Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy - Ronnie Fieg - Building Kith - [Invest Like the Best, EP.399]

Starting point is 00:00:02 Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy, and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open-ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. Invest like the best is part of the Colossus family of podcasts, and you can access all our podcasts, including edited transcripts, show notes, and other resources to keep learning at join colossus.com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sum. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of positive sum. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of positive sum may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, visit psum.vc. My guest is Ronnie Fike, founder and CEO of Kith. At age 13, Ronnie started working at David Z, an iconic New York shoe store where he sold Timberland boots to Jay-Z and Wallabies to Wooten Clan.

Starting point is 00:01:08 He worked his way up from the stock room and earned his first collaboration in 2007 when he worked with A6s on a new line of their gel-light threes. That collection sold out in a day after being featured in the Wall Street Journal, catching the attention of Adidas' president and launching Ronnie's reputation as a cultural touchstone. In 2011, he founded Kith, which has become one of the most influential brands in footwear, fashion, and culture. The business sells a unique curation of products that include Nike sneakers, Armani suits, Versace robes, watches, cars, and even $10 ice creams. Our conversation is one of the best examples of life's work that I've ever recorded. It explores how Ronnie's pure love of product has shaped everything from a campaign with Jerry Seinfeld

Starting point is 00:01:47 to his creative direction for the New York Knicks. Please enjoy this excellent conversation with Ronnie Fike. Ronnie, I have to begin our conversation with a fun little vignette and story that's personal, which is a couple of months ago, my brother-in-law, who's a huge kid fan, took my 10-year-old son, who's an emerging Kith fan, to the new Kith Kid store in New York. And it all started when I thought about it with that Seinfeld jacket. I'm sure if anyone's a fan of Kith, they can call to mind this image of Seinfeld wearing a jacket in a campaign that you did with him.

Starting point is 00:02:21 And we saw this on my brother-in-law many months ago, and that kicked off our interest in you and Kith and your brand and the whole story. And it was such a cool moment to see my kid and my brother-in-law do this. And so I thought the Seinfeld thing would be an interesting place to start because it was such an iconic and interesting thing that you did. It was atypical. It was new. The clothes that you chose were very distinctive on him. It just really surprised. And I'd love just to hear about that episode, how you came to it, where the idea came from, what it's like to do those things. We're going to talk about lots of examples like it, but that's the one that viscerally hit me as it relates to the Kith brand. And I would just love to hear the story. of it. That one's actually really interesting. And that's a good example of how long it could take for some things to come to fruition. Basically, for about five years, I wanted to shoot Jerry, and it became one of these bucket list moments for the brand and myself, being such a big fan of Seinfeld and the show, more importantly, what Jerry has meant to New York City. And I always

Starting point is 00:03:28 felt like he was a poster child for everything that we felt growing up in the city. So that took a lot of time. But basically, I became friendly with his wife, Jessica, who I met through another friend, through a mutual friend. And I started to have conversations with her about the vision of what it would look like for me to shoot Jerry. And we met about it a few times. And it was a very slow process of really getting her and her son actually, who's an incredible kid, to help really make them understand the purpose behind why we wanted to shoot Jerry. And it was mostly because I felt like people in our market already viewed him as such an icon because there's like stories about him and the footwear that he wore on the show in our world, which was studied because

Starting point is 00:04:22 it was on mood boards and became a big Tumblr moment that people spoke about. And it's funny, because when I was speaking with Jerry on set, so basically they got him to trust that it was going to be great. And he didn't know much about the brand. He doesn't know much about this world. And when I started to have the conversations about the footwear that he used to wear on the show, he had no idea that he was this guy that people looked to in that way. He was like, what?

Starting point is 00:04:48 So I showed him some of the photos and he was surprised by it, which is even more so the reason why I love this guy so much, because he never did anything in his life, in my opinion, to appear cooler than he actually is. You know what I'm saying? I think that that was such an eye-opening moment for me just to understand him a bit better through the shoot and through that entire day that we spent together.

Starting point is 00:05:19 And the result of it was exactly what I was expecting it to be and hoping that it would be. people that respected Jerry and understood his impact on the culture, seeing him in that product, in that way, I think really struck a chord. And I think that that's a big part of the DNA of the brand is that chord, is continuously striking these emotional chords. It's kind of like playing an instrument where you just get better at understanding what people want to hear from that instrument and how things sound.

Starting point is 00:05:56 And it's kind of like through my career is developed and become a life of its own in the sense of who we shoot, why we shoot them, and what the content ends up turning out to be. The Jerry shoot really snowballed this vision that we had of shooting icons in the way that we do. It's become a big part of our DNA. When you shoot somebody like Jerry who doesn't shoot anything ever for anyone, I think that kind of impact is what we always are searching for when myself and the marketing team meet and discuss what we want to do, that we use that as a huge example of how we were able to create emotion.

Starting point is 00:06:38 How have you gotten better at this skill, which is remarkable, the ability to know what will resonate? You just said you've gotten better at knowing what people want to feel. So what do people want to feel? What is that thing? Is it a common thread? or is it something that changes with time and circumstances? I think it's familiarity, but without knowing that they were looking for that specific feeling,

Starting point is 00:07:02 when you're able to give them that feeling, but it feels familiar. I think that that's what we've been able to do so well, is understand what people would want before they know they want it. That comes really from how I started my career or the middle of my first tenure at David Z. when I became more of like a merchandiser slash buyer is really trying to understand what people want without necessarily them knowing they want it yet. And that's the science. Understanding what people like, how they dress, why they're influenced, and then the evolution

Starting point is 00:07:36 of that is understanding how people digest content and product, which is our business basically split 50-50, is the design of product, the product itself, and then the storytelling around the product. It has to be, for me at least, the consistency of the experiences that we've had internally has made us professionals at that with our consumer and with the consumers that we want to cater to. It's understanding the way they think and the way they interact with content and what they want to see from product. And you have to really become the customer and the consumer to then understand it on that level.

Starting point is 00:08:18 which is what I am at the end of the day. I'm just a product nerd. And you really have to get to the core of product creation to understand the purpose behind anything else we do because it starts there. And then when you speak about something like a Jerry shoot, that comes from the right product that would be applicable to that kind of shoot with Jerry.

Starting point is 00:08:41 If I didn't have the right product and we didn't tell that story, the Queen's College story, which I thought was epic, to tell that story with Jerry, then the timing wouldn't have been right. And then I would have had to wait until the product would be right again to shoot him. So there's so many moving parts. Can you detail that a little bit more? That product story, the Queens College thing and Jerry, I'm really interested in this product creation process and that moment specifically. And again, everyone should Google it right now and look at the clothes. It's so unique. And one thing I want to come back to just so I remind myself is

Starting point is 00:09:16 this combination of familiarity with insane originality. Everyone in New York, myself included, is obsessed with Seinfeld. But I had certainly never seen a jacket like that or clothes like that, and I had never seen him wear anything like that. So it was this interesting juxtaposition of the familiar making me open to the new in this fascinating way. But I would love to zoom in on the literal clothes he was wearing and the story behind them, because I think it's really important.

Starting point is 00:09:42 When I first started speaking to Jessica, and she was, was straight up like, hey, it would need to make sense. There needs to be a reason why. And I said, of course, that's the only way it would work for us as well. I'm from Queens. And on the show, there's this moment where Jerry wears this Queens College sweatsuit. And he's a Queens College alumni. So the concept, when I thought about representing my city where I'm from, and I'm always trying to rent my city as much as I can. And the motto for the brand is just us, but we also own this tagline called New York to the world, which is such an important line for us as we start to work on sports,

Starting point is 00:10:23 New York teams, New York culture, and we start to open up in different regions in the world. That tagline becomes even more important for us as we start to expand globally. But going back to Queens College, it was a conversation that we had for a few years internally on what would be the right moment to put this out and to work on this project. And it was a Brooklyn Queen story because it was Brooklyn College, Queens College. It was the story of us opening in Brooklyn, me living in Brooklyn, but then also being born and raised in Queens and my family being from Queens.

