It Can't Just Be Me - 10: Anxiety in parenthood? With Suzi Ruffell

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

Suzi Ruffell is a professional comedian, a parent, and one of few people who has managed to turn crippling anxiety into a successful comedy show. So Anna knew she was the person to call on for this we...ek’s dilemma, which comes from a parent who's feeling anxious about the fact they're feeling anxious.With the help of our resident psychotherapist, the wonderful Sam Pennells-Nkolo, Anna and Suzi consider whether parents should be honest with their children about their anxieties, or if they should try and keep them hidden. They ask: is anxiety just part-in-parcel of being a parent? And - if we reframe it - is it actually the ultimate expression of parental love? If you want to hear more from Suzi (why wouldn’t you!) - you can listen to her brilliant podcast OUT, or her podcast Like-Minded Friends with Tom Allen. And you can follow her on Instagram and Twitter to stay up to date with all the latest news. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to itcantjustbeme@podimo.comThis podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Sarah MylesTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:51 through some of life's biggest challenges. Search Give Me Strength wherever you get your podcasts from and join Alice on her fascinating journey. Hello and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Now, before we get stuck in, I'm going to start with a big thank you. I've had so many people who've told me they're loving the show so far, genuinely. So to all of you listeners and those of you who've trusted us with your dilemmas, honestly, thank you. We can't do this show without you. So if you are enjoying what we're doing, please support us.
Starting point is 00:01:24 Click follow wherever you're listening. Obviously, leave us a five-star rating and review. And of course, tell all your friends about us on social media. It all helps. Now, on to today's show. Our dilemma today is all about managing anxiety as a parent. And that big question, how can we make sure we don't pass our anxiety onto our kids? It's a worrying thought, but one that I think is really important to face head on. So let's get
Starting point is 00:01:53 into it. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice.
Starting point is 00:02:18 It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Now I'm joined today by the funny, fabulous and almost fearless comedian, Susie Ruffle. Susie's success includes five sellout runs at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and she's also a constant on all the big shows like Live at the Apollo, The Jonathan Ross Show
Starting point is 00:02:38 and The Last Leg. She's also a mother, wife and host of at least two podcasts including Like-Minded Friends with Tom Allen and the LGBTQI series Out. But one of the big themes in Susie's work is her battle with anxiety and the associated insomnia of waking up in the middle of the night with what she likes to call her 3am press conferences when you just can't turn off your brain. Do you know what, Susie? I hear you. So as a professional worrier and parent, who better than to tackle today's dilemma? I want to give you all a quick heads up here because today's episode does touch on the subject of suicide. So please bear that in mind when you're deciding when and how to listen. We'll
Starting point is 00:03:23 leave some useful resources in the show notes. Susie Ruffell, the woman with the best name in comedy. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Where does your name come from? Do you know? I think maybe France, but we're long, long residents of Portsmouth. No one has really left. I'm sort of the only one that's gone. Everyone's a bit like suspicious of the fact that I've gone for a while. So you guys really were the intriguing people from France, the Rafales. Well, potentially, I think more likely, like we stayed away on a boat. I think so. Maybe robbed it on the way.
Starting point is 00:03:54 A bit more rough and tumble than, like, some French aristocrats. So the Rafales. Well, listen, I'm so pleased that you could join us in the studio today, and I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on today's dilemma, which is a goodie. Yes. But before we get into that, I start every episode by asking my guest to share their very own, it can't just be me dilemma. So what have you got, Raphael? I was thinking, and I don't know if you feel the same as me, but I thought that by the time I got to 37, I would have had this sort of thing organized in my head. But it can't just be me who cares too much about what people think.
Starting point is 00:04:31 I was sold a story in my 20s that by the time I was mid-30s, I would have it sorted. And let me tell you, Anna, I haven't. Okay, I can tell you the exact age that you stopped. Oh, great. Yeah, 80. 8-0? 8-0.
Starting point is 00:04:44 That doesn't feel good. I know. It's not good. That doesn't feel good. I know. It's not good. That's the bad side. Right. But the good side is that towards the very, very end of your life, you stop caring. I know this because my mother's told me.
Starting point is 00:04:55 Oh, really? Yeah. She's about to hit 80 and she's now like, I don't give a shit. So that's official. I mean, you couldn't have given me worse news. How many years have you got then? I'm shit at maths. That's 43 years more of me many years have you got then? I'm shit at maths.
Starting point is 00:05:05 That's 43 years more of me thinking, do they like me? I hope they like me. I think I made a good impression. I hope so. You've got another 43 years of deep anxiety. Wicked. Okay, good. It's great to be here.
