Investigate Earth Conspiracy Podcast - True Crime: A Mother’s Promise | The Mark Hays Story and the Questions That Remain

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

In tonight’s true crime episode, we are honored to welcome Pauline Hays, the mother of Mark Hays, whose tragic murder in Arkansas became the foundation for the book A Mother’s Promise: The Mark Hays Story, co-written with Sheri. This conversation goes beyond headlines and case summaries, focusing on a mother’s journey through grief, faith, and her determination to keep her son’s memory alive while continuing to search for answers. We discuss why the book was written, what Pauline hopes readers and listeners will take from it, and the lingering questions that still surround Mark’s case. From personal reflections to concerns about inconsistencies and possible corruption, this true crime discussion takes a deeper look at the story behind the story and the promise that continues to drive a mother forward.Want a signed copy of the book? Fill out this formBuy 'A Mother Promise: The Mark Hays Story"

And the storm is moving in. The sky goes dark and you feel the wind. Which way just holds you down. Hello and welcome to Investigator of Podcast. I'm your host, Chad, alongside my beautiful wife, Sherry. On tonight's episode, it's a very special one for us. We are honored to be joined by Pauline Hayes, the mother of Marquoise, whose tragic murder in Arkansas became the foundation for the book,

A Mother's Promise, The Mark Hayes story, co-written by Pauline and Sherry. This is more than a true crime story. It's a mother's journey through loss, faith, and an unending search for answers. Tonight, we will talk about why this book is written, what Pauline hopes people take away from it, and the unanswered questions that still surround Mark's case. We will also touch on the concerns, alleged corruption, and deeper issues that led them to believe there was more of the story than the official narrative and why they felt it was so important to bring these details to light.

Guys, welcome to the show. It is February the 9th, 2026. The name of the song is Home by Northside. And I'm pretty excited for this episode. We have obviously had Pauline on the show a couple of times. This was a two or three years ago when our podcast covered the Marquay's murder. Obviously, Sherry and Pauline just wrapped up the writing of their book that is now available on Amazon. If you guys have not read it, you must read this book.

It is an amazing read. I witnessed for six or seven, eight months. Sherry and Pauline going through every single detail of everything that happened to Pauline. her family Mark during this time. And it's devastating. It is something that most families can't imagine ever going through. Obviously, the past few days, we've also covered the Nancy Guthrie case where she has been missing for one week now.

And as up today, there was a second deadline for ransom in the Nancy Guthrie case that was to expire at 5 p.m. As of right now, I do not have any details on that. We will continue to cover that case as well. But I hope that Pauline can kind of shed a little. little light on maybe what the Guthrie's also might be going through right now because when Pauline was going through the same type of situation, her son was missing for almost 67 days where she didn't know whether he was dead or alive. And unfortunately, the news came that he was dead

and was murdered. And so Sherry and us, we have grown very close to the Hayes family throughout this entire process. Obviously, we were not there for the entirety of it. This started back in 2016, but we at least did whatever we possibly could to help in any way we possibly could with the investigation or just anybody's coming forward and giving any information they possibly could. I know that there were nights that I was actually up until 10 or 11 or 12 o'clock at night talking to certain people. And I'm talking about people that were kind of off the wall a little bit mentally.

But I was doing that just to try to get any information whatsoever. And I know that that's just a little thing that I did, but I can't even imagine what Pauline and her family has went through because, guys, if you are a listener of conspiracy theories, we talk a lot about that. We've done it for seven or eight years, you know, anything from aliens to government corruption and overreach. This one is going to be a good episode for you because not only is it about the murder of her son, it is also about the corruption that led up to the murder of her son. that followed the murder of her son. Unfortunately, for the Hayes family, the murder is not where the just terror stopped, I guess I can say. You know, it's hard enough to find out that your son was murdered, and it's even harder

to be targeted potentially by people that were involved. And then also to turn around and feel like that the justice system is not working for you. and in particular certain aspects of law enforcement or the justice system in whole. And I know that we've talked so many times on the show. We've had podcast about sheriffs in our county that was corrupt, that got arrested. And we had, you know, campaigned for a sheriff that was running against the now sitting sheriff in our county. And so we've kind of been a part of this whole realm for quite some time.

We know about the corruption. We know that, you know, corruption is not just in Washington, D.C. see, you know, it's in these small towns like Malvern, Arkansas. And oftentimes, that's where this corruption goes unnoticed for years and years and years until something like this happens. But even still, you know, has anything been done about the corruption that was happening in Malvern, Arkansas? So we're going to talk about all of that on the show.

I want to start out by welcoming Pauline Hayes back to investigator with Pauline. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Not a problem. Pauline, first of all, congratulations to you. Sherry for releasing the book. Let's start with some good news first. You just had a book signing just, what, Saturday, and you almost sold out all your books

for a book signing. I mean, you're not a New York Times bestselling author, but like the turnout was amazing. And I think the community really rallied around you. Yes, they did. So who were some of the people that showed up? I mean, was law enforcement and just people that had been a part of this story or following in this story for quite some time or how did it go Saturday?

It went really well. We had ex-officers that had been on the case before. They showed up and got books. We had a judge who was a prosecutor at the time of Mark's murder. He showed up and got a book. We had another family who still has a missing family member. It's been missing since 2017. They showed up and got a book.

book. I had some people that I didn't know. Yeah. That's cool. That's really cool. I mean, you know, and I guess as some sunlight, you know, to just everything that you've been through over the past years, can you tell me just, I mean, I'm going to start with a hard question.

Can you tell me how hard it's been for you and your family since the murder of your son? It's really hard to put into words. That's one reason I wrote the books because I've kept most of my emotions hid because I felt like I had to to get answers. It's been a whirlwind. It's we cry, we laugh, we sit in fear. It's been a roller coaster. Yeah.

Who was Mark? Tell the audience a little about your son, who Mark was, what you remembered about him. Like if there's one thought that comes to your mind about your son, what is it? his laughter. He made everybody laugh. He would walk in a room, and before he walked out, everybody in the room was laughing. He was kind, caring. He wanted to make sure everybody was taking care of.

He gave a homeless man the shoes off his feet one day. Oh, wow. That's just the type of person he was. Yeah. So let's just start here. And Sherry, I'm going to get to you, I promise. So guys out there, I'm trying to kind of interview both of them because sometimes it's hard for two people to interview one person. It is.

And especially when I'm the co-host of this podcast and you're interviewing me. So I will listen and I'll answer when I, when I am called on. Yeah. Good job, Sherry. I'm just kidding. All right. So let's start here. When did Mark Hayes go missing?

Like what was the first instance that you realized something wasn't ranked? I know he left my house on August the 29th of 2016, and he was seen again on August the 31st of 2016, but after that date, nobody had seen him. And I run into some people that he knew on September the 20th, and they told me that nobody's heard from him or seen him and that I needed to file a missing person's report. And that's what I did. Okay, so the last time anyone saw him was August the 31st. But what happened, like, when was the last time you saw him? August the 29th. He was at my house.