Starting point is 00:10:57 Such an important part of my childhood and my life. So everybody always, typically, you see people walking around trying to represent where they're from. That's not new. But in the sense of trying to put the Queens College on the map, figuring out that would be the perfect marriage between what we would do with Jerry and the product that we want to put him in, that became the perfect moment where it would make sense to Jessica, to his son, to Jerry, for us to all come together and for it to be something that everybody would want to do. But when I say everybody would want to do, we were all on the same level of wanting to do it. It never works

Starting point is 00:11:40 well when one party wants to do something more than the other. But when we had this give back, which we gave some of the proceeds back to the school, it was a moment that I thought that Jerry was proud of, to be proud of that moment. But it didn't jeopardize any of the product aesthetic of the product that we were making at the time because the capsule in the collection for Queens College was really strong. And I felt like that was the kind of product that people would want to see Jerry in. So that became the why. And the why is always so important.

Starting point is 00:12:15 I know that people see things and basically don't think about the process as much as maybe they should or as much as they need to. But even though we have so many moments throughout the year, they're all baked about 18 months before the moment happens. So there's so much care and thought process and conversations. that happen that lead to these great moments that have made the brand. Hopefully people put it in the iconic bucket at this point because you look at the store, our Soho shop, it's become an institution.

Starting point is 00:12:55 And I say that because people show up there rolling a suitcase into the store coming straight from the airport off the plane. It's the first stop they make and it's not only in New York, it's become this place that feels like home for people that travel like myself. New York, Miami, L.A., Tokyo, Paris, London. It's really become this place where people can go and feel at home. Is that the feeling you want them to have when they walk into the store? If you had to name the feeling? Even though the stores are all very different from one another, purposely different from one another, because what I really don't like is what luxury brands do and they have

Starting point is 00:13:32 this copy and paste formula for spaces wherever they open, they're all the same. And the problem with that is when you open too many, then it starts to go basically in the opposite intention of wanting people to feel luxurious, but then it actually has the opposite effect because the experience becomes too accessible. So the concept for us is very different. We like to complement the city that we're in with the design of the space. So in the sense of they all feel like home, they don't necessarily all feel the same, but the people that work in the shop and the experience that people have in the shop, that is the same. And when you see the product and the product speaks to you the same from city to city, then you start to have this connection to the brand that is built off

Starting point is 00:14:21 of experience, which many CEOs will tell you from the creative space is what everybody is basically fighting for. I'd love to tell the story of how this whole thing evolved and where the foundation started, maybe with you learning that first lesson at David Z or whatever. It's so interesting to me how being a retailer, being a curator, then these collaborations and then the independent Kith brand have sort of co-evolved together. I don't know what the foundation is. Maybe it's one of those storm experiences. You said you first started thinking about that, you know, pretty young age. So what is the first part of that story? And then obviously I want to get into all the ways that it's evolved. But the story itself of the brand is so interesting and feels so

Starting point is 00:15:03 organic and rooted in your life. So what point would you begin it? What do you think that foundation is. It really starts. By the way, it's a great question. You're making me think of things I haven't thought about in a long time or maybe ever. I'm 29 years in retail now and you work so hard in so many hours that you forget that they're basically all linked. All these years are linked to the evolution of the business, but they're building blocks. When you think of the first time you became passionate or fell in love with something, I have a few of those categories in my life. I'm a big collector and I collect a lot of different things, but I collect them for myself. I think that what the term means now to collect or to be a collector has been overshadowed

Starting point is 00:15:48 by social media and the need to share what you collect with the world instead of the passion that I have of collecting for myself, a very different feeling. But people have been able to start collecting the brand for themselves and also to share with others, which it doesn't necessarily matter what your intentions are when you collect, as long as you're passionate about what you do. When you speak about the beginning stages of my passion for this world that I'm in now and product that I get to work on, that really feels nostalgic to a lot of people. But for me, it's basically like being able to relive those moments myself when I'm able

Starting point is 00:16:32 to work on these products and put them out. I get to share that feeling. That feeling that I had when I was younger, when I first started either collecting Marvel cards, because I think that that's really the first moment of collecting for me, started in 1990. I think that those moments of collecting comics first, then cards,

Starting point is 00:16:57 I think really set the path of understanding that my feeling of having a collection of something, was stronger than other people had. I became obsessed with having collections. And then in 1995, before I started working in 95, because I started working in June, my sister got her first credit card. And she was so excited to spend money on the credit card.

Starting point is 00:17:22 And she asked me, I was 13. At that time, she was 19. She's six years older than me. And she was excited to spend money on the cart. So she asked me to come shopping with her. So we went to sneaker corner, which was our footwear store, like athletic footwear store, sneaker store on the corner of 188th and Horace Harding in Fresh Meadows. And we went and they didn't have her size in the shoe that she wanted.

Starting point is 00:17:45 But she was like, Ronnie, buy something. I want to spend money on the card. I was like, okay. So I was wearing a pair of shoes that my parents bought me for my birthday and it was a pair of Flight 95s, which was a pair of Jason kid shoes. I loved them so much that the whole time that she was shopping in the store, I was wearing them but also had them in my hand. And I remember her saying to me, why are you holding the same shoe you're wearing?

Starting point is 00:18:09 Pick something else. And I was like, I don't know what would happen if these shoes get busted up because I was playing ball in them. I'm going to cry if I don't have these fucking shoes. I love these shoes. So I bought a second pair of that shoe. So when I went home, I put that second pair in my closet. closet and I kept it in the box and I just put it there. And then I started to think about it after like

Starting point is 00:18:34 six months when I started working at David Z. I still had a second pair of a shoe I was wearing, which was alien. It was not regular for us to think in that way. 13 in the school that I was going to and the kids I was hanging out with. It was just something that nobody did. Then I started working at David Z, which was a brown shoe and boot retailer. So at a time in the mid-90s where everybody was just focused on, the culture was focused on wearing hiking boots and brown shoes. So very different from the shoes I was wearing and the shoes that I was in love with. Aramax-95s came out that year, which changed everything. And is my favorite Nike silhouette to date. But I was only in tune with the world of athletic footwear.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And then I got to learn this whole other world of footwear because in the city at the time, at that point, the city was always like a year or two ahead of the boroughs. In the city, everybody was wearing a combination of these different boots. David Z. was the epicenter of hiking boots. At the time, it was Timberland, Dolomite, Bear A.K.U. boots, Danner, Trisetta, Red Wing, Durango, Clarks. those were the brands, polo cookie boots and technica, all these brands that were in the boot world were running New York City at the time, Manhattan, I should say. And I got to start working in the stock room.

