Investigate Earth Conspiracy Podcast - Karen Read Retrial | Conspiracy, Cover-Up, Or Justice

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

In this explosive episode of Investigate Earth, we break down the latest from the Karen Read retrial — a case that’s becoming more about corruption and conspiracy than simple justice. Karen Read is accused of killing her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O’Keefe, but many believe she’s being framed to protect those inside the system. With new testimony, shifting timelines, and shady law enforcement ties, we ask the hard questions the mainstream media won’t. Is this a cover-up? Who’s pulling the strings? And why are so many voices being silenced? This isn’t just another trial — this could be the unraveling of something much bigger.

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now only 7-5-10. Hello, and welcome back to Investigator Earth Podcast. I'm your host, chat, alongside my beautiful wife, Sherry, on tonight's episode. We're diving into one of the most explosive trials in the country right now. That is the retrial of Kavanaugh of Karen Reed, and as of today, things are already getting tense in the courtroom.

This isn't just a murder case. It's a story that's pulling back the curtain on alleged corruption, coverups, and a system that may be protecting its own. Karen Reed is back on trial for the death of Boston police officer John O'Keefe. But the real question is, is she the one on trial, or is the truth itself being buried? Let's get into what's happened so far and why this retrial could blow this whole thing wide open. Guys, welcome to the show.

It is May the first 2025. And as Justin Timberlake predicted, it has become May. I'm just kidding. It's May. It is May. It is now May. Guys, welcome to the show. We have a very, very special guest on the show with us tonight by the name of Ross.

Ryan, Ross has been an avid listener, a friend of ours, and he has contributed so much to this podcast over the years. Ross, welcome to the show. Hey, guys, welcome. Thank you very much. Not a problem. Ross, can you give me just a little bit of your background, number one, about why you got interested in the Karen Reed trial? And I know you had went to college for something in criminalistics, correct? Yeah, I was graduated from Indiana State University in 1993 with a bachelor's degree in criminology. I was going to be a police officer. My senior year, I was involved in a car accident and paralyzed me, which changed the course of my life and did five years in dispatch with the police department.

So I think my just love of helping people and wanting to make what a little difference I could got me into staying in the field. And I just, I love criminal law and something about this case with Karen Reed just sucked me in. I don't know if the police involvement or the cop involvement. Plus, once I got into it, noticing all the corruption that's involved in it, is just amazing to me. Yeah. And how corrupt the system is in general. And, Ross, you're a listener of ours, obviously. So I want you to tell people that maybe is like, why are they doing a freaking trial case on investigator?

podcast. Do you think people will be interested in what we're going to talk about tonight? I think they will. Like I said, once we get into it, they're going to see that there is a lot of corruption and a lot of conspiracy going on to it. They're basically trying to pin a murder of a police officer that was found in the front yard of another police officer. That itself is kind of suspicious to me. Yeah. And once you go from there, it just gets deeper and deeper. And so my question to you as just to preface this episode, do you believe that Karen Reed is innocent? I do believe she's innocent from the evidence that I've seen from the first trial. And the prosecution in the second trial is doing a very good job of, I guess, I don't know what the word I'm looking for, just creating the scenario that it could have happened the way they're saying it.

but all the evidence and science that the defense is going to bring out will definitely show that she is definitely innocent. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think I didn't watch the first trial. I've only watched the retrial. And so far, I think the prosecution is doing a pretty good job of laying out the foundation. But you can see when they get snipey and when they really want to like dive into something for an hour and you're like, okay, I got the point. move on.

Yeah, why do you think they're doing that? Obviously, we have Brennan on the case now. He is the new prosecutor. He used to be a federal prosecutor. And I know the guy that was the main prosecutor on the first trial last year. He is still on the case, right? So, but they brought in the Brennan, which they believe that, you know, from what I have read and kind of understood, they wanted to, in the first trial, kind of ignore the conspiracy around it. The prosecution did not want to talk a lot about the conspiracy side of it.

they wanted to pretend like it never happened or there was not even a conspiracy around it. Whereas Brennan is kind of from, you know, according to sort of a lot of people, they're saying he's kind of hitting it head on and he's, you know, tackling this topic by saying this is so far reaching. This big conspiracy is so elaborate. It's so ridiculous. And so he wants to kind of play into that. And he wants to, I guess, more focus on, hey, even if we have to spend an hour on just redundant crap in the courtroom,

maybe that is part of his strategy as far as getting people to forget about the conspiracy side of this and focus on these very minute details in the courtroom. Do you think that's at all true? I do. I think it's kind of a diversion from the truth, which in this case being what it is, that's all they have to go on is diversion from the truth. Yeah. So with him, like I said, I mean, he's been diving into stuff that, like you said, like you said,

It's been an hour on something that could take five minutes. And it's just kind of a smoke stream to what's really going on. So. Yeah, for sure. And I was thinking about this. We're going to play a clip of week one recap in just a moment. We're probably going to break in and out of that. Then we're going to dive pretty deep into the corruption conspiracy side of this. Like, is law enforcement trying to cover this up, which sounds crazy, right?

And when you think about stuff like this, think about an entire department or at least investigators being involved in some type of cover-up for various reasons. When you first hear that, you are like, there's no way that that would happen, right? I mean, we trust law enforcement. We trust, you know, police. And we do for the most part. I mean, there are definitely bad apples, but there are absolutely corrupt organizations, corrupt departments throughout the country.

And, you know, for those that have not listened to our episode on Spartan Murray County Sheriff Chuck Wright, where we had Nick Duncan on and that whole ordeal where he's being investigated by FBI potentially going to be indicted soon. and that's in our own backyard, you know, you start thinking that it's not just corruption at high levels. You think about corruption as like, you know, whether you're a Trump supporter or a Biden supporter, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, government in a lot of ways over the past 10 years to 20 years or so has been very corrupt. But we don't also understand how corrupt local government can be and local departments. And I think that's where this case is really going to shine on, shining a light on if this is true.

if there is some type of cover-up because of the circumstances surrounding this, Ross, that leads me to the question before we get into the clip. For people that know nothing about this case, Karen Reed was dating a Boston police officer, right? And his name is John O'Keefe. And during this time, I guess they were headed to a party and the party they were going to, I guess, Karen Reid was going to drop off John O'Keefe to this party. Help me and the listeners understand where did this trial come from? What happened on that night, just kind of in your own words? Personally, to say real quick, there are a lot of great police officers in the country.

For sure. But it does take one bad apple to shine a light on all of them. So that being said, this case is a woman and her boyfriend, Boston cop, went to couple bars and the parties that they were with, this Albert family and McCabe's were partying and went back to the Albert house to continue the party after the bars closed. Karen and John were last to arrive as far as I know. And 5 and

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birthday thing and she left things got something happened they claimed that she they got in a fight and he backed in she backed into him and hit him and left him to die basically okay and so this was at a party at night and what they arrived at this party what 1230 or 12 o'clock or somewhere around there yeah between 12 15 12 30 yeah so midnight and it was snow in that night Karen and john do we know how long they dated

I think since about 2020 because I remember them seeing something about starting during COVID. Yep. I think you're correct. So off and on, maybe on for probably four or five years. Okay. I got you. I was thinking about this. Like, well, should we get into some of the conspiracy stuff before we get into this clip or not?

Because, I mean, I want this to kind of be conversational. I don't want to necessarily bore people that have already heard the week one recap. But I think at the very least, I want to at least play this section. This is from Court TV. kind of gives the outline of what happened, basically what you kind of just said, but they kind of go a little more in detail. I want people to hear this, and then we'll break in in just a moment. Listen. We are on the record in the Karen Reed murder retrial. I'm your host, Cody Thomas, and I'm here to break down week one's biggest courtroom moments. Karen Reid, who was accused of killing her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe, is back in court after her first trial ended and a mistrial.

We're going to get right into day one, but first, let's get you caught up on the case. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. After deliberating in Dedham over five days, a mistrial in the case against Karen Reed. We will not stop fighting. Reed is the college professor accused of killing her Boston police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, hitting him with her SUV after a night of drinking. She claims she's being framed to. a massive police cover up and that O'Keefe was fatally beaten inside a fellow officer's home.

It's a case that has divided a community. The jury of six men and six women visited the crime scene and heard testimony from 74 witnesses during the nine-week trial. And all of a sudden, Karen said, there he is, there he is. Let me the F out of this car, and she started kicking the door. I hit him, I hit him. She repeated, I hit him. And then she was saying, did I hit him?

Could I have hit him? And then she proceeded to say that she had a cracked taillight. With no video or eyewitnesses, the first trial turned into a battle of the experts. The vehicle traveled up to 24 miles per hour in approximately 62 feet. What if anything occurred? The right rear of the Lexus struck the pedestrian John O'Keefe. That does not look to me at all remotely like an impact. from a motor vehicle.

We found a Google search that happened. First of all, the search was how long to die in cold, and it happened at her before at 2.27 a.m. I'm of no doubt that the only time those two searches were conducted was at 623 and 624 on the morning of the 29th. The defense also raised questions about the police investigation. Has you ever used a leaf blower in a crime scene preservation effort. First time. Not once did you mention that this video is actually completely inverted.

I did not know. Lead investigator trooper Michael Proctor also came under fire. She's a whack job. No ass. Now, Reed faces a new jury. And new special prosecutor, Hank Brennan, plans to introduce new evidence, including molds made of Chloe's mouth. Chloe is the German. and Shepard owned by the Albert family during the night in question. Those wounds were inflicted by a dog attack. But they actually got rid of the dog altogether. Do you know that Chloe exists that we provided notice to you that we went up and saw Chloe and took molds? I want to pause here for just a second.

Ross, obviously they're talking about here in this second case where you're seeing these actual photographs. crime scene photos where it shows John O'Keefe's arm, it appears to be visibly bitten by a dog. Now, I don't know if anybody has ever seen dog bites on an arm, but usually they look pretty obvious. They'll have, you know, it looks like puncture wounds. And unfortunately, our dog that we used to have used to bite. I think he probably bit like 12 people, which is, I know, crazy. Yeah, and he bit me too twice.

