Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy - Patrick O’Shaughnessy - Creating on Principle - [Invest Like the Best, EP.455]

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

This week is a special episode. Only David Senra could get me to be on the other side of the mic. Because I don’t plan on being interviewed often, I wanted to share this conversation, which I so enjoyed, with our audience. It went in a very different direction than I expected. We barely talk about investing or interviewing. Instead, we talk about finding an organizing principle for life, undiscovered talent, and the idea that “the reward for good work is more work.” We also discuss the principles that guide how I think about building Invest Like the Best, Colossus, and Positive Sum. This conversation was originally recorded and released on David Senra, and I wanted to share on the Invest Like The Best feed as well. Please go follow what he’s doing, there’s no one like David. Enjoy! For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ----- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Ramp⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠'s mission is to help companies manage their spend in a way that reduces expenses and frees up time for teams to work on more valuable projects. Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ramp.com/invest⁠ to sign up for free and get a $250 welcome bonus. ----- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Vanta is trusted by thousands of businesses, Vanta continuously monitors your security posture and streamlines audits so you can win enterprise deals and build customer trust without the traditional overhead. Visit vanta.com/invest.  ----- ⁠Rogo⁠ is the AI platform for finance. They're building agents for Wall Street that are trained to understand how bankers and investors actually do work: from diligence and modeling, to turning analysis into deliverables. To learn more, visit rogo.ai/invest. ----- ⁠WorkOS⁠ is a developer platform that enables SaaS companies to quickly add enterprise features to their applications. Visit ⁠WorkOS.com⁠ to transform your application into an enterprise-ready solution in minutes, not months. ----- ⁠Ridgeline⁠ has built a complete, real-time, modern operating system for investment managers. It handles trading, portfolio management, compliance, customer reporting, and much more through an all-in-one real-time cloud platform. Visit⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ridgeline.ai⁠. ----- Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). Timestamps (00:00:00) Welcome to Invest Like The Best (00:04:26) Intro (00:05:14) The Joy of Championing Undiscovered Talent (00:07:33) How One Tweet Changed David's Life (00:10:16) The Upanishads Passage That Shaped Patrick's Worldview (00:15:32) Growth Without Goals  (00:17:24) Why Media and Investing Are the Same Thing (00:33:05) The Search for True Understanding (00:35:36) The Daniel Ek Dinner That Launched David’s Podcast (00:39:02) Making Your Own Recipe From the Ingredients of Great Lives (00:43:46) The Privilege of a Lifetime Is Being Who You Are (00:52:06) Bruce Springsteen (00:57:23) Clean Fuel vs Dirty Fuel: The Source of Your Ambition (01:01:43) The Unfair Advantage of Podcasting (01:04:12) Relationships Run the World (01:11:10) The Origin Story of Invest Like the Best (01:12:45) Building Colossus: Why Start a Magazine in 2025 (01:18:42) People Are More Interested in People Than Anything Else (01:22:12) Hiring Through Output (01:26:23) Learn, Build, Share, Repeat (01:30:01) The Daisy Chain: How Reading Books Led to Everything (01:33:15) Red on the Color Wheel: Sam Hinkie's Observation (01:40:17) Finding Your Superpower and Becoming More Yourself (01:45:06) Repetition Doesn't Spoil the Prayer: Teaching as Leadership (01:48:11) Life's Work: A Lifelong Quest to Build Something for Others (01:52:00) The Ten Roles Game and What Matters Most (01:59:12) Husband, Father, Grandfather (02:01:52) The Kindest Thing

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invest. Open AI, cursor, anthropic, perplexity, and Versel all have something in common. They all use WorkOS. And here's why. To achieve enterprise adoption at scale, you have to deliver on core capabilities like SSO, Skim, Rback, and Audit logs. That's where WorkOS comes in. Instead of spending months building these mission critical capabilities yourself, you can just use WorkOS APIs to gain all of them on Day Zero. That's why so many of the top AI teams you hear about already run on WorkOS. WorkOS is the fastest way to become enterprise ready and stay focused on what matters most, your product. Visit workOS.com to get started. Felix by Rogo is a personal finance agent that turns a single prompt into finished client ready work using your firm's own templates, context,

and standards. Send Felix an email like, take these comments and turn them for me, or update my tracker with the context of these emails, or run the ability to pay math on this buyer, and Felix sends back finished PowerPoint decks, Excel models, and sourced research. Felix works the way your team already does, delivering work quickly and accurately around the clock. Learn more at rogo.a.ai slash Felix. Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy, and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open-ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. If you enjoy these conversations and

want to go deeper, check out Colossus, our quarterly publication with in-depth profiles of the people shaping business and investing. You can find Colossus, along with all of our podcasts, at Colossus.com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sum. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Positive Sum. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.

Clients of Positive Some may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, visit PSUM.v.V.C. This week we have an unusual episode because I am on the other side of the mic on my friend David Senra's new show called David Senra in which he interviews me. I've chosen for the last five or six years to never be interviewed, mostly because I love doing what I do so much, shining a light on an investor, a founder, a thinker of some type who I can learn from. But after we did the show, I thought it would be a neat and rare opportunity to share with you all how I think about a lot of things as we build and Best Like the Best, Colossus, and positive some. I really hope you enjoy this a little bit different and special episode with David Senra. And please be sure to go check out his new show where he is interviewing some of the greatest living thinkers, builders, entrepreneurs in the world called David Senra. Make sure you

go subscribe to that as well and enjoy the interview. You have this almost obsession with finding talented but not well known or relatively unknown people. And then you essentially spend lot of time talking to them, developing relationships, and then putting all of your resources behind that person. What is going on there? Well, for how my personality is wired, that is the most exciting possible thing to do, because it means I get to learn about a person and whatever they're doing before other people do, and I like that. I like being at the frontier of what's going on and learning things that aren't widely known. I just enjoy that. I've read so much and have spent my whole life just as a constant learning type person. So to find something

fresh and new is very exciting to me. And you can usually do that with people like this. And then I've just learned about myself that by far my favorite thing in the world is championing other people. It's just what I enjoy doing. If I look back on my life, the sort of like wins that I've had, the things that if you were to write like a Wikipedia article about me would be like the accolades or the accomplishments. I don't care about those things. I don't think about them. When they happened, they didn't do anything for me emotionally or otherwise. For whatever reason, that's just not what I enjoy. But when your success happens or when many other people that I and my team have championed have a win, I feel that deep in my like soul and heart and gut in a way that is just more

gratifying to me than anything else in the world. And this extends to my kids, my wife, my friends, my, you know, the CEOs of companies that we've invested in, people that we have on our show that we tell the world about. That's the repeated thing that I love. And I also kind of like picking sides. I like saying I like this person. And by extension, I like them more than the other available options in this field or this industry or whatever. And, and, I like, and, and by extension, I like them more than the other available options in this industry or whatever. And I just get tremendous joy out of that. So now I'm architecting my life to just be able to do as much of that as possible. And I hope I get to do it for a long time. I screenshot this text. This is like many years ago. Somebody was asking me, I can't remember who

it was now, but they were asking me like what Patrick is like. And I was like, well, positive some is definitely like a way to describe him. And he doesn't do things for money. Like, that doesn't mean he's not commercial. Like, he makes a lot of money. He's going to continue to make a lot of money. but that's like not the driver behind it. Let me go back to like one of the craziest days of my life has directly involved you, right? Like I was like in the middle of this like five and a half year struggle of like being obsessed with something I know I truly cared

and thought was really good. But the external world was like, no. Like nobody gives a shit about what you're doing, David. And, you know, I kept doing it. And we have a mutual friend in Sam Hinkie who's going to keep getting annoyed because I bring them up on every podcast I go on. He's deserving of the mentions.

The two episodes he did with you, especially the one about like find your people, I think is that I go back to that one all the time and the notes that he says in there. And like one of the things I think about all the time, which, again, I'm not an investor, but I want like access and I want deep relationships with people,

very high quality people. And it is just like he's like, people are power law and the best ones change everything. And so once you actually see that, You're very almost like ruthless with who you let have access to you. And I think I'm getting very ruthless and continue to be ruthless because of what I'm, you know, kind of chasing after. But I had like no followers on Twitter at all.

And just like tweeting into the oblivion, like no one gave a shit, what I'm doing. And one day, this is why it's like one of the first things that I think speaks volumes about you and how you actually live your life. And, like, I think you've now leaned into this more over the last, like, four years that we've been talking. And I'm, like, see a bunch of notifications on Twitter. I'm like, I don't get notifications on Twitter. Like, what is this? The only time, there used to be the same guy that had my name, and he was, like, a Brazilian MMA fighter. So when he would fight.

Oh, that's funny. Yeah, it's like, but all the trees are in Portuguese, so I don't know what they're talking about. Just not about my podcast. And I almost remember verbatim. I should go and find, see how much I get the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, text inside the tweet, correct? But you're like, I never find new podcasts to listen to. And, you know, that's like the best.

It's like people don't know. It's just like insanely, one of the most insanely valuable audiences in the world. If you could like sketch out the average net worth of listeners. It's just like mind-boggling. And we're about to see that in action with this story. And you're like, I never find new podcasts to listen to. I think David Senors' founders' podcast is excellent. You should listen to it.

And you linked to an episode on Estee Lauder, which is one of my favorite one thing. I loved that episode, yeah. And you sent me a link. And so at the time, it was a paywall podcast because I couldn't figure out the business model because I had no listeners. And, you know, back then I would get, you know,

an email every time you had a new subscriber. There was not many emails coming in every day. I could count them on two hands, you know. And I was like, first thing I did, well, one, the next day I'd log into my email, and it's just a wall. all the way down. Just like, no, no, no, no, no.

But that is such an unusual instinct. If I'm being honest, like, I don't think I would have done that. What the hell is going on there? You didn't see it as a competition. You didn't, what was happening? The first thing that flashed just in my head is, you know, in my show, I always ask people the same question at the end of what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you.

Some person on Twitter or something went and compiled every answer. There's 500 answers or whatever. and categorized them and like made a pie chart of like what people say. And something like two thirds of the answer to this question were the same, which was the kindest thing was some person made a bet on me, the person answering the question, before I deserved it. Or like they saw something in me that maybe I didn't even see it myself. They bet on me before others would.

And that was the answer to the kindest thing. And when I was 26, I became very, interested in all of the, I studied philosophy early in life and I've always been interested in that stuff, but I became really interested in the religious texts, like all the world's religious texts. And I was, I was kind of, I was in a weird spot in life. I kind of hadn't found anything to do yet. I wasn't that good at anything. And I was searching. I was always searching for like, what the hell should I do? What the hell's the point of all this? And I found this passage in the Upanishads, which as a book is probably the most important book to me. And the

Pana Shods is this collection of stories from many of thousands of years ago that were oral passed down orally through generations and then eventually written down. And I remember getting stuck by this on this one passage that literally felt like someone hit me in the face with a hammer. And there's a line in this passage that basically says something like, like those who feed the hungry protect me, those who don't are consumed by me. And it just felt like a there was like a moment of understanding that happened in my head. But up until that point from teenage, you know, middle of teenage, I was a nice, sweet boy. And then I got kind of hard, hardened and went through a period of life. That was tough. And it just, it like woke me up that

the whole point of this is to help other people. That's it. That's the entire point of this existence. And from that point forward, that's been my worldview. And so I think it's interesting that like that's probably the thing that most informed my worldview. And then the answer to this question that I love to ask is predominantly someone bet on me. And like I told you before, the thing I love more than anything is like seeing the potential in somebody before everyone else and then helping the world see what I see. Like if I can do one thing over and over and over again, the rest of my life, it would be audition people to see if there's something that I see that no one else sees and then help foster that and show everyone else what I think I see in a way that can be

impactful on that person's life, which is what you described with our experience together. I think in the probably hundreds, I don't know, thousand conversations we've had, I don't think you've ever described it in such an easy to understand impactful way like you just did, where it's just like the whole point of this whole thing is just to help other people. As your business scales up, everything gets more complex, especially your compliance, and security needs. With so many tools offering Band-Aids and patches, it's unfortunately far too easy for something to slip through the cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful tool designed to simplify and automate your security work and deliver a single source of truth for compliance

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Ridgeline is redefining asset management technology as a true partner, not just a software vendor. They've helped firms five-x in scale, enabling faster growth, smarter operations, and a competitive edge. Visit ridgelineapps.com to see what they can unlock for your firm. You said before you were chasing something, right? Yeah. I'm not chasing anything. I think it might be interesting conversation today to talk about, you know, how we view what we're doing in slightly different ways. But I have no goals. I'm not a goals person. I've written essays about not having goals. The most red thing I ever wrote back when I used to do a lot of writing was about it was called Growth Without Goals. And so I'm not chasing any particular thing. I don't have a

big, hairy, audacious goal or something like this. I don't want to put someone on Mars like Elon miter. And I'm not to say that that's a bad thing. I think some people are goal-oriented and that's awesome. But that's not me. And I guess I've realized that if I have a goal in the abstract sense, It's just this thing over and over and over again. There's this amazing talk that I recommend everyone watch called Inventing on Principle. Have you seen this? Yeah. It was a talk given by a computer scientist named Brett Victor.

