It Can't Just Be Me - 18: Questioning my sexuality? With Milena Sanchez

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

This week, Anna is responding to a dilemma from a woman in her late 40s who has questions around her sexuality. This listener was in a relationship with a man for 30 years, but after the breakdown of ...this marriage, she had a whirlwind romance with a woman. Now, she’s navigating teenage kids, questions around her sexuality, and to top it all off… the menopause. Yikes! To help Anna get to the bottom of this dilemma, she’s joined by the brilliant Milena Sanchez. Milena is one-third of The Receipts Podcast, and has a lot to share on the topic of this dilemma, having come to terms with her own sexuality after the birth of her daughter. With the assistance of Julian Pascal-Saadi, a psychotherapist with specialities in sexuality and gender, Anna and Milena offer advice to the listener drawing on their experiences navigating their own sexuality. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to itcantjustbeme@podimo.comThis podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Pulama KaufmanTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Have you ever felt a little bit lost? I think we're all trying to figure life out most of the time and you know what? It never really stops. It's a total myth that when you're an adult you suddenly have everything sorted or maybe that's just me and my messy life. But today we'll be tackling a dilemma from a woman in her late 40s who's struggling with life and her identity. a woman in her late 40s who's struggling with life and her identity. She's single again after a 30 year relationship with a guy who she went on to marry and while she previously identified as straight she went on to have a brief but brilliant romance with a woman leaving her a bit confused about who she wants to date and how to get back on the dating scene. On top of all this, she thinks she might be going through the menopause and she's raising two teenagers as well. It's a lot for her to figure out, so let's try and help her. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna.
Starting point is 00:01:01 Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children, and he doesn't. I have feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice.
Starting point is 00:01:23 It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is one of the queens of the advice podcast world. Milena Sanchez is one third of the Receipts podcast, which I totally recommend if you're looking for straight advice and craving gossipy chat with your girlfriends. Milena is passionate, unashamedly led by her emotions and all about healing and growth. Hallelujah. She's also bisexual, so knows both sides of the dating world, which is why I've brought her in to help us with our dilemma today. Here she is. It's Milena Sanchez. Mamacita, Milena. Hi. Thank you for having me. Welcome to our cosy studio. How are you? I feel
Starting point is 00:02:09 ready to get into it. I'm excited. Well, I'm excited as well because the minute you walked into the studio, we started talking straight away about boobs, that back in a bra, but you're used to being free. I used to free the nip. Now I'm just like, get the nip back into the bra and, you know, have them under my neck so I can make sure they just never droop. Now I think free the nip. Get the nip. I wish I could free my nips. If I freed my nips, I'd be on the floor. Honestly, it's a disaster. Now, as I said at the top of the show, we have a listener dilemma that I'm interested in getting your thoughts on today because
Starting point is 00:02:44 I think I'm right in saying that we've both lived quite a lot of it. Yes, we have. But before I share that, each week I ask my guests to share their own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So Milena, what have you got for me? Right, I know that I'm not alone in this this I know this for sure because I've definitely had conversations with people but my thing is I hate the sound of people clearing their throat you know in the morning and they're just in the bathroom and it's just like like no is there not a more graceful way that you can do it so are we talking throat or are we talking nasal passages everything the whole thing just you clearing yourself i hate it i hate the sound of it the phlegmy mess yes no i don't want to hear it
Starting point is 00:03:31 like it sounds like a bad time it sounds like a bad time do you know i actually might invite you around to my home because i have a neighbor he's a sm Right. And every morning and at night as well, what I hear is this. You see, and if that was my neighbour, I would be on the phone to 999 every night. Like, please help them. They're choking to death. Maybe that's what I need to do is just get sort of endless ambulance calls out to him. I am a bit worried about him. No, you're not because you've been sitting there like, oh, coughing again. He's all right. At least I know he's there actually no you're right because what I'm actually doing is lying there going oh that is just gross yeah but no I'm I'm with you it is absolutely uh revolting especially walking down the street that pisses me off or when you're on a bike and
Starting point is 00:04:21 you know when they do that one nostril thing. Oh my God, that is, that should be illegal. I totally agree with every single thing that you have just said there. But I feel like it's time to turn our attention to a slightly more complex dilemma, which is all about our changing sexual identity and how that can play out alongside everything else that we've got going on in our life. And to help us out with that, I've invited Julian Pascal Sardi to be here with us today, our guest psychologist specialising in LGBTQ plus mental health. And you're joining us remotely, Julian. Hello. Hi, it's really good to see you. And I wish I was sitting there with you today. But unfortunately, I can't be there physically.
