Investigate Earth Conspiracy Podcast - Kohberger Pleads Guilty | What the Unsealed Idaho 4 Murder Files Reveal | True Crime Podcast

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

In this powerful episode of the Investigate Earth Podcast, we examine the chilling new details revealed in the Idaho 4 murder case following Bryan Kohberger’s guilty plea and life sentence. Joining us is Kristin, a deep researcher who’s been combing through the newly unsealed court and police documents—over 300 pages of information that the public is only now seeing for the first time. Together, we uncover:Shocking autopsy findings, including Xana Kernodle’s fight for her lifeDetails about Kaylee Goncalves' brutal injuries that left even investigators shakenKohberger’s disturbing online activity, including searches about police scanners and Ka-Bar knivesWitness reports, digital evidence, and haunting clues hidden until nowAnd the lingering question: why did he do it?Don’t miss this breakdown of what investigators knew—and what they kept under wraps until after the plea. This case isn’t just solved… it’s being exposed.

If just for a minute, I'd fall asleep and not dream of years. I don't know most of the times. Hello and welcome back to Investigator, podcast. I'm your host, Chad, alongside my beautiful wife, Sherry. On tonight's episode, we're diving into the latest revelations in the Idaho for murder case. On November 13, 2022, four University of Idaho students were savaged stab to death in their off-campus home. Now, nearly three years later, the man accused Brian Coburger has officially pleaded guilty. Earlier this month,

Koeberger admitted to the murders in a deal that spared the death penalty. Just days ago, he was sentenced to four consecutive life terms without parole, plus an additional decade for burglary. He offered no apology, no motive, and no explanation. Tonight we're joined by Kristen, who's calmed through the newly unsealed case files to help us unpack what really happened that night, what evidence sealed his fate, and why so many

questions still remain unanswered. Stay with us. This is going to be a powerful episode. guys welcome to the show it is july the 29th 2025 i believe that is the date hopefully that is the date i am losing my mind lately it seems like uh i want to go ahead and welcome christin to the show christin thanks for coming on absolutely thanks for having me not a problem christen i want to go ahead and let everybody know i guess a little bit about who you are why you're on the show why we're talking about the idaho four murders especially brian kueber the unsold documents um what group are are you in, I guess, on social media, and why did people recommend you ever, almost anybody?

I don't know if that's necessarily true, but it's the University of Idaho Murder's Case Discussion Group. It's the biggest group on Facebook over like 260,000 members or something like that. It's absolutely huge. And I actually, this is really one of the first cases that I've ever, I don't know. I don't know what gotten this deep into. I've always been a fan of forensics, investigative genetic genealogy, things like that. And I ended up joining this group after I saw the Netflix,

don't F with Katz documentary. And somebody I knew was actually in that and knew sort of socially my circles. And when this case broke, it was just for some reason it's like so many people, it just was like, whoa, what is going on here. And I saw the group founders on a new segment talking about it about a week after it happened. And so I joined the group thinking I was going to see a bunch of online sleuths digging in and finding all the facts. And that's not quite what I found. Yeah, for sure. Well, and it was chaos. Yeah. And Kristen, we've talked about this,

you know, this murder or these murders, I guess, multiple times on the show. Obviously, it was very shocking. And the University of Idaho murder case discussion group, that was a pretty popular group as far as just mainstream media, correct? Yes. The group founders, the administrators, Christina, Alina, they both were on News Nation and they've been interviewed many times just because there was just, it was such a big group and so much discussion and so many different things happened to the group. They actually, I don't know, a lot of people might know about the, um, the video, the surveillance video with Kaylee and Maddie and their friend Jack walking down the street and she's saying, what did you tell Adam or, you know, what did you say to Adam? And she said everything. And that video actually came from one of the group members who gave it to the admins to have to do what they would with it. And I believe they, I'm not sure exactly what the order was. And so don't quote me on this. But it went to the proper authorities, of course. And then they worked with them of whoever. it was who released it first or however that worked.

So that's how big this group was and how, I mean, they had, they did have some impact on the case, which was kind of interesting. But, and then of course the whole Papa Rogers thing was all in that group as well. But a lot of it, lots of rumors, lots of accusing innocent people and stuff. This group was much better, probably the best I would say, because I joined a few other groups just to see what they're about. And this group, they really tried to keep that at a minimum, the tax on innocent people and family and Daxing, they didn't allow any of that stuff, which was, which was really good.

Yeah. That made them a lot better. But even with 200,000 people, it's, you still got craziness. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you're always going to find those people. And even when we done our previous episodes, I mean, when we heard about, you know, some of the people that were speculating, maybe this was the murderer, maybe this was the murderer. You know, when no one knew it was Brian Koeberger at the time, we talked about at least

people's accusations on those people. what we always said on those shows is like, look, just because people are talking about it, you see this in video, we don't know if this guy is guilty or innocent. I mean, it may look like it's guilty without context or without even understanding, you know,

kind of how all that stuff works out. And I understand like the internet kind of blows stuff out of proportion. I do want to ask you, especially being a part of such a large group, and we're going to obviously get into on tonight's show, all the unselled documents or at least as much as we can. but what do you feel about like online sluice, right? Do you feel like that they are needed?

Do you think they do more benefit than bad, I guess you can say? Oh, boy. I'd have to say that I did not see a lot of benefit to it at all. I mean, most of what I saw, which was so frustrating, was just people would hear a rumor or somebody would speculate or some YouTuber or a TikToker. would make some claim. And it just kept getting repeated as fact.

And people like, well, I saw this turned into, you know, so-and-so said this, that turned into I saw this, turned into I read this, to into I heard this. And then people come on and say, well, this is what happened. It's like, no, that all started from a rumor. And, you know, it was so frustrating. And that's how I got mostly involved. Next thing I knew, I'm sitting here. I was creating fact check posts on rumors and stuff saying, no, this is a rumor.

And this came in this, this came from real official source, you know, to try to, you know, organize and get people to know what the facts were. And so I ended up doing a lot of deep dives on things and learning a lot of things about cell towers and how they work and stuff like that. And so when it came time to do, when these documents came out, there were a lot of things that I was really interested in to see what was, what was true of things that we had theorized about, things that were said that looked pretty clear that it was true,

but we didn't have confirmation, what stuff was debunked. I saw a lot of stuff in these documents about claims people made about innocent people that clearly are debunked now, like so-and-so got kicked out of the bar and was called creepy. It's like, well, all the documents tell us that's not true. You know, so I was kind of the person that, you know, when I did the deep dive, I just did a deep dive into these two. And I read every single one of them. I did not commit them to memory, but I've read every single one. Right.

But you were looking for the truth versus what was a rumor that people thought were fact. Yeah. Yeah. And now we're, I'm sorry, I was just going to say. And now we're seeing it with the documents themselves. Even in the group, I'm seeing posts come up and say, well, there's, there's, this is in the documents. And then you go and pull the document up and it doesn't even say that. Sometimes it's the exact opposite of what it's what they're claiming.

Okay. So, so one thing I want to get into first before we get into kind of the details, some of the reports. Papa Rogers, you had mentioned that in the beginning of this episode. And so Barbara Roger is what we've recently heard is, I guess there is no. evidence that Papa Roger was Brian Coburger. What do you have to say about that? I mean, have you looked into that pretty deeply? Oh, yeah. I have spreadsheets. I have screenshots. I have everything. Well, let me correct you on one thing, right? Right there is what they said about Papa Rogers. They said they did a deep dive and they researched it. And then the reporter said,

and it's not him, and he said, it's not him. And he said it a second time, it's not him. And so it's not that they couldn't find evidence. They didn't say, he didn't say, well, we didn't find evidence it was him. Well, a lot of people are saying that he wiped out all of his laptops and all of the evidence that could possibly be Papa Roger. And that's why people are saying, well, they just didn't find it because he deleted everything. Right.

And that matter. And that would only matter if he was Papa Roger. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, think about it. You can't, if, if Papa Roger was Joe Blow in, in, what is that, Carmel, Indiana, some people will get that reference. Some guy, you know, I think he's basically a middle-aged true crimeer in somewhere in the Midwest. And, but say if he, say he was, say he was in, he was just a guy named Joe in Carmel, Indiana.

the cops, what do Coburger's devices being wiped have to do with that? Coburger can't wipe Joe's devices. So what the police would have done would have gone to META and Facebook and said, we have this Papa Rogers account. Can you tell us what the IP address and email is associated with? And Facebook says, oh, it's Joe and Carmel, Indiana. So they, or whatever, they say Joe Smith at Google at gmail.com. So they look up Joe Smith at gmail.com, find out it's owned by Joe Smith in Carmel, Indiana.

They now know who Papa Roger is. So how does that have anything to do with Coburger wiping his devices? Yeah. So what you're saying, though, is that it is not Brian Coburger that was Papa Roger. Absolutely not. Because, I mean, they told us that. I mean, so you could say, okay, well, I don't believe the police. I feel like they, quote, unquote, lied about other things.

I don't believe really that either. I think there's some things that they didn't want us to know fairly about the investigation. But they said it's not him twice. So can you know. Now with the police thing, what is your thoughts to on when the murders first happened, the police came out in press conferences and they said, hey, there is no threat to the public whatsoever. This is targeted. Yeah. Although it sounds like they had no idea at that time who the murderer was.

Have you thought about that? Has the group talked about that before? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And first of all, I don't believe they ever said there is no threat to the community whatsoever. I don't believe that's the way they put it. I think that's the way people interpreted it and took it. They didn't believe there was an immediate threat like there is somebody on a rampage like they would be going through a mall or something, you know, that there's an immediate threat and he's on the run and we have to, because they felt that this house and somebody in the house was targeted. And they didn't get any other reports of any other house. houses being hit. There was people in the house who survived, so they clearly weren't the target. So it just reads from a law enforcement perspective of there's some specific people they were trying to get in this specific house because if they just were just targeting everybody in the house, the other two girls wouldn't have survived, you would think. And so that means it's that

those people, which if it was those people, that means it was that house. We don't have any other reports of any other houses having stabbings or anything like this. So it seems isolated to this location. So it doesn't seem like there's a threat to the greater, an ongoing, immediate, you know, shelter in place type threat. And I think being not very experienced with this kind of stuff, they just went about saying it all the wrong way. That's my personal opinion.

I don't think they ever came out and said, oh, you're all safe. Don't worry about it. You know, because they try to come out and say, and people call it backtracking. I think that's a very negative way to look at. to me, they were trying to clarify that we're not saying that it's not a bad thing, but there's a guy out there who kill people. Obviously, it is. What we're just trying to say is we don't believe that he's out there just targeting anybody

who just was walking down the street or whatever. But they did say be villagent. And, you know, if you're out there on the streets, make sure you're with our friend. Right. Show precaution in where you are on campus at this time because we don't have a suspect. So we're looking for him. But at this time. And we do feel like it was a targeted event.

Exactly. I mean, that to me, that just said to me that we feel that that they felt that that was, that house was the target. You know, like if you have a domestic dispute, they'll come out and say, you know, we think it was a domestic dispute. And he's this good person is not out and about or that that guy who was, that Travis, I can't think of his last name who sadly, you know, horribly killed his children. And, you know, he wasn't targeting random people in the park. Do you know what I mean? So they kind of knew that this is what that was a targeted thing as well. So it was, to me, that's where they're coming from.

People, I guess, who were a little more cynical were like, oh, they're backtracking. I'm not saying they didn't make a huge mistake in how they presented it. They should have said, we don't think it's, you know, we think that this was, but because he couldn't give answers of who was targeted or any of that kind of stuff. Right. But to me, it just made, it's just common sense that they didn't have everybody killed in the house. Right. And nobody's being killed anywhere else.

It just, it seems like if somebody targeted that house and they're not on a rampage through the city doing random stabbing that, you know, it just happened in that Walmart the other day. Well, it's just interesting to me because in the very beginning of the investigation, it sounded like, you know, Kaylee had told her parents that she felt like she has been, she was being watched. And this is even in the documents when she was walking Murphy outside, she felt like there's somebody out there. And that goes along with the lines of maybe somebody was targeting her in the beginning. But later, we find out that maybe Maddie was the main target. What is your take on that? I would not be surprised if he was lurking around the house at all. I have no clue whether it was Maddie or Kaylee.