Starting point is 00:20:04 All these boxes of shoes that were coming in, I would be responsible for creating stock numbers for them and consolidating them in a stock room. So I got to open up these boxes and discover product for the first time in that way. one-on-one time with new product coming in one after another, I'm opening with all these different iterations of boots and shoes. A couple of years of working in the stock room, once I hit the sales floor, the sales team on the floor were all at least 12 years older than me,

Starting point is 00:20:36 and they all became my family and started teaching me about these shoes, started teaching me about these boots and shoes. In the differences between them and functionality, a lot of these boots at the time were made in Italy because hiking boots back then that came from the mountains of Italy. And I got to experience that because I started later on in my career, I collaborated and worked on handmade boots in Italy and got to go to the place that really was the origin around the product that I started to love. So I started collecting boots, which nobody that I've ever known in my life did that. I started collecting dolomites in my aim,

Starting point is 00:21:17 my AOL instant messenger was like dolo collector, something like that. That's so funny. I started collecting these dolomite boots that I was very much in love with and I would just have piles of shoes and boots in my room and they would be new. I wouldn't even want to wear them because I saw them as art. I would hold a pair of these boots in my hand and I got to understand through conversations of different people that I worked with and the buyer that would. walk into the store and sometimes David would walk into the store and they put these boots on a pedestal.

Starting point is 00:21:53 These are like some of the best hiking boots ever made. So I started to really understand and learn the ins and outs of what makes a boot great. And every season, they would change the colorways and designs of these boots. And I didn't want to let these moments go, these moments that I shared with these new products that I had. So I started collecting them. And that was the beginning. I would say that that was a part of it. And then the different people that I would help because I was this young kid on the floor starting to help hip hop artists that were coming in and helping Nas and A-Z and Wu-Tang Clan and Buster Rhymes and Mace.

Starting point is 00:22:35 At that time, those were my heroes. The hip-hop music was just as important to me in my life than anything else. Being that young, they always say that whatever you love between the ages of 13. and 18 is what you love for the rest of your life. The way I was introduced to the music was on 8th Street between 5th and 6th Avenue, around the block from Fat Beats on probably the most culturally relevant block in the world. That was what 8th Street was because Saturday and Sunday basically were block parties every weekend and everyone was there.

Starting point is 00:23:10 You would see all of the stars. Everyone from the hip-hop world would go there on the weekends and hang out. I was listening to music and seeing these artists, it took over my life. And I bought turntables. I would shop vinyl at fat beats around the corner. Grace Papaya was on the corner. And then there was this store that would sell all colors of Yankee fitteds. After Spike Lee wore that red hat, then they made 20 colors of Yankee fittets.

Starting point is 00:23:37 And it would be fedoras and Yankee fittets like Kangles and Nueras. And then across the street, they would sell iceberg. That block became where everybody was. went to dress fly and buy their product that they would wear for the week and then they come right back the next week. But basically, the reason why I bring that up is because I got to see why these different stars and heroes of mine liked the product that they liked. And I became a culmination of all of their taste, of liking different products for different

Starting point is 00:24:12 reasons. For example, I used to help Wu-Tang buy their wallabies. They'd come in, and I would help all of them. They'd come in full clan to buy the wallies, and then they'd go up the block to this guy that would die them. And I was talking to Rayquan yesterday. He's like, one of my very close friends. And I get the chills just saying that right now, because the bridge between those two moments of yesterday versus when I was 14, 15, helping Wu Tang is crazy. But then I would wear wallabies. And I'm wearing them to my junior high school and taking two buses wearing royal blue suede wallabies with parasucco jeans with a royal blue stripe, with a royal blue mecca shirt

Starting point is 00:25:00 and a royal blue jacket looking like a smurf on the fucking bus. And I got laughed at. But exactly one year later, people were coming into my store from my school buying wallabies. And also new balance is the same thing. We were early carrying new balances, 5-7-6s, and I would wear new balances with a big N on the bus. And people in Queens would ask me, are those Nikes? Because they thought the N stood in Nike. Meanwhile, in the city, the top hip-hop artists and drug dealers, because they were coming in, calling them orthopedics and buying them because they used to stand on the corner wearing comfortable 1300s.

Starting point is 00:25:38 And that was the most expensive runner in the category at the time. So the reason why I tell you this is because you wanted to know the origin of where I fell in love with product, where my passion came from. And it came from living in such an incredible era where people were buying product for different reasons. It was like the sense of individuality was at its peak at the time, where people were buying product because of their own personal taste. And the way that they'd shopped the store was very different from the way people shop the store now. They'd come in and they'd actually be interested in product they never saw before.

Starting point is 00:26:18 There was a big discovery factor. So they'd shop 10, 15, 20 skews off the wall and then they'd have to narrow down to what they want. And for the purposes they were buying shit for, whether they were going out at night and they were buying hush puppies or derangos or they wanted a pair of boots for during the day or both. but that process and that experience that I had with those amazing individuals, a celebrity or not, I got to get into people's heads to understand why they like certain products and why they were buying certain products. And when you help thousands of people, imagine then learning the inner workings of people's brains of why they like things.

Starting point is 00:26:59 I'm picturing 1994 because it's the year that the Rangers won the Stanley Cup. And I think it's the year, Il-Matic came out too, if I remember the year. correctly. And the Knicks were in the finals and lost to the Rockets. That's right. And I'm thinking of Naz in the store choosing stuff and how that times a thousand created the foundation of what I'll call your product philosophy. And so I would love to hear just what your product philosophy is after all this experience, after doing so many things, if you had to sum up the philosophy behind the product you put out, how would you put it? I don't think that it's one specific philosophy that I would be able to put into words.

Starting point is 00:27:36 There was no way that I wouldn't work on product and make product that I felt was missing in the market. So fast forward, and I became an assistant buyer in 1999 or 2000. I think it was 2000. So I went from the stock to sales, assistant manager, manager, and then it became an assistant buyer. So I was splitting my time, and I spent one day in the office.

Starting point is 00:28:05 And when I did that, I started to work with the brands. I understood product on such a different level because of how long I spent working on the floor. So my understanding of product, when you start from there, when you understand the consumer on that level, the intimacy of that relationship that you have with the consumer, and then you become the buyer slash merchandiser of product you're bringing in, you're now working with the brand.

Starting point is 00:28:31 So that was me working with the brands and looking at product and actually having an opinion, not necessarily an opinion that mattered to the brand yet, but an opinion to myself of what I felt was missing. That I knew people wanted that the brands weren't offering. That is the beginning stages of creation. That's what started my engine. That's what really began this train of thought to want to create product that. I felt was missing in the marketplace. And everything that I wanted to make,

Starting point is 00:29:07 here's the craziest part. At this point, I have collected a lot of footwear. And I'm now the customer with, in my opinion, where I was at that time of my life, I had this taste level that was the best of all different cultures in New York City because I was helping and understanding all different types of people.

Starting point is 00:29:31 that were shopping, whether it was the tourist that was coming in from Japan buying Red Wings, or it was the dog walker in the village coming in and buying green sway chews. Believe it or not, that was a trend. I've noticed that the local consumer loved green suede athletic footwear. It's crazy how you could pick that up after the 20th consumer that you're helping, these guys from the village, they really gravitate towards green suede. And then I'm helping Lauren Hill, who came in and asked me for a pair of Gortex boots because she thought it was a brand and I had to explain to her what Gortex was. And this is back when Gortex was relatively new.

Starting point is 00:30:12 So not a lot of people knew. And then she had that line in the song with some Gortex and sweats. I make treks like I'm homeless. That was that time. I sold her her boots. And then seeing Fat Joe come in and Jay Z come in every weekend and buy a pair of construction, boot. So my taste was running across all these different people and then all of a sudden I'm buying for different brands, understanding what each brand is missing in the marketplace.