Starting point is 00:05:05 there with you today, but unfortunately, I can't be there physically. Well, listen, I'm going to throw you both right into the deep end with this dilemma. It's from one of our listeners called Amber. Here we go. Hi, Anna. My name's Amber. I'm 40, very nearly nine years old. I have got a bit of a dilemma generally. I was with my husband since we were about 17 years old and we have two kids together and then unfortunately during lockdown etc our marriage broke up. I got together then out of the blue with a girl who I absolutely adored. We hit it off, we had a great relationship, we had a great sex life. We had great everything, but having two teenage kids and she didn't have any kids, it kind of put a wedge between us. And she and I have parted company and now I'm a bit lost. I feel like I'm going through the menopause a bit at the moment and I'd like to get back on the dating scene again. I really want to find someone that I can just share my life with. And I don't know whether I'm looking for a male or a female. I always thought that I was just looking for men and then she blew my mind and we had a great time together.
Starting point is 00:06:25 blew my mind. We had a great time together. So how do you deal with something like that when you don't even know which sex of a partner that you're looking for? And how do you even get back on the dating scene again? I've had a look at various dating apps, etc., but not really for me. I feel a bit lost, really. So yeah, any advice you could give, please? Thank you so much. So yeah, any advice you give, please. Thank you so much. Wow. Well, obviously, there is so much going on there for Amber. And I have got a lot to say about this one. Amber, if you're listening, and I hope you are, I really do feel for you because just that bit at the end as well, when you said, I just feel a bit lost, really, my heart goes out to you. But Milena, what is your gut reaction to what Amber had to say there? My gut reaction is like, oh my God, how did you come out to your kids? That was my first initial
Starting point is 00:07:11 reaction because that within itself is such a difficult thing to do. I don't know if she has, but if she has, that is a very, very huge step and obviously very commendable because it's very scary. I've been in that situation before and it's very difficult. Well, how old is your daughter? My daughter is eight and, you know, she's very, very young to be sitting down and talking to her about the ins and outs of sexuality. But the whole premise was when I actually came out to her was loving whoever it is that you wanted to love and not judging people on who they choose to be with and also her understanding that she is going to be surrounded by people who live different lives to her and you know it doesn't matter what family dynamic anybody has that they should never
Starting point is 00:07:57 be ostracized for it they should never be judged for it because I know in school when she mentions oh I've got two mummies you know some of the kids are like you can't have two mummies that's impossible so it kind of like backtracks in her mind like maybe this is wrong I don't know so there's a lot of questions there but that also aside I feel like there is a lot of pressure when it comes to dating and finding this one person that you need to spend the rest of your life with and figuring out am I gay, bi, straight, all of these things and I feel like once you release the pressure of what am I labeling myself with and actually just thinking I want to find a person whoever it is that I connect with I think that will alleviate a little bit of, you know, she sounds overwhelmed to me, you know? A hundred percent. There's so much to say in what you've just picked up on there, I think, because in terms of labels, sometimes they can be unhelpful for people. I
Starting point is 00:08:59 don't label myself. And I think in terms of Amber's dilemma, she's going, I don't know whether to go for a man. I don't know how to go for a woman. I don't know what I am. Well, as you say, you don't need to label yourself. Maybe just focus on find the person that you connect with, regardless of gender, I think. And I think it's amazing because the pool just gets wider when you're into both anyway. So, you know, it's one of those things where it's just like I have a very strange relationship with labels because I think sometimes it's great because if you feel lost in the world and then you find something and you feel like it describes you you can attach yourself and it's like finally I've got something there that makes me feel more seen and more you've got your tribe yeah exactly exactly but then also I do feel like it comes with this, oh my God, so I'm just that now.
Starting point is 00:09:46 You know, there's no other leeway for me to just go left or right. I've been straight my whole life. So that means I need to be straight. And this relationship with this woman, it was just, you know, like a phase or I was tired of men kind of thing. So I definitely am on the fence when it comes to labels and stuff. Yeah, the label thing and how people react to it can really bother me. So the other day, I had a little holiday in Devon and I was on my way back and I stopped in Exeter for a bite to eat.