It's longest time I thought it was Maddie and Zana. because I couldn't figure out why he would have gone to her room. You know, why would he go to her room? There's just, if coming down at the bottom of the stairs, he just needed to turn left and you get out the kitchen. Why did he go all the way across the house and down the hallway? You know, so I didn't understand that. You know, obviously now the police's theory is that she started to go upstairs

and it sounds like Dylan did hear sounds to that effect that somebody, she thought it was Kaylee who went upstairs, which made no sense because she thought she heard Kaylee dancing with the dog too. It's very, I mean, that poor kid was just so mixed up that. Dylan was just so mixed up that night. You know, I mean, between being exhausted and intoxicated and just scared and freaked out and not knowing what was going on, she didn't even, she thought she was imagining it half the time. She wasn't sure what was real, you know. Yeah.

shadow outside and and you know she told these stuff that was happening. Dylan said she came home when day and the door was open. Yeah. So, you know, Kaylee wasn't even there. So maybe the guy just happened to be out in the house and make Kaylee saw it because she was the one with the dog to go outside. It could easily have been Maddie who let the dog out because they kind of shared that duty.

So that doesn't really tell me that she was, that Kaylee herself was being. That's the target. Right. The target. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and there's so many things, too. I mean, even when you hear that where she's saying, hey, I feel like I'm being watched.

I feel like that someone's fall on me. And oftentimes, I mean, this stuff can amount to something big, which it seems like maybe it did in this case. And even as we talked about, we talked about our podcasts earlier, all the episodes where we're talking about the animal killings before the Idaho murders. Like the dog that was found skinned and fillet, that was on October 21st. So it was about three weeks before the actual murders. and that was in the rural area of Lataw County. And so it was a 12-year-old miniature Australian shepherd named Buddy. And the dog was found skinned head to tell with the fur and meat removed like they were filet and a fish.

There was no blood at the scene and the animal was not eaten. The owner, Pam and Jim Colbert, the owners told the media that they had no enemies and were shocked by the cruelty. Laetaw County Sheriff's Office confirmed the incident saying the attack appeared to be intentional. They did not publicly link it to the Idaho student murders, but acknowledge it was very disturbing. And then you also had multiple cats reported mutilated or missing from October to early November of 2022. Have any of you guys talked about any of that? Because that seems very disturbing and very random and very weird. Yeah, I hadn't heard about the cats.

But I kind of dismissed most of that. Anyhow, as far as the dog, I remember them coming out and saying at one point that it was not related in one of the statements they issued during the course of the investigation. before they were investigating Colberger. At this point, I would feel that Colberger might have done that stuff back in Pennsylvania when he was younger. But I think he's past that point. I think he had gone to the next step. I don't think within a month ahead of time, he was wasting his time with a random dog out in the middle of nowhere. I mean, he was not familiar with the area.

He hadn't moved there since he moved there in the middle of June. So I don't, in all honesty, it sounds like they might have a very disturbed teenagers somewhere around that area that they should probably be keeping an eye on. But I do not think it would have been Colberger. He was already moved on to the next stage of his evolution, I believe, as a budding serial killer. I believe wholeheartedly he would have gone on to do it again if he hadn't gotten caught. Yeah. Yeah, I disagree with that.

But I think, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that. you know you're wrong i'm just saying that very weird in some random county latol you know idao that you know three weeks before there's a dog skin fillate and put back on the property of someone's house just weird and especially considering the filleting of that which means it's obviously a knife that did this and then the knife that led into the murders i maybe maybe we'll know maybe brian coberger eventually speaks now to that theory do you think brian coburger will ever speak. Like, do you think that he's going to have a book deal or any of this stuff?

And I know that you can't technically profit once you're in prison, I guess. But do you think that he's going to eventually talk about the motive and why he did it or any of that? I think you will. Yeah. I think he is going to be one of those that just likes to brag about it. And he is probably chomping at the bit. I mean, I was actually kind of surprised that he didn't say anything at the sense. sentencing, but then when he did say what he said about I respectfully decline, I was like,

okay, yeah, that, that fits too. Yeah. So I was not, I can't say I was surprised either way, but I just feel like a lot of the people are, I believe he's a psychopath. I believe he's a narcissist. And I don't know if I buy the whole in-cell thing and thinking that guy is his, that Rogers guy, Elliot Rogers' his hero and stuff. I mean, there's not really, they found a lot of stuff about Ted Bundy, but not about

Elliot Rogers. So I don't think, I don't know if I buy that yet. I'm not dismissing it, but I do feel that he had rage against women. And that was clear, I do believe that he, that even if he didn't do any kind of assault, that, you know what I mean. Like a sexual assault. Yeah, sexual assault, that he didn't do. that, I believe that there was a component to it, sort of like with BTK, where he did all that.

He didn't actually sexually assault anybody, but it definitely all went back to that. He went home with his trophies, and that's when the sexual part kicked it. And I think I don't see just an I hate women thing out of this. I really don't. I feel like that reminds me, and I know we didn't talk about this earlier, but I want to ask you, There was a portion, I think, I don't know what show it was on, but that they had found other student IDs in his closet that were women's IDs. Was there anything about that in the files? No.

No, he, there were, they found IDs. But anybody who's saying who the IDs belong to, if they say it's a student or they know who it belongs to, that's not true. that there's it's never been disclosed it just says IDs in the in the in the initial documents that we got after the arrest with the search for it said um IDs in a glove in a box I believe right um and then our ID cards and then in the documents I did see IDs and it did not say student IDs it did not say it was Colberger's IDs it did not say it did not say whose IDs it was so anybody making that claim that that's just not true okay all right so and i want to go ahead and say this before we get into kind of some of the details we're not going to go crazy into all of the

extensive graphic stuff but we will kind of talk about what some of the reports say at least and right um and so i want to let everybody know if you have kids or any of that stuff they don't want to hear this stuff please turn them away now you know even though we're not going to get crazy graphic just talking about stabbings and all that can be upsetting obviously to even adults but I want to go into the timeline of the night of November 13th 2022 which in that year November 13th is my birthday so this happened on my birthday and so when we first heard about this it was my birthday night I think we heard about it probably the next day yeah it's the next morning next morning yeah we had done some podcast in the days preceding that as we kind of started finding out more information

but, you know, obviously this happened between they're saying 4 and 425 a.m. There is phone and app data that shows Zana Kronoto active on TikTok at 412 with a door dash delivery around 4 a.m. Surviving roommate Dylan Mortison heard commotion, a scream, crying, a male voice saying, I'm going to help you. She then saw a mask man walk past door before he fled out the sliding glass door. She froze and only later locked herself in the room. Now, I want to start here before we get into the detail. of what some of the unsold documents say. As far as Dylan and the surviving roommates, you know, she sees this commotion or

hears this commotion. I'm here to help you, you know, is 4 a.m. somewhere around this time. And she, obviously, we know now they did not call 9-1 until what 11 a.m. the next morning, so some eight hours later. Why do you think Brian Coburger chose not to kill the surviving roommates, which were two surviving roommates and he did end up killing four. Do you think that was because he was just exhausted or did he actually see her? Yeah, or did he see her.

But I think he did because it sounded like, I mean, it sounded like they're like face to face. Yeah, and Kristen, you can confirm or deny or whatever. But do you think Brian Koeberger saw Dylan or the other? What's the other? Bethany. Yeah, Bethany. But she looked out her door three times, you know, trying to figure out what was going on

out there. And, you know, when you. look at the text between Bethany and Dylan, Bethany is saying, oh, well, you know, Zana wasn't all black. She's like, Dylan was like, oh, no, this person has a mask on. This is not Zana. This is somebody else.

Like, there's something very wrong going on right now. Yeah. She was freaked out. Why do you think Brian maybe spared those two? I don't think he knew that Bethany was downstairs. I do believe his, for lack of a better word, Target was on the third floor because he clearly walked in the back door and went straight upstairs based on the time, the timeline. A lot of people think he was in there like 15 minutes because of, or even 20 minutes, wait, 404, because in the earlier documents in the probable cause affidavit, it said that his car was seen at 404 and then spent away at 420. The thing is, is that if you read the more detailed documents, he did not park until close to 408.

And so really, he got in there just somewhere around 408, 409, no sooner than 408. And Dylan was already talking to Bethany on the phone at 419 and 7 seconds, I want to say it was. So, and she talked to her after she saw him leave. and we know that the commotion on the neighbor's camera was heard at 417. So sometime between 417 and 419 is when he left, got to his car, and it sped off, and then it was seen by the neighbor's camera at 420. So really he was in there about 8 to 9 minutes, if you think about it. And that's just crazy.

Could you imagine 8 to 9 minutes and you kill 4 people? Yeah. But, I mean, if you think about it too, I mean, I am in Wisconsin and we had the Apple River stabbing recently and he stabbed I think four or five people disemboweling excuse me sorry graphic one of them and killing another one

in less than a minute so I mean if you think about it it takes one second to stab somebody which means it takes 50 seconds to stab somebody 50 times he had on average about 2.25 minutes

with each person yeah So think about how much time that is. Yeah. So then you figure in a little bit more with one. I mean, I think Maddie was, you know, poor girl was never really had much of a chance to wake up. She had one slash on her arm and I believe something across her face. But otherwise, I think she was gone very quickly.

And then there was a longer fight, a longer fight with Kaylee. We know that Colberger was not downstairs before 412 because Zana was on the phone. watching TikTok, and then the commotion started. So sometime between 412 and 417 is when he ended up in Zana's room. I also don't think he was in there very long. My guess is he, after the fight with Kaylee, listened to see if anybody was coming or heard anything, and that's when Zana started to come up.

And that's when he went down and started chaser, which I think is going to be closer to that 417 point, because I think if the fight with Zana had been super long, Ethan would have woken up. And by all indications, he didn't even have a chance to get out of bed. So he may have woken up enough to sort of turn and try to escape the attack for a second, but he was so mortally wounded with his neck and everything. And so and then also just everybody knows that report from the Dateline episode

that there's indication that he sat down in Zana's chair. which I thought hysterically, it was hysterical that everybody was saying, oh, he left a bloody butt print. I'm like, why is everybody thinking he had blood on his rear end? It was probably arm prints and handprints on the arms of the chair, not on the feet. I don't know why everybody immediately went to butt print. But Bill Thompson, I think it was on an interview said that's not true. There was no imprint left on the chair. There was no indication that he sat in the chair.

So he didn't sit for long, right? So I think, I don't know if he was really all that tired, way they say obviously is going to be somewhat tired. You also have the visual snow thing. Yeah. And then as you're walking through the part of the house and coming from Zana's room and going through the living room and to that center hallway, right to the right of the doorway into the hallway is that good vibe sign.

Yeah. So now you've got a bright sign right to your right. And right in front of you is a dark hallway with no way. windows. You also have a step down right there. Okay. And there was porch lights on on the porch out on the patio outside the kitchen. Okay. Which was shining light into, would have shine light into the kitchen, right? So as he's coming through that living room into that center hallway, he has to, his eyes likely darted to his right towards that kitchen, that light coming through the kitchen. And he was partially, I don't want to say blinded, but the light from the good vibe sign, his eyes wouldn't have had a chance to really adjust to see into that dark hallway, which if you watch

the TikTok from Zana and Kaley and everybody were pretending to be the other roommates, Zana walks through from the kitchen in that hallway into the living room and steps up. It takes her about three steps. So Kohlberger would have gotten through that hall at about two steps, if even. Like in less than a second. So think of this. You've got the light from the good vibe sign. You've got visual snow. You've got to look down to watch for that step.

And you're looking to your right because your escape is that light in the kitchen area. You're not looking to your left where somebody's cracked open the door and is looking at you. Yeah. In the most shaded corner. So no, I don't think he saw her. All that to say, no, I don't think he saw her. Yeah. No.