He had spent the night there, him and a friend, and he was taking the friend home and told me that he would be back. And, of course, I joked with him and told him, you know, he was lying to me, don't lie to me, tell me the truth. And he laughed, and he said that he wasn't, you know, lying to me. He told me I was killing him. but he said it, he said, you're killing me smalls. Oh, yeah. And just more, you know, and he promised that he would be back and I never saw him again. Yeah, and the kind of a relationship that Pauline and Mark had was a humorous relationship,

but it was like best friends relationship. Yeah. And literally the last time that Pauline ever saw him, I just want to tell you a little story that I know, a backstory. The last time that Pauline ever saw him, her health is not ever really been. that great. So anyway, she was having to do these B12 shots to keep her health up and she would have to inject herself. So she got the medicine ready. And she wanted, you know, Mark to give her the shot. And he always is a jokester. He's always pulling pranks. He's always doing something crazy,

trying to make them laugh. And the most serious situations, they will just laugh. And that's what I found out through writing this book is that he turned anything into a joke or laugh. And laughter or humor, even in the worst times of their lives. Yeah. So anyways, Mark, Pauline, she was going to play a trick on Mark the last day of his life that she didn't know at the time. But she said, you know, I was getting the shot. I got the shot ready.

I asked him to give it to me and I sat down for him to do it to him to give me the shot. And then I like screamed and yelled. And he just started breaking out in last. after because he knew that she was tricking him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he sounds like, you know, everything I've heard from you, Pauline, he sounds like a guy that you want to be around, right? I mean, someone that kind of lightened your day.

Let me ask you, when you were, were you joking with him when you said, you know, you better make sure you do come home or whatever you just said. Like, or did you have a bad feeling or if you did, why? I don't know. Part of me was joking and part of me just thought he wasn't coming back. there was just that gut feeling that I guess a mama has and I had it. Now, was there anything leading up to that day that you felt that way for or no? No, not really.

Things had been normal as normal as, you know, they could be. He had been on drugs. He got clean. He'd moved back to the house. He was doing good. Yeah. And you just felt like that night, for some reason, something maybe wasn't right deep down, you know, or something, you know, you didn't,

you couldn't quite put your finger on it. And so someone saw him on August 31st. You said, now, who was it to saw him? And how did you hear that? Well, I didn't know that until after he had went missing. People started talking. And it was a friend of his. And he had came up to her in Walmart and told her that he needed a ride.

and she had a newborn baby. And she told him, I've got the baby and I'm going in the other direction. And he said, okay, it's no big deal. She didn't realize that that was probably the night he was killed. Oh, wow. Yeah, and could you imagine how that girl feels now after the fact, if she would have just given him a ride home, he might still be alive today. Yeah.

You know, I'm sure that there's a lot of people that, like, think back to, if I would have done this different or if I would have done that different, things would be different. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I get that. But, you know, it's who knows. Who knows the, I mean, everything either happens for a reason or a don't. You never know how things play out.

But so after the 31st, when, like you said, did you realize something was wrong? Was it the 31st when he had not returned home? I started trying to contact him because my mother had passed away eight months prior. And her birthday was September the 9th. And I was trying to contact him because we were all getting together to go to the cemetery. And I wanted to make sure that he knew and he could be there. And I couldn't find him anywhere. I knew almost immediately that something was wrong.

Yeah. Now, you had mentioned that he had been on drugs before. And then you said he was doing good and you thought he was clean and all that. Was that a fear in your mind during this time that you had not heard from him that maybe he had got back on drugs? Is that why maybe in your mind you were like, maybe that's why I'm not hearing from? Like, did he ever go missing or disappear when he was on drugs before all this happened? He would never go more than a week without contacting me. It might be somebody else's phone.

And that's when he was in his heaviest addiction. It might be somebody else's phone and I might receive a text. Mom, I'm okay. He never more than a week without contacting me. If I ever went and knocked on a door, he would call me a message. immediately and I knocked on doors for weeks and never heard nothing. So I knew then that something was really bad wrong. Okay.

So tell me when they found Markey's body. What date was that? It was November 4th of 2016. November 4th, 2016. Okay. So from August the 31st to November 4th, 2016, what were you doing during that time? which is obviously not very long, but what were you doing during this time? It felt like an eternity during that time.

I was knocking on doors. I was making phone calls. I was contacting anybody and everybody that might know him to see if anybody knew where he was. Okay. And then how did you find out that they found his body? I was actually headed to town and the detective called me. and told me over the phone that they found his body. And where did they find it at?

They found it in a local dumping site where people just dumped their garbage. He was thrown out like trash. Oh, wow. But before all this, Pauline and her husband, Mark, they actually set up legitimate search parties for her son, like big parties. Tell about some of the search parties that went on and how many people showed up and what was happening during some of these search parties? We had hundreds of people show up to the search parties.

The first one was right after I made the missing persons report. It was the following weekend. I believe it was September the 24th. We posted it on Facebook and everybody shared it. And when we got there, there was around 200 people there. What happened during this search? It was a place everybody here calls the mines. It's over a thousand acres, and people brought four-wheelers, ATVs, people was walking.

We did, you know, we spread out in groups. Mark, of course, was down with the hurt back at the time, so he couldn't do much walking or anything. So he sat at what we made a base camp at the foot of the mountain, and we went up the mountain looking for it. looking for any signs of anything, which we did find stuff that day and wound up having the police come out. What did you find? Because, I mean, I obviously know what you found, but what did you find on that day? We found a white tank top, which they call a wife-beater, a white tennie shoe.

Both of them had blood on them. And then we found a blanket that was soaked in blood. it had blowflies on it. Wow. And do you think that was, you know, in relation to your son's murder? I don't know because that evidence got lost. Oh, nice. I'm coincidental, I guess.

And the reason why, by the way, for the audience, says, listen, why I asked if it was your son's murder because there were other murders that had been happening around this area at the time too, right? Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about the other murders and all that, just kind of the other cases that kind of shrouded Mark Hayes' murder as well? The main one was Susan Cooper's murder. At the time, she was a missing person.

She was a missing person for two years. They finally found her body. She had been buried. And did Mark know Susan at all or no? Yes. Me and Susan was the same age, went to school together. her husband was friends with my husband and worked together. So, yeah, he knew her.

We all knew her. And what was the outcome of that case? Did they, like, why did she, why was she murdered? She was actually a drug informant and was murdered because of her and telling them people. Okay. All right. So, and then that leads me to, and I don't want to jump ahead too too much, but did people think that Mark was also an informant?

Yes, they did. And so why did people think that he was an informant? Because he got clean. Oh, I got you. That makes sense. And so is that like a common thing in the area? If they clean some of these people up, they'll try to get them to rat on their, you know, whoever they were buying from before?

Yes. Okay. We learned years later that it was actually, a police officer at the time had told some of them that Mark was an informant. That is the reason he was killed. And do you think Mark was an informant or was he not? No, he was not. I checked with several different agencies around the detective that I worked with really close

with. Don Moreland, he checked and no, he was not informant. When they asked him to be one, he put down some really ridiculous statements instead of names. Okay. I got you. Because obviously, you know, for people that know anything about the drug game, you know, you start snitching on people.