Yeah, and he bit Sherry twice. but do you think that this new case is going to bring in better evidence than they had in the first case, and why is that? Do you have any idea about that? In terms of the dog bite marks go, definitely looks like dog bite. I mean, they're spaced inch and a half to two inches apart, puncture wounds with scrapes coming out when they, when he pulls out. but they've had what three years now to come up with new evidence they should they better have better better in new evidence i would think yeah and so can we set the scene real quick because i don't think necessarily this clip is going to set the scene like we need it to set the scene when Karen reed dropped off john o'keef at this house at about 12 a.m. midnight right it was

starting to snow at this time correct am i correct on that? Yeah, it just started a little bit before that, and the roads were slick and snow covered, but you could still see green grass from what they say. Okay. And they, yeah. And then so he was found in the yard, correct? And he was not found until somewhere around, what, 6, 536 a.m. Correct.

6.04, I think, is when they claim out. Okay. And then also during this time, so. So, Ross, can you tell me, obviously, they got a ton of cell phone data in this case. Right. From the time that John O'Keefe was dropped off at this house, at what point in time did the cell phone data quit recording any movement? Do you know? Was it pretty soon after he was dropped off?

I was listening to some stuff, and I believe it was around 1234 that it was kind of shut off by pushing the button. and then there was some other stuff up until about, oh, 1254, I think, was like the last final shut off. Okay. So it's like the last thing. Okay. Okay. So.

And I think this is where the prosecution and defense are arguably different in what happened here. Because what happened is they went to two bars with all their friends. They, like Ross said, they wanted to continue the party. so they went to their house, to the Albert's house. And I believe what happened in the car because of Jen McCabe's testimony, she saw them out there for a while. And it could be that maybe they were arguing back and forth. I don't think Karen wanted to go the party.

She was ready to go home. I don't think really John even wanted to go necessarily. But, you know, they were already there. So what it sounds like is she was going to wait in the car for him. She wasn't just dropping him off. He was going to go in and say, hey, guys, we're going to head out, blah, blah, blah. And she was waiting for him. And according to the testimony, this is what it gets really confusing because on the prosecution side, they're saying he never went into the house.

Karen said, yes, he did. He went into the house. Look at my text messages. Look at all the phone calls. I was calling him. And at one point, I was super pissed off because he wouldn't come back out. So I left. Yeah.

Right. Now, Ross, there is a key piece of evidence here, and let's go ahead and talk about it. I mean, we're going to get into a clip, but we might as to go and talk about it, especially from what Sherry just said. So he has dropped off. Maybe she's waiting, as Sherry says here. And she thinks that John O'Kee's going to come back out of the house. And according to Karen Reid, he did go in the house. Is there any evidence that may point to the fact that he actually did enter the house, whether it be the steps and you,

mentioned something last night to me about temperature. Talk about that for a moment. Right. The data shows from the cell phones that he took, he went, I'll say, what they say, 25 meters, 25 meters. And they're saying that's about 84 feet from one of the time he got out of the vehicle. And then the... Yeah, it was like 36 steps, right?

Go ahead. The notification. things like the notification services on your phone, when you go inside a building, they won't pick up as location services. That's it. Sorry. They don't pick up as much. And so with the being inside, it would kind of dim it.

And, you know, once underneath the cover, like inside a garage, it wouldn't be as good as pickup. And was there some kind of temperature difference? that they picked up. Yeah, they had, I was looking at today, and I heard some stuff. It was 82 degrees or 84 degrees. I'm assuming that's in the vehicle. And then it drops to like 72 degrees, which would be probably the perfect temperature for a house.

And then it goes from there. So it's just the data that they're showing is showing that he left the vehicle and went in the house. Yeah. And that's what's interesting to me is because the defense is saying, No, he didn't go into the house. He was at this flagpole in the yard in front of the yard the whole time he got out of the car and didn't move. But the data on the phone shows he took 36 steps. I don't know.

I haven't measured how long, how many steps it takes to get into the side door of the house. But I would figure probably around 36 steps. And Karen said, you know, not, you know, she's not testifying, but through her interviews, she says that he went up to the side door of the house. and never came back out where the everybody else is saying no he never came in and even jenn macaby or macaabe she's saying no he never came in i text him are you here and she would go to the window each time to look and she said that they saw karen's SUV but it was moving back and forth which is kind of weird to me like why are they moving if they're just sitting there uh maybe they're having an argument maybe they're deciding to come in maybe they're not i don't know maybe that was

the story to try to make sure to make it's not i don't know maybe that was the story to try to make it sound like or look like she was running him over? Yeah, I don't think that happened. I think she's dropped out front. Five-and-sixthern-vallowing in, Pekunoita pestess, alcoed Anterrae hoomata, when his whalington homeions

was key-thewitts, which is, one-most, paneroet and halomia. This-vallelomit-tortilla, now five-semit-50. And right in front of the house, because all the vehicle's sitting out,

and that's another issue coming up, too. and then he got out in the house right to the basement, which that's another thing coming, but, you know, went to the basement and Karen never heard from him again. So the, and keeping in mind also,

obviously at 12 a.m. snowing here, they do have temperature data, right, Ross, on the phone that shows that the phone went from a certain temperature, say it's around freezing or somewhere around there, even if it's like 40 plus degrees,

it's on. your body on your person. If you're out and you're walking and it's cold and even in a car, you're probably going to be cold. I mean, your heat may not be blasting, but, you know, say it's like 50 degrees, 40 something degrees. You get out of the vehicle. It's going to go down.

The temperatures are going to drop on that temperature reading on your phone. Most people don't also understand and realize that when they investigate murders and stuff like this, the amount of data they can actually collect from your cell phone is enormous. It is insane. And so the- Very almost to the point. scary.

It's absolutely scary. And that's why we tell everybody all the time, like, you know, if you don't think people are listening to you or whatever you're doing, like, they have various ways to listen to you in all aspects. At all times. At all times. So, right. He obviously went in, or not obviously, but the phone heated up around this time, right, to like 70-something

degrees. Is that correct? Yes. I think the original one was like 84. So I'm assuming that was what it was when it was. she was in the vehicle with the heat on, it's cold out, you know, and then it drops a little bit, and then it settles at 72 within, you know, three minutes, which I assume would be going into the house. Okay.

So, and then there's a point where it drops like eight degrees or seven degrees, which I'm assuming maybe when he walked to the basement of the house because that would be a cooler temperature. Yeah. Well, it's a cooler than the regular house, so. Okay. It's just interesting during this testimony was Ian Wiffin, which was with Silbright, and he was the company that actually analyzed the data. But what's really interesting about it is he went to the prosecution. They didn't go to him.

He went to them because I guess people were not understanding the data. Well, here he comes giving all this information. And then he does his own scientific experiments with a phone by placing his phone in a freezer. but the defense really got on his butt about this because there was no control about it. Was there a case on it? How thick was the phone? Was it the same kind of phone? What was the temperature of the freezer?

He had none of this data to compare with. And if you're going to do a scientific experiment and you're on a murder trial as a witness, you've got to know these things. Oh, absolutely. You do for sure. I think they also did with the, temperature thing. Honestly, I think it's going to backfire on the prosecution.

Yeah, I do too. He spent a lot of time talking about temperature, and then when they defense went over with, you say, with him? Yes, Ian Within. When they went over it with him, even with, you know, not having the, known the temperature of the freezer or stuff like that,

they still, he had so much information about, like, in 15 minutes in the freezer, it dropped, 50 degrees. In 13, I'm sorry, 13 minutes and the freezer dropped 50 degrees. No, the whole time that they had, after he went in the house, it never dropped more than 15 degrees, maybe total. Yeah.

The whole rest of the night. Yeah. And outside, and they found the phone underneath him, it still wasn't that cold. Yeah. And Sherry makes a good point with the Ian Whiffin thing. You know, you're doing this, you're doing this scientific analysis to be able to bring in your expert opinion on this, but yet you do not actually show or prove how you did this experiment.

And yes, a case can make a huge difference in phone temperature. I mean, imagine just the difference if you have a thick otterbox case or something like that on your phone. You place it in a freezer. And then you do the same exact thing with a iPhone that has zero case on it in the same freezer. I guarantee you the temperature differences are going to be massive. And so that's where obviously the fence would eat him alive on that.

analysis on that. But nonetheless, let's get into a little more of the clip and we'll break down some more stuff. We're going to get into the nitty, gritty, dirty details in just a moment, the conspiracy side of stuff that you guys don't want to miss. Listen. Evidence could also include new testing of the SUV's telemetrics system, new video of Brian Higgins at Canton PD, and reads prior interviews, including with ABC News. It's snowing. John has no coat on. It's windy. So I drop him off. He goes up the driveway and approaches the side door. The changes might signal a different defense,

and possibly the defendant taking the stand. And you also mentioned to the media that there are some things that you wish that you could clarify. Is there anything? He'll be clarified one day, Matt. They'll be clarified. It might not be live, but it will be. Day one kicked off with fiery opening statements.

Prosecutor Hank Brennan says Reed hit O'Keefe. with her SUV in a drunken fight and left him to die in the snow, citing phone data and Reed's own words. But the defense has a very different story. Alan Jackson says this is a cover-up, blaming corrupt cops, and even suggesting O'Keefe was mauled by a dog and his body moved. A first responder was the first to take the stand, recalling Reed saying, I hit him three times.

Then John O'Keefe's close friend, Carrie Roberts, described the frantic search that ended with O'Keefe's body in the snow. Let's take a look. This is the state's opening statement by Hank Brennan. At 6.04 a.m. On January 29, 2022, the alarm

well sounded and fired a car. Firefire paramed, Timothy Nottal, knew that man. As the car pulled up the 34th there, the ambulance, stood at the back door, and the doors opened.

He could hear a woman screaming and shrieking. Now, he wanted any information. Because when you're trying to say someone, you want to know, are they on drugs, medication? Do they have a heart condition? And he looked up at Ms. Reed and he said, what happened? And you'll hear her words to a firefighter nut off. She said, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. We will learn that on January 29, 2022, when the defendant and Mr. O'Kee for in front of 34th of the road,

He will learn that Mr. Keogh got out of the car and she stood by the side of the road after an argument with the defendant that argument, that anger fueled by heavy intoxication in her SUV drove away. She drove at least 35 feet away the argument they pulled her if it ended. She then put the left to see her first,

put her foot on the gas pedal, and began to press, not 25%, not 50%, up to 75% of acceleration. She clicked John O'Keefe. He fell backwards, hit his head, broke his skull, and she simply drove away. This man who helped, a lifetime of help, was left at the corner of that yard, left to die with no help. By the way, I got to stop here for a second because, Ross, I remember something you had said yesterday to me about he hit his head. right so if she if she hit him if she would have had to been going backwards to hit him correct right

yes because that that's their evidence is the back what is it the right or left tell light that was right side right side right side till light was broken so if you hit someone obviously to kill them and mangled them in this way what did he hit his head on because according to medical examiners he had blunt force trauma it seemed like he had blunt force trauma to the head skull fracture you know even when they actually found him, which we'll hear in some of the testimony in just a moment, when they found him, they kind of was uncovering his face. He had one of his eyes were bulging out. So you had this, you know, probably cranial injury or this eye socket injury.