And to your point. I agree. I don't think he saw her either. Yeah. And to your point to this. And I want to let everybody know. to, I mean, there's going to be a lot of people that know this case, you know, like the back of their hand. But when you look at this house, King Roadhouse, you know, from a law enforcement

perspective, like if you were a SWAT team or whoever that was going to go in and you were going to hit this house for whatever reason, this is a tactical nightmare house. And there's reasons for this because this house is oddly laid out. I mean, it is a split level house. You have a bottom basement type floor or a. split level type floor you also have a first floor and then you have a third floor which was added on later it didn't used to be that that uh they actually added on that top floor at a later date so it used to actually only be the the uh the ground level floor which is technically where i guess the the top

yeah yeah yeah and then you had the split level where dylan and say no was but that also leads to the question of did and was bryan koberger spying and looking into this house previous um to the attacks because, you know, someone that kind of walks through goes into this house seems to be targeting one person. I want to get to that in a second. Who do we think that he was targeting for people that don't know? At least what people believe, Kristen. I would say it's probably people's opinions that I see online.

I would say it's what is it at now? Maybe 60-40 for Maddie being the person. and 40 to Kaley. It used to be the other way around. It used to be because, you know, Mr. Consolves was talking so much about Kaylee's wounds and everything that I think a lot of people felt that it was Kaylee

that because she had, her attack was so much more vicious. And then other people were like, well, she could have woken up during Maddie's attack and then had a chance to fight, which would also explain the added wounds, which hers were just so much more severe than I ever even,

I wouldn't have even thought, It's horrible. But I would say more people because of what law enforcement has said that they believe that Maddie was the target. And it does make sense. I mean, both Maddie and Kaylee's rooms were on the back side. Windows were on the back side of the house. Kaylee had a small one on the third floor that faced the front. But I don't think you'd get a very good view in that.

And her sliding doors were sort of pointed southwest. And then Maddie's window was right next to that driveway. There was no windows on the sides of the house. But hers was faced the back. What her pink bits for? Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to get, yeah, say.

And in her window, there was her signature pink cowboy boots were sitting there. And one of those decorative M cut out M things that said M that was also pink. And so it's pretty clear. And, you know, some people have told stories. And, you know, I, this is this is. nothing in the official documents but have said that she didn't really close her windows, her blinds or anything, so you could see in very easily if you were back in that back parking lot.

And we got to remember, too, that Kaylee had actually moved out of the house prior to this murder or this, you know, these four murders. She was not even living there. And the only reason she was up there that weekend was to show Maddie her new car and to go celebrate and go to the football games or whatever they were going to do and go to the, you know, the bar and just have fun with her friends. But she had already moved out of the house, which leads me to believe that was more Maddie and not Kaylee.

Okay, I have to correct you on that one. Maddie was, or Kaylee was actually not moved out of the house yet. She was, she had been staying at her parents. Right. Occasionally. But, and she had started packing up her things, but her bed was still in there. her desk was still in there I mean because in the documents yeah her bed was unmade that night it was the blankets yeah but her bed was there and the blank

she wasn't moved out she was there a lot she hadn't been there as much from my understanding but there really wasn't any she hadn't fully moved out there was her desk was there her the dog kennel was there her bed and her linens were there so so she wasn't what most people would be consider moved out she had been staying more from my understanding she'd been saying more and more her parents. But I don't think unless you were in her social circles, you would have any, there was no external indication that she was not planning on being there much longer. Put it that way. So he really wouldn't have known that she had.

Right. So that's why you can't really say that that's why he was. There's just no way he would have known that, I don't think. Yeah. Because I don't think she made any announcements on social media or anything saying, I've moved out. or, you know, so nobody really knew that except for her very inner circle that she was planning. I'm going to Texas. Yeah.

So I think, I don't know, it's hard for me. I'm leaning towards Maddie, I guess. You know, it's a big mystery as to, you know, with the dog. Because when the documents tell us that the, when the officer got there that Kaylee's door was open, you're going to see a lot of people saying, but it was closed and he had to open the door. No indication. The officer Smith and Nunes both say the door was open. And who was it, Gundersen?

I don't have his name off the top of my head. But the other guy who, yeah, that's him. I think it was his document, his statement where he says he got there and he saw the dog on the bed. Right. And he instructed, I want to say their Nunes or Smith to close the door so the dog would not tamper with the evidence. Yeah. Yeah.

And get in the way. So the door was open. There was a kennel in her room. That was in, I noticed that in the documents. That was in the inventory list or the evidence list. So she did have a kennel because some people claimed she had a kennel, but I hadn't seen any proof of that. Now I have seen proof that there was a kennel in there. I don't know why he wasn't, Murphy wasn't in the kennel.

Who knows? But by that point, he was on the bed. We know when the officer got there. So then they closed a door. And then the, I don't have. I don't remember, I was Gunderson. It was the other one. There's another one whose name is not coming to you right now.

Then after everything was done, he came back in and Murphy, he found Murphy under Kaylee's desk. Right. And so he picked him up and he said there was no observable injuries or stain. He just, he said injuries or staining. Mm-hmm. Okay. To be very specific. He didn't say blood, which he found surprising would have found, you know, he would found it hard to believe that that would be the case if he,

he had contaminated the scene, if he had been in any of those rooms. So I can't really get on board with that being conclusive that Murphy didn't have anything on him because eight hours had passed and he could have gotten a little bit on his paws that flaked off. He could have, I mean, he didn't leave Prince anywhere, but just because something wasn't readily observable, and from what I can tell, they did no photographs, I think they even said no photographs were taken. But you could see him on the body cam and that no swabs were taken or anything. So he was never really tested. So not that it matters.

That's just one of those little technical things that my brain decides to like focus on. But they didn't know, they didn't see, they didn't know anything that in the crime scene to indicate that Murphy had been walking through it. But they really can't say for sure. I don't think that. I don't think that's conclusive to say, why didn't observe anything on him eight hours after? after this. So you know, you can't really say that. And I do want to say too, like there's a lot of people and we've had, you know,

being in law, I have been in law enforcement in the past and all that stuff. A lot of the guys that have had to deal with this crime scene. I want to point this out because, you know, we, we have law enforcement on the podcast quite a bit and whatever. The, the toll that this scene that they had to deal with is going to take on them for the rest of their lives. They're never going to get over this. I mean, without question.

And that's something that, you know, we do want to say because it's like everybody always speculates and says stuff about, you know, hey, did these guys do the right job or did they do it correctly or did they investigate it right or did they say the right things in a press conference? But, you know, you actually have to have people that have to deal with this and this, you know, brutal murder and especially young kids that are in college. I just want to point that out, you know, as you're talking about, you know, some of the officer that we're talking about this and that. And just imagine what kind of they're going through in their heads.

as they're trying to document and write down stuff and figure all this out with this brutal scene. But I do want to get into some of the files. Zana Karnodal, we know that she was active on TikTok at 412 a.m. So if we know that the murders happen, what they say, between 4 and 425 a.m., if you go to the first documents where it talks about Zana, where she suffered over 50 stab wounds, many defensive including major strikes at the heart and lung. the struggle in her room was considered prolong and violent. So that kind of makes sense, right?

If you ordered DoorDash at, what was it, 412 a.m. And they believe that the- No, no, no. The DoorDash arrived at about 359. 359. Okay. Yeah, and it was delivered at about 359, 4 o'clock. So right, approximately 4 o'clock. Based on some of the audio from the Linda Lane video,

it sounds like the DoorDash driver got out of her cart, 3.59 in some seconds. And left a little bit around four. And then in the documents it says was delivered approximately 4 o'clock was her food is when that was delivered. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was active on TikTok at 412.

Okay. Correct. That's the 412. Yeah, 4.12 a.m. and then delivered at 4 a.m. And then obviously, if you're saying that the murders happened from 4 to 425 and the documents and Zana had 50 stab wounds, you know, heart and long and they seemed like it was prolonged, obviously Zana encountered Brian Koberger and it seemed like she was awake and she likely had a fight on her hands.

Is that the consensus of what you guys have taken from these documents? I think that's what a lot of people believe. Yeah. I mean, and that's obviously what the police believe as well. I've seen some people saying that, and I have not seen this in the documents, that there was something in the document saying that Zana, her Apple phone showed that her iPhone showed that she had changed levels. and that there was blood in the hallway upstairs. I have not seen that anywhere that talking about her. And then I've also seen that she was wearing her Apple Watch.

I have not seen that. I didn't have a chance to go through all of the evidence that was logged in, but there was an Apple Watch for Kaylee because Mr. Gonzalez found the Apple Watch in a box of belongings that were returned to the family, which if Kaylee had been wearing hers, it would be in an evidence locker because it would be on that list of things that were taken from her body.

I have to go back and look at it again. I was just looking at that one too about listing the stuff that was with Zana when they took it off. But realistically, between four, he wouldn't have been down there before 412 and he was out

and the noise from the neighbor's house started at 417. and he was out of the house. He had already passed Dylan by 419. So between 412 and 419, so that's 7 minutes. We don't know how long after 412 he was in there. But if you think about it, remember what I said about 50 seconds for 50 stab ones. Yeah.

Even if he was only in there from 416 to 418, that's an eternity. If you just stop and don't do. me anything for two straight minutes and think about what could be happening. Yeah. Two minutes. And so Zana, so Zana, just for everyone that is, you know, listening to the podcast, they don't know about this. Zana was Ethan's girlfriend, correct?

Correct. Okay. So Zana was up. And a roommate. She lived there. Yeah. Ethan did not live there. Ethan did not live there, but he stayed there a lot, right?

Correct. Yeah. So, so where was Zana do we think or do we know, I guess, from the files? Where was Zana found? In her bedroom. she was on the floor okay when you when you come up

through the front door and you turn to your left and you go up the stairs and that puts you in the living room and then you turn to your right and you go back along there's like a half wall that kind of

keeps you from falling into the stairwell and then you keep walking down and then on your left is a bathroom and straight ahead of you in the hallway is Zana's bedroom door and her door well when Hunter Johnson the friend got there

he said the door was partially open. And then he went in, so the door was fully open by the time the police came. And so as the police were walking down that hallway, they could see Zana from where they were standing out in the hallway or living room. And she was her, from my understanding, she was face up and her feet were pointed towards the door. She was right in front of the door, basically, on the floor, on her back, looking at the

ceiling with her head. on the opposite side and her feet like pointed at the door. And then Ethan was to the, as you were looking at the door to the left, you go around the corner where her bed was, the head of her bed, I believe was on that west wall, the same wall that Zana's head was pointed out. As you're facing into Zana's room, you're looking west. Right.

And so on that west wall, that far west wall on her bedroom was also her bed. And Ethan was there. and his head was not visible. It was like down between the wall and the bed, which I think would put it right along that back wall where later on that picture was taken, that kind of infamous picture of where it looked like blood was seeping outside. Yeah. Yeah. And so to that point, too, and that's why I wanted to talk about Zana.

Obviously, she is the girlfriend of Ethan. And as you said, he was found partly off Zana's bed, likely attacked while asleep, they think. Right. So fatal stab wound to his neck, juggler, arteria blood spray visible on the wall and floor. That's the picture you're talking about. If anybody seen the picture of the kind of blood seeping down through the actual brick out of like outside the house. Yeah. There were fewer defensive wounds suggest he was overwhelmed before waking. But like how does this go in this room though, right?

So if you have Ethan here and you have Zana, it seems like she fought, she was probably awake from what we from what we believe. did he attack Zana first or did he attack Ethan first? Because to me it would seem maybe he would want to attack the guy first, even if he was passed out. He is passed out. But you're going to attack the girl. Maybe he wouldn't wake up to this, right? But what is the consensus on that?

There is no consensus on that. It's, I mean, the police appear to believe that, you know, Zana had heard the noises upstairs just like Dylan did, had started to go upstairs. I'm not sure that we have heard, you know, in one of, in one of,

Dylan's statements are all over the place. And I don't, and that's to be understanding. Right. Totally understandable. As memories came back and things like that, but one of her first ones to Officer Nunes, um,

on the scene when he talked to her, she said that she heard Kaylee scream, Kaley scream and announced that there was, somebody inside the residence and that she heard Kaylee run down from the third floor and basically into Zana's room. Well, obviously that makes no sense. Why would Kaylee run into Zana's room? You know, so police and the general consensus is that by that, that it's Zana who said, maybe started to walk upstairs and said somebody's here. I don't, Kaylee probably screamed. And then Zana came over because she heard the scream too. And then she was the one who ran down from the

floor from the third floor and ran into her bedroom. And then Dylan said that in this, this is the very first. This is like the, and I don't even know, she might still have been not fully recovered from, you know, the night before the drinking and stuff like that at this point. You know, she didn't get very much sleep. But she says that, um, so she locked herself in her bedroom and then she continued to hear commotion. She said eventually she, uh, stopped hearing a struggling heard a male voice say, and this is very different from what we heard originally, you're going to be fine. Yeah.