Yeah. You're going to be in big trouble. Yeah. And obviously, Mark, or Mark E. Did not want to be an informant and he was refusing to do that. Yeah. And I think that was one of the biggest claims at the end of this outcome that people still say, well, they thought he was a drug informant and that's why he was murdered.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and so obviously he got clean. But so walk me through now they find his body November the 4th, 2016. Yes. How long was it until there were any suspects from November 4th, 2016? There was suspects before his body was ever found. If the police took it seriously, I don't think they did.

I had suspects, which they had told me, you know, exactly. what they did, who they were and everything, which I always gave the police the same information I got. Yeah. And so. So there was perfect prior to him being found. But then, you know, until an arrest, when did an arrest actually happen in this case? An arrest happened.

I'm wanting to say it was November of 2023. So, yeah, it took a long time and they arrested Shelby Montgomery known as Little Shelby. Little Shelby. And then they also arrested someone else, right? There was more than one involved in this case. Yes, they didn't arrest him for another year. Okay. That was September of 2024.

All right. Now, let me ask you this. How do you think that from the time they found his body that they handled the investigation? Like, how do you think law enforcement handled the investigation overall? I don't think they handled it very well. There was some that was trying, but for the most part, they did not handle it very well. They would lose evidence. They wouldn't listen when I was told something, and I would tell them they would blow me off.

They did not want to listen to nothing. I was told in the beginning by the detective that Mike Cash brought in, which he was brought in in January of 2017. I was told by him that it wouldn't be solved for at least 10 years unless I solved it myself. Speaking of which, I do want to play a quick clip for the audience because can you set this clip up for us, Pauline? This is actually when you had called the Sheriff's Department correct and you wanted to speak to what Mike Cash, right, the Sheriff at the time? Yes. This was the first time he was reelected.

he had already been sheriff for two years and he won the re-election and I called to find out what was going on with the case. Okay. So here's the clip of Pauline calling to talk to at the time Sheriff Cash. Listen. Wow. So that was the sheriff at the time, right? Pauline Cash.

And he said, when we make an arrest, it'll be in a paper. And then he hung up on you. Yes. And so he hangs up on a mother of a murder. murder victim, which, you know, obviously at the time, they had not had a suspect. But that just blows my mind. Can you tell me like what your interactions were at the time with the Sheriff's Department, especially under Cash's leadership?

There was only one detective that actually would talk to me and treated me fairly and tried to me informed, and that was Don Morland. Anybody else in the office would not talk to me. and Don left in 2018, and I had no interactions with them. They wouldn't answer the phone. They wouldn't meet me if I went up there. They would not talk to me. Yeah, I want to get back to the Sheriff's Department in just a bit because there's a lot we need to talk about when it comes to just how they handled it and all of that.

But walk me through, obviously, I know the storyline pretty extensively, especially after listening to the book for six or seven, eight months. but walk me through some of the occasions during the time of the, you know, from the disappearance to when they found Mark's body to even after. Like, tell me some things that happen in you, like in your life that you guys maybe felt like, you know, people wanted you to shut up and to, you know, to quit research and to quit investigating. My daughter was shot at. Okay, let's stop there. Okay, hold on. Let's stop there. Okay.

Your daughter was shot at. Now, walk me through this story. Me and my daughter were at home. My husband and her boyfriend at the time were at work. Tyler was in school. Tyler's your son, right? Yes, Tyler's my son and Brianna's my daughter. A truck had stopped in front of our house.

We were sitting out in the yard. A truck had stopped taking pictures of us. I followed the truck. I got her in the car. We followed the truck so I could see who it was. It turns out it was a police officer. We didn't do anything else. We went home.

I contacted Don Morland. He said we would take care of it in the morning. He would meet me at the police department. We'd take care of it. I decided I was tired. I was going to go in. and lay down because I hadn't been sleeping. And I went into the house, and her and her boyfriend were living in a camper in our yard.

And about the time I got laid down, she went to screaming, and I took off running back there to her, and I got to her. She was running to me as I was running to her. And she had glass all in her hair. A window had been shot out behind her head, but it ricocheted and didn't hit her. Mm-hmm. And how long after you followed this truck, did this happen? Within an hour.

Okay. And how did you know that whoever was in the truck was a police officer? Because at that point, I was very familiar with all the Hot Springs County police officers. Okay. And so you followed them and you actually saw him. Like you pulled up next to him or how did you know that it was a police officer? About a mile from the end of. of our road. So it's about two miles from the house. There's four lanes. And I caught him on the four

lanes and I pulled up next to him and he looked at me. And he was actually in a county vehicle. It was one of their unmarked trucks. But yes, it was a police officer. He looked at me and I looked at him. He knew I knew who he was. So he was taking pictures outside of your house. Do you have any reason of why he may have been doing that? No. I met with him the next morning with Don Moreland. He took me into his office. Mike Cash was there.

Everybody was there. And he denied it. Oh, so he denied even being there. So obviously it was 100%. When you saw him in the office, when you went and met with everybody next day, you knew for sure it was him. Yes. Okay.

That's wild. And so then an hour later, the window gets shot out, you know, the whole thing happened. Now, is this after Mark's body is found or before? Yes, it was the, let's say, August of 2017. So, yes, his body had been found. Okay. So do you think they were aiming at Brianna or was it just they're shooting outside of your property?

Or what do you think happened? Yeah, and let me ask you a follow up. Yeah, let me ask you a follow-up question. is at the time was Brianna's room or where she was at? Was it facing the road? Like, so do you think the shots came from the road? No. Her window was facing the wooded area back behind our property.

Okay. And then what's behind the wooded area? I mean, is there a road back there that somebody can access? Okay. Yeah, there's a road and a cemetery back there. Okay. All right. So that happens.

And then what else happens? after that? The following year in August, I got shot at. Oh, wow. And this following year, you got shot at. Now, how did that happen? I was up late at night, scrolling through Facebook, answering messages, trying to get, you know, any information I could.

And I heard, like, a pop real close. And I had my phone on. that was the only light, and I shut it off, and the neighbors called me and told me that somebody was parked at the end of our road shooting at our house. Oh, my gosh. And was this at nighttime, you said? Yeah, it was about 12.30 at night. Okay.

So what happened after that? We called the law, and they came out about two hours later. They showed up. Two hours later? Two hours later? Yes. We found the shellcases in the road. We blocked the road so nobody could go through, which we live on a loop so they could go out the other direction.

We blocked the road and protected everything, waiting for, you know, the officers to get there. They got there. The neighbors was down there with us, you know, because they had a description of the truck and everything. They were unable to get the license plate, but they had the truck description. A single officer came out, and he picked up the shell. cases, after chasing them all the way across the road into the road ditch, with a rubber glove and sat there and rubbed them around in the rubber glove for like five minutes. My son-in-law, he was son-in-law at the time, he went up to the house to check on my daughter

and son. He came back down, or he called back down and said somebody was up at the house. Somebody just run through the woods. And we told the officer, sir because he was still there and he got in his car and left. He did not even bother to go to our house. Oh, my God. All right. So then this happens. And did you have any follow up of law enforcement after that about this particular

incident? Yes. I called to see if they were going to come out, you know, take pictures of the holes in the house and, you know, all of that. And I was told by Detective Glenn Pye to take the pictures myself and send them to him that nobody was coming out. And Cash was still in office at the time, the sheriff? Yes.