And he espouses this idea that you should find a principle that you want to. His principle was creators, digital creators, should have instant feedback with their creation. So just like if you paint something with a paintbrush, you get instant feedback. You see the paint immediately. Whereas in computer science, you'd have to code over here and compile, and then you'd eventually see your result. There was this gap. And so his principle was collapse that gap. That was his life's mission. And I love that way of thinking about finding one's life's mission is find a principle. Don't necessarily have a goal, but find a principle. And my principle is like when I see undiscovered talent, it is my obligation to do this thing, to get to know

them, to learn from them, to start introducing them to people to start, I don't need to get anything out of it. Like, what I get out of it is the thing. That's the point. But you're one of the few people in the world that have actually identified this organizing principle and then built a wonderful business around that. And I see, like, the media, we've talked about this a million times, but like the media and the best thing are not two separate things. They're the exact, if you actually know Patrick and what is important to him, like, they are the exact same thing. It's taking me a long time to articulate that principle. Decade. And that's okay. Like, don't get discouraged if you don't watch Brett Victor's talk and can't name your principal an hour later. Like, it takes time.

But you know you found your principle when it starts informing literally every decision you make every day with your time. And that's what it does for me. And it becomes universal. Like, on my team, for example, we're 16 people, something like that. now, this is how I think about my team. It's like, who can I find and see something in and bring them in and then make their career explode, hopefully, in an amazing way. And so it can be investing. It can be just in friendship. It can be on your team. A good principle can be applied everywhere. And that's why I think this idea is so powerful to do the work to find your principal for invention. And I have no idea where it will take us. That's the other fun part is one of the reasons I don't like goals is

I think very talented people when they set a goal, they tend to do it. And that's why goals are interesting to lots of people is it's a great way to make progress. But I find it unexciting because the second you set some big goal, you kind of know what's going to happen because you go do it and you know the road in front of you and you have blinders on. And I don't actually like having blinders on. I like to go, everything that's ever worked for me has come out of the periphery. You know, Sam Hinky, text me about you. Like, I wasn't looking for a podcaster to promote. Yeah. You were not, you were not the result of some goal that I was seeking. You were just something that, like, came out of the left field. And everything interesting I've ever done came out of

left field. And it's, which is why I don't keep long-term goals or short-term goals, is that opportunity just, I'm very open to opportunity along the, this principle. And so I'm very enamored of this idea for how to live. At what age did you stop having goals? Well, this essay that I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I'm 40 now. I wrote when I was 28 because I wrote it, I wrote it on the train. I used to commute back and forth from New York City to Stanford, Connecticut. And I was about to have my first child, my son Pierce. And my dad, when I was 21 handed me this book of letters that he had been writing to me since I was born. And a lot of them were when I was like a baby, like the, and I've done the same thing for my

son, and it's the same pattern. There's tons of letters in the first couple of years, and then it gets more spaced out, and now I do one on his birthday every year and things like this. And I'm going to give him a packet of letters as well when he turns 21. And I remember starting this process of wanting to write him a letter before he was born. And it gets, it got me wondering about like, what is going to be? parenting like what do I want to do as a dad and I believe deeply in showing not telling like I think maybe that's another reason I don't like being interviewed it's so it's I don't like telling I'd rather just said an example but um I was thinking what example do I want to show

Pierce and and then I don't remember my exact chain of thinking but it ended up in this idea of of everything I just talked about um so it was born of wondering like what example do I want to I want my son to see and emulate, because I'm sure you've learned this about kids as well, they don't do what you tell them. They do what you do. They just copy you. And so how you behave is how you parent. And I was thinking about that at age 28 and wrote this thing. And so that's how that's where it came from. So right around then is probably the first time I thought about it. And then how on from 28 till you realize this is going to be the simple organizing principle of how I'm going to live my life and spend my time. I actually don't think I could have articulated the

principle as I just laid it out until very recently. So I could have told you about the power of Brett Victor's inventing on principle starting 10 years ago or whenever I first saw it, but I would not have been able to articulate the principle to you cleanly. And that's because it's hard. It's hard to pin, for whatever reason, it's really hard to pin this down. Interestingly, I've never met Brett Victor. If he's listening, I'd love to meet him. I owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for one of my bigger career successes, which was I took his principle, not my own, but his principle of instant feedback and applied it as the primary design principle to software that I built in my last business, which worked really well. The software itself worked really well. The business grew a lot because of

software, and the software worked well because of his principle of instant feedback on choices being made by the user, showing up in this case a visual that described their portfolio. And so I actually, before I had my own principle, I stole his principle to great effect, which just goes to show the power of a great principle. But I couldn't have articulated it for a really long time, and I can't explain to you why that's the case. I don't know. It's a great line from Alan Watts that I would think about.

He's like, people think that life is meant to be understood. And it's like, not life is meant to be experienced. And I find that in my own self. Like, I do think I can't explain. Like, I have like a lot of Willy, like, foooo part of, obviously this is the line you laugh. But like, I have those like Willy fu-foo part of it. It's just like, I just go off feeling, like, an intuition for like a lot of things that I do.

And like, I don't want to have to, like, describe why I believe this to be true or why I want to, like, pursue this path or why I think this idea is interesting. I think it's just something inside of me that language cannot describe. I don't know if it was Alan Watts that said this. He had such a way with words that maybe it was him. It might have been Joseph Campbell. But something to the effect of

we're not searching for the meaning of life, but for the feeling of being alive. And I think that's correct. And I think a great, if you play red light, green light with principle, as you search for your principal, I think you could do a lot worse than knowing you're on the right,

path if the thing makes you feel more alive. Like, if you go in the direction, and people know what it's like to feel alive, they can call to mind these moments in their lives where they felt the most present and alive. And using those as a signpost to what your principal might be or what you should be doing, I think is a really, a really great thing. And that's certainly how I, I remember that one, reading that line 15 years ago as well. And then starting to chase the feeling of being alive, not a goal, but just that feeling. And everyone can answer this question, by the way.

It's a really, it's a great way to have a conversation with someone is to kind of ask them where they feel this. And then also why they're not doing more of whatever the answer happens to be, which is a funny, funny circumstance of humans that they kind of know what makes them feel most alive and then they don't do it most of their lives. That's a very interesting question. What's your guess on why they don't? Usually it's simple, which is fear.

fear that by pursuing an original path, I have this idea that the best story always wins. And I actually spent the last couple of months, like really trying to figure out what do I think best story means. And the best principles for a great story that I could come up with were originality, hardship, and transformation. And if you dig into originality, that one is really interesting to me because people do. don't pursue original past, usually because they're fearful of the unknown, because an original path by definition means it's all going to be on you. And that's uncomfortable and hard. And because an original path usually means leaving a very comfortable current existence

in a way that's scary. And so I think when you really drill people on why not, they'll give reasons that add up to, I'm afraid. And that's hard to get over. You've said to me before that you used to be a masochist for introspection. First of all, when did that stop? And then do you think that helped you find this organizing principle for your life? It definitely helped me find it because I wanted to not waste life.

When I was a little kid, young, five years old or whatever, I had this just crippling fear of death. I remember my mom and dad would have to sit and hold my hand for me to fall asleep at night. And the reason was I would just sit there like spiraling on this crazy idea. Maybe this is why I studied philosophy that someday I would not exist. And that just freaked me out and did for decades. So that probably kicked off this introspective period of my life where I was very curious about philosophical traditions and religious traditions and metaphysics. and all this kind of stuff, because I wanted to know

what the hell is the point of all this? Like, what's the point? What's the meaning? What's the purpose? And otherwise, it's just terrifying, right? That we're here for a blip and then gone. It's just terrifying. I try not to sit down and think about it too much.

In fact, I'd like to move on. But that kicked off this period of, yeah, I wanted to understand myself and others. And so I was very introspective. And of course, that made me want to not live a dull life. And I was very scared of just like living this training. track existence. So yeah, it did help a lot. But interestingly, once I have clicked into,

I think, understanding what I want to do, I don't think about it at all. And now I have very little introspection left in my life. I used to be so obsessed with all of these personality tests and what they mean and psychology and seeking and like all the modern methods for doing that. And I've kind of just lost not total interest, but I've lost a lot of my interest in that. You solved the problem that you were using it. Yeah, maybe. Interspection versus the tool, and then, like, you don't need to use the tool once the job is done.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's right. You mentioned earlier that we have different approaches, and then you wanted to talk about that. What do you think, like, I'm always curious, again, like, some of the stuff I should not say on a podcast, but I'm always curious, like, people that know me well. Yeah. Like, what is their interpretation of, like, their view of me that is different than, you? my own. So, like, what do you think my organizing principle is? Your organizing principle. If yours is just helping as many people as possible, and this is what's life's about,

and then you have all these resources to do so through media and capital and relationships. Just to clarify, it's not helping as many people as possible. It is trying to see enormous, like, not yet realized potential. Okay. And my principle is that is, when I do, it is my obligation. with nothing, maybe I invest, maybe I end up benefiting, but that's not the point, that it's my obligation to tell people about it and to help foster it into existence. So, you know, important difference. Well, it took me a decade to state my organizing principle. I'm not going to be able to name yours in a minute.

But you're probably the most single-minded and devoted to what they do person that I know in the sense that most people that have achieved a level of success in their field or in their job that you have begin to branch... The world, when that happens, pulls you into this branching exercise where you end up doing lots of different stuff

and that, you end up monetizing in different ways or going into different lines of business or changing how you do things, expanding. The single-mindedness that you have is quite distinct from the people that I know. know and you know why are you doing it I mean I think you've talked about this certainly in private with me but also in public about you know you came from we came from opposite

circumstances like I was I was born on proverbial third base or sliding into home I come from a history of extremely successful entrepreneurs my great-grandfather who had the best name ever his name was Ignatius Aloysius O'Shaughnessy everyone called him He was, I think, the 13th of 13 kids. He was one of the richest men in the United States. He was an oil wildcatter, first oil hole he ever drilled, I think still pumps oil to this day in the Midwest. And so he was a giant, he was broken up in the antitrust, you know, in the Rockefeller

antitrust stuff around standard oil. And our family takes great inspiration from him because he made this fortune. He did not give a shit about money. He didn't really spend it. He gave away basically all of it in his lifetime, mostly anonymously. My dad tells the story about being at his funeral when my dad was 11, and all these people were there, and no one knew who they were. And my dad would go up to one and be like, who are you? And they would say, well, Mr. I, A, you know, I cut his hair and he put my kids through college and bought me a house, or Mr. I.

did this or this, this. And we didn't even know where it went. And I have benefited from this tremendous history of business success in and around my family forever. Whereas you came from a very different set of circumstances. Our friend Sam has this idea of there's founders of businesses and there's founders of families. And I think of you as the founder of your family. And I think that's incredibly powerful. And I think it's your greatest accomplishment that things repeat through the generations.

You're fond of saying the story of the father and the son are the same. And it takes tremendous character, willpower, talent, lots of stuff, to break from that family tradition and go a new direction, which you've done, which I just think is remarkable. And I don't know if that's the underlying why that you refused to let your family continue to go the same direction that had gone up until you were born. and you went, as Sam would say, and we've talked about, you went searching for mentors because you didn't have them in your life, you found them in books and in founders, and you've been telling

everybody about it ever since, and it worked for you to change your life, and now we know, based on your work, that your work is now changing other people's lives in that same way that you changed your own first, but you were the first beneficiary of it. And so what is your principle or why? I don't know, maybe it's that you can, you don't have to just keep going in the same direction that you were given. You can break off and found something new. I think that's pretty amazing. I think there's a lot of times.

