Is She Ok? - Two women, One unapologetic decision: no kids

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Two women, one unapologetic decision: no kids (and a plot twist). In this candid and hilariously honest episode, we’re diving headfirst into the choice to remain child-free. From dodging the classic 'you’ll regret it later' comments to exploring the joys of independence and freedom, we’re saying the quiet part out loud.  Tune in for a refreshing take on why motherhood isn’t the only measure of womanhood. Let’s normalise living life on our own terms.

Hi everyone and welcome to the If We're Okay podcast. I'm Chans and I'm Sophie and we're here to unpack life's ups and downs and all the in-betweens, having the conversations every woman's thinking about but rarely says out loud. And every week we'll chat about topics that really matter, aiming to answer that all-elusive question that we sometimes ask ourselves is she okay um Sophie hello are you okay such a good question so if we go back to week one um and I referenced like some stuff that was going on and um was not okay um and I think my words were the universe is testing me yes so last week we had an improvement I was like no we're thriving we're not just surviving life is good Wednesday this week I stand up

um which is something I do very often and my back has gone um now as a personal trainer that is not ideal um so we are suspecting it's something with a disc in my back oh god yeah it's not great um I can't sit down so it's Friday today for all of you listening so since Wednesday morning I have stood or I can lie face down oh my god it's about as comfortable as you can imagine oh it hurts to laugh um so I am in an extraordinary amount of pain but I'm remaining positive um like at this point universe come at me like it's it's one of those things it's like there wasn't an acute injury I wasn't doing anything yeah exciting I wish there was a better story um but yeah no aside from that life is good um clients have been amazing and super understanding and have been picking up their

own weights um fabulous so shout out to all of you guys for for that um and yeah I've got a another workshop next week which I am very excited about um so this time it's a women's lifting workshop um amazing yeah I'm really excited they always go really well it's just a bunch of women like whoever wants to come it's free it's at the gym I work in um and essentially just teaching them how to lift safely going through like a full body workout um and we do it in the center of the gym so they can get some confidence and really find their feet um so I love it and hopefully they will too um and yeah I think that's so great because you know one of the things I imagine if I were to ever go to a gym and start lifting the thing that would probably scare me the most is seeing all the like you know they're like the men in the lifting zone with you know their guns out and feeling terrified to go near the weights so I think having something

like this is probably really good at bringing confidence and like I will say like those men that you're probably referencing like teddy bears like they're like yeah i bet most like it's like 99 of the general public are good people like they will help you like you're always gonna get the old dickhead like that is like you get that in tesco's um yeah yeah like generally like it's a really safe environment and i think there's a lot of stigma and sometimes that's like us projecting it onto other people it's not necessarily definitely you know it's a really safe environment and I think there's a lot of stigma and sometimes that's like us projecting it onto other people it's not necessarily definitely you know it's kind of like we look at people in good shape or people that go to the gym and we make assumptions um but actually they're they're just people that that's something that they enjoy and it's yeah

they're probably not even noticing the rest of us they don't like I always say I could walk through the weight section in my underwear and no one would no one would notice like no one would okay Sophie that's a lie for anyone who doesn't know Sophie has a ridiculously amazing body um so everyone would turn to look at Sophie no but I get your point yeah no no one like no one honestly um so yeah but that's that's me I'm immobile but I'm good how are you chan are you okay I am actually yes I am okay um following on from the feeding drama of my baby we actually went to a private pediatrician love the NHS I have a lot of a lot of love for the NHS they've always been super super good for us but

in this one situation I think it was time for us to to just spend the money and go private and saw an amazing doctor who has kind of put us on a slightly different path to what we were on and it's only been a couple of days but I'm I'm able to feed my son um and I'm able to feed him while we're sitting down in a calm way and he's actually taking the milk and I'm trying not to get too excited about it because I've had some of these moments before but while I'm in that moment and I'm feeding him I'm just trying to like soak it all in because it is such a luxury for me to be able to do it um so yes for you like I can see it on your face as well like look like you look lighter you're like you look happy I'm so happy for you yeah it's I feel like we're turning a bit of a corner which is good however next episode I may say something completely different so who

