Investigate Earth Conspiracy Podcast - The Shroud of Turin | Evidence of Jesus’ Resurrection or History’s Greatest Mystery?

Episode Date: July 4, 2026

We are revisiting one of our most fascinating Investigate Earth episodes: The Shroud of Turin. Is this ancient cloth truly connected to the burial of Jesus Christ, or is it one of history’s greatest mysteries? For centuries, the Shroud has sparked debate among believers, skeptics, scientists, historians, and researchers. Some believe it may show the image of Jesus after the crucifixion. Others argue it could be a medieval forgery. But the questions surrounding the image, the wounds, the blood evidence, and the science behind the cloth continue to make the Shroud of Turin one of the most controversial religious artifacts in the world. In this episode, we explore the mystery of the Shroud of Turin, the possibility of evidence connected to Jesus’ resurrection, and why this relic continues to capture the attention of people around the world.

and welcome back to Investigator Earth podcast. Tonight we're diving into one of the most enduring and controversial relics in the history of Christianity. We're talking about the shroud of Turin, a single piece of linen cloth, almost 14 feet long, bearing the faint yet haunting image of a man, a man many people believe to be Jesus Christ himself, crucified, buried, and somehow preserved in the mysterious fabric. Over the centuries, the shroud has been revered, studied, debunked, and defended by scientists, theologians, and skeptics alike. Radio carbon dating, forensic analysis, and even modern-day 3D rendering have all attempted

to unravel its secrets, but still, the mystery remains. Tonight we're peeling back the layers of history, science and faith to uncover what the shroud of Turin truly is. Is it the burial cloth of Jesus, a medieval forgery or something far stranger than anyone has dared to imagine? Guys, welcome to the show. It is April the 6th, 2025. I am very, very excited about this episode.

Cherry, because as you know, and as everybody listening knows, we are not necessarily the people that you would want to come to if you want the answers to all of the biblical historical facts and whatever. We have been on a journey. And we are on a journey, which I'm very proud to be on this journey. And I think that in many ways, God is leading me on this journey. And I'll tell you why I think God is leading us on this journey. We actually have met so many awesome people, especially with so many people that we're

listen to us. And all the times that we said, we don't understand. We don't get it. We are confused and we want to know, but we don't know. I think one thing that God has proven himself through is that he's going to send people to help you. And one of those people is James. James is a listener of ours, but not just a listener. He's a very good friend of ours. He's a really great friend. Yeah, he's a great friend of ours. And there's been many nights that we have been up with James until one or two o'clock in the morning. And James was never someone that got irritated or aggravated with all of the questions, especially from Sherry, because there were hours that James spent with Sherry just trying to go through everything that Sherry had questions about.

And I'm very thankful for that as well. And it's because I do believe in Jesus. I do believe in God. And for those that do not know our story, Sherry comes from a Jewish household, a Jewish background. I come from a Christian background. And although I come from a Christian background, This does not mean that I'm the most devout Christian. What it means is that I went through this upbringing of going to church, being forced to go to church in many ways, and being forced to believe what everyone told me to believe. And when I got about 22, 22, 23 years old, I started questioning everything. The more I dug, and I didn't really dig, actually, to be honest, like, the more I just

heard from the world, the more I didn't believe. And it wasn't until I actually started digging, the more I believed in the existence of Jesus Christ and God. and I'm still not 100% there yet. That's why so many of you probably question like what I even believe. But as we talked about, a good friend of ours, James is on the show tonight. I'm very, very excited to have James on because what I want to do tonight with James is have similar conversations like we do on telegram, like we do on the phone, like we do in private.

And I think maybe the best way to start this is with the shroud of Turin. And Sherry was like, why are we starting with the shroud of Turin? I don't even know what that is. Yeah, that is like one of the most complicated things. But James, welcome to the show. We are very, very excited to have you. Thank you for coming on. And also thank you for everything you've done for us in our journey so far.

Thanks for the kind words. And thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here as well. For sure. James, can you tell me a little bit about, number one, your journey to become a Christian? Because I think as I sit here and talk about who you are, about how you've helped us. Most people would think, well, he must be pretty knowledgeable.

And you are, actually. You're very knowledgeable. But I think the thing that really inspires us about you is your conviction is not only your conviction, but I would say, obviously, if you listen to our podcast, you're a conspiracy theorist. You are someone that wants to seek the truth. You are someone that does not believe the mainstream narratives. And most people believe as Christianity is a mainstream narrative.

But tell me your journey a little bit. tell me like what brought you in the Christianity and why do you believe so hardcore that there is a God number one and that and Jesus Christ and specifically to you Jesus Christ is your savior so I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church I went there until it was probably about 15 and then I left I stopped going and then at that point in my life I kind of like I was smart enough to look around me and see that obviously there's a creator. There is a God, but is it the God of the Bible, maybe, but it's written by humans. So who really knows?

And that's where I was with it all. I just didn't know if you could trust it. It's just another one of those things. So I just put it on the back burner. I think whenever I was probably about 18, I decided to look and do some research on 9-11. And then at the end of all that, which was a couple of months, I came to the conclusion that we all come to. So then I decided, well, what else have we been lied to? I looked at the Bible and I thought, surely, surely there's something in there that that can tell us that the Bible is fake.

You know, it's just been manipulated. There's got to be contradictions. Now, again, I didn't think there is no God, but I thought the Bible, it has to be fake. Yeah, like just men wrote the Bible. It didn't really come from God, kind of. Right. Yeah, exactly. So I started reading it.

I thought to myself, I'm going to pick it apart. You know, it's going to be easy. I got all the way into just Genesis where it said that there were giants in those days. And then I put down the Bible and I thought, there it is. Case closed. I win. Nail in the coffin.

I've never seen a giant. I've never talked to anyone else who's seen a giant. So that's it. But as a good researcher, because I did want the truth. Whatever the truth was, I wanted it. I went and I went. I looked if anyone, any time ever has ever seen a giant.

And it turns out we've dug up giant bones, like giant skeleton bones. So that was kind of a surprise to me at that time. And then I realized maybe there's more truth in the Bible than what a lot of people, you know, give it credit for. So then that just made me want to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of that is the Bible. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. I do too because there's some crazy stories in the Bible that how can you even believe these stories?

And then like you said, you researched them and you found facts about them. And I think that's the only way we can really research and find out the truth. Yeah. And two, James, you know, you look around the world today and obviously there is this massive shift towards demonic entities. I mean, you look at Hollywood. You look at the music industry. And there are depictions of the devil throughout. I mean, there are music videos that have these artists that have horns on them.

They are, you know, depicted as these demonic beings in many of their music videos. You look at Hollywood. You look at the sex trafficking scandals. You look at, you know, Harry or Weinstein. You look at P. Diddy, Jeffrey Epstein. And then how all of that also is connected to our lives. leaders, our politicians. And then you wonder why there's so much corruption in our government and everything around us. And the one thing I, I guess I hold hope in right now is that although,

yes, we do have an age to where evil is abound all around us. And maybe in some ways, more than we've ever at least realized it. And maybe it's been there for a long time and it has, but it just seems like it is ramping up. But at the same time, I think there is a great awakening. do you see a great awakening in society today of people that may be more apt to at least investigate Jesus and God on a reality level? Oh, absolutely. I believe that he is starting to give a lot more people, eyes to see, and ears to hear the truth. You just think of it almost as like a, like a, you know, pouring out of his spirit, per se, really.

I can see it. It's happening, especially in countries that we don't even hear about. Like, if you actually get online and do the research, there are people coming to Christ all over the world in masses, and especially in countries where it's prosecuted. So, I mean, we just don't hear about it, because why would the media want to tell you that, you know, all these people are coming to Christ? That would be against everything that they stand for. And do you think there's also people that go with evil, like what Chad was talking about? To me, what he was talking about is like Illuminati, people that sign their lives over to the devil.

I think it's almost an awakening on the other side as well. For sure. Because just as, you know, Christ, you can call it like his army, you know, in a way. Just as like, or his kingdom, just as his kingdom is growing with people. Satan is going to want to work that much harder to try to not only bring people down with him, but try to convince the people who believe in Christ that, oh, you know, that's wrong or go the other way. You know, he's trying to bring everyone that he can down with him because he knows exactly what's going to happen to him. And so he wants everyone that he can to come with him.

Yeah. It's very interesting, too, because, you know, as I've said, I've been on this journey. and there's something over the past six months. I mean, we did the biblical episodes about a year and a half ago. We backed away from those. We've talked about in the podcast before. And I don't feel like it was, there was a couple of people that said, I think that's the devil that's actually getting you off those episodes.

