Investigate Earth Conspiracy Podcast - Inhumane Animal Testing & Fauci’s Gain-of-Function | Justin Goodman, White Coat Waste

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

In this episode, we talk with Justin Goodman, Vice President of White Coat Waste who was recently in front of congress, to expose the dark side of inhumane animal testing funded by taxpayer dollars. We dive deep into how these unethical practices are connected to massive public funding, scrutinize the role of controversial gain-of-function research, and discuss how figures like Fauci have become central to this debate. Join us as we unpack the hidden truths behind the funding and ethics of animal testing, and explore White Coat Waste's relentless pursuit of transparency in the scientific community.Visit or donate to White Coat Waste Project Here

A new place, a new home for a while, let me feel alive. Nothing to hold me back. Take my time. Just enjoy the bride. A no man passing by. Life is good best I've ever felt. Hello and welcome to Investigator at the podcast. I'm your host chat alongside my beautiful wife, Sherry.

On tonight's episode, we are joined by Justin Goodman, the senior vice president for the White Coat Waste Project, which is a 501 C3. nonprofit organization and bipartisan government watchdog founded in 2013 by Anthony Bellotti. The organization is dedicated to exposing and eliminating what it identifies as wasteful government spending on animal experimentation, which it estimates to be around $20 billion annually. WCW's mission is to unite liberty lovers and animal lovers in the effort to defund taxpayer-funded animal testing. Under Belotti's leadership, WCW has achieved significant milestones, including exposing U.S. funding for the Wuhan lab. WCW was the first organization to reveal that U.S. tax dollars were funding research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. And in USDA's Kitten Slaughterhouse,

the organization successfully campaigned to close the U.S. government's largest cat laboratory operated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And they also halted the FDA's nicotine test on monkeys. WCW's efforts led to the termination of the Food and Drug Administration's nicotine addiction experiments on baby monkeys and prompted the establishment of the FDA's first animal welfare council. WCW employs a three-step strategy to accomplish its goals. First, they find the waste conducting investigative research, recruiting whistleblowers, submitting Freedom of Information Act or FOIA, analyzing scientific literature, and examining government spending data. They also exposed the waste, publicizing finance through media outlets

and running advertising campaigns to raise public awareness, and they defund the waste, mobilizing a grassroots network of supporters and collaborators with bipartisan lawmakers to cut funding for identified programs. Guys, welcome to the show. It is February the 27th, 2025. This is an episode we have been waiting on for quite some time. Obviously, Sherry has been very excited about this episode

because Justin, along with White Coat Waste Project, when we were even doing the monkey podcast episodes, we basically came across all of these investigations through white coat waste where it exposed Alpha Genesis and the monkey program in South Carolina when all the monkeys escaped the laboratory there. And then come to find out that white coat waste was actually the first ones. Yes. To expose Dr. Falci and NIH with their funding to the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

And guys, the guy we have on, the guy we have on tonight, Justin Goodman, he went to the White House to tell the White House at the time before the pandemic ever happened. Here's what's going on, guys. Your boy over here, Dr. Falci is, you know, he's fun in Wuhan. So I think it's an incredible honor to have Justin on. Him and his organization fights so hard for animal welfare, but not just animal welfare. It's not just about animals. it's about how our taxpayer dollars are being used. And he has recently been in front of the House Select Subcommittee,

where he has been exposing what they're actually using some of this money that USAID is finding in just crazy ways that you would never believe. And remember, that money is your money. Your dollars that you work so hard for is being spent on animal cruelty and just awful things happening to these poor puppies and monkeys and rats. And, you know, it's just we got to end it. and bats. They utilize bats too.

Even after the fact that we know that likely the coronavirus came from gain of function research off of bats from China. And then what Justin talks about how they have actually put bats back into the United States for experimentation after the fact of COVID is insane. We do encourage all of you to go and follow white coat ways to go donate to them if you can. They are the ones that are out there exposing where our taxpayer dollars are being utilized, especially an inhumane testing of animals, and most of the time this animal testing has zero

benefit to the American people. So without further ado, we welcome Justin Goodman. Enjoy the interview. Hello, everybody. Today we have an incredibly important conversation lined up with someone who has been at the forefront of exposing government waste, animal abuse, and the dangerous experiments. Your tax dollars are funding behind closed doors. We're going to be talking with Justin Goodman.

Senior Vice President of White Coat Waste is here with. us to break down what's really happening inside these government-funded labs, how innocent animals are suffering and cruel, unnecessary experiments, and why the agencies involved don't want you to find out. We'll also dive into how white coat waste is blowing the whistle on reckless spending dangerous research and the deep ties between taxpayer-funded animal testing and global health crisis. Justin, welcome to the show. Let's start with this.

Most Americans have no idea that their tax dollars are being used for these experiments, but tell me a little background about white coat waste, how you got into it, and also the extent of the problem that we are facing in America with this. I was once one of those people who had no idea the extent to which the federal government was propping up the animal testing industry. And it turns out that while what comes across a lot of our social media feeds is talking about product testing and cosmetics testing on animals, the overwhelming majority of animal testing, in the United States is funded by our tax dollars through the U.S. government. About two-thirds of all animal testing is being funded by taxpayers through federal agencies like the NIH, the Department of Defense, and others. And yeah, there was a time about 20 years ago when I didn't know that either.

And I was vegan and supportive of animal rights issues, but I was not an activist. I was not an advocate of any kind. And I got to grad school at the University of Connecticut in 2004 and discovered that there was a monkey lab on campus, which seemed outrageous to me that in the 21st century, this was still happening. And I started, and I'd never done an investigation or anything like that, but I was so incensed about it that I started using government learning how to use government databases to investigate federal spending and the USDA's database to look at, animal welfare violations and reports about how many animals were in laboratories. And it turns out that this laboratory on the University of Connecticut campus, it was the only monkey lab there, this one laboratory, had gotten $1.7 million from the National Institutes of Health.

And they were using that money to buy monkeys, drill holes in their heads, use acid to destroy the part of their brain that controlled eye movements, and then screw restraint devices into their skulls. And then they took these brain damage monkeys and immobilized them in these horrific restraint devices and just forced them to watch TV screens for hours at a time. And we obtained records, my little student group that I was leading, obtained records through the Freedom Information Act showing that some of these monkeys were getting horrible infections in the implants in their skulls.