knows but for now we appreciate it this week we'll take it for now yeah I will exactly get that um so this week before we get started this week we're going to be talking about um our two very different experiences but essentially the topic of not wanting to have children as a woman um before we get started I do want to acknowledge that this is a really hard conversation for a lot of people um I have had people very close to me in my life who have been desperate to conceive um and have really struggled with it and some of them have adopted or found alternative routes but I do really want to appreciate that whilst that is not my story um my heart truly goes out to those people because I you know we have to kind of I do feel like we

almost have to put a disclaimer and like this conversation won't be for everyone especially because like me personally like I'm quite open about how I feel about it and I think sometimes it can come come across as quite blunt um but it's not without consideration to those people who feel very differently. Secondly, Chans, I actually want to start with you today. Reason being, you were somewhat of a trailblazer as the first woman I ever met, and at the time we were girls, just two little young things um but you were the first woman or girl I ever met who made the statement of I don't want kids um so I'm gonna hand it over to you and yeah thank you um and yeah thanks for doing that the same right me Sophia I think you're right it's it's a delicate

subject whichever way you try and cut this it is it is a difficult topic to talk about and we are very mindful of that um on that note i found some interesting statistics that i wanted to share with you um so the average age of people who are becoming parents now has increased yeah um for men it's 33 and for women it's now 30 plus the number of births are actually at a record low and people aren't having kids for a number of reasons so like you mentioned it might be that they physically can't it could be finances it could be lack of support lack of a village it could be that they're focused on careers it could be that they just don't want to all completely valid reasons um and only children only child families are actually projected to

constitute 50 of all uk families within seven years and the reason i wanted to just touch on those stats is for for a lot of people i think it can be quite hopeful to know that you don't have to do these things at the age of 21 like my mother did um you don't have to do these things at the age of 21 like my mother did. You don't have to do these things full stop and you don't have to do them in a way that's the cookie cutter method that we were all brought up watching in movies. I'm actually surprised that the average age is still, for me, that's so low. Yeah, I mean, I thought it'd be higher as well. And I do think it's another thing of like people are pursuing careers for like longer and like with the kind of like IVF and stuff like that, like knowing that there is stuff that can help you conceive at a later age. I think taking the pressure off a lot of people. Yeah, definitely.

And I think like a lot of people aren't meeting their partners yeah agreed like I just I think there are so many factors that go into it um yeah the world is a very different place now yeah and if the like the people only having one kid I think a that's because people are probably starting families later I do also wonder how much of that comes down to people feel a societal pressure to have a child yeah they tick that box they're kind of like cool like we've done that we don't have to do it again like yeah I know it sounds kind of a bit heartless but I do wonder how much like I'm sure there are so many factors like you said but I do wonder like if that is part of it like we want to give our parents one grandchild. Yeah. I think also people have the experience of one and maybe realize they don't

want to do it again. Not saying that that's how I feel, but maybe. When it comes to my story, I mean, Sophie's right. As far as I can remember I never saw myself as as being a mother I loved having I loved my life I loved having a really organized life I loved having freedom and I think someone who worries as much as I do because I worry a lot um was also just one less big thing in my life to worry about and so I had I had zero interest interestingly, especially as an Indian woman, I wasn't afraid to say it out loud. Which, you know, a lot of, a lot of people within my culture probably wouldn't say. And then as I got older, I fell in love with the man that I ended up marrying. And from the minute we started dating, I was very honest with him about the fact that I don't want to have children. And I distinctly remember him saying to me,

Chans, if we have a family, we'll have a great life. If we don't have a family in that way, we will still have a great life. And, you know, even though I knew that perhaps he wanted to be a father, or that was something he might have thought about, it was never a pressure that was ever put on me. We love Matt for that. Yeah, I know, he's a good one. And then, you know, suddenly the years fly past

and time feels like it's running out. And you're right, Sophie, you know, with new innovation, women are able to have children slightly later, but that feeling doesn't stop. I think it's, you know, it's a biological thing that happens. And my husband and I think it's, you know, it's a biological thing that happens. And my husband and I had a conversation. We were in the Lake District and we had a conversation where we said,

look, we actually just need to make a decision one way or another. Are we going to do this? Because if we are, we probably need to start trying. Or if we're not, we need to make that decision and move on with our lives.