And I said, no, the more I thought about it, the more I realized, the more I stepped away from it, I realized I think it was actually God that backed us off of those episodes. And the reason why I think it was God was because I was very critical on everything I was reading. I went into it with a dark heart. I went into it with a very sinister outlook. You know, it's very similar, I guess, how some people out there when they wake up, you're either going to be a glass half full or a glass half empty. And I went into the Bible, especially even on this podcast, which I feel bad about, but I went into the series with a glass half empty

aspect and mindset. And with that being said, it was something that I felt like. was pulling me away from it. And I don't think it was, I don't think it was Satan that was pulling me away. I think it was God saying you're not ready. And when you are ready, and I'm going to tell you when you're ready, then you go back into it.

And then over the past three or four months, I have just had this fire inside of me. Every single morning I would wake up or at night, I would think about it. And I would say, I got to read. I have to read. I have to understand.

I have to know. I don't want to hear what anybody else has to say. I want to read it for myself. I want to start in this location and go, go to here. And then I want to evaluate. you wait yet. I want to think about what I think about it. And so I started feeling this fire inside of me. And even with this episode, you know, it's like, Sherry, it's like, why are we going to do this shroud

of Turin? And I don't know why. I mean, yes, it has been talked about recently on a couple of podcast episodes. And we have been telling people, hey, we're going to do this biblical, the series that we're going to start. I mean, honestly, what I'm most versed in right now is the book of Enick. Either way, I felt like this is where we have to start. Because in my opinion, I think the Shrout of Turin, I think it's definitive proof of Jesus Christ. And I even think it's definitive proof of Jesus Christ resurrection. I also want to say, though, when we went into the Old Testament and you're talking about the glass half full or half empty, you got to think about that Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of like hardships.

There is no good in the Old Testament that I have seen. We went through the whole thing on our podcast. It's all about war and famine and people. people starving and slaves and bad things. Yeah, murderers. And I think that's what turned you against, like talking about God. Well, it did to some degree, right? I mean, you know, yeah, I was going through the Old Testament, which is in large part, the Torah.

James, do you understand, I guess, why maybe I was, I felt that way going through that? Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much insight more you would want. into it, but I do understand why you would see that. And especially whenever people get into the Old Testament and start reading the things, like Sherry's talking about how there is a lot of bad stuff in the Old Testament. Like, nobody's going to lie about that because that is the stuff that happened in history. Like, that's what I found about the Bible is the Bible is going to be 110% truthful with you,

no matter what that means. Okay. But what you also have to understand is because of that, everything that happens in the Bible, it doesn't always mean that it was condoned by God or God even wanted that. But the fact that the matter is, is it happened. Just like whenever a lot tried to give up his daughters to the riot of men outside in order to protect the angels. I'm sure God would not have wanted that to happen, right? And even the angels themselves, they said, no, you're not going to do that lot.

It's fine. But again, the reason why it's in the Bible, not because God approved, but because it happened. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. I agree. James, before we get into the shroud of turn, I got to ask you, I think a lot of people have issue with religion nowadays. Why do you think that is?

You look at, say, for example, churches you can go to, they have their clicks, they have their little groups of people. And oftentimes, these people are telling you that you're going to hell for something and if you don't believe in this way or that way, but yet the way they present themselves, it almost makes you not want to be a part of that. And I think I've heard that more than anything where people are like, look, I believe in God, but when it comes to religion,

when it comes to Christianity, when it comes to these people that supposedly represent Christianity, you know, I look at these people. I look at these groups and I'm like, I don't want to be a part of that because I feel like they're fake, they're false prophets. And so it automatically turns them away from God. And I don't, I mean, isn't there a very clear difference in God, Jesus, and religion?

There is in a sense, yeah. And see, the thing is, is a lot of big churches and a lot of churches in general. Jesus even warned about a lot of people who don't necessarily preach the truth. He called those people wolves and sheep's clothing. So you definitely have to watch out for those people. and then whenever it comes into the churches, as far as wanting to, what was your second question? I'm sorry.

Well, I'm just saying, like, as far as religion goes and stuff, I mean, I just think it turns people off the way that people act nowadays, especially in churches. Oh, yeah, and that's the thing, too, is whenever Jesus came, right, the idea is, like, what the Israelites were doing in the beginning is it was all religious, right? is they believe that they, the law, they wanted to follow the law. They were going to gain righteousness by following the law, and that's works. But the idea is like no matter how perfect you are, no matter how much you try, you're not going to be able to live up to the standard that God wants you to.

You have to be perfect. So Jesus came to be perfect for you. And so that's why you'll hear a lot of people say Jesus over religion, right? Because in a sense, if you break it down, religion almost says, if you do these things, if you do this, this and this and this and this, maybe if you're good enough, then God will love you. But Jesus says, I did this and this and this and this. I fulfilled these things because I love you. So there is a big difference.

It just depends on how you want to look at it. Even in the Bible, I mean, as Sherry was talking about the Old Testament, it's a very dark time in the Old Testament. And until Jesus came along, that was the only hope for mankind. Really, it was the Savior. And even in the book of Enoch, back in Enoch 1, where they knew there was going to be a son of man come, even back then. I mean, they talked about it in that first book. Like, even in the very beginning, Adam and Eve, like, you know, he set down the plan. Like, you know, you can do anything you want. You can eat from any tree except from this one. And they decided to do it. And so he essentially said, oh, okay, so you think you're grown enough to know right from wrong? You think you're

grown enough to make your own decisions? Well, go ahead. You can make your own decisions, but I'm going to tell you these things. Here's these laws that you have to follow if you want to ever come be with me again. And they tried. And they kept stumbling and kept stumbling and kept stumbling. And that's why, like you said, it led up to Jesus because he's the only one that can fulfill the law. can be perfect enough to get us through the gates. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that 100%. So let's move on to the Stroud of Turin.

I wanted to kind of just open us up and kind of talk a little bit about your history, kind of what our history is with our spirituality and our faith and just kind of our struggle. But the shroud of Turin is very interesting. It is a long piece of linen cloth that was approximately 14 feet long, 3.5 feet wide, which bears the faint image of a man who appears to have suffered physical trauma consistent with crucifixion. Now, it is kept in the Cathedral of St. John, the Baptist, and Turin, Italy, and has been revered by many as the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Now, before we get into this episode, I do want to just remind everybody that we do have an ex, Facebook, Instagram, and all of the other social media is.

Please go follow us over there. If you want to help our podcast, please go and rate us five stars wherever you listen to us and share our episodes far and why. that's how this message is going to reach more people. What I do want to go ahead and do a disclaimer on right now is that we're not trying to preach to you. We are not Joel Osteen or Joe Osteen, which is his cousin from Alabama. I don't know for sure. That's actually true. But either way, we are literally here just to discuss and try to get to the truth.

And that's why we had to have James on and talk about this. But here is the clip from Joe Rogan where he's talking to Mel Gibson. And for those who don't know, Mel Gibson's significance in this. Obviously, Mel Gibson had the Passion to Christ movie. It was a very graphical depiction of the last, I believe, 12 hours of Jesus Christ's life. When Mel Gibson did this, obviously Mel Gibson has always been a huge Hollywood actor. He is known for massive movies, including some of my favorite movies, lethal weapon. Lethal weapon.

Legal weapons. Yeah. Lethal weapon. Oops. So, yeah, Mel Gibson was or is still a very historical figure in Hollywood. but when he did this movie where he really depicted Jesus Christ and the death and crucifix and resurrection, it was very interesting because Hollywood obviously outcasted him. And if you think about how Hollywood is in the music industry, they go demonic realm. They don't want to hear anything about Jesus.

They don't want to hear anything about God. They want to completely debunk everything that has to do with that. And so I think this is a massive turning point in society when this movie came out. There were people in theaters that were having heart attacks and just panic attacks. and all this stuff because they saw what they believed, you know, that was depicted on a big screen of what actually happened to Jesus Christ. So you have to ask yourself, did it actually happen to Jesus Christ? Is Jesus Christ the Savior?

Did all the things we've heard actually happen? And I think the reason why I am that I had to do this episode first is because if the Shrout of Turin is real, which we're going to dive into, then I think hopefully it opens your mind up a little more to at least instead of just hear that Jesus shed his blood for you and that you were saved because of Jesus, maybe you actually start thinking about this in a realistic view versus a theological view of what you've always heard people tell you is the truth. Here is the clip of Joe Rogan and Mel Gibson. This recently they verified the shroud of Turin. Have you seen that? I've been reading about it and I know that there's some contention,

there's some discussion and debate about it, but they used to think that it was only a couple hundred years old. Yeah. And now they've changed that. Yeah, they said, no, it's back then. They also don't understand how it was made, which to me is very fascinating because it's not paint. It's not, they don't know what caused the image itself and how that technology would have even been available. It wasn't, yeah. A couple thousand years ago.