I really resonate what you said when you found that book and you're like, you know, this paragraph, this sentence just like hits you with like a hammer to the face. This is also like, you know, I use podcasts for this, reading mainly.

It's like I think people are rushing through things too fast. You know, I'm famous for only listening to a podcast on one X. Everybody's like, oh, you read a lot. You must read fast. I'm like, yeah, 25 pages an hour fast. Like, I'm not speed reading here.

I think I want understanding. And, like, I want understanding of how things actually are, not how humans say they are. And humans, not only are we lying to ourselves constantly, which is if you're lying to yourself, like, of course you're lying to other people about, like, why you're doing what you're doing

or what it is that you're doing. And this is why, like, autobiographies and biography so much, because in many cases, the person's like long past dead, or they're older, and they're just like, I'm writing this book on I'm 80, like, I'm not incensed devised to lie. And like, here's the stuff I went through.

And the trouble with whatever, being, what kind of dad you are, trouble with women, trouble with business. Would you realize, like, there's nothing that you're experiencing that somebody else hasn't already experienced? And so what I want is, like, true understanding of, like, humanity as it is, human nature as it is,

and the world that we're creating, and then I use their stories. It's not really about them. It's like about you. And I think this, I don't think it doesn't do me. I think like when you watch a great movie, you hear a great story, you hear a great song. You're not thinking about like, oh, this happened to Taylor Swift.

You're like, oh, I had that same experience in this relationship, or I went through this exact same thing. And it's like a form of understanding. Like, I'm in the middle of this right now. We were just having lunch upstairs. And, you know, essentially like, I'm just, like, in the middle of, like, trying to find the story that I want to tell with this book that grabbed a hold of me for six months. And I told you about, this is Bruce Springsteen's autobiography. I'm not, I don't even listen to his music.

And I told you about this right, like, right when I was like, there's stuff in this book that, like, this dude looks like he crawled inside of my mind. And, like, especially in regards to how he views his work and the impact that it has on it, it's like, that is not a sense. sentence, that is not a paragraph. That is like, that was made for me to read this at this point. And it's insanely powerful. And to the point where like, it's like a drug. You know, I told you, like, right away, you, again, I need to, like, give you credit. We'll go back to this drug and understanding because, like, I think this is really important about, like, people understanding why I want to talk to certain people and why, like, I was freaking adamant and, like, kind of pushing you on this. And we rescheduled a few times. And I'm like, I wouldn't be doing this. if it wasn't for you, not only because the platform that you gave founders, right, the podcast,

then that crazy episode that we did together, which I think is like, we're never, like, that was like lightning in the bottle. It was, invest like the best.

The title is passion and pain. And, you know, people are always like, oh, like, you guys sketch this, I was like, no, Patrick doesn't sketch things out like that.

He's like, we built a friendship. I want you on the show. Like, I don't think. you told me anything we're going to talk about. I do remember you texting me a few hours where you're supposed to do it like 10 a.m.

You're like, hey, I got pushed back and we do 1 p.m. I'm like, oh, no, my brain only works in the morning. So I took like a quick power nap, and I'm in this booth. We didn't do video, but you can see me, and I'm in like this phone booth booth that I put in my house that I was the only person, these phone booths are all in these offices. And I had one, they came and delivered to my house and they're like, you know, we've never delivered to somebody's house before.

I was like, this isn't a phone booth. This is a podcast studio. This makes perfect sense to me. And then we just had that conversation. And, you know, that was like a huge inflection point. Like that weekend that happened after, that was like one of the craziest weekends of my entire life. But then you push me for years. You're like, you should be recording conversations.

You should be recording these conversations. What are you doing? And I was like, no, no, it's a distraction. I don't want to do it. I want to do it. And then, you know, I've told the story a bunch, but I think like it's really important. We're like, I would not be doing what I'm doing right now at this very moment. If we didn't have, me and you had this dinner with Daniel Eck in New York.

It lasted four hours. I know you don't like when I tell you how long I talk to people. This is one of David's quirks. He tells you how long he talked to someone every time. I just said this four hour lunch with stones.

Yeah, because I'm not interested in superficial at all. Like, I can't tell you who it was. I just had dinner. How long was it? I'm going to tell you right now. But it was an incredible dinner the first time we met.

And, you know, it was unexpected, requested by them. And three hours, hours into this, this person's like, I have told you things. No one else knows about me the very first time I met them. So it's just, I just, I have no, I have no interest in the superficial and I think you have to talk for a long time because it takes a little while to get like warmed up and like feel the person out. And this is why what you said earlier is so important. Like fewer deep relationships. Dude, think about the crazy conversation, which we're not going to, you know, relive. But like, me and you just had an insane two and a half hour conversation in Tel Aviv at like two in the morning.

You know, to have that level of honesty and conversation, like, you would have to have, like, years of, like, getting to know somebody. So I do think... I also think you're providing people with a sort of set of ingredients, maybe, through these episodes and conversations, but that it's important that people then go make their own recipe. Like, you shouldn't just want to live like person X, Y, Z. A lot of people you cover have the same pitfalls in their lives. And one might be tempted to think those pitfalls are just inevitable byproducts of success. success. But I hate that kind of thinking. I think, like, screw base rates. I don't care what the base. I never care what the base rate is. Like, the whole, the most interesting stuff is outliers, by definition. So I don't care what happened to everybody else. I don't care if, you know, there's common pitfalls. Like, I think it's important that people take their, make their own recipe from the ingredients that you've offered them from all these amazing and interesting lives that you've studied. And you're just doing that for yourself. Like, that's, that's been the search. I think it is for myself. You are interested in other people and frankly, in a way that I am not. not. And I've seen, it's like very real and it happens every time we're with other people together. I'm like,

oh, he, like, actually wants to know where, like, I am on this search of, like, how the hell do I not have a terrible life? This is why I think the skill set that gets you to where you are, like, so many people plateau. And, like, I'm not, I'm not interested in, you know, mailing it in. Like, I'm interested in, and I want to get to my end in my life. Like, I don't want to tap dance on a giant reservoir potential. I want, like, there is, there was nothing more that I could have possibly done with my skill set and everything else. Like, I want to, like, I want to be. to figure out how to get the most out of that. And there's something you just said about, like,

there's a line in this Bruce Springsteen's in autobiography where he's like, people don't come to rock shows, or to concerts, rather, to learn. They come to remind them, for you to remind them of stuff they already know is true. And I think, yeah, you're going to learn, like, there's obviously creative ideas on how to build a company in a 400-page biography of somebody.

What is you're going to realize is, like, there's a lot of stuff that you already know, and you know is true. and either you haven't applied it or you forgot it or you did it for a little bit and you needed a reminder. This is why me and you always describe founders. It's church. It's church for entrepreneurs. In that church, I think the animating interesting question is you read these stories, all of which back to my idea of originality,

hardship transformation, you know, best story wins, that originality is you're inspiring people to wonder, what's my thing? Everyone's got something. I guarantee it. It's my favorite thing to search for in conversation, especially if someone's not yet doing it, which is kind of the same search for unrealized potential or something. Everyone has a thing that, for whatever set of reasons, their life experiences, how they're wired,

their naturally endowed gifts. And searching for that thing is really interesting and really hard. And I think that's what founders continues to do for me is show me examples of people that went to the trouble to find their thing. and then once they found it, foster it the rest of their life. And again, once you find your thing, the second thing is hardship, it's not supposed to be easy. Like, nothing meaningful is easy. And that's fine.

And then once you learn that, I think that's when it gets really fun, is that the, I always have this feeling. The second something just feels easy, and I'm kind of going through the motions. I get really uncomfortable and want to try to push myself in some new way. But I think that's what founders does so well, is it shows, it's what, about, back to the very beginning of our relationship and why I sent that tweet out and why we talked to each other for an hour the first time we talked,

it's because it was so unique and so different and inspiring. So I think it's a powerful thing to do for people. I think when I say it's like, what is my organizing principle? It's like, I want to understand things. I want to understand things. I want to understand people.

And to understand people, you have to like go deep and like, what happened? Like, where were you born? What was going on? Like, what was this experience? Like, you have to just spend a lot of time asking them questions.

and having these long, deep conversations. And I don't think, I mean, there's a handful of people that I feel I truly know. It takes a long time. It takes, you know, at least 100 hours of conversation, you know, on the low end. You mentioned you said organizing principle, which I think that's correct. Just to push, because this can now be something we talk about for the next couple of years, which is probably how long it'll take to articulate, that's different than what is your principle for invention. So back to the idea of inventing on principle.

The principle should be something that when you see it violated, it is your obligation to go correct it, and that that correction is an act of service for other people, not for yourself. It's not about you. And that's what makes the idea so powerful. I agree that that's your organizing principle. That's like the thing behind why you're doing what you're doing. It will be fun to try to pin down what the principle is for invention, because that's what's, what you're doing. You're making new things, which is the most fun and rewarding experience of a lifetime. And I remember the little opening quote, you know, this compilation of his life's writing

by Joseph Campbell that was done by his niece or something. The little opening quote in the book is, the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. And the people that make things that are the most interesting, those things are a reflection of themselves. That's the most sustainable form of creation. If you can sort of spill yourself onto the thing you're making, which benefits others, the thing, you know, being of service to other people in some way, I think that's the thing that we're, actually, I think that's what we're all after. I think what we all want is to make, participate in the act of creation on in a small way that reflects the active creation going on at a grand scale. And to have that experience of in so doing by pouring oneself out into the,

the thing and then having the thing be of service to others. That's an amazing feeling. And it's hard to get going. But once you do, I don't know anybody. I've never met anybody that's gone, that's had that experience and gone back. Not one. And it's because I think it's the thing that we're all after. And that's what you're doing too with this show. I think like one of the biggest things I want to avoid is like finding the thing, doing the thing, being great at the thing and then like something you do causes that to stop

where like you know I'm kind of obsessed with like this sained success you know like I don't want to you know have this huge spike I don't want to flame out like I'd rather just do like this slow build decade after decade get better and like keep doing it

this is why essentially I read fiction and I read biography like that's basically what I read and like the biography part is like okay what happens after they got what they wanted And the conversations I've been having, a lot of these have been having on camera, but after, off camera, I'm always asking, because most of these people are older and more experience and obviously more successful, smarter and everything else, just like, what I have to worry about? Like, what am I not seeing that could, like, cause me to stop? Like, I like what I'm doing? I love it. What am I doing that would cause it to, like, for me to not be able to do that? And there's, like, interesting, like, human questions about this. Well, the trap is before you do the work to figure out the thing that makes you feel alive, there's this great line in the Upanishads that it's always referred to abiding joy.

Like joy that doesn't run out. You don't use it up. Like you use up so many resources. As you use it, you get more of it. That's abiding joy. The target for most people becomes the traditional money power fame because those are. worldly proxies for success that we all recognize and are for sure to some degree true. It's hard to get a lot of those three things without being successful in some way. I think those things are

huge traps because once you start to get one, it's the thing you start chasing. And it's different than chasing the feeling of being alive, that abiding joy of feeling alive that we talked about earlier, which you'll never run out of. That will always guide you well, always. And money, power fame will not. And so I think the answer to your question or your worry is just like, make sure you're chasing the feeling of being alive and that the intuition around that, and you'll be fine. And it's when we get sucked. And I've, of course, have just like everybody else. Like, I've been intoxicated by those three things at various points of my life. And that's because they're intoxicating. It feels really good the first time you have a lot

of one of those things. You're over fame, though. You don't like it. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I think it is, I wish I could do what I do. And you know the thing in men in black where they flash you in the face? I wish, like, at the end of each of my episodes, it's like flash people in the face and they forgot who I was and they didn't recognize me. I've been thinking about this lately. It's like what I actually you have limited time that you're like every day. Like where do I like spend this? And it's like three things. Health, work, relationships.

And I can't think of anything else that I care deeply about. Health has to come first because if we are sick or we have no energy, like we can't do anything else. But other than that, like, if you look at like how I spend my time, it's essentially just like I'm building, I'm creating work that I hope it makes somebody else's life better, that I truly am like the abiding joy, like chasing that. And then I'm just deeply interested in a shocking way of having really strong relationships with other people. And like, I was not like that 10 years ago.