Even UFC fighters can get this injury. And if you have that injury, it's, is, is a bad, is a bad thing. And it seems like that's an eye socket type injury. But then he also had, I believe, a skull fracture. It sounds like on the back of the head, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken. But you had said and mentioned something about a rock that was around his body at the time, or at least later on. Yeah, when they did the jury field trip to the house, someone had since the incident, had placed a rock that said Alberts on it right near where his body was found. to, I'm assuming, make the impression that that's what he, once he got hit, quote, hit by the vehicle, that he fell backwards, hit that rock on the back of his skull, basically skull. And that's what was basically the moral wound.

But at the time, that rock was not there. And the judge when they came back on, you know, that afternoon or the Monday after the, she flat out pointed out, that rock was not there when this happened. And how do we, and who pointed that out? The judge actually told the jury that that rock was not there. Oh, okay. I got you. Very interesting. Because, too, when you think about if Karen was even pissed off at him or whatever and she was just going to fly out of there and clipped him and he fell, wouldn't you think the vehicle would clip part of his, like, mass and not his head? Yeah.

Right. And that's where the evidence doesn't line up. I mean, the doctor will testify soon, you know, eventually. eventually that his, the strike to the back of his head had to be on some type of an elevated surface like a curb or maybe a step in a basement stairwell and not a flat surface. She said that could not have happened on a flat surface. And there's no bruising to any parts of his body except for he's got like what it looks to appear like dog wound bites, like a vicious attack on his arm. and then his eyes were, you know, first there was the left eye, I think, was bulging. And then after he was at the hospital, both eyes were bulging.

Yeah. You know, recognize. Yeah. And by the way, so you can get that from traumatic brain injury. So as your brain is swelling, a lot of that swelling is going to go to your cranial frontal structure, which is like kind of where your eye sockets are because that's where all of the open area of your cranial is. So when you get swelling, that's why a lot of pressure comes. on your eyes. You'll bleed from your eyes, nose

in various other places. But either way... Wouldn't you assume, though, there would be bruising on parts of his torso if the car struck his body? Potentially. I mean, well, because you've got to think about this, you know, they're trying to make the case it sounds like that

the car hit him. And if you think about it this way, if it was the right tell light, they hit him. And the 5th and 6th-carroquess, piquinoes atlora huimata, when his valetone hortician to beckon, which is,

mu-maus, paneroidtta and hallowmia. Uh-huh. T'an-hallomit-tortilla, now five-fix-oom-Torchimend. And that right telllight would indicate that if that part of the vehicle

hit a person, then likely, if you're going to be going at that fast, you know, that fast, that will, which is right under the tell light, would also run over that person, which is usually what's going to cause death or extreme injury to someone in a runover type incident. But we didn't see any evidence of a tire running over his body. Because if you do have a tire run over your body, well, you're going to have fractures.

You're going to have internal bleeding and other parts of your body until you get to your head. but what their whole case to this is is that well he almost got whiplash from the vehicle hitting him and to where he hit his head. So it would have had to have been like the perfect hit to where she hit him. And as soon as she hit it, she stopped. He whiplashed so hard that it would have hit his head, cranial back structure of his head on a rock or some type of surface, elevated surface like Ross is saying. Right with the rock. And it would have had to have been the perfect hit. Otherwise, if you're running someone over with a vehicle, then you're going to have.

traumatic injuries, internal bleeding, and whatever, elsewhere, because that tire under that same place that the freaking brake light was broken out, that's, that's going to be, you're, you're going to place yourself right under that will and you're going to have other injuries than just a head injury. Yeah, I would assume that she would have ran over him as well and you would see even tire imprints on his body. And also one last thing, and one last thing, Ross, too, is the injuries on his arm make zero sense at all with being run over by a car, especially in snow and the grass.

It just doesn't make sense. What punctured him from the car? Yeah, unless she had, you know, nails in her tire, which she didn't. So go ahead, Russ. Oh, I just didn't say if they, I think the way they're trying to portray it is it may have just clipped his arm, his right arm. And when it did, the tail light broke. And that's what caused the punctures, which is preposterous, really.

Yeah. And then it kind of spun him around. and the force of the hit knocked him backwards, and that's when he hit his head on the ground, causing the injuries. But he has a bruise on the back of his right hand, which to me would be more of an indication of a fight.

And the big laceration above his left eye would be, you know, from a fight. A knuckle strike or even maybe a... Now, Russ, was there... Okay, this is something, I was confused about at the scene of the accident, crime, whatever, by the flagpole, was there any indication of any broken taillights there?

Or was it around the scene or was it all at the Meadows property? The initial crack of the taillight happened at five in the morning after Karen woke up and realized that John didn't come home. She backed out of his garage, his shivvy. Traverse was sitting there. She backed into it, barely, it moved the vehicle. They have a video of it that it should come out. And if you watch the first trial, you'll see the video that it does actually move the vehicle.

Cracked her tail light. You can see some white emitting light from it, but not shattered. By no means is shattered. And no of the, when they found him, the Canton PD did two searches in the area that morning. nothing was found in the yard at all. John, his cell phone, and that was it. Not until after the Michigan State Police and Trooper Proctor, who was the lead investigator, took control of the vehicle with anything found in the yard.

And once that happened, it was 47 pieces of red taillight. Wow. Isn't that a little bit of a red flag? I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, but, you know. That's a little bit of a red flag to mean. So, okay, so let's break this down. So there is, there is surveillance camera footage from Reed's house. Was it Reed's house?

John O'Keefe. Yeah. She went to his house. John O'Keeves' house. And it shows that she's backing up, apparently hits the vehicle in the driveway. And that was on the exact side of where the fracture of the tell light was. Correct. Okay.

And then she drives. I guess this is when she's leaving to go find. John, correct? Yes. She went to, from there, I believe she went to Carrie Roberts house first. That was her best friend. Okay.

And then they picked her up. And then Jim McCain. No, I don't think Carrie was her best friend. I think they were all friends with John O'Killard more than her. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, you're right. And so, and we'll get into McCabe in just a little bit because she lied and we'll talk about that. There's so many people involved.

Yes, it's crazy. And I want to point out there. It is. I want to point out, I hit him, I hit him, because this is a huge portion of this trial. It's them trying to say, she admitted that she hit him. But I think about if I was in Karen Reed's situation, yes, maybe they weren't getting along as best as they should have. Chad and I don't get along all the time either. And if I dropped Chad at a party, went home and the next morning he's not home, I would be freaking the hell out too saying, did I do something?

do I not remember something? Could have I hit him? What have I hit? I mean, what happened? Well, if Sherry didn't hit me, if sure he didn't hit me when she left me, she's definitely going to hit my ass when I got home. Oh, shit. Also, is it more of a, is it more of a, I hit him?

Or could I have hit him? Like my cousin Vinny, I shot the clerk. Yes, exactly. Or is it I hit him. I meant to hit him or I hit him. You know, did I hit him? Could I have hit him? That's what she was saying.

I don't think. she actually said, I hit him. If she did, it was more of a question. Right. And she was so frantic. And if you don't know her, which the EMTs didn't, you're going to hear I hit him. You know, you're not going to hear, did I hit him? You're not going to hear the question in it.

But clearly, she was questioning it. Yeah, but also keeping in mind, you know, what did the paramedic, we'll get to that. But what did the paramedic, I guess, question, what was the question to the paramedic? did they ask the paramedic what she said in particular as far as how she worded did i hit him or i hit him because there's very contentious things about did she say i hit him or did i hit him those are the two things i guess that is very contentious topics in this do we know what the consensus on that is as far as what what what was the main turning point on trial one the first trial what they presented to the jury

I think they presented the fact that she said, I hit him. Okay. But, again, knowing both of the cases so far of both trials, it's come out that they don't think she even actually said that. She may have said, did I hit him to one of the other paramedics or the EMTs who has turned out to be a best friend of Brian Robert's daughter? And who's Brian Roberts. Tell everybody who that is.

Brian Roberts is the Boston cop who owned the house where John Keith. was found in the front yard. Okay, gotcha. And also on the examination of the paramedic in trial where they were questioning him, one of the things the prosecutor did well, at least, and it almost sounds like it was prepared. But when he asked the paramedic and he said, well, those injuries on his arms, what did that look like to you? Did it look like scratches?

And it was almost like leading. It was like leading the witness to saying, hey, yeah, they're scratches, right? not puncture wounds. But listen, a paramedic, and I've been in the fire department for, I mean, I was in the fire department for many years in my life. And, you know, especially in the circumstances of this particular case is snowing. You're having to uncover the body. You're working to save this person's life.

And yet you're telling me that you're going to decipher as a paramedic, whether these injuries on his arm, which is the least of your worries at that moment. or scratches or puncture wounds. And also, when law enforcement shows up, including Trooper Proctor, which was apparently, I guess, the main investigator here, you know, if say Trooper Proctor came over to the paramedics and said, hey, look, it looks like these injuries over here was probably from the vehicle hitting them or whatever. Most people don't realize, like, how that will play into someone's mind, whether you're

a paramedic or firefighter or whatever, to where going forward, now you're supposed. now you're saying, well, yeah, these injuries probably was from the actual vehicle hitting him. They were the, you know, they were the kind of rash marks of the vehicle hitting him or striking him. And so how things are betrayed to paramedics or firefighters on the scene. And I'm not saying necessarily that this shit was a set up from the very beginning. I'm just saying it it seems like maybe where we get into some of the conspiracy on the after side of this, where we really get into the story of everything that kind of led into this moment this night. That's when you start thinking about the conspiracy side of stuff. And we'll get into that.

Let me throw you a quick branch into that one. Yeah. Cooper Proctor didn't talk to that paramedic until February 7th. Oh, really? Okay. So it wasn't even the day of it. And that was set up by Kevin Albert, who is Brian Albert's brother, who works for Kenton PD. Okay.

