It Can't Just Be Me - 13: Dealing with divorce? With Sali Hughes

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

It's been more than ten years since Sali Hughes, The Guardian’s resident beauty columnist, went through a divorce. But she says it's still the most traumatic thing she's ever been through.In this episode Sali joins Anna and divorce coach, Maxine Clancy, in the studio to reflect on her experience and offer advice to a listener in the early stages of a separation. Together they share tips on how to approach the horrible practical tasks that come with a separation — like divvying up shared stuff — and offer some glimmers of hope about what’s waiting on the other side. You can stay up to date with Sali via her Instagram. And if you or someone you know is going through a separation, they might be in need of some heartbreak therapy from today’s brilliant expert: psychotherapist and divorce coach Maxine Clancy. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Pulama KaufmanTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Go Love Yourself. It's the show where we're all learning to love ourselves a little more. We'll also be chatting about topics close to our hearts. Bloody hell, that was so vulnerable of you to write. Honestly, I feel really strange. Oh my God, stop. And chatting to some of our favourite people. Anything in miniature size. I don't know why they try and make it cute. It pisses me off. He comes on full PBC mask and he's like, do you like me now? We've got new episodes out every Tuesday, so just search for Go Love Yourself wherever you get your podcasts. Hello there, you lovely things. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. This week, we're dealing with something that the Telegraph newspaper predicted would affect over 140,000 people in the UK alone this year.

Divorce. How do you approach a separation with a cool head when your heart is screaming out in pain? And how on earth do you divvy up and share all that stuff that you accumulate over the course of a marriage or a relationship? Oh God, I'm getting flashbacks already. So let's get cracking. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna.

Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain.

I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest this week is the fabulous beauty journalist,

author and broadcaster Sally Hughes. Now, chances are that if you're between the ages of 25 to 60, then you've been influenced by Sally's advice at some point or other, whether that's via her beauty column for The Guardian newspaper, listening to one of her many radio features, or perhaps reading one of her three books. Sally's life is rich, varied and fascinating. And to be honest, I could talk to her all day. But today we're specifically chatting about divorce,

something that Sally still describes as one of the most traumatic things she's ever experienced. She's well and truly out of the other side now and remarried. So I'm confident that her personal reflections on that difficult period in her life are going to be exactly what our listener needs to hear today. And don't worry, I'm also going to squeeze a little bit of beauty advice out of her too. Here she is, everyone. It's Sally Hughes. Sally Hughes, you guru of gorgeousness. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. How are you? I'm good, thanks. Thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. Now, many of our listeners will know you through your Guardian Beauty column, but there is, of course, so much more to you.

And today we're going to be talking about the very sticky issue of divorce, which is sadly something that you have lived experience of. But before we open up that can of worms, every week I ask my guests to bring in their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So what you got for us, Sal? It Can't Just Be Me, who absolutely loathes people filming live events and concerts where there are large audiences behind them. You are never going to watch back this 20 minute badly filmed, shaky, badly lit clip that is drawing my eye to your iPad, not to the thing that I've bought a ticket to watch. Can I just have a look at the parameters of this? Because I totally agree with you. But does this also include people taking photos? So a few years ago at Glastonbury, Billie Eilish did

a thing which I thought was really good. She came on and she said for the first two songs, fill your boots, take your pictures, do your filming, then please, please, please put it away. Yeah, please, please put it away. And I thought that was completely reasonable. I went to see Madonna on her last tour. And in fact, every tour, they take away your phone and put it into a pouch that disables the phone, which I really do agree with. But I thought Billie Eilish was a bit kinder and said, you've got two songs to fill your boots and then for the love of God, stop taking pictures. And I think that any reasonable person should follow that. This really gets to you, doesn't it?

Drives me up the wall. I'm 100% with you, Sally. I think that it is rude, it's disrespectful, it's unacceptable. It's selfish. It's selfish. You and I have got a lot to talk about with this. I'm utterly with you, but I feel as though we need to turn our attention to the task at hand now as I mentioned at the beginning this week's dilemma is all about divorce and we've heard from a listener who's going through that exhausting process as we speak now I know this is something you've experienced yourself just over a decade ago so I'm looking forward to hearing

your thoughts on this one because I know how painful it is. I've never been married, but I've had two separations from long-term relationships and it's just the worst. But I also have great pleasure in welcoming Maxine Clancy to the show. Maxine is an integrative relationship and divorce coach. So she really is the perfect person to help us out with this dilemma. Thank you so much for joining us, Maxine. Thank you for having me, Anna. It's lovely to be here. Do you also feel absolutely furious if somebody is trying to film a concert? Oh, yes. I'm definitely in there with you.