Starting point is 00:30:42 So then I'm starting to think about how I can contribute in that way. And fast forward to 2006, that was the first project I ever worked on was when A6, Mike McLaughlin, who was a salesperson at A6, really jumpstarted in my career, understood that I was a big collector, and I helped bring the A6 business from zero to a couple of million dollars at David Z because I opened the A6 account for David when we walked a trade show back then wrestling sneakers, believe it or not, were a huge fashion trend. And Anasuka Tiger was a combination of both Anasuka Tiger and the sports style performance-driven product that was becoming very fashionable. So I opened that account for David, and we built a great business, and the sales rep came to me with a catalog.

Starting point is 00:31:33 The catalog was basically an archive of styles that he asked me, would you be interested? The group loves you here. My boss loves you. We love the business that we built. Would you be interested in picking one of these to put out as a bring back of a retro style? So I'm flipping through the pages and rewind, back to, I would have to say it was 1990. So I was eight years old.

Starting point is 00:32:03 Reebok pumps were out around that time. And I really wanted a pair of Reebok pumps bad. And we were standing outside of, I think it was called tennis juncture or something like that. Sneaker store basically somewhere not far from where I lived. And I literally was crying tears. I was 10 years old crying tears, like begging my mom to buy me a pair of Reebok pumps. And she came out of the store and she bought me a pair of A6. July 3s that were $70 or something. So I ended up wearing those shoes and I loved them. I wore them

Starting point is 00:32:33 until they had holes in the soles. And I went back. I wanted to buy another pair when I was that young and they didn't have them. So they discontinued them or they didn't have them any longer. So when I flipped through the book, I saw that style and my eyes popped out of my head and I was like, that's actually a shoe that I loved that I owned when I was a kid. And I showed him pictures of me wearing it in 1990. And he was like, that's perfect. So that's the first shoe. He sent me a cad of the shoe.

Starting point is 00:33:02 I remember I printed it out and I started drawing arrows to different panels of the shoe with a description of what material in color I would want in the different panels of the shoe. This is before I started working on Illustrator. So basically, I faxed in back then three of these different drawings, which I still have in my mom's house somewhere. three different drawings of the shoe for them to basically make. And I got samples, it looked great, and then we launched the first batch of shoes called the

Starting point is 00:33:36 252 pack, because back then the minimums to make a shoe was 252 pairs. They opened up a mold, which is very expensive, for the investment of letting me work on a shoe, which was incredible. Then you have the responsibility to sell them. So here I am, three shoes, 756 pairs. They come in and I remember my friend working at Complex at the time, Complex Magazine. I got them into the magazine a few months earlier. So it was in the print mag.

Starting point is 00:34:09 And then I had this party that I put together on Fifth Avenue. And we sold 50 pairs that night. And the next morning, I remember being in the store. And we sold two pairs in the morning. and I'm like, oh shit, this is not good. Then this editor came in. I didn't know he was an editor, and he asked me a bunch of questions about the shoe,

Starting point is 00:34:31 and he ended up buying a pair. And then the next morning, biking to work because I was living in the city at the time, and I get a phone call for my mom, so I pick up the phone on the way to work, and I pick it up and I'm like, hey, what's going on? My mom is flipping out because my dad reads the Wall Street Journal and on the cover of the pursuit section,

Starting point is 00:34:52 there's a picture of the shoe, and then there's an article about limited edition sneakers. The blogs, by the way, were starting to bubble, but this is very early on. So I get to the store, and there's a line three blocks long to buy the shoe because of this article that came out. All the stores had lines,

Starting point is 00:35:11 and we sold out of all the pairs to the pair by the end of the day. Now, during this moment, people lined up. That day, the Adidas office moved in across the street for me on Broadway between Prince and Spring. And the president of Adidas was there, looked out his window, saw this line, came downstairs and came in and asked me, because I was managing the store, what's going on with this line? And I explained to him what happened. I showed him the paper. And I was like so excited. And he's like, did you take your lunch break yet?

Starting point is 00:35:43 And I was like, no. And he's like, do you have time to leave? I was like, yeah, I could leave for an hour. So I left with him and he walked me to the new Adidas original store on Wooster Street. And he's like, what if I gave you the ability to work on any shoe in the store? And I was like, what? I was like, that would be crazy. That would be amazing.

Starting point is 00:36:02 So I picked up the superstar and worked on the black tie superstar, which was back then I was dating this amazing woman who was working in Gold Bar. which was an amazing lounge slash club that was opening up. And it was the talk of the city. And I was helping her literally gold leaf the paint on the ceiling of gold bar. Like we would stay there and I would help her put this place together. And I got to meet the manager and the staff. And I was like, you know what? I would love to make, because they were going to wear suits.

Starting point is 00:36:34 The staff was going to wear suits. It was this beautiful place. I was like, I want to make this Adidas shell toe. Instead of the rubber toe, I want to make it all leather with a leather wrap midsole and make a dressy Adida super. that you could wear with a suit. And it was called a black tie. And it came with a black Adidas tie. I made a tie with three stripes in the garment district in the city. And it would come with a shoe. So then that shoe released and that had a story. And then the blogs started picking up

Starting point is 00:37:01 based on this article in the Wall Street Journal. The blog started reaching out to me. And that's basically how it started. Wow. It's incredible to think about how efficiently you seem to use your own experience as raw material or ingredients in these recipes that you then create. It seems like a major takeaway for creative people out there, whatever they're creating, to tap into their own unique experience more because no one else had that gold leaf experience or whatever. And it seems like if I think about the story of Kith's sense, and I want to come next to the moment of Kith becoming a thing and the thing you're working on and how it started. But it seems like, it's that story over and over and over again. It's like you earn your way into more new,

Starting point is 00:37:50 unique experience and then take that raw material and apply it back into the product. Is that like a right way of summarizing it? That's a perfect way of summarizing it. I think for every incredible creator in this world, and we're talking about creators in any category, whether it's architecture or art or music or product, anything, any great creator is basically sharing his or her DNA with the world of their experience that is then translated through product. Some people are born, I think, with this need to spread their experiences and emotions with the world. And some people spread them differently. Through art, through music. There's a thousand different ways to spread them. But for me, it's spread

Starting point is 00:38:43 through product. And it's spread through product for me because I love product more than anyone I know. When we speak about product, it's like, I could show you where I'm sitting right now. I'm sitting in an office that I built in a garage space that I built because I like to be around the cars that I built. It's that emotion that I try to share with the world so people can have the emotion. I want people to buy into product for the right reasons, for the reasons that I did growing up. And I think that part of why Kith has become so special is because we have become a trusted voice through product. So people trust the product because they know it's coming from an authentic place. And I think it's become relatable across many different categories of fashion and of product.

Starting point is 00:39:33 It's so hard for me to explain how this happened. I haven't been able to step back and look at it as this is where it started, this is where it is, it's more so like living it day by day. And just day by day, I've been able to tell more stories and I've been able to make more product that is on a wider spectrum that can affect people through their closets in a much bigger way now than we used to. Because I'm just head to tilt, like footwear, socks, pants, underwear, shirt, overshed. shirt, hat, glasses, car, bag is all my brand. I always dreamed of being able to do that.

Starting point is 00:40:20 Because it would be like one piece or two pieces of my outfit and it would bother me. It would bother me that it wasn't something I created for myself. I love the prompt of what do you love more than anybody else you know and leaning into that aggressively for whatever it is you create. I love that prompt. By the way, I'm a big fan of that because I always tell people, if you're not the hardest working person you know, then you're not working hard enough. That's another iteration of that.

Starting point is 00:40:49 It's a competition within yourself of being the best version of yourself. I want to do that in every facet of my life, not just in my work. I want to be the best dad that I know. I want to be the most efficient person I know with time. I want to be the best family member of my extended family that I know. try to be as caring as I can and always trying to better yourself in every facet. I think that that's been a piece of something that I've learned throughout my career, that I've been able to transfer that over to other pieces of my life, which has been great.