Instead of, I'm going to help you. Instead of, it's okay. You're going to be fine. And she did not recognize the male's voice. And she said it was not said in a nice way, basically. And so, okay, so why at what point? And people are like, why would you say that? You know, it's like, maybe that was Ethan saying it.

It's like, no, no. It was definitely him because Dylan would have recognized Ethan's voice, I'm sure. And so what could have happened. Well, first of all, like people pointed out, Ethan was probably just as drunk as everybody else. You know, they've been partying all night, you know, doing what college kids do. Right. And so he may have, and this is one reason why I think that the fight with Zana, even though it was fierce and there was a lot happening that a lot of damage can be done. But if you watch, again, if you watch the video from the Apple River stabbing, a lot of damage can be done in an extremely short time. I don't think people don't understand the disc.

They can't, they think like, he had to be in there an hour to do that. No, he just didn't. I mean, again, look at the guy at Walmart just recently, you know, in, where was that? Michigan. Yeah, yeah, Michigan. And so you look at that.

So that fight was Zana, you know, the noise that you heard, like the sort of this, this kind of could be a scream. And then the loud thud and, you know, the voices and stuff. I mean, it could have happened so fast. that what could have happened is Zana was on the ground. Like he attacked her at first and then saw that Ethan was starting to move or whatever and went over and attacked him,

which could be if Ethan could have been sleeping on his stomach and he stabbed his legs first. I mean, there was so many crazy. There was rumors that, you know, his legs were cut all the way up to the groin and all this ever kind of stuff. Well, none of that is there. I did not see anything in the new documents that said anything. other than there was blood on his leg or there were cuts to his leg. I didn't see anything besides that, like what's been in the news report. But he could have, I just, in the heat of the moment, I don't see Colberger after already

having attacked three people, having the wherewithal the mindset to go, oh, I should go for his Achilles, I just don't think he did that. I think he probably got him in the neck, whatever, and the legs maybe Ethan was kicking, who knows. And that's when he turned. And once he saw that Ethan was incapacitated, he turned back to Zana and said, you're going to be fine. I'm going to help you. And then just went back and attacked her again.

That kind of makes sense to me. I don't think because I think if there had been a real long fight before Ethan woke up, how did he get, you know, I just, even have a chance to wake up. That tells me that what happened was Zana was quick. And then it may be more of a fight afterwards. Yeah. And to your point, I mean, there's been so many people that, I mean, I've seen videos on social media. and, you know, for people that don't understand, like, how brutal stab wounds can be, you have to

understand a couple of things. Number one, law enforcement, for example, they have bulletproof vest. They're still working on technology for stab proofest. It is not, I mean, it is not easy to create a vest that is stab proof. And so when law enforcement encounters people with knives, they in often cases, will take that, if not more serious in some cases than they do weapons or guns or whatever i mean it's it's all equal the same right it's because that can kill you very fast you you hit the wrong artery or the or i guess the right artery if you're the attacker right that that gets you incapacized very quick and especially

with juggler veins stuff like this as soon as you hit a vein where you're leaking blood pretty quickly and it's not getting too graphic but you start having a head rush just like you would feel like you're going to pass out or any of these things so you're not going to be in the right mindset to be able to fend off attacks, especially if you're asleep, you're drunk. And then also keep it in mind, when you are drinking alcohol, your blood is much thinner. You're going to bleed a lot faster. It's just, it was, it was the, it was the worst case scenario for the victims and the best case scenario for the attacker. And I, and I feel, not to enter, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just want to say this. I know it seems so weird to be

talking and it's kind of like morbid and gruesome to be talking about these things. But there's been so much speculation, so many questions like blaming them somehow and not believing things because of this whole thing. It can't have been Colberger. He had to be. There's no way he could have been working alone. And if you don't know these things, if you don't think about these things and talk about these things, those sort of conspiracy type theories can, you know, persist because they just don't understand the facts. And so they said, well, there's no way he could have done it all by himself in 15. minutes. It's like he had, he could have done it all by himself in five minutes. I don't understand why people, but because people just don't understand that the type of damage this can do. And yeah, it's, I think it's important to know that. Yeah. And you think about the adrenaline he was going through at the time. You are like outside your own body when you're doing these kind of things. Yeah. Obviously he was. Yeah. I mean, and when you're when you're doing this yeah, you're going to have you're going to have this extra human strength. You're doing something you've never done before.

and it is the most crazy psycho thing you've ever done. But this is what potentially fueled Brian Koberger. This was the one thing that he had been leading up to maybe. I mean, we don't know, but he didn't just randomly come up with this one night. I don't think. I mean, I think this was very premeditated. I think it was months in advance. But I think even still, no matter how much you prepare yourself to do some heinous act like this,

in the moment, it is going to be different. You can prepare yourself no matter what through extensive amounts of training or or thought processes, whether it's fire department law enforcement to repair yourself for things that you are going to see or have to interact with. But until you're in the moment, you don't actually know how your body's going to react. And likely his body reacted in this massive adrenaline rush. And, you know, that's going to give him this extra human strength in some degree. And we don't even know.

I don't know. Have they done, by the way, any drug testing on him? Like, and obviously they did not catch him for, you know, a while after. but I would be curious to know if he was on any type of drugs during this night. That would also be interesting. Has anybody ever speculated that? That's been speculated. I did not come across.

There's a lot of evidence in there listed as far as swabs and blood drawn and stuff like that, but they're not, they don't specify whose it was when they did it. So I can't say, oh, that's where they drew blood from him. I mean, we know they took multiple swabs and stuff from him in Pennsylvania because they wanted to test his DNA and everything. I would be surprised if they bothered with a drug test because, I mean, this is now weeks and weeks after, but they may have just because of the heroin problem he had earlier in life, but he seems as like he had been clean for a long time.

So I don't know, I have not been able to like put myself in the shoes of the killer like you just did in that sense. But I see what you're saying. I mean, I do think that at the end, I do not think that Zana and Ethan were expected. And I think he probably was a little freaked out after that. I don't think that was his plan at all. I'm surprised he even chased Zana into another room. I don't know why he, because even if Zana went upstairs and I still, so I'm not 100% convinced that that's the way it's happened.

But I'm not going to, the cops have seen the evidence that I have. have not seen and there's nothing. But I just, and it does sound like Dylan heard somebody going up the stairs and come running back down the stairs. But I just, I just can't imagine if his goal was somebody on that third floor and Zana had made it into her bedroom and he was wearing a mask, the best thing to do when he hit the bottom of those stairs would be to turn left and book it out of those, that sliding door. Yeah.

Why take the risk of running? Because now he's got, because he's ultimately a coward. That's the way I see him because he chose victims who he knew were going to be extremely vulnerable. Even if they hadn't been drinking, it's the middle of the night and he knew he was going to catch them in their bed completely by surprise. And so he's just an absolute coward. And so he didn't go in there with bravado and it's not like somebody who walks into a Walmart or, you know, like with that type of thing that. that, you know, it's different kind of crazy. But you know what I'm saying?

He went into the cover of dark with the most vulnerable next to children, the second most vulnerable thing he could find, which was a sleeping girl. And it just seems like I just, it surprises me that when Zana, Zana surprised, I don't know why I just said Zana. When Zana surprised him, if that's what happened, that he just didn't freak out and run,

that he chased her to her room. I mean, to me, that shows like almost a switch of personality. And I don't know, maybe he was so blinded with rage in finding Kaylee in Maddie's room that just in blind rage he was just slashing out at everything. And that's how Zana ended up getting chased instead of him just running. Obviously, I'm just throwing that out there. But you know what I mean? And then that blind rage. And then by the time, and then Ethan on top of everything else.

And so by the time he's leaving, he's just, I don't think he's. saw Dylan and said, I'm just too tired. I think he was probably exhausted. The adrenaline's pounding. He probably had a headache at that point. I mean, just all the things that happened. And he's like, now I got to get out of here. Yeah.

The cowardliness kicked back in. And yeah, so by the way, so Kaylee and Madison were in each other's rooms, right? They were in Maddie's room. Yeah, Maddie's room. In Maddie's room. Yeah. So Kaylee received 30 plus stab wounds, including severe facial trauma that rendered her nearly unrecognizable, which is kind of gravest.

Yeah, and I want to talk about that for just a second, Kristen. You know, there's a lot of people and even Kaylee's sister asked, what was the second weapon? Do you think there was a second weapon? Yeah, because and what Sherry's asking here is, as this says, I mean, her face was nearly unrecognizable. Investigators first couldn't discern injuries due to extensive blood flow. Like, why was, you know, the question is, why was Kaylee so besides the 30 plus stab wounds? but there was obviously also another faction of this.

It wasn't just stab wounds. It was a beating, which is crazy. Which also, like, if you think about that, like crime of passion type stuff. Right. But if Kaylee is anything like me, you know, she's going to fight back and probably call him on and tell him, you, mother, whatever, whatever. And I'm sure she was fighting him. And by the way, her sister's testimony or her witness or her impact statement in court on you know the on the day of what's it sentencing right yeah so the impact statements you know Kaylee's

sister stood up at the very end she said if Kaylee would have been awake she would have kicked your motherfucking ass or whatever something like that absolutely so so that might lead you to probably you know if Kaylee did wake up then she was going to fight yeah but do you think there was a second weapon first of all I just props to Olivia and we love her and she's actually in another group that I'm in and we just support her all the way and the family and she just did amazing she just hit the ground running when this all happened and help find like the the grub truck video and the the video on at one one one two king road you know just just and christian actually before you answered a question I ask you can you can you can you just say something

about that family like how much they really went to bat for their kid and media and everything. And listen, there were at times that, you know, the media or people or consensus. They went against them. Yeah, they went against whoever because they were not a part of like, hey, we're just going to go along with whatever the prosecutors are going to do, whatever the court's going to do. They were fighting for their daughter, the one that was murdered, which I think is the most commendable thing we've seen throughout this entire process.

And obviously, we know, or at least from what most people were saying, that, you know, there were some families that were okay with a plea bargain and there were other families that were not. but can you just talk about for a second before you get into the Kaylee and Madison thing like about how you know the family really just I mean I think Kaylee's family they were proactive yeah they were they were out there probably more than anybody was well I mean I'm going to preface this with that everybody deals with grief and trauma and death in a family like this differently and there's no right way to do it or

way to do it. And, you know, for example, Ethan's family have started a foundation and they started the tulip thing and they have, they have, I think, as well as all the other families handled with dignity and grace. And yes, they may have decided, I mean, we don't know what they were talking about in private, but they put on a very reserved public face. And, you know, Maddie's dad, I mean, it just breaks my heart to see him every single time because he just looks so broken sometimes. I think it was Zana's mom. No, it's a Maddie's mom or Zana's mom?

Zana's mom was having a lot of problems and she has embraced religion and it seems to be really turning her life around. I mean, they've all chosen their ways of honoring their loved one who they lost and their way of, memorializing them. And some people are fighters and some people are, I don't know what you'd say. That's not even a good analogy. I don't want to say that. But you know what you're saying. But you know what I'm saying. So, so the Gonzalez is, they're angry. They were pissed off. And that's one

perfectly valid response to this. And they were questioning everything. And, you know, and I don't know if they've had experience with law enforcement in the past or not. I mean, I had one experience myself that I was involved where I was a victim of a robbery homicide and my friend was killed with, you know, next to me. And I, I didn't know what to do. I had, you know, I, I, I just went along with whatever the police said and, you know, waited to hear and all that other kind of stuff because I didn't know any other way. Well, having gone through that now, if something like that ever had, you know, happened again, you can bet that I would handle it completely different. I am older, you know, and I'm just a lot feistery in my old age, I guess, you know, in middle age. But so, so I don't know

if maybe the good silverses have had dealings before where they're just like, no, no, no, we're not going to sit back. We're going to be, you know, kind of in your face about this type of stuff. And so, and they were. And you know what? More power to them. That's the way to do. But I can't say that's the right way to do it or the proper way to do it because everybody handles their grief. and going through that kind of process completely differently. And you can't say how you're going to do it until you actually go through it. I wouldn't be surprised if they surprised themselves sometimes. You know, like, why?