Starting point is 00:10:15 And I was just sitting outside having a pizza and my other half, who's a guy, had gone in to go and order some drinks. And there was this table of people next to me. And this guy turns to me. I said, Oh, my God, are you that girl from telly? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, hi, I am. And he said, Oh, can I come and join you for a bit? So I said, Okay. So he came over and he went, You know what, I've always had a real crush on you. But I thought you were a lesbian. Oh, exactly. So I was like, I was like oh uh well yeah no I was in a
Starting point is 00:10:46 relationship with a woman for a long time but I said my my boyfriend is inside just getting so he went what your boyfriend what what you're straight now and it's like oh god here we go yeah it's just like something I just don't want to sit there explaining to a complete stranger also how dare he to insert himself into your life like that I I would have been like, no, sorry, I'm waiting for my partner. So annoying. So annoying. But Julian, as a psychologist, what are you hearing in Amber's dilemma? Because there's a lot going on for her. My first reaction when I heard it was, wow. I mean, I'm not surprised that she's feeling lost because she's come out of this long marriage. She's got two kids. She will have formed, I imagine, ideas about how her future might look. And then suddenly,
Starting point is 00:11:33 it doesn't work out like that. And then there's a need to renegotiate what is my sexual identity? How do I want to identify myself? And I think I would absolutely say the same thing, that perhaps what could help to make it feel less of a loss is to just get rid of the need to label. And there's a lot of there's a lot out there now about sexual fluidity that people can identify as straight, but also be sexually fluid in different contexts. So there was historically, and I think it's still true, but there was an idea that women were more sexually fluid than men. But there is more and more research now that suggests that even men who consider themselves straight or women who consider themselves straight, they can also be quite sexually fluid. And the element of fluidity comes in when it's almost as though it's unexpected relative to the norm that we have in our minds. I was reading something the other day about straight men who will engage in sort of sexual
Starting point is 00:12:30 acts with each other, but then label it, you know, this is something that the bros do, or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, does that open up a conversation about, is this actually about fluidity? And do we need to redefine and come to a new understanding about what sexuality actually is? And I think as well, it's so scary when people kind of discover that fluidity, because then in their mind, they have to come out and now they have to have all of these conversations. It's very, very daunting. I do an event, an all women's event called Plus You Event. And originally it was just going to be a queer event. And I thought you know what no let me open it up to all women because like Julian I know that there are a lot of the straight women who have that fluidity as well so I want to open this pool
Starting point is 00:13:14 up for everybody to just feel safe and comfortable have no judgment if you want to dance on a woman dance on a woman that does not mean you're bisexual or lesbian or anything like that. Let's just all come together and have fun and not put so much pressure on ourselves. I love that. I love that. I love the idea of inclusivity. It's like, look, everybody is welcome just to explore their own individuality. And you don't have to slap a big label on it either.
Starting point is 00:13:41 I'm totally down with that completely. But Julian, just thinking about Amber's dilemma, what I'm hearing are so many conflicting emotions. There's the grief after a very long-term marriage, the excitement of sex with a woman and the questions that that raises and that bond with a woman, loss again, struggles with children, menopause, and then just feeling lost. I think as a middle-aged woman, I get that. I'm wondering whether Amber needs to sit with her grief, actually, and loss for a while. But in terms of you as a psychologist and what you see with your clients, the loss of a long-term relationship,
Starting point is 00:14:26 perhaps questioning life choices and identity, and particularly in middle age, is this something you come across? All the time, actually. I would say that middle age is such an unspoken about thing, but is actually so common that this transition point, and I think it's really interesting that in this case, it's coincided with the end of a marriage and this discovery of a new part of the self. I mean, it's really a huge transition point. So I would absolutely agree that there's a need to sit with the grief because it's in sitting with the grief that we can open ourselves up to something new. And that feels really important in this case. Actually, that's a really good point because sometimes I think in trying to rush through the
Starting point is 00:15:16 pain, you're just blocking yourself. And I can identify with this both in terms of when I split up with my boyfriend, Charles, when I'd met Sue, I kind of rushed through that. And then certainly with the end of my relationship with Sue, I was just utterly heartbroken. But I think I think I tried to rush back into being normal. And you can't rush the pain, can you? What do you think, Milena? At the end of the day, those feelings are going to resurface. Whether that's today, next year,
Starting point is 00:15:51 it doesn't matter. The amount you suppress it, it will show in how you treat another person in a relationship or it will hit you one o'clock in the morning when you're laying down in bed, like figuring what the hell am I doing here but I do feel like there can be that self-discovery as well with a person their present for me I don't
Starting point is 00:16:13 believe you have to be on your own and go through all of these things and then come back with somebody and then you have to be ready you know in some scenarios yes but I feel like also people should be talking about you can grow with somebody else and you can discover a whole heap about yourself with somebody else as well I love that I really do love that because actually I think you're right that sometimes you don't just have to be single if you enjoy being in a relationship you enjoy being with somebody and I don't have the answer sometimes like and I don't want to be sitting there reading books I want to have a conversation with somebody. Let me learn something from you.