That makes sense. So, you know, the first, the initial investigation was Canton PD. at the scene and nothing was secured. This crime scene wasn't secured. Nobody was separated. Nobody in the house was really talked to. They did go in just for briefly a couple minutes, but no interview. And then Proctor wasn't on scene until after 3 p.m.

Okay. So anybody that knows anything about police work, when you have a crime scene, it's taped off. Nobody enters, nobody exits without a crime scene log. Nothing was done correctly. Nothing was done. seems as it was done as a cover-up from the very start. Yeah, that's interesting. Let's get into some more of the video and then we're going to, or the clip and we'll talk

more about that. And after this, we're going to talk about the deep conspiracy side of this. Listen. Okay. By the way, this is the defense opening statement we're about to listen to. There was no collision with John O'Keefe. There was no collision. There was no collision.

You'll see from the evidence in this case, that this case carries a malignancy, a cancer that cannot be cut out, a cancer that cannot be cured. And that cancer has a name. His name is Michael Proctor. He was the lead investigator on the case, the case officer, the architect of the entire prosecution. You'll learn there's not a single part of this case, folks, not a single part that he didn't touch, that he didn't direct, that he didn't orchestrate personally. He didn't care about finding the truth. in his world, his priority

was to protect the brotherhood to protect that blue wall to protect his friends who were at the Albert's house that night. You'll also learn after this incident and within days of one another, both Brian Higgins and Brian Albert, both police officers,

both trained investigators, got rid of their phones. And what else you'll learn? Brian, uh, Brian Albert got rid of. shortly after this incident brian albert got rid of his house the whole thing just sold it his childhood home a home that had been in the albert family for generations he literally sold it mere months after this incident dog rehomed phones destroyed house sold i want to pause here for a second because

so albert which is the home that we are talking about where jono keeps body was found in the front yard he sold his house. They got rid of their phones. And is this Proctor and Albert? No. They got rid of their phones or who was the two? No, it was Higgins. Yeah.

Okay. Higgins and Albert. Okay. And then they also rehome their dog. Chloe. Correct. So that's interesting. And listen, let's talk about Chloe for just a moment.

Chloe was a German shepherd 70 pound dog, which was what most of Most police officers use are some type of German shepherds as far as canine training, those kind of things. And in testimony, 5th and 6th-ternerner, in-whoimata pestess, alcoed anteroan, when his valetton hoonings, quiinited, tortillae,

which, one-mone-man-a-lan-filette and hall-oomia. This-vail-halloy-tortilla, now, and say to my viscomend. Chloe, we definitely know, is not good with other dogs. No. They never said that she's not necessarily good with strangers, but we know for sure that she shows aggression towards other dogs.

Yeah. They actually did say she was not good with strangers. Oh, did they? That must have been the first trial because they haven't in the second. Okay, yeah. Okay. But it's interesting that Jen McCabe, the mourning of it, and this is another interesting point I just want to point.

I just want to point out where all this chaos is going on in the morning, guys, at 6 o'clock in the morning, you have all these cops, you have all these fire engines, you have all these EMS trucks. Not one person came out of that house to check to see what was going on. We're talking about Albert's house. At the Albert's house, nobody came out to check to see what the heck is going on. I don't know about you, but, I mean, maybe you're a heavy sleeper, but I think if I heard fire engines and saw lights everywhere, I'd be wanting to see what's going on in front of my house. house. Well, especially being a cop and a first responder. I mean, he's trained in it.

And why do they not have a ring? Like, why didn't they have a doorbell camera or anything at his house being a cop? He's got a dog. Yeah, well. Yeah, he has a dog. And even when they question, was it McCabe? Was she the one that actually went into the house? Yes, she went in at like six o'clock in the month.

morning, everything is dark. She burst into the bedroom. Yeah, and said, guys, something's happened. And then they were questioning her about Chloe. Where was Chloe? Chloe was nowhere to be found, the dog. So where was Chloe, though? Did they get Chloe out of there?

I think during the night, they took Chloe or one of the kids, one of the daughter, whenever the daughter left with her boyfriend, she might have taken Chloe with her. Or there was another time when there was a vehicle sitting in front of the house at 2.30 in the morning or 3.30 when the file driver came by and there was a vehicle obstructing right exactly where John O'Keefe was found. Which is interesting. Yeah. So the colleague definitely could have left after the incident happened before everybody

got there at 6 o'clock in the morning. And by the way, so let's also talk about this, Ross. Yes. How many people after 1230 left this house do you think? I mean, did. Oh, my goodness. Did, was there a lot of people? It was like a baker's dozen.

Let's see. There was Levinston, two girls that were friends with Brian Albert Jr. That's the birthday. That's why they were all there. Colin Albert supposedly left right away at 1210. Oh, goodness. I would say probably six or eight people left. And so this was after.

supposedly Karen Reed hit John O'Keef ran over him and killed him and killed him to leave him dead in the yard. People are going out. And nobody saw a six foot, 150 pound blob lane in the front yard with a little bit of snow on top of him. Okay. And so can you, can you explain to me where,

just explain to our listeners that do not know. If you can like think about it and try to explain in your head, where he lay, where he died, maybe not necessarily where he died, but where he was placed, potentially, if we're thinking conspiratorial-wise,

where he was placed, would people have been able to see him leaving this house and getting in their vehicles in the driveway or wherever? My honest, depending, I don't know how you could miss him. Like I said, there was not,

they was snowing, but it wasn't as much snow as when they found him. I don't know what the snow total was at 6 in the morning, but at night, when it happened at 12.30, had just, you know, started snowing enough for the ground to be, the roads to be slick, and they were being careful driving, because they pointed that out. He was, I'm sorry, what was your, I'm sorry.

No, no, no, no. What the question was is, like, would people leave in this house be able to see him, you know, when they were leaving? Yeah, I don't, I mean, the yard's only maybe 40 feet from the front door to the road. And, you know, 84 feet, where's the, where's, where's, where's, or 72 feet, the flagpole is 72 feet to the door. Yeah. So 72 feet, that's, you know, that's not very far.

Mm-hmm. 25 yards, maybe. What's interesting, Ross, and I want to ask you about this, because I'm still unsure about this part of the investigation going on or the trial, is the fact where Karen was parked in front of the flagpole, where she supposedly ran him over and he was laying, right? Right. And when the snowplow comes the next morning, there's a car in the very same place that Karen was parked, right?

Right. What, whose car was that? What is all that about? That's part of the question, part of the conspiracy, I guess, if you will. At some, at Brian Higgins, they'd all been drinking. Obviously, we know that. Higgins left and went to the Canton Police Department where he has an office because he's, he's best friends with the chief, and being an ATF agent, he just needed a local place to do some work, I guess.

So the chief afforded him in office there. He had pre-range of the apartment come and go, except obviously the locked areas, you know, evidence room, stuff like that. But he had gone to, quote, move some vehicles around for the snow plows. Now, the irony in that is the vehicle was parked in front of the house, the snowplow couldn't get in front of the house. So is that really a lie? Maybe not. Maybe it just wasn't at the police department. You know, there was a vehicle parked at 3.30 on 30 in front of 34 Fairview and the plow

driver stopped at the end of the road to see if he could get past it to plow the road on his second time past it after 230. Wow. Okay. And so, and we're going to talk about also McCabe. We're going to talk about the witness that actually went into the house. We're also going to talk about the safety F, ATF agent a little more in detail in just a little bit because I think that might be a big piece in this puzzle as well.

But let's listen to a little more of this testimony of week one. You'll learn that all these things happened shortly after the incident where John O'Keefe was found unresponsive and dying in Brian Albert's front lawn. You'll learn that during the trial, the Commonwealth bears the highest burden known to our justice system. They must prove every element of every charge beyond a reasonable doubt. They're not going to be able to do that. Not when every piece of this case was handled by a disgraced investigator with a motive to protect his friends, not when the physical evidence contradicts their very theory, not when their own medical examiner won't call this case a homicide.

By the end of this trial, you'll conclude that Karen Reed is not guilty of hitting John O'Keefe with her SUV. There was no collision. She's the victim of a botched and biased and corrupted investigation that was never about the truth, folks. It was about preserving loyalty. And at the end of this trial, we'll ask you to return the only verdicts, all three of them, that are consistent with the evidence, the science, the truth, and justice. Not guilty. Not guilty.

Not guilty. And this is Timothy Newtall, firefighter paramedic that is being... As you were nailing, I want you to take us to that moment. As you're nailing trying to help Mr. O'Keefe. Did you have a chance at any point to look at... up. I did. And by the way, Ross, I know you have something to say. Go ahead. Just saying, he was pointing out to return the not guilty on the three verdicts. Karen's being charged with second-degree murder. She's also being charged with motor vehicle

manslaughter involving alcohol and leaving the seat of an accident causing injury or death. So they're very serious charges. And, you know, it's up to the prosecution to prove every element of every charge. Yes. And if you don't, that's where the acquittal is going to come from if you can't prove every element. So just a little preface for everybody that was kind of wondering, maybe what she actually charged with.

That's the three things. And she could be, she could be convicted of one, but not the other, I believe. She could be convicted of all or she could be convicted of one or none. Yeah. Correct. Which if you think about it, like the manslaughter thing, you know, they would obviously have to say, well, then. we prove beyond reasonable doubt that she was the one that contributed to John O'Keefe's

death. Now, the murder aspect of it is, you know, maybe that was intentional. The manslaughter aspect is I was drunk. I accidentally backed into him. I left a scene because, you know, whatever, that's the manslaughter aspect. And then obviously, the third charge is leaving the scene of something. So, you know, you have to prove one either second degree murder or manslaughter to, even have the third charge because, you know, they're leaving the scene of causing death or bodily arm.

Now, Ross, in the first trial, what was the mistrial because of? The one they did not, I quit here on was the secondary murder charge. I'm not sure exactly why. I forgot to go back and watch the final verdicts. I didn't actually find a video on it for some reason. But that was what it was. But for second-degree murder, like first-degree murder, you have to show. that it was premeditated.

And second degree murder is more like an opportunistic on purpose. Crime of passion. Yeah. Like I'm pissed off at you and run you over and kill you. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And so who we're listening to here is the paramedic that was on the scene. And keep in mind, guys, we're listening to the second trial testimony from the paramedic.

Right. And this is the first witness of the new trial. Yes. Here you go. In the middle of piquoes, ...alcoed anteroombe, when his valetone he cameited

tortillaan, which there's more than manroated canafilette and halloumi. T'an-hawloom tortilla,

now only 750. You looked up when you were trying to help Mr. O'Keeh, can you tell us who you saw?