We really did that, you know. But just the, yeah, the gumption of Olivia. I mean, I just, that girl, I was so impressed with her. But I just hope that she's not holding too much in that dad's a lot more vocal about it. And yes, she let loose on stuff, but it was so common measured the way she did it. I was a little worried about that. I was like, I hope she's not holding it in too much. I hope she's talking to somebody and being able to vent.

And she's not trying to be strong for everybody. Do you know what I mean? Because that can cause you trouble too. But yeah, those sentencing, those victim impact statements were just something else. And then by the same token, you know, I think it was Maddie's grammar or Zana's grandma. Yeah, wanted to speak to him. Yeah, who said, I forgive you. Yeah. And so, but she also got a little dig in there about, you know, true love, who was her real true love. But I think it was Maddie's grandma then because she, I think it was Jake. She said was her true love. Right. So she got her own

little dig in there too. You know, so everybody handles it differently. But yeah, they, they were to beholden. I think that's going to be something that people will point to for a long time. And it was impressive. I think that's why people want to be. I don't know. I just like I said, I just hope that she's not, she was just so calm and measured in the way she did it. And she's very articulate too, which it was just amazing. And so I definitely couldn't have done that. I would have been, my voice would have been quivering. I would have been just a nervous wreck. So the way she did that, I mean, it's just the strength, the sheer strength, sheer force of will you could feel coming through that TV screen, you know. Right. And, but I just like I said, it was afterwards, I thought about it some more.

And I was just a little bit, I hope that she's not trying to hold too much in and to try and, you know, be the strength for everybody else because she needs to take care of herself too. Yeah. And getting back to her statement where she asked Brian, what was the second weapon you used on my sister? Do you think he used a second weapon? Or do you think it was the one weapon he had? I believe, I mean, without having seen what the actual, and I don't want to see it, I'd rather, I mean, I'd rather get a description of some kind, you know, but without having somebody said, yeah, you know, this is exactly what it looks like, because they said something rounded and something with some kind of stripes or grooves that were in a striped pattern were on her, on her, I think mostly her face. It looked like, and her dad said it looked like something had been put in her mouth that left. marks on either side of her mouth. Like she was gagged. Not gayed like with a rag gag, but that's something, when you put something in somebody's mouth and they can't scream, that's a gag.

It doesn't matter what it is. And I just find it hard to believe that he walked in there carrying the knife and a sheath, because I don't think he was wearing it. Otherwise, the sheath couldn't have been left behind. So he's carrying this sheath and knife. And he was carrying something else. I just, I can't believe that. And it just is too much of,

I hate to use the word coincidence, but I mean, because coincidences do happen, but you have a knife that has a hilt. Right. That is rounded, that has striped grooves in it. Yeah.

That if you shoved it into somebody's mouth sideways, would leave striped grooves on either side of, a rounded striped grooves on either side of her mouth. Now, some people are pointing to interviews where a reporter said, you know, do you think it was a fist? And he said, no, it was not. It's definitely not a fist. It was something else. In the documents, it says, it said something about they had done a comparison because the butt of the knife apparently had a square. It was square shaped. And she, and the Emmy does say that she doesn't get specific, but she says there's wounds that are consistent with the K-bar knife. okay um some something she did get specific about with as far as the the way the tip of the knife

would have made certain kinds of wounds but she didn't get more specific than that and then in that interview the reporter then said well do you think it could have been from the knife now she he could have and again just like anybody else cops are human they're not used to being in interviews and talking about stuff and they've got all these lights and stuff. So they're not going to necessarily be thinking quick on their feet. Okay. And that's because that's not their job. You know, they're not news personalities. So when she said, do you think it was from a knife? His brain could have immediately went to the cutting edge of the knife. Yeah. That she was not cut on either side of her mouth. It came from

something else. So he said no. And it just doesn't, but I want to have somebody specifically ask them, do you think it could have come from the hilt of the knife? From being sideways, literally to be specific, being sideways in her mouth. Now, other people like, well,

how would he do that? He'd have to hold on to the knife blade and he would have cut himself. It's like people can't picture this. And here I guess I am kind of putting myself in the killer's shoes. But very simply, you're holding a knife in your hand. Put,

you know, act like you're wrapping your fist around it. Now turn your fist sideways like you're punching forward. You're the blades to the side. Yeah. Now you've got somebody's, now you're holding the hilt still. Now somebody's on their back.

And you take and you shove your fist towards that person's mouth, open your hand and use the palm of your hand or the heel of your hand to shove the hilt sideways across their mouth. You're not touching the blade. That's how you put it in somebody's mouth. I just, I just can't imagine that he found something that just happened to look exactly and leave a pattern exactly like the hilt of a K bar would be

that he happened to find in the room. or people are like, oh, maybe it was a flashlight. Maybe it was brass knuckles. Maybe it was, I mean, yeah, and they all had something that looked exactly like the handle of a K bar mouth. Yeah. And he definitely had gloves on. So there's no way he could have a brass knuckle. Oh, he could still.

Well, okay. But it could. I mean, they make, they make knives that have knuckles. Now, why do I think that, you know, the Consolvis is fairly, you know, fair enough are saying, you know, well, why? are they being so cagey about it? You know, yeah, we know that whatever the second weapon was, wasn't the weapon that gave the mortal blows, but we know that something else.

Then they admit that there was something else. Now, there's nothing in the documents that I can find that documents this. It's all been in the interviews and stuff. And I think looking from a law enforcement's perspective, they don't have the knife. and if I was law enforcement, I would not want to put out there, oh yeah, I think it was the knife hilt without having that knife to prove it. Yeah. And they don't know.

I mean, for all they know, it wasn't the knife hilt, you know, it was something else because they don't know that Kohlberger didn't somehow modify the knife hilt. No, that's true. They don't know that because they don't have that. That's true. And that leads me to my next question where Dylan said that she felt like he was holding something at his. adamant with two hands as he left the house. And then people have been speculating and it looked like a vacuum or whatever. And people have been speculating what that could be.

What do you think with that report? I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out. I don't know if, if she really saw him holding it with two hands. because it says in the, I'm trying to find the document now, but it says in the, which one was that? That's number 42 I want to say.

Let me see if I can pull this down here. You may have to cut this out later. I'm going to this too fast. Okay. It's in the second, I know my computer's decided to take forever. It's okay. Bill Gates, screw you, Bill Gates.

in the second interview that she had let me get to it here hold on I'm close and by the way when you're getting to it I want to say something too like we've said this on every episode that we've done about the Idaho murders is that if you have a daughter that is in college or you are in college yourself that are listening to this just understand that like sometimes when we talk about

the graphic part of this just put that in your head don't make it don't make it envelop your life with fear but make it give you a sense of defense like because i think i think there's so many of us that kind of move through life today that feel like we are invincible that we feel like that nothing's ever going to happen to us until it does and when it does it may be too late you know and and i want people to understand that like things happen like this not necessarily this bad on this level but things do happen this bad to to people every single second almost in America. And it can happen to you in any given minute.

So the reason I'm saying that is because I feel like that most people have to acknowledge and understand the world we live in and understand that, like, yes, you should be compassionate and loving to other people. But that does not mean that you should put your guard down in any way, shape, or form. And, you know, when we go back to the Idaho house where they're college students, this is at almost every single college campus on the planet to where there are college party houses. And yes, and I say party house. Yes, they did live here.

But, you know, oftentimes their door was unlocked and people kind of came in and out of the house. You just have to still understand no matter what. Yes, you're in college. Yes, you're having a great time back when, you know, we were in college or whatever. You didn't necessarily have to think about this as much. Today you do because there are crazier people for whatever reason in this world. and I just want you understand like have fun but also be safe and be smart and be and know your surroundings yeah know your surroundings be aware simple things like locking your doors could have prevented

this maybe but he would have probably still found a way in the house I mean even locking your doors it's just you almost have to get on some mass level of paranoia which we are I mean we are for many reasons but you know you have to get on some mass level of paranoia to where it's like in our in our and wherever we're at we always have a gun in every room every house no matter where we're at any situation and locking our doors even our bedroom doors to where if someone does break in downstairs we have a bedroom door locked where we can hear stuff we got a gun near us that's kind of our mindset but i understand college students they they're living their life they are enjoying their life they feel like that hey i'm going to live forever and most college students will live for a very long

time until something like this happens and i and i know i'm not i'm not trying to i'm not trying to kind of scare colleges. I'm just trying to say that like just understand, especially if you're a pretty girl. You're a pretty girl. There are dudes that might get pissed off if you reject them or whatever the case is and that may lead into something bigger. And I'm not even saying that's necessarily a case with this, which we can talk about that. But anyways, Kristen, go ahead. If you have found what you. I have. I have. Okay, I have. So she says, okay. This is the way the chapter, this is supplemental 42. This is document 42.

And she said, she believed he was holding something near his stomach or belt line. Dylan used both hands to point straight out from her abdomen and then moved her hands apart and back together to simulate a bulge. So I think some people are misreading that that he was holding. things with both hands, holding it with both hands. But it doesn't say that. It just, because she says then, she said this area that she was gesturing to was black in color and she thought now maybe it was a gun. She said the unknown object had an arrow shape.

She seemed really unsure and said she was tired during the event. So we've seen gun, arrow shape, vacuum part, piece of a vacuum. The only person who said container was Bill Thompson. I have not seen container in a document yet. So I don't know. So people are like sharing in the groups and stuff, pictures of containers that you could tall thin evidence containers and stuff. Maybe it was Coburger. And by the way, and you're talking about the abdomen reason.

Do we know if he was wearing like a hoodie or something or like a black sweatshirt or what do we know? We don't know what kind of shirt he was wearing. She says that. he just said he was wearing all black with a ski mask that covered just his forehead and goes around his face she showed with her hands the mask is exposed his nose but covered his mouth area so that's called a how you say that that clavaca or bala i don't even know it's basically a ski mask that doesn't have the eye holes it's in the nose hole it just has one big hole that covers either your nose and mouth or just your mouth so it's

one big circular hole. But no one ever explained his hair in this. Like, I mean, I know, I know we've heard about the eyebrows, right? The bushy eyebrows,

yeah. But the man, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's like a ski mask. Oh,

okay. So it's over your head. Okay, I got you. So she couldn't see, she could see, it said, it covered his forehead and went around his face.

So she could see his eyes and his nose. And that was it because the rest of his head was covered. Um, she could not, uh, make out his, um, let's see

in a couple different things it changes depending on which like the early one is a little bit different from the later one but she said it was approximately her height or taller that she could make out she couldn't see the color of his eyebrows

or his eye shape which that tells me that suggests to me that maybe she didn't look him in the eye do you know what people said oh she came face to face they looked each other in the eye again that's just people exaggerating and adding details that are not here.

And I blame things like the the Dateline episode and Howard Bloom. I don't even get me started on him. And now the new book from James, James, what's his face? Is it Patterson that wrote it? Yeah, I think that's it. And by the way, I'm not going to read any of them. The reason I'm asking this about the sweatshirt thing is like you think about the abdomen area. Usually in like, you got a pocket.

Yeah, you got the pocket thing. but like think about like if he was trying to figure out in this time that maybe she saw him if he had his sheath like or whatever he was trying to figure out like hey is what's in here what is not he he leaves the house this is where the sheath gets dropped potentially and that's speculation on itself obviously yeah did he leave it on purpose no i don't think so wait wait wait wait hold on back up here okay the sheath was found partially under mattie and her blanket in her bedroom. He had already lost it long before he walked past Dylan. I don't think he even remembered it. I don't think so either. In all honesty, I don't think he was, I mean, he had

just bought that earlier, that knife earlier in the year. And I don't think he was familiar with it. I don't think he hunted. I don't think he was familiar with this kind of knife. I don't think he ever owned a knife that had a sheath. And my theory is that from what I've, and I think

this is backed up somewhere in a document. not in these documents, but somewhere in something else. Or it just was reported and it might be just complete BS. But rumor hasn't that, and I want to say rumor, but I swear it was in an official thing, but who knows, that he had worked in a fish market, cutting fish. And people are like, well, that would make him good with a knife. I'm sorry, but what you cut with fish with is nothing like a K-bar.