Starting point is 00:41:23 I love the line. The reward for great work is more work. And it seems like Kith has been an unfolding version of that. Can you describe the very earliest days of Kith, the brand, what the name came from, how it came together. It's become iconic. It's in all those cities you listed. If you're in New York, you certainly know Keth. But increasingly in the major cities around the world, it's becoming one of the iconic brands

Starting point is 00:41:46 with so many different interesting facets. And so I'd love, therefore, to hear where the name and the concept and the original story came from. It comes from the phrase Kith and Kinn, which means friends and family. In the city, during that time when I left David Zian created Kith around 2010, 2011 era, There was this attitude that you'd get where you felt like people were doing you a favor walking into certain stores and certain brands that felt like they were too cool for your business. And that really rubbed me the wrong way. I remember walking with my dad into a store, and I won't mention the name of the store.

Starting point is 00:42:30 And because my dad walked in and my dad is not a well-dressed man, he's just not into that type of shit. He's like a quirky dude. And I walked him in because I was trying to show him the kind of brands that I liked and different types of stores that I thought would be really interesting to him because he's never seen those type of stores. He's never really cared about the retail business in that way. But I wanted him to experience a few things while he was in the city and we were grabbing lunch. So I walked into a store with him and they shut the music off until he walked out. And I've always wanted to open up my own store and I had different.

Starting point is 00:43:06 intentions back then and they've obviously changed since but that was the fire that I needed that lit a huge fire under my ass to go and fucking do it and basically that's where the name came from because Kith means friends I wanted to create an experience where everyone who shopped with the brand felt like they were at home and felt like they had a lot in common with the people who were helping them. And it became this space for like-minded individuals that cared about product in similar ways than I did. And that's where the name came from. It came from the phrase kith and kin, which means friends and family. I like the four-letter word. I liked it. I thought it was unique. So I dropped and kin. And ironically, 13 years later, I started a brand under the umbrella last summer

Starting point is 00:44:01 called Andkin. Huh. And that's a more elevated price point with more elevated fabrics of apparel, just my version of the most luxurious product that you'll find from the brand. It seems like key elements of the entire story are relationship and community. It's in the name. Those are long games. Those are not things that happen overnight or quickly.

Starting point is 00:44:25 Even the Seinfeld story where we started, that was a long story, a five-year story. say a bit about the role of relationship and community and the way you've built community and the intentionality behind that because it seems like they're inextricably linked with the vibe and the ethos of Kith. When we built our first shop in Manhattan, so we built two shops simultaneously, one in the new Atrium store at that time, it was new, on Flatbush and Bergen, and then one in the back of Atrium in Soho on Bleakerman. and Broadway. In the back of Bleaker and Broadway, there was this driveway that when I walked in

Starting point is 00:45:05 to the space, I was like, what is this space over here? And they're like, oh, no one uses it to keep the gate close. It's a driveway. You can barely fit a car in there because it was a little more narrow than you would want it to be for a driveway. So I was like, this is interesting. I want to turn this into a courtyard. I want to turn this into a space where people can hang out. The concept of the store was to have two rooms and we started off selling multi-brand footwear. That's how the company started. It was two multi-brand footwear rooms. One was more brown shoes and boots and one was more athletic driven. Because you know, for me, as footwear is number one in my life, it's always been number one. But I'm not a sneaker guy. I'm a footwear guy. I can make a shoe in front of you. I know how to

Starting point is 00:45:49 make shoes. I spent a month in the Dominican Republic making my Sabago shoes on the line, knowing how to hand sew. And that was a very important time in my life is learning how to make footwear because I loved footwear so much I needed to understand how they were made. So brown shoes were as important to me as athletic footwear, and that's how we opened the store. And there were two different personalities you'd walk through the rooms. And one was more rustic wooden metal. And the other one was stone and frosted glass. And, lit up in a Tron-esque way. So I opened up this courtyard and people started hanging out in the store and in this

Starting point is 00:46:29 courtyard not coming in to shop for product, which I loved. Like-minded individuals would just talk about random shit and just chop it up in the back. And a lot of staff became really good friends with one another. The staff became like family. And then these people that would shop the store, they became close to the staff. and it became this community of people that was just incredible for the neighborhood. Over time, the people that would hang out in the store, in the community that hung out there, they wanted to represent the multi-brand retail store as a brand.

Starting point is 00:47:03 People were asking me to make product with the name of the store on it. Now, collaborative footwear, I was already doing that since 2007. So the footwear would have the name of the store. and that's one thing. But people wanted to wear apparel with the name of the store on it to represent the store. And what I realized was

Starting point is 00:47:26 people were having the same type of experiences that I was having in different shops around the area. And they were sick of that. They wanted to feel like they belonged to something where they were welcomed and wanted. And that became the DNA of the kit space and the purpose and the reason as to why I started making other products.

Starting point is 00:47:47 It's incredible to think about all of this richness that goes into product. And we've talked less about then storytelling. And you said at the beginning that it's two sides of the same coin. And I'm thinking about the production quality and interestingness of some of the videos, especially in the last couple of years, related to some of the incredible, whether it's Armani or something else, collaborations that Kith has done with other iconic brands, maybe talk a little bit about, you've told us so much about how you figured product out over time,

Starting point is 00:48:18 how have you figured out storytelling? Because again, you're doing the same thing over and over again that I'm noticing, which is like taking something people already know, introducing something radically new, fusing them, and then delivering that package in a way that is so fun to consume. And that's the storytelling piece. So maybe give us the same thoughts on how that part of your life came to develop. Okay, so I've never really had to talk about this, so I'm trying to put my thoughts together, but I love film, probably my first love.

Starting point is 00:48:51 When I was younger, I had a very good friend of mine who, coming out of a Yeshiva school in fourth grade, my parents couldn't afford to send me there anymore. So I went to my local public school in the middle of fourth grade, and the kids were kind of standoffish, and there was one kid who was the coolest kid in the group. there who took me in and started to make me feel welcomed and introduced me to the other kids and made me feel like I belonged. And this kid, his name was Joey, he became my brother. I would spend more time in his house than in my house. And he, at a very young age, I would say starting in sixth grade maybe, maybe fifth grade actually, like 11, 12 years old. He was the

Starting point is 00:49:41 first one that had a laser disc player. So his dad was well off and he had bought the full catalog of laser discs that were available because not every movie was... Everyone. Not every movie was available on laser disc, but he literally had a library of a couple hundred movies on laser disc. And on the weekends, we would spend the entire weekend in his room watching movies and he'd make me watch. Crazy movies. He was making me watch Deer Hunter and Amadeus. The range was insane.

Starting point is 00:50:19 We fell in love with film back then. And it became our obsession as kids. And throughout the years, I was always in the theater up until recently, up until COVID, I would say. I basically put my wife on, too. She didn't see any other movies. She probably saw like maybe 2% of the movies I've seen. So then it became putting her on in the same way and making her watch all these movies that I got to relive. And then going to the theater twice a week and watching films.

Starting point is 00:50:50 It was pretty incredible. So my passion for film was very important to me. And it became the part of my DNA in how I would love to see the brand be able to communicate through the medium of film. I would say the real start for this was the New York love story. And there were two chapters of the New York love story. And that was my first attempt at showcasing product through the setting of New York City, but also through this short film that would be like Billy Crystal feel. When I think about when Harry Met Sally, like through that kind of vibe,

Starting point is 00:51:32 that was the first concept I had for showcasing a fall collection in New York City. is this love story between these two people. And then we continued that and had this part two, which I didn't love as much. But that was my attempt, and it was good, not great. As time progressed,

Starting point is 00:51:52 one of my employees who started off as an intern, his name is Austin, became my right hand, and also, through my relationship with him, he fell in love with film as well. And this happened recently, I would say in the last few years.