I saw a middle-aged male, uh, middle-aged female with blood on a face. And I, real quick, as I was in the

process of providing ventilations, I said, do you know this person? And when you looked up and saw that person and asked about any background, what did she say to you? I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. How clearly do you remember her words saying to you, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him? I remember it very distinctly. Now here is Kerry Robertson, and by the way, we're going to pause right here for just a second before we. We're going to pause here. So obviously this I hit him, I hit him, I hit him thing is huge.

Yes, this is the huge part of the case. Because if you're a paramedic and you distinctly remember Karen Reed telling you, allegedly that she's saying, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. But listen how you can say it differently. I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. Yeah, I get that. That's what it sounded like.

Okay. She was excited. But it is strange. Like, why would you think that you hit him? I mean, you must have been plastered, obviously. She had no recollection of what happened after they left the waterfall. She thought she left him at the waterfall. Yeah, she did.

The night before, she didn't even remember even taking him to the Albert's house. And listen, then that night when they went to go get drinks, her drink didn't taste like it had any alcohol in it. And supposedly. Yeah. And John's like, well, you know. know, just get a shot and pour it in. Well, listen, we do that too. Well, but here's the thing, too, is like there's, you know, some of her interviews and stuff.

It sounds like she's tried to downplay, you know, how much she drank that night, which I guess maybe in her mind or I guess her attorney's minds, they say you should probably downplay this because maybe this is going to work better for you in trial than then going the opposite end, which is like I was completely plastered. And it sounds like everybody in this case was plastered or drunk at some point in time. and driving, yeah. All of them. Right.

Which, and don't be wrong. I mean, that happens in law enforcement. We have seen it. We have seen that. No, that doesn't happen.

Come on. Yeah, we've seen it recently. And actually, we're not even going to go into that because we were going to go into that in one episode. Yeah, nothing to see here.

But, so now who we're listening to is the friend, right? This is, and this is not her friend. This is Carrie. Carrie Roberts. Yeah, Carrie Roberts.

And this. This is really a friend of John O'Keefe. And the reason why she's friends with him is because long story short, John's sister died of cancer. And then her husband died a short time later. So he moved into their house to raise their kids. And their kids are his, you know, niece and nephew. And with the niece and nephew, Carrie Roberts is very close to John O'Keefe because of the nephew. I got to.

Okay. Because their kids do a lot of things together, sports, whatever. She gets them on Friday nights. They hang out a lot. And, you know, of course, the community wants to help John O'Keefe raise these kids after these kids lost both their parents in a short, short time. Yeah, for sure. And they've been friends since high school. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And they actually went to prom together, which was a bombshell in this trial, I guess. Right. All right. Let's listen to some more of this. What was the reason that you woke up? I got a phone call at 5 o'clock in the morning from Karen Reed.

Were you expecting a call? No, I was not. Had you ever received a call at 5 in the morning from Ms. Reed before? No. Share with us what happened that morning. What did you hear? Karen called and was the first thing she said was Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, John's dead.

And then she hung up. So as you approached Fairview, tell us what happens? As we approach Fairview at the house. You mean the house or the street? Yes, yes, the house. Jen said my sister's house is right up here, and I said, okay. And as we approached the house, Karen from the backseat is now screaming. There he is, there he is, let me go out of this car.

And she's out kicking the back door to get out. Okay, what happens next? And then I unlocked the car. I looked over. I didn't see anything. And I unlocked it so she could get out of the backseat. I looked at Jen and I said, she's crazy. And then I turned around and watched and she ran over to a bound of snow.

When she started running before she got anywhere, did you see anything at that point? I did not. On date. Okay. And by the way, so this is the friend of John O'Keefe. She's saying that Karen Reed while she was, I guess, in the back seat while they were driving her to this location, apparently. that she saw John O'Kee's body in the yard before they saw anything. And this is what the prosecution wanted to kind of pin on this.

They wanted to say, look, she knew where John O'Kee's body was. She didn't see John O'Kee's body while they were driving. She knew where he was. And they didn't see anything. And that's what the prosecution wanted to make sure that the witness or sorry, that the jury thought or at least understood was that while these two women in the car were driving, driving. Well, there was three women, actually.

It was Carrie, Karen, and Jen were all together in the car when they pull up to see John. But what you're saying is right. They're trying to tell the jury that, listen, Karen's the only one that saw his body. Neither did Carrie or Jen see it. Yeah. And I don't even think what the prosecution is trying to say is that she didn't even see the body. She knew where his body was based on when she hit him. Right.

Right. Right. You know, that's how I take it too. Yeah. So that's what they're trying to pinpoint here. And so, yeah. Of course, they wouldn't lie about it. No, of course not.

Absolutely not. And, you know, unfortunately for Karen in this case, like basically everybody is not on her side in this entire thing. I mean, as far as the connections and everybody, there's really nobody that's for Karen, that's everybody for either John or the Alberts. Yeah, because they were all friends. Yep. She was the outsider and they were all close friends. Which is, by the way, guys out there.

just be careful your surroundings and circumstances, especially if you're drinking and you go to parties, because I can tell you right now, there is nothing good usually that happens at parties and it's 12.30 at night or 1 o'clock in the morning. Everyone's getting shit-faced. I don't care if they're cops. I don't care if they are pastors.

I mean, it does not matter. Yeah, if you're at 12, 31 o'clock in the morning, you're at a party and I've been there. I have literally been in a situation back when I was early 20s where I got jumped at a party. And listen, the whole reason I got jumped at a party and I had a friend with me, which ran like a little B, like a little B, bro. Like this guy when when shit kind of went down, he ran from the party. And I knew that something was going to happen because these dudes are kind of Marines and stuff.

I didn't know them. I knew one of them very well. But like I had arm wrestled one of them. And I'm not like a, you know, I'm not like an arm wrestling champion or anything. But I arm wrestle this dude. He was trying to impress this girl at the party. I did beat him in this arm wrestle. And I didn't think anything of it, but I thought nothing of it.

And so after that, you know, I talked to this girl a couple times. I knew her for a long time, right? And so I was like, well, you know, I talked to her for a couple minutes, chopped it up, went outside, was talking to this guy's brother. And I was seeing, I was looking through the door. And I kept seeing this guy was like staring at me. And this dude was. And by the way, this guy was named Andy. I'll never get.

And he was a huge dude. He was like built, ripped, you know, like. Yeah, and how can this scrawny guy beat me in armwrestly? Well, first of all. It's your perfect marine. No, first of all, I wasn't scrawny at the time. Oh, okay. No.

And I'm not even scrawny now, mofo. Well, I'm just saying compared to like a built marine, bro. Well, okay, but I was, I was in shape then. So, I mean, I wasn't like, you know, bodybuilder, but I was in shape, you know, whatever. But I was looking through the door and I kept seeing this dude stare at me and stare at me and stare at me. And there was a lot of people in this house. And then all of a sudden, I saw him do a.

do a B-line through the house. And he was coming right to me. And I was like, well, maybe he's going to talk to me, whatever. He comes outside. He's like, I'm going to give you three seconds to get off my porch. And I was like, what did you say? And by the time, I even realized it. He, and this is why going back.

He punched me in the face as hard as he could before I even knew. I don't even like he got to three, which is unfair, by the way. I, he did say three seconds. And I think he only gave me like one and a half seconds. Dang it. So I need to contest that, actually, going forward. So then, so, but listen, but it was a brawl. I got jumped by these people, including the dude that I thought I knew.

My friend, I went there with, ran. And I just remember there was a time. I did get hit by a two before. I did get knocked out for like, I don't, I don't know exactly how long. It could not have been long because I got up. I saw the two by four was on the ground, picked up two by four. And as I picked up to two by four, they had a pit bull in their house that they let go. and told the freaking dog to attack me, and he was coming right at me, bro.

I mean, I'm talking about beeline, the fastest you've ever seen a pit bull run. He was coming at me. And I had, luckily, the two by four in my hand. Oh, and I don't want to hear any more about that. But interesting enough, I want to tell you that when I was in high school, the same shit happened to me that we were at a high school party and we were with a Marine that was arm wrestling the guys at the party and he beat them. and they got pissed off and basically beat his ass in the driveway.

Yeah, that's crazy. And then there was this one time at Ban Camp. No, I'm just kidding. I'm literally just kidding. But what I'm saying is here is that especially in 2025 in 2024 and 2023, like when you go to parties or you go to events or you go to places where there are a lot of people, and especially if you go to events where they're drinking. You are an outsider or you don't know everybody at this party or whatever the case is.

I'm just telling you anything that happens to you, whether it's your fault or not, it is going to come back on you because that whole group of people are going to protect themselves over you. Yeah. And I think in this case, this is what's happening. Well, and you've got to look, even Alan Jackson pointed out in the opening statements that thin, well, they call it thin blue line. But in this case, it's more like a blue wall. Yeah, it is. You got three different agencies conspiring against one outside woman. Yeah, and I want to mention two at one of the bars.

Five-Nen and six-terricks in between, pickunoiter, hoomata, when his valetone homeowner, sheinedtoole on, which, one-mo-mawn-mo-a-paneroed-cannoytallu me-hulloomia. T'haw-Till, now,

now five-tenth-one. The buzz. Oz. The boss. In one of the bars, some of the guys were like running, like, rough housing, playing around, hitting each other. You already know. Yeah, Brian and Brian.

You already know when you have drinking involved and you start pushing each other around, it does cause that manly testosterone to come. The alpha side. Yeah, the alpha side to like, oh, you know what? I'm ready to fight, you know. Cops and egos. Oh, yeah. And what I do want to say, I want to make a disclaimer here right now before we get any further in this.

Because what I do want to say is that we are not proclaiming that we know what happened in this case, number one. No, we're just looking at it and the view of what we're seeing the process. Yeah, I mean, we're just kind of looking at the outside view. We don't know what happened. And we're also not depicting law enforcement as bad because, I mean, there's definitely law enforcement as bad. But predominantly, we protect and defend law. enforcement. We have to have law enforcement.