Yesterday I did a talk and I asked everybody to put their phone into a box, which was fascinating. Madonna. Yeah, and I just wanted them to be present. So that's what it allowed them to be. That's the word, isn't it? Is that otherwise you're not present. You're not actually living that particular moment and that pleasure.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, ladies, this dilemma is from Lizzie. She's in her 30s and she's going through a separation. My dilemma is that I've recently separated from my husband back in December 2022. Since then we haven't really been speaking that much and communication has been quite volatile and quite difficult. We've agreed a date coming up for me to go back to the house and to go through some of our joint belongings and some emotional stuff as well like our wedding presents and just thinking about that day feels really difficult and I'm feeling really anxious about going into that space again and whether it will kind of go smoothly or just how that will feel.

But it's something that I think we kind of do need to do at some point. So I suppose my question is, how can I best prepare for this kind of difficult emotional day? And how can I make sure it kind of goes as well as it can do. Okay I mean you can just hear can't you actually in Lizzie's voice that she feels very very flat there. I said earlier even though I've never been married I've been in two long-term relationships and this is absolutely something that I can relate to. So whether you're married or not, the sorting out your shared stuff day, moving your things out is just awful. Sally, I want to ask you first, what are your initial thoughts? I think I would always try to make as

many decisions as possible in advance. I think making decisions in an emotionally charged environment is not always best for anybody, really. As much as you can get out of the way before you enter that situation, the better. Personally, I'd be in favour of taking a friend and making sure he's not in, but it sounds as though she wants to talk to him. But I would think carefully about what she she wants to talk to him. But I would think carefully about what she actually wants to talk to him about. The split has happened. This is a practical day. It's a logistic day. And if you're just dealing with logistics and practical arrangements and considerations, I don't really see why you need to come face to face. I'd personally be in favour of entering the property at an agreed

time with some moral support, doing what I needed to do and difficult conversations can happen either in advance of that or afterwards. Can I just ask you, Sally, am I right in saying that you went through a divorce in 2012? Is that right? Thereabouts, yeah. How on earth did you navigate that whole process? And did you move out of the marital home? What happened? No, I stayed in the marital home. Didn't know if I was going to be able to. I have two children, but I did stay in the marital home. But it was hell. It was just hell. It was the worst experience of my life. It's worse than bereavement because it is a form of bereavement, but with practical complications that don't exist very often in actual death.

People say, it'll be all right, it'll be all right. And it will be all right. But in the moment, it is dreadful, which doesn't mean to say it won't get better. But for now, it is the hardest, most horrible, most heart-wrenching thing to go through. I'm really interested to hear you say there, Sally, that it's the worst thing you've ever been through and that includes bereavement. So why? Why is it just so awful? Well, first of all, you are bereaved. You're grieving for the life you thought you were going to have. You are terrified about the practical consequences, be they your living arrangements, your finances, your career. There are just a million variables within this emotionally very

charged and painful situation. It's everything a bereavement is, but it has really long-standing practical consequences that you're trying to navigate and second guess. It's also incredibly expensive for lots of people. Financially, it can be ruinous. And so all of these plates are spinning at the same time. And in the middle of all that, you've lost the person you love, either through their decision or yours. But in any case, what you once believed about yourself and your future has gone. And then, of course, throw into that as well, Maxine, the anger, the blame, the recrimination, you know, whatever's gone on between these two people. Is that what you're hearing from your clients as well? Absolutely. That's what I hear every single day. And I think the thing is,

we don't necessarily learn how to be with big, difficult emotions. And I've had so many men and women say it would be easier if they were dead. Not that they would want to kill them. But if someone was actually bereaved of someone, they wouldn't have to deal with that person. And people actually would treat them a bit differently because, okay, we don't really have the stigma of divorce today, but there's still that feeling of failure. So I think very much just really be with ourselves so that we can process our emotions