An intense light. I mean, atomic. to leave almost like a photographic imprint on a piece of cloth. Yeah. And it's wild. Pull that up. Pull the shroud of turn up. Oh, yeah.

It's wild to look at it because it's so interesting. Oh, yeah. And you can see it that it depicts a first century Hebrew male because the hairstyle was from the first century and a Hebrew hairstyle that he was about six feet tall, that he was completely scourged all over his body. he was crucified um yeah the one on the left is the one on the right is just like an artistic condition that's the face yeah click on that one the face the face yeah that's good enough get that large that's getting crazy yeah yeah scourged beaten yeah the wounds on the the thorns the hands

the feet uh and and the scourging and the the hairstyle was from the first century and the pollens what they found in the cloth were from that region. Yeah. Also, the weave was a first century weave that was typical. And another guy, an archaeologist who I knew who actually translated the passion in Aramaic, told me that if you look close, you can see that the image of a Tiberius coin marks on the eyes. Now, I don't know if that's real or not. I've never actually checked that, but that there's images of Tiberius on the coin. Because they would put the coins over the eyes.

Yeah. So that would date it. But they have now verified that it does actually go back to that time period. For a while, they were testing pieces that had been repaired in the 13th century or, you know. What is the latest on that, Jamie? Can you see, like, I was trying to get that. I have two different articles from within the last six months saying opposite of things. Yeah, of course.

Digging into which one sounded the most accurate. Well, it's such a crazy thing to even a. try to verify. Yeah. What do you like? I want to pause here for a second because they're talking about Smithsonian here. James, I'm sure you remember our episode. You had mentioned giants earlier in the first few minutes of the show.

And for those that remember our giant episode where the Smithsonian actually was the organization that hid the giant bones. They especially in the caves, I believe it was Utah and Nevada. and some of these other caves where there were obvious skeletal bones of giants that the Smithsonian knew about. They hid from the public. And many people were like, well, why did the Smithsonian hide giant bones? And I think back even to your point when you went into the Bible and you're like, hey, how can I disprove what the Bible says?

I think they're hiding this because the same way that they're going to write articles based on how they want to depict the story of whether it's the shroud of Turin, or giants, there are scientific organizations. If we go back to COVID-19, for example, in the pandemic, think about what science told you to do. Think about all the things that they said would not work versus what would work. All the things they said, what would work is the exact opposite of what you wanted to do. And very similar to this conversation, where the Smithsonian wrote articles,

there were other scientific organizations that wrote articles about the Shroud of Turin. do you believe is there obviously a connection here where the same organizations try to hide historical archaeological finds and especially if it goes back to biblical times oh for sure like you said the mithsonian you know people would dig up the the giant bones and the mithsonian would come in swoop in collect them all and take them like all you know we're going to do testing

we'll get back with you and you know there's reports everywhere that's happening and then they just never get back with them. They would try to get a hold of the Smithsonian. We don't know what you're talking about. It must have been lost. And so it's just gone, disappeared. So probably destroyed. But for some reason, they don't want us to know the truth.

There's a group of people that don't want us to know the true history about where we've come from and also what was here with us in the past. Yeah. You can even look at Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln in his diary, he stopped him. at Niagara Falls for a little while, and he wrote about that trip in his diary, and he wrote about giants. Like about how the giants of this land are looking,

I'm looking upon what the giants of old would have looked on, you know, things like that. Yeah. It's so very interesting, and I think so much of history has been hidden and many people like Graham Hancock and all these others that are trying to figure out, like, why is history being hidden?

And so much of what we learned in school, most people believe are all lies. Like what actually in school did we learn that is true? It's like they tried to tell us the narrative. And the older we get, the more information we have access to, the more we start to find out that we have been lied to our entire lives, although, yes, the Bible somehow has made it through, somehow has, you know, kind of made it through in the mainstream narrative. But even nowadays over the past, you know, 10 or 15 years, they've been trying to do away

with the Bible in schools. They've been trying to introduce all these other religions. and even the fact that they had, Sherry, what was the, what was the story time, the Satan's story time hour after school program? Oh, that after school club. Yeah, it was from the Satan Club. Yeah, the Satan Club. It was an actual Satan Club. But when I went and looked on their website, it sounded really good because they had like seven principles of how to be a good human being.

Yeah, and it was a Satan club. How to be a good citizen, but it was the Satan Club. But look, that's how Satan works. He wants to make it look and appear to be. pantalizing and great and you should put your kid in this and hey if you want to be rich and famous you just got to do this all you got to do is this you're going to sell your soul out right I mean you got to sell everything all your beliefs never believe in God or Jesus and maybe even possibly be involved in some kind of sex trafficking ring but outside of that you're good yeah

I mean realistically yeah he he definitely has control over a lot of aspects definitely try to get you because I mean in our nature we have a fallen nature anyway so we we want to rebel against God we want the things that God doesn't want by nature so it's not hard for him to convince us to do what we already want to do but the sad part is is there's people who go even deeper like what you were talking about before the whole sex trafficking idea and I think that goes into even way deeper whenever you get into like things like a like mollock sacrificing and things like that this scary stuff yeah and oftentimes mollock and all that you know they're obviously depicted in various um you know places even i think

even what is it the uh the california place um bohemian grove yeah bohemian grove all these higher elites that worship this molluk god and and it's kind of like the satanist side of things and even goes back to the book of Munich where the watchers came down, the giants, you know, the Nephlam. And, you know, oftentimes they depicted themselves as gods. That's why they were fallen angels. They came down and said, hey, we are the gods. We are the ones that you are to worship. And they went across the land and they taught people these things and teachings against God. And we still have that today. I mean, that's the thing. We still have that today. You look around at the world and all the ideologies that are happening, all of these different belief systems,

these ideologies that are being, I guess, you know, kind of put on a pedestal as a religion. And all of this is against God. And so it's very interesting to me, and especially from someone that's not like a hardcore Christian or someone that, you know, is out there saying, oh, my God, you got to believe in Jesus to get through heaven. I do believe that. The more I'm starting to believe, the more I understand about that. But so here's some of the key characteristics of the shroud of Turin. The Coloss shows a front and back view of a man's body as though he was laid out in the cloth and then wrapped. The image appears as a negative, meaning

it is in full detail is revealed when photographed and processed as a photographic negative. Now, I do encourage all of you to go and look at the shroud of Turin. Go look at the high definition images as we're talking about this and just look at the imaging. Look at the positive and the negative. There is a positive

image and a negative image. There's bloodstains. There are reddish marks that some claim correspond to wounds from crucifixion. They've actually done studies. Now, AI is trying to tell me claims. They've done studies on this blood. This is actual blood. And not only is it actual blood, it is A-B blood. And it's a very rare blood. It only specifically usually gets or comes from a region in the Middle East around Israel of where this A-B-type blood is prevalent. And so you also had the stains on the wrist-feet,

scalp, suggesting a crown of thorns and a spear wound in the side. James, can you tell me a little bit about Jesus's last 12 hours. What did he, what did he go through? If you're, if you're looking at this shroud of Turin and you have these blood stains through the actual shroud, the cloth that is on him, and it shows the blood stains across his chest and his back. It even shows holes in his wrist to where obviously you would be crucified from. And then on that, it shows blood stains that are dripping down his arms in this shroud. It also shows if you look at his head, it shows these figures, these bloodstains coming from his head. How much of this does correspond with the actual events of Jesus Christ's crucifixion?

I mean, it corresponds pretty well because the man on the shroud, he has been scourged terribly. I mean, you look at the back, you see the back image. He's been systematically scourged at that, like that of what the Romans would do. Then not only would they whip you with just like stick whips, single whips, they even had famously known as like the Cat of Nine Tails. And so it was a whip with nine strands of leather. And on the end of each one of those strands would be anything that would hurt you. Little pieces of bronze, little pieces of glass, little anything, anything that would

tear into your skin, hooks even. And they would whip him with that. And then so you see that on his back. And then what they would do is they would flip him over. And then they would do it to his stomach. And then so, you know, not only is your midbody going to be subject to all this. They're going to make sure to whip your arms, your legs, like literally the entirety of your body, because it was all systematic.