I mean, people need to look at how big these things are. Yeah, they're phalaid knives, too. Yeah. So many people are like, he left it on purpose. He did that for his calls. No, no, no, I don't think so. No. Okay.

Here. I think he was an idiot. My son was a chef, okay? And a lot of those kitchen knives have sheets. Yeah. Because you have to because it'll slice your. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Which are knife covers. Okay. So if he really did work in a fish market cutting fish, he thought of when he bought, when he got that, when that knife was delivered to. him, he saw a decorative cover for the knife. It didn't even occur to him that you're supposed to put this on your belt loop or whatever.

In his mind, it was a cover. Okay. So it didn't even occur to him. The sheath was not something he, like, like my husband, you know, he has one of those multi-tools. Occasionally he'll wear it on his belts. He wears belts. A lot of kids these days don't even wear belts.

Yeah. You know, so I don't say. And also they said they made a lot, a big point about the, about that Dickies receipt. And a lot of people feel that the Dickies was one of those one piece cover-all things, which don't have, you don't wear a belt with that. So you can't clip a sheath onto one of those. But they do, I mean, he could have taken and wrapped something, a towel or something

around it when he, from Zana's room, there could be a towel missing or a T-shirt or something, who knows? It could just be, but she did say it was arrow-shamed. and pointy. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't even all that, you know, she said he was bulging from him, but it could be just he was holding it near his stomach. And she couldn't make it out because it was dark. It was dark. And the thing is is that, and it wasn't that dark. I mean, again, if she saw him as he was coming through the living room, the light from that good vibe sign would have been shining on him and illuminating him for her like a spotlight. Right. And while she was back in the dark,

like in an audience, you know, in a theater, you're in the dark, you know. And that's why he didn't see her. Right. And he didn't see her. So, I mean, but she said whatever he was holding, it was dark, but it was arrow-shaped and could have been a gun. Now, you know, where, like the people magazine speculated that it was Zana's food bag.

I mean, how do you get arrow-shaped and gun out of food a food bag from that? You know, I just, plus the food bag was probably in the kitchen. You know, why, I don't know. That whole thing is just, by the way, Chris, I got to ask this question about a Koeberger potentially working at a, a, a, a, fish market. What's the deal with that? I've actually never heard that. Yeah, I have not either. Early in the arrest, it came up that he had worked at a fish market cutting fish. And so I don't even remember which document, which, how that came up in all honesty with you. I'd have to look it up again. Well, the reason I'm asking, let me see, did Brian Koberger work at a fish market? The reason I'm asking this, because the question I asked you earlier about the dog that was filleted.

Murphy. Oh, no, not Murphy. No, you're going there now. The other dog. Yeah, I mean, I mean, because you got to think about it. Like, if he did work at a fish market. Chad is trapped up on this dog that was flayed. No, I, well, no, I am. No, I absolutely am because, I mean, you know, and like you said, I mean, it may not connect

to that, but it's also just very strange. And especially if the dog was filleted. But it does say here, it says there's no verified job records that mention any official documents, police court filings, any of that stuff that he did. But potentially the rumor came from social media, I guess, speculated precise cutting and buddy the dog skinning case. I guess that's what it goes back to. Maybe that's why someone with fish or meat processing experience led the assumptions by Coburg or possibly having that kind of job, which we don't know. So they don't know.

FBI profile has said that you don't need professional training to inflict post-mortem injuries or skin. I think he went after college student. as soon as he arrived to Washington State. Well, I think that's why he probably went there. You know, and you look at the documentaries and you see like all the pictures that were released or not released. On Dateline? Yeah. They weren't supposed to be released with all these girls on his phone.

Yeah, and this is the last topic we'll cover because I think we've covered, you know, I mean, we could obviously go into heavy detail on all of the unsealed files. But last thing I want to cover is, as we were just talking about, what were you just saying? I'm sorry. I literally just blinked. We were talking about the sheath being left behind on purpose. And I was saying that I don't believe so because I think he just was, even if he didn't work in a fish market and that and my whole theory about the thinking of a sheath like a knife cover rather than being something that you wear, even if he didn't, I think he was very inexperienced of that kind of knife. And I think what happened was is when he walked in that room, he pulled the sheath off and then started.

his attack and dropped the sheath, not even thinking about it. I think he was so hyper-focused in myopic and just thinking about what his goal was at that point. The sheath was just completely forgotten. I think probably sometime around 8.39 o'clock the next morning is when he went back. Oh, crap. Yes. He's like, I left the sheath. I am screwed. Which tells me that he didn't do it on purpose. I don't think he thought he was that smart. He wanted to avoid, if you read his whole little paper on how he would investigate a crime scene and how he would not leave any part of himself in a crime scene from an investigative point of view, you know, that's like people too. Oh, he sat down and took off his clothes, that's why he didn't leave a blood trail.

It's like, no, but that completely defeats the purpose of having worn the clothes over his stuff. You know, you don't take off the protective suit in the crime scene. And leave and leave your DNA. Yeah. And just to dispel a lot of one misconception I see a lot when you said that about. coming the next day. A lot of people say, well, he went back to the house. He went into the house. No. He went to that street.

He, none of that seems to be true because if you look at, his phone record said he was in Moscow sometime around 9-12 or so. And he was pretty much back in Pullman by like 930. And people said, well, he could have gone to the street and stuff. Well, first of all, the phone doesn't, isn't that pinpointed. But you would think if he went back to the, even to the street or even to Taylor Avenue, which is that street that, King Rope goes on to. He would have had to driven past Linda Lane, which the 1320 Linda Lake camera looks straight down that road and can see traffic going by on Taylor.

And then if he went on to King, he would have again gone past that 112 King camera. Well, if you look at all the sightings of his car in the court documents from earlier, not these documents, but the court documents that the prosecution submitted, It lists all the times the cameras saw his car. And at 9 o'clock or 9, whatever, 912 or 9.13, whatever time it was the next day. His car was seen heading southbound on Main Street past that same A&W, like at the corner of Maine and Steiner at A&W gas station.

Right. Well, they found the footage of his car. Yeah, that was the one where he was going on Steiner. And that's where they caught that his car didn't have a front plate. Right. License plate. But anyhow, they saw his car. car nine something going southbound on main street there that's it yeah if that's it for that whole day

is that kid going southbound on main street so they don't have them by the linda lane cameras they don't have them by the ridge road cameras they don't have them by the king road camera so he was not circling the house you know some people say well that was his white car behind on on walenta dry He was not circling the house. He never went back after that time. And I don't think they can confidently say that. I think he, other than later that day, he turned his phone off again for several hours. And that's what I think he was bearing his evidence or getting rid of his evidence is when he turned his phone back off again on, was it later on the 13th or the 14th?

I can't remember. Well, I mean, and to that point, I mean, even at 12, 26 a.m. on the night of the murders, he was listening to police scanner feed from Pullman. Test in documents, monitored law enforcement activity beforehand, his phone then entered airplane mode from 245 a.m. to 4 a.m. aligning with the timeline. This is kind of how all the stuff started pointing to him. But it's just strange to me.

This guy was, you know, he was in college, what you're in college for? What is it, criminology or what was he in for? He's that criminal science. I think one of his specialties was, it was criminology. and I think one of the specialties was cyber, like, like, which is nuts. Electronics and stuff.

Forensics. I'm totally blanking on the word. The forensics for electronics and stuff, which actually, he did do a pretty good job wiping his stuff. He didn't wipe everything. I mean, a lot of people say, well, he wiped all his stuff,

so that's why they don't know if he's Papa Roger. The thing is, it's like they've got that fact that he went to that website on November 13th. So how would they know by looking to search history that he went to that website if he wiped everything? Clearly he didn't wipe everything. But that's not how they know who Papa Rogers is. And also keeping in mind of the Papa Roger thing, what most people don't realize, the people that are not in like the government corruption conspiracy realm is when you really start digging into and or have been involved in law enforcement, FBI, any of that stuff.

Like as soon as the FBI gets involved, they know everything immediately. Oh, yeah. There is nothing that they cannot find. It doesn't matter what you try to do. They probably know who the real Papa Roger is. Well, absolutely they do. That's what that's what her point is. But the point two is like there's nothing.

It is, you know, okay, so say like 25 or 30 years ago, 40 years ago, if you do the same Brian Coburger thing 30 years ago, you might have got away with it, you know, but the reality is times have changed, especially with the kind of pooling of DNA and even familiar DNA or familial DNA. And even still, if you would have committed crimes 30 years ago, they could then also go back on cold cases and track your DNA based on the stuff they have today. They would not have been able to use geo-fencing or geotracking today from 30 years ago. But it is so hard to get away with a murder today.

Like, I mean, you would have to set your life up over the course of months or years in a pattern to get away with murder in a lot of ways nowadays, especially if it's something like this. Well, there's cold cases all over the world. There is. There is. But those are. That's because it's back up.

It's not going to last long. Yeah, it's not. And the thing is like to be a murder and be successful nowadays, you're, you're going to have to really, really be on top of your game. And it's just so hard. And this is a, it's a prime example of Brian Koberger was in college for this. Like he should have known all this stuff. Yeah.

He's getting his Ph.D. Yeah, and he was a, what is a student teacher, I guess you can say? He was a teacher assistant. Yeah, TA, teacher assistant. Yeah. So this guy still screwed it up. And he actually screwed up more than I would imagine. I mean, you know, the.

I don't know. He left no blood evidence anywhere. And obviously, they watched him clean his car real good. And him taking out the trash to the neighbor's trash and all that. But here's the question. Without the knife sheath. Would they have? He never found him.

Yes. Yes. They would have from his elantra. No, well, maybe. From his car. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Maybe.

Maybe. Okay. Can I just get something in with this too? Because there's a, there's a lot of people do not understand how he became a suspect. A lot of people think it was the elantra. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't. And the probable cause affidavit was the biggest, uh, misinformation, not misinformation.

It was the biggest confuser for that because the probable cause affidavit mentioned things that happened prior to Colberger having become a suspect. And people took that as being as part of the investigation as that that's the way it happened in that order. Like it says that the WSU officers had went out after they got the Bolo to. looked for a white elantra and they found co-burers-a-lantra and then Officer Pay or Detective Payne spoke to them and found out about it, you know, that was on November 29th and then he looked up Coburger's license and it all went from there. No, that's not what happened.

Now, on November 29th, yes, the WSU officers did find Colborger's car and the information in the parking registry for the university. However, the specific, the BOLO was so specific in the 2011 to 2013 model that the officers said they're looking for a 2011-2013. This is a 2015. So they dismissed it. And which was reasonable. They didn't want to send, I mean, they were getting so many tips on white oantras after they went public. It was crazy.

But they said they were very specific in what they were looking for. so, you know, they made a note of it. It was in their records, but they didn't call it in as a tip because it wasn't the right car. And what happened really was the investigative genetic genealogy. You know, they did a, they ran the DNA from the sheath through Kodas, could not find anybody because he had no record. They sent it to Authum Labs in Texas, who created an SNP or SNP DNA profile, which they started to build a family tree based off. They uploaded it to what the genealogy data base that they had, which is much smaller. They apparently found four brothers that were kind of on the family tree,

but then they hit a dead end from that point. And at that point, Moscow said, let's send it to the genealogy team at the FBI. So on December 13th, the FBI got the SNIP profile, and they expanded on that. And December 13th, it's also another significant date, because that's, you know, the date that Colberger's license plate was caught by a Colorado license plate reader. He was on his way to Pennsylvania with his dad. Right. The FBI did not get, that's the same day the FBI got that DNA. So the FBI was not trailing Goldberger to Pennsylvania because they didn't even get the DNA to start testing it and building the IGG until December 13th when Colberger was already on the road.