There was one situation where a monkey was yanked so hard by his neck because they used like a collar and a pole to move them out of the cage into the restraint device. He was yanked so hard as eyes bled. And there was all this evidence of this horrible abuse in black and white in these documents. And the federal government had not cited them for any violations of the law.

It seemed like a lot of these are egregious problems were being sweated. done to the rug by the university. So we started exposing these experiments. I started doing interviews with the press and sharing these FOIA documents with reporters. And fast forward a couple years, the government cited the lab for violations of the law, find them, and then require them to return some tax funding to the NIH because they had violated the law while they were torturing these animals of our tax dollars. And then the best part of this all was is that the laboratory got shut down.

And this was kind of my introduction to activism and advocacy to get animals out of laboratories. And it was great success. And I was in graduate school wondering, you know, I was in a PhD program that I assumed I would finish. But I learned through this experience that my heart was really in activism and not academia. So I left, I got my master's, I left that program and basically full time since then, I've been working to get animals out of labs. Wow. It kind of reminds me of the story of just what happened in Beaufort, South Carolina, when all the monkeys got escaped from that lab. I think there was like 60 monkeys or something.

And we live fairly close to that area. So I was, I wasn't kidding, but I was. I was like, my porch light is on. There's bananas on my porch. come to my house monkeys because I cannot stand what's going on and this testing that these awful people are doing. And what's really sad to me is not many people realize it or if they do realize it, they don't really care.

And that's why I so much want to expose like the actual hardship these animals are going through. So I really, really appreciate your work and support your work and anything you're doing. Yeah. And for sure. And what to Sherry's point, she's referring to the Alpha Genesis primate research. And I know that you guys actually did quite a bit of research in that facility, too. Am I correct, Justin?

Yeah. So that story kind of went viral. I think it was late November when over 40 monkeys escaped from a breeder and laboratory in Beaufort, South Carolina, that receives tens of millions of tax dollars every year to import and breed monkeys and experiment on them for the federal government. But the National Institutes of Health mainly, not only do they do that at one facility they have in that area, they also have a multi-million dollar contract to manage an island off the coast of Beaufort called Monkey Island, that people call Monkey Island. It's called Morgan Island.

That confines over 3,000 monkeys. And the purpose, we work with Congresswoman Nancy Mace, who's a great advocate and ally on these efforts to end animal testing. and she's from there, and she and I think a lot of other people down there were under the impression that this was some kind of sanctuary of this island for monkeys. But it turns out that it's actually a facility that was funded by Dr. Fauci and now by his successor at his NIH division. And a few hundred of the monkeys are plucked off this island every year and sent to government-funded laboratories across the country where they're infected with diseases and have holes drilled into them and are ultimately killed. So the government really bends over backwards to keep this stuff a secret because they know when the word gets out. People are horrified about not only what's happening to the animals, but how their money is being spent. And that's why we're constantly in court with the federal government to obtain records about how our tax dollars are being spent in laboratories, not only here in the U.S., but billions of our tax dollars are also being sent to laboratories in China, Russia, and hundreds of laboratories.

in foreign countries as well. And when people find out about this, they want answers, they want accountability, they want the government, they want Congress to do something about it. And we're making great progress. But yeah, I mean, a big barrier to just to get, letting people know how their money is being spent as that the government is really working overtime to make sure that the stuff is kept a secret. Do you think Doge is helping with this process also, like this uncovering of all this

tax dollars that we're spending that no one knew about it, especially, you know, I was watching your testimony at the oversight committee when they were talking about the transgender rats and how many, how much money was just spent on that. And I know that you were talking about since like the 19, I think late 1980s, probably over a trillion dollars of tax money has been spent on funding like this. So how much do we spend, do you think, a year? I think the floor, and again, the government doesn't report this stuff very well. So we have to make estimates based on the information that is available. I think the floor for annual government spending on animal testing by the Department of Defense, the NIH, the FDA, and all these other agencies, it's probably $20 billion. And again, the government is the single largest funder of animal testing.

They're keeping this industry alive. If you cut that funding for the animal testing, these companies that are building cages and breeding animals and inventing and creating the torture devices, they're going to go out of business because so much of this experimentation is wasteful. In addition to being cruel, is wasteful and unnecessary. I mean, the NIH alone, which is the single largest funder of animal testing in the world, the NIH is constantly lamenting the fact that animal testing is so ineffective at predicting outcome. outcomes in humans. Over 90% of drugs that pass animal tests fail in people because they either don't work, they're ineffective, or they're toxic and dangerous and actually hurt and kill people. So just as a scientific matter, animal experimentation is completely wasteful and fraudulent. In addition to obviously ethical issues related to, you know, caging and torturing these

animals and taking healthy animals and making them sick and killing them. So we're very enthusiastic and, you know, cautiously optimistic about Doge and what they're doing. You know, Elon Musk, after my hearing recently in the House Oversight Committee with Congresswoman Nace and others, he tweeted that, you know, what we exposed was terrible. And we have a lot of supporters in the new administration that both are in their jobs now, but also are likely to get positions. RFK Jr. has been a supporter of ours. the nominee for the head of the NIH, Dr. J. Badacharya, and the nominee for the head of the FDA, Dr. Marty McCarrey,

who are both having their confirmation hearings in the coming week. They are both supporters of white coat waste in our efforts to cut government animal testing. So we're excited. I've never, you know, I've been doing this for over two decades, and I've never been as excited about an administration coming in and shaking things up and cutting waste. And, you know, a lot of these people are doing it for the right reasons, too. you know, Dr. McCarrey, Dr. Bottachari, R.F.K. Jr., these are people who've spoken out about not only the waste of animal testing, but the cruelty and horrific nature of it.