Okay. And then what else happened after that? Anything else? There was a lot. Our house was broken into. We constantly had people snooping around the house. We put dogs out to kind of deter people from coming around dogs that we knew would bite. And two out of the three dogs we put out,

was poisoned and the third one was missing oh wow okay and so obviously this starts to sound like in your head and during this entire fiasco like from the time mark's body was found after all these instances were happening like were you i mean obviously we had talked earlier in the beginning of this episode about you going out on all the groups and talking about mark and you know putting these missing flyers. But were you out there talking to people and just, you know, trying everything you possibly could to get to the bottom of this? Like, why do you think people started to target you? I kept getting told that I needed to drop it and let it go. And I told him, I can't. That's my son. I want answers. I was going to crack motels. I was going to crack

houses or what they call flop houses. I was going anywhere. Anybody told me anything. If they give me a lead, I would go and check it out because I knew the police department wouldn't. Okay. So you were really digging and even when people were telling you, you know, hey, you should probably just let us handle it. Like, let us do this. Did you, I guess what I'm, another question I'm asking is, did you feel pushback from the sheriff's department as far as like they wanted you to kind of stay out of it? No, I felt like they didn't, they just didn't believe anything I had to say. They weren't going to listen to anything I found or anything I had to say.

They wasn't really talking to me so they didn't give me any pushback. Yeah. Pauline, tell them a little bit about when Brianna was shot out and you were shot at what the police reports actually said. And was it even conclusive to what really happened? Yeah, with Brianna, it said window broke near daughter's head. With me, it was shots heard near home. And is that even close to what happened? No.

So actually, what happened was you guys were shot at? Yes. So did anybody try to find any projectiles in the home or any of that ever in any of the investigations? Well, with Breanna? Mark and my husband Mark. And her husband had the police officer that come out. They forced him to go look because you could see where it went. And he didn't try to get the bullet out of the wall at all.

With me being shot at, no, nobody ever came out to the house to even look. I took the pictures myself and sent them in. Yeah. So. Chad, do you think that's normal in a normal case? If anyone reported somebody being shot at, what would be the normal protocol in this? Well, I mean, you know, they treat shots fired, you know, even just the sound of shots fired extremely seriously because, you know, that is a potential, you know, just a shots fired case could turn into attempted murder. You know, so depending on, you know, if you can prove like who did it and trace the bullets back, you know, all that stuff.

finding projectiles all of that stuff is very important in a case especially when it comes to shots fired because you know that's a very very serious criminal offense and it sounds like they just kind of wanted to brush everything under the rug and just move on and um so when did you start did you hear any rumors during all of this right and the reason i'm asking this and you don't you can go into as little or as much details you want obviously no names have to be mentioned but what rumors did you start hearing throughout this process? And if you can, from the time to all of these things happened to you, whether it was your daughter or you or the house or whatever, tell me like kind of a timeline of rumors you heard versus the things that were happening to you. I started hearing rumors early on that a local judge had ordered it.

there was never any anything proven that he did actually order a hit on Markey. We never got any proof of anything, but the rumors were going wild with him being involved. Yeah. And were there rumors? Like, what were there? Okay, so let's go back for a second.

what were the rumors and the theories about exactly what happened to your son and how he was murdered I know that he was shot but in specific if you want to I mean that's up to you but like what do you think actually happened based on everything that you've learned so far can you walk us through the night of his murder or was it was it at nighttime I believe right yeah it was like early more than hours I believe yeah walk us through how you think that went down? What I was told was it was a party of about 30 people there and they took him into a bedroom and confronted him because they thought he was a snitch and they wound up shooting him

multiple times. Several people shot him. And you say several. And the reason I say that is because usually several means three or more or something. Do you think that everybody that's in jail right? Yeah. Do you think that everybody's in jail right now is the only people that participated? No, I do not.

Okay. So let's, I want to get back to the night of his murder, but let's go ahead and get to the people that are charged. Now, did you have any suspicion of these people that actually were convicted of his murder? Yes. And so one of them was Shelby and the other one's name was Dion, correct? Yeah, Anthony Dionne Williams. He went by Dionne.

So the U.S. Marshal's come and pick up Shelby, correct? Yes, yes. And they charge him with, is it just Marx murder they charge him with? Or does he have another murder on his record? At the time, it was just Marx, as they charged him with. It's what I was told. But if you looked at where he was being held, it showed that he was being charged for four different capital murders. And Chad, let me ask you for a minute.

Why would U.S. Marshals pick them up versus just like the county police department? Why would it be U.S. Marshals? Well, U.S. Marshals is, I mean, they're federal agents. Their main job is to their, well, like Sheriff's Departments, for example, in Spartanburg or Greenville County or most, there's a lot of counties. Not all counties have warrant squads, but there's a lot of bigger counties that will have warrants squads that pick up, you know, unresolved warrants. and most of those cases, they'll go after murder suspects and all that stuff as well.

But in high profile cases or cases that are capital murders, you know, federal drug trafficking, a lot of these, you know, high attention warrants, that's when U.S. marshals will get involved. Or the fact that it's not to say that the sheriff's department can't also go and arrest that person. It's just to say that sometimes, and especially in smaller towns, U.S. marshals are better equipped to do it. This is what they do all the time. this is their expertise and so they go after i guess you can call it the big fish the they go after to people that is high risk as far as high risk warrants as far as you know you don't you don't you don't want obviously um uh situations to where you have downed officers because of maybe the

situation maybe this person was involved in a in a big drug ring it was a lot bigger than you know maybe a sheriff's department really wanted to handle or the fact that maybe the u.s. or federal agents or agencies did not necessarily trust the local Sheriff's Department to do what they were supposed to do. So then that's when the federal agencies like the U.S. Marshals will come in and do the work because we also have to talk about for a second. We got to talk about the FBI kind of rated Malvern, Arkansas, during this time. And I do want to say, Pauline, when we did our podcast with you and then we did it with Woody and we had talked about this case, I think we had done three episodes. but it wasn't like crazy long after this. And this was also after I had talked with this gentleman that I say gentleman,

but this guy that was allegedly there, I believe, the night that Mark was murdered, that also may have driven around with Mark's body in the back of his car for at least three days. Yeah, three or so days. But I guess what I'm saying is the FBI raided Malvern, right? And this came not that long after our podcast episodes. And we had actually called and talked to FBI. We were calling and talking to whoever we possibly could because, number one, I'll explain in a minute.