Starting point is 00:16:46 You ask me all of these questions so I can see things from a different perspective. I guess that's a therapist as well. But also therapy isn't always obtainable for everybody. Well, we'll come on to that in a second, actually. But Melinda, just talk to me a little bit about your own life story, because you've been in relationships with men and you're a mum as we know but now your partner is a woman and I think you've just moved in together is that right yes congratulations when did you realize that your sexuality was fluid I was really really really young I feel like I was about like nine years old nine years old when I feel like I was about like nine years old. Nine years old when I started like maybe kissing my friends. And I just be like, let's practice for the boys.
Starting point is 00:17:30 And they would be so excited to like practice for the boys. And in my head, I was like, I'm not practicing for the boys. I actually quite like this. I like this with you. Also, I went to like an all-girls school and I was just like, oh my God, amazing women. I don't have to deal with men. But it was very very difficult actually because there was a couple of situations in school where I had had
Starting point is 00:17:49 interactions with certain friends and then they would deny it and then that would make me feel like oh the shame oh oh my god the shame that's attached to this am I not enough for them and obviously I had so many like I had daddy issues and issues when it came to men from a very very young age I've only discovered in my adult life obviously there was a lot of feeling like I wasn't enough and then I went ahead and I told everyone in school that me and this girl done this thing obviously now looking back I was like why the hell did you do that but I was young and I wanted to feel claimed by her kind of thing so from there I was a bit like oh gosh maybe maybe let me just keep this stuff low-key and like not tell anyone really about it because you were
Starting point is 00:18:31 getting the reaction to hang on a minute being with a woman being with a girl being gay it's not a good thing and then like thinking about like coming out to other friends and family and stuff like that I just wasn't ready and then I met my daughter's dad when I was 16 and then we were obviously together just under 10 years and had catalaya and then I've always known I've been attracted to women I've had loads of experience with women and I've just always thought that I feel safer with a woman I feel yeah I feel like me and women, that just feels like my equal. But is that because obviously your gender, your sex is that you are female. So is it to do with that you just understand the gender? Do you know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:19:16 I love boobs. I'm really attracted to boobs. No, but I hear exactly where you're coming from. But no, there's this like kind of like emotional connection that I feel like with a woman. It's just completely different to any kind of relationship that I've been with with a man. And I've really sat down and been in therapy and discovered the reasons why I have been with men and stuff like that. So, you know, that's really, really helpful for me to look back and understand now. you know, that's really, really helpful for me to look back and understand now. But that's not me saying that, God forbid, if anything happens between me and my partner,
Starting point is 00:19:50 that I wouldn't ever go on a date with a man and stuff. I mean, I don't see it happening, but I'm not somebody that's like, I would never. Well, let's talk a little bit more about that, because Amber's feeling lost and confused after two very significant relationships, one with a man, one with a woman. And I'm with you, Milena, that there is a difference when it comes to dating men and women. So how can Amber process those conflicting emotions? And how would you explain to her, I suppose, that there is that difference? And what do you think that difference is for you? First of all, I would let her know. if you're listening please don't compare relationships between men and women because it's it's completely different just the emotions and
Starting point is 00:20:35 the intensity of relationships they're just the opposite you've heard of the term you haul right oh the you haul lesbian yeah yeah yeah. Like you get together first day and you already come with a bag and that's it, like I am done. So in that aspect, I feel like women that love women, we just move a hundred miles per hour. I guess because maybe women are less afraid
Starting point is 00:20:57 when all of these emotions are presented to them so early on. Whereas with men, it's like, oh my God, she's doing too much. Like she's too needy. She's too emotional. It's all of this and that. But with women, it's like, oh my God, she's doing too much. Like she's too needy. She's too emotional. It's all of this and that. But with women, we know what we want. I feel this about you. Fuck it. So you think that that emotional intensity is reflected back with women because we are emotional beings. Yeah. And with open arms as well, you know, they're just like,