And so we had a really frank conversation on this holiday. And I think we said something like, right 2024 we'll start trying because I think for me I was worried that the regret of not doing it would be too heavy and it wasn't something that you wanted to do but you were also a little bit curious I think so I think it was more because I was imagining this child with this person that yeah I hadn't had for my whole life. And that really changed something for me. And so we made this big decision, you know, and we said in however many months we'll start trying.

The next day I did a test and my son was actually a little surprised. And we had to have a discussion about what we were going to do another second discussion um and the reality is when I saw that test change I realized that that the decision was out of my hands in probably in the best possible way for someone like me I felt like the universe was saying this is coming your way because you need it to happen in your life. And the more we left it up to you to make that decision, the more you kick the can down the road. And in that moment, it just felt like it was the right thing to do. And, you know, I have some incredible friends who have chosen to have a child-free life. And I look at these women and I have always looked

at these women and I just think you're doing such amazing things with your time. They're studying, they're learning, they're traveling, they're just doing, you know, all these amazing creative things. And the truth, I think, Sophie, or what I felt is that I kind of stalled a little bit. And I think I needed something big to happen in my life to really push me to become the person that I was going to become at this stage in my life um I I felt like I stalled when it came to my own personal growth uh and it was interesting after that so then you know you find out you're pregnant you wait you tell people we're going to have a baby and I think with most people they're probably like oh my god congratulations that's wonderful with me there was an element of

silence with a lot of people and I think probably thought because I'd been so vocal about not wanting to have a baby um this is so interesting because we've had that was conversation um yeah I will be honest when you told me you were pregnant yeah obviously I was like I'm so happy for you but I was also like scared and worried for you not for you not because I thought you didn't think you could handle it or anything like that but I was like you had been like my ally in not wanting to have kids and for me if I was put in that position or if I was in the putting you weren't put in that position but if that was a conversation the other way around I don't know how I'd how I'd have been feeling um so my concern was like I want to make sure you're okay yeah I will be happy if you're

happy and that was my thing it was like if you want this I support you 100% if you don't want this I also support you 100% and and I think the people who knew me the best I think that's exactly what they were thinking I think it was always along those lines of this is a surprise but if this is what you want to do we will support you but cautiously I think there was a there was a big element of that and you know look I think there's a difference between if I had longed for a child my entire life and then I got pregnant and then I dealt with everything that having a baby throws at you I'd probably be handling things in a different way than I am right now because the reality is I'm struggling I find it really really hard being a new parent than I am right now, because the reality is I'm struggling. I find it really,

really hard being a new parent. Do I regret my decision? Sometimes, yes, I do. You know, completely honestly, I do. In another life, maybe I would have been bolder and I would have chosen differently. But in this life, in this life, I feel like this amazing little person has been sent to completely break down who I was, all of my worst traits, all of my habits. And actually what he's going to do is he's helping me to rebuild myself into, into an even better version. And it's hard. And it's, I cry a lot and I find find it really difficult, and I miss my old life tremendously, but my family feels complete, and I'll tell you the one thing I am firm on, and this is something that my husband and I discussed when we found out we were pregnant, is our family is this, it's one and done, for many reasons, all the reasons I listed above, financial, you know, the level of support, our our careers all of these things

and and the reality is families come in all shapes and sizes and forms and I think all of us just need to be braver about making those choices so yeah the woman who or the girl that you met who was adamant she wasn't going to have kids bloody went and had a kid she had the baby it's plural stopping at one so I'm you know I haven't completely lost myself one I don't trust anything you say anymore chance like she's gonna birth an army at this rate but no like I'm yeah like I I love everything about your story because I just I think that you have owned it like you're very honest about how you feel how you felt previously and I just I think that there's so much strength in that and I think that it's really

inspirational for other women to hear because I think that like yes having a child is a blessing but that doesn't mean you have to like love every second or not say it's hard like not be honest about it and I think that yeah the way you're handling it is actually like amazing thanks Soph and it's okay to change your mind you know that's the other thing I mean it's a bit late for you but yeah well yeah I mean I can't go back but but yeah no like a hundred like and I love that as well because it's like I I think that sometimes changing your mind is seen as a weakness. Yeah. It's like, you should be changing your mind as you get older and as you change.