Starting point is 00:52:06 and started to research how we would take this to the next level, because he's basically the head of content for me. And we started to take it a lot more seriously because I told him that I wanted this to be a major part of what we do, these films. So he did his part by doing some research and figuring out the talent that we needed to work with to bring these things to life, these mini films to life.

Starting point is 00:52:35 and we did that. And it started to become a huge part of our DNA in how we storytell. And it really checks off a lot of these boxes for me and Austin with how we feel people should experience the product or seeing the product through the most passionate way for us to feel accomplished. I think that that's what makes it feel organic.

Starting point is 00:53:05 is people understanding that when I feel accomplished, it's so much better of a place to be than for it to feel forceful in the way that I tell a story or in the way that I present product. So now with understanding that we could do that on a very high level, because the videos are insane now. They're incredible. And I'm so proud of them.

Starting point is 00:53:27 It was a struggle to get it to easy. But now that we know we could do that, when we create product in its inception of creating product, we are already understanding that we can tell a story on the highest level. So it expands the spectrum of the product I can work on and makes me feel a lot more comfortable working on some of the products that I do, especially Armani, for example. What have you learned that might be applicable to others?

Starting point is 00:53:58 Because I think it's amazing how many different domains, these set of ideas could be powerful. What have you learned about a great collaboration with Romani's another brand that people could buy in some weird way? It might be thought of as a competitor. I know, I'm sure you don't think about it that way, obviously. But it's in the same category. What have you learned about just running these collaborations and thinking all the way back

Starting point is 00:54:23 to that first lunch break you had effectively? Like, what are the ingredients of a great episodic collaboration or partnership? like the ones you've done, you've done more of them than just about anybody, probably. So I'm going to bring you back to the first BMW project that we worked on. The E30M3 is probably the most culturally relevant car in my market ever. It's so, so, so iconic. And in trying to explain what the car meant to BMW, BMW produced the M3 without the intention of it becoming commercialized.

Starting point is 00:54:59 It was a race car. I didn't know that. It was a race car. They had a three series that was on the road, but then they created this M version of it to be a race car. And the car won multiple awards. And the driver, Johnny Jakota, won multiple races. When I told the story about the E30 M3, which was a one-off car, the BMW in Germany rebuilt for me, alongside the M4, which I introduced to the world, M4 was introduced through us, when we were, we were. When we told the story, it was so important for us to tell a story about this Cinebar red M3, E30M3.

Starting point is 00:55:38 That color was so iconic. And what I wanted to do was to showcase the M4 is basically the newest version of the old M3. So I wanted to bridge the story for people to understand the DNA of where it came from. So we got Johnny Chakoto and his son to drive the E30M3. And that was Johnny Chacoto and his son to drive the M4. His son is also a race car driver. So I put both cars on the track to race each other in these two cars. And it was basically to showcase the E30M3 and the M4 and to explain and show people the visual and bridging the two together.

Starting point is 00:56:24 being able to do that on a high level. So you ask me a question about collaboration and how I work on some of these bigger moments with these bigger brands. When I have these type of ideas for a brand like BMW, it's refreshing for them, for someone to want to come in and tell that story through their point of view. And I think that me describing that to you right now is how brands feel across the board on the projects that I work on. Because my love for the product that I work on,

Starting point is 00:57:00 they can't doubt the passion that I have for it once we sit down and we figure out what the storytelling will be. It always comes from wanting to celebrate the brand I work with, not from wanting to put my version of it above their history and heritage on why that product is important to the world. Incredible. Yeah, so with every collaboration,

Starting point is 00:57:21 I feel the responsibility to need to educate people, on the why. Here's what happened through time. Is the why becomes a lot more of a burden because of how we've been able to storytell. So these bigger storytelling moments now have set the bar and now have to compete against what I have done either the last project or the last year working with the same brand.

Starting point is 00:57:48 So it's tough. I'm going to give you one example. The evolution of something like what I've done. done in chapter one with BMW to what we did chapter two. When we go and we start to work on chapter two, we sit down in a room and we're like, why are we doing this? Why is there chapter two? Is there a story that is worth telling through our lens? Some stories shouldn't be told through our lens. But there are stories and moments that people need to know about and wouldn't happen unless we apply it through our filter through our lens. For example, chapter two was

Starting point is 00:58:28 the 50 year anniversary. And as I was looking, I was trying to see the history of what BMW has done and moments that would definitely resonate with the consumer today and something that people can be curious about. And chapter two was the 50 year anniversary of the 1602, which was presented as a concept car as the pace car on a track during the Olympics in Munich. And the car was presented as the first electric car that ran 27 miles, which was the length of a marathon, as the pace car in the Olympics on the track. So it was 50 years since that story. And I thought that that was a forgotten story.

Starting point is 00:59:20 And as BMW is releasing new electric cars today, I was like, let people know where it came from. Let people know how long ago BMW was thinking about electric cars and how long BMW's been working on this. So now the 1602 released as a combustion engine, same body, just not as an electric car back then. It was just a concept car for that one moment. So we took a 1602. BMW rebuilt it for me with specs of two I3 batteries and converted a 1602, a vintage car,

Starting point is 00:59:57 and rebuilt it from scratch to make it an electric car. And then we told the story of that car, which is literally under me right now, as I'm sitting above it in this mezzanine, and next to it downstairs is also the I4M50 to show the past and present. That is basically the purpose of what I do, is to educate the consumer but to build a emotion through the DNA of the company, but also tell their story of their purpose of why. The why is so important. And we've become professionals at the why.

Starting point is 01:00:33 It seems like you're also this master collector of these raw ingredients. And travel is something that we haven't talked about that I'm also super passionate about. And something that stood out thinking ahead was Japan specifically. and the first time that you ever went there and how it changed you and what happened. Because another lesson I'd love people to take away is collect these raw ingredients. Go have unique experiences of the world, see what resonates and give them back. And it seems like you've done that with travel quite a bit.

Starting point is 01:01:06 You can zoom in anywhere, but Japan's the one that piqued my interest, but you pick. Yeah, Japan changed my life completely. but also my relationship with Junia, who's the director of my business in Japan, that relationship changed the course of my life completely. The way I think about product, if you haven't been to Tokyo, it's the first place you need to go if you care about product style culture, just about anything. I got there and I was like, wow, I can't believe I lived my whole life up until this point

Starting point is 01:01:39 without knowing that this exists because it's so different. It's not like I didn't know Japan existed. It's that I didn't know that culture existed. It's a culture that cared about product on the same level that I did. And I got to meet with a lot of people who viewed the process the same way I did and cared about the process the same way I did and care about the details the same way I do. And everything is so purposeful. There's nothing that happens there without a great.

Starting point is 01:02:09 reason for it to happen. So it changed my life completely. And what has happened over time and actually is happening currently, like right now, in the last couple years of my life, is my European travel, traveling to Italy and across Europe, whether it's to Greece, Italy, London, Germany. I go to Germany, a lot for BMW and Adidas, Amsterdam. The Italian portion of the trips that I have taken has influenced me now. I would say 50-50 with Japan. Wow. My aesthetic and my style, which will never change but will continuously evolve, it now is 50-50,

Starting point is 01:02:50 this tailored suiting out of Italy and the world that comes with that, not only suiting, has taken up, I would say, 50% of what I want in my wardrobe. And for Russia Shana last night, like, I wore a suit to my sister's house and they're like, wow, we've been waiting for this version of you. And I just came back from London and Milan, where I celebrated the release of the Armani collection. And working with Giorgio and the team and their team has inspired me to want to dress that way. And I think that Japan had the same exact influence on me and still does.