Starting point is 00:21:21 yeah, I'm ready for it as well. Totally. I mean, Julian, let me come to you about that. Because again, you know, you are a psychologist that specialises in LGBTQI plus mental health issues. Do you think there's a difference when it comes to having a relationship with a man versus having a relationship with a woman and everything in between? Yeah, absolutely. And I think what that also made me think about was, I would encourage Amber in this context to ask herself what it was about the relationship with the man, the ex-husband or the husband, I guess I'd also want to refrain from generalizing that all men are like X and all women are like Y, because of course, they aren't. So I'd be curious about what it is about both genders that is either something that draws her to it or sort of pushes her away, in a way. No, definitely. I mean, or sort of pushes her away in a way. No, definitely. I mean, I sort of wish she was in the studio, actually, because I would love to
Starting point is 00:22:30 know that. But I mean, you're absolutely right, of course, Julian, to say that, you know, we cannot generalise in this way. However, in my experience, you know, having been with men, having been with women, I am with you, Milena, that there is an intensity in an all-female relationship. Yeah. That's quite extraordinary and overwhelming. It is very emotional. It is intense. It is, you know, full on. It's not for the faint-hearted. It's not for the faint-hearted. It's really not. Not for the faint hearted.
Starting point is 00:23:01 It's not for the faint hearted. It's really not. It can be really overwhelming. Whereas I think with the guys that I've been with, of course, they're emotional. Of course, I've fallen in love with them. I find, well, maybe it's just the guys I've been with much simpler. Yeah, no, 100%. I guess some men have a very kind of like linear way of living and viewing things. But you know what I was going to say, actually?
Starting point is 00:23:24 I kind of feel like maybe that kind of love for women has always been there. But we have to remember, Amber got with this guy when she was 17. Yeah, a child. That's a very, very, very young age, you know? And most of us aren't brave enough to even act on what it is that we're feeling in that precise moment
Starting point is 00:23:43 because society isn't deemed as quote-unquote normal so maybe that's just like she's her younger self is just rediscovering what so you think that she's actually doing some of her growing up maybe it's her inner teen probably again I think Julian you touched on this earlier on about the fact that middle-aged people and she is nearly 49 that I and I can identify with this as a middle-aged people, and she is nearly 49, and I can identify with this as a middle-aged person, that you do have that struggle around, hang on a minute, I'm going into the second half of my life. What does this mean? Who am I? Where am I going? And actually, it's kind of fucking downhill from here. So honestly, I mean, you guys are young, but I am telling you that when you hit 50, you suddenly have this nightmare moment of going, oh my God, if I'm
Starting point is 00:24:34 lucky, I've got another 30 years left, maybe. That's if I'm healthy and I'm lucky. So it really is a big moment, I think, of questioning. I mean, Julian, I know you touched on this earlier on, but again, does that resonate? Absolutely. And I also think the menopause aspect will be playing into this, almost like an internalized ageism that the older I get, you know, it's a slippery slope towards death kind of thing, or, you know, that's the most the stereotype or the kind of, not that it's true, of course it isn't, but we feed into this idea. And also I wonder about the meaning of menopause and how society tends to view it as someone's sense of femininity or sexuality sort of goes out the
Starting point is 00:25:16 window or something like, which is of course not true. And yet these are the stereotypes that are maintained. So it makes me think of internalized ageism. It makes me think of internalized misogyny as well around the sexual woman who loses her sexuality and all of these things. That is fascinating. I mean, obviously, as a menopausal woman, I have an awful lot to say about this. You are so going to get there, Milena. Give it another 30 years. I know.
Starting point is 00:25:43 I feel so bad because I'm always like getting on to my mum about things and she's like, do you wait until you're my age? And I'm like, oh my God, you know what? Let me be nicer. Let me be more patient, mum. I'm sorry. No, I'm loving what you're saying, Julian, about, look, there is internalised ageism here.
