride with, then yeah, like, let's dominate it and let's dominate whatever it is that we're going up against. And, like, I almost don't care if it's consistent.

Starting point is 01:10:08 You know what I'm saying? As long as it feels like okay and, like, consistent, it feels like good for me to, my test is, like not consistency, it's whether I would tell the kids it's okay. You know? And like, I actually tell the kids all the time, like, yeah, you should want to, like, dominate the things you're doing. It's okay for you to try to want to win. But ideally you do it as part of a team. And ideally you do it with, you know, whoever you are, right, and the strength and the vulnerability and all that. But like, yeah, like,

Starting point is 01:10:33 I, I am okay and in fact kind of proud of the fact that, like, I am nasty, competitive and want to dominate and want to win. And I think part of the thing for me is, like, It doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. You know, like you can still be like a good dude. But yeah, like I find that to be pretty like in line with my personality. And I'm okay with that. The biggest takeaway I took away from my teachings, my days with Darryl Moore and Sam Henke. Right.

Starting point is 01:11:05 Is to understand how much winning is actually luck in randomness. Right. For as much as us as successful people think we control the. The process and the narrative and the outcome, so much goes into winning and dominating your opponent that a lot of it's out of your control. But what you can control is the process, the inputs that go into the output, right? Are you as good at that in your personal life as you were professionally? Because I remember you told me that professionally you were good at that. I think so.

Starting point is 01:11:39 Yeah. I think so. I sometimes you lose focus. We all love to win, right? And we all, when you win, you think you had a big part in it. For sure. But really, really, really focusing on the work, the process, the attitude, the consistency, all the things you control. Again, when you win, that's what you give credit to.

Starting point is 01:12:03 You really give credit to. I just, well, I just was better than my opponent. Right? No, we had a great plan. And we had a great team. Right. Right. So.

Starting point is 01:12:12 Did you ever see that interview with Shaq? after they won the high school championship, and the reporter said, Shaq, wow, congratulations on the win. To what do you attribute your team success? And he said, I attribute it to me. There's also that. Things you might have been right, you know?

Starting point is 01:12:32 There's also that. That talent difference was pretty different, you know? So much. I wasn't on that level. Look, you know, my battles with Kobe Bryant, you know, I've had games who you scored 60 points on me, and I've had games where he shot seven for 30 against me.

Starting point is 01:12:47 I've been on both ends. Same input. Same input, different. And with wins and loss is kind of like opposite almost of that. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I take solace in the fact that, you know what, I did what I wanted to do and I did it as hard and as enthusiastically as I could.

Starting point is 01:13:04 And you live with the results. So maybe a weak answer, but that's how I think about it. Unfortunately, we're at the point where I need to ask my tradition. closing question of everybody. I'm so excited to hear you guys chop it up like this every week. I hope for a very long time. I've been lucky to be able to listen to the first seven or eight of these already. And when people get a chance to hear you guys, tell your stories, reflect on the lessons. It is such an amazing jolt as a listener every week. And I am so appreciative that we get to play a small role in that and do it with you guys. So this has been so much fun. My traditional closing question for everybody is to ask, what is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you. We've already answered to this. No, you've answered this. Yeah, we get two.

Starting point is 01:13:50 We get two. Ravi's already. Yeah, exactly. Alex, sounds like it's your turn. I'll give it two quick things. I mean, certainly fatherhood, I just said, is the greatest gift that I've had. My three kids. I mean, that's it.

Starting point is 01:14:04 You know, like, it just is, it's something that I don't take for granted. That is, it's, it's. hard for me to put into words. With that, just a fun story. So my wife's going to hate that I'm telling this, because this is the nicest thing, maybe. When I was coming back from my leg injury, it was a long process, two-year process. And throughout the entire time, you know, I'm getting regular scans and x-rays on my leg. And I had what was called, and I still have what's called a non-union, which means my leg's still broken. Okay. and I have a steel rod in there, but there was this spot that's not healing.

Starting point is 01:14:49 And so even as I was like kind of progressing through my rehab, it wasn't looking good that this prognosis, right? And so meanwhile, I'm kind of pushing ahead, figuring out like if I want to push the limits of what I can do, you know, I've said I want to play football again, which was crazy, but I'm kind of like, you know, again, I'm learning to walk. I'm learning to jog and jump and run and do these things all over again. And then COVID hits and the world shuts down. And so I go from getting regular scans to no scans at all.

Starting point is 01:15:23 And because, like, right, like, it's just not happening. And so meanwhile, I've got to the point where I'm, like, lacing up cleats now. And I'm, and I've told you guys this, like, I'm recruiting every high school kid I can find to come run rocks. My wife's playing defensive end and rushing, you know, passer. and I'm trying to see if I can like, you know, get out of harm's away. And just, I'm, like, loving this. This is, like, still a special time for me looking back in hindsight, even though the world was obviously kind of chaotic.