Starting point is 01:03:32 And I think now it's split 50-50 between Japanese influence and Italian influence. You said in Japan, it's that nothing happens without a lot of care. thought and intentionality, and maybe that's like the unique thing. What would be the corollary thing for Italy? Quality, craftsmanship? Craftsmanship and quality, yeah. Just the best, you have the greatest suit makers in the world all in one city, especially with Giorgio, I got to work with the best suitmaker in the world. That's the greatest suitmaker in the history of mankind. I'm working with the greatest suitmaker of all time. That's like you put on a Giorgio suit and there's nowhere. to go from there. There's absolutely nowhere to go from there. It's not even possible to go up from

Starting point is 01:04:18 there. So getting to work with the best, that's also for me what my goals are in life is to work with the best across categories. So I really think BMW makes the greatest car in the world. And I got to work with them side by side and there'll be a third chapter of that happening this year. And I got to work across different categories and across some of the greatest icons for the brand. That's been an incredible experience. And then we work with the latest brand. A brand like Armani, similarly, it's the greatest fabrics and the greatest construction in the world.

Starting point is 01:04:55 And we've worked with Montclair, greatest outerwear brand probably in the world, I would say. We've worked with Nike with the greatest basketball player of all time, got to design the LeBron 15 with that team, with the Nike team, our version of that, which was incredible that he wore in the All-Star game and won MVP with an iconic picture of him dunking the ball in our shoe. It's a great moment for us. What a feeling. I got to work with the greatest tennis player in the world, Roger Federer in helping him put out his first shoe, Roger won with On, working on a few things right now, which is also on that level of

Starting point is 01:05:32 the greatest in the world. You work on the Olympics, Team USA, and what we were able to do with the Olympics, Team USA basketball, have that capsule. We shot Kevin Durant. And it's been honestly an unbelievable journey to think about the brand being associated with some of the greatest brands in the world and us striving to be the greatest brand for what we do specifically. So like there is the collaborative arm of what we do, which will always be a huge part of

Starting point is 01:06:00 the DNA because that's where it started for me. And then there's us as a standalone brand that has been able to evolve tremendously throughout the years. One of the things that we haven't talked about in an hour of talking is the business itself. And one of the things that I've learned actually from Sean Feeney, our mutual friend, is when you approach an old business, restaurants in his case, apparel and many other things in your case that have been around a long time, if you're creative about how the business unfolds, it actually unlocks more creativity. So the way he structured his leases, for example, with the landlords, created more flexibility for the artist, Missy, in his case,

Starting point is 01:06:37 to do exactly her creative genius however she wanted. What have you learned about as the business has evolved? You're selling these things. It's a very big business. About structuring the business and operating in the business in a way that allows you to do more and more of this thing that you love. Doing more and more of the things that I love has allowed me to do more and more of the things that I love. That's the best way I could put it because the business portion of what

Starting point is 01:07:07 we do is done so that it can continue to be a universe for me that I can continue to feed with products that I love and projects that I love. Sustaining the business has been tough, let alone growing it, but we have an incredible team. And I think that that's the most important part of the growth and the company at the moment, not even at the moment, at any moment, has been the help and the execution of what I consider to be the greatest team in the game. And I think that when you speak about the business, it takes up so much less of my brain power, not in the sense of how we execute, because I'm also very involved in the merchandising and the buying and the planning and where we're.

Starting point is 01:07:56 we allocate dollars and the leases and how we grow. Of course. But any free time that I have, I'm not thinking about that. That's when I'm forced to think about that. And I sit down and we have decisions to make. That's when critical thinking is applied in thinking about how we grow and what we think about the business. But my goal is to be in a position where I can continuously think creatively as to how we evolve the brand and become the best version of ourselves, it's never been thinking about how we compete. It's never been about what other brands do. It's never been about that, which is why we've been able to be so successful in creating something so unique. Because the most unique part about our business, I don't like using

Starting point is 01:08:47 that word, about our brand, I would say, because it's never done for business purposes. Nothing is done for business purposes in the sense of what we create. We don't create for the sake of business. We create for the sake of what people will love. And the most unique part about that is the ability to work with cereal companies on an $8 cereal box or a $7.5 ice cream and then sell a car for $130 grand and sell 120 of them in a matter of 11 minutes. the ability to think about both and give the same consideration to both, I think makes us a unicorn.

Starting point is 01:09:29 Because when I think about Kith treats and its impact on the brand, it's as big of an impact as Georgie Armani has on the brand. and thinking about both ends of the spectrum, the 35 to 55-year-old man that will buy a Georgia Armani suit from us for $6,000. And then thinking about the younger consumer who's coming in and buying a t-shirt from treats and an ice cream when they come into the store, those people are just as important to me. Both of them are just as important. So I think the business side is, I wouldn't even call it business.

Starting point is 01:10:16 I would just say it's the intent on making sure that both ends of the spectrum are catered to with the same intent of making sure that they feel welcomed, that they feel special, and that they feel like there's a lot of creativity and purpose behind all of the product that we create. In the middle of that is everything else. That's where sport and music and everything else fits. Because when you think about what I'm doing with the Nix and that portion of it, and that's why maybe it's not even on a spectrum, maybe it's dimensional, maybe it's just different categories and buckets of what we do because the magic of the brand is the ability to have a creative process and intent across all the categories. It's really incredible.

Starting point is 01:11:08 And it makes me wonder how difficult it has been to keep your intention so pure. Has there ever been a point in history where you've had a devil on your shoulder? I feel like everyone has angels and devils. What devil, if any, have you had to fight to keep the thrust of this story? The treats to the Armani is just so resonant with me and the equal amount of care. What devil has there been in the history, if any? even if there was, which I don't think there was a moment, it was part of the learning curve. I have never regretted any decision that I've ever made since I started the company, not even one.

Starting point is 01:11:47 And I think that also speaks to when people wonder how it's possible to manage and be the CEO and creative director of a company this big, it's because the decisions that need to be made, the split second decisions. and there's so many decisions to make every day, it's like when you have a really great free throw shooter. It becomes second nature. It's almost like thoughtless when you step up to a free throw line and you shoot those because it's routine. Through time, making decisions becomes a sport.

Starting point is 01:12:20 That's the way I look at it. And my life revolves around that sport. So it's like getting enough sleep, eating healthy, working out, not going out. I don't have any vices, which is crazy. I don't go out late. I don't drink. I don't smoke.

Starting point is 01:12:36 Some people may consider that a really boring life, but if I need to be a great decision maker and make decisions that I won't regret, I need to be on my A game. And I've learned and have become very experienced in guiding this ship. If you want to be a great business person and a great creative, it comes with a lot of sacrifice. So, yeah, I'm just trying to think. of people that listen to this pod, there are going to be some industry people that listen to it

Starting point is 01:13:07 that can relate. And then there'll be people that like want to understand how. And just like we try to showcase the process of anything we do, it's important for people that are passionate, that want to get into this world to understand that it doesn't happen easily. You need to go through decades of experience to be able to then make all the right decisions that can help you evolve in anything. It's such an important part of it. I also don't think that I would be thinking in this way a few years ago. I've had some moments where I've had to like really reflect because as I think about the next three to five to ten years, you also need to think about whether or not you're capable. What's one of those moments? Every day I have that moment. I think it's every day.