Starting point is 00:25:58 There is internalised misogyny because actually the menopause is a rite of passage that actually brings about freedom and it brings about a renewed sexuality. We know what we're all about actually as women in our 40s and 50s and we care less about what other people think. And I think there's a huge amount of freedom there. In fact, funnily enough, I was watching And Just Like That last night,
Starting point is 00:26:24 which is the sort of ongoing seasons of Sex and the City. And all the women are now in their 50s. And I used to watch them when they were in their 30s. But it's all about being in your mid 50s and all of the issues that we're hitting and menopause. But what is glorious about And Just Like That is you're seeing these women who look amazing in their 50s, who are still sexual beings, who are still rediscovering themselves. So I think, Amber, if you're listening, there's a lot to be said for this rite of passage that you're going through at the moment. And the other side can be and is glorious. You finish the drinks, you and your date have said your goodbyes, and you're immediately on the phone to your best friend. I like messaged all my friendship groups,
Starting point is 00:27:17 you're never going to believe what just happened to me. From Podomo and 2020, this is First Date, the podcast. I'm Cece Coleman. And I'm Frankie Bridge. We'll be bringing you the most amazing, bizarre, and heartwarming dating stories. He's like, this girl is crazy. It's First Dates, the podcast. Get it wherever you're listening to this or visit listentofirstdates.com. So let's just talk a bit about Amber was with her husband, as you've picked up on, Milena, for around 30 years. Oh my gosh. I know, right?
Starting point is 00:27:44 I mean, that is just... That is a long time it's huge it's a lifetime plus she had another meaningful breakup with a woman as we know that she dated afterwards all right big question this how do we know when we're ready to really love again oh Julian great question do you know what I mean, Julian, by that? Because I guess it touches on what I was saying earlier on about we run away from the pain of loss. And sometimes we just run straight into somebody else's arms to try and get away from the pain. So how do we know when we're really ready? I think this is such an important and interesting question. And my honest answer is, I don't think we ever do know when we're ready. I wish I had this kind of formula that gave us a sense of certainty,
Starting point is 00:28:33 but I wonder whether the difficulty is the uncertainty. And, you know, something that was mentioned earlier, but there's this idea in society that we can't be in a relationship until we've done our own sort of internal work. And I understand where that comes from, but I wonder whether it's too black and white and that actually a lot of work is done in the context of a relationship. But I do think this is about the grief as well. How do we make room for someone else if our hearts are already filled by something that's no longer there so it's how do we open up the space that is so beautifully put and it is so important that you've said that because yes i think that sometimes we do rush into something else and as you say your heart is still filled with somebody else with the grief of loss and there's
Starting point is 00:29:28 no room there's as you say there's no room to love somebody else at that moment and I think I suppose my concern is is that if we're too quick we're doing a disservice to the person that you're having that relationship with especially if they're trying to love you back and you're just not in the right headspace to love them do you know what I mean by that I think in Amber's situation I would really sit down and think oh my god I've lost these two amazing people for whatever reason it is should I now be looking to find different avenues and ways to be getting into something with somebody else because I personally don't feel like she's sat down with herself and just been like right let me feel
Starting point is 00:30:11 everything let me feel these losses let me feel the pain let me feel that hurt and let me just try and not live my life being affected by all of this you know I think it's fear fear of feeling all of that oh yeah because that moment you sit down and you feel that kind of overwhelmingness of anxiety of that grief and it's like where the fuck am I going now nobody wants that no nobody wants to go through that but it's vital and it's so essential for our personal growth to do that. And listen, I'm not somebody that's above anyone. That's just like, you know, anytime I go through pain or anything like that, I'm like, yes, growth, go me. I'm blossoming. Fantastic. No, I don't. I try to run away from it as well. But it does get to a point where it's just like, Milena,
Starting point is 00:31:01 baby girl, sit down. Let's figure this out. Now, I want to take what you've just said there, Milena, and move that into some clear, concrete advice for Amber, because she has said that she's keen to get back on the dating scene. So look, to both of you, what should she do? If she's up for dating, what should she do? She's 49 for dating what should she do she's 49 yeah are we talking about dating apps here or are we talking about you know joining clubs speaking to friends getting out there what are we saying do it all I say do it all why constrict yourself to just one go on the dating apps add your picture to all of them if that's what you want to do go out meet new people tell your friends hey have you guys got anyone for me? Put yourself out there, be open-minded.