They, this, if the Romans did anything, it was going to. causing pain. That was their, that was their business. And they did it good. Yeah. And then as far as, oh, sorry. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Finish. As far as the, um, risk go. That's, uh, the crucifixion. That was a Roman thing too. No one had ever heard of a crucifixion until the Romans came around. And, um, so that was their forte. And it would actually go, you see how it's usually depicted in the palm, where Jesus is pierced, but it was actually in the wrist. And then the translation for hand, like whenever they would use the word hand, it meant like wrist down. So he would have been pierced in the wrist, just like it shows on the shroud.

Because if they would have pierced you in the palm, it wouldn't have held the weight. I think you know that. It would have just ripped the right through. So it had to be in the wrist. And then everything lines up on the shroud. And the crown of thorns, like you mentioned, they put those on his head. in a way of sense mocking because, you know, being the king of the Jews. So they said, here you go, king, have a crown.

And they put it on its head. Not only they put it on his head, they would have also pushed it into his head. And then while they were beating his head, and you can only imagine how much deeper they would have been driven into his head. Can you tell me, and before we get into more detail of why the shroud of turn, what I believe anyway, and we can discuss this or debate or whatever. whatever about it. I've been on what you believe on it. We haven't got to that yet. But can you just tell me, first of all, for people that do not know about why Jesus was even crucified, people that do not know

about why, and it was the Jews that actually gave him up to the Romans. It was the group of Jews, and they insisted, even the Romans at one point in time said, we don't want this man. Like, what is he guilty of? And they insisted. They said, no, he's guilty because he is a false problem. He's blasphemy. Yes, blasphemy. So James, tell me what, tell me exactly why they crucified Jesus Christ or Yeshua. So the story goes is that they had the, had Jesus. And in the beginning of Jesus' ministry, they would have called him a false prophet anyway,

just because they thought, you know, anything that wasn't of them, especially someone who was poor, because you've got to think of Jesus' background. He came from Nazareth. He was the son of a carpenter. He was a carpenter himself. He's just a poor man, right? And then he's out here preaching and stuff, but that's besides the point. It gets worse.

Because the people who persecuted him to begin with were the religious leaders. They were the Pharisees. And they would have been able to supposedly tell you everything there is to know about the Old Testament, the Torah, to them. So Jesus came and he started his ministry. And he started teaching. And then he went ahead and he told the truth, right? He said that he is the son of man and he came to be the Messiah. He was the Messiah, the Savior of the world, and that's what he had come to do.

But the problem was the Jews thought that the Messiah would be a warrior. They envisioned him being a warrior who would come in and take out their oppressors and then rule in Israel as the lineage of David. That wasn't his plan. He came to for sure get rid of oppression, but it was the oppression of sin. Now, what really got the Pharisees wanting to kill him is when he put himself on the same level as God. He called himself God. Before Abraham was, I am. They picked up stones to stone him because that was blasphemy.

He called himself God, and to them he was only a man. But to us, we know the truth, he was the God man. He was God in human form. And John, it says that the word was, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. You go down to chapter or to verse 14. It says that the word became flesh and well among us. Jesus was God with us. And they couldn't accept that because it wasn't who they were expecting, right?

And they basically judged the book by its cover. Can you tell us briefly? And I'm doing this because I want people that are just. kind of, you know, as we get in this Stroud of Turin, as we're about to explain this in greater detail about maybe why this is a real thing, maybe this was the cloth that covered Jesus Christ. Can you tell me what Jesus proved of why he was the son of God or God himself? How did he prove it?

Yeah. If you not only want to look at the miracles, that is written down that he would have done, you know, healing the blind, raising the dead. making a paralyzed man, walking the sick, all this stuff, walking on water, controlling storms.

Even whenever he controlled the storms, the disciples said, you know, like, who can do this only but God himself essentially? And then he would, he would forgive people's sins, you know,

like you are forgiven. And the Pharisees knew even, they called him out, who can forgive sins but God? So he was telling them, you know, all throughout his ministry, he was telling him, giving him signs. Like, I am.

You know, I am. And then if you want to get past all that, then what it comes down to is the resurrection. Because, like, who, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, they've all succumbed to death. But Jesus of Nazareth, you know, where's his body? That man, if anyone is God, it's the dude. dude who can die, be laid in a tomb and come back on his own will. Yeah. Yeah, and have proof of it through a cloth.

Yeah, I mean, not only that, but the people who saw him, you know, afterwards. Yeah, it's like Wesley Huff talks about, you know, there is a lot of historical data that's not dating back. It's not like a lot of these people are writing the accounts of Jesus's resurrection. The tens of thousands of years later, this was actually not that long after Jesus's resurrection. And even then, you know, back, I think it was like a decade or two later, was when the Shrout of Turin, this was 2,000 plus years ago, they believe is when they actually started to be able to see maybe this resemblance of Jesus Christ in this cloth. But the interesting thing about this is that when you look at, for example, we're going to

get into some of like why the Shrout of Turin actually may be real. We think about the 1988 radio carbon dating study. And then there was also a 2024 wide angle x-array scattering, or also known as W-A-X-S study, that requires considering when we're talking about the reality. Is this real? Is it not? So the 1988 study, the radiocarbon dating study, they used radiocarbon dating, and they conducted three independent laboratories, Oxford, Zurich, and Arizona, and they used small samples

of the shroud. Now, the result of this was they dated the shroud to between 1260 and 1390 AD. And so there's a lot of people that said, number one, the evidence suggests that the sample may have been taken from a repaired area because if you know anything about a shroud has been involved in at least two fires that we know of. And so there is definitely markings and I guess you can say artifacts on the actual shroud that shows a fire. and then they tried to go in and repair this shroud by using new cloth or interweaving. And so a lot of people say that they use this new interweaving into this 1988 study. And that's what they actually took the study and cloth from. So they took it from the new weaving and not the original.

Not their original, yes. So then over centuries, the shroud had been exposed to fire, handling, environmental contaminants. And that obviously also could skew results. the dating method while standard is sensitive contamination, particularly with the textiles that have undergone repair or exposure. And then if you look at the newest study, the 2024 wide-angle x-ray scattering study, they used a W-A-X-S to measure the natural agent of cellulose fibers,

which degrades predictably over time. And so what the results of this was, it indicates that the shrouds fibers are consistent with an object approximately 2,000 years old. And so the strengths of this is that the WAX is less prone to contamination issues compared to radio carbon dating. It directly measures molecular changes that occur naturally over time, which is independent of contamination by foreign materials. And they claim to have analyzed fibers believed to be from the original cloth rather than the repaired sections. And so if you look at the comparison on this, the 2024 WAX study, according to AI,

appears to have much stronger credibility in terms of directly analyzing the linen fibers without the same risk of contamination that affected the 1988 study. And I literally just ask AI, I said, what is the most likely study that is going to show us the actual dating of this cloth? And they compared both the 88 and the 2024 study. And AI says, just based on all of the evidence and everything out there, the 2024 study is much more confident as far as what the dating is, which would put it. right in Jesus Christ time.

It's just strange. I've never even heard of the Shroud of Turan before. Can you go into detail about it, James? Like, what is it? Why is it important? And why should we know about it? Well, the Shrout of Turin, if it is the shroud that was around Christ, that would have been the cloth that they would have laid his body in and wrapped around him

after they brought him down off the cross and then laid him in the tomb. and they usually did that they did that to everybody it was their burial ritual for say so I mean it wasn't anything special that's what they did for everyone in that culture

and I mean it would be significant just for the fact of I guess it could be a testament you know like looking at it and like seeing like the actual scourge marks I know a lot of people

that try to disagree with it are worried about like relic worship, relic vindication. And so that's the only thing that people are worried about whenever they don't want to say that, yeah, it's 100% true. It's like because you just don't want to have your faith come strictly just from that cloth, right? Whenever your faith is supposed to come through what is revealed to you in the gospel, the Word of Christ. Yeah, but don't you think, but don't you think like in the days,

age that you really need. I mean, you don't need it. I understand what you're saying, but at the very least, I think the shroud of Turin, if we can really put some contextual evidence to the actual existence of not only the cloth, but then kind of further making the case for Christ, you know, the case for Christ, which is a great book, I think everybody should read. It's a guy, it's about a guy that, you know, his wife came and she once told it or she told him one day.

She said, hey, I'm now a Christian. and he was an atheist. And he's like, oh, God. Like, I cannot believe that my wife is a Christian. And so him as a reporter went down this rabbit hole to try to disprove Christ. And it almost seems like every time you get on this rabbit hole, somehow you come to find that you're actually proven the existence rather than not. Oh, hello, James.