I was on the phone with this guy that was supposedly there the night of Mark's murder that was allegedly driving around with Mark's body in the trunk. And I was this guy was a drug addict that was talking to. I was trying to pretend like I was a drug addict on the phone with him to get him to like trust me more, to get him to open up to me. right? And he didn't trust me at first. Pauline, wasn't it you that connected us with him, obviously? And then, you know, you, I don't even remember how we even came about. No, she just had to ask him, would you be willing to talk to my friends? You know, they do have a

podcast, but you can go off record and just tell them the story. Yeah. And that's when you started talking to him. And you talked to him like three or four days straight. Yeah. And like the first day or two, he wouldn't really say a lot. Right. And then it was, I, at that point, I was. just trying to catch him when he was honestly like the most high because even though he was a little paranoid he would also slip up and mess up and just start talking he would start saying things and obviously with people that are high especially on what he was high on likely meth uh you know yes you do have that aspect of people that are on meth that think things that don't happen or think things that are that are not in reality right right so you have to like you have to gauge when

you're talking to people like that, what is reality and what is not? And oftentimes those people will mix both of the two, right? Yeah, but he told his story the same time every time. And that's exactly what I did over like three or four days. I kept asking the same things. Because whether he was a little bit high, a lot high or not high, you know, I tried to see the consistency in the story. But he was just fearful because he didn't want to go to jail. Yeah. Now, there were certain things that he would kind of come back on and say, you know, like the third day I would talk to him. He'd be like, well, no, I didn't say that. And every time he would try to come back on some or pull back on some of the things he told

me the day before, it was when he was less high. And so it was when he was like, oh, shit, did I really tell him that? And so, like, I have to pull back on this, right? So the amount of information we kind of gained from talking to him over three or four days and then calling the FBI and talking to them and just kind of going through all of that. It wasn't that long after the FBI kind of, I guess, rated Malvern, however that happened and went about whatever. But tell me why the FBI actually came in.

Was it about the Sheriff's Department or what was the deal there, Pauline? What I gathered was they raided a trucking company. They raided the local judge that was rumored to be involved and our mayor's office. Okay. And then we heard no more. We didn't hear anything else about it. Okay. And that was before any suspect.

and your son's murder was arrested, correct? Correct. Okay. Now, that judge that was rumored to potentially have some dirtiness on him, he has since stepped down. He has resigned, correct? He was forced to be resigned. He was forced to step down.

Is that right, Pauline? Yes, that's correct. For unethical behavior. Now, do we know what the unethical behavior was? No. So no idea. There's never been anything official put out about why. Okay.

So this judge, as you say, that you had heard the rumor, maybe this guy put a hit out or whatever. Do you think that there was, that he was involved in anything? Well, here, before we even start there, how big is the drug scene in Malvern? Like, because, you know, the reason I'm asking, I already kind of know the answer to this. But I want you to kind of explain, like, how big this drug scene is in your little small town of Malvern, Arkansas? It's very large. We are by a major interstate and it runs right through Malvern. And it is a very large population that's using drugs here.

Yeah. Now, does it go like cross country to cartels or like how far does it go? Well, I've looked this up because I think that interstate goes from Mexico. Essentially, you can get from Mexico to, you know, New York, really. Yes. Through that thoroughfare. And Arkansas obviously is basically a midway point from New York, the Northeast, and from Mexico. So, you know, if you have people that are in a small town, well, what do you do is the cartel?

You try to go to these small towns. You find these either small town judges, sheriffs, law enforcement. I'm not saying this happened in your town. I'm just saying this is typically what cartels will do. they will find these small towns they will infiltrate the small town judges they will infiltrate the small town law enforcement the process you name it they'll do this because you know cartels when they're moving multi millions of dollars worth of drugs through the heart of the country which is Arkansas you need some help some places and oftentimes you find that

in these small towns that can easily be corrupted and paid off and you know pauline i'll be honest like since from everything that I have heard about the story in this small town, especially the way, in my opinion, the way the Sheriff's Department handled it, I was like, there's got to be something else. When did you start thinking like this may be a much bigger thing than just, you know, they thought that Mark was an informant and they killed him for that reason? Well, my husband had the first. detective that was on the case told him that it was a lot bigger than anybody knew that it went all the way to the state Senate.

Wow. Now, why why do you think that? Like, what is, what is that about? He never went into detail about it. He just said, you know, my husband said he thought it was bigger than what everybody was saying. And this was at Mark's funeral. And the detective told him that he knew it was that it went all the way to the state Senate. He never, a library. on what that meant or, you know, why he said that, he just left it at that. Yeah. Okay. So, so Shelby gets arrested. Now, yes. How old is Shelby, which was the prime suspect, correct? Yes.

He was in his 20s, like 25 when he was arrested. 25 when he's arrested. And then you said, what, a couple of months later, Dion got arrested? A year later. Year later. Okay. Almost a year, not quite a year. And so who did they determine throughout trial that was the Trigger Man?

And was this a plea deal? Obviously it wasn't. They went to trial, pleaded not guilty? Shelby went to trial, pled not guilty, had a trial, was found guilty, not of capital murder, but of murder one. Okay. And can you explain what a difference is in capital and murder one for the audience? There's several different things.

stages and the time that they serve is different and the reasons for the murder are different. Like capital murder was premeditated. Murder one was, I'm not exactly sure on it. But then you've got murder two and then you've got manslaughter. Yeah. And I'm just reading, I just wanted to make sure the severe, basically the difference in first degree and capital is the severity of circumstances and the possible punishment. So first degree murder generally means a willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing.

That's first degree murder. Key elements include intent to kill, planning, or premeditation, and sometimes includes felony murder, meaning a death happened during another serious crime like robbery or kidnapping. And then capital murder is essentially first degree murder plus specific aggravating factors that make it the most serious level of homicide under state law. And so these aggravating factors by the state often include killing a police officer, judge or child, murder during certain felonies like rape, kidnapping, or terrorism, multiple victims, murder for hire, or especially cruel or torture-related circumstances.

And he was first arrested for capital murder. Yeah. The worst defense. Yeah. Yeah, that, I mean, and that makes sense. So was there any other rumors around the night? I want to go back for a second, the night of his murder. So you say Shelby was one, according to, you know,

what happened in court. Dion was another, according to what happened in court. What were other rumors? I mean, you don't get to say names or any of that stuff. But who potentially was two other people? You say there was possibly four. Who was potentially the two other people that were involved in this murder? I was told that Shelby's girlfriend at the time also pulled the trigger and that his dad had pulled the trigger.

And now where is Shelby's dad now? He got murdered. Oh, that's interesting. Can you tell us a little backstory about how he got murdered? Well, I don't know all the details. I do know that he was in his home, that somebody came to his home, and he was killed execution style, and there was a girl at his home, and she was shot and killed in the bathroom. And how long, like, okay, what's the timeline of when Shelby, which was, which is, which

is the one that was found guilty for your son's murder, one of them. Little Shelby. What's the timeline of when his dad was murdered? His dad was just murdered like two years ago. He was in jail at the time for Mark's murder when his dad was killed. Okay, so Shelby was in jail for Mark's murder. Okay. Yeah.

And so was he, but okay, you say he was in jail, but he, his trial had not come through yet, right? No, no, it had not. Now, was there any speculation or rumors that potentially Shelby's dad would have been involved in that case? Yes. It was told that his dad was going to testify against him in Mark's case. Oh, wow.

So that may mean, I mean, that would be pretty wild, though, Pauline, like if the son or someone involved in the son, you know, ordered the murder of the dad. Yeah, and why was Shelby? in a rumor. But why was Shelby Sr. going to testify against Shelby Jr.? What evidence did he have that he was going to testify about? I know he's the one that turned in the receiver that Shelby put into his well on his property, and he turned the receiver over to the police department in 2016, 2017. And what is a receiver? It's part of the gun. The part that actually fires.