Starting point is 00:05:16 On that note, I am so pleased that you felt comfortable enough to share the fact that you have a deep anxiety and that you're worried about what people think about you. And you've got another 43 years to go. You'll be thrilled to know that you're not just stuck with me for the next hour because we're also graced by the presence of our resident psychotherapist, Sam Pennell-Zancolo. Hello, Sam.
Starting point is 00:05:42 Hello. Pleasure to be here as always. How are you? I'm good, thank you. Can I just check with you? Do you think it'd be 43 years or more? No, it could be tomorrow. You never know. Oh, come on.
Starting point is 00:05:51 This is what I was looking for. This is what I was looking for. You never know. She's lying. She's not allowed to lie. She's a psychotherapist. Exactly. They all lie.
Starting point is 00:06:00 They all lie. Now, listen, you guys. Susie, Sam, are we ready for this week's dilemma i am ready now amy sent this one in via email so i'll be reading it out you take your headphones off okay and by the way if you want to send in your own dilemma you can go to it can't just be me.co.uk and record a voice note, or you can do what Amy did and email us at itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. Okay, so here's the dilemma. Hi Anna, I've always been a worrier and at times in my life I think it's held me back from certain things, but I've generally been able to keep it in check and I've managed to build a good career as a secondary school teacher and a fairly
Starting point is 00:06:43 good social life, etc. Since having a toddler though, I feel like my anxiety has gone into overdrive. Friends of mine say that they feel stronger than ever after becoming a mum, but I feel the opposite. I found myself worrying about things that didn't bother me before. I worry about her safety a lot, especially when she isn't with me, and my husband says he thinks I'm overprotective of her. All I want is to raise a strong, fearless daughter who's able to enjoy life to the full without being too cautious. But I can already see some of my habits rubbing off on her. She'll tell other kids to be careful in the playground, and it takes a lot of encouragement for her to try out new things. How can I manage my anxiety and make sure she doesn't take on too much of it this is a really difficult one so Susie what is your knee jerk reaction to that uh sympathy I
Starting point is 00:07:33 really sympathize with that so I have a daughter she's a toddler and I sort of want to wrap her up on cotton wool but my wife is very much like go to the top of the climbing frame throw yourself off it you'll survive and it'll be good for you. I've always been an anxious person. And I really feel like when I became a mum, a lot of things I thought I'd put to bed as an adult with my anxiety, sort of reared up again, like the health anxiety of being like, oh God, is she okay? Is everything okay? I'm going to go and check her again. I'm going to check that she's breathing. And they're very little. You know, I'm going to go and have an extra look. And if I don't check, well, then I haven't checked.
Starting point is 00:08:09 Then I should go and check because what about if something was wrong? And then you're in the vicious cycle. And I don't know. And I feel like the only way to get out of it is by like trusting yourself and going, I have checked. And now I know that she's fine. And so now I must trust that I have checked. But it's quite hard.
Starting point is 00:08:24 I can totally relate to those feelings, but it's quite hard. I can totally relate to those feelings manifesting and feeling quite overwhelming. Well, let me ask both of you. So Sam and Susie, because I'm not a mum, but you're both mums. Have you noticed your own anxieties reflected back at you in your children? I mean, Sam, you've got a pained expression and nodding. Yeah, because it's quite frightening when that happens, when you see yourself and your anxiety manifests in them and the way they speak to you. So sometimes my sons will say things that I've clearly said to them in the tone of voice that I've said to them. And I'm really shocked. Things like, be careful of walking in the garden. There might be a tiny bit of glass that you cut yourself on. And then we have to take you to, like it's catastrophizing essentially. And my son's
Starting point is 00:09:08 very close in age and they'll be talking to each other like that. And I've realized, oh my God, that's me. And what about your husband? Is he anxious? Annoyingly relaxed. He's just like, you know, they'll be fine. It's okay. Which is very unhelpful when you're feeling anxious. Yeah, of course. And so for you, Susie, are you seeing your anxiety reflected back at you in your daughter? I'm trying not to. I'm really trying not to because I'm very scared of spiders. And I'm really trying not to be like, ah, there's a spider. So my wife's like, if I react, she'll be like, it's fine to have spiders in the house, isn't it, mama? I'm like, yes I'm like yes it is it's great actually I invited them here we're having a party here have a hat but there have been times when you hear I've heard her saying things to the cat where she's like be