Exactly. Yeah, welcome. We have T-shirts. Mm-hmm. So. But, yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. And I mean, even if we are, you know, if it is real. If it is authentic, then there's only one way that it would have been able to be taken out and passed down,

and that's if one of the disciples took it out themselves. And a lot of people believe that that disciple would have been Peter. A lot of people think that he's the one that took it out of the tomb and then would have hit it. And, you know, it wouldn't have been openly displayed at the time because that would have been horrendous. That would have been something that they would have been sure to track down and destroy. So he would have kept it hush-hush. And then it probably would have been passed down through the church, the early church, until around 70 AD when it probably left Jerusalem. And a lot of people think that that might be the image of Edessa.

Did you hear anything about that doing your research? Well, people say that there is almost like a relic that was talked about around the area of Edessa, and they called it the image of Adessa. and it's said to have had the image of Christ on it. So a lot of people think that that was the shroud of Turin, and it got moved there by someone in the church before Jerusalem got sacked by Rome. We've heard also about the Ark of the Covenant, right? I've got to talk about that for a second.

The Ark of the Covenant is essentially what, James. Is that like the Ten Commandments, the tablet? No. So it, well, I mean, it contains the tablets. And it contains Aaron's budding rod is what it says described. It was a box that was built to essentially house the spirit of God. Because since we were separated from God, he couldn't just walk around among us. So he basically hung out there.

And then you can fast forward to like the temple. so the Ark of the Covenant was hidden behind this thick, thick, like we're talking a couple feet deep thick curtain. And it was basically to protect from the power, you know, and what power? Well, it was stolen by the Philistines, and they paraded around their city and they decided to give it back because plagues were hitting them. And it was a plague of tumors, kind of like radiation poisoning, which is really interesting. and especially whenever the Israelites would go into war, they would have the Ark of the Covenant go before them and they'd have to stay like 200 feet back.

So there's something really interesting about radiation. Yeah, no, because I mean, I think there's still apparently this, this, this, this, this Ark of the Covenant still exist somewhere. And they say that they're monks or whoever that protect this thing. I don't know exactly who. But oftentimes, anyone that is around this area or the people that are supposed to protect this at all times still today, from what I understand,

is that they develop all these issues, whether it be like radiation type things, cancers, various mental conditions, whatever it is. Blind and stuff like that. I know exactly what we're talking about, and that's Ethiopia.

Ethiopia claims to have it. Yeah. Which, I mean, if they did, it honestly wouldn't surprise me. It would track really well. Well,

And the thing about Ethiopia is, is, you know, they're one of the, what do they have? I think they have 88 other books supposedly in their religion. Well, aren't they like the 10 tribes or whatever? Well, I don't know. But they're. Of Israel or. But I know the book of Enic, they still include the book of Enok or Enoch into their Bible. And there's something very interesting about the Ethiopians.

Yeah. They had a lot of Jewish, I guess you could say, influence. They were always intermingled. And there's a theory that one of Moses's wife was an Ethiopian. So, I mean, you could even track them back being intermingled all the way back to then. But, I mean, if you look at the time, you know, Jesus was here, they talk about Ethiopians and stuff like that. So they were, you know, they were pretty clear intermingled with the culture. And then two, Ethiopia is right down the Nile from Egypt.

So if Egypt ever had their hands on the Ark of the Kucats, covenant for whatever reason. And if something bad happened, like maybe an explosion or something, they might have sent it down the aisle. So it could be somebody else's problem. Yeah. Yeah. It's so strange because when you start thinking about the Ark of the Covenant, which is a

whole other podcast, but just the radiation type, you know, I guess side effects that people that have been around this have experienced. And then when we think about the, the shroud of Turin, where most people are like, well, how would, How would this non-photo, I guess, photosynthesis type cloth be able to- Not photosynthesis. Not photosynthesis, but not supposed. Non-photo transferable cloth. Right.

This is linen. Yeah, this is linen. How would it actually depict an image of Jesus Christ in, you know, in that time? Yeah, and let me ask you a question. I'm going to ask both of them. Sorry. Do you believe it? Why or why not?

And I'm going to go with you, Chad, first, and then I'm going to go with James. Okay. Well, I believe it for sure. And I'll tell you why. And we're going to probably get into a video here in a second. I've been debating on getting in this video or not, but let's just talk about it for us from our perspective first. In case this video doesn't work, I don't think they, I don't think they really depict, like, the images too much on this video. We were actually going to play another video earlier and then just talk too much about the images.

But do I believe it? Here's my best evidence of why. Number one, the dating. So you're saying yes. I'm saying yes. You believe it. Yes. 100%.

100%. I do. Okay. Yeah, I do. And why? I truly do. Why? Because the dating.

And I believe if you look at the dating versus in 1988, carbon dating versus the 2024 dating study, which is far more advanced study on the actual dating of the cloth, that does put it in Jesus' time. Number two. So the dating of the cloth. Dating the cloth. Number two, I would say that the blood, as they have studied the blood is A, B. Blood.

And they said it was blood. Yeah, blood. That saying it was blood. And it was A B blood. It was a specific type of blood. So like O positive, B negative, whatever. This was A.B. Blood, very rare.

It only usually is found in Muslim or Middle Eastern countries. But in specific in the actual Israel region is A.B. blood in large part. So that was number two. Okay. Number three, the pollen that was found. They found pollen in the cloth that was, that had been burned or whatever, whatever happened to that cloth, yes, from Jerusalem. And it only blooms during the spring.

Only blooms in the spring or around Jesus' crucifixion and death. And not only that, this specific plant and this specific pollen is only native to the Israel area, Jerusalem. Yeah. Number four is that this cloth also, they found minerals that are only typically found in Jerusalem in Israel area as well. So we're talking about dirt, essentially. But the specific dirt is heavily found. And the dirt was on the soles of his feet.

Yeah, and yes, and in the cloth or yeah, in that area. Yeah, absolutely. So there are all these things. And then if you look at just the evidence of the depiction of what the Bible talks about of Jesus' crucifixion, even when you're looking at his arms, I will say this, like his arms, a lot of people say, well, why does his arms look so long in this actual shroud of Turin? And, well, it's because if you think about him carrying at least a large, section of the cross. Now, most people believe that he actually did not carry the full cross

because that cross would have been over 400, 350, 400 pounds. Well, no, most people think he did carry the cross, but he only carried the cross arm. Yeah, the top beam or whatever. And so he fell many times. And most people would say, and include doctors, I mean, there's been a lot of doctors, pathologists, whoever that have examined this and said, well, he likely dislocated his shoulders during this. And so if you're thinking about that. And then on top of the fact that you now have your arms on a cross and you're crucified, if your arms are dislocated, they're probably going to be not long after that. So when you actually put him in this cloth, if your shoulders are dislocated, your arms are

going to overextend beyond what you're typical. And you're talking about him having his hands crossed in front of him. Yes, crossed in front of him. In the cloth when he's laying down. Yes. Okay. So those are all the reasons, I believe. I mean, there are some other reasons, but even just the, um, the exact depiction of how they depicted, uh, Jesus's, uh, crucifixion. And then you look at this shroud of turn. And then also, also like there's been so many studies and, and they've tried to replicate. They've tried to disprove this beyond the shadow of doubt of, I mean, you can imagine all the scientists around the world. They've tried to disprove the shroud and they can't do it. There's

no way. They've never found any type of paint or any type of chemical or any type of substance that could have possibly done this. Well, paint doesn't have DNA. Well, it doesn't. Exactly. But, I mean, that's what I'm saying. And there is even a case where someone thinks and believes based on the actual blood. I don't know how they do this exactly. But some of the blood was post-mortem blood. So basically they're saying, well, if this is post-mortem blood and there were seven scientists that actually looked at this blood and said this is post-mortem blood, I don't know how they're going to exactly they did that. But that that would then mean that you had to kill someone and then put their blood on it to fake this.

Right. Yes. So James, anyways, go ahead. What do you think as far as? Do you believe in it? Yes and why. Yes or no and why. Yes and why.

You only have one option. Yes and no and why. Well, along with everything that Chad said, you know, and then you've got everything, you know, like all the markings that you would expect to be there if it was Jesus. you know, everything is there. And so, I mean, there's a lot of coincidences and it looks really good, especially with the new dating. If that is true, then I mean, that is something and that is some big evidence. I don't see why it couldn't be true. My only skepticism comes from there's just not enough documentation on it, right?