Yeah, so like the firing pin essentially, that section, not the firing pin, but the section of the weapon, yeah. And so you're talking about, so they hid the weapon. Tell us a little bit about that whole thing, because I remember you talking about it, but tell us where you guys thought the murder weapon was. The guy that you had talked to had told us that the weapon was hit in a air duct in a trailer on his property. And so we had went there looking for it, but it turned out that there was nothing there.

Okay. So he had said, and I actually remember this because this was about the time, I think, when he told you that, that I was talking to him, correct? I mean, I think that was like right around that time. Yes. And you met with him, right? I mean, so you had met with this guy that I talked to, I think after I had talked to him, right? Before and after.

Because when I was on conversation with him, I kept trying to tell him, are you willing to go to the police or go to the FBI? That's what I kept saying. I said, I want you to go to the FBI. I want you to tell them because I was trying to explain to him. I said, if you were a part of this, you know, you got to remember, dude, like you're an accessory. And the best thing that can happen to you is go forward before your name comes up in this. And, you know, the likelihood of you getting out of this is good, even though it sounds like he's out of it anyway, which is crazy to me, considering the fact that he's literally admitted that to me that he was involved at the very least,

you know, potentially carting this body, your son's body around. So, but what I'm saying is that you had met with him a few days after I talked to him, correct? Because I think that we were trying to, I think you were trying to coordinate the murder weapon. And I was trying to coordinate, I guess, him going to the FBI, which he never did, by the way, I don't think. Or either way, but didn't he tell you that he went and talked to them, but we don't think he ever actually did. No, he said that police department. Yeah, the police. Yeah.

Explain that. He talked to somebody that was FBI, but I don't believe the guy was FBI. Yeah. I think it was just somebody from the police department. Okay. But yeah, I spoke with him prior. He came to my house for the first time because I didn't trust meeting him anywhere. And so he come to my house and my husband and son law sat outside with loaded weapons watching to make sure that I was safe. Yeah. And then I met with him. I wouldn't go meet him by myself. I would always take somebody with me.

And we all went to his house and done the search for the gun. And we wound up cutting the air duct out from underneath the trailer house, which the trailer house was pretty much destroyed. They were ripping it apart. And there was no. in there except for the ducting tape. Yeah. And did you, was there any other rumors about law enforcement around there that you had heard?

I mean, and you don't necessarily have to go into crazy detail. But what were things that you were hearing? Because I'll be honest, Pauline, I think I said this on the beginning of this show. When Sherry first started talking to you and then I started talking to you a little bit and leading up to the podcast and all the things you were saying, I was like, this sounds crazy like there's no way yeah this sounds like a freaking movie yeah there's no way all this is happening and then come to find out like everything that you were saying was true and um and it seems like you've been pretty on actually like i'm like listening remembering back years two or three years everything that you've said has come true was true right and so and so and so i

actually have no reason to not believe the other rumors that have been out there as well but um the question I have is do you think that there was allegedly a corrupt circle of either law enforcement? And I'm not saying all, obviously, because we had talked with some law enforcement that was, you know, there at the time. And I think there were good people. But what I'm saying is, do you think that there was a deeper, darker, more sinister clandestine, I guess, party behind things? things that were running Malvern, Arkansas, and especially the drug game, and especially the people like Shelby and his dad and all of that. Like, do you think that they had handlers that were maybe in the justice system?

Yes. One of the rumors I was told was that this local judge was Big Shelby was his right-hand man, and that little Shelby was his closer, which meant he handled any business that needed handled. So you think Shelby's dad probably knew a lot more about the inner workings of what was going on than probably Little Shelby, which was the one that was convicted of your son's murder. Yes. And I want to ask you real quick, had Big Shelby or Little Shelby been involved in crime before this point? Yes, but convicted.

I don't think convicted of anything except for drugs. Yeah. And so Big Shelby may have been like one of the ringleaders potentially. We don't know, but, you know, maybe. And, you know, maybe he knew the inner workings more than anybody, especially if the rumor is true that maybe he was connected to a judge in the town or whatever, it would make more sense that that might be why he was murdered. Because, you know, you don't want someone like that in a murder case that may have

had something to do with this corrupt system to go and testify in court. for any reason. Yes, and I find it kind of suspicious that little Shelby was found with a illegal cell phone in jail around the time that his dad was killed. Hmm. And didn't he get charged? And not only that, he also got charged with witness tampering. And.

Yeah, what was the deal with that, Pauline, the witness tampering? That was during the time he was in jail, during or leading up to his trial. trial. What was the witness tampering charge about? He was charged in another, it was a murder, but they stated that it was an accidental shooting. He destroyed the gun. He actually pulled the trigger, admitted that he pulled the trigger, but they say it was an accident. And then he beat the guy's girlfriend real bad to. keep her from telling the police the truth. Yeah.

And he is taking a plea deal on that one, is what I'm told. Now, I want to talk about this, too, which I don't know if you want to talk about this, but we're going to because I've got to ask the question. So Cash gets out, right? He was the sheriff at the time. You have a new sheriff come in, which I think we had talked to that sheriff. And then he gets charged by the FBI, right? Yes.

I mean, the FBI arrested him. So this is the new sheriff. everybody voted for, and then the FBI comes back in and arrest the new sheriff, even though Cash never got arrested for anything, but this new sheriff did. What is the, can you tell us, I think he was arrested on what, was it drug charges? Is that correct? Yes. There was a whole bunch of different charges, but I believe drugs is the one that they made

a deal with him. If he would plead guilty to one, then he could get off from all the others. and I believe he pled guilty to the drugs. Do you think he was guilty of those charges? Personally, no, I don't think he was. And why? Because I knew him personally. He would talk to me daily and I just didn't feel like knowing the drug world,

I did not feel like he was a person on drugs. But you could be wrong, right? But you didn't feel like that. Right. Like I said, I didn't feel like he was, but I couldn't be wrong. Now, is he still in jail or what's the deal with that? I don't know.

I have not heard anything in months. I'm wanting to say he got several months that he had to be locked up. So he should still be locked up. Now, do you think that like the, I guess the situation of law enforcement now, what happened after the sheriff, they got arrested? What happened after that? Did they put some interim sheriff in at the time and how do you feel about the Sheriff's Department right now? They put somebody in that worked for Mike Cash as Sheriff now.

I honestly worried about him, but I think he's doing a decent job. Do I trust the police department? No, I do not. Yeah. And when is the next Sheriff race? The election will actually be, I believe, March the third is the primary. March 3rd. And do you have anybody right now that you would put your support behind, especially after all the hell you've been through with the sheriff's former there?

Well, you know, I was really torn and I was leaning towards one person until they started treating me the same way Mike Cash treated me. and then I turned and had a conversation with the other candidate, which is Kevin Cooper, and I'm going to support him. Okay, Kevin Cooper. We might have to bring him on and see. We'll just have to give him a lie detector test and see. We'll have to set that up. We'll have to bring someone that knows lie detecting over there. Pauline, I mean, the crazy thing is that, you know, and by the way, guys, I want to go ahead and tell you, this is not.

all the story at all. No, this is just like partial tellings. Yeah. Like Chad said in the beginning of the podcast, he listened to Pauline and I write the book. And we went through so many emotions. We went through crying constantly to laughing at some of the stories. Like some of the stories, like, and it was so funny because when I was rereading the stories, I'd be rereading them and I would just start laughing out loud.