Starting point is 01:15:53 And so I go this span of, like, almost eight, nine months without imaging done. And here we are. We're getting towards the 2020 season. And I knew it this, like, it was kind of, as we're getting here towards this time, a year, right? Like, right, training camp's going on. It was kind of like make or break time. Like, my wife had even said, like, this is either happening or it's not, right? Like, it's this year or never, now or never kind of thing. And so I go back to D.C. And I get a big round of imaging done. And again, it had been like eight months. And I'm just kind of,

Starting point is 01:16:28 it had always been bad news. I'm expecting kind of more of the same, because I got to get clearance to get played, to play, to have a chance to even try to attempt this comeback. And so I got all these MRI, CT scans, x-rays all done. And my lead doctor in DC is like, hey, why don't you and Elizabeth come over, you know, like tomorrow night and we'll talk about everything? And I'm like, shit, this is not good, right? Like, he's, we haven't done this. Like, we've become incredibly close over two years, but like, this is not good. And so my wife and I go over there and I'm like, definitely, you know, expecting bad news. All the military docs they were consulting on my leg, Plus my team of surgeons in D.C.

Starting point is 01:17:08 It all kind of conferred on the images. We meet him over in his backyard. He pours tequila for everybody, and I'm just like, fuck. And then he says it. And he's like, you're good to go. It's healed enough, right? And I'm like, no shit. That's like the dumbest grin on my face.

Starting point is 01:17:32 Because I'm asking him all these questions that, like, I thought, like, I'd never be able to do again. I'm like, I can go like mountain biking, rock climbing, skiing, snowboarding, right? Like, bungee jumping. Like, you know, like, you name these, like, extreme things that I'd never thought I'd be able to do again.

Starting point is 01:17:47 And he's like, yeah. And then it kind of hits me in that moment that, oh, shit, he's going to let me play football. And my stomach dropped, like, in that moment. And I immediately get in my head again. And I'm worried. I'm anxious. Because I'm like, oh, because forever, it, it seemed so unattainable. It was so far away that, like, while I was chasing it, right?

Starting point is 01:18:14 Like, it just, I never was going to get there. And now it's, it's here. Like, it's in front of me. Like, camp starts in a couple days, and I just got the green light. And it's like, oh, fuck. Like, what if my leg breaks again? What if I make a fool out of myself? Like, I got permanent drop foot.

Starting point is 01:18:30 I got a bunch of crazy shit I got to try and deal with. Like, this could go wrong in so many ways. Right. And I want off this so badly. Like I want like this trade I'm on, get me off. And my wife's there and we leave and we just go sit in the car. And as we're like exiting, I am like just praying she throws me a lifeline. Like we get in this car and she says, you know what, babe, we just got this great news like the rest of our life. Like do we really need football? Like and I want her so badly to like give me this. Right. Like, because like I. I'll take it right now. Like, you know, again, like, I'm scared to death. Just, again, self-doubt. And we get in the car and just, and we just sit there.

Starting point is 01:19:19 And just, I think she absolutely could sense, she knows me, you know, better than anybody. And could sense where I was at and all my apprehension. And we just sat and talked. And about regret, kind of about life. about the two years of work that I had been putting in, right? And they'd like, if you'd have flashed back two years prior when I was sitting in that hospital bed and they were talking about like amputating my leg,

Starting point is 01:19:48 if you'd ask that guy then, like, I would have jumped at that. Like, are you fucking kidding? Hell yeah. Like, you know, like, I never thought that would happen. And now here I have it in front of me, and I'm going to turn it down, right? Like, I'm going to turn my back on this. and I 1,000%

Starting point is 01:20:08 Like her And she hates this Because it's not like she was like pushing me back to play But like just talking to me Like so real And again like she carried such a burden for those two years Like she nursed me back to health I mean I had a pick line to my heart

Starting point is 01:20:25 Like she had to like we had ran I was in a wheelchair for six months Like it just was she carried such a burden Like keeping the house together And if there was someone that deserved to be like, let's not, you know, no more, like she did. And I think to just put everything in perspective and help me deal with all of that in that moment was such a real thing and such a strong thing. And I don't think, like, I don't know if I could have done it if the roles had been reversed.

Starting point is 01:20:53 And like my life, if I think about my life would be so different if I hadn't done that. Like, so different. like the free like knowing i mean i thought i was fragile uh this my leg had shattered i was like immune compromised like uh you know and the freedom i have going forward uh the mindset because of that like in that moment and to think like that i i want it out of there right and again for her to help me work through that uh again like it was sorry to be long-winded but like really really cool gift incredible i'm glad that Shane and I have answered this question on previous podcasts. So we can end with that.

Starting point is 01:21:37 Gentlemen, I can't wait for the episodes ahead. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you for having that. That's awesome. If you enjoy this episode, check out join colossus.com. There you'll find every episode of this podcast complete with transcripts, show notes, and resources to keep learning. You can also sign up for our newsletter, Colossus Weekly,

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