Yeah. And there's a lot of other people who ended up in the government. It may not be directly related, you know, have direct authority over these issues, but like Tulsi Gabbard, Mike Walts, all the head of the EPA, former Congressman Lee Zeldin, we actually gave him awards and worked with him to end dog testing at the department. He's veteran. and we worked with him to end dog testing at the Department of Veterans Affairs when he was in Congress. So there's a lot of legit animal lovers who now have gotten positions in this administration are helping run this country

and can do a lot to get animals out of taxpayer-funded labs. Yeah. And Justinia, one of our friends, Dr. Peter McCulley's been on the show quite a few times and obviously he kind of blew up during the pandemic and we covered the pandemic extensively on this show but where we're talking about the NIH gain of function, the Wuhan Institute of Virology,

EcoHealth Alliance, all of this stuff. How do you, like what is your stance or I guess just outside view on the gain of function aspect of animal testing? And are more animals potentially more dangerous in a gain of function type deal, like say monkeys? Because obviously monkeys are closer to us than bats are,

which is what they were experimented with in Wuhan. Is that something you've studied or looked up on a lot with the gain of function aspect of it? Yeah. So actually in early 2020, WICO waste project was the first to expose Dr. Fauci's funding for gain of function at the Wuhan Laboratory. No one had known about the link between taxpayer funding in this lab before then, and we were doing some investigations on funding for U.S. funding for labs in China and actually brought us to the Trump administration early 2020 before a pandemic was even declared. This was in January 2020. I met with the White House to discuss the fact that we were funding the Wuhan Lab and other labs in China.

And then in April 2020, we finally exposed, and this is when this went viral, April 12th, 2020, we exposed the Fauci and the NIH's funding for the Wuhan Lab. And just a couple days later, Trump went on TV and said this is a tremendous waste and we're going to cut it. And to his credit, they did cut the funding for this lab. And I want to be clear, you know, because I think it's important for people to understand the experiments, the gain of function experiments that caused the pandemic were animal experiments. To your point, not only were they going into the caves over 1,000 miles away from Wuhan and collecting bats and coronaviruses way outside of Wuhan, you know, these weren't animals

or viruses that were circulating in the city. taxpayer-funded researchers at the Wuhan Institute went and got those bats and got those viruses at 1,000 miles away, brought them back to the Wuhan Institute of Virology in the center of this major metropolitan area, and then supercharged those viruses in experiments with humanized mice to make those viruses more contagious and more deadly to humans intentionally. So this was like the worst case scenario of taxpayer-funded animal experimentation that anyone could possibly imagine. We talk about the cruelty of it and the wastefulness of it and a lack of oversight of foreign labs is something we've been working on for a long time. And then here what happens. And even, you know, Joe Biden's administration believed this too. These animal experimenters in Wuhan using our tax dollars created a super virus that got out and has now killed over 20 million people. People in close trillions of dollars of economic damage to the United States of America.

And we're still trying to hold people accountable for it. So, yeah, animal experimentation, in particular you gain of function and particularly doing it in, you know, authoritarian nations around the world, is a recipe for disaster. And I know Dr. McCullough has talked about this before. We exposed early last year how the USDA is currently funding a collaboration with. with Wuhan-linked animal experimenters for gain to function with bird flu viruses. These people haven't learned their lesson because there's these mad scientists who there's a lot to gain. Unfortunately, there's a lot to lose for all of, we all have a lot to lose. Animals have a lot to lose. The planet has a lot to lose.

But there's also people who have the animal experimenters, the people who the infrastructure around animal experimentation, the NIH-funded colleges and universities, these foreign laboratories, pharmaceutical companies. There's a lot of people who have the gain from another Franken virus being created and being unleashed, either intentionally or not. So we've been working since early 2020, not only to defund the Wuhan lab, but to defund EcoHealth Alliance, the nonprofit that was funneling tax dollars there, to defund foreign laboratories, especially in adversarial nations like China and Russia. and then also to defund gain a function experimentation because there is absolutely no civilian application for this. It is essentially bio-weapons research that we're funding. And it's gone wrong

once and it's only a matter of time before it happens again. Unfortunately, yesterday, Senator Roger Marshall from Kansas, who we've worked with for years on this issue, reintroduced his legislation to defund gain of function research. And we know there's been. and reports also that the Trump administration is preparing an executive order on it. So things seem to be moving on all fronts in the right direction. You know, we'll see when the rubber hits the road, what actually can get through Congress and what the administration follows through on. But all the signs are positive right now.

And Justin, I wasn't aware, but I thought that gang of function just was happening in China. But during your testimony, I found out that we actually have some of these bats in Colorado State University? Yeah. So we're trying to import this problem. So number one, there's gain of function happening in the United States. The NIH just a couple of years ago after the pandemic broke out was funding gain of function experiments with monkeypox.

They were also Boston University was doing gain of function with coronaviruses after COVID broke out different strains of coronaviruses. They were also taking less dangerous version of COVID and making them more dangerous. So this has been happening here, and a lot of it happens under the radar because there's not a lot of transparency and accountability, and you can secretly do a lot of this stuff. Unfortunately, you know, there's groups like ours that are trying to dig up what's happening and stop these problems before they begin. But one insane thing that's happening right now that Fauci set into motion in 2021 is that some of the Wuhan Labs collaborators at Colorado State University and EcoHealth Alliance, the nonprofit that funded the Wuhan Lab and lots of other dangerous virus hunting and animal experimentation around the world, EcoHealth and Colorado State University got funding from Fauci's division of NIH to establish. a new bat lab here on U.S. soil at Colorado State University. They've gotten over $15 million of federal and state money to build a new bat laboratory.

And the plan for this lab, and we have all of the documents and plans that we've gotten through the Freedom Information Act, the plan for this laboratory is to import hundreds of Asian bats, many different species of Asian bats from Bangladesh to Colorado State University, and then do infect them with all kinds of viruses, including viruses that are incurable, things like the NEPA virus, the loss of virus, Ebola, COVID, MERS, and just do experimental infection experiments on them. This is currently being funded by the NIH. It actually just got renewed. The funding was renewed a couple months ago.

Fortunately, EcoHealth Alliance, their role in all of this was to, they were in charge of importing the bats. Fortunately, they were completely cut off and banned from federal funding for the next five years as a result of what happened in Wuhan. So they've been cut out of the picture. Colorado State is currently working to find a new partner to handle that part of the project to import the bats to Colorado State. But the building is, the construction is well underway. And now it's a matter of getting those bats from Asia. We're hoping to stop that before it starts. We've been working with members of Congress on legislation to cut the funding for these grants and restrict what they can do there. But yeah, this is as much of a problem here at home as it is abroad.

What makes it worse in foreign countries is that there's less oversight. We're suing the NIH right now over an illegal loophole that they wrote into the rules for foreign labs saying, you know, the rules that follow – the rules that govern animal experimentation labs in the United States. don't apply to foreign labs. They give them the complete free pass. They'll send them more money and then they say, you don't have to follow the rules for biosafety, for animal welfare, for inspections. They completely exempt them.