My experience, actually, I would disagree with the order. I had tremendously bad health problems for a long time. And I don't anymore, thankfully. But I'm convinced I'm certain that the reason is that I finally got my work and my relationships, correct? and that when you're doing something you love and have great core relationships, all of a sudden, magically, your health gets way better. And during that time when I had lots of health problems, I ate unbelievably well. I worked out every day. I did everything you're supposed to do. And then some, I was crazy about it. I kept daily logs of all this stuff. Like, there's nothing I didn't try. There's no Willy Foo-Fu thing that I didn't explore. tried everything to solve some of these problems. And I couldn't solve them. And at one point,

I felt resigned to just like, I guess, like, I'm just one of those people that's going to be sick in life. Like, that's just how it's going to be for me. And it cannot be coincidence that when I finally started doing the thing that I think I was meant to do with my life and spend all my time with the people and focused on the relationships that all of a sudden my health got better. So now, of course, I still invest a lot in my health. I'm not arguing with the three key things. But I found that an interesting experience in life. The body keeps the score.

The fame part is interesting because this is something that, like, you uniquely understand and I can talk to you about. It's not to be known for the sake of being known. Like these, like, reality TV show people, that's weird. Like, I want my work to be so good that it can't help but, like, become known and, like, talked about and, like, spread because they find. value in it. This is just human nature. Like if you find value in a song, a movie, a book, a podcast, like no one keeps that to themselves, a restaurant. Like, we are compelled to tell other people about

the things that we like. What I would say is, like, the reason I think I view it differently than you, and you could tell me if I'm wrong or whatever, it's just like, not even wrong, but like, it's the relationships that you get to build as a result of you being easy to understand to other people. So, like, no one's going to stumble upon any of my work and be like, what is this guy actually interested in it. Like, it's like very, like, very clear. Yeah, it's quite clear, very obvious. And then if you think there's like some kind of like unique insight.

But my point being is just like, I think this comes down to a principle of like, all like why are people, all the people that I've studied, either have a conversation with or are read about. It's like, why are they great at what they do? And it has to do with, I do think the most fundamentally important thing that you do in life is choose who's around you. Of course. Like, your friends, people you work for.

Like, your company is the people that, like, that you are able to recruit and to build. And so, like, what I couldn't understand is, like, I was not interested at all in relationships with other people. I would say, like, 10 years ago somewhere like there, where now it's like I invest a ton in that element. I think it's like the part, I'm very excited about my work. That is never diminished. But, like, I think it's the part that I'm most excited about and have been for, like, quite a while. Well, because of course, on your deathbed, that's what you're going to be thinking about, not your 5,000 podcasts. You're not going to lie there and think.

But that's surprising to me, Patrick. Like, this is why this freaking Bruce Springsteen book is, like, messing with me so much. It's because I'm seeing this. He's 66 when he writes it, 67, something like that. Now he's like 76, and I just heard him on another interview talking about it, where the first half of the book is, like, this guy, like, has one of the most insane work ethics that you've ever, ever seen. and it's channeled into one thing and he has no doubt since he was 15 that this is what he's going to do

and he realizes that he does not have the skill set or he has all these things that he has not developed the skill set to handle I'm just going to like try to like explain this I mean just record a whole podcast about it so maybe like this will hopefully make sense

it was surprising to me that this man who is psychopathically obsessed with professional achievement and fame and stardom and all the stuff that he was very upfront about what he wanted from a young age. He gets it, which I'll get to in a minute. And his final realization is life is more important. Work is a part of life. It is not my full life. Life is life is life. It is important. And his biggest struggle was he becomes famous. This is what Jimmy Iveen told me because I got to meet him. And right when I was leaving his house, he's like,

you need to go watch the new Bruce Springsteen movie. And it's called Delivery Me From Nowhere. And I thought it was going to be like a biography of his life. That's not what it's not at all. It is like a dark, I was shocked, dark movie. This is the key to understanding. unbelievable, like terrible environment born into, you're going to, there's going to be two actions there. You're just like, this is what life is, I'm going to accept it, or you're going to have this, like, maniacal will to change things. He has the maniacal will, and he's like, I don't want to live like that.

His dad was one of the worst human beings to him. He takes all that pain, channels it into a work ethic that gets him exactly what he wanted, gets what he wants, which is now everybody knows who he is, is world war fame, worldwide, famous, he's rich, everything, and then immediately drops in his mid-30s until the deepest depression of his life.

And what he realizes is that's not what I actually wanted. And what he, this is what it goes by, I think I told you this upstairs, or maybe I even mentioned this. It was like, had a very interesting conversation at dinner last night, and it started with, what is the lie that you're telling yourself? and me and another person going around that for quite a while.

And it was very fascinating. And the lie that Bruce was telling himself was that work was the most important, that becoming a rock star was the most important, fame was the most important. And what he realizes is that his parents had so messed up his emotional well-being, he was incapable of doing the thing that he wanted.

In his case, he desperately wanted to have kids, to be married, to break the chain. like we mentioned earlier, of like, my kids will not experience what he experienced. And he was even writing, he has a whole album,

fantasizing about this before he's able to do it. And what he would run into the same thing where, like, he, it's got to be such a crazy juxtaposition of like, he's on stage in front of 40,000 people,

they all love him. And yet, like, in his case, he talks a lot about women in the book. He would get close to a woman. He'd have some kind of feelings for her. They'd have, she'd have feelings for him back, okay?

Then he immediately goes, why do you love me? Like, I am so fucked up and undeserving. So the fact that you love me means there's something wrong with you and I'm going to hurt you because you love me.

And then he'd run away and then he'd get into a another relationship and he'd go over and over and over again. And he didn't realize the source of his depression was he didn't know what he actually wanted. And he didn't have the skill set.

And then he winds up meeting the woman. He's married, by the way. he winds up meeting another woman who's in his band and getting divorced because he realizes, like, this is the person that can, like, I'm willing to do the work necessary to fix, which is like a crazy thing. And then he goes through 25 years of therapy and in some cases he has to get on antidepressants. And like he's unbelievably honest from what took place is like from 35 until 67 when he's writing his book. And so I think there's all kinds of lessons in there from personal.

like what do you actually want in your personal life? Like the kind of relationships you want with friends, romantic partners, where the case is. But this is what I meant about like, I want to make sure I developed a skill set, not just to stay where I am, and you've pushed me in this direction a million times.

You're like, stop doing everything yourself. Like we have a million conversations. You're just like, why don't you have a team? Why don't you do all this? It's like, it makes sense why I don't have a team because I don't fucking trust anybody. Like, that's obvious, like, why that is. And I do think I'm like getting better and better and better

to like even with stuff me and you talk about. Like, 10 years ago, there's zero a chance. I would have let that come out of my mouth. Zero. I mean, you tell Bruce's story, but I think you're talking about yourself to a large degree. I know. And maybe my arrival at the aspiration by no means perfect to be more service-oriented. My grandmother, who just passed away, she was 99, banged on me.

Every time she'd see me, this would be the topic of conversation. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations on all the... on all the success. Like, who gives a shit? Like, what are you doing for other people? That's what I want to know. And I'm convinced that's the way out that I think I like you and like so many listening have their set of demons that they've struggled with.

And the path out is others. Simple as that. And it sounds like Bruce, I don't know, Bruce, I'm not a huge Springsteen fan. I'd love to, I need to read the book, obviously. but that seems like a tale as old as time. But this is something I learned from you, this idea of making sure that your source of fuel and energy

and ambition is generative and not negative. And I do think like, like the conversation of how with you with Sam Hinky is really important. It's like, I'm getting to the point where like, I push myself because I love it.

I'm way nicer to myself than I have ever been because I'm like, oh, this doesn't serve me anymore. Like I'm not going like, I will be successful because I love it. And if I love it, I'll do it all the time.

And if I do it all the time, I'll get really good at it. And if I get really good at it, money will come as a result because it's an active service. Yeah, the clean-fuel, dirty fuel debate is really interesting. And look, a lot of many, most, nearly all of the books that you've read were people that were fueled by dirty fuel. Dirty fuel works really well. But it consumes the person in a way that I would far rather die, you know, nobody knowing who I am with no worldly, you know, success. but having people that could count on me, rely on me,

I was faithful to, that I was loyal to. Like, that's what I want at the end. So if you can work backwards from that, that's another cool way to think about it. Like working backwards from what you hope is true is a simple heuristic for finding what to do well. And I think, yeah, I think I can't wait to read the book. This is why I think, you know, reading a bunch at the same time,

or not the same time, but like having a lot to pull from. It's like I'm reading the Bruce Freeseyne's book, but then you realize, like, another person with, like, superhero work ethic and drive and ambition was the LBJ, which Robert Caro brilliantly writes about. And you realize Bruce is generative. It took him a while to figure it out, but, like, he got on the other side of that

where LBJ never did. And even though their sources, very similar. Like, there's a great story of Robert Carrow tells in one of his books where, like, you know OBJ finally gets to Washington I think he's like an intern I don't remember what the job he has

he has no money it's cold and it'd be like the summer would be coming up at like 5.30 and this woman that worked with him would always see him like running everywhere and they just assumed oh he's got no coat

he got no money he's like running to warm himself up and then the summer comes and he's still running and obviously Robert Carr was a master with words and storytelling and his whole point was like of course he was running

he like finally made it to the spot because he was talking about what he wanted to be president since like third grade or something he's like he finally made it to the city to the spot of where all his dreams are and like he was going to run after his dreams there's so much in between these two stories one guy's a rock star one become one guy comes to president of the United States and it's the same thing one is generative one is unbelievably manipulative and you know probably not a guy that you like want in your life to be around and so I think also learning from like great examples but almost like seeing like oh I don't want to be that way. This is like something like, you know, one of the best things about

like our friendship is like, I actually want to like let people in. Like, I want to have. Of course. Friends and like deep friends. And in the past, like, that wasn't an important, like, thing to me. I agree. This conversation is now therapy for David. But this is my point. It was like when I wanted to sit down with you, like, there's a bunch of things I want to talk about. But it's like, I also want to like kind of like talk about the stuff that like, we normally normally talk about. The reason I think it's important for like me and you too is like how much of our ideas actually came from the creation of the podcast. Like you think about like all, like all the different ideas and topics and things that you've learned as a byproduct of just making this thing.

And then the unfair advantage that we have is essentially like we like a professional learner. You know, like you get to study somebody. You get to have a multi-hour conversation with them and like, oh wait, he said that or she said this. Like I'm going to take that idea. Who have you grabbed ideas from and like who do you let like influence your the way you think i mean how long you got uh i i could easily rattle off 50 people let's take one like just some of the most important ideas and where they came from to take the simplest example possible in the early days of the show this is a very like practical real world example uh if you take the ideas that i got from dan no who you mentioned before at Spotify about how to build software.

From Brett Victor, who I mentioned before about this principle for great software and what it looks like. And from a guy named Chathan, Pudaguntat, Benchmark, one of the partners at a very story investing firm called Benchmark, who taught me how to sell software. Just those three guys, I basically just stole their ideas and applied it to my situation. And it worked to a spectacular degree. I didn't know anything about software. I'd never built software before. I had an amazing team at the time that, you know, was able to pull it off.

But the direction of the resources and what to do strategically just came from asking, you know, those three or three of the greatest in the world of what they do. How do I do this to somebody that could help me? And then not thinking too hard about what they tell me and just doing it and having it work. And so there's a tiny example, you know, three people. Did you have all three on your podcast? You're two out of three. I've never met Brett. Okay, so you have two out of three.

Yeah. These ideas came from conversations did you have on the podcast? No, I didn't ask them this stuff on the podcast, but in time spent just offline with them, I'll never forget. I was in Benchmark's office in San Francisco, showing Chath in the demo, you know,

I'd show them the demos. And it was amazing. He'd give me feedback. They weren't an investor in my business or anything. He was just doing it out of, you know, just the goodness of his heart, I guess. And same thing with the others. And there's many more than three people that contributed to that project that influenced me and taught me things.