Starting point is 00:31:47 Don't worry about, you know, if they're a man or a woman. Just go with the flow of life. So the question here, if you're going on a dating app and you're interested in men and women, do you put that on there? I mean, you know, how would people react to that? I would, but like I said, it depends if that person's out or not. Do you know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:32:07 So it depends if they want that information out there. I think maybe this is why it's good for you to take charge in who it is that you find attractive. So if you see somebody's profile and you fancy them, you message them. So then that way it's a little bit easier than you putting it out there if you don't want it to be out there. But if you do, yeah, 100%. Love that. So Julian, what concrete advice do you have for Amber? How should she be navigating
Starting point is 00:32:37 everything that she's going through right now? I mean, we're talking about understanding sexual identity, being a mum and going through the menopause. So as a psychologist, if she were your client, what would you be saying right now? Getting back into the dating pool can happen at the same time as sitting with the feelings. Because if this was my client, I would be a little bit concerned about how quickly things are going. There's this real sort of push into, and I must understand my future and what this means about me. And although that's also important, it's not forgetting to mourn what's happened. So definitely get out onto the dating sites and see where you gravitate towards without sort of judging yourself at the same time and trying to label yourself too quickly because things are
Starting point is 00:33:25 potentially quite fluid and that's okay. Again, I love that, that you can hold both the concepts at the same time, which is I'm grieving the loss of two big relationships. However, I'm moving forward and I still want to try and get back out there. The two can coexist, can't they? 100% absolutely. It's just about really tuning inwards. You know, what am I doing here? Am I avoiding? Or am I in touch with my pain and moving outwards at the same time? So it will demand a level of internal kind of awareness, I guess, to know whether she's being a bit more defensive, or whether it's a genuine kind of holding both feelings guess, to know whether she's being a bit more defensive or whether it's a genuine kind of holding both feelings together at the same time.
Starting point is 00:34:10 Milena, Julian, thank you so much to the both of you. And Amber, if you're listening, genuinely, please do keep in touch and let us know, A, about your dating adventures, but also just, you know, how you are navigating the menopause and this midlife point that you find yourself in. I'd be really interested to know. So just go to itcantjustbeme.co.uk and click contact us. I will be on the other end of a screen waiting for news. Now, you two, I know that you've got smiles on your faces because you think you're done, news. Now you two, I know that you've got smiles on your faces because you think you're done, but you're not, because I'm going to put you right back on the spot with two quickfire dilemma questions. Are you ready? Let's go. This is from Emma, and I'll be reading her message out.
Starting point is 00:34:56 Hi, Anna. I've been seeing my counsellor for four sessions now, and it's been great. Personally, I don't feel like I'll get any more out of my sessions, but my counsellor is being quite pushy about me having eight. It's very possible he's right and I could benefit from more sessions, but it's expensive and I really think I've made some big strides already. So how do I break up with him for now at least. I mean, Julian, you're a psychologist. What are we saying here? Yeah, I think this is a very interesting one. I would encourage Emma to wonder what is it about just breaking things off? So she's acknowledged that money is tricky, that it's a little bit expensive. So what's stopping you, Emma, from just acting on that?
Starting point is 00:35:50 That being said, back to this idea of holding different realities, is how can you potentially make that decision whilst also listening to whether your therapist has anything valuable to add in this context? You said maybe they're right, maybe it would be helpful to stay. So how can you stay with those realities, both your kind of perhaps desire to end with your therapist thought that maybe it could be helpful to stay? How can you come to a decision by holding both of those in mind? Right. I'm going to push you a little bit on this, Julian. So what are we saying? Because as a psychologist and having your own clients, are we saying that Emma is avoiding a little bit? Are we saying that Emma is avoiding a little bit or are we saying that she's like, I don't really have that much of a rapport with this guy and I just want to get out?