So we've been suing them since January of 2022. This is the third year of this lawsuit now to overturn that loophole. So there is some accountability in these foreign labs. But, yeah, the situation is dire, whether you look at the U.S. or you look at what we're funding overseas. there is a lot of cruel, stupid, and outright dangerous animal experimentation that not only are we being forced to fund, but in some cases we have no ideas even going on. Yeah, and I want to talk to you in just a moment about just kind of the inhumane nature of a lot of these experiments. And in particular, I want to talk to you about some beagles and just a little bit.

But I do want to ask you this. So oftentimes, especially even before COVID broke out, obviously you had a vent 201 where it was the pandemic simulation, Gates and Melinda Gates Foundation, along with John Hopkins University did this. There were other experiments similar to that. That obviously raised a lot of people's eyebrows and they were like, were they preparing for this or prepping for this? Then you started thinking about, as we talked about Peter Dazek, but even Dr. Ralph Barrick, I think he was Chapel Hill, which I guess had potentially this coronavirus before it went to China, if I'm not mistaken. But oftentimes, when you start hearing NIH and, you know, EcoHealth Alliance and all of that, you know, and all of

this, there's a name that comes up often as well, and that's DARPA. But, you know, DARPA is a military, I guess you can say unit that experiment and do a lot of things that are most of the time classified. You know, is some of this stuff maybe geared more towards a bio weapon versus an experimental, you know, whatever it is for vaccines or otherwise? I mean, and how dangerous is that do you think? I know we've touched on that a little bit, but why do we keep seeing DARPA? up on a constant basis.

And maybe is this how they got away with some of this stuff for so long is because maybe a lot of this was classified? Yeah, I mean, first of all, yeah, you can look at what happened in Wuhan and obviously the blueprint, the blueprint for the virus that caused the pandemic, you know, the back coronavirus with the spike protein. This was a proposal submitted by the Wuhan Lab and Peter Dashick and EcoHealth and Ralph Barrett to DARPA, years before there was a pandemic. So people were thinking about creating this virus and planning to and creating the blueprint

for this virus years before. DARPA, at least as far as we know now, it did not fund that proposal. And the belief is that the Wuhan Lab and Peter Dashik and EcoHealth went ahead with that research anyway in Wuhan with NIH money. And USAID money, of course, we know, you know, we have the receipts that. USAID was also funding the exact same experiments at the same time in the Wuhan lab. So the people who are doing the gain of function experiments in Wuhan that likely caused COVID were receiving funding not only from FACC, she's division of NIH, but also from USAID.

And the belief, Wall Street Journal and others have reported this based on our documents, the belief is that one of the patient zero in Wuhan was a guy named Ben Hu, H-B-B-B-B-B-H-U as the last name, Ben-H-H-H-U, who was receiving funding from NIAD and USAID for these gain-of-function experiments. And we have the documents showing that Ben-Hu was the guy getting the money and doing those experiments with Batwoman in Wuhan. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, what is a bio-weapon and what is biodefense? It's, you know, it's two sides of the same coin, and it's really in the I of the beholder. So after 2001, you know, 9-11 and anthrax attacks, the DoD started funneling a lot of its, you know, bio-defeance and bioweapons projects through Dr. Fauci at the National Institute of Allergy Infectious Diseases. And he kind of became the guy on that who oversaw the distribution of money. in those dangerous projects that I would argue the only reasonable reason to do them is for bio-weapons development because why else would you be creating Franken viruses in a lab to make them more contagious and deadly to humans?

The chances of a virus like this actually breaking out in nature, the same one that you create in the laboratory, the chances are astronomical. So you're not kind of getting, you know, the idea they would claim that they're trying to get ahead of what nature might do. But you don't know what nature is going to do. Yeah. And the cure is going to be worse. And that's what we have here is you have this, this, this, again, that would I and other, many other people believe is bio-weapons research under the guise of biodefense. So you have, we're creating new viruses.

We're then creating the cure for those viruses. and then the idea in the worst case scenario would be. And then we're also creating these viruses and collecting these viruses in places around the world where you could reasonably deploy one of them and claim that it was something that broke out of nature because it is similar to a natural virus. So there are back coronaviruses in China. So you could conceivably create one that looks like that, but it's tweaked a little bit. And it could be a bio weapon, but you would claim it broke out in nature.

and because of the secret of research and experimentation, no one would ever actually know. And it's kind of like me thinking back to when Dr. Fauci was trying to create a vaccine for AIDS. Kind of reminds me of the same thing. And how much, Justin, does pharmaceutical companies have a lot to do with some of this animal test and how much do they have to do with this, especially in terms of, say, for example, the pandemic and the amount of money that pharmaceutical companies made on the vaccine, you know, how much influence do they have over some. of this animal testing. Well, they love it. They love all of this because the U.S., you know, the U.S. is paying, the U.S. taxpayers, us, we are paying the R&D costs for the discovery and R&D costs for a lot of these drugs.

We're constantly exposing contracts for drug safety testing, toxicity testing, where dogs are being poisoned with massive doses of experimental drugs and vaccines. And each of those contracts costs us millions of dollars. And usually the recipient and the partner on those contracts is a pharmaceutical company or some kind of biotech company. So we're footing the bill for all of the drug discovery and R&D. And then these companies are taking those drugs and making billions of dollars off of them and tax the – and we don't see the benefits of that. So it's big – animal testing is big business.