Like, you can, like, there is nuance, there is like different circumstances. Definitely. Like, yeah, 100%. Like, in some ways, I've changed my mind. Yeah. I've changed my mind um yeah so like for me growing up I never questioned if I wanted kids um I come from not a perfect family but an amazing family so it's me my mum my dad and my two sisters um and I just I guess we grew up in like the Disney generation of like you get you grow up you you get married you have kids like it was just not something and also culturally like it's not

something I ever thought to challenge um interestingly when I look back now I never necessarily thought I never necessarily wanted children I just assumed it was what was going to happen. And I think that in all honesty, if things had worked out differently in relationships and stuff like that, I probably would have done it just because it was the natural course of events or what I saw as the natural course of events. So I only questioned it the first time when I was in my twenties and something for another episode, but long story short, I realized in my 20s and something for another episode but long story short I realized in my 20s that I wasn't getting periods um so it was kind of this ongoing kind of

search to figure out why this wasn't happening um and I was sat down in the doctor's office and bear in mind I was in my early 20s and this doctor just kind of turned around to me and was like well do you want kids and I was like um and it wasn't something that I never even did the math of like you're not having periods yeah it never crossed my mind so I kind of looked at him and was like um and he was like well I need to know and I was like I mean um uh and in my head all I could think was if I say no yeah support in the future I'm not gonna I'm gonna have like a red mark against my name because I said yeah so I just sat there and I was like um uh yes yes I I I do want children and kind of fumbled around with my words, but was like, yes, I do.

So I thought it was the right answer. So I got home and I sat down on my bed and I almost forced myself to cry. Like, I remember it so clearly. And I was like, oh, my God, they basically told me I can't have children. Because that's what they were saying. And then after about 30 seconds, I was like, I'm not sad. I'm like, this is, it was a really weird experience. Because I realised that all the emotions that I should, I felt like I should have been feeling when you are told that you might not be able to have kids.

They just weren't there. And it wasn't like a numbness. It wasn't a protective thing. I was just like, oh, like, wonder what I want for lunch. Generally my thought process. It's interesting, isn't it? Because ultimately you're trying to mourn something you've never had. Yeah.

But I just, I wasn't, it was, it was the first time that I sat there and I questioned, I was like, why aren't I sad? And I was like, yeah't I sad and I was like yeah it's because I actually it's not something that I really actually want yeah and then kind of like time passed and to be honest I kind of forgot about it then I moved to Spain and in my second year in Spain I lived in Mallorca um you came out to visit me um I did. And when I was over there, I was taking Spanish lessons. And there was a couple in my Spanish lessons who had retired to Mallorca.

They were from the UK. They were in their like mid 40s and they didn't have children. And we became quite friendly and I never asked like why they didn't have kids I kind of got the vibe that it was like they couldn't um but they were so in love like yeah like two 16 year olds and I looked at their relationship and it was so complete and just like I looked at it and I was like I want that yeah I want the life they have I want to be like able to retire early I want to be so in love with the person I am with that like they are my family they are my best yeah we can travel the world and I was like that's me like I'm that's who I am that's what actually makes me happy for me that is family and that is love um and it's a model of family that I knew growing up because family growing up was

kind of like 2.4 children and very conventional um but it was just a really really kind of like interesting light bulb moment um and yeah like it kind of changed things I think the combination of those things happened just actually questioning do I want this yeah now I'm so adamant that I don't and I'll be completely honest I do think part of it is like, I don't want the responsibility and don't feel like I'm in a financial position to do it. And if I did do it, I would have wanted to do it 10 years ago. Yeah, I'm 38. I don't like the thought for me of having like a dependent for another 20 years. And by now, like I haven't even met someone.