Starting point is 00:09:57 careful careful on the stairs to the cat oh my god I love her yeah which is gorgeous yeah I think that there's an extra thing that we probably should mention because I think as well what Amy's maybe not giving herself a bit of a break about is the fact that she was probably pregnant for part of Covid certainly the tail end of it if she's now got a toddler and like I think that for health anxiety a worldwide pandemic I think changed all of us in some way or another. And I think bringing a child into the world during that time as well. Yeah, like I really relate to that. I think that's fascinating that, as you say, that perhaps for Amy, she was pregnant in lockdown. And so for all of us, our health anxiety just went bananas, didn't it? So coming out of that,
Starting point is 00:10:42 she might be worse than perhaps she might be otherwise. Totally. Sam, research at Manchester University has found that one in four children in the UK has a mum with a mental illness, including anxiety. So this must be something that you see fairly often in your clients with children. Tell me a little bit more about that. Do they come in and talk about their own health anxieties or their own mental health issues and how it might be affecting their children? I mean, yeah, but it's interesting. Women tend to do it more than men. Do they? So again, this is another, you know, it's one of my bugbears. Typically, men will present as being more relaxed, not across the board, but women will always say, I feel so anxious. I'm so
Starting point is 00:11:26 anxious. And now my child's going to be anxious. It's like, well, yeah, maybe. And I'm not a fan of labels. You know, what's the anxiety trying to tell you? What are you trying to tell yourself? Because actually it's quite healthy to be anxious. It's okay. We're not supposed to be rid of it, but it's just this idea of what do we want to present to our children or not present? What kind of energy and atmosphere do we want to have in the house? And I always say to everyone, it's like in the round, is your child having a good experience? Most of the time they are, you know, but we really hyper-focus on these moments of stress and anxiousness and are quite unkind to ourselves. And I think in the round, is it going okay? Most people say yes. And again, it's that catastrophic thinking of I'm so anxious.
Starting point is 00:12:06 But are you? So it's really looking at what does that actually mean when we say that? I'm really interested to hear that it's mainly women who are saying I'm struggling with anxiety and I'm really worried about my children. Why might that be? Is there a difference in the genders? Well, this is a difficult one because I think it's nature nurture, it's context, it's societal. Men are bred to be like, I'm really relaxed, you know, even if they're not. But there is something,
Starting point is 00:12:36 again, the research shows in terms of how boys relate, how girls relate, the type of play that they have. And that's not to say that girls just sit and read and boys throw themselves off trees. It's just this idea of how they use their bodies, their physicality, and how that presents with mums, dads, and how we relate, like managing risk. Okay, if they're at the top of a climbing frame, how do we feel when they're doing that? Typically, children will hurt themselves when we're anxious, because they're learning to manage the risk. And if we're going, oh my God, then they kind of go, oh, my God, and they might hurt themselves. So how do you manage this in your household, Susie? Because in an all-female household, and if we're hearing that from a societal point of view, from a gender also more gregarious, whereas I would be a bit more
Starting point is 00:13:25 worried. But it is something that I've been very mindful of because my mom's quite anxious and my nan's quite anxious, though we'd never had that language when I was growing up. It was everyone was a worrier. Oh, they worry that. We all worry. We're not happy unless we're worrying. That was sort of like the mantra of the family. And now I'm very aware that I don't want to give her that narrative that I had. You know, it wasn't in a negative way at all. I had a lovely childhood, but that narrative of we're worriers. That's what we do. We all worry.
Starting point is 00:13:50 Don't worry about it. We worry. We're all worriers. I want her to feel a bit more in charge of it than I did as a teenager. I'm going to ask you both a little bit more about that because just thinking back to my own parenting, my mum definitely has suffered her whole life with various, I'd say, anxiety disorders. Very sadly, her mother took her own life
Starting point is 00:14:12 when she was a teenager. So I think that trauma for my mum has clearly stamped her emotionally for the rest of her life. And that then got bled down to us, really, as children. And my dad had lots of sort of control issues, which again crept down to his children. And it's certainly something that I've picked up on because I'm quite an anxious person. Does that ring true for the two of you? I mean, Susie, you said that your mum and your nan
Starting point is 00:14:40 were very anxious. What about on your dad's side? No, my dad's like, everything will be all right. It's all all right. He's a real geezer bloke. Everything're very anxious. What about on your dad's side? No, my dad's like, everything will be all right. It's all all right. He's a real geezer bloke. Everything's all right. You know that meme of that cartoon dog and there's fire all around it and the dog speech bubble is like, everything's fine.