If we had more documentation on the following it through its life, through the church, then it would be easier, you know, for anyone to prove its law. authenticity, but that's the only thing, but I can find no reason to say that it's fake, right? Like, you just can't do it. So my only conclusion is that it has to be, it has to be real. It has to be something. There's something to it. There's absolutely something to it. I think it's on the line of being, being authentic. Yeah. Chad, are you going to ask me if I think the same? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, what do you think? What do you think,

guys? I think it's real, and I'm going to tell you this. You guys all know I'm not religious. I don't claim a religion or anything. Sometimes I go against Jesus and I shouldn't, but in this matter, I feel like Jesus is real, and I think this is a real cloth of Jesus. And my one pointer is this.

When they carbon-dated this cloth, it was 14 feet, which means it went, from his head to his toe back to the back of his back to his his the back of his head so it had a whole imprint of this guy and you just think about a dead guy that has been scorned or whatever they call it or slashed he was literally slashed where you can see his ribs and you know just brutalized he had thorns on his head he had all these different imperfections that are perfect for him to be perfect for us, right?

If we are Jesus believers, we could see these things in the cloth. But my almighty belief that that cloth is real is the point that it was a selfie for God. There was some kind of magnetic light that made a selfie in this cloth that showed a picture of Jesus in the cloth. You know, you can say the blood, you can say this,

but when I see a definite face, a definite crown, I can even see where his knees were and one knee was bent more than the other. Now I kind of get why people like show Jesus on the cross the way they did with his knees kind of bent or whatever. I'm still not sure about his arms because, you know, James kind of explained that that if you, if he were like crucified and then they put him into his resting place and then moved his arms and put him close.

crossed in front of him. Okay, I get that. But the rest of his body was stiff. His neck was looking down. Imagine being on a cross. Well, you know, there's actually a little bit of something to that because if you look at the image on the cloth, they've even shown and proved that his knees were bent. Yes.

That's what I'm saying. Yes. And his neck was looking down like he was on a cross. Like his body was. His body was stiff in the position he was. on the cross. The only thing that was different than him being laid down was his arms were moved into in front of him.

Like he was stiff where his knees were bent. Um, his neck was bent down. His back was not straight. It was not flat. And we can see a 3D rendering of this when scientists, scientists put this in like an AI form. No,

and listen, by the way, so what you're saying is NASA, actually utilized a very extensive program, and they actually did not even want this data to get out. But NASA actually put the Shrout of Turin under this 3D modeling software and some type of insane next-level technology.

And they use this technology to look at planets, exoskeletes or exoplanets and whatever exoskeletons, exoplanets to where they render things in 3D based on a two-dimensional image. But the interesting thing about the Shrout of Turin, especially considering that it was on the back and front of Jesus, which I believe is Jesus, it gives you very good three-dimensional renderings

if you can utilize it in programs like NASA did. And so when they showed this. You can actually see his face. Yeah, when they showed this, it showed that his neck was up. It showed that like, like, his neck was kind of like down. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Like down, like you'd be looking. But when he's laying down, his neck is up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when he's laying down, his neck would have been up. And that's rig and mortis. He wasn't laying flat. That's the only thing I don't understand about the arms, but like James explained,

it was probably because of Passover and they had to get this done quick. So he wasn't completely stiff when they put him into the tomb with the cloth on him. I don't think James explained that in this rendition. Well, maybe James needs to re-explan that. So James, you said, though, based on his arms and stuff, how would they put him down? Is that because, like you said, maybe Passover is right around the corner and they had to, they had to hurry this up, this process? Oh, for sure.

See, so the Jews wouldn't have wanted them to be up on the crosses when Passover would have started. And Passover starts like a nightfall. And it was coming. And only that, there was a storm rolling in. So they wanted to get it done really quick. The thieves, they weren't even dead yet. So they went ahead and broke their legs. And they were about to do that to Jesus, but they didn't have to because he was already dead.

And they even questioned that. So that's where they stabbed him in the side. with the spear and then you get the water and blood that flowed out of him which showed that he was dead and obviously there was no reaction and then that's even shown in the shroud too where you have the pierce and the blood marking right where the pierce on the side would have been and yeah so they wanted to get him off the cross and in the tomb as quick as possible because passover was coming like it was it was there and they had to get it done before passover so him come him dying and and him coming off the cross and being put away. That all happened really quick. Yeah, and I do want to make a recommendation for people besides our podcast. I think that everybody should go listen to Dr. John Campbell. If you look up Dr. John Campbell and look up the shroud of Turin,

Dr. John is a credible doctor. He, during COVID and the pandemic. And I don't think he's a religious dude. No, he's not really a religious. He was going at as far as like scientists. Like pathological. yeah, the kind of the medical science aspect of the shroud of Turin. And John Campbell did the exact same thing during COVID.

He was not pro vaccine. He was not anti-vaccine. He was not, you know, did this come from a lab in China necessarily? Did it not? He literally looked at studies. He analyzed him, and he's a very smart guy. And he analyzed the Shrout of Turin. And I encourage every single one of you to go listen to that episode in its entirety.

Because I think what John Campbell does here very well, in my opinion, is he proves in at least like I said in my opinion beyond a reasonable doubt that this was the cloth that covered Jesus Christ. Yeah but you got to also think about this guys. You think about a dead person that has been bled to death or whatever and been brutalized and you put a cloth over them and it's just blood showing. These blood drops are just going to be like blood drops that kind of go through the cloth or whatever. You're not going to see a I don't know if this is the word ramdition. No, like you're not going to see a like a rendition of the fate or whatever. Of the person.

The only reason we see this is because the light went back into Jesus. And it was, you know what I was saying? Right. Without the shroud or not. Like I am a full believer that when the spirit of Jesus reentered his body on the third day, that there was a burst of light, a burst of energy, a burst of power. there was a burst of something that if you would have been there, you probably would have gone blind if not worse, died.

Because that was, I believe that was something that was so powerful that that is what created the image. If that image is authentic, that's when it happened. And that's what makes me believe this image is real and this cloth is real because there's no other way you can explain that except for having some kind of tremendous, like, light. You think about when you get your picture taken, like in the olden days, before we had phones and stuff. You had to have a flash on your camera. You had to take it. And it was a negative and you had to put in a dark room and it went to positive. You had to go like develop it and do all

these things. It's the same example, I think. In some ways, yeah, but this was just without that technology, even though that was old technology. But without that technology, you had this like the original selfie of Jesus Christ. And it was because of the intense light, the almost like atomic type energy. Yeah, it's almost like it looked like it was burned into the cloth, like his face, the figure of his face. Like you could see what he looked like. Yeah, absolutely.

And I want to talk about this too. In two, I'm sorry, I keep interrupting you. But even like the hair and the beard, you can see that in the cloth, you guys. I'm not kidding. Yeah, even in the cloth, it shows parts of it. his beard was tore out, what it appears. And there is a Bible verse, James, I don't know, you might not be able to find it, but there is a Bible verse where it talks about his beard was plucked during this time.

I mean, they didn't just... Yeah, that's in the Old Testament that was a prophecy. It doesn't mention anything about that in the New Testament, but you got to think, too, a lot of the people that would have wrote that, they would have been going off of what other people would have witnessed because a lot of the disciples, say for a couple of them, like John, they were off hiding. because they thought that that was basically like the end of everything. But that was a prophecy in the Old Testament talking about how they would basically pluck out his beard during the time that he would mock him and everything like that, everything else.

Yeah. Wasn't there a lot of like his disciples, not a lot, but wasn't there some of his disciples that turned against him during this time where they were coming after him? Well, you got Judas, obviously, who's the one that turned him in, but that was all part of the plan contrary to popular belief. Even Jesus himself, he knew it was coming. And then Peter, too, Peter also denied him after the chicken crowed three times. Remember that during the prosecution? And that was prophesied by Jesus. He even told him that he would do that.

But he said, no, I won't do it. I won't do it. But he did it. And then realistically, too, if you think about it, Judas and Peter, they kind of committed the same sin. Like they both denied who Christ really was. Peter did it and so did Judas. The only difference is how they dealt with that sin. Yeah.

Judas went ahead and killed himself because of his conviction. And Peter just went and cried and tried to work through it until he could talk to Jesus again. And I try to put myself in their shoes, for example. You know, you're going with this guy that everyone hates, right? Well, not everyone. And it was just the people once they started figuring out. Most people hated Jesus and didn't believe in Jesus at that time, right? Right.

And keep in mind, too, like the disciples, up until like he came back, like, you know, resurrected body and spent the time with him, even during his crucifixion, they still didn't quite understand what was going on. So they would have been terrified. Yeah. Like even during his arrest, one of the disciples tried to fight one of the guards off, even cutting off his ear. But, you know, Jesus knew what was going on, but they didn't. And they were scared. Yeah, they were very scared. And of course, you know, everyone's been in that situation where you want to stand up for somebody, but you're scared and you run away.