But yeah, mostly just offline asking questions. But I did interview Chatham several times and Daniel sometimes. Your finance team isn't losing money on big mistakes. It's leaking through a thousand tiny decisions nobody's watching. Ramp puts guardrails on spending before it happens. Real-time limits, automatic rules, zero firefighting. Try it at ramp.com slash invest. As your business grows, Vanta scales with you, automating compliance and giving you a single

source of truth for security and risk. Learn more at vanta.com slash invest. Every investment firm is unique and generic AI doesn't understand your process. Rogo does. It's an AI platform built specifically for Wall Street, connected to your data, understanding your process, and producing real outputs. Check them out at rogo.a.ai slash invest. This goes back to the beneficial nature of like relationships.

You start out as like, okay, I had a conversation with them. And then if there's some kind of like mutual respect, you build a relationship. Like right now, we're filming, this is the first podcast ever filmed at the Amman in New York. Yeah. You try to email the Amman in New York and ask them if they, let me set up and film a podcast here for free. That's not going to happen. That happens because of the relationship, a personal relationship that I have with a friend of mine who is evolved with Amman. This is why I would say relationships run the world.

and our jobs are essentially like learning and then taking what we learned and packaging it for the consumption of somebody else for an easy way for somebody else to consume and benefit from that learning where it's a conversation, a book review, or whatever the case is. So that's like very practical.

That was in the early days when you were doing Canvas, right? Yeah. What about like larger things in your life? Like who do you think had like an impact? Like my life would not be the same if not for that one conversation, that one idea with that person? Two people came to mind right away.

The first is Herbalin from Allen & Company, who I don't know well. These lessons came from one incredibly, you know, incredibly interesting conversation about, my sense of him, again, don't know him well, is that he is uncompromising in his values.

He does, he's maybe like, apex predator of like the thing I want to do, which is like picking and supporting people. I think that's what he's done for a really long time with unbelievable success. And that he is so incredibly uncompromising about how he does that. And willing, I won't tell the examples, but like, I think willing famously to like throw away huge commercial opportunities just because the person wasn't who he wanted to support. So sometimes it's literally a conversation with a person that just smacks you in the face

and makes you feel validated maybe for what you're trying to do. There's a gentleman named Reese Duka, who's been, who's very, very private, and, you know, there's no content about him or interviews with him. I wish to God I could, he would let me interview him. I know he never will. Who has been incredibly impactful on, at like a philosophical level. He has all these amazing little phrases. But his life kind of boils down to simplicity,

the beauty of simplicity. He gave me this line one time, simplify your life with rhythm and harmony. And that line is what you're talking about. Fewer deeper relationships, fewer things better, everything aligned with what gives you energy, listening to your own,

the feeling of aliveness. Like, he lived that to a degree that's rare that I've never seen. So I could keep, I literally could rattle names. A gentleman that I spend a ton of time with now named Jesse Beirutie,

who I am with basically every day, who also, I think, has no interest in fame or accolades or recognition, but I think is one of the great, we'll go down, I would predict, as one of the great investors ever. And he's like Greece, he's completely uncompromising and the most principled way of living I've ever seen just like refuses to get sucked into the game. And I could, God, man, I could rattle off names for hours and hours. I mean, there's so many people that have influenced me.

And that's what makes this all fun. That's what makes where you and I do so fun is I'm inspired constantly. And, you know, you're doing this new show. I interview people once a week. But really, I interview like 10 people a day. That's what I do. I just happen to have mics there one of the times. You know, if I'm doing it 40 or 50 times a week, which is not an exaggeration.

It really is that many people every week. Just like, who are you? What's your deal? I love doing that. And so there's just too many, too many to name. but those are a couple that came to mind. Munger said, I'm paraphrasing, but he's like, one of the best ways to learn

is like you find somebody that's kind of an outlier and you just ask like, what the hell is going on with this person? Yeah. And you just keep asking that question to try to get like deeper and deeper and deeper about reverse engineer of what they're doing and like why they're really successful.

There's another fascinating thing where like there's like this meme where it's like everybody has a podcast now and everybody starts podcasts. And as soon as that like takes hold, you've been doing podcasting for 10 years and you decide, no, I'm going to go in a different direction.

And the majority of our conversations, I would say, now, are not even about the podcast. They're about these profiles that you're writing on Colossus. Some of them have been so incredible that I actually use them as source material for a founder's episode, which I think we should do more of those collabs because they were like really well written, kind of like doing my job for me. Why did you decide to do that? I'm in the abstract, very interested in how can I, create and control valuable scarce units of attention and then dull those things out to the people that we believe in. At a very high level, the reason we now have a magazine, which on its face, I think, was as everyone would have agreed, it was a stupid idea or told me it was a stupid idea

when we started it. Why are we doing these profiles that take months or quarters or years to write and require lots of investment? Why do them? Well, the reason is, I think it's just in a beautiful way to shine the light beyond like podcasting on people that we admire. And to teach someone, teach the world about a compelling founder or a compelling investor or artist or whatever. And the thing that I didn't realize was that because I'm not writing the profiles, our amazing team is writing them, it would actually be a double whammy that not only when we started doing this, this, I went and read David Remnick, who's the editor, long-time editor for the New Yorker. And New Yorker profiles were always my favorite growing up, these incredibly detailed, amazing, well-written profiles. He wrote in the introduction to this, his compilation of his favorite New Yorker profiles. There's this line that says the best profiles over the last hundred years are defined by somebody doing a thing they're obsessed with and a writer that is as obsessed with the person as the person is with the thing. And I remember reading that paragraph and just thinking, wow, I want to read. That's what I want to read.

And, you know, so I went and I read a million profiles. And the very best one I read was in a publication called Tablet on Palmer Lucky from Andrel. And I reached out to the author. His name is Jeremy Stern, who's now the editor-in-chief at Colossus. And, you know, the rest of that story is sort of history. He joined. We've got other people, you know, that have joined. are joining to write these profiles.

And it just felt like, wow, this is another way to do the thing we love to do, which is to find the person, become obsessed, learn everything about them, take great time and pain to write a definitive thing about them, and then share it with millions of people. And, you know, the fact, the one that we wrote about Josh Kushner and Thrive was one of these like bizarre break the internet moments when it just like completely took over the internet for a while. And I remember reading it the first time and I was like 45 minutes into reading it. And I was still reading about the Holocaust. And I don't think anyone else would take that risk in a

profile of Josh and his family and his team. But it was so important to understanding the soil out of which his family and eventually he emerged. And Jeremy also, the writer was the product of Holocaust survivors himself and knew a tremendous amount about Josh's family history because it was also his family's history. And I thought that was the coolest, most beautiful thing. I never would have, you know, so this project has become an excuse to, first of all, find more talented people, the writers, that we can support. which is great, see the potential, you know, same thing we've been talking about over and over again. So now team members become more people that we can do this supporting thing with.

And for them to write things they're obsessed with and passionate about, and then for the rest of the world to benefit, for the people being profiled, hopefully to benefit, you know, if we tell the honest stories and, you know, we want to tell the hard parts and the interesting parts. And it's been successful beyond what I ever could have imagined. And I think it's important to note, like, when I started with the first idea, everyone said it was a stupid. I mean, literally, everybody said it was a stupid idea. When I started the podcast, everyone said it was a stupid idea. When we started Canvas, everyone said it.

I think, like, if people say something's a good idea, I always get a little nervous because if it sounds like a good idea, it just feels you're in a more competitive space. It's going to be harder. I think the key is stuff that sounds dumb, but isn't. And I think that's what I would, you know, starting a magazine in 2025, I think. think falls in that category of sounds dumb. Magazines are dead or dying. But the thing underneath it was this desire to have more ways to do the thing that we love to do, which is find people, learn about them, tell the world about them.

I suspect it won't be long until that's much bigger than even the podcast, which itself is, you know, very, very big. The surprising thing is I think you want that to be the case. What specifically? Colossus being bigger than the podcast. Of course. That's not an of course thing. You've got to unpack that.

You've got to explain why you feel that way. I know you don't know how other people view you, but I get a lot of this because they know of our association. Like, they're like, this is the best, you know, business interviewer in the world. And this is incredible. Like, why would he not want that to be the biggest thing? I'm not saying I want to keep doing that. I know you. I know that.

For sure. I love it. But I think in your heart, if you had to choose, you like, no, I'd rather have the profiles to be bigger. Because you like, again, this goes back to how we start the conversation. Like, I really do believe you'd like to be the guy behind the guy. that's true but the reason for me is like almost so obvious that it's uninteresting which is well if a bunch of other talented people are doing this and then creating these things first of all i'll have more of them so i can enjoy them more and i'll i'll get to enjoy it just like everybody else like i can't tell you how fun it is to get the first draft of one of these things in slack like the things that make me the most giddy in my work are some new draft that they've created for Colossus and some new research report on an investment created by my incredible team on that side, who in many ways are just doing the turtles all the way down.

It's the same, like, deep investigation, publishing, writing, clear thinking. When I get one of those two things in the morning, oftentimes sometimes there's days where I have several of them, those are the best days. And so selfishly, I would just love a world where I'm not needed at all because that means we're creating more of them. Obviously, I'm limited by my own bandwidth and time. I'll always do interviews. I hope it gets bigger and bigger. I don't want to like fade into the sunset, but I hope this is much bigger because that means I get to hire more incredible, talented people and hopefully put them on a career trajectory that's the best it could possibly be. And that's

incredibly gratifying. I get to read more of these things. I get to do this thing that we love to do for more people and point the light that we're trying to cultivate on more and more talented people, that's like unbelievably exciting. I hope it's not just writing. I hope it's documentary. I hope it's who knows where it goes. I hope we start convening people in small situations where meet this person, that to me is the most fun thing in the world. And so a world where it's no longer rate limited by my time and energy is much more exciting than a world where it's me. And so, yes, I would vastly prefer that all the rest dwarf whatever I do, even though I hope what I do lasts forever and as big itself.

I don't remember the first time you brought up this idea to me. Like what? Now it seems obvious in hindsight, right? Because people have been reading profiles. Yeah, now everyone's launching a magazine and it's going to be like podcasts. But not you that, like specifically profiles where like people have, been reading, like you mentioned that, I bought that book, too, that you told me about the New York Yeah, yeah.

Like, people have been, they're always interested in people. I remember reading, um, Larry Ellison loves to pick fights, and he thought it was like really good. And he didn't like the fact that Oracle, he had no media strategy for Oracle. And he's like, I, like, Oracle is just compared to other database companies that I don't like that. I want to be compared to the best companies in the world. Yeah. It's like almost like this idea, me and you bond over that we both learned from Jared Kushner, a constant refinement of association. So he's like, I don't want to be, compared to Seabass or any of that, or whatever. how are you say, like, these other...

What is it? That's from dumb and dumb. But I don't know. I don't know what it's called. David, not an investor. Podcasting. Forever. All my vocab comes from the written word.

So, you know, everybody makes fun of me because all my DMs are like, you mispronounce this word. It's very obvious, buddy. But his whole point is like, I don't want to be associated with these people. I want Oracle being the same vein as IBM or Microsoft. And so he's like, the way I'm going to do that is I'm going to pick a fight with Bill Gates and Microsoft.

And he does this huge fight. And originally he thought that it was going to be, you know, Microsoft as Oracle. And he's like, but people are interested in personalities more than interested in companies or technologies. So it became billionaire A versus billionaire B. And it greatly elevated his profile. And then he said that Oracle and Oracle's products were risen, like came along with the increase. So the reason I bring that up is because people are fascinated with profiles. of other people.

We are fundamentally more interested in other people and what they can teach us about ourselves and anything else. You just, what were you thinking? Because, like, that was something that existed forever. And who writes great profiles now? I don't even see any of them. That's the other part that's exciting is because I like things that are really hard.

Okay, so originally hardship. We didn't talk as much about hardship. I think you've been talking a lot about doing something that's different just because it's different. I would add on, which I think is interesting and correct, But I would add on to that, like, it should be different and really hard, like really hard to do. And if I just, I'm sampling all the profiles we've written in my head, some of them are ridiculously hard to write.

Not only because of all the hours and work that has to go into it and the talent as a writer that has to go into it, but sometimes it's sensitive parts of the person's life that's never been written about and they've never talked about. And maybe they don't want to talk about it or they don't want you to talk about. and it's the coaxing it out of them, and that takes time and trust. And so the thing I can't wait for is the profile that we write 10 years from now that we start working on today. We have this idea, which we've started to do, where we just ask people, can I just have lunch with you once a year?