Animal testing is not only big business for the people who are breeding the animals and transporting animals and building the cages and all that and experimenting on them while the colleges, you know, the colleges and universities and professors who are making it killing off this. But it's also, yeah, there's pharmaceutical companies around the country and around the world that are making billions of dollars off things that taxpayers are paying the cost to develop. And certainly with vaccines, there's a lot of incentive to be involved in things like gain of. function research because if you can create a virus and then also create the vaccine and then force everyone to take it. Yeah. Then, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of money to be made. So I think those types of perverse incentives, hopefully that's something I know RFK feel

strongly about and people like Rand Paul are concerned about. So with the GOP and the majority in the House and the Senate and running the White House, I hope we can see some reforms. I mean, the left used to be the party that was concerned about these things. But that seems to have flipped. And yeah, so I do think there's a lot of perverse incentives with animal experimentation in general. I mean, you know, one of the big controversies right now that's happening nationwide. And if you, you know, it's been in popular press and science press is that the Trump administration, for every grant that the federal government gives out, There's something also called indirect costs where in addition to spending billions on actual

research projects, whether animal experimentation or otherwise, the institutions that house these laboratories and how the researchers also get administrative fees, billions and billions of dollars in administrative fees, sometimes as much as, you know, 95% of the cost of the grant. The, you know, college university will get, you know, close to 100% on top of that, just to keep the lights on, to hire staff, to pay their electric bill, to pay executives. So this is big business. And that's why when we have our campaigns to cut animal testing, you know, who comes out in force, even if they're not doing the type of testing we're going after?

It's colleges and universities and the union that represents college professors and the professional organizations that represents all these experimenters. Because, you know, where we see a dog, they see a dollar sign. And there is just so many people making a living and or getting rich in institutions rigging in billions of dollars because of this stuff. So even if they don't care about animal experimentation, whether an experimenter research involves animals or not, they care about the billions of dollars that are attached to them. Yeah, absolutely. And I came across this video. This was you in the House Select Subcommittee the other day.

And you were talking with the representative Eli Crane about tax-funded use. of animals for gender transition experiments. And I thought the caption on this was funny because it says, we thought this was AI, you know, like an AI made up video. And so this was you talking to Eli. And we're going to play that quick clip. And then we'll talk about this on the backside. Listen.

A million dollars was spent for transgender animal testing. Yes. And that's, I would say, is the floor, not the ceiling? Because the information on federal databases is not. It was pretty incomplete. So you think we're going to find out that it was much more money than that for transgender animal testing? Yes.

Can you describe what exactly the American people's taxpayer dollars were spent on regarding transgender animal testing? Yeah. In a lot of these cases, they involve mice, rats, monkeys who are being surgically mutilated and subjected to hormone therapies to mimic. female to male or male to female gender transitions, gender affirming hormone therapies, and then looking at the biological, psychological, and physiological effects of the gender transitions, looking at the effects of taking vaccines after you've transitioned these animals from male to female or female to male, looking at the size of their genitals changing

after you've put them on estrogen or testosterone therapies to transition them. And in the case that the chairwoman, the example the chairwoman gave, there was a $1.1 million grant to give female lab rats testosterone to mimic transgender male humans and then overdose them with this party drug to see if animals who are taking test, Female animals taking testosterone were more likely to overdose on the sex party drug than animals who are not taking testosterone. Mr. Goodman, are many of these taxpayer-funded animal studies shared with the public, or is there a significant oversight of this research? You essentially needed a degree in information technology to navigate the federal spending databases to find any of this stuff. So what you found is we're not being very transparent with what we're spending.

these funds on. So there you go. And Justin is crazy to me to hear that. I mean, obviously, when you hear stuff like this, you know, over the past four years, eight years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever it is, there's obviously been this mass push from typically one party versus the other, but, you know, on transgenderism. And then, you know, if you're like a conspiracy theory, you might think here, well, they're experimenting with mice and, you know, spending tons of money on transgender experiments. Are they doing that because they really truly care about the mass inflow of transgenderism that we have in this world?

Or have you ever thought about it the other way? Like, are they trying to figure out how to make more people transgender and, you know, almost do like a mad scientist thing, if that makes any sense? Yeah, you know, I don't know. I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know the true motivation behind a lot of this. to me as someone who's kind of been watching these things for the last 20 years, I certainly look at money as the motive. You know, I think I use the term money grab in the hearing when they asked me about this.

So, you know, why would be spending money on this? And you look at, you know, there's lots of examples in recent history over the last decade or two decades where some type of, there's some kind of catastrophe. You know, COVID's a good example. As soon as COVID happened, every animal experiment, you know, not. every, but you know, animal experimenters all across the country were like pivoting their research focus to COVID. All of a sudden, everyone needed to do COVID experiments because the government was dumping billions of dollars into COVID research. So all of a sudden, all these labs that never did an experiment with the coronavirus before are clamoring for money

for COVID. And we need more monkeys. There's a monkey shortage. We need to do all these COVID experiments and there's not enough monkeys and there's not enough mice. And so it becomes, it becomes lucrative to do it. We saw the same thing, like I was saying earlier, after 9-11 and the anthrax scares in the U.S. back then, all of a sudden there was billions of dollars being dumped into biodefense. And Fauci, that's kind of how he made his name and became so powerful is the billions and billions of dollars that were being dumped into that as a means for preventing another terror attack. I think the situation with the transgender animal experiments is similar. Again, there might be some other motive that we will find out about later or that I don't know about.

But as far as I'm concerned, this aligns with those other examples where something becomes, you know, there's either a crisis, a national crisis catastrophe, or there's just something that's popular and trendy. and the Biden administration decides that it's going to issue billions of dollars in different funding mechanisms for DEI stuff. And then people who have floundering research programs, you know, otherwise unemployable mad scientist people might be like, oh, there's DEI funding for transgender animal experiments. And that's so that, you know, I'm willing to do that. So they apply for grants and get them. So again, yeah, there may be something else. on there. I've never seen any evidence of that. But, you know, these experiments, you heard some of the descriptions of them. I just, they're just grotesque. And completely irrelevant to human

health. I mean, transitioning male and female, you know, transitioning male mice and female mice to the opposite gender and vice versa. And doing it with, and doing it with the rats or monkeys and giving them vaccines and giving them drugs to treat gender dysphoria and looking at their behavior. None of this has any relevance to human beings at all. No, it does it. And that was going to be my next question. What are the most horrific experiments that you have investigated and how do you find out,

how do you uncover this stuff? So we have a very active research department who spends every single day filing Freedom Information Act requests with different federal agencies. We are filing lawsuits when the agencies don't respond or they return completely blacked-out documents, obviously in violation of FOIA. They need to be more transparent. You can't black out everything, but we'll get completely black pages that are redacted through FOIA.

So we're submitting records requests. We're filing FOIA lawsuits. We're spending a lot of time on government funding databases. There's a variety of different databases that show government grants and contracts from every federal agency. And then there's some NIH-specific pages and databases that just have information on all the grants and contracts. The NIH is giving out. And then we're triangulating information we get through hard documents through FOIA with the government spending databases. And then with peer-reviewed scientific papers that are being published in journals.