is one of the most important things that we can do when we're going through a divorce process. Which is almost impossible when you are going through that process, and particularly if it is not a pleasant separation. Because how do you comfort yourself and deal with those big emotions when you've got somebody, it feels like, attacking you all the time? It's a very difficult thing to do, isn't it? It is really difficult. And what's really interesting when we're going through like any major crisis, but particularly divorce, we are in massive uncertainty, which creates a lack of safety in our body. And we have this cranial nerve called the vagus nerve, which is like a super highway. And what that nerve does is it's constantly sending messages from the body to the brain. And when we're in crisis, uncertainty,

what happens is that becomes highly dysregulated, okay? And most people, what they'll do is they'll talk over and over and over about it, which is constantly activating the vagus nerve. And you'd be better off to like dance it out, do yoga, do specific breathing techniques. There's lots of things you can do to soothe yourself. And once you learn that, you'll be in a much better emotional state to be able to deal with the practicalities.

You know, this is interesting for me to hear because I've got a close friend who's going through a horrible divorce at the moment, and she is having real difficulty with her tummy. Do you think that's connected? Yes. When we're stressed, highly stressed, our stomach actually produces more gastric acid. So, you know, that sick to the stomach feeling that you think, why do I feel like that? I mean, I couldn't eat for a month when my second divorce went through. Wow. I'm going to step back here and say you're two divorces in.

Yes. Respect you, Maxine. So you really do know what you're talking about.. Wow. I'm going to step back here and say you're two divorces in. Yes. Respect you, Maxine. So you really do know what you're talking about. I do. I do want to talk to you about what makes a happy relationship as well. Yeah, sure. And where it does go wrong. But in the meantime, just getting back to Lizzie,

she's talking about going through joint belongings. And it's interesting how sentimental stuff, just stuff can be when you're going through a separation. Why is it so hard to let go of things? And why does it cause such a power struggle? Well, we tend to project onto other people and things, the disowned feelings that we don't want to take responsibility for. So I remember my first divorce, my ex-husband insisted on having a gun cabinet that my father had made. My father was a cabinet maker. And I'm like, why do you want that? My father made that, it's mine, you know. That seems willful though, doesn't it? That seems deliberate,

that seems spiteful. It was because he was so angry with me because I wanted the divorce. I was the one that said, I'm leaving. And he didn't know what to do with his anger other than direct it with me. So it becomes that power struggle because ultimately we don't want that person to be happy because we're not feeling happy.

And so we just put it onto the object. I mean, I'm with you with Sally saying that just feels, it's so spiteful. I mean, your dad's gun cabinet that he made. I got it, by the way. But I think a big part of that is saying, you made a decision to end this marriage. You must suffer consequences for that yeah how can I hurt you yeah absolutely I mean how do you advise clients to manage that sort of anger and recrimination yeah so that anger that's being projected out is really a reflection of the anger inside someone that they are uncomfortable with. So the way I would

work with that person is to give them permission to have all the judgments and then turn them around and look at, okay, well, how have you been with that judgment in yourself? And the idea is that when we sort of take responsibility for our own judgments or we take responsibility for our anger, then we actually are able to be with it and step back from whatever it is that we're making it mean and then have a different dynamic with what's actually going on. Really sort of own your own part in it and then you've got more freedom. How often do you find ex-partners?

And, you know, I think we can all include ourselves in this because we're all ex-partners, but how often do you find an ex-partners? And, you know, I think we can all include ourselves in this because we're all ex-partners. But how often do you find an ex-partner that really owns their own part in something? Oh, I do. Do you? Oh, yeah. Oh, completely. Well, tell me about that. Was that after a lot of coaching or therapy or how have you got to that point? I just think that when you come out of a relationship and that relationship has ended, all you can do ever is clean up your side of the street. And if you don't do that, then you've gone through all of the pain and all of the terrible stuff for no material gain at the end of it. And so I think if you don't do

a stock take and think, how will I be happier next time? How will I see this off at the pass next time? How will I behave better, feel better? If you don't go through that audit on yourself, then it's all been for literally nothing. You owe it to yourself. You owe it to your future relationships. You owe it to your partner who actually mattered. You know, he mattered. The marriage mattered and you wouldn't be devastated if the relationship didn't matter. And if you act as though they're nothing because you're so angry, then you're dishonouring what was an important thing. I mean, that's really beautifully put. And you're absolutely right to say, look after your own side of the street. You've always done something. You've always done something wrong.