I'm not going to do anything with it. Just like, I'm just going to, I just want to start collecting the line. And maybe we'll write something in 10 years, you know. So things that are. really hard to make are really interesting to me. And I think people stopped doing profiles because they're really hard to make. They take time. The business model kind of sucks. Like the pay is terrible. You know, profile writers are not paid well. The world went a different direction. It's much cheaper and faster to make a stupid fucking TikTok than write a 50-page profile about

someone that's careful and intricate and well-written. And I believe, you and I certainly talk about this all the time. The world is desperate for some stuff like that. The world is so sick of this crap just all day, every day. It's just crap. And it's, everyone makes the junk food comparison because it's a perfect comparison. Like junk food got to where it was because it's been optimized for us to want the most of it possible, whether or not it's good for us. It's obviously horrible for us. It's the same thing with most content. And everyone knows this in their gut. And we all want, something more carefully created. And I think profile might be perhaps the ultimate expression of that.

If a documentary is like the ultimate profile, maybe that's even harder than writing in profile. But yeah, I'm interested in stuff that's very hard to make and that's singular that can't be easily copied. And I mean, the literal answer to your question is kind of funny was somebody, I'm actually seeing in Monday gave me the idea to potentially buy this existing magazine. And we didn't buy it because I like to create our own things primarily. But it was notable to me that this magazine, which had been around for a long time, had all these incredible, I'd never heard of the magazine.

And it had all these incredible people on the cover. And I thought, this is strange. Like, why are these people doing this magazine that no one's ever heard of? Big names. And it dawned me, I was like, oh, it's the cover. Like, people can't say, know to a cover. And so I tested that theory out and it was true. And I think what that means is it's like the ultimate form of spotlight and attention that you can give to somebody. And so that's what got me actually literary spinning on like, oh, maybe we should, I would love to have a cover that I could dole out. Did that idea come before or after you read Jeremy Stern's piece on Palmer Lucky? Before. So I was, I was then on the hunt. And this is another idea that you and I talk about.

often, which is, if you want to hire someone for a thing, just go consume as much of the thing made by a million people as possible. Whoever made the best one, go for them. There was this funny conversation during COVID, an investor friend of mine, one of the great investors ever who's now retired. It was part of the Zoom conversation. And it was, the topic of the conversation was attributes of great founders. And at some point, someone goes, well, maybe it would be easier to think about them, not as founders, but as inventors. And everyone thought, oh, this cool idea. Okay, let's talk about them as inventors, not as founders.

And then someone said, well, what are the attributes of a great inventor? And people started, you know, they're this, they're this, they're this. And this one investor's face started contorting. And you could just see that he was frustrated by all these answers. and it got to him. And he was like, morons, who cares? Did they make a good invention? If the invention is good, the inventor is probably good.

Yeah. And so I think you and I have taken that approach to, I certainly have to finding people. Like, just look at what they did. If they're the, Jeremy wrote the best profile that I read. It turns out he's a great profile writer. Like, he's written 10 more and we'll write 100 more. So I was then on the hunt after I had this, I and we had this idea to go now, okay, now let's go find the best people to do this thing.

People vastly underestimate the important of volume. Like whatever you're into, just be into it more than anybody else. And like you'll be able to tell like what is a good idea, what is a bad idea? It's like this constant refinement of taste. In fact, I was shocked at the way your profile started with about Josh Kushcher, where it was like this visit to Rick Rubin's house. And I'm a huge Rick Rubin fan. I read a biography on him.

I think it's like episode 245 founders, did that. I think some of his interviews and stuff he says in an interview. It can be a three-hour conversation and you just hear like, there's like a 45-second clip that makes everything, like it just makes perfect sense on,

like, I needed to hear that whole three-hour conversation just to get that 45-second clip and that 45-second idea in my head. But if you think it's like, the guy started, you know, his record company in like 1984 in his dorm room. And he's been in the same business,

he's worked with all these different musicians. In fact, he said something that was interesting to me and actually screenshoted it, saved it, and I reread it on my phone. And he talked about that the most obsessive artist he ever worked with was Eminem, which is like, wait a minute, you worked with everybody.

You've had a four-decade-long career, like, why is that the case? Like, that makes me want to know more about that. Our mutual friend, Brent Beechore told me a hilarious story one time. You know, Brent Scott, he owns a bunch of different companies, and sometimes those companies need a CEO.

And he found himself, I think, at like a lunch or a dinner with Charlie Munger. And so he's like, you know, I'm this young guy. I think he was right like 35 at the time. He said, I own these like 12 companies. How, you know, how do you and Warren find like great COs? And Charlie's just like, we just find somebody that is a great CEO and say, come do that for us. Yeah. And Bryant's fall off.

He goes, yeah, but what about hiring for potential? And he goes, we don't do that. It's a beautifully simple, like, idea. He's really good. Can you come do this over here? Yeah. Yeah, people show you. And I think that also, if you invert that to use another mongerism,

it serves as great advice, too, which is, if you're trying to get ahead, put stuff out in the world that people can find, Hinky would call these breadcrumbs, put breadcrumbs out into the world so that people see it and are amazed by it. Like, if you create a single thing, not, it'll be 10 things, just one thing that people are amazed by. Put it for a year of your life into making one amazing thing that people are amazed by. And amazing things will happen, I promise you. Like, the internet is amazing at sharing something that is great. You say there's always room for great, one of your maxims.

That's true. Great takes time. Great's hard. You just proved this. The idea of there's always room for great came because so many. people are like, we don't need another podcast. I was like, okay, so we don't need any more music. We're going to stop making music. We're going to stop making movies. Like, no, it's just like, we need less bad shit, but that's always going to happen. Like, there's always room for great.

You just prove this with the profiles. Yeah. Like, that idea was just hiding in plain sight. It was just not being done well. And it's like, well, what if I just take this idea and not make it shitty? Well, how Walt Disney, towards the end of his life was very fascinating because, you know, everybody associates him with the animation and Mickey Mouse and everything else. And yet, when he's towards the end of his life, he's asked, like, what is the, things that he's most proud of. And he said, he named two things. He said, keeping control of my company because he lost control of his first company and he's lost control of the first characters he made and Disneyland. And Disney was his obsession. In fact, I read this book called Disney's Land.

I think it's by this guy named Richard Snow. And it's not about the animation. It's not about everything we know him for. It's about how he thought about making this amusement park. And at the time, amusement parks were think of like low quality. They were like kind of scammy because traveling carnies. Yeah, exactly. Like, you would come in there and there would be, like, games to play, and you'd get ripped off because the games were set up and everything else. And he's going around trying to raise money for this very unsuccessfully. And they're like, yeah, but, you know, amusement parks are, like, kind of, like, trashy.

He's like, that's the point. Mine won't be. Yeah. It's because, like, mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. And he's just like, I'm just going to take every single part of this and make it better. And then remove the parts that don't make any sense. And like, that's a great filter for like finding, you know, new things to create in the world. By the way, I spent my 20s basically just reading.

And I read more than you can imagine. I mean, you're probably the one person that can't imagine it because you did something similar. But I wasn't just doing, I mean, literally everything I could get my hands on thousands and books and profiles and everything. And I started the podcast in part because I started to feel this awful. feeling of like this is happening in this weird isolated way like just me and my notes i'm not talking anyone about these books and so i wanted to i wanted to start sharing which is where that book email came from that you originally that's where the audience came from like i used to have this saying learn build share repeat and just like do that until i die um and i believe in that and so it's still wait

learn build share repeat yeah still really good still works yeah and it's maybe that's my that's my governing principle probably like you said before. And yeah, it's an incredibly powerful loop to go on. But the 10 years of reading prepared me to be a good producer of profiles because I've seen great. I've seen good. I've seen average. I've seen bad. My reps are very, very, very high. And that's another thing I always tell people, especially young people, is like what is the thing where you naturally have a lot of reps? Because you just don't. like it and find some build off that because there's this learning by doing concept like you get better at something just through being prolific in the thing and most people have a thing for which they are

naturally prolific even that if that's following your sports team or whatever whatever it might be like what's the thing you just can't help but do crazy high rep count of probably that's a good clue to like where you could go build one of these compounding curves for yourself and for me it was read that my first love was reading that love of reading became the email list you know here's my four favorite books from the month um the email list gave me my first set of people to listen to the podcast the podcast introduced me to all these people helped me build my business and sell it successfully you know and on and on and that led to the it led back to the profiles and me building my business successfully in software got me to all of these people building early stage companies writing

these small checks, writing these small checks got me to this Series A investment that caused me to create this new investment firm. Creating this new investment firm caused me to go invest in all these companies in a bigger way and be more impactful on them and their trajectories than I could have been on my own. The whole thing is Daisy Chained Together because I loved reading fucking books in my 20s. And I did something about it and I started telling other people which ones I liked. That's how it started. That's it. And all of that was unprecedented. predictable. Back to why I don't like goals, if you had told me when I sent that first email to list my goals, none of those things that I just listed would have been on my sheet. I wouldn't

have even known to think about them. My own experience has cemented my belief in this growth without goals. Like, I wanted to grow. I love the idea in weightlifting Jeremy Giffin and I talk about it all the time, a progressive overload of like always like a little bit harder, a little bit more, like go to failure, go to failure, go to failure. But you don't, the beautiful thing about life, is you don't know where that's going to take you. God, I never in a million years could have predicted any of this crap. What's even more exciting is it doesn't stop. Some set of stuff's going to happen over the next 10 years,

which if I tried to make a goal list today, I would be unable to predict. It's going to be so much fun. But it all started with, I had a thing I loved naturally. I just liked to read books. And I think that's profoundly cool. Now, you know, obligatory disclaimer that, like, I've been so unbelievably luck. I had the privilege to sit and read a gazillion books and not be spending all of that time

just getting ahead like you had to because, again, I was very lucky. The situation I was born into in life with the parents I had and, you know, the things that were easy for me, I didn't have to pay for college, all this stuff made it possible for me to do these things. And I think that's important to acknowledge. But nonetheless, like, you found your way. there, you found the passion, you found the high rep passion, and now look, now look, that's like my constant urging to people. Like, it's there, I promise. There's something. Just go find it.

I think it was beautifully said. We haven't even touched on investing, which I want to. I want to talk about, is it code red, seeing red? What is, there's this fantastic story that we've talked about before where you were going to make an investment in somebody's fund. Is it seeing red? What did this person? and say about you? He said I was red on the color wheel. Okay, red on the color wheel. Can you tell that story?

Sure. So you, me and Sam Hinky, were walking, and I think you asked Sam, what's my biggest weakness or something? No, you were interview. I was in an interview. When you just said, like, this all started from, because I, like, loved to read,

and then that started this whole chain events, and now you have this other parallel thing that you just do compulsively, that you can't help, which is like exactly what you said. I'm doing 10 invests like, the best episodes a day. I'm just recording, you know, I'm doing 50 a week and I'm just recording one. Like, if we're in a group, I know what's going to happen, you're just going to

start lighting people up a question. So we go on this five-hour walk, which Sam did not like that a lot. People don't know that you're like a goddamn billy goat, okay? Like, I, it's just, you walk way too fast. You don't go around obstacles. You just go straight over them. That's why I call you a billy goat because they do that in real life. Like, you know, if you're out in nature and usually people, there's a mountain here, like, I'll follow the trail around it. It's like, no, Billy just go straight over and up. And that's like walking around with you. And so we're in Columbia, Missouri, of all places.

We're only like five-hour walk. And essentially it's a five-hour private and that's like the best episode, except you're interviewing both of us. And you would ask the other person questions about the other person who was like really, actually was like really impactful and important for me to understand myself. Because again, like somebody you trust

and you know has your best interest in heart and is not trying to criticize you just for criticism. I think a lot of people are hypersensitive to criticism. And if it's like some random stranger, okay, that makes sense. But you know that person cares about you. You know that person wants the best for you and they're telling this about you. You should, even if you don't agree, you should think about it for a little bit. I've thought a lot about what he said over the years.

And I definitely agree. Like, he was right. So I don't know how this got turned on you, but that's when he said you're code red. No. Red on the color. There you go. Yeah. What does that mean?