So we might see a paper that's published in a journal describing some horrendous animal experiment and will often, it usually includes the grant number. So then we can trace that to the federal spending database, see how much it costs, see who the money went to, and then request documents from the government to get more details about what the proposal was, who's involved, what they're doing to animals, what it's going to, what it has cost and what it will cost. So a lot of the time, you know, what we're doing is just these investigations trying to put the pieces together from all different places to see what's really happening to animals with our tax dollars. And on top of all that, we then work on policy solutions with members of Congress to get more transparency.

You know, we're working on a bill with Senator Joni Ernst right now, who's the Senate chair of the Doge caucus in the Senate, you know, over there. and we're working on a bill with her to make it more transparent how much money is being spent on federal research. So there's a lobbying component. There's an investigative component of it. And then obviously there's the communications component where we're taking all of that packaging up for both our members and for the press and for Congress and making sure we get the word out and then propose solutions. It just sounds like so many of the experiments, not long after or before, they're also doing a lot of the same things on people. And that's very interesting to me, but also going back to kind of the causation of some

of this, right, whether it's to gain a function or, you know, it's like, are you creating a problem to then, you know, make a solution to make the billions of dollars that you're making? And I think that's why so many people have just lost so much hope and faith in the medical industry or the, or the healthcare industry. And, you know, our good friend Nathan Jones, which owns the Clear Company, which is X, L-E-A-R, they have a nasal spray company. And so his nasal spray company, they did quite a few studies. They found that the nasal spray actually killed COVID on site, and then especially in the nasal

passages. But, you know, it wasn't long after that. You know, he kind of presented the studies. He did nothing more, nothing less than any other, you know, nasal spray company would do, but they got sued by the FTC. They kind of went back to even some of the stuff on with the pandemic as far as they only gave you one solution. It's like either get the vaccine or don't.

you're going to die if you don't, but they didn't really ever talk about, you know, hey, here's some preventative measures you can do. Take vitamins, do this, exercise, eat right. And it just sounds like they want to always create a problem to then offer a solution. With that being said, what is the solution of ending animal testing? What can they do beside that? And I mean, because it sounds like it's kind of worthless. Yeah, I mean, those are all interesting observations.

And I agree in large part. I mean, so first of all, with animal experimentation, with a lot of this, quote, unquote, basic research is what they would call, you know, curiosity-driven research. It has no point that there's no application. And actually the government is, and there's some grant programs where if your research is too relevant to actually having a real application for real world people, they won't fund it. My wife actually had an experience where she's a researcher and she submitted a grant application. They said, this has too much real world application.

We're not going to give you the money. So that's a lot of what's happening. And also with disease research, you don't want to, I mean, what's the incentive to finding a cure for these people? Because if you're the research, if you're the animal experimenter and making animals sick, if you find a cure, you're out of business. Right. Right.

The grants stop. The money stops. So it's actually, there's incentive for them to never solve the problem. Right. Because there's a whole industry around investigating the problem. And then that's why, yeah, people are skeptical that are we creating these problems just for the industry that can then be propped up around it to study the virus and try and get billions to try to create a cure whether they're successful or not. So I think there's a lot of reasons for people to be skeptical of the NIH and our public health institutions and the pharmaceutical industry because I don't think they, I think they've all shown their true colors, especially since COVID. but that they're bad actors in a lot of ways.

Yeah. And they have motivations other than simply protecting people and keeping people healthy. That's really the least of it. And in terms of like what the, you know, what the solution is, you know, our approach to this is different than some other organizations. You know, and I think a lot of what you were just talking about too gets back to freedom and liberty. We don't think people should be forced to pay for these things. Number one, they're completely stupid and ineffective and wasteful and fraudulent, and no one else is going to pay for them if the government doesn't force taxpayers to. So, you know, from that perspective, we think if you want to, you know, if you're a supporter of X, Yers, you know, I gain a function is probably a different story.

Like, that should just be prohibited because we've seen what can happen. But with other animal experimentation, if you want to support a college or university or private company that does that, go ahead. if you're an individual, donate to the Gates Foundation, donate to some charity, donate to the buy stock and economy. There's a lot of ways you could support companies that do those things. But in a lot of these cases, these experiments and these research programs would simply stop existing if the tax money was cut off because they have no application for the real world. They're not providing any dividends for regular people and for public health.

And there are basically welfare programs for man scientists. So if we cut them off, we'd see what the free market actually supports. And you'd see animal experimentation, you know, as we know it would end. The number of animals and labs who are being tortured would dramatically, dramatically decrease. So number one, cut the money off and you'll see what sinks and what swims. Second of all, there are a lot of modern technologies that are more effective and efficient than animal experimentation. Technology, you know,

AI can be used to screen drugs and chemicals. You can use, there's technology like cutting edge stuff called organs on a chip where they can take some ethically sourced human cells or tissues and basically create a miniature little organ that's a size of your thumb and you can model diseases in it and test drugs. So there's a lot of great alternatives to the current system,

whether it's cutting the funding or, you know, some would, you know, there's other groups that are working to shift the funding to other things. But the system, as we know, it is broken and it needs a massive shakeup. And that's why we're enthusiastic about these dramatic cuts to public health agencies like the NIH, because there is so much waste, fraud, and abuse there that we've seen firsthand through the years we've been doing this white coat. And I've been watching for the last 20 years, you know, you look at the, you know, there's a big, report in the New York Times a few weeks ago that RF case cited during his confirmation about the amyloid hypothesis for Alzheimer's. And basically it was an $800 million taxpayer-funded

fraud that was executed on the American people where all these researchers knew what the research they were doing was fraudulent and fake. And the NIH kept funding in any way. And they just published papers and built a whole industry around this fake research. And they were finally exposed yet you have people who benefit from that same system who are unwilling to say anything because they're afraid that one day you're going to end up on the chopping block. So like I said, there's just all these perverse incentives to maintain the status quo in the biomedical research community that they can't be trusted to self-police. And now they're upset that people are coming in from the outside and saying, look,

you've let all this waste, fraud, and abuse go on for decades, can't happen anymore. and we're going to do something about it. So I'm bullish. I mean, I think that we're going to see a lot of wasteful animal experimentation cut, even a whole areas of research cut. I can see something like transgender animal experiments, being on a chopping block sooner rather than later. And like I said, a lot of people coming in to run these public health agencies

are people who have all said the right things on these things in the past, you know, whether it's dog testing or gain a function or Wuhan or Chinese labs. and with the stroke of a pen, they can do a lot of good and save a lot of tax dollars, save a lot of animals, potentially avert another global health disaster, and just little things that they can do that the last administration was not interested or willing to do. So, yeah, I see, I see, I think there's a lot, there's a lot to be hopeful about. Again, we'll see what happens when the rubber really hits the road as everyone gets in place here in these agencies. but if anyone can do it, I think it's these people.