Starting point is 00:14:54 That's sort of my dad in a way. Like, things go wrong for my dad quite a lot. He's been bankrupt a couple of times. He's had businesses. He's lost businesses. He was actually brilliant. When I was starting out in stand-up, if I fucked up, if I did something wrong or what, he's always like, don't worry, like get yourself up. Don't set off. I love him for that. Keep going, keep going, keep going.
Starting point is 00:15:12 Like, you know, anything that's worth getting to will take a long time. You've got to deal with the knocks. That is what life's about. Life's about the journey. Like he's very good at being like that, whereas mum would be like, oh God, don't tell me. Just don't tell me. Don't tell me where you're driving to. Don't tell me where you're gigging. So you've clearly got the anxiety from your mum, the worrying. But what about your dad? Because I mean, that must have played out in the fact you're a very successful comedian. I think that's down to him going for stuff and not being embarrassed to go for stuff and failing and being okay with failing. He'll be like, oh, I've done things wrong a hundred times. Don't worry. That's such a positive message to get from a parent, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:15:48 Just go for it, babe. It doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think that I try and be more like that when I'm overthinking things. Yeah. Which is sort of a natural place for me to fall. But then as you say, you've still got your mum and your nan in your ear going,
Starting point is 00:16:01 oh, this is going to go wrong. This is a worry. Yeah, or like, oh, God. That's my mum's noise constantly when she's with my daughter oh oh oh she's oh oh I wouldn't let her do that oh right oh god oh she's oh she's really brave and you know and you'll be like do you want to just stop with the constant sort of narration it's adorable and it's because you know it really comes from a place of love. But I don't want that to be the narrative.
Starting point is 00:16:28 Yeah. Because I think that may be fed in unintentionally from a place of love. Absolutely. So what about for you, Sam? How did your parents
Starting point is 00:16:36 affect you in terms of your attitude? Exactly. My mum and dad are very different. And similarly, my mum does that with my boys.
Starting point is 00:16:44 Oh my gosh. Oh, no, don't do that. Every every minute it's kind of micromanagement which she did with me which I do now with them and I'm trying to undo that whereas my dad was just like yeah it'll all be fine I have taken on my mum's ways of being I suppose and I can really see it when we're together because I it's like it's hyper and I think we do this when our parents around or figures of attachment we tend to become I'm like on overdrive when she's around I'm a bit more relaxed when she's not not in a horrible way but just because I'm sort of trying to manage everything and are you the same as me and that you like don't want her to worry yes so then you're like you're managing everyone yeah and
Starting point is 00:17:23 then really managing no one yeah of course and then you're managing everyone and then really managing no one. Yeah, of course. And then people are like, what's up with her? She's crazy. How much do kids sense when their parents are anxious, even though as a parent, you're trying to mask it? I don't think we can hide it. I think it's the idea of the more we're trying to pretend on some level, the worse it is. I think it's a sense, it's an energy, it's an atmosphere. And I think I've said it before on here, often when you ask clients, do you remember your childhood? If they've had a particularly traumatic childhood, they'll often say, I can't remember. And then if I ask, can you remember the atmosphere? Can you remember the feeling? They remember that. So if you think of the energy of what the house is like, the atmosphere,
Starting point is 00:18:01 that's what children remember. they don't remember the little details but that's what they're picking up on is it worth saying something like oh I feel a bit worried about that but let's do it anyway I think so right I think being honest as much as you can be like naming that feeling yeah mommy's feeling really frightened or angry right now I'm just going to take a moment rather than trying to pretend because they seem to feed off that. If you then name it for a parent, how much will that child then want to fix it for? Because I was very conscious when I was growing up. My dad was really stressed out. My mum was very unhappy. And so as her only daughter, I wanted to fix that. That made me very anxious as a child that I wanted both my parents to be okay. So if we're saying, mummy's just sad right now,
Starting point is 00:18:48 is that going to actually make your children more anxious? I mean, I think it's a hard question. Parents will often talk to me about this sort of thing. And it's this idea of, well, we have to look at what's right for us as people. And if you can say, mummy's really sad, but own that. It's not for you to worry about. Mummy will sort it out because it's mummy's feelings. Like you had feelings and sometimes you get sad and mummy can't fix that.
Starting point is 00:19:09 So you're modelling this sort of healthy attachment to your own feelings and your own stress and theirs. Because often we try to save and fix them. And what we're trying to do is build resilience. So when we're not there, they can manage themselves. Yes. So I think modelling that, yes, I'm angry. Yes, I'm sad. Yes, I'm happy.