Well, first, just a thought on Sam, which is, it's hard to imagine a higher compliment I could pay someone than the role that Sam plays in my life. The way I would phrase it maybe is, I have more conversations with Sam when he's not there than when he is. What I mean by that is I'm often finding myself wondering in a situation. Like, what would Sam think about what I'm going to do here? I so value his character and judgment and fidelity and just so many things about him. But what a role to play in somebody's life. Like he's the one I invoke in my head, one of three or four people that I invoke in my head of like, what would this person think about, you know, this thing I'm about to decide on?

But back to the story. So he said, yeah, it was something like what's my biggest week? And he described me as being red on the color wheel, which he explained meant that when I'm interested in something, I am intense. And I've always been this way. I am voracious and intense and aggressive. And I would say I have a skill at making things happen when I'm interested in them happening. And maybe that's one side of the sword. The other side of being red on the color wheel is this like locked in intense. The other side of it is that, like, the moment that attention is focused elsewhere, I can tend to whiplash around a lot and change my opinion. This is known lovingly amongst your friends as your eye of Sorot. Okay. Where, like, if Patrick is focused on you, he will, like, he will make shit happen. But if it's elsewhere, you're not, I've had to fly, literally, to Greenwich.

Like, dude, get back. I think we need to focus on this. I had to get in your, because you're, in some cases, it's like a physical presence thing. Yeah, yeah. It's not just like, I can get you on the phone, but I was like, no, this is not good enough. So that's the strength, your strength can be your weakness.

You know, it's interesting. I learned soon about myself recently, which I at first was terrified about, and now I've come to a view as everything is double-edged, you know, which is I have, if you close your eyes and try to visualize something, a red cardinal or something, there's a degree of how visually sharp

that thing looks in your mind's eye when you close your eyes. For me, it's just black. I can't visualize anything. I can't see anything. I'm like, wait, I discovered this like a year ago. I'm like, wait a minute, you can see things with your eyes close.

Like, what are you talking about? We were Brad Jacobshouse having breakfasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very disturbed by this. And he tried to fix it. Yeah, I know. Yeah, he tried to put me through a guide in like, he tried to hypnotize me

into visualizing something. It didn't work. So, anyway, The other side of that sword, it freaked me out that I couldn't see anything with my eyes closed. But the other side of that sort is like when I'm focused on something like here right now, I am not thinking about other stuff. Like it's just all of this. I wish it wasn't the eye of Sauron. That sounds so bad.

It said in a loving way. I understand. So Sam's point was you're red on the color wheel and when your attention shifts, it can be whiplashy for those around you. What was the example he gave, though? It's too good of a story not to tell. The example he gave was that Sam at the time was raising his first fund. And I was going to be an investor in the fund. And so he called me and said, you know, putting this fund together, it's small, limited group of people.

I'd love to have you if you want to do it. Hell yeah, I wanted to, of course. And told him the amount or whatever. and then he called me back like a month later and it was like, okay, like I have the docs already and, you know, we're ready to go. And you're still in for this much? And I said something like, well, I can't, yes, I'm still in, but I can't do that much because actually like I have also launched a fund. And he was like, what? And I said, yeah, you know, I need to make a GP commit to my own fund. And so I'm, you know, this is before I sold my business. It's a little bit, you know,

tighter situation, and I have to reduce the amount. And he started to tease me because he was like, wait. So when I first called you a month ago, you had never even thought about having a fund. You have never heard you talk about that. I don't think you'd ever thought about it. And now a month later, like you already have a fund, like a month later, like it's raised and done. And I think that's a good example of like, yeah, some opportunity came out of left field. There was this investment opportunity in one company that led to a fund. very quickly in the summer of 2020. And so, yes, I like to move really, really fast when I'm interested in something, but my

interest does shift around. And I don't think this is a good thing, by the way. Like, I don't want to whiplash people. And I realized, thanks to Sam, that I was whiplashing people. I would be so excited and able to galvanize people around an idea. And then I would change my, and this still happens, but I would change. my mind and completely forget about the idea back to like people that have this lack of visualization thing also have quite bad event memory I don't ever think about

stuff in the past like ever and so I not only can I change my idea but I literally never think about that thing again that I was so passionate about in the moment you know for a short period of time and that is jarring for people you know that are like signed on to do a thing and then a week later you're like what are you talking to what thing like we're doing this thing and so I've worked pretty hard to narrow the simplify my life with rhythm and harmony, focus on fewer things, like get less distracted by what I would call like the flavor of the month club, which is something that can definitely snare me for sure. Yeah, now that you say that, I haven't had any like I have Soron moments with

you in quite a while. You've kind of fixed that. The best AI and software companies from open AI to cursor to perplexity, use WorkOS to become enterprise ready overnight, not in months. Visit WorkOS.com to skip the unglamorous infrastructure work and focus on your product. Ridgeline is redefining asset management technology as a true partner, not just a software vendor. They've helped firms 5X in scale, enabling faster growth, smarter operations, and a competitive edge. Visit Ridgelineapps.com to see what they can unlock for your firm. I heard Ari Emanuel on your podcast say something that was actually pretty smart, where he's like, his idea of like, especially when he's trying to do a deal, he like over communicates. And I think a lot of

that is like the problems, like I didn't understand that about you because I had never worked with before. And then I was like, I don't get it. Like, what, what's going on here? And then other people that knew you explain that. And I'm like, oh, like, I'm like having an issue, and we've never even had an argument or a fight. I mean, one thing that I love about it's like, we worked together for years. And we had like a, we never had a paper anything. We never had a contract. We just said, hey, this is what the agreement is. We shook hands. And like, we did what we were supposed to do up until the very, like, it was just like exactly how I want to. I don't want to deal with people where there's like, have to deal with people where there's like a bunch of contracts. I want to know it's like,

you gave me your word, I gave you mine, and then, like, this is what we're going to do, and we'll, like, figure it out. But the, I think what was happening there is, it's, like, there's all this, like, unsaid stuff that you think we are looking at on the same way, and yet if we just said, oh, I, like, this is how I'm thinking about this thing, and this is how I'm thinking about that thing. And, like, just essentially just over, communicate as much as possible with the people that are important to you, because then you're not going to have, there's no unspoken

assumption, you know, and then if you let it sit there too long, then you have another unspoken assumption on top of that one, then things can get like really, really weird. I think a lot about leadership because ultimately my main job is to back people with LP dollars, lots of them, that have been entrusted to me as a fiduciary into companies led by these people that were backing that are usually pretty early in their company-building journeys. So you're mostly or largely backing the person and the team versus the mature business story. And pretty important that that person's a good. leader. And I think one of the things I underestimated about great leaders that Robbie Gupta,

who's another person that I would list, you know, and people that have really impacted me. At one point, I called, like, everyone I knew. I was like, well, define good leader. Just, I'm going to do a survey. And Robbie gave my favorite answer. He was like, it's not hard. Like, a great leader is someone that other people want to follow. That's it. And everyone else had given much more ornate definitions, and Robbie's was my favorite. And what I've learned about what is shared in common amongst people that others want to follow. One of the big ones is that they are hyper-communicative with those people. And they're consistent and they lead from the front. They, you know, they take risk. They take arrows for the team. They communicate like crazy with the team. If something's

changing. They over-communicate it, you know, they're honest, like all these things add up to someone that people want to follow. And I think I was quite bad on that dimension for a long time, not because I was trying to be bad, just because I was so excitable. I am so excitable. Like, when I find something new and interesting, like, I just cannot get enough. But very often, And that means I'm billy-goating up ahead of the pack and forgetting, like, oh, wait, I need to, like, there's all these people that I want to do this with. I don't want to just do this alone. So that's been a big lesson for me that has taken a while to learn. But yet another thing to credit Sam with.

Some of the best leaders, like when you see in, like, company buildings, like, history, spaces, sprinters, like, really think of them as, like, they're teachers, and then they understand they need to repeat, repeat, repeat. I would say repetition is super spasive. You gave me a great, like, Catholic saying where it's like repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. So I think of like Jim Sinigal, the founder of Costco. He's this great line in the book, this biography of his mentor in the guy named Soul Price, who basically influenced, he's like the most influential retail of all time.

Jim Sinigal was mentored by him. Sam Walton took more ideas from him than anybody. Bernie Marcus got the idea for doing Home Depot from Soul Price. Jeff Bezos took ideas from Soul Price. It's just incredible, like how influential this guy was, and most people don't know he is. And in that book, he says that if you're not spending 90% of your time teaching, you're not doing your job as the leader of the company. And what he is, it means like teaching what our philosophy is, what is our purpose, what we do, how we do it, why we're doing it.

And you just repeat it over and over again. I just did this episode called How Elon Works, which is, I think, the most downloaded episode of founders ever. Like, it's just nuts. And what I was shocked is even, you think of, you don't think of Elon as like, he's definitely a singular character. There's nobody else like him that I've found living are dead. There's usually some kind of historical equivalent of anybody. I haven't found an historical equivalent of him. And you would think, oh, he's working on like seven different companies at a time.

He can't possibly be like this. And he was mentioning like that algorithm, that four-part algorithm he had that he uses in all his companies. He's like, I say it so much. I repeat it so much that you'll be in a meeting and my executives will be mouthing the words along with me. They know what I'm about to say. And I think that has to do with like over-communication. It's like, we are going to be on the same page. I'm not worried that you hear this for the 10th time.

I'm worried that you're not understanding where we're going or how we're going to do it. And so I think about that like a ton, like repeat, repeat, repeat. Yeah, the joy of that sort of thing and that sort of leader, my favorite, you have all these great maxims, my favorite maxim, pretty much the only one we use in my business with my team, is the reward for great work is more work. And I find that saying that maxim to the right person,

like the kind of person I want to spend time with, their eyes go wide and they understand it immediately that the reward for great work is not money, power, fame. It is the privilege to get to do more of this thing that I love doing. The problem with coming up with like good terms for this stuff, we use this term life's work, is that immediately everyone else starts saying it and it ceases to have any meaning because like now every goddamn meeting I'm in,

like, I'm doing my life's work. And my experience is that almost nobody is doing their life's work. even a lot of great founders, I would say it's not their life's work. I love the fact that Thomas Jefferson on his tombstone has three things that describe his life, but one of them is not that he was the president of the United States. It's author of the Declaration of Independence, founder of the University of Virginia, not president. I think that's so interesting.

And so I think a lot about, like, is this thing this person is doing going to be on their tombstone? And usually the answer is no. And the reason I like this concept of life's work so much, which I would define as a lifelong quest to build something for others that expresses who you are. All three parts are really important. Say that one more time. A lifelong quest to build something for others that expresses who you are. And we have trained ourselves to see this in people. By the way, the best way to figure this out, my favorite question for founders is literally just take me, give me two hours.

Tell me your whole life story up until the point you founded your company. We'll talk about your company later. Like, just tell me what got you to here. Back to Best Story Wins, originality, hardship, transformation. In the business context, it's, I want someone that's lived a very unique path. I find success in startups is the result of path dependency very often.

Some unique set of lessons and experience led to you being the right person to do this thing. And then hardship, of course, you know, the harder the business is to build, the harder it will be to copy. You know, I think that's really important. Transformations about the customer, you know, If you build something crazy hard, the customer's life will get way better service. So I think this powerful concept of life's work can be applied to ourselves to make great investments. And it's really rare.

But the leadership qualities of like the reward for great work is more work. The reason I started talking about life's work and investing is these people come to realize you will not be rewarded with great work if you do not become a good leader. And a common pitfall that I certainly have fallen in before is when there's someone really talented, they can do a lot themselves. They can get a lot done themselves. And I refer to this as like heroics. And that's always necessary. A founder always has the sort of is the flame keeper of the spirit of the company. And I think founder-led companies are so much, of course, so much more interesting preaching to the choir here than professionally managed companies for the most part.

But I do think that like becoming a great leader becomes the most important way to secure more right to do great work. Is there anybody that you admire that was doing great work and then stopped, whether they sold their company, they retired, whatever the case is? Is there anybody that you know that like you can, you admire personally that stopped? There's tons of people I admire who change what they do a lot or have changed. what they do a lot, who stopped one thing and went to another thing. But they're doing something. Yeah. I don't, I'm just wired this way.