They are very much needed in society today, which is why we just did this podcast about Spartanour County and Chuck Wright and brought Nick Duncan on. And Nick Duncan talked about like kind of what he saw. And then a lot of other officers are starting to come forward against the corruption. And you have to have people like Nick or the others in the county, like in, in the county in specific to Spartanburg to where these people come forward and they say, hey, here's what I have seen. Here's what I have found.

and even the fact that, for example, in Sparmer County, they had, you know, Chuck Wright apparently, according to this Fox article recently, had a hit list. Anyone that was supporting Nick Duncan, they were on a hit list. And even if they, even if Chuck Wright thought that someone was, you know, supporting Nick Duncan in any way, shape, or form, they were going to be on a hit list, quote unquote, meaning like terminated. Yeah, terminated, get rid of. This is my house. I run this house. Yeah. My name is on the building.

Yes. And if you don't stand for me, you're out of here. So you either can be fired or you can write your resignation right now. Yeah. And you either go along with the system or you don't. Because when you don't go along with the system, you're fired. And unfortunately, some systems are corrupt. And so what that means is, is that if you have a corrupt share, if you have a corrupt leadership,

then top down from the command staff and everyone else is going to be, I mean, it's going to be more likely to be corrupt. I'm not saying the officers or whatever, but if you have a command staff that's around this, you know, environment for a certain amount of time, you have a more likelihood that this department is going to become corrupt in various things. And so that's why when we heard and we've been, you know, Sherry's definitely been diving all into the Karen retrial. It kind of gives us some parallels to the Spartanburg County thing. It gives us parallels to our investigation in Arkansas, Malvern, Arkansas about the, about the case of, oh my God, why. Mark Hayes. Mark Hayes, the Marquez murder trial. There was judges potentially involved.

FBI came in that as well. There's corruption everywhere. And so what I want people to understand is that if you're listening to this podcast right now and say you've been following this, Karen Reid trial, understand that corruption is absolutely very possible. And so I just want you to at least be open-minded when you're looking at this. And I'm not even saying that Karen Reid is necessarily innocent. Yeah. And I'm saying, too, what you're saying is we stand behind law enforcement 100%. I want to point out, I don't like, I don't dislike police.

I dislike bad policing. Yeah. And that's huge. I mean, you know, it's just like I said before, you got one bad apple and it makes everybody look bad. So I agree. It's important for those guys to see that to stand up for themselves. Yes. to not look bad because if you don't report a bad officer, are you perfect?

No. You know, are you kind of how far were you lean to protect that officer? Well, let me ask you this. If you're, if you are, if you are a passenger in a vehicle and you witness a murder from your friend, are you an accessory? Are you innocent? Because you're an accessory, just so you know. Right. That's how the law.

Until proven innocent. Yeah, exactly. That is how the law looks at it. And that's no different for law enforcement in this case. So let's listen to a little more of this. And then we're going to get into some of the deeper stuff with the conspiracy. To Carrie Roberts returned to the stand. She got emotional as she described finding O'Keefe's body and remembered Reed asking

if she might have hit him, even pointing out her already broken taillight. The defense went after her hard, calling her memory into question and suggesting she was swayed by a mutual friend, Jen McCabe. Then came gut-wrenching testimony from John's mother, Peggy O'Keefe. She denied ever telling Reed that John looked like he'd been hit by a car, something Reed claimed in a media interview. The state played a 2020 clip when Reid talked about Peggy's suspicion. Prosecutors say that showed a consciousness of guilt. We also heard from law enforcement, first responders, and forensic technicians digging into data from O'Keefe's phone and Reed's behavior during her psyche valve.

Roberts also When you came out of Meadows, did you have a chance again to look at the defendant's taillight on her Lexus? Yes. And I want to say something real quick. This is John O'Kee's friend, Carrie Roberts.

Karen pointed out and said, look, my taillight. And I said, she said, do you think I hit him? And I said, no, I don't think you hit him. What are you talking about? Let's just go find him. Did you have any reason to think at that point that she hit anybody? No.

Did she ever repeat that phrase or question in the same or similar manner again that night? She did at the scene where we found John. How often was the yelling on the way to Fairview? Oh, several times. It was like you couldn't control her. And I was trying to drive in a blizzard. Can you take us back and describe for us what you're seeing? His body was completely covered, but his head was completely covered.

So I started to dig around his face and his eyes and his left eye was fine. But his right eye looked like it was huge, like he had had something happened to it. And after that, I told Karen to get off him. We were going to start CPR. Was anything said at that point about her tail light? About what? Her tail light. No, when the EMTs were around and they were working on the body,

she was running around and saying, did I hit him? Did I hit him? Is he dead? Is he dead? When you were trying to save Mr. O'Keefe, did you ever see any signs of life? I did not. And I checked his pulse.

No, I did not. You saw the interaction between all three of you and the vehicles, correct? Yep. At any point, did anybody stop and take a look at the taillight or the rear end of the car? Not when we were entering the house like I thought, but when we came out. Okay.

And there's no video of that. I'm sorry? There's no video of that. No, I don't believe so. Right. So the video that does exist describes nearly exactly the time that you testified

that y'all stopped at the back of the taillight, and Karen said, look, my tail light's broken. Oh my God, do you think I hit it? Correct. Okay. All right, Ross, go ahead.

So that sparked a lot, kind of a lot for me, really. That is, I think that's where the entire conspiracy part comes up, or not conspiracy, but the cover up, she didn't realize that she hit his vehicle. She didn't realize that the thing was cracked. They went back to John's house first to look for him there. So that's what, and then she said, look, my tail lights cracked.

And then I'm assuming that that's where Jen kind of got in her head. Hey, we can set this up now. Because before that, nobody even knew that the taillight was cracked. Oh, and listen to this. And that was, you know, it happened at five. And then they didn't find him until after they went, they met, went back to John's house to look for him. And then they got into Carrie's vehicle and left Karen's at John's house. So when they went to 34 Fairview, they were actually in Carrie's vehicle.

And Karen was in the back and Jen was in the pasture seat, turned around talking to Karen, trying to calm her down. So that's where, and then that's where. where the the taillight was mentioned and I think that's where Jen you know kind of carried it on because that's the first time that she had thinks could I have hit him that's the first time she mentions it was after they were on their way back to so wait so before they actually found it so you're saying when Karen Reid backed out of her of John Acute's driveway the two that's yeah the two women were with her no they were not okay I got you she went to look and I think that's where she might have,

I don't understand how they all got. Together. Right. But I know that they, that's where they left her vehicle was at John's house and went back to the scene. Well, because at the scene, there's a white SUV in front of the police car.

And that, I believe, was Carrie's vehicle. Carrie stayed the night at Johns that night and then woke up at 5 o'clock and realized he wasn't there. And then she starts making, or Karen, sorry. Karen starts making all these phone calls.

Then Karen goes to Carrie's house, and that's where Jen meets up with them, I believe. Okay. I got you. Yeah. I think that sounds right. And then they went to John's house to look. Yeah. We're not going anywhere else.

We're going back to John's house. We're going to see if he's there. But I left him at Meadows or whatever and blah, blah, blah. And then that's when they said all that. But what was interesting with this testimony that we just heard, she said when I was working on the body, What does she say working on the body? I don't know. Separation.

Well, to me, if she already knew he was dead, you call him, yeah, you call him body. You don't say when we were working on John, but we're working on the body. So in my mind, she already knew he was dead. Maybe, maybe, allegedly. We don't know. That's just what I'm saying. We don't know. We don't know.

Nothing to see here. All right. Let's listen to a little more. and then we're going to break down the conspiracies and all the stuff around this and we'll close this in just a moment. But I know you guys like hearing these long episodes. So, you know, just stay tuned. Here you go. And that obviously was incorrect.

It was incorrect. So your memory was faulty about that incident, that part of that incident at least. It happened on the way out of the house. So your memory was faulty about that part of the incident that you testified to at the grand jury. Yes. Okay. All right. So here is Margaret O'Keefe, which is John O'Kee's mother.

I'm showing you a photograph. Okay. And can you tell us what you see? That's my son. Thank you. May I introduce this as an exhibit? Yes. I want to go back to the morning of January 29th, 2022.

Is that okay? Yeah. Were you home? I was home in Braintree. In Braintree? Mm-hmm. Who were you with? My husband.

Did you receive a phone call? Yes, from Carrie Roberts. It was about 6.15, between 6.15 and 6.30 in the morning. When she called you that morning, do you remember the conversation? Yeah, she said, John was found in a snow bank. And I didn't understand, which I said, what do you mean, found in a snow bank? She said, they found him in the snow. They don't know what happened.

She says, he's brought up to the Good Samaritan Hospital. And they said, okay, you can go down. So we started walking down the corridor. And as I'm walking down, I hear Karen Rine yell. Peg, is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead? Peg? Peg, is he dead? And I just kept walking.

And then I asked, I don't know who was, a nurse or a worker at the hospital. And I said, what is she doing here? She says, oh, she's being psych evaluated. So then they brought us down to the room where my son was. He's bruised up. His eyes were closed. It's just not a good scene. All right, so that was the mother.

Five-and-sixthes in between, picunoidstess, alcoed anteroan, when his whalington humongues on, which is, more thaneroyed-tleda and hallowmia. This is a cana-halloumi-tortilla,

now, seven-five-tenth. Go ahead, Sherry. Yeah, that was Peggy O'Keeh. And, you know, I have to understand as a mother how upset she is, you know, and of course she wants someone to blame. But is she blaming the right person is the problem. Yeah. Because you obviously know she is against Karen Reed because she's like, what is she doing here?

Oh, she's here for a psychic evaluation. Well, why wouldn't she be here? This is her boyfriend of four years. Of course she should be here. Yeah, absolutely. now what did you think? A new mom's ever really liked about daughter's boyfriends. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And especially when I can't. Yeah. Yeah. But I go back to the point of, you know, you get to remember that Karen Reed is the outsider of all of these people. So, and I can promise you this. You know, if, if Sherry and I show up at a party of Sherry's friends, like in whether it should, you know, whatever, various cities.

where her family or people that are involved and look, Sherry has law enforcement and all that stuff. And then something happens. It's coming back on me no matter what. Yeah. So I better not ever be found dead, bro. No,

no, I'm just saying. I mean, it's going to come back on me regardless because, especially if, you know, you think about families

and friends and whoever. And if some of these people did not like Karen Reed for whatever reasons and they already had this, you know, inkling of, hey,

I don't like this person. I don't know. I don't know necessarily that that's the case, but it just sounded like, especially if you hear some of the witness testimony, where they tried to kind of pin Karen as like a jealous person or, you know, maybe she was more jealous. She could be because they said that she didn't want John to do anything with other women. You know, but listen, there are marriages like that all over the world where obviously they don't want their husband or their wife to be around the opposite sex or like have friendships with them. I mean, that's just common sense. When you're in a relationship, you're in a relationship with that person. Yeah, that's a normal thing, right?