Starting point is 00:19:23 Yes, I'm joyful. All those things. But they are mine. And those are yours. And that's really sacred in a way, rather than trying to fix it. I think that that's really good advice, isn't it? As you say, modeling how you want your child to be by saying, these are my feelings and I will fix it. And this is how I'm going to do it so that the child then feels safer, I guess, within it. So how much power do we actually have in shaping our children? I'm saying this because I'm conscious of the fact that Amy says that her own anxiety held her back from doing some things in life. And it's clear that she doesn't want her daughter to feel the same way. So how much do we influence and shape our kids? Well, it's interesting because it's this
Starting point is 00:20:05 idea of projecting ourselves onto our children and knowing, well, what's me and what's them? And often people talk about not knowing the difference. So my stress or my anxiety or my worry is mine. The worry of my daughter or my son might turn out into that is my worry. It's not their worry. So it's our own projection of our own fear onto them. Similarly, when parents want their kids to do really well, that sort of achievement-based, you're going to do amazingly. How does that manifest? That's all about the parent. That's not actually about the child. So it's about separating the two, which can be quite hard. Well, also, because thinking back to Amy's
Starting point is 00:20:37 dilemma here, she's talking about her daughter in the playground and she's been very cautious in the playground. Maybe that's just her personality. Maybe it isn't Amy creating the stress for her daughter. Do you think as parents we've just got to allow our children to develop their own little personality? I mean, Susie, what do you think? Well, I think there's actually probably a nicer way that Amy could spin this in that her child's being really caring to the other children. Maybe a nicer way to frame it for her could be,
Starting point is 00:21:04 that's what I do when I'm caring for her. And now my little girl is caring for other people in the playground. And actually, that's a really kind trait to say to people, be careful. You're so right about not putting anything on them. That's what we're trying to do is just sort of have to let them be. Sam's the one that we need to be asking about this. This is just a comedian's bloody opinion who's trying to like put the jigsaw pieces together of getting it right. I think it's hard because as a parent, I can say one thing and as a therapist, I can say another. So I know when I'm saying to clients, you know, we must try this and we must do that. And it's really helpful to do this. I'm saying it to myself as well, because actually when you're in it as a
Starting point is 00:21:39 human, it's very hard to do. It's not just this binary thing. It's so hard when you're in it to separate your own emotions from your child. The idea of, well, you've put your love and care into something and if they don't turn out in a way that you want them to, something goes on for us. What am I not doing well enough? Then it becomes about us. And is it about, I mean, going back to my initial thing about caring too much for other people think is another thing that we're worried about are people's responses in the playground when in fact just going oh yeah they're like that sometimes that's a really good point because that judgment you get from other adults and parents must be huge yeah yeah that's very difficult I think to manage do you get that Susie do you feel that
Starting point is 00:22:22 I mean we've had bizarre encounters with people who we don't know, where like a woman in a cafe said to me, oh, so who does all the dad stuff? And I was like, oh no, come on. Seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, okay. And I was like, oh, we just, we just try our best to make sure she's happy. And the woman didn't know what to say. People have asked like really inappropriate questions. Like she's got blonde hair and blue eyes and she looks sort of different to me. And someone said to me, did you use the Spanbank in Denmark? Because she sort of looks a bit Danish.
Starting point is 00:22:49 And I was like, I don't know you. It was like 9.26. I was like, I'm not going to talk about like, come. Until at least 9.30. Like, how dare you think that it's okay? We live in Brighton, so it's like a very queer friendly place. But I think that if we lived somewhere where we were the only gays in the village,
Starting point is 00:23:08 there might be more of a performance element to it where I wanted people to think that we were doing a good job. If they didn't know any other gay families, it feels like there's a weird sort of pressure of being like, we're doing it just as well as everyone else. We're trying our best. And so I think that that's an extra thing that's sort of thrown in. I was just going to say, so that's an extra thing for you as a gay couple that you're like,
Starting point is 00:23:27 you know, I now feel that extra pressure that I've got to live up to the sort of heteronormative ideas of parenting. Okay, look, let's talk about the fact that in your situations, there are two people parenting and in Amy's situation as well. So Amy's husband thinks that she's overprotective of her daughter. And clearly, they've got different approaches when it comes to parenting. So Susie, I'm just thinking about you and your anxiety and your mum and your nan and how you've sort of learned that. How does your wife manage your anxiety at home? we're quite direct with each other which i think is really useful okay and i also have therapy which i'm very pro doing but alice my wife will
Starting point is 00:24:13 be like i think this is maybe something that you're overthinking like she'll be like where's the truth of this so like your anxiety is one thing and then what's like the truth and does that work for you then is that what you need to hear from your partner? Is look, it's okay. Yeah, kind of like it's okay. And now we're done with that. Like she wouldn't be super into like reassuring me about it all the time. She'd be like, we've spoken about that.