You are too. I just need to be doing something. I can't sit around. And so I'm drawn to people that want to make stuff. And so I have tons of examples of people who have been, have tried lots of things and made lots of things and moved on from things. and had chapters in their life, and then a new chapter with doing something totally different.

There's one investor that comes to mind, whose name is John Feffer. And John has been wildly successful. And it's almost like he picks whatever he's doing and as it gets to the tail end of it. He tries to find the thing in the world that is the most different from what he's doing. He says with glee that require him completely abandon

his current network because they're irrelevant for it. Like one time he went from being one of the key guys at KKR and then went to be like one of the most important guys in cryptocurrency. And then went from that to building like a grocery store chain in the UK. And each time he's like, I literally had to start from scratch and I love it. Like I had to build a completely new network of people. And so I know lots of people like John who have successfully hopped around. You know, I know your focus is more on people that do a thing for a really, really a long time. But I don't, I don't spend a lot of time with people that were prolific

creators of things that just stopped. I think they're like the saddest people. Like you're in this infinite game and there's some set of circumstances that cause you to like make that decision and here's an example. There's this really fun game. You can do it with your friends. You sit down and on piece of paper you write down 10 rolls that you play in the world, podcaster, father, whatever, friend. And then you tear them up so it's just one thing on each sheet of paper. And then you have to, in reverse order, 10 down to 1, slowly throw the rolls away until you're left with one. Okay, so one roll left.

It's a really interesting game. It's interesting for yourself, but also super interesting to see what your friends pick. First of all, what's on the list of 10, you can do this with attributes for yourself, too. Curious, hardworking, whatever, and then jettison those one by one. Fun game. I played this with my wife and my kids and my in-laws one time,

and I'll never forget it. My father-in-law had a very, very successful career as an entrepreneur and executive in the kind of health care and insurance world. and we were doing this game and his last one was grandfather. So that was like the role that he kept as his final most important one. And he is an unbelievable grandpillar, like the Michael Jordan of grandfathers. Like he is he is unbelievably good at being a grandfather. It's like makes me emotional thinking about it and so thankful for it.

And the difference it makes in my kid's life and his other grandfathers. in kids' life, it's extraordinary. And so Dan, this is his name, Dan is no longer a major healthcare executive. He's still an entrepreneur. He can't, he's not given it up completely, but he definitely devotes himself more to something like that, which in some sense is much smaller and in other sense is the biggest possible thing you could do. And so even the people that sort of like stop the commercial side that I love tend to find a thing to pour themselves into. and in this case, it's the same thing we've been talking about this whole time. It's an active service to show up at everything, to be the most reliable, to be the most fun,

just over and over and over again. In this case, in the role of grandfather. So I think that's exciting for my own life that maybe when I'm 70, I won't do any of this stuff. And I'll do something else that's totally different. But my attitude towards it hopefully will be the same. And that will be because I've gotten the privilege of watching people like him. do that sort of role at that stage of their life. So back to your original question,

the people I love and admire most do pour themselves into what they're doing regardless of what that role is, even as that role shifts around as life goes on. You gave me this term that we describe people that we don't want to spend time with that now I think I just use and I make that I came up with it,

and it's casual. It's like, do you want to go to dinner with this person or do you want to meet this person and like shorthand between me and you, we're always like, no, they're casual. Like, they're just not, it's the exact opposite. That's a beautiful story. Like, I went from, like, I pity these people that don't work anymore to, like, that person's better than I am. That guy's a better person than I am.

I mean, honestly, there's something very beautiful about the scope of the ambition shrinking so narrow. We talk a lot about, you know, the trillion-dollar coach. What's his first name? Less than Bill Campbell. Bill Campbell. I never met Bill Campbell. I wish I had. It's this beautiful archetype of older guy for just working with a couple executives.

And he worked with Google and some of the most famous companies, but was apparently like transformative in the lives of these people. But it was like five people or three people or whatever small set of people. And that's it. And he wasn't doing it for money, your fame or power, or any of this stuff. He was just doing it to help these couple people. I think that's a really cool exercise to be like, what if the only thing that's the only I was allowed to do in my life.

Nothing else was allowed was help three people. Who would they be and what would I do for them? Dan helping his four grandkids or something like that. That makes me excited for later stages of life when I think the ability to do something like that goes up. And that is every bit as successful in my mind and in my book as Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or pick the people that we all worship. in the business world. I'm amazed by them too, but there are flavors of success. And to me,

that sort of devotion, even if it's to one person, to your wife, to your kids, whatever, is every bit as successful and if not more so, because that shit will ripple through history. My son and my daughter will now behave differently because of the experience that Dan and my mother-in-law and my dad and my mom gave to my kids. So what's better than that? It's so unusual for us to even contemplate that like some of the decisions you're making right now are going to ripple through the generations. They're going to affect things way after that you're gone. Somebody, we talked about this, I think yesterday. Somebody took a bunch of like interviews I'd done and stuff I've said on the podcast and like literally made like a hip-hop album and there's like eight-track

hip-hip-hop album. I think it's called like David Center of Founders or something like that. and we keep talking about it, but I sent it to Hinky because the first one was like this idea of like generational reflection point. Yeah. generational inflection point, which is like the founder of the family. And, you know,

Hinky is rather religious in a way that maybe I'm not. And, you know, he's like, he's like, did you script this? I was like, no, I didn't, did you know about this? Like, no, like somebody just sent it to me. Like, I didn't, you think I'm making music about myself? Like, go on here. I wouldn't put it fast to it.

And so I was like, no. And, you know, he's like, yeah, I listened to a bunch of them, but like that first song, he's like, that's obviously like a sign from God. You should consider it a sign from God. I'm like, what? What is this? And we're on the phone. I was like, what are you talking about?

The reason that came to mind is just in that song, I guess I talked about, I think it was on your show where I was just like, you know, this choice by this man I don't remember. And I never met. I met him, but I don't remember him, which is my grandfather who was 30 years old, living in Cuba, no education, doesn't speak English, doesn't have money, has two jobs, works in a shoe, factory and as a butcher, somehow realized, oh, Fidel Castro, this is probably bad. I have to go to a country that, like, I don't know anybody. Yeah, I don't speak the language. And, like, that's just one choice, you know, three decades later or whatever, I'm going to be born. And now I'm born in a, capitalistic, greatest country in my opinion, greatest country in the world, as opposed to that, like, that one decision by somebody I don't remember, like, ripples through the entire generations.

This is a very interesting thing to contemplate when you were trying to make your decisions. The last thing on his list was grandfather. What was the last thing in yours? The story was so overwhelming, I honestly don't remember. It was probably husband or father, one of those two. To me, those are the most interesting roles in life. You know, you and I have talked. You know how I feel about those two things.

And so it was probably one of those two where I probably cheated it and said, can I have both? And I hope it's, you know, I hope it's that till it's grandfather, I guess. But the available, we said, I said something like this earlier, but the depths available in those relationships are crazy to me. I can't believe that every couple years, I find a new level of those things. I just can't believe. Every time it happens, I'm like, I can't believe it's happening again. And in terms of like a place that can yield rewards, those are the most interesting to me.

but more generally like the maybe this is the theme of our conversation today that the the set of small set of relationships with people for whom I would do anything and that's how I'm wired like there's a certain category of person you're one of them that I whatever you need you need to explain it like I'll do it and getting to that point with people I don't think it's too short and and you know there's only so much energy in a day, and so you can't do this for a thousand people. But you can do it for 10, 15, you know, follow Dunbar's number or something. You can probably do it for 15.

And that is my prize possession. That list of people for whom I would do anything is my prize possession. And I think that that can probably be true for just about anybody. And so I try, hope to act in a certain way to deserve that group of people. and even if they don't feel the same way about me, that's okay. If I'm in their list of 50 and not 50 and it's fine. Yeah, I think that role game is quite fun because I think it pulls out of you where you have the most energy.

I think this exactly what we talked about today is like why I'm so obsessed with having conversations with, you know, people I find interesting. Obviously people I have like deep relationships with because like this is why I'm going to keep holding onto this idea that I'm not any of you. hearing people, I'm having conversations because we talk all the time, I had no idea where this conversation was going. And it went in places like, I learned stuff about you that I did not know. And so I really appreciate you saying yes to me and coming kicking and screaming on. I want to end by turning it around on you. What is the kindest thing someone's ever done for you?

One is they're related. So I'll tell them in order. The first was I had a cousin. I come from an Irish Catholic family where when you go to the family reunion, you get a sheet that looks like one of those maps from the 90s where you just have to keep unfolding it because there's just so goddamn many people. And so I have cousins who are technically

my third or fourth cousins that feel in my family more like a first cousin. One of my third cousins was a guy named Tim O'Shaughnessy. And when I was a bad student in high school, I was like a very good student as a young kid. I went to this giant high school in Connecticut, like 4,000 students. And I just partied way too hard and didn't get good grades and didn't take it seriously. And so there was a day, I remember very distinctly, I was at a friend's house, having stayed up too late the night before.

And my dad called me and said, hey, you know, you should probably come home. there's a whole bunch of very small envelopes here from colleges. So I actually got, I got rejected from every college I applied to, the first time I applied to colleges. And I got all the rejection letters on the same day, the bad day. So then I reapplied to some other schools. I wanted to go to the University of Notre Dame. And I called them and I said, where are some schools that have a compatible curriculum with yours? Because I would really love to work hard and then transfer.

So they gave me a list. I went to one of those schools. I got very good grades. I transferred to Notre Dame. So now I'm a sophomore in Notre Dame. And I didn't know anybody. I met that they do a, it's not like freshman year where you have all this amazing orientation. You transfer students.

They're like, here's your room number. Like, see you later. So I met like the couple other transfer students and that was it. And back to being shy, like I wasn't at the time good at like navigating a new social situation. I just, I wasn't good at it. So Tim, who I had met like maybe one. I didn't know Tim well. You know, Tim was from the Midwest.

I didn't know that well growing up. He took it upon himself to come meet me, find me. I remember very distinctly he brought me a fake ID. He went so out of his way for like the first six months to like organ transplant me into his social circle. And like maybe Tim owed me a beer or two, you know, a couple nights out and a beer was. his obligation as a family member. But instead, he would, like, call ahead to his friends saying, like, I'm sick. I can't go out, but Patrick's coming out.

Can you just, like, show him a good time? Just, like, over and over and over again. Like, literally, he just injected me into this community. Tim is the reason that I met my wife, which I'm going to come back to in a second, met my best man, met the only other groomsman in my wedding that wasn't a family member. So, you know, through this act of over-the-top kindness of just, there's nothing in it for him. He was just doing the right thing. it sort of set me up for the rest of my life, which brings me to the second thing.

So my first night at Notre Dame, Kim shows up with this fake ID that says I'm five foot four with blonde hair and blue eyes, and we go to a place called Boat Club, which let me in with this fake ID and was shut down for letting people in with this sort of fake ID like three weeks later permanently. May it rest in peace. And I walked into Boat Club, and the story of meeting Lauren, my wife was that was my first night in Notre Dame, the first bar I walked into, and she was the first girl that I talked to. And that is a crazy stroke of divine luck or something. But it was lucky because I was 19 when I met her, she was 20. And we've been together and married and have kids ever since. And the true answer to kindness is her, because for 20 years now, we just crossed the point of

lives where I've been with her more than I haven't in my life, which is so crazy. I'm not young anymore. I'm 40, but I'm not old. And to have been with her for more than half my life and to have grown up as an adult, whatever, they say your prefrontal cortex like matures when you're 25 or something. So like six years with her where I didn't even have a fully developed brain, it's by far the number one blessing is that she, yeah, we created this, we have created this life together in a way. that I mean the thousand things that 10,000 things that she's done that add up to that 20 years is like the very clear true answer. Tim tragically died very young, which was awful. But I think about him all the time because without him, none of this would have happened and this life wouldn't

exist. And so I love this story because, and I love this question, because whole lives are downstream of simple, quick acts of kindness. And without Tim, my life doesn't look anything like what it looks like today. All the things I care the most about don't exist, probably. And so I remind myself of that every day, which is why I love asking this question. That was awesome. Now everybody else gets to see what I get to see in private, and this is why you should do more podcasts. Thanks, Patrick.

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