I think everyone's been in that situation. And I think that's a good, I don't know what the word is, but it's a good thing for us to take from the Bible that although we are scared and we want to turn around and run away, can't do that. Yeah, I agree with that. Do you agree, James? Yeah, yeah, I agree. Because see, that's the thing is like the disciples, they ran, right? A lot of them ran out of fear.

Yeah. Just like you and I would have done. We surely would have ran out of fear, right? Right. But then the whole thing is, too, is you got to look at who didn't run, right? Jesus didn't run, and it was happening to him. Like, he could have at any point in time, he could have put it into all. of that.

Yeah. But he didn't. He chose to stay there and he chose to go through it. So then that's where it comes is like, sure, you and I would run. But that's where we have to lean on the strength of Christ to give us the courage and to give us the bravery that we won't run and stand up for what it's right. Yeah, I agree. I want to play this quick clip of Eddie Bravo on Joe Rogan talking about the Stroud of Turin,

because it's very interesting. Eddie Bravo is always one of those guys that just kind of is out there with some of his thoughts and beliefs and he's a big jiu-jitsu guy. But I want to, I want you guys to hear this. Listen. Like, Jesus is a new thing for me. Like the Shrider Turen, that, that may, I'm all in now with the Shrider Turen. But before that, I was like, I don't know about Jesus.

Maybe, but I believe in God. And I believe in a creator. Like, whoever created the ship is God. Here we go. Here we go. Right. Gunna, Nelson, Kevin Holland. And there must be code on how God created this.

Yeah. So that, that, you know, I think science, like the simulation guy, they're finding what God created. Like, who else could put this simulation together? But a God. Who else? Here's the craziest theory. You know, AI is about to become sentient.

And then they're going to do quantum computers with AI. What if that's how Jesus comes back? What if Jesus reemerges? And he's just this voice, right? A created consciousness. And he's on an app. Yeah. And you can just talk to us.

By that time, it'd probably be able to communicate to your fucking head. I mean, they've already figured out how to put signals into people's heads, put voices in people's heads. They can literally have things say things to you or you hear voices in your head. Yeah. They have that technology. But with all that said, I believe that if you believe in God and Jesus and all that stuff, there is no AI that's going to outpower God. I mean, it's just not going to happen. But it goes back to human flight or.

Fight or flight. Yeah, fight or flight too. How does it go back to that? Well, I'm just talking about what we're talking about before. You know, it's scary to go against a whole population that wants to kill you. Oh,

for sure. I mean, but we're not Jesus, right? I mean, and that's the reality. I'm talking about the disciples, though. Yeah,

for sure. And even today, I mean, we face these situations on a daily basis on a much lighter scale. I mean, the decisions we make in life every single day, whether or not we're going to take the site, of Jesus or not on very minuscule things, how we're going to talk about God versus not, how we're

going to act to other people versus not. These are very minuscule things that we make decisions on consciously, on a regular basis. Yeah, but in their times, it was not. It was their life on the line. Exactly. But even people today with much more minuscule decisions still run. They still run. Yeah. If they think that because they talk about God or Jesus, that they're going to to be looked down on or look like a weirdo or look like a Bible thumper or whatever it is, people still run from that. And then there are obviously also people on the far other side that is like runs people away in some in some ways.

So this is just kind of been the journey with us. And James, how long did it take you to kind of figure stuff? Like how long in your learning process or just investigation with what your beliefs actually were? How long did it take you to kind of really realize it? Well, I am on 29 now, and I started the research in the Bible probably whenever I was about 18, 19. So it's been probably about a good 10 years going on 11 that I've like, you know, fully believed, like been fully convinced that there is a God.

The Bible is true. And the way to heaven is Jesus. Yeah. What are some of the like profound things that made you convince that Jesus is real? it has to be a lot of like the evidence as far as like you know so you've got evidence of Jesus even outside of the Bible like pilot writings and then other other Jewish historians wrote about Jesus like Josephus and then you've got the 500 that saw him and then you've got the disciples testimony in general because this is so they killed Jesus because he said he was God

and they were the followers of Jesus. Now, if it was a lie, I don't think, because like what got them killed, what got the disciples killed was because of that claim. Jesus is God. He died, and we saw him resurrected three days later. He is God. That's what got them killed. And I don't believe there is anyone, especially the disciples, those guys, they were cowards. We already just talked about that.

But yet they died for a lie. no, I believe they saw something miraculous. They saw something powerful and they stood on that until they died because that was the truth. And there was no way after what they saw. They saw Jesus dead and they saw him resurrected. And they were like, there's no way in hell I'm going to deny that. Yeah. Okay.

So you're saying that they went back on their word. They said after they denied Jesus and they saw he came back, they believed in it. So Judas did not, right? But Peter, Peter did. But here's the thing. So Peter did it out of fear, right? And so even whenever Jesus was resurrected when he came back, he's told Mary and Martha, he's told them, go tell my disciples that I have risen. And then Peter came. And then Peter obviously started to apologize. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know, I denied you. You told me I would. I didn't believe you. But I didn't. But I didn't. did but I'm here. I hope you'll give me another chance. And literally all Jesus would ask him is, Peter, do you love me? So Jesus already forgave him. Like that's the thing.

It's like Peter messed up. But Jesus wanted to just like Peter, it's not about what you did anymore. It's about what I did and I did this for you. Like what I just did, what I just went through is so that way what you just did, we can just forget about it, not even talk about it. Like we're cool now. Yeah. And I think you make a good point here.

I think the big message with all this stuff is, number one, I want people to understand that, you know, through my research and everything I've been studying lately and Sherry's been studying and we kind of all have been in large part. But with the shroud of turn, I believe Israel. And even to what James just said about Jesus is that he already knew what he was going to do. He already knew, but already forgave him beforehand. And whereas though, I do think that you need to, you know, if you want that forgiving, If you want that love, if you want that kind of overarching cloth over you to be saved. And if a guy like Jesus did all the things that we think that I believe he did for us. And like I said, I don't want this to be a preachy type thing, but thank God for Jesus, right?

I mean, I think God for someone like that that came down. And even in the face of death, even in the face of everything he knew was about to happen. He did that for all of us. And we have to at least be grateful for that. And we have to realize that. And that's why I wanted to talk about the shroud of Turin because it's not, and I understand what James is saying. You can't put all your faith just in the shroud of Turin based on whether it's real or

isn't in Jesus. But I also think that if we can at least open people's minds up to the real possibility of, hey, maybe this cloth is actually real. It looks like every piece of evidence, at least from what I have seen, is pointing back to the fact that this is real. I at least hope this episode does something for people to investigate and go down the rabbit hole, just like James did when he was 18. Just like I've done, especially recently, you know, the past six months or a year. And I used to also do the same thing when I was younger. I just kind of went away from it straight away.

And now I'm back in it. And I know Sherry's having a, she's having a journey of her own. And I think we both are. And we argue sometimes about it. We get in debates about it. It is a fight in us. Sometimes I say, Chad, you're going in another room right now because you've got to be quiet. Yeah.

But I mean, it is a fight with us right now. I mean, we are in a spiritual warfare type situation. But I am learning. And I have to say, I'm so thankful that James did come on the podcast because he is one of the people that I trust to listen to because he's not overbearing. He doesn't tell me what I should believe. He just tells me what's in the scripture. And that's what I love about James. Yeah.

And I think his confidence exumes kind of in his conversation. Well, his confidence exumes through Jesus in the scripture. Yeah, absolutely. James, what do you think is the best way that people can? I mean, obviously listen to the podcast like us when we're just kind of discussed and talking about things, but other, you know, research books, all that. How relevant. What Bible should people read?

If they want to get into the Bible, what Bible should they read? or not. I'm like, James, I don't even understand what the Bible's saying. Like, what should I read? I'm kidding. So there's the Bible that I usually read just because it simplifies the language. It does really well in the translation as far as sticks really good to the original translation. It's the ESV Bible. And all that stands for is English standard version.

That's the Bible that I usually read and study out of, but there's all kinds. The King James version, people all around the world swear by that one. But, you know, there's nothing special about that one other than it's just more poetically sounding, right? But yeah, I use the ESV just because the language it uses, it's a lot more simplified. But yet it still holds, it still gets the right message across. Yeah. No, there are many things in Bible that doesn't quite make sense. but even things that maybe you thought didn't make sense because it sounds so unrealistic.