And we'd be remiss if we did not bring up the beagles stuff. Yes. And we do have a baby beagle. Well, he's not a baby, but he's my baby. His name is Maverick. But I just think about all these beagles being tested because they're docile and sweet. But, you know, when I hold him or pet him, he has a soul. He has a heart.

He licks me in the face. He loves me. I love him. Like I don't understand how they can do testing like. that to loving beings such as beagle. I have nightmares about this stuff. Yeah, and even our, you know, before we actually got this beagle, we had never had a beagle before.

And there was a beagle that used to hang out around our local little town here. But I guess someone when he was a puppy let him out for whatever reason, but he would show up at the grocery store in the winter. It was insanely cold. But sometimes he would go in the grocery store. Sometimes he would show up in Walgreens. He would show up at Sherry School. Yeah, he stayed at the elementary school and stole the kids' lunchboxes.

Yeah, but he was in. possible to get. And finally one day, we got him and it was like the hardest process to get him to trust us. But the reality of it was is that once we built trust with him, he was the most loving dog. And then it wasn't what a year and a half later, we found out he had kidney failure. We spent tons of money to try to keep him alive and it didn't work. It was like one of the hardest animal deaths we've ever been through. I mean, it was like losing a family member. With that being said, you know, I know right now going on at Ridglin, and I don't know if I'm saying the facility, right?

Yeah, Ridgelan, yeah. But there's like 4,000 beagles there that they're finally getting them to investigate. Can you tell us just a little bit about that? Yeah, you know, we've been in touch with the local activists there and the University of Denver lawyers who have brought the legal case against Ridgeland. But there are these, you know, we were talking about these companies. I mean, there's pet profiteers in this country that literally their business model is breeding beagles to be tortured in experiments.

These animals are born to die by the thousands, and there was a company called Envigo, based in Virginia, that got shut down a few years ago. They had 4,000 beagles there, and they were supplying labs not only inside the National Institutes of Health. One lab at the NIH that we've been investigating for eight years does septic shock experiments on beagles that they were getting previously from Envigo

and now from another company called Marshall, but this laboratory buys beagle puppies, cuts their throats open, forces pneumonia causing bacteria into their lungs, and then bleeds them out to cause hemorrhaging to put them in septic shock, and then just watches how their health deteriorates for 96 hours until they either die before that or they kill them. And this has been going on since the 80s, this laboratory has been operating and raped in millions and millions of tax dollars, kill thousands of dogs. So that's one example of, you know, where these beagles end up. Obviously, lots of Fauci funded labs.

So Ridgeland is one of those companies. You know, this is the dog and cat experimentation in this country is a great encapsulation of the problem where public policy and public health institutions and where the public and taxpayers actually are morally and ethically are totally at odds, right? So two thirds of people in this, of households in this country, have dogs and cats in their homes and consider them members of the family. I think in a lot of cases they like them more than human members of their family. And certainly that was the case in my when I had.

Yeah, we have over 60,000 dogs and cats locked in laboratories in the United States right now, at colleges, universities, and private companies, places like Ridgeland, where they're being tortured and killed. and what you do to them in those laboratories would be criminal cruelty if it happened elsewhere, except we have these state laws that are exempt animal experimenters from cruelty laws, specifically because they know if the public finds out what they're doing to Beagles, they would be incensed and want these people thrown in jail. And the reason that Beagle specifically are chosen is just so damn ghoulish.

We just exposed recently a contract being funded by, the Department of Defense and the National Institutes of Health for dog testing in China, where we are being forced to pay for drug testing experiments on 300 Beagles a week in a Chinese laboratory. And we got through the Freedom Information Act, we got the documents detailing this contract proposal. So they explain how they're using 300 beagles a week and these drug tests, whether they're either injecting them with or jamming tubes down their throats and pumping the experimental drugs into their stomachs.

But then there's a line that asks why you chose Beagles. And they say, this is exactly what they say in this contract, verbatim, is we chose Beagles because they're cute, docile, and easy to domesticate. So the exact same reasons why Beagles make such great members of your family that they're small, they're cute, they're well-behaved, is exactly the reason why they're also easy to put in tiny cages and abused. They don't fight back. And of course, we've exposed a lot of laboratories.

Some of the most famous ones were being funded by Fauci, where in these labs they actually cut the beagles vocal cords, so they can't bark in the laboratory because beagles are notoriously vocal. But some of these tax-funded labs, and I talked about this at the hearing, there was literally a line item in some of these government-funded contracts for cordectomies to slice. the dog's vocal cords. So they'd be quiet in the lab and the experimenters don't have to hear them. That's insane.

It just breaks my heart. Justin, listen, first of all, I know we have just a few more minutes left, but I want to thank you and your organization for, number one, exposing Falsci in the very beginning. Because, you know, who knows? Without you guys, a white coat waist, maybe we would have never known. And we don't know. And we have to have organizations and people like you guys to actually. be out there exposing the truth and trying to dig because even during COVID and people trying to research anything on the VIR system.

Are you kidding me? And that was one of the things you were saying in the hearing is like, it's damn near impossible to actually find anything on these. The systems are completely screwed in a lot of ways. But Justin, what is the way that people, if they want to help your organization, how can they do that? Because obviously, I think you guys are one of the leading organizations out there that are fighting for not only animals, although yes, you're definitely fighting for the animals.