I mean, I've had a lot of therapy and I struggled with my therapist for quite a while, going, well, no, I can't see what I've done in this particular situation. And she kept hammering it into me about, this is a dynamic. It is a dynamic. And it's only now, you know,

that I can look back on my relationship and go, okay, of course, of course, it is a dynamic. And it's only now, you know, that I can look back on my relationship and go, okay, of course, of course, it is a dynamic, isn't it? You've got to own your part in whatever's happened. Put that mirror up. Look yourself in the eye and go, what was my bit? And I don't want to do that again. But I still think that lots of people don't do that. Here's what I like to say to clients. I

say, if they were wrong 95%, what was your 5%? And that opens the door. You're right. It's never just 100% the other person's fault. So look, let's go back to Lizzie. She and her partner separated fairly recently. It was just over six months ago. So obviously this is still very raw for her and you can hear it in her voice, I think. She mentions that the communication between the two of them has been volatile and difficult. Sally, what were the first 12 months like for you after you separated from your ex? They were so terrible. They were so terrible. You mentioned the physical side effects earlier. I was so thin. I look back on pictures and I'm horrified. I wasn't looking after myself. I was just crying every day. You know, it was a bad situation. It was a really

bad year. It gradually got better. Now I'm extremely happy. I'm remarried. I'm remarried to somebody that I really like being married to. Everything's great. But it's one of those things that you don't realise till you're better that you were really, really bad. And I was really, really bad. That's so tough, isn't it? It's so tough because I can certainly look back on the last couple of years of my life and certainly splitting up with my most recent partner, you know, Sue and I are very good friends, it was incredibly painful when we split. And I can hand on heart look back on the year that we were separated

and didn't speak that much to each other. It was, I think, probably the most painful year of my life. But that's interesting what you've just said because I think this is something that very often comes up when people are in the midst of a split and they're having terrible communication with their ex. I would say that's normal. I think when the wheels fall off is when people are frustrated that they're not friends. They're trying to be friends. It's like, it's too early for you to be friends. You have to be friends when this is over. You can't build a friendship and end a relationship at the same time.

I think that's the mistake that I was making. I was so frightened and so scared of losing my best friend that you rush, don't you, to sort of try and make it all okay. But we really love each other and we really respect each other. Why can't we just be best friends? Because you're simultaneously ending a romance. You just can't do the two things simultaneously. One has to end, one has to grieve. And then if you're going to end up being friends, you can start on that process. Or just be fine with each other, but not friends, which is where I am with my ex-husband. We're fine, but we're not friends. But it's when people try to preserve something and try and build

something from nothing while going through this terrible trauma. I think the wheels fall off and people get really frustrated and angry with one another and with themselves that they can't make it work. And sad. So Maxine, what do you recommend to your clients when it comes to navigating communication while you're still hurting? What do you say? If the situation is volatile, it's about boundaries. If they start being angry and shouting,

then okay, this isn't being productive anymore. I'm going to put the phone down. Let's have a conversation later. It is about really strong, healthy boundaries. Because if we continue to just let someone treat us like that, then we're kind of almost like giving them permission to treat us like that. And also the other thing is that the energy we go into something with is going to affect the outcome. So this lady, Lizzie, the way she's described it, it's sensitive and it's emotional. Well, if she goes in feeling like that, then it's going to end up being highly sensitive and

emotional. I think that's fantastic advice because as we've said, she sounds very anxious. She sounds very flat. So she's expecting to go into a bit of a war zone or something that's going to be traumatic. And as you say, it doesn't have to be that way, actually. So Sally, I know that you had two children when you separated from your ex-husband. We actually reached out to Lizzie after she sent her dilemma in and she confirmed that she and her ex don't have children together. Do you think, and I hesitate to say this as a childless woman, but do you think that makes it easier if there are no children involved? It makes it much easier in a million ways, but it's also, it's just really different.