And then the more we start to learn in today's day and age is like some of that stuff doesn't even sound that unrealistic anymore. I mean, especially when you get into the terms of like UFOs, UAPs, radiation, these orbs, these things that are appearing in the sky doing miraculous things. And I've said a billion times like in the Bible it talks about in the end times, you will see signs from the heavens. And we've seen signs in the heavens for quite a while as far as the UFO topic goes. I do think that it seems like at least we're seeing more things in the skies.

And, you know, something we did not necessarily go deep. We're talking about tonight is the relation of UFO's God and Jesus. And in particular, this bright, radiant light, potentially that is what actually created the image in the shroud around Jesus, potentially Jesus anyway. That's when Jesus came alive. I know. But what I'm saying is that most people that are around even Ark of the Covenant, and they experience radiation-type disease or sickness.

Obviously, if you would have probably been around Jesus when he came back to life and this bright atomic-type light, which is likely what caused this image in the actual cloth, you know, I would assume probably there's a lot of radiation to be had there. And then if you think about all these soldiers over the past, you know, 15 to 20 years where, you know, you had literal doctors that were seeing these. soldiers that either had come in close contact with what they said was craft they didn't know exactly but some type of orbs in war zone type situations they got these radio radiological sicknesses or brain damage or whatever to where they were brain damage for a very long time and they were in war zones there's some type of connection i don't know exactly what it is but to radiation UFOs god there is definitely a connection there well in this story radiation means life to me

Well, it means energy is energy. And our bodies are all made of energy. You know, what we house inside of us is energy. We are a physical manifestation of that. And James, do you believe our soul is the energy that is in us? I mean, or do you believe it's something else? Yeah, it's definitely possible. That could be the energy.

I haven't really thought about it in that aspect. I do know that there is a soul within you that will leave your body when you die. they've even done studies on that you know about that like where they weighed the body all that good chas oh yeah yeah to where it was lighter yeah um but it would make sense that it would be the energy you know like as far as like almost like the static electricity at your body holds or whatever yeah because energy don't die yeah that would that would absolutely make sense because where else would that energy be coming from you know well i mean that's that's what most people believe, you know, that's why they say, you know, everything in this world revolves

around energy and most of what our reality is is unseen versus seen. And most of everything we can't see is energy or waveforms or magnetic type of or like electromagnetic pulse. I don't know. That was definitely because he, it was, you know, God is Jesus. Jesus is God. Three and one, the Trinity. But like so just the aspect of the spirit, re-entering the body. I believe that's what produced the power, the burst of energy, the light. And something I don't think I've mentioned yet, it kind of makes sense, too, you know, how you were talking about how it might have, like, dyed his hair or bleached his hair almost, right? It said that when Moses went up to the mountain to be with God and he would come down, like, you know,

he would have his meetings with God up in Mount Sinai, so that whenever he would come down, his hair was starting to bleach, was starting to go like pure white. And again, that could go right back to just light in general. Like God in his form is just light. Yeah. And by the way, so what James is talking about, if you look at the shroud of turin, there is a negative image, which is what most people see in the shroud of turrent. And then when you put it into a positive image, the negative image shows what would be a white.

Yeah, yeah, it's dark, but it's white actually. So if you actually take it to what it would actually look like in real life, it would be white hair. And it's very dark in the negative, but it's very light in the positive. And I guess it specifically mentions that in the Bible. And so there's just so many connections to the Stroud of Turin that I believe is real. No one has been able to disprove it. They've done everything they possibly can to disprove this. They've tried to carbonate it, which then it seems like they used pieces of the cloth that were repaired.

and you've got to ask yourself, if we still have organizations today that is doing everything they can to hide the history of our civilization and who we are and where we came from, and you don't think that happened then? I mean, there's still so much. You know, technically, the shrouded Turin is kind of housed in the Catholic Church, as far as their archives. And if we know anything, we know that the archives of the Pope, right, the, the, the Vatican and how much stuff that they have that no one has ever seen.

Oh, that's a whole conspiracy theory on its own. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we don't know what's in the Vatican. We don't know what they actually house and hold. But this was, I think, one of the things that someone tried to keep quiet for a very long time. And, you know, if this is as real as it seems, like if you had to prosecute something in the court of law and you had the shroud return with all the evidence against

that you would prosecute it as. real. You know, I think a jury would say that it was real versus not. But yet, it's not on mainstream media because they don't want you to hear that for whatever reason because their agenda is of the world and not of God. And we need to erase history. Yeah, we do. They're always going to erase history. James, do you have a closing message for people out there, you know, people that are struggling like us, people that, you know, don't necessarily know what to believe or they're just kind of on this same journey that we are. What do you suggest for them?

Definitely dive into the Bible. Definitely. Don't listen to what anybody else says about it. Don't listen to all the false preachers on TV. Smiling Joel is what I call him. You know, Joel. I call him smiling Joel because that's about all he's good for is smiling. But yeah, don't don't judge Jesus by what you see other people do.

You need to go hear it straight from the man himself. That's the best thing you can do to see what he's all about. Because I guarantee if you see what he's all about, you'll find that, wow, my values actually align with this guy's values really well. Now, I think that's the most important thing that people need to do is just go see for themselves. The Bible tells us that God is sovereign. He's the creator of everything. He's the ruler of all things. He is holy and just.

And because he is holy and just, he must judge sin. But here's the good news is that in his mercy, God has chosen a people for himself. The problem is that we're all born with a sinful nature. So we're separated from God. And because of that, we can't come to him on our own. So no one is righteous. No one, not, I'm not, no one's not. our sin deserves judgment and we can't fix that ourselves but god and his love sent his son jesus to die in our place

jesus lived a perfect life and he died on the cross for punishment for our sins and three days later he rose from the dead and that shroud is probably proof of that offering forgiveness and eternal life to those who trust him god doesn't save us because we've done anything there is no good in us it's because of his grace and his love, that he gives anyone the opportunity to come be with him forever. So if you hear God calling you today, I urge you to respond, repent and trust Jesus. It is the only way to be saved. If you believe in him and confess, he is Lord with your mouth, you will be saved and you will have eternal life with God.

That is in scripture. And if you go read it, you'll see for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Well, James, thank you so much for coming on. That was amazing. Yeah, and listen, I want everybody's opinion. Make sure you send us a message on X or Facebook or your Instagram or send us a message on an investigator with podcast at Protonmel.com.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Shroud of Turin. Do you believe it? What do you think about Jesus? What do you think about what James said tonight? What about what I said? Well, any of us said. I mean, I'm just saying, like, as far as James, he's very... I think it's miraculous.

Yeah. They come talk to us on Telegram. Yeah, and we're on Telegram. So if you guys have any question, James on Telegram. He's always on Telegram over there. Actually, I saw an interesting conversation you had today. James on Delegram. James always gets in those conversation every once in a while because it seems like there's always people that obviously want to challenge stuff.

And unfortunately for you, James is probably going to get worse after tonight. So which is fine. I think people do need to challenge it. And just because of what we say doesn't mean that you should listen. No, you have to go research for yourself. And that's what I did today. Yeah. And I truly believe this could be authentic.

Yeah, I do as well. There's nothing wrong with questioning anything, but it becomes a problem whenever you're questioning and then you don't first accept the answer that you're given or even whenever you are given an answer, decide to delve even deeper, right? Like there comes a point in time when it becomes ignorance on yourself. Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with questioning. I mean, sure, you can question anything.

And God wants you to question things because he wants to tell you anything you want to know. Yeah. Well, I'm just going to be honest. I didn't even want to go into this. Like, I didn't want to, like, research this. But I knew we were doing it tonight, so I knew I had to. But after researching, there's no doubt in my mind. I think this is 100% authentic.

Yeah. Well, and hopefully, like I said, at the very least, hopefully this episode sparks a little bit of something inside of people to go in research. It's not necessarily about what we're going to tell you what we believe in, what James believes in, whatever. I just wanted to spark something to you because I think in whole, there's probably going to be people out there that reach out to us that offer insight that we don't know. And there's so many of you that do on a regular basis. They say, hey, you had a question about this. Here is what I think the answer is this. And we're very grateful to have an audience like you guys out there for sure.

Again, we'll definitely have you back on. We're going to be doing a lot more episodes over next year or two on this as our journey unfolds. But thank you so much, James. Perfect. Thank you for having me. Have great night, guys. Hey, you too. All right, guys, that was James.

And this is for the good Joy Spring feature in Will Harrison. Until next time, guys, we love you. Peace out. Peace out, guys.