And Chad's like, why are you laughing at a true crime book? But seriously, some of the stuff that Polly went through is just comical. Yeah. And there's no way we can cover that on this podcast. I mean, there's a lot of stuff we can't cover about, you know, what happened during the time. Like even a lot of the stories around the things that were happening to them because it wasn't just those stories we talked about tonight. There was a lot more things that were going on, the inner workings, the conversations, the, the, conversations, the threats, the violence, the late nights, the everything that Pauline went through and her family

went through during this time, all of that is covered in a book. So don't think because you listen to this podcast that you know the whole story. You don't. There's a lot more to it. There's a lot more involved in it. And so that's why I encourage you guys definitely to go and read the book. It supports Pauline and everything she's been through with all of this. but Pauline, I also want to talk before we go because I think this is important.

You know, I can't tell you how many people that have reached out to us on this podcast about losing loved ones or, or, I mean, how I remember during the COVID thing, right? And I can't even explain how many people reached out to us about their daughters or son or whoever. They got a vaccine. I mean, it sounds conspiratorial, but their daughters or sons. They got the vaccine that ended up dead a week later or whatever. and they were reaching out to us to fight for their loved ones or, you know, just to try to get

their story out. But in specific, with this Nancy Guthrie thing, because it's a huge case right now, it's a huge talking point. You know, one of the things I was saying is, like, this has been one week. This is a national news story right now. Like, you can't turn it on any station without hearing something about Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie, only because she's so big, right? I mean, wouldn't you have loved, wouldn't you have loved if national media and the FBI and the White House and everybody would have got behind your son's murder or disappearance like they have Nancy Guthrie because Savannah Guthrie is her daughter, right?

But that's not necessarily how it happens. But can you just explain to me or explain to the audience like what you felt when you didn't know where your son was very similarly, I guess, to where someone like. the Guthrie family is also experiencing right now, that feeling of like not knowing what, you know, what not knowing is probably one of the hardest things. There was confusion. There was theories.

There was every scenario runs through your head. The biggest thing I can say is they're probably feeling a law. Just because they just don't have, you know, I mean, it's just something, it's almost like not reality. Yes.

And then once you found out about Mark, you know, and then, you know, even the years after, like, how has your life changed from before Mark's murder to now? Before Mark's murder, I trusted people. I, you know, stayed to myself. I didn't hardly talk to people. Now I don't trust people at all. I'm blunt with them. I've had to learn to hide my emotions because I felt like I had to in order to do the things that I did. And so now I'm having to learn to show emotion again.

And I'm sure that's really hard on you after, what, 11 years of going through this and learning nine years. sorry, nine years of going through this and hiding every single emotion and this learning how to re-show those emotions and, you know, telling people thank you for listening to our story. And, you know, I know it's got to be hard on you. It is. You know, I want people to read the book, but for me to tell people, I hope you enjoy it, is like saying, I hope you enjoy my pain. Yeah. So that for me, it's hard to say. that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you've went through stuff, you know, even the past year, like stuff really, like pretty dark.

Especially after Shelby's trial ended. Do you want to go into any of that or no? I can. I think it's important that people know and know what happened. I attempted suicide, spent four days in ICU. They did not know if I was going to make it for the first few. And why, like, what led you, I mean, besides the obvious, which is like you lost your son. But this happened after like a good thing. A conviction. Yeah, I mean, it was a good thing. But like, you know, in your mind, your mind took you somewhere else, though. Yeah. I felt alone and lost.

I'd live for nine years. And that's all I did was try to figure out, you know, at first, where was he? And then what happened to him? and I felt like I had no meaning left. Yeah. And so, so it kind of sounds like closure to you was almost like closure to you. Does that make sense?

Like, yes. Like, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, I can't wait till the trial. We,

right. We want justice for Markey. We want justice for Pauline. But that justice did not help where you were. Yeah. And it's closure. When you hear the word closure, closure where some people might mean,

which I don't know how closure could ever mean to anybody lost someone close to them that it's like good now because that's not what it means. But I think it literally meant closure to you like closure period. And you're like, okay, well, we got justice now. Now I have nothing lived for. Is that kind of how you felt? Yes, it is. Yeah. And I was completely lost.

And I'd like I said, I'd live for nine years looking for answers. And that was my every day. And then, you know, we had another trial coming up. But to me, it was we got the conviction. So, you know, I just didn't want to be here anymore. The pain of the everyday reliving his death, every day was just too much. So do you feel like the conviction did not help your pain, I guess? No, because it doesn't bring Markey back.

Yeah. You know, it hurt another family because they lost their loved one because he went to jail. You know, yes, he did this, but it still, it hurt that family. And for me, it was like I was causing them pain. Yeah. So, you know, I would, you know, especially I'm sure this episode will do good because I think a lot of people reading your books. And I think a lot of people are really enjoying it. I've saw a lot of the feedback on it.

everybody's like, man, it's crazy. They can't put it down. Yeah, the detail that you guys go into. But what, Pauline, can you tell other mothers that are in your, like, circumstance? How can they live on with all this? Never give up. Even after it's done, you can't give up. There is a reason that you're here.

You've got to still be their voice. You've got to continue to talk. You've got to talk about them. you've got to bring their name up in conversation so they're not forgotten. Yeah, I agree. And do you think that's a big reason why we had to write this book is not to let your son be forgotten? Yeah, that was part of it. Part of it for me was I felt like people needed to know exactly what we went through.

There could be another family out there that's going through something similar, and they need to know that, you know, you will get justice and you just got to keep fighting. Yeah, Pauline, do you think, I think we had touched on this earlier, and you had talked about who you're going to put your support behind in this upcoming sheriff election. But what do you feel about the justice now in Malvern? Do you think that if what we had talked about was true, like if there was some type of conspiracy, a drug cartel running, you know, deep? dark group of people in Malvern that was doing this stuff potentially.

Do you think that's over now? Do you think it's all out of there? FBI's came in. Everything's good. There's nobody that's involved anymore. Maybe if it was a cartel type thing that they've moved on from Malvern now, and they're going to go somewhere else and do probably something similar. No, I think it's going to always be here.

But as far as like our judges now, we have a judge. Judge that was Circuit Court 2, he's running for re-election. If he gets it, I know we're going to be great. And we have another judge that was running unopposed, and she's going to do wonderful in the position that the judge that was rumored to be involved, she will be in his position. I got you. I think they will both be fair, and they will do things the right way. Yeah. we can get a good sheriff in that will do things the right way it will help but i don't think

it'll ever always you know it'll disappear yeah well and and that's the thing for our show it's like there's a lot of people it's so interesting because you know the course of this podcast we've been at it for eight plus years now so you know and and we started with fun things right it was like UFOs and fun stuff like that and then you know the more that things have changed in our country. You know, it's like just a corruption aspect, the conspiracy behind a lot of things. I mean, a lot of people call conspiracy theorists like crazy. But the reality is like there's a lot of conspiracy theories that have come true,

especially over the past two, three, four, five years. And it's interesting because everything is so tribal nowadays. It's like you're either Republican or you're Democrat. You're either this or you're that. And the interesting thing about it is, is like we have done our very best to, like support and go forward to things that we feel like is going to be best for the country. That is our main goal. It's not about Republican or Democrat.