Starting point is 00:36:33 Yeah, that's what I think. Is that what you're seeing, Milena? Yeah. As a psychologist or as a therapist or whatever it is, I've come to you, I'm paying you for a service. And I understand that you may think that I need a few more sessions, but also I am me. And I feel like there has to be that level of respect there where it's like, if I'm feeling like I am done here, whether that's money or I'm not getting much out of this, there would be in no world where I would say to that person, but you know, you should do four more sessions or you should do this. I'm sorry. It's not by force. Email that person and that's it. Keep it moving. I don't understand why there's just a long ting with it. I love it. So you're like, email him, we're done. But Julian,
Starting point is 00:37:17 should she be having four more sessions? Has this guy got a point or is it kind of like, when your client says, I'm not feeling it anymore, do you just let them go? I think it's a very good point. You know, this idea of avoidance, I mean, I guess it's up to Emma to tune in with herself and be real with herself. You know, is this an avoidance thing? Has my therapist said something that's made me a little bit unsure and uncertain and now I can't afford it? Or is it that genuinely the rapport's not there? So I think it's about having that sort of frank conversation with yourself. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, the honest conversation around, is this really about money? Have you done the work or are you
Starting point is 00:37:53 avoiding? Okay, our second quickfire dilemma is an email from Sophie and Sophie wants a bit of advice about how to speak about money in her relationship. Hi Anna, I was hoping you could help me with my dilemma. It can't just be me who finds it awkward to discuss money with my partner. We've recently had a baby and I went back to work part-time so I could look after our baby one day a week and this means we don't have to pay for nursery full time, which is really costly. Because of this, I've taken a pay cut of about £300 a month. My partner earns more than I do. And at the end of the month, I feel like I have no money left, whereas he does. We split our bills mainly 50-50, but I feel he should be paying more than me since I'm earning less.
Starting point is 00:38:43 I find it awkward to have a discussion about it and I don't know the best way to do this. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Sophie. Oh my God, right? Money is such a taboo subject to talk about in a relationship and this is a real ick topic for me because I'm so triggered by this. I find it awkward as well. Oh man, So triggered by this. I find it awkward as well. Oh, man. Milena, right, what are your thoughts about money in a relationship?
Starting point is 00:39:10 Who's paying what where? I feel like in her position, you've had a whole baby with this person. Like, yo, like, I'm earning less. Help your baby mums out. Help me out. You know, and I feel like it should go without saying on his behalf like if he knows that you've taken a pay cut because you're going to be staying at home to look after our child the nice thing for him to do to be like hey babe what does this mean for you financially like how can we figure this out he hasn't done that cool she has now been left with this
Starting point is 00:39:42 responsibility to bring it up right and I just feel been left with this responsibility to bring it up. Right. And I just feel like, babes, you have to bring it up because what are you doing suffering whilst he's got an extra 10 quid to go out and do whatever it is that he's doing with it? Absolutely not. No. Hey, babe, are you free tonight to have a conversation when you get in from work? And it doesn't have to be down to the penny. I need to know what you're spending on. And, you know, this isn't me trying to take control of your money. It's just like, hey, I'm really struggling at the moment. How can we figure this out together? Love that. Julian, what should Sophie do here? Because, oh my God, the topic of money in a relationship. What would you be advising a client of yours?
Starting point is 00:40:31 Yeah, it's an interesting one because money is both money and it also holds symbolic value. I think sometimes it means love. Sometimes it means care. It can mean so many different things. Oh, no, I'm loving this. So money is money, but it's got symbolic value. Continue. In terms of the practicalities of having a conversation, I totally agree with Milena. I think just being super direct about it and also perhaps voicing, you know, the impact of this on me is X. To really get across how it's impacting me,
Starting point is 00:40:59 I think is a nice way of communicating with difficult conversations. But in terms of the symbolic aspect, I guess in my psychologist mind, I'd think, okay, so there is the practicality of money, but what has money come to mean for you in the context of this relationship? Is it that it feels as though he doesn't care as much? Is there another layer here that is maybe concealed or a little bit hidden by the concreteness of money. Yeah, this is it. Because I'm very, very triggered by people who are kind of like, this is mine. I don't want to share it. You are not valuable enough to me, if you like,
Starting point is 00:41:35 to be able to sort of be generous and to share this together. That's where I go mad about this kind of thing. And that's obviously to do with my own upbringing. But yeah, I mean, in this situation, I'm with you, Milena, which is kind of like, Sophie, you sit down with your other half and you go, I need to talk about this. Because as you said, I'm really struggling and it makes me feel like I'm not worth
Starting point is 00:41:58 you actually stepping up here and paying a little bit more in this situation. Milena, Julian, thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your expertise, your humour, your advice with me and also the rest of the listeners. We've definitely put you on the spot. And do you know what? You've both definitely more than delivered.
Starting point is 00:42:20 So thank you to both of you. And I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. But if you have a dilemma and really need some advice, then drop me a voice note at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. You can also find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook. Just search It Can't Just Be Me. And remember, whatever you're dealing with at the moment, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Nilsson. And the executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe.
Starting point is 00:43:17 Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.

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