Starting point is 00:24:34 Alice is like my anchor. She's got her shit together and she's very, she's like a proper grown up. She says as a 37 year old woman. But I think that's the thing. I think about working out like where the truth of the anxiety is and then where the spiralling begins. Is that catastrophizing? Yeah, finding some space from the catastrophizing. And Sam, what could Amy's husband do, do you think, to help her situation? Because he thinks that she's overprotective as a mum. So I'm concerned about how much that might be a critical voice.
Starting point is 00:25:05 I suppose it's the idea of reframing. And it's like Susie said, instead of saying overprotective, we could be saying, you know, you really care about her safety. And I don't mean that to sound patronising, but it's this idea of we can find ways of looking at this that's a reframe and a technique. And it's a real surface technique for everyone that they can use with their partners and their kids is instead of saying like, be careful, we say we stay safe on the roads. So we're always keeping it on the sort of positive and moving forwards. Same with their partners and their kids, is instead of saying like, be careful, we say, we stay safe on the roads. So we're always keeping it on the sort of positive and moving forwards. Same with our partners.
Starting point is 00:25:30 Instead of saying you're a real grump, it could be like, actually, it'd be helpful in the morning if you tried to at least pretend to be happy to see me. So it's about that reframing of language rather than being, you know. But it's just this idea of like being really clear and positive and moving forward rather than, because anxiety is all fear-based, it's just this idea of like being really clear and positive and moving forward rather than because anxiety is all fear-based it's fear-driven it's worry-driven so when we
Starting point is 00:25:50 turn the language around it turns the feeling around it's not the other way around we're all waiting to feel different and then be different we need to be different then we'll feel different let's move on to some concrete advice and not only for Susie, although Alice sounds like she's got it absolutely sorted, but also for Amy. So Amy's in that horrible catch 22 of being anxious about being anxious, which is horrible. So in terms of concrete steps on how to resolve some of that, what could she do right away, Sam? I think one of the biggest things about anxiety is all about the fear of the future. What if this happens? What is happening? And usually it's nothing. So what is happening?
Starting point is 00:26:28 Am I okay right now? And it's a very simple technique, but it does work. Am I okay right this second? Yes. Okay. Life happens in small moments, whereas anxiety usually is projected quite far into the future. They're going to drown. They're going to this.
Starting point is 00:26:41 They're going to that. Okay. Is anything happening now? So I'd say to root herself back into this second, which is actually quite hard. So keep coming back. I'm okay now. She's okay now. We're okay now. That's it. What about longer term? As her daughter starts to grow up, what can she do to try and manage her own anxieties so that she's not projecting that onto her daughter, would you say? I would really say it's about looking at our own dysfunction, our own dysfunctional childhoods, which we've all had dysfunctional childhoods on
Starting point is 00:27:07 some level because we're just human. People make mistakes. What is about that situation that is making me feel like this? Our triggers are always about us. Our children just heighten them, just like our partners do, just like relationships do. So when we're worried about something, we have to ask ourselves, what is this actually about for me? And also a good question to ask ourselves is what's going on for me, for me right now? So when we have an argument with our partners, when we're worried about our children, it's actually about us. Look at your own childhood, look at your own development, look at your own parents. It's all of that, but that's quite hard work to do. I mean, obviously I'm going to say this, go to therapy, but you know, I think it's important because it's very hard to do by yourself. Absolutely. I mean, it's impossible to do by
Starting point is 00:27:48 yourself really. So Susie, with that in mind, what are you going to do to help manage your anxieties with your little one? You mentioned that you're having therapy. Is there anything else? Do you know what, for me, I've realized that I need time where I'm not working and I'm not parenting and I know not everyone has that luxury, But going to like a couple of yoga classes a week are actually game changing for me. Well, you know, we're lucky we live in Brighton, so we're right by the sea. It's just like having a brisk walk, even for like 20 minutes. It's so simplistic. And this is just me. But I find if I'm feeling a bit low or I'm feeling quite anxious, if go for a walk with some upbeat music it can really turn my day around so it's that moment of self-care then you're talking about it's like actually rather than being with my wife and my daughter rather than being worried about work it's just me spending half an hour on my own doing something that I really enjoy yeah exactly yeah and you find that calms you down massively Massively. Or like, again, it's sort of cliche things, but like an early night, a good night's sleep,
Starting point is 00:28:47 getting in bed at half nine, reading for half an hour and having the light off at 10. That can be like game changing to how anxious I am. And not having a drink. I love a drink. I love a glass of wine. But having four nights a week where I don't really helps. This is fascinating for me to hear, actually,
Starting point is 00:29:04 because I'm just sort of ticking off the things. You know, Sam, you know all about this anyway, because it's fight, flight or freeze, isn't it? It's how you do your anxiety. And we all do it differently. I do two things. I'll either fight and get very kind of like antsy about it and worried and grumpy about stuff, or I'll flee, I'll flight. So if things get overwhelming for me, I will go and take myself off into the middle of nowhere, in the countryside, where I'm very fortunate. I've got a little cottage up north, and I'll go and be in nature, and that will sort me out. So Susie, you're saying for you,
Starting point is 00:29:37 don't drink too much, an early night, and some time on your own. And do you know what? I think another thing that's really important for me is not to berate myself about it. So good self-talk. Yeah, because there have been times when I've been like, oh God, of course this is happening to me. Of course I'm anxious. Of course this, of course that. And that's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy because then you're telling yourself, I'm such an anxious person. I'm really struggling. Of course I'm struggling because I always struggle.