Starting point is 01:13:55 When I think about the future, and I always think about the future, when I look at my daughter, I think about the future. I'm always concerned about the future. I actually am never able to fully enjoy the moment because I'm always thinking in another moment. It's kind of fucked up. That's a double-edged sword. It is, but every day I am thinking about, am I going to be able to be what I am today three to five years from now and have the same impact because I can't continuously do what I'm doing today. It's going to have to get bigger and bigger in the sense. of evolving, the storytelling needs to get better, the product needs to get better. Otherwise, I don't want to do it. I don't know what it's like to remain the same or want a steady

Starting point is 01:14:40 business. It's not what I want. It's not what I sign for. So I'm just trying to think of how much farther I can take it. So I'm constantly thinking about that. But that's what's led to this. I'd love to close with three areas of passion, because this conversation has been about passion holistically. Those are a brand you recognized, M.A. Leondor, an iconic old brand that you are in charge of, the Nix as the creative director, and architecture, which you mentioned earlier and is something that I hadn't seen. I mean, I know the stores themselves are like an ode to incredible spaces, but it seems like a passion of yours that I'd love to learn more about. How do you recognize an up-and-coming brand that has so much potential like M.A. Leondor? What do you see in it? How do you

Starting point is 01:15:26 process it. You're not the person. You're not the creative director of it. Someone else is that you then are inspired by or admire and then we'll get to work with. So what is it there that you saw or what do you see in other people or brands that inspire you? Well, first of all, Emelian Dorr is similar to my baby and the amount of work that I put into what I do. Teddy will have his own stories, some similar to mine, some of his own. that make that brand what it is. And I have a lot of respect for Teddy. Maybe it's something in the water in Queens that breeds these creatives.

Starting point is 01:16:05 But he's done an incredible job. It's a brand that has definitely impacted the culture in a very big way, in the way that people view product. The visuals have been top-notch. He's a visionary. He has great vision and great aesthetic. And he's one of my closest friends. and I love them. How do you approach something like the Knicks?

Starting point is 01:16:31 You and I grew up in the exact same era of the Nix, the nostalgia around them for me is extreme. I have a son now who's now involved as a Nix fan, and it's one of life's greatest and simplest pleasures, the NBA in general and the NICs specifically for me and for my family. How do you begin? How do you approach something like that with so much history where it's not a one-off thing,

Starting point is 01:16:53 it is a key relationship for the Knicks, for you, I'm sure you must be a kid in a candy shop. Just say a little bit about the experience so far. That would be a whole other pod. Fair enough. But for me to describe how I feel about the Knicks and how much I love the team and what it means to the city. But basically, I feel like the Knicks are the most important team in New York, personally, the most important sports team in New York. When the Knicks are good, there's nothing like it.

Starting point is 01:17:25 New York City is a different place, unlike the rest of any team in any city, in my opinion. And it's not because I'm a Knicks fan, it's because I've witnessed it and I've lived it. And I want to be a part of it in any way I can. And I think for some of these creative moments that I've had with the Knicks in the ability to design their city edition uniforms, and the ability also to release these collections within the garden. Kith Knight at the garden has become a big thing. The collections have gotten bigger and bigger. And finally, people are able to wear the team and the brand in a very elevated way

Starting point is 01:18:04 because we apply some of our best garments to the collection and treat it really like a brand and not like a team. And I think that that's been a difference in that vision for the Nix because I do think the NICs are a team and then the NICs are our brand. And when you look at the brand, I think it resembles the city and the heart of the city more than many other brands do. Kith as a New York brand and the Knicks really go hand in hand, and people love to see when those two come together. It's been a lot of fun. It's been very successful.

Starting point is 01:18:38 And the relationships that I've gotten to build with the players and the staff has been great. And unlike a lot of fans who think about... it one-dimensionally, I think of the Knicks as a conglomerate. It's more than just a team to me. I think that Jim Dolan has done a very good job putting people in place to bring that culture back to the city and put people in place to have put together an incredible team and also an incredible atmosphere in MSG and how people feel when they come and they experience the games. Because I've gone to games across the country, there really is nothing like being in MSG.

Starting point is 01:19:20 There's nothing like it. It really is a unicorn type of experience. An iconic Jalen Brunson game or something right now is a singular sports feeling. It's so cool that you get to be such a part of it. So cool. One thing I didn't ask about that I should before we close is this notion of a quality bar

Starting point is 01:19:38 in everything that you produce in the brand. You've got a big team. Obviously, like you have a standard. And we've talked lots about where that standard came from. how do you uphold a standard like that in a big team? What is the key to setting and maintaining a suitably high and rising quality bar? Which sounds like a good idea and simple enough, but I'm sure is really hard to do over and over again. Here's the biggest part of that.

Starting point is 01:20:05 It's people that need to check their ego at the door and understand that if the work is not up to par, they need to go back to the drawing board until it is. and I think that with the team that I surround myself with and that I have, none of us have the egos and all of us understand that the brand is bigger than all of us when it comes to the work that we do. So right now, even though the brand and myself are synonymous, the decisions that I make are on behalf of the brand, not on behalf of myself. But I've been spending so much time on the brand that that now comes second nature.

Starting point is 01:20:40 I'm able to make those decisions easily because now what's right for the brand is right for myself. That's been the biggest key is also the dynamic between the teammates on the staff. They all have to be like-minded in what we're trying to do in the goal. And everybody needs to understand what it is that we're trying to do. We're trying to be the best at what we do. Also, consistency is super key. having the right people in the right roles, the consistency, I think, is what makes the biggest difference, because when you look at the brand, the evolution has been easy to see and easy

Starting point is 01:21:20 to transition for the consumer when they see that the vision has been consistent. So it's like walking people through a journey throughout the years, they've seen the growth through consistent eyes, which I think has been super critical. to the brand. Is there any closing prompt or challenge that you would give to an audience that is full of incredibly ambitious and curious people, often already leading businesses or investing in businesses, but also full of people that maybe haven't figured out their thing yet? Is there any prompt that you would give them or closing thought for that kind of person? I've only done one kind of job my whole life. I've always been in this category of business and this world.

Starting point is 01:22:07 of product and retail. So it's really hard for me to apply that to anything but this category of business. But I will say that what has helped me has been finding my passion very early on in my life. And I think they gave me a leg up on starting really early and then also starting from the bottom of a company to then learn all of the different positions and inner workings on how a company works and what makes the engine run from all facets, because before I became a creative, I really got to understand the business well. And I got to understand what people want and why they want it. So like I mentioned before, but I think for people that are trying to figure out

Starting point is 01:22:53 their way, it's important not to skip the alphabet. You can't get from A to Z without the alphabet. And my biggest piece of advice would be to start at the bottom and work your way up. When I do these interviews, I ask everyone the same traditional closing question. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? Honestly, I'd have to say it's my wife understanding and loving me for the kind of person that I am in this world that I live in because I spend so much time on what I do and I'm so invested in what I do that understanding how my time is split up and how I prioritize my time to want to be successful in the brand and the business,

Starting point is 01:23:36 but also wanting to be the best husband and father, I think my wife has always been kind to me and understanding me in that way. Beautiful place to close. Ronnie, this was fantastic, so interesting, so different. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Starting point is 01:23:52 Thanks for having me. If you enjoy this episode, check out join colossus.com. There you'll find every episode of this podcast, complete with transcripts, show notes, and resources to keep learning. You can also sign up for our newsletter, Colossus Weekly, where we condense episodes to the big ideas, quotations, and more, as well as share the best content we find on the internet every week.

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