There are practical considerations that make divorce incredibly complicated when there are children at the heart of it that thankfully Lizzie won't have to navigate. And thumbs up to that. She needs as easy a ride as she can get because it's already difficult. However, I think lots of people who are getting divorced with children, as incredibly complicated and hard as that is, they still have a sense of a family. Somebody loves them unconditionally. They still have the company of their children. And that can ease some of the blow, that can

cushion some of the blow. So I think there are pros and cons to both. The reality is, if you have children, it is scarier, in my opinion, because you have three futures riding on your actions, rather than one. And in my case, because I have two children, two people who didn't ask to be born, didn't ask to be in the middle of a divorce, didn't ask for any of this stuff. And you are making a decision that will absolutely affect the rest of their lives. It's incredibly difficult. I was a single mother with these two kids. And every day I was petrified, you know, I was petrified we were going to lose our house. I was petrified that they wouldn't be able to form good relationships. I was petrified that

they were going to blame me and blame him or lose touch with their father. It just, I mean, the list is infinite. And I think one thing that in this chaos that I just decided I was always going to stick to, and so did my husband, we'd never actually discussed it with one another, but we both did this. We never, ever, ever slated each other to our children. And I do think this is absolutely vital because whatever you feel is fine. Feelings are always valid. If you feel a certain way, you're entitled to feel it. You don't need to justify it. But what we can control is how we direct those feelings and how we act on them. And quite frankly, if you are furious, if your husband, as you know,

been shagging loads of other women, or if your husband has gambled your life savings away or done something absolutely terrible, then that is what your girlfriends are for. It is not what your children are for. You get a bottle of wine and you go to town on him in the privacy of that girl gang. You don't take it out on your kids because your kids are 50% your partner. And if you slate him or her, you slate them. It's a totally unconscious, well-meaning, aggrieved form of child abuse. It really, really is. You have to take a step back and say, these are the feelings I'm having. They're really difficult. Where can I direct them? My oldest friends, they can take it.

Do you know, I'm the child, myself and my siblings are the child of separated parents. They've never divorced, but they're separated. And I take my hat off to them. I mean, certainly where my dad's concerned as well. He has never, ever, ever in the last 40 years slagged my mum off, ever. and it's made a huge difference to us yeah I think you don't realize until you're older how meaningful that is the omission of that kind of bitterness and blame and resentment is so meaningful and you just don't know till you're an adult and functioning okay you're right as an adult an adult, you can look back, can't you, and go, that shows enormous dignity and self-respect, actually, to not do that. And conversely, I'm close friends with a number of adults who say how much their mother or father endlessly slated their other parent and how incredibly difficult that was and how guilty

they felt about maintaining a relationship with the hated party and all of that. I think it can be hugely damaging. Absolutely. I wanted to share a worrying prediction that we've come across on the show. In December 2022, the Telegraph reported that there would be a spike in divorce rates in 2023, an estimated 140,000. They cited general unhappiness and economic instability as part of the reason. Divorce is expensive, as you've said, Sally. So why is it that there tends to be a spike during periods of economic instability? spike during periods of economic instability? It is so stressful, money. And a lack of money is the most stressful thing. Ill health and a lack of money, horrible, horrible situations. I also think there are certainly marriages that functioned very happily when they were separated

for 10 hours a day. And suddenly during COVID, they were together 24 hours a day and they didn't function anymore. So I'm not surprised by the spike. I would say though, if you are under financial pressure and you do decide to get divorced, it is the hardest financial situation you will ever be in. I was in so much debt. I think my divorce cost me about £25,000. And I mean, it feels like a million years ago now, but I remember the feeling of it so acutely. It was absolutely dreadful. And if you are going to embark on this, do everything you can to avoid going to court, because that is where you will have to spend life-changing amounts of money to get some resolution. So if you're feeling really, really stubborn about the kitchen table or about the gun cabinet or whatever

it is, I'm telling you now that that will cost you thousands in court to resolve. Okay, so Lizzie ends her voice note asking two very direct questions and I want to give her some concrete advice. We have given lots of tips over this chat actually, it's been fascinating to hear you both but her first very specific question is, how can I best prepare for this kind of difficult emotional day? So Sally, if you had one concrete piece of advice, how best can Lizzie prepare for that day? Write a list of all the property. Think what do you have to have? What would you like to have? And what, let's be real, could you live without? Go in there with that already filled in so you're not going in there with this sort of entrenched, angry position. You know what you can let fly