Starting point is 00:29:58 And this is how it's always been for me. Whereas with my therapist, I remember her saying to me once, yeah, but your anxiety is sort of part of what makes you, you. I've written stand up about my anxiety and loads of people relate to it. And it's very normal. Like there are very few people that are going through the world, feeling nothing about big, important parts of their life. It's quite normal. And so that's an extra thing I'd like to add. The not being too mean on myself. Well, the kind self-care is important, but I guess what's interesting about what you're saying there as well, Mind self-care is important. But I guess what's interesting about what you're saying there as well is you've turned your anxiety into success,
Starting point is 00:30:28 which is a great way of reframing. It's like you were saying, Sam, it's reframing, isn't it? Going, actually, I'm a really anxious person. Let's do something with this and let's make this successful. Let's make it public. Let's talk about it, which is a very clever thing to do. Amy, if you're listening, thank you for sending in your dilemma. I really hope that you can take something useful from this conversation.
Starting point is 00:30:48 Don't be too hard on yourself, Ames. That's it. I was just going to say above all, give yourself a break. I'll bet you're smashing it, babe. It sounds like it. I'll bet you're smashing it. Parenting is incredibly hard and you're never going to get it right all the time. And just ask my mum, Janet, she'll tell you that.
Starting point is 00:31:02 She's still going on about it at 80. So in the meantime thank you to my lovely guest today Susie Rufflin, Sam Pennells and Kolo you've both been amazing and thank you for being so open as well Susie you're so wonderful that I'm not going to let you go oh great yeah I know you're staying I've got a couple more quick fire dilemmas for you get those headphones on I'm popping them on. Now, we actually recorded these at an event that we did with the Postcards from Midlife podcast at the London Podcast Show. And what I'm looking for here is knee jerk advice. Yeah. So the first
Starting point is 00:31:36 dilemma is from Abby, and she has a question about her boyfriend who she's been with for four and a half months. Hi, Anna. My name's Abby. I'm just wondering if I should be worried that my boyfriend is friends with his ex from about 10 years ago. Yes. Susie Ruffell, hand up. No, not at all. Don't be worried at all. Exactly. I'm friends with, I'm really good friends with one of my exes. And I think actually they're friends and there's nothing there actually means he's probably a really good guy. A hundred percent. So I'm really good friends with both my exes as well. And they're family to me and I love them.
Starting point is 00:32:09 And I wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm saying don't be worried at all about the fact that your bloke is friends with his ex. What would you say, Sam? I would agree. We can't micromanage our partner's relationships as well. As soon as we start doing that, it's a road to disaster. Have you ever had a partner that's tried to micromanage your friendship with your ex? The worst.
Starting point is 00:32:27 I know, right? Or like with your friends in general. That's like, that's red flag time. Out of interest, what would you say to Abby? And I don't know whether she is, but if she were trying to micromanage her other half, what would you say to her? There's just no point. There's no point in doing that. It wastes energy. Often people say, you know, with this kind of dilemma, I'm worried they're going to cheat on me with them. But if they're going to cheat on you, they're going to cheat on you anyway, with them, with someone else. There's just no point. It just makes us more anxious.