So I'd be like, yeah, and then it's another 20 years and then I'm 60 I'm like at like yeah yeah that ship has sailed and that's fine if that's not someone else's story but that is it's just I'm I'm good like I love the idea of fostering I love the idea of like adoption yeah again I don't necessarily think they're paths that I'll be going down anytime soon and yeah it's not that I hate children yeah because also like I do want to address that because I do sometimes feel that when I say like oh I don't want kids people's reactions that oh you'd be a great mum oh that's yeah I'm like yeah but I'd be a great plumber but I don't yeah mama I'd be great you know I think there's this there's this misconception sometimes because I I train people for a living

and people used to always say oh but you're so you know you're like a teacher you'd be so great with kids and the reality is there aren't that many kids that I like other people's kids you know but actually my own kids I'm like yeah okay I love you you're great and there's you know I've got some close friends and I love their kids but the general public of kids yeah I don't know I'm not a bagels fan no like I don't want to be lying at the beach and like someone's like throwing sand on me it's like I just like and you know like I know it sounds awful but like kids that are like five to what 15 like six like like you know when just like a really precocious child it's like not for me like I don't have like I just I can't but at the same time I do think that like people

think that as a woman when you say you don't want kids, me saying I don't want kids, what people hear is I hate children, specifically your children. And like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm very happy for you and the life that you've chosen. It's just not my path. Yeah. And as you know, as a woman saying it, that's that's the shocker when it's a woman saying I don't want to have children people have a problem with it because they think you're genetically disposed yeah to want yeah how selfish of you to be able to have children yeah and like I I completely get that from so my the girl that I was living with in Madrid in Spain Adriana yeah um she's gay and you know she has a kid now yeah yeah from the day I met her her like all she wanted was to have a baby and it was like we were so close and like so the same on so many levels but like polar opposite

on that and she she is now a single mother um and yeah her life purpose and I couldn't be happier for her but that would be my worst nightmare yeah you know like me having kids would always have been I'd have been doing it for a family unit and I'd have been doing it for someone else it would never be me and I actually am so grateful that things worked out the way they were um yeah the way they have done because I just yeah I think I'm too selfish I think I like my freedom and I'm yeah I'll keep a house plant alive so but you know what I think at least you you know yourself well enough to to to go right this is my decision I'm going with it and you know what I think at least you you know yourself well enough to to to go right this is my decision I'm going with it and you know our circumstances what we imagine our life will be

you know when we were 20 having a chat about what our lives were going to be neither of us knew where we were going to be when we were 30 38 no we just didn't know and you know you have to change your plans accordingly and and I guess that's that's kind of what we've done we've adjusted to things that life has thrown in our way and adapted um yeah I mean thanks for sharing all of that I think it's really it's really interesting and it it's it's also wonderful that we can be friends and have such a frank conversation about this kind of stuff where I can go Sophie I've changed my mind and you're not judging me for it no never like I've one of like one of my kind of like biggest things when it comes to a friendship is like there's no judgment like yeah when one when

someone is my friend like that's it like I'm the ride or die and I know you are as well like there's there's very I can't really think of anything you could say to me. And I'd be like, chance really hard right now. And if I was judging, I would tell you. So yeah, like I do. I just, I, I think that historically we have not treated having children as a choice and it is a choice for men and for women and I think that maybe slowly but surely society is starting to appreciate that and be more open to that and I do think that that's a really positive thing. Yeah definitely and you know if we exclude what we're seeing happening around the world when

it comes to women's choice and women's rights um I think you're absolutely right yeah the world is changing enough that we do have a choice now and that is pretty incredible yeah I agree I think on that note yes yeah I feel like we could talk about this all day, but yeah. I know. I need to think about what I'm saying, because at some point my son's going to be old enough to listen back to this. And he's going to be like, mom,

you don't want me. We'll add that in. It's fine. Exactly. Oh, thank you so much chance i really loved this conversation today me too um you can find us on instagram yay um i am sophie gorwich and you are at c sani c s a h and i um and please give us a five star review and leave some lovely comments I'd actually really

love to hear what people think about this um so drop us the comments um you can find us on Spotify and on Apple Podcasts and we will be back soon thanks bye