So that on December 19th, they contacted Myrower. and said what they did was they got a hit in the in the public genealogy base which they then used that relative it was a relative it was a partial match it was not colberger or coleberger's dad it was some more distant relative they used birth certificates death certificates and marriage certificates to build a family tree for that relative and some branch at some point they got to this branch of this this colberger family in pennsylvania and somebody noticed that the youngest son youngest child in the Colberger family named Brian just so happened to live 12 minutes away from the crime scene. So they went, oh, this is somebody we should probably look into. He's on the family

tree. They don't have his DNA yet, but he's on the family tree. So they send that to Moscow as a tip that you might want to look into the guy. And so at that point, that was December's 19th on December 20th is when Corporal Payne contacted WSU officers. And that's when he first heard. about them having seen Cobur's car back on the 29th. Then from that point on, everything in the probable cause affidavit is chronological. Then they found out that. They found out his garbage register in Pennsylvania. They called Pennsylvania.

Found out Pennsylvania doesn't issue front license plates. So that they find out that Coburger didn't change to a Washington plates until after November 18th, which means on the night of the crime, he only had one plate on his car and no front plate. That's a big red flag right there. Then they check the ID and see that he could fit. They can't exclude him from what Dylan saw. He wasn't like short and very heavy with blonde hair. You know what I mean? He could fit. So there's another thing. So then they also find it. Well, first of all, the first thing they probably found out was he's got a whiteelantra. Hello. That's a pretty big coincidence. This guy who, you know, is on the family tree and he has a white lanter and he didn't

have a front plate on it. So then they start finding up. Then they get it that that gives them, the warrant to get the phone records on December 23rd. So that's when they see that he had his very suspicious behavior that night. And he was driving around and he turned his phone off, which was really fishy. Why would his phone go off? You know, even when he was still in Pullman, when his phone should work just fine, so they knew he didn't lose service. And then at the same time his phone is off,

this white-a-lantra with no plate is seen on videos, and real front plate. And then the big one that people ignore a lot is that the car sped off, the car white lanter with no front plate speeds off at 420 yeah at 448 Colberger's phone comes on and he was the car sped off heading south right and they believe he went south yeah and he went a different direction right he went out like he went he went out from king road and went around on walenta and sir and we wove his way down through that neighborhood and came out on pelusa river drive And they believe he continued to go through some back roads.

I think what happened was he decided, because he took a really circular, circuitous route coming to Moscow that night. Because if you think about it, it should have only taken him 12 minutes to get there, but it took over 30 minutes before he was seen over on Indy Hills Drive coming in from the east. He should have been coming in from the west. So he went all the way around to avoid all the cameras in Moscow, I think. And so when he was leaving, I think he was trying to avoid the cameras as you go south. And so I think he turned right.

And he took some side roads like sand road. And he got himself lost. And at 448, he's only a couple miles south of Moscow still because he's been wandering around out there. And I think he got lost, turned his phone on to use his GPS to figure out where the heck he was. Oh, that's a good. So at 448, his phone turns on just south of Moscow and uses the Blaine to. tower just after the white ointra had itself. You know, it's just like, yeah, I didn't think about that.

That all puts him right there. When he says he's supposedly over on the other side of Pullman in a park, stargazing on a foggy night, I know he never actually said he was stargazing, but it's funny to say. But that is how they got to him was the genetic genealogy. And that happened around December 19th. it was nothing to do with this car. However, to your point, Sherry,

I think had they not gotten that, I think it would have been tedious and would have taken a lot more time, but I think if they would have gone through every single thing, they eventually would have hooked up with WSU and heard about that. And even the gas station. Yeah, well, so even to that point.

That was not his car. Oh, it wasn't? No. Nope. Oh, okay. No, I did see that, yeah. Yeah, 345. that was speeding south past that gas station at 3.45 a.m.

And if you look at the documents at 3.45 a.m. they have Colburger's car heading north on Walento over by the house. So that was not him. It was just another white car. And so back to the point to of like, you know, he screwed up a lot, actually. I mean, I mean, he really. I mean, in his. No, he screwed up a lot.

Like for someone that's being in the school that you're in and doing what you're doing, you're an idiot. Well, I'm just saying he had no drops of blood anywhere in his apartment. It doesn't matter. That's fine. It is a car. He can clean good. Yeah, you can clean good.

I mean, that's one thing. And considering what the person in jail next to him said about him in jail, he is definitely OCD. Oh, yeah. Because they were saying, like, in part of the documents, it's like he drove the other prisoners crazy because he took 45 minutes showers. How do you even get to take a 45 minutes? I don't know.

Handwashing constantly. But here's the thing about that. So like OCD, and I think they said that he had what, um, uh, autistic, you know, whatever, you know, now listen, autistic people are extremely smart. I mean, they are. I mean, oftentimes they have. They can be. No, they can be. Yeah, they can be.

My child is autistic, so I know a lot about autism. I can totally go ahead of that, but it depends. They can be. Yeah, you can be very coordinated smart in certain things. But then other things you miss. And it's things that maybe. maybe someone that's not as smart as you on certain things, don't miss. And so I think maybe that's, I just don't understand how if your entire livelihood and

what you're going to school for is to investigate and figure out criminal minds and how they think and what they should do and kind of. So you commit the perfect murder. Yeah. Because that's what I feel like that he was trying to do. But he did a horrible job of that. And I guess that was the thing. And I want to go back for a second.

And Kristen, we're going to wrap this up. second sure but as we had um had jason on the cia guy he's he's he's like a world famous he has a cia spy school in i think it's utal yeah um and he's been on opra and everybody but when we had had him on and i and i'm we were talking about this before the podcast i think it was after someone had found the nice sheath now i don't know that we knew brian coberger was necessarily the perpetrator at this time but it was one of the things he said was like as a CIA guy. If a CIA guy is going through this house and they're going to do this exact murder,

they're going to be a ghost. They're going to be a ghost. And there's no chance. And I think that's what Brian was trying to do. But he failed multiple levels. Miserably. Miserably. Yeah.

He felled. Yeah. And I think that's the difference in, you know. Thank goodness. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure.

So you guys 100% think that Brian Colberger is the. the only murderer in this case. Absolutely. Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. There's just no evidence. I mean, Dylan didn't see anybody else leaving, you know, and who's he going to cover for it?

I mean, just interview upon interview said he was a loner. He ticked people off. He rubbed people the wrong way. He didn't really have any friends. He had just moved there, I think, June 21st. And he knew a couple people, but he's really going to, somebody with that, a abrasive, narcissistic, just rude personality from whatever. He could turn on the charm.

That's why I think he really was a, because they talked, there was an interview with a nurse or a receptionist at his doctor's office. Apparently, like on the 17th or the 18th of November, he had a doctor's appointment. Oh, he was so charming and so nice. And they just so, such a wonderful person that they made note of it. You know what I mean? Like he was noticeably. So to me that that's just a psychopath.

He's just a psychopath. And I'm going to say even when his stops with the police, when he was like asking the rules of like how you do certain things, he was very charming. Well, listen. He was very charming. People like that are going to be. But let me finish my thought. Okay. The thing is, is that that type of person, he was there for four and a half five months.

And you can't convince me that he managed to make such a good friend that not only was that friend willing. to kill with him and commit a quadruple homicide, but Brian is willing to go to prison and not even mention his name and do four life sentences for him. Right. Yeah. Who the heck is that? Tell me who makes that kind of relationship. And I hate to even talk about this, but the reason why I have to talk about this is because

I have a first cousin that is a serial killer. And he is on death. He is on death row. Wow. And so he actually still calls us every once a while. and I will talk to him. And the reason I say this is because to what you just said, Kristen, is at the family reunions that we used to hang out with him, he committed most of these murders in the 80s.

So when we were at like family reunions in the 90s and, you know, early 2000s before he got caught, you know, he was the nicest guy you would ever talk to. Like he was the one person that you wanted to go and talk to. Like when you go to family reunions, it was like, hey, we got to go talk to him. because he's he's like the coolest dude. And he would talk about, he was the most, um,

uh, storytelling, charismatic, charismatic. All of the, all of the things that you would fit, you know, feel like like,

hey, this is the guy you want to talk to. And oftentimes these people that are like this, the narcissist, the people that are really, um, and also that's like with the CIA thing. The CIA tries to find people like that,

but not all the way there. They, they go to a level to where, They recruit them. Yeah, they recruit the people that's almost there. Right. But not quite. They do though.

Yeah. Psychopaths can make really, it depends on what the choose good or evil with their superpower. Yeah. Being able to do that. And he can turn it off and turn on. I mean, if he really is also autistic, that would throw a wrench into the whole,

the rest of it. Do you know what I mean? Because autistic people, that's where they have the awkwardness of, of not knowing how to do small talk and stuff like that. and they can turn on the charm. It just doesn't, it can come off almost, what is that, uh, uncanny valley. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like for some people, it's like you can tell they're trying, but they're not quite. And it's like they're pretending to be human. And so maybe that, but that can still work on some people. And so maybe with the doctor's office, but the vast, that was the only time I ever heard him described that way. Every other time you just hear that he was awkward and abrasive and rude, especially to women. Well, that's why CIA doesn't want psychopaths or narcissists.

They want they want, they want, they want, um, sociopaths. But there you go. But they want, they want, but they want, they want, but they want, they want, do you guys consider Brian Colberger as? I think he's all of the above. Well, I think that he was at the very least narcissist. Well, not even necessarily narciss. I think it was a psychopath.

Yeah. He definitely is into himself. Well, yeah. No, I don't think he was. I mean, if you look at him, I think that he had so many, I think he had so many things that he was, I feel like he felt like he was rejected throughout his life. Well, I don't think he felt like he ever had empathy. He never experienced feelings or emotions.

He talked about that in the Tapatoch writing when he was a teenager, yeah, when we talked about the visual snow and all that. Right. I mean, I just saw something the other day where they described and they said, all psychopaths are narcissists, but not all nicest are psychopaths. Yeah. So I feel like he probably is a psychopath. possibly autistic.

I mean, not all psychopaths are brilliant. And, you know, I mean, you just did not all, they're not all able to switch it on or off. You know, I mean, even like BTK, everybody said he was a stand-up guy, but nobody would have told him that he was a joy to party with. Right. You know, I mean, it's, you know, so, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to say. But I absolutely don't think that he was capable of making the type of friendship. No. Or connection with somebody that it would take.

to be able to get them to do this together. That's why I think absolutely. And just all the evidence points to it being one weapon. And Dylan only saw one person, you know. So, I mean, he was the one person who kept going over there. I mean, I think they would have seen some kind of evidence that he lived alone. You know, they would find some kind of evidence that he had friends and stuff. There was a couple.

There was one thing mentioned in the documents where somebody, a witness, came forward and said that they came home. And he was sitting and talking to some guy on the same. steps who look like the way I'm doing from memory now, but something that he looked like some kind of motorcycle dude or something, you know, kind of the way it was described was, I mean, I know how to ride a motorcycle. I don't think my dad wrote a motorcycle. He's not at all like what you think of like a motorcycle gang person. You know what I mean? But that's the way they were making it almost sound like kind of an unsavory motorcycle type dude. And that when they walked up,

they both kind of shut up and looked at them and, you know, just kind of watched him like they're hiding. So it's like, well, who is that dude? You know, but then again, there was a bunch of stuff of the documents where people were making, you know, claim that he went to Oklahoma State University and, and somebody gave him a knife and, you know, you go through this whole story and you'll see that repeated. I think that was one of the other stories is that, you know, people were saying, oh, he, you know, he had a knife and he got this knife from this guy and blah, blah, blah, and he was at, and then you read down to the bottom of the document and the cops, you know, whoever was writing it says, yeah, well, we looked

into her and she had like 36 different reports over the years that she'd been calling into like the FBI and all these other people to these different cases and so they weren't really taking her very seriously in that story. So, you know, I just think about the witness that went on Tinder and went on a date with him and she went on a date, they went to a movie or whatever,

she felt uncomfortable and she had to go to her bathroom to pretend to throw up. And then after he left, finally, she said, you have good birthing hips. That is not a normal person. No. But it's all, but it all, But it goes back to the point where, you know, I talk about my first cousin.

There are some people that are, you know, very good in certain environments and talking to people. I don't think Cooper was that way. I think he was a little off putting, offsetting a little bit. I think he had these tendencies in his mind that he had this deep, dark thing that he did not. I mean, and it's weird. And like when we've talked about spiritual stuff on the podcast for it. And it's like sometimes you think about what people do is like, is it like some kind of evil spirit that gets in these people? And I know that sounds nuts, but we don't know.