Starting point is 00:32:56 And it's easier said than done, but we have to try to let it go. If they're going to have friendships, relationships, whatever that looks like, we cannot micromanage it. We just have to manage ourselves. And I guess if it's being done with respect as well, if your partner's saying, listen, I'm friends with my ex, there's nothing going on. I'm putting you front and center in our relationship. You've got to trust me. Then ultimately, they have just got to let it go, haven't they? And just trust that person. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you very much, gang. Okay okay the next one is from Steph hi Anna my name is Steph and I'm in my mid-40s my dilemma is with my 14 year old son who doesn't understand the value of
Starting point is 00:33:34 money and I'm trying to work out how much is it acceptable to spend on him but I also really want to save so that I can retire early and go off into the sunset on my own without my 14-year-old. Okay, the pair of you are looking fairly nonplussed by this one. So we know that parents are caring for their kids for years longer than they used to. So should Steph kick her son out at 18, sell up and travel the world, Susie? That feels a bit extreme. But I do think knowing the value of money is very important. I think that when you get to 14, 15, I don't know what the law is these days, but when I was 14, I was waitressing, you know, and I used to quite like having my own money. Portsmouth got a top shop in sort of the early noughties. I mean, the fact that I could like work for two days and
Starting point is 00:34:19 then go in there and be like, I want to get a pair of jeans and a dressy top. And the fact that it was my money, it felt brilliant. It feels great to earn your own money. What are you saying about this, Sam? This is a difficult one. It's so difficult because they just don't get it for a long time. They don't understand it. It just doesn't make sense to them. I mean, mine are very small at the moment,
Starting point is 00:34:37 but I'll say, if they want to go to the corner shop, it's like, I want a nice lolly. It's like, no, please can I have a nice lolly first? And then it's like, well, how much? They start maths quite early. So it's like literally, okay, we sit down and we'll read for a bit and you get tempeh. And after that tempeh, you can go and get your ice lolly.
Starting point is 00:34:52 And they start to kind of see this exchange of, okay, I do this, I get that, I work essentially for it. And as they get older, you continue that. It's not free. I think it's powerful for parents to say, we can't have that because mum and your daddy don't have the money. We don't have money. We don't have it.
Starting point is 00:35:06 Haven't been to work yet. They don't quite understand it. But if you keep saying it and modelling, soon enough they get it. So are we saying that for Steph, she's got to model what kind of adult she wants her son to be, right? It's very difficult because if they don't understand it, I think a hard line needs to be drawn. But it's a painful, because it's a battle. And children will go on and on and on. And the easy route is to go,
Starting point is 00:35:32 okay, have it. You know, we've all been there, but we know how that goes. So it's about really staying strong in your own boundary, because it's so much more than just about money. It's about labor. It's about time. And they don't get that when they're little, you know, time means nothing. I'm just going to push this a little bit more because you're right, it's something to be mindful of. But Steph is saying here that she's in her mid-forties and ultimately she wants to be able to save so that she can retire early and go off into the sunset. How much should parents be selfish? How much should parents put themselves first? It's so hard. Let's go to the expert, not me. I'm also staring at Sam. I would say it's so important.
Starting point is 00:36:09 And again, I say this to all my clients, you must be selfish. You must be healthily selfish, gas mask on your own face. What do you need? And in terms of children, from my experience, if children know they're held in mind first, that we put them first in terms of we love them, we're always thinking about them, then I think it's fine. As long as children know they are loved and they are held in mind first, they're okay. I love that. I think that's a perfect bit of advice that, you know, I may not have the financial means at the moment to give you exactly what it is you want,
Starting point is 00:36:38 but you are held in mind first. You're loved and that's what counts. Susie and Sam, this has been such a pleasure. Susie, thank you so much for coming on to it. I feel like I've learnt so much from Sam. I know, right? And you and Andrew.
Starting point is 00:36:54 It was lovely to meet you. I can leave you here with Sam for another hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Susie, we'll leave all of your information in these show notes including your podcast
Starting point is 00:37:03 Out, which I believe I'm going to be guesting on soon. Yes, very soon. And of course, Sam from the London Practice, thank you once again. We literally can't get enough of you. It literally is my pleasure. I'll be back next week with the next episode of It Can't Just Be Me. And if you're looking for something to fill your time with before then, please go to itcantjustbeme.co.uk and tell me all about your dilemma in a voice note, or you can email them to itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. Whatever you're dealing with, whether it's love, sex, families, friend trouble, or anything in between, I want to hear from you.
Starting point is 00:37:41 Nothing is off limits, because you know what? It really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewood, with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show or to listen ad-free. Subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.

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