It's about what is best for our country. And when we get it wrong or we or something happens on the backside of it where we feel like, damn, you know what? We told people that this is this is what we think is the right thing. And maybe it turns out it's not as right, even though you're going to get a lot of backlash from the people that still support that side. I think that what we have to do as people is we have to be awake, be non-tribal as possible, and do what is right for us.

And that includes in your community, Pauline, in Malvern, in your county, for the sheriff, for whoever. You really have to vet these people nowadays. You really have to get to know them. You really have to understand, you know, number one, who they are, what they stand for. And then even after, if you do elect them, you got to hold them. hold them to account. You got to hold them accountable.

So, you know, Pauline, by the way, if you're, whoever your pick is for the sheriff of Malvern, because I know we have a ton of people in Arkansas that listen to our podcast, especially after your series the last time,

if he would like to come on some time and talk about some of this stuff and just talk about what his vision is for, for Arkansas, we would love to do that. We'd love to bring him on or whoever in that area. Because, I mean, it's interesting for someone that's going to come into a town,

like this and especially and I say a town like this because obviously there's been a lot of rumors corruption conspiracy I believe this happened there and so whoever whoever's going to take the role of either a judge or a prosecutor or a sheriff man they have huge shoes to fill and I think that is only right if the people of your town really understand and truly believe in whatever they stand for if that makes sense yes so we'll have to maybe we'll bring on somebody from your town just to maybe get some of their thoughts on this. And the Cooper guy, has he been, I guess he's been in law enforcement before? Yes.

He has been in law enforcement for quite a long time. The other guy's been in law enforcement, too. The other guy's been a state trooper. But I don't know. For me, the choice was pretty easy once. Kevin Cooper, he called me and talked to me and went over everything I had concerns with. And he spent two hours talking to me, making sure I understood what his vision is. Is that the guy that was on your Facebook post, by the way?

Yeah. Yes. Super. Yeah. Because it cracked me out because I think you screw with him a little bit. And if anyone knows Pauline, she's going to screw with you a little bit. But the funny thing is, it was like you were just. like, well, I don't, I still don't support you or whatever. And he's like, he's like, well, tell me

why, dude. Like, he's on your post. Like, well, just tell me. Like, he's not afraid of calling you out. Yeah. And he, yeah, and I think he does want your vote because I think it's important to him. Well, it is important because Pauline represents so many people in that, in that town, that county that got screwed over, has been screwed over multiple times. And I think Pauline is just kind of the tip of the iceberg. You know, it's like everybody looks up on this mountain of corruption. And they see Pauline in her situation. And so, you know, you are kind of a guide and light for that, for that community, that town.

And, uh, and yeah, your, your opinion on who should lead that place matters probably more than a lot of people, um, to be honest, because you dealt with this, you dealt with them, you dealt with the old system. And, and hopefully a new system comes in that is better that doesn't get charged with this or that or get arrested by FBI or, you know, whatever. Yeah. And there might be corruption behind that too. We don't know.

Yeah, we don't know. We have no idea what the deal was about that. I don't know. And we talked to that guy. We talked to the guy that was arrested about FBI, the new sheriff and seemed like a good guy. I don't know. I mean, but we don't know the whole story behind it. Who knows?

And also, keeping it also in mind, we don't really truly know, especially with our podcast and how much we've done about the U.S. government and federal agencies. We don't know how freaking deep corruption goes, even to the point where federal agencies may be involved in corruption in small towns? We don't know. You know, that's the thing you're going to think about.

It does happen. Oh, absolutely. It happens. For sure it happens. I mean, the CIA and FBI and, well,

especially CIA, I mean, there is funny because a lot of people don't realize, like the CIA in a lot in large part are some of the biggest drug runners in the world. I mean, they set up a lot of drug trafficking and, and you name it.

This is our own government. And I'm not against our government. I want the best for our government, just like you want the best for your community. But you just never know. Yeah. You don't. And it's just crazy.

When we first started talking to Pauline about the story she would tell us, I was like, Pauline, do you not realize this should be a Netflix series or this should be somewhere? Like the stuff you're telling me, I would never, ever, ever believe this stuff. Yeah. That's happening. And we did write this all in the book. And I'm telling you, Pauline and my goal is we want this as a series. and we want the corruption to be exposed.

Yeah, especially visually. I mean, it would be a pretty good series or a movie for sure. But guys, that's, Pauline, do you have anything else? Because, I mean, I don't want to, we don't want to talk about every detail. Obviously, we want people to read the book because there's so much that we have not even scratched a service on in this podcast that is in the book. Is there anything else you guys want to say before we go? Just thank you to those that have bought it. And thank you to those that are planning on buying it.

Oh, and I just want to point out, I did make a Google form. If anyone wants a signed copy, Chad is going to put the link in the description. In the description. And I also want to say thank you, too, to everyone that has bought it and supported us. This is a really hard thing, especially for Pauline living in this community to have to expose. Like, you know, I worry about her constantly. Yeah. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do for sure.

but I think that is Pauline's new mission in her life now. And I think, you know, I think Mark would want you to do exactly what you're doing, Pauline. I think you have been as good, if not better than any other mother that has been going through the same thing. All you can do is pick up and keep,

you know, continue on. And I think, you know, like you said, you had talked about that suicide attempt. And I'm glad that that did not work out because I think that you are, I think you are needed in this world.

I think that people need to hear your story. I think people need to hear your fight and, you know, and to be honest, the same time that that you were weak, I think that you could have a role to pick up other people when they are weak. So I just want to point that out. I think you're doing a great job, Pauline. I'm very proud of both of you guys for writing this book and telling your story. And I think it's going to help a lot of people. And guys, make sure you check out a mother's promise the Marquay story on Amazon.

You can get it on candle or you can order the book. And like Sherry said, we're going to put the form in. In the description, if you want to sign copy, paperback version, just fill out the form. And then as soon as you fill out the form, we will get those books ordered and we will send them to you. We will correspond with you, all that good stuff. Yeah. But I just want to mention that we only can do this in the United States. Yeah.

Only in the U.S. Because otherwise you're going to be paying like more than the book actually costs for shipping. So, I mean, you could do it. Unfortunately. I mean, you could do it. But do you really want to pay like $40, $50 for a book? Probably not. But if you do, if you really want to and you live outside the country.

You know, you can still fill the form out and just say, I'm willing to accept the $20-30 charges for shipping. So, but that's going to be it, guys, for this episode. We definitely appreciate all of you listening. And like they both said, they appreciate you buying the book so far. Make sure you go to support them. Guys, we're going to close it with Home by Northside. Until next time, we love you all very much. Peace out.

Peace out. And the storm is moving. The sky goes dark. and you feel the wind which way just holds you down waiting for the calm your desperate leaps and fears you will rise above

know that you are strong as long as love to carry you home and there's no solid ground walls are close hear the sound your chest spinning you can find

No rest Oh, does the law To carry you home To carry you all Carry you all Carry you