and you know what you can't. Maxine, anything to add? Yeah, that's exactly what I would do. Absolutely. Perfect note to self. Thank you. Take a girl, take a good girl. Yeah, and if you can, actually, with that list,

what I would do is an inventory that you share between the two of you and you both say what you want separately, then you give it back. So then you... You see where you're doubling up on an item. So if you're doubling up on the kitchen sink, how do you negotiate who's going to have it? Well, there'll be more than one thing you're doubling up on. So you end up in a situation where you say, I really love that table. You really love that cabinet. We both want them.

We're going to have one each. And unfortunately, that's being an adult. And when you're in a happy relationship, you learn that that runs on compromise. It's no different when a relationship is breaking down. Compromise is how functioning adults work. Second question from Lizzie is, how can I make sure the day goes as well as it can possibly go? Maxine, your thoughts? I really think in this situation that I would go with a friend and I would ask for that person not to be there. And that's a boundary you have absolutely every right to set. The second part of that would be, so do some, you know, emotional tools, breathing. There's

the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 breath, which is really, really good. You focus on five things you can see, four things you can touch, three things you can touch, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. And that will help bring you into the present moment and release any anxiety. The last thing you do is make sure you plan something that is really comforting and nurturing in the evening. Really do something that's nourishing for yourself. That's what I would recommend. Amazing. I want to end on a positive note. Sally, you are happily married again with two amazing children and a dream career, of course. Life is good. So what has our listener got to look forward to once she's out of the divorce fog? I guarantee that she will be happy again and it feels so unlikely but it is a fact and one thing I wish I could change about the way people feel when

they're breaking up is relationships ending do not mean that the relationship is a failure. It means the relationship has ended. Relationships don't have to exist until death to have been a success. My marriage ended, but we had two kids. We were really happy together. We had a great social life. We built a life together. It was a brilliant thing that ended. And we don't have to do anything in life forever to be able to say I didn't fail. That is absolutely so true, isn't it? And we all need to hang on to that because everything ends, whatever it is. It's true of everything. It's true of everything. This idea that something has to be forever for it to be deemed a success is an unwinnable game. You are alive now. That

has ended. What's next for you? And Maxine, for you, because you've had two marriages and you are engaged again, what makes a happy, healthy relationship slash marriage in your opinion? Well, I think the first thing is, you know, you have to love yourself. You may have your up and down days, but essentially you're coming from that space. And, you know, I always believe that relationships are where we do our biggest amount of growth. Yeah. So if you go into a marriage or a partnership or long-term relationship, be open to the lessons that you're going to learn there together. You know, it is a partnership. So you've got to like really be open to seeing that person through loving eyes and keep coming back to that space. So yeah, I believe like love is everywhere, basically. It is. I mean, I say to all of my

partners, we're a team. You know, we are a team and i want my teammates i want you to be on my team and vice versa because otherwise we're just operating as two individuals that just happen to be in each other's sphere and that that's no good for me it's all about teamwork i think and wanting the very best for that person so congratulations on your on your engagement, Sally, before you go, would you mind if we squeeze a bit of beauty advice out of you? I have two more quickfire dilemmas. Are you ready? Okay. The first one is all about how to approach the early signs of ageing.

It's from Gwynny, who's from London. Here we go. Hi, Anna. I was wondering if you could help me out with something. I'm in my late 20s, and over the past couple of months, I've started to realize that I'm looking older. I don't know when this happened, but I swear last year I looked 21, and now I look more like my mother every single day, which is fine, but I just don't feel like I look like me anymore and it's starting to get me down. I used to think that I would grow old gracefully, but every time I look in the mirror, all I can see is my grey hairs and my wrinkles. Should I just accept that I've entered a new phase of my life or should I take action and

battle the aging process and if so what should I do wow I love the fact she went I've noticed I look more and more like my mum every day which is fine it really isn't oh your first gray hair that first wrinkle and she's only in her 20s. Sally, you took the brave, bold and brilliant approach of dyeing your hair grey before it could slowly creep up on you. What's your response to Gwynny on this? I cannot help but suspect Gwynny is rather overstating her rapid ageing process, which isn't to diminish her claim, but it makes me think there's something more to it