I mean, and, and, you know, for Sherry and I, it's like, you know, we have friends together that are male and female. But there's a difference in, like, if I have. If I had to lunch with a dude, like, chat would not be very happy. Or vice versa. Like, if I go to lunch with a girl or whatever. I mean, obviously, you don't want who you're with. And Sherry's, but Sherry and I've been married for 14 years. We basically do everything together.

You know, 24-7 guys. Our relationship is very cool. We're very tight. And Ross is one of the people because, you know, for those that do not know. And I- Oh, yeah, they see the other side of us on- No, on telegram, whatever. But we do live streams on telegram.

We also have a stub stack. We are constantly posting on X and Facebook and Instagram. And if you guys are not following us over there, I please, I encourage you to go do that. But last night, Ross, we had a telegram live. And, you know, we, we kind of show our other side of us on some of our lives that most people don't see. And, and I think that's a good thing because Sherry and I are very close. We are also, you know, we're kind of both alphas in some way to where we butt heads on certain things. And Ross can tell you this for sure.

But, you know, it is healthy. It's very fun to watch. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it can come across on the podcast on that. But at the very least, you know, you have Karen Reid and her boyfriend, John O'Keefe. And it's like in this particular case, I'm actually just surprised that the prosecution has not come up with more dirt on the relationship between Karen Reed and John O'Keefe than they have. Yeah.

I mean, honestly. And I just want to mention, too, that I think the main witnesses in this retrial so far are Carrie and Jen, which. were friends with John through the nephew and the niece. And they were both caught red-handed in lies. Jen was caught red-handed lying to the FBI. And then Carrie was caught lying about when Karen, God, Carrie, Karen, when Carrie, Karen was talking about the headlight. They caught her no lie about that. I just want to mention that they both were caught in lies.

And Kerry even actually admitted it on the stand. Yeah. So that's straight up a intermittent perjury. We're talking about, okay. So let's talk briefly about McCabe for a second. Now, Jen McCabe, yeah. Jen McCabe was interviewed by the FBI. And when the FBI showed up to interview Jen McCabe,

she said give me 10 minutes because I got to get dressed and do a couple things before I can talk to you guys, right? Ross, can you tell me who Jen McCabe is in this whole ordeal? Like, who is she? Jen McCabe, geez, you really put me on the spot here, Chad. Sorry. Now, Jen McCabe is Nicole Roberts' sister. Jim McCabe's husband is Matt. Nicole Roberts is.

is Jen sister and Nicole Roberts husband is Brian, Brian Albert. Okay. Who is the Albert's house at 34th area. Okay. Okay. Great. I'm glad to you actually just got there. So when McCabe was interviewed by the FBI, and this is a very, very telling thing, potentially.

The FBI shows up. They say, hey, I want to interview you about kind of the events and some other stuff. She says, give me 10 minutes. I get to go back and kind of do a couple things before I'm ready to interview you or ready to answer questions. Right. But the FBI was not there to interview her just on this case. I just want to put it out there. I understand that.

I understand. I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm going to get to that. So 10 minutes later, she comes back. And I guess in the trial, they ask her, or I guess the FBI apparently ask her, like, who did you talk to in that 10 minutes? Who was the people you called in that 10 minutes that we gave you once we showed up and said, hey, we need to ask you some questions. Well, she had answered a couple people she called, right?

There was a couple of people she said she called. That was the only people. Her husband and Carrie. Yes. But come to find out, it was like 10 people. And it was almost everyone that was involved in this case. It was Albert. It was Proctor, I believe as well.

Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah, it was everyone. So the lead investigator, Albert, which owned the house, her husband, Carrie. you name it like almost everyone involved but for some reason she did not tell the FBI that she called all of these other people that were involved on that property that night or in the investigation which means that they were watching her so they knew who she called yes and they were there also to ask her questions about i believe proctor okay and so i was wondering why they were there yes so not only

were they there to ask her questions about that night, but they also ask her questions about Proctor. Now, why would you lie, Ross, as a innocent witness to the situation and where you say, I only called Carrie and my husband. But you did not mention that you called everyone else, basically, involved in the case. And I don't know if she called the ATF agent or not that guy.

I don't know. Brian Higgins. I don't know. But the fact is, too, that she did. call her husband and said get your ass home because the FBI is here. Stop this interview. Yes. So, yeah, Matt was her husband.

And then she said she called like four people. And then she actually did call Proctor and Brian Albert. And I think Brian Albert also showed up at her house for the interview too. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Okay. So let's break down some conspiracy stuff here.

The ATF guy. Okay. Higgins. Brian Higgins. What was his relationship at all in any way, shape, or form to Karen Reed? A couple weeks or a week before on the, let's see, that was 28 to the 26, or I'm sorry, the 22nd or something like that, the weekend before. I think they were all at John's house. Not all.

I don't know who all was there, but I know Higgins was there. And Karen watching the Patriots play football, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. sorry Patriots fan but they were watching football and of course probably drinking it seems to be a big thing for them and at some point Karen kissed Brian Higgins

so I don't know if that was the whole motive behind what might have happened or the jealousy was there she knew that maybe her and John weren't getting along maybe she wanted to set something up for the future in case they broke up. If she just wanted to tease him, you know, who knows? It's women, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. And so Brian Higgins was at. Yeah. And women can be women. Yeah, absolutely. Now, Higgins was at this party that night, right? Right. Okay.

He was the guy actually, like, wrestling around with the other Brian. Okay. Right. That's correct. And so if you take this scenario, conspiratorial, let's just, play out some scenarios here. John O'Keefe gets out of the car with Karen Reed, his girlfriend, goes into the house. Now you have this theory that he might have went into the basement, Ross.

The side door. Yeah. From the side door. Went into the basement and this is where shit went down maybe. And going back to your Higgins point, the ATF agent, if, for example, maybe John O'Keefe was pissed. Maybe he was pissed off that he knew that. that his girlfriend had made out with Higgins a week before. And so maybe being drunk or being buzzed or whatever,

he might have went into this house and he might have had some words. He might have, maybe that was his intention to go to this part. Let me interrupt you real quick. There was another thing I thought I heard that I guess Higgins and O'Keefe had some words at the waterfall before John left. That might have been the delay in John coming out was him and Higgins said. The waterfall is the bar, right?

Yes. The waterfalls were the last bar. Yes. Okay. Before the party. Correct. Before they went to 34 Fairview. They all left the waterfall to go to 34 Fairview.

Okay. And they could have had heated words because Karen and Brian Higgins exchanged a kiss. But how do we know that they potentially had words at that bar? Was that the first trial that we found that out? No, I just heard that recently. I don't, I don't know how they, I don't know if they saw it on camera within the waterfall. or what, but I do believe I did hear that there was, they, there was something said between the two them before they left.

Okay. Now, the other thing is, I'm sure I'll get blasted for that one, but. No, it's fine. So, so if John O'Keefe, and we're just playing scenario. Right. Circumstances here. If John O'Keefe goes in his house and he has this vendetta against Higgins, and maybe they somehow get into this verbal argument pretty quickly.

And Higgins is already pumped up at this situation. Yeah. And maybe O'Keefe is, like, pissed to the point where he's ready to fight. And that might have been much barked to fight in the vehicle. Yes. It could have been. That's what I'm kind of thinking. Like, she's like, let's not go in.

He's there. You know, I kissed him. Let's go home. Let's figure the shit out. Wow. You know, maybe that's what they were talking about in the car. It's like, you know, I just, I don't want the drama. I don't want this.

Let's just go home. Yeah. And that didn't happen. Right. And he just might have been the nice guy. went in to say hey guys, you know, I'm, happy birthday,

Brian Jr. I'm going to take off. And he could have been, or he could have been like, I'm going to say that I'd be the nice guy, but I'm also going to put this guy in the place in his place for kissing my girl. Yeah. And listen,

for me, I'm going to go ahead and tell you, if I found out that Sherry kissed a dude a week before and I'm going to the place where this dude is at, and I'm going in and I'm buzzed. Like, like, like I'm not.

number one, I shouldn't be at this party because I already know it's not going to be good. And I'd be like, babe, we got to go home like now. Yeah. And number two,

I'm going in. And if I'm going in, I'm in on a mission. And if I'm in on a mission like, hey, bro, here's the freaking deal. And maybe, and maybe they were fighting.

And sometimes when you fight with a girl about the, about the actual subject that you're talking about, it amps you up even more. Whereas like, where it's like, all right, you know what?

I'm going in here. I'm going to say what the hell I want to say. You can do whatever you want to do. I'm walking in. He walks in and maybe shit went down. Maybe it did. But hear me out too.

You had talked about someone at the party that maybe had some injuries in a picture about a week later. Ross, who was this person? Tell me about that. Like I said, you know, they weren't back to 34th grade for Brian Jr.'s birthday. Well, it's a huge family. A lot of cousins there. One of the cousins is Colin Albert, who is Kevin Albert's son.

I can't remember Calvin Albert's wife's name. But anyway, it was Kevin Albert's son. Well, he was there. And he's kind of that little thug punk kind of kid, you know, a lot of talk. Maybe not so much fighting, but there's a video of him taunting some people, some like a, not necessarily a gang, but other high school maybe or a hockey team, I think it was hockey, was taunting them.

So he was, you know, big words, you know, I'm going to basically kick your ass if you show up and all the stuff. So that's kind of his background. He likes to fight the way I took it. And he does punch a heavy bag. So, but they had a picture of him that Allie McCabe took a week later. and Collins knuckles are completely raw. I mean, like all four of his knuckles,

I believe it was his right hand, were just completely raw like he had been in a fight. That's interesting. And he claims it was from punching a heavy bag without gloves, but you don't do that. Yeah, you usually don't do that. I mean, that's dumb. Like, why are you going to injure your hands,

especially if you're training and, you know, when they're trained, you don't want to injure yourself to where you can't train for another week or two. Correct. That's just dumb. But we're not saying that he participated in any particular thing. But it's just interesting. His knuckles were raw.