But it's just like how, like, what leads people to this stuff? And then, and then there's other people that like, it seems like they, their entire lives, everything they do, everything they say, how, how charismatic they are. How approachable they are. Well, it's like Ted Bundy and Ted Bundy was his like, you know, he loved him. Yeah. But there are some people, there are some people that are so much better at charismatic side of this. And they're also just as evil. He was like that person.

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's people that are Coburger. And I think Coburger, I think that he was smart, but not that smart. And I think that he was rejected potentially. I think that he was pissed off about something. And in leading back to the last thing we're going to ask and then we're going to, I think what we're going to do with this podcast is we're going to play out.

Olivia. Yeah, Olivia is. And I don't even, am I saying it right, Kristen? Because it starts with an A. I think it's Olivia. I think it's Olivia. Olivia, Olivia, but it sounds like Olivia, but I think it's Olivia. Olivia.

Yeah. Well, so I guess my whole point of this is to end this is how do we think Brian Koberger is going to do in prison? Because I've seen like prison guys on YouTube that says, hey, I've been in prison. I think prison is going to use him for the benefit because of this and this and that. Do you think that they're going to try to kill him in prison? you think that he's going to kind of be touted as like this glorious leader in certain factions of a prison? I can't seem being charismatic enough to become a glorious leader of any kind of thing.

But as far as, you know, being killed or not, I guess that's going to all depend on who he's around. I mean, is, I mean, the one, the guy who killed Jeffrey Dahmer, if I remember correctly, pretty much just did it just because he wanted to be able to get his name in the news. He was just a glory hound type of thing. and people say, well, it was because he was weird. It's like, well, yeah, that's what he said. But I think he just was looking for his 15 minutes.

I mean, just because you're a convict doesn't mean you don't want your 15 minutes, too, you know. So I guess it depends on who he ends up being around. I don't see him in the beginning being in the general population a whole lot. I just, I don't think he has the fortitude to do really well in there. I don't think he's going to be very intimidating to people. And frankly, I don't really care if what happens to him in prison. You know, I mean, whatever happens, whatever it will be, will be, Ksara, sarah, right? Absolutely.

I agree. I'm glad he did not get the death penalty because to me, life in prison is far, far worse of, especially without parole because he has no chance of that. And yes, he could possibly appeal, but that doesn't mean the appeal is going to be granted because it won't be. I can guarantee you that. It won't be. So, yeah, to me, I think it's much more punishment for what he's going to do because just the thought of him getting the death penalty and then another 30 or 40 years. And what does that guy's been on death row in Idaho for like 42 years now? I mean, could you imagine their family going through that for 42 years?

I just, I think they dodged a bullet on that. I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but later on they're going to be thankful that they're not going to these constant parole here. and all these other things and dealing with being harassed by people who oppose the death penalty. It would be just crazy. And everything. I mean, they're going to end up with that too. I personally do oppose a death penalty,

but mainly because I feel like if one innocent person gets killed and, again, I feel like the death penalty is the easy way out. So I agree. I agree with that. I was going to ask you that question. I was going to ask you how you felt about the plea agreement. And I agree. I mean, we, you know, in some case, like, if you knew for sure,

like it for me if I knew for sure like what without a doubt that you did this heinous act I would probably be an agreement for the death penalty but you just never know and you know our justice system is not perfect 12 jurors on the same juror panel you don't know how they're going to react and how they're going to think yeah and and they and yeah could give him a non guilty plea absolutely yeah could have been another case Anthony or o j Simpson or you know these people that were it was just so obvious and somebody just can't you know, I mean, watching how many people, they call them pro burgers in the, in the groups that were pro burgers that were just he's innocent, he's being

railroaded, he's being framed despite any evidence whatsoever. Even today with him confessing and saying, yeah, I did it. They're still holding, oh, he's being forced to say he did. I mean, they're just, they're delusional. And if you've got one of those who

was good enough at covering it up, in jury selection, and then you have a hung jury, you know, I mean, just, there's just so many risks. And then even what, like I said, even once he, he gets sentenced to the death penalty, it still ends up being more like life in prison. Oh, yeah. And it just drags it drags it for, like, life in prison for the families, too. Right.

Yeah. And I think that's horrible. That's what's so funny, Kristen, is like, you know, we obviously talk about conspiracy and stuff. We have, we have for seven or eight years. And so there are times that we are. on this, you know, I guess this political side or that political side. But like if we switch from like, hey, well, maybe we're pro this.

And then, you know, we find out new information or something happens. And then, you know, a year later, we're like, hey, you know what? We're not on this side anymore because what are, what our main goal is is truth. And sometimes people that kind of devote their, their time to you and they think that, hey, you're on our side. they feel like you're always supposed to be on their side, no matter what revelations come out. Right. And so for us, it's like, it's always like, look, we're just on the side of truth. That's all we ever want.

We always want the truth. We always want what's right for the people. And for us, it's like when you hear conspiracy, it's like, man, you know what? It's not, it's not conspiracy. It's about like we want the best for people, not the government. But what makes me sad about this whole case is that I think that the families haven't gotten closure. from the trial that was supposed to happen. Yeah, I mean, at least some of them feel that way.

Yeah. And I don't, but I don't know. The thing is is that even if we had had a trial, the idea, I mean, all of the stuff that's coming out now would have possibly come out, you know, but if anybody thinks Coburger would have gotten on the stand and say, yeah, I did it. And here's how I did it. And here's why I did it. That never was going to happen.

No. So. And then he could have gotten off. and he was never going to admit guilt. He would have been found guilty by a jury, but he wouldn't have admitted the guilt. And in this sense, he at least admits the guilt. They're not being drugged back into prison

for the next 40-some-odd prison, court, sorry, for the next 40-some-odd years, you know. And it's just, to me, it's just, and I'm not in their shoes, you know. I mean, I can see that knee-jerk reaction of, you killed my loved one. I want to see you dead too. I can totally like feel for that.

I mean, I can relate to that. I understand that. I've had a loved one killed. So I know what that feels like. I just, the reality of what the death penalty, the reality of what the death penalty is versus what people think it is are completely two completely different things.

So you think you're going to get this instant justice, eye for an eye. And really you just get life in prison without parole and the family's being dragged along in it for that entire time and there's never any closure and still no admission of guilt. It's just constantly him saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. And you have to hear that for 40 years. Yeah, absolutely. That's worse to me.

That's hell. That's hell on earth. I agree. And listen, guys, I mean, we were going to, I was going to end this with the Olivia Gonzalez, I guess, impact statement. but I think that you guys should go and listen to all the statements because I think they're very important. Oh, yeah. And Kristen, we are so glad to have you on.

I mean, we've talked about this many times, but, you know, I know that you've been heavy and deep into this case and the murders. What I do want to say for the family that may be listening or whoever, we are praying for you guys. We are, I mean, our heartfelt, everything goes out to you. we can't even imagine what you guys are going through and we can talk about it we can speculate we can discuss it and we're doing it because like we want um we we just want to we want to we want to bring light to the i guess conversation and the case especially to maybe save other people in the in the future and in or other college kids i mean i think that's the most important and and christin i appreciate you coming on and talking about it is it's not an easy subject

to talk about even when we're playing music and in the intros or altros that's why we pick one song and that is shivers image you by 11 caliber because it's just like the song kind of depicts how shattering that is for families and people to where it's like when they lose someone that they can't ever imagine losing that song kind of depicts that and so it's like every other song we've ever played on any podcast cannot do justice for what we're going to to talk about. And so as we speculate and as we talk about all this stuff, just understand any family members or any people that have ever lost anybody in tragic six to eight.

We've talked to a lot of people. We've talked to family members. We've helped on cases on stuff throughout the United States. And it's never easy for family members for sure. But I think it's also important to talk about it. I think it's important to highlight that stuff like this does happen. It can happen to you. And I think that if you're a parent, you should talk to your kids about, you know, the dangers in the world today because we don't live in the same world that you may be lived in if you're 40 or 50 or 60 years old.

It's a different world. And there are evil people out there. And I think Brian Coburger is evil. I think you can look in his eyes, in the pictures, the images. He looks like the devil. He looks like he has no soul. And no emotion. No empathy, no nothing.

And I think to be able to... And that just kills me that he could not even like during the sentencing, he just could not even apologize for his crimes. Well, of course he's not going to because when you look at him, it's just you don't see a person almost. No. And there are people like that on this earth. And, you know, whatever your spiritual beliefs are, whatever, I mean, you know, some people will say this evil. And I think that I think that you can't say it isn't evil based on what. he did to these young kids?

I think, and just to add to you, you said it's like he's not a bit of a person. And I think what I would like to add to that is that what's really important is people who follow these things and listen to this podcast and join these groups and watch these true crime YouTubers and TikTokers, it's really important. And I second that people should go and listen to that, those, every single one of those victim impact statements and look at those pictures. of those three girls and that young man. And remember that these are not actors.

These are not headshots. These are not people pretending. These were real people. I mean, very often, even I have to admit that sometimes I get so caught up because I'm into the mystery and the forensics and the IGG and all the other kind of stuff. I have to stop myself and look at these pictures. And the other day they had one of Kaylee and Maddie and some friends, somebody posted a video of them tubing down and I heard their voices.

And it just really hit me that, God, yeah, that's right. These are real people. We need to remember that these are, these were somebody's lives. This was not, this is not acting. This is not criminal minds. This is not SVU or whatever you watch on TV. And just you need to take a step back and a breath sometimes when people are debating it and and accusing people and all that other stuff and just take a step back and just remember that

this is not your for your entertainment. This is this is real life and real people are affected by this. And these kids are, they're really gone. You know, we didn't get to even know them until after they were gone, which is just the world didn't get to know them until after they were gone. And that is just the saddest thing ever and just remember that.

It's sad. I mean, you know, when you hear voices like like you said, It just makes me want to cry right now. Yeah, there's a voice is a, is a signal of a soul. And it's like you're never going to hear that voice from anybody else ever again. And that's the sad part. But Kristen, thank you so much for coming on.

I don't know if you have anything to, I don't know if you, you, I don't know, I don't, I know, you don't, I know, you don't do a podcast or any of that stuff. But if you do have anywhere that people want to follow you, you can say that now. Well, you can join the, join that big group. the totally blanking at the Idaho University Idaho murder case

discussion group Kristen yeah sorry I'm blanking it's late it's getting late yeah that was one of the first

groups I did join in the beginning join us join us there you'll see me posting there if you have questions if you're trying to figure stuff out if you'd like to know the facts of the case

and not just all the rumors and stuff there's a lot of really great people in the group there's a lot of craziness too I mean 200 and you over quarter, what is that, quarter million people? Yeah.

You know, there's going to be a lot of cooks and there's a lot of drama and stuff, but they do try really hard to do. They just got a great moderation team there, and they'd stop down on victim blaming and family attacks and things like that. But a lot of good people there who are trying to give people answers, make sure that the truth is out there about the case and not all this misinformation and everything. And I'm just one of them.

who I guess just does a little more deeper dive than most sane people would. Yeah. And we so appreciate you, Kristen. Thank you so much because that is a hard thing to do is to come on a podcast and talk about this. Yeah, it is. It's tough. It's tough for us for sure. It's been eight years. It's still hard. But we do appreciate it. Kristen, thank you so much for coming on. Guys, listen, that's going to be it for us. We will be back quite a few times this week. and then in August we are turning over a new leaf. We have announced out on social media.

You don't know what it means yet, but you will soon find out. So just stay tuned and figure out what that means. Yeah, I don't even think you know that what it means. No, I do. No, I do. I do know what it means. But guys, we're going to close it with Shivers,

uh, image of you by loving caliber. And I want you guys just to like pray for these families right now too. Absolutely. And listen to the words of this because this is probably what a lot of these family members, um, have been dealing with since the loss of their kids.

Guys, until next time we love you. Peace out. Peace out, guys. Love you. If just for a minute, I'd fall asleep. And most of the times of my friends and we, so I can't provide beside you as I try to raise just because I see that phase. And it shivered because it shivers it all.

I'll sleep and not dream about a lot of ideas. I don't know if I'll call Sivers it hurt