than her appearance. Maybe there are external pressures that make her more critical of her looks. Is someone around her being critical of her looks? Is a man, our friends, our people at work being critical? She needs to get away from those people if so. There may be lifestyle reasons she might be burning the candle at both ends. She might think she looks old when she actually looks tired and a bit run down. That's really, really common, especially at that age when we tend to be very busy socially and professionally. There are lots of factors to consider in terms of whether she should do something about it. I think she should do what she wants, but I think first she needs to do an audit on who wants her to look different.

Is it really her or are there external voices messing with her head? If it's really her, she can do what the hell she likes. She can change how she does her makeup. She can go and get Botox. She can go and get some facials. Then there are preventative measures that everyone should be doing, which is wearing a sunscreen of at least SPF 30 every single day. There are all sorts of things she can do, but it sounds to me as though she first needs to decide where this is coming from, because that fear and awareness of ageing when you are at such a young age makes me think there's perhaps a bit more to it. Maxine? Well, I do remember the first time I had a grey hair and I was in my 20s. There are definitely things that we can do externally,

but how we feel about ourselves internally is going to make a huge difference. So do a little bit of both inner and outer work. Spoken like a true therapist. I love that. Now, this next one is a little bit of a curveball because it's not actually from a listener, but from my super producer, the lovely Alice Homewood. Alice is getting married next month,

congratulations, and is looking for some advice about wedding makeup. So here we go. Hi Anna and Sally, it's Alice here. So I'm getting married in a few weeks and I was told, you know, make sure you get your hair and makeup done by someone professional. And so I went somewhere and afterwards I just didn't feel like me. so I've made the decision that I'm just going to do my own makeup and hair with the help of my sister. I'm not amazing at makeup, I have done the same thing basically since I was 13 but I wanted to know from Sally, number one, am I making a huge mistake and should I quickly try and find someone to do my makeup on the day, number one, am I making a huge mistake? And should I quickly try and find someone to do my makeup on the day? And number two, if someone is going to try and do

their own makeup, what is her one big thing to remember? Thank you so much. Bye. I don't think she's making a terrible mistake. I think the single most important thing on your wedding day is to feel like yourself. And it is amazing how many brides turn up to their own weddings looking like a different person. So people who are deathly white the rest of the year turn up with a really deep bronze tan. People who always have straight hair suddenly have their hair up with ringlets everywhere. People look completely different to the person their new wife or husband has fallen in love with. So as you walk down the aisle, you should look like the best version of you, not like a different person.

I think that's quite scary to your bride or groom. In terms of what she should do, don't try anything new on the day. Make sure you've worn the products you're going to use several times ahead of the wedding day. I would say, and this may be a slightly unpopular view, but I really believe it, having done makeup for every single one of my friends when they got married, you will, in my opinion, need to wear a little bit more makeup than is your comfort zone. Now, the reason for that is there's a lot of kissing, there's a lot of hugging, there's some sweating, there's eating and drinking. Your makeup is likely to go a little bit on the move and those pictures are forever.

The only regrets I ever hear about bridal makeup are women going, oh, I wish I'd put my lips back on. I wish I'd put some powder on my nose afterwards. Get your sister to pull you to one side at least once during the day and say, babe, we're going to go to the ladies, we're going to take three minutes and we're going to put things back on. That will make such a difference to how you feel about your photos after the fact. Comprehensive advice. Maxine, I presume you've got nothing to add. I'm thinking I'm going to make notes for that when I get married. Fantastic advice. We're both going to be booking you in sally but for our weddings thank you sally it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show thank you so much for

joining me and for being so genuine and honest and of course maxine clancy thank you for joining us today too we'll be dropping your details in the show notes for any listeners who might be in need of some heartbreak therapy. I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, if you find yourself with a dilemma and think to yourself, I really need some advice, then drop me a voice note at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email your dilemma to itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. Whatever you're dealing with, whether it's sex, love, families, friend trouble, or anything in between, I want to hear from you. You know nothing is off limits,

because it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewood, with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free,

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