Yeah, that's very strange. In the first trial, they were talking about, you were asking about people that left and everything. He was specific with, I left at 1210. And Ali McCabe, who picked him up was specific. It said, I picked him up at 1210. And I took him home and went straight home. yeah and was it was by the way so wasn't macape that when she said that she went into the house was it macape that went into the house to jen yes okay so jenn macape went into the house and which house to the yeah so yeah to the house where the actual murder happened yeah that's her sister's house whatever happened the murder happened yeah so when she went in um and and this is what the i guess defense and prosecution both kind of cross-examine examined her on was, you know, did you go in and were you loud, whatever?

And she tried to say, well, I wasn't really loud because I didn't want to scare them. I didn't want to startle them. And make them think something crazy happened. Oh, do you mean like a body in your front yard that's dead? Are you talking about in the morning? Yeah, in the morning. That morning when she went to go wake them up. Right.

And it was dark. And she went upstairs. She was like, no, I didn't want to startle them. Yeah. So she didn't say, uh, I didn't want to be loud because, uh, I didn't want to be loud because, uh, I didn't want the dog to attack me. She didn't say, you know, hey, they're police officer. So I didn't want to go in and be loud because maybe I get shot or whatever the case is.

She said, I didn't want to startle them and make them think something bad had happened. So I, you know, went in the house and I said. And so they question her and questioner on this. And then how did you say it? Did you say it like? And then she finally said, hey, you know, whatever's name is. I can't think right now. but Albert, you know, here's the deal.

Brian. Brian. Brian. Here's what's happening. You know, whatever. And so, but it's always so very interesting how they want to kind of downplay their, I guess. But he was found in the front yard of a cop. Yeah, their state of mentality during this time.

Yeah. Because they were acting. Well, they're acting like Karen was just bat shit crazy and they were calm. Yep. I'm sure they were all calm about everything. I'm sure they weren't that calm. I'm so curious, if someone's dead on my friend of yard, I'm going outside. Yeah.

And why didn't they ever go outside? That still makes no sense to me. I mean, I get that you're sleeping or whatever, but come on. With all his friend cops out there, why wouldn't you at least say hi? Now, listen, Ross is, what's the deal with Proctor? Does he know all of these people? Proctor is, I want to say, best friends with Brian Albert. He is a Michigan State Trooper detective, and he was assigned this case.

I don't know how because totally conflict of interest. Exactly. But he's been at head tables at weddings. Their kids have been in, Colin Albert was in Proctor's wedding, I believe, when he was younger. They're very good friends of the family. They're around for, okay, you know, birthdays, holidays. come over party, whatever. So they're very familiar with each other and really good friends.

Now, in the first trial, how did the defense kind of screw Proctor as far as his investigation? I mean, that's a big contentious part of this whole thing is Proctor's investigation, kind of how he screwed it. He never separated the witnesses for one. Right. But what was the biggest thing with Proctor's investigation? I, the whole thing was botched. I mean, there's the way he treated people, the way he conducted the interviews or lack of conducting interviews, not getting, you know, the crime scene, you know, secured. Yeah, and the lack of interviews.

Like, he didn't even interview. People, they were all in the same room. If not in the same room, they were what, they could hear what each other were saying. 99% of interviews, you take them to the police department and set them in separate rooms. Yeah. And that's where you do interviews. You don't do interviews in people's front living grooms. You know, I mean, it's just the way he did everything.

You could tell that it was a cover up. And straight from the beginning, there were text messages that he was texting his buddies. And pardon me, but they said, is the homeowner going to catch any shit? And he said, nope, he's a cop too. And that's huge. Yeah. You know, and they were talking about Karen. What about Karen?

And I believe, and I quote, I'm sorry for the quote, she's fucked. Yeah. That's what, and that was what he was saying to his high school buddies on text messages while he was going through Karen Reed's phone looking for nudes, admittedly through the text message. Okay. So he's crooked. I mean, to me, crooked from the beginning. And now he threw in all his best friends that he's trying to basically cover for.

How are you supposed to take that? Yeah. No, I agree. And just another thing to point out, he has lost his job from the Michigan State Police since the first trial. And to get fired as a police officer is almost impossible. Why did he lose his job? What was the reason? Conduct unbecoming of a state trooper was one of them.

Okay. And maybe detrimental to the department, something like that. Wow. I don't know the exact ones. If I have my computer, I could do it a little bit. But I know one of them was a conduct number coming. Wow. And making the department look bad.

And two, you make the department look bad when the FBI comes to investigate your investigations, period. Right. So, I mean, you know, all that, you have to take that into account in this new trial of how bad he's. screwed up and that to show that it is a cover up. It is so clear and that if you can't see it, look at the evidence. I mean, everything, nothing was done correctly, in my opinion. And it's weird. And I'm not a professional.

Don't get me wrong. But I have taken crime scene investigation classes and been trained in it. Yeah. So, I mean, I get it. Nothing was done right. It's so weird. I think one of the biggest holdups. to me as far as like if I have to try to determine whether Karen Reed is guilty or innocent

is you know even going back to Jim McCabe Jen McCabe that did not tell the FBI that she called almost everyone involved that night and she lied about that and she even admitted basically she lied about that she forgot she forgot all of those people that she called I could not recall yeah I could not recall 10 minutes before and so why so you got to ask yourself why would you call all of those people? You're calling all those people likely to say, hey, what the freak do I need to say? If, I mean, and this is just my opinion, but like, what do I need to say? Because I'm calling everyone.

I'm sure maybe if this is a conspiracy, if this is some type of big coordinated thing, which we don't know, we do not know. But if it is, likely they probably had some meetings and said, hey, by the way, if FBI shows up or whoever shows up, you call us. or whatever. And we're going to say, hey, here's, here's what you don't say. Here's what you do say. And that might have started with Proctor. He could have said, hey, I'm being investigated by the FBI. If they call you, call me right away.

Yeah. You're exactly right. Yeah. He's going, I'm sorry. My opinion completely and he's going to jail. I mean, there's, they can't be just this one case. They're got to be, if the FBI's investigating, there's more going on than just this one case. And it's so weird to me because I've thought about this.

I don't know like so much in depth about Karen as far as, you know, is she innocent? Is she guilty? What would be some of the reason behind some of her statements? Like, did I hit him or whatever? I don't know. But, you know, if you're hammered and you don't necessarily know what happened and. You'll freak out about it. But also maybe someone along the way in that drive over to the house put that shit in your head.

We don't know that either. That could have been, like I said, they didn't really, she didn't even know. noticed the tail light. Nobody noticed the tail light until they left John's house after they looked at the house for him and got into one vehicle. They didn't notice the light until they came out of the house. Yeah. But I think that. Not even before they went in.

I think Karen was in complete shock that morning and didn't know what the hell was going on. All she knew was her honey did not come home that night and something was bad wrong. And the other irony of that is, Carrie kept seeing, I was in shock. Yeah. I was just in shock, which she probably was. You know, one, her best friend. So.

Well, Ross, is there anything we're missing on this, on just this episode? Because obviously, we got trial week number three, I guess, coming up next week. And by the way, for everybody that listens to this episode, we're going to be getting back into our regularly scheduled programming next week. But we will be updating this case as it goes along. Is there anything that we have not covered that we should? just based on the current circumstances as it stands right now. Quite a bit. There's a lot of cell phone data that's going to come out with Higgins and Brian Roberts.

And I don't know if they're going to dig into Colin Albert and Allie McCabe, which are the two young ones that she picked him up and left. From the first trial, her cell phone, she said I dropped him off and went straight home. Well, her cell phone through Life 360, she went to the high school twice after, She claimed she was at home for the rest of the night. Brian Higgins and Brian and Albert, I'm pretty sure that Alan Jackson said they both destroyed their phones and got new ones.

You know, what? Why would you do that? If you're innocent, why get rid of your house, your dog, your phones? It's a pain in the butt to get new phones. Oh, yeah. Everybody knows that. You know, and they're doing all that stuff. There's the conspiracy with him going to the department.

in the middle of the night. The snowplow driver will come in and say he didn't see anybody. There's a lot to come out. You know, I'm looking forward to the new evidence that it's come out that we haven't seen. But again, I just don't think that with rational thinking

that you can pin this on Karen Reid. I think she's completely innocent and, you know, time will tell. And I hope that everybody has a level head about it and really takes it into the facts and the evidence, and the evidence is going to show that that's not what happened. And then I'm really looking forward to the next trial when they try to try to pin it on somebody that actually did it.

Yeah, and it's just interesting to see how the prosecution now is using mainly witnesses of the scene instead of law enforcement, because they're trying to keep law enforcement away as far as possible because. Well, they're all related. Yeah. Yeah. So that didn't work very much. in the first case, I guess.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so they're like, well, we got to do something different. All right. I thought to say follow the science. Yeah. Yeah.

Follow the science. I am the science, bro. Right. All right. Well, listen, guys. I think that's going to be it for this episode. I want to bring, you know, we wanted to bring everybody up to date on the Karen retraw because I know a lot of people are hearing about it.

It's on Fox News. It's on everything. And although we do talk about corruption, conspiracy, all of that stuff. I think that maybe. this could be a big conspiracy. And it just so happens to be one of the biggest trials in the United States of America today. Until at least Brian Koeberger trial with Idaho murders that comes up in August. Yeah.

And we're covering that guys. Extensively. Yeah. We're going to definitely cover that. Yeah. We've covered that. We actually had a CIA guy. One of the main CIA guys, Jason.

Oh my God. I can't think of his name right now. But anyways, we had Jason CIA officer on on that series that we did. and we're going to cover this as it goes forward. And Ross, I can't thank you enough for coming on. As a long time listener and a friend of us, I think you did a great job.

And I think that you elaborated on a lot of stuff that maybe we even did not know. And guys, if you like this type of stuff, we'll cover more of it, but just let us know. And Ross, do you have anywhere that people may want to follow you?

I know you have all your little social media is out there. Um, I do, but I'll leave that. I don't really want to. Okay. I think my handle. You guys know what the handle is. Yeah, I do.

Yeah. But I'm on TikTok. Instagram, I believe it's Pod's Wheels. Okay. Other than that, I spoke Ross Ryan. Gotcha. All right. People are going to start investigating you now, Ross.

Oh, there you go. I welcome it. There you go. I don't have anything to hide. All right, guys. Well, that is going to be. It's been fine. I really appreciate you guys.

Yeah, I enjoyed it so much. It's been amazing. Guys, that's going to be it for this episode. We're going to play you out with Meet Me in the Dark by basics. And until next time, we love you all very, very much. And we'll be talking to you very soon. Peace off. Peace out, guys.