You're also fighting for people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we don't consider ourselves an animal group. I mean, we work on an animal issue, but we are a taxpayer watchdog group. We are concerned with, you know, what the government is doing with our money. And we want what the government is doing with our money to align with our values in the country. And even just looking at dogs and cats, you know, we are a nation of animal lovers. And, you know, red, blue, green, whatever the color and, you know, of your political party is. I mean, everyone can agree that we shouldn't be torturing pets and laboratories with our tax dollars. And, you know, not all of our work enjoys the support of Democrats and Republicans

in Congress, but certainly stuff on dogs and cats does. So we are a nonprofit. We're a 501 C3 nonprofit organization. The overwhelming majority of our income comes from care. people across this country, small donations. We have three million members, but just small, $5, $10, $20 donations from people like that around the country who want to support our mission. So you could visit our website, whitecoatwaist.org, and also on all the social media platforms at White Coat Waste. We're very, very, you know, we're active on a lot of them, but we're very, very active

on Twitter in terms of, like little twist and turns in campaigns, sharing news clips, all of that. That's kind of the best place to see that stuff. see a better work with Congress. But, you know, we need doers and donors. Certainly, we're grateful for any generosity people may be able to offer in terms of money and donations to keep our organizations lights on. But also we need doers. We need people who are signing our action alerts and sending those letters into Congress asking them to support legislation that supports our shared mission, which is getting animals out of government labs and ending this cruel and dangerous

animal experimentation. So again, at whitecoaweaste.org on any of the platforms, whitecoat waste.org, at whitecoat waste on any of the social media platforms, whitecoatwaste.org is our website. And yet, um, we need all the support we can get from folks and we're grateful for it. And we couldn't do the work that we do without our army of people who are constantly blowing up the phones at the NIH and making their voice heard in Capitol Hill and asking the leaders of this country to prioritize this. Yeah. Well, Justin, man, it's been awesome that you came on and gave us some time. And, and like I said, I want to say again, for a lot of people, we appreciate all the work that you guys do.

We appreciate your knowledge and expertise and your studies and research and all that. I mean, a lot of people don't have a ton of time to research stuff like this. And so that's why we wanted to get you on the podcast, you know, although I think we could talk for hours and hours. And maybe I would love to have you back on some time to talk in further detail because I want to ask some bigger, deeper question, especially as far as taxpayer stuff and kind of what USAID is uncovering. We've done a couple of shows on that. But Justin, also, where can people follow you if they want to follow you? Do you have your personal accounts out there somewhere? Yeah, so you can follow me at Justin R. Goodman on Twitter.

Okay. Or X. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Justin, thank you so very much for coming on. Thank you, Justin, so much. This is so passionate to me, and I want to do anything possible to help you.

Yeah, we're actually going to have the Save the Beagles. I think organization or people that are involved with that come on soon. So we'll talk more specifically about the Beagle aspect of this. But like I said, thank you so very much again for all you do. Thanks so much for your support. Yeah, not a problem. All right, guys, that was Justin Goodman with White Coat Waste Project. And I do encourage everybody if you guys care about this issue whatsoever.

Go support these organizations like this. We are. We're going to support them. And we're going to sign the documents and send the forms in wherever we need to. And I need you to put those on X, Chad. Yeah, we will. So that all of you can send in these forms and get this stuff stopped.

And by the way, guys, you guys can follow us on X, Investigator of the podcast. We also have Facebook, Instagram, and all the other socials. But, you know, the big thing here is that we've been kind of talking about the COVID pandemic, the gain of function aspect of everything. We've talked about the Beagle scenario, you know, the issue with Dr. Falschi, especially, I think that's where it kind of really blew up was when people started to realize that Dr. Falci was involved in a lot of this inhumane, unethical treatment of Beagles. And obviously, we are beagle lovers or beagle owners are.

But I think the bigger thing here is that not only are organizations like white coat waste, and I think white coat waste by far is the biggest organization, although yes, as Justin said, they do stuff on where your taxpayer dollars are going more specifically, but that heavily includes the animal testing and experiments. And when you start hearing about how inhumane this stuff is, you know, if you have a beagle like we do and know how loving this dog is, and then you, and then you know that there's, I don't know, I would call them mad scientists out there that are, as Justin said,

anybody else that would do anything close to this would go to prison. Cruelty is a big thing. And yet they're torturing these animals for what reason? And that was one of the things I probably should have asked him, like, what good is it to torture beagles in any way, shape, or form to human beings? Well, he pretty much said that it was worthless and wasteless. Yeah, exactly. That's going to be it for this show.

Found My Way by Holman is going to be our outro song. have a lot more coming about this animal cruelty thing, the inhumane experiments. We're going to have a representative from Save the Beagles. These guys are out there desperately trying to stop a lot of the experiments specifically on beagles. There are thousands of Beagles intestine, as we heard tonight with Justin. And so we'll have them on with them month. And we're also going to have Rebecca from Dane for Dogs on. And she is more involved in the Ridgeland Farms in Wisconsin. Yeah. So we're also going to have her on as well. Okay, cool. And just so you know, this episode will release tonight, but we are anxiously awaiting the Epstein files, which there's a lot of weird hanky-panky stuff going on there.

But as we know more, we will definitely get that information out as soon as we have files in front of us that we can actually review. I know the FBI is, I don't know, I think some parts of the FBI is trying to either divert or slow down the release of some of these files. I know the Southern District of New York has thousands of files, they say, which the FBI has yet to receive. And I know Pam Bondi, the AG, said that they must receive these files no later than tomorrow. So we will see how these files will be released. Will we get full transparency on that? I don't know, but we're going to find out. Whatever we get, we will definitely present to you guys.

But that's going to do it for us, guys. We really appreciate Justin from White Coat Waste. I think people like Justin are doing amazing work. We have to have people like him that are out there fighting the good fight. And it's not just for animals, man. They're fighting a good fight for us people as well. And a lot of these things are connected. You know, what they're doing to animals, I think they're also doing the people.

I think that we've been experimenting on, especially the past four years. Well, they're using a fetal tissue from unborn children and testing them on animals. Yeah, that's crazy. But guys, until next time, we love you. Peace out. Peace out, guys. Passing by life is good Best I feel so

As I reach out, reach out reach out To I find my way I found my way I was in the dark I kissed it all I made it through the day Because I find my way I find my way

In bad times I know I'll be okay Because I find my way I find my way, my way, I found my way, my way, I found my way, I was in the dark, I kissed it all, I made it through the day, because I find my way, in bad times, I know I'll be okay, because I find my way, because I found my way, because I find my way, my way, in the dark, I kissed it all,

Because I found my way