It Can't Just Be Me - 19: Pets and Mental Health? With Pandora Morris

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

It’s Mental Health Awareness day this week, so who better to join Anna in the studio than mental health advocate and the host of the Hurt to Healing Podcast, Pandora Morris. Pandora’s story is one... of survival and resilience. And, in today’s episode, she shares her journey in response to a listener’s dilemma — as a reminder that everyone’s mental health journey is different. With the guidance of psychotherapist, Shabnam Yasmin, Anna and Pandora respond to a dilemma from a listener who found that having a dog was detrimental to their mental health. What follows is a powerful and moving conversation around the complex topic of Mental Health and positions of responsibility and care. The trio also offer advice to a listener who is struggling with dating and anxiety, and they respond to a dilemma from a listener thinking about changing career. We speak about eating disorders, OCD, anxiety, and severe mental health struggles in today’s episode. So, please take care when considering how, and when, to listen. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to itcantjustbeme@podimo.comThis podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Pulama KaufmanTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Twas the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Hello there, you lovely lot. You're locked in and listening to It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by, well, me, Anna. Now, this week we're going to be delving into the big, broad topic of mental health. It's a huge issue and one that has fortunately garnered a lot more attention recently than it has in previous years. But sometimes it can still feel so vast that you just don't know where to start. that you just don't know where to start.
Starting point is 00:00:45 So we were very grateful when a listener emailed in with a question around mental health and our four-legged canine friends. It might sound simple, but what follows is a really interesting conversation around how everyone's mental health journey is unique and how sometimes what works for one person might not be best for you. Just a heads up, in this episode, we do talk about eating disorders, and how sometimes what works for one person might not be best for you. Just a heads up, in this episode we do talk about eating disorders, OCD and mental health struggles. So look, be kind to yourself and skip this episode if it doesn't feel right to engage with these topics today. Hi Anna.
Starting point is 00:01:20 Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children
Starting point is 00:01:31 and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is Pandora Morris, the host of the Hurt to Healing podcast, which is one of our all-time favourite podcasts around mental health. Pandora is a mental health advocate, aspiring author, a former lawyer, she's brainy, and of course, a fellow very successful podcaster. One of the reasons I love Pandora's podcast so much is because of Pandora herself. She's been openly
Starting point is 00:02:12 fighting her own mental health battle for years, navigating OCD and a severe eating disorder in her teens, both of which fed into each other. But hurt to healing is her glimmer of hope, which fed into each other. But hurt to healing is her glimmer of hope, the beacon that says you can get better and that shines through in every episode. And although she describes herself as far from fixed in inverted commas, she aspires to help and support other people so that they feel less alone. I know and I can see already because I'm looking at her, that she'll be bringing that exact energy to today's show. So here she is, everyone. It's Pandora Morris. Pandora Morris, thank you so much for being with us here today. How are you feeling? After that introduction, I'm feeling very hopeful. So thank you for that.
Starting point is 00:03:00 It's so funny, isn't it, when people talk about you and intro you because you go, God, I sound incredible. Do you kind of like recognize just how much strong work you're doing around this and how many people love you? No, you're so kind for saying that. I think I find it really, really hard. And there's that inner critic inside my head that's always pushing for more and more. And every time I hear a good podcast, I have the opinion that, oh, gosh, you're just useless. It's interesting, isn't it, how we all compare ourselves, I suppose, and just how unhelpful that is, which we will be coming on to later on. Now, today, we are going to be talking around mental health, how that manifests differently for every individual. And we're also going to be talking about my favorite topic, which is basically animals, and in particular, dogs. But before we get started, each week, I ask my guests
Starting point is 00:03:50 to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So come on then, Morris, what have you got for us? Well, this is a long, hard process, but I have settled on It Can't Just Be Me, who has a bit of an allergy to people in the gym taking selfies in the mirrors and people taking selfies in changing rooms and bathrooms. So what are we talking about with the selfie? Is it like with their body or just their face? What's going on? Combination of both. I'm like, get a room, basically. Go and do this in your own bathroom. I mean, honestly, there's just no inhibitions. And there's just this sort of the pouting that goes on. And I just find it baffling that we live in this society that's
Starting point is 00:04:32 just almost breeding real self-obsessed, slight narcissists, I hate to say. What do you think is actually going on there then? I mean, is it just, it's just out and out narcissism, do you think? I think it's this idea that everyone's got to project this image of themselves. And I feel that by buying into this selfie culture, people are basically just perpetuating this false narrative of their lives. That's the reason I tend to avoid social media personally, because it's just basically creating this complete false bubble. I hear what you're saying that, you know, this is feeding into this reality we've got at the moment of people showing a fake, perfect life on social media, when actually we know from mental health stats that most of us just don't feel that way and that
Starting point is 00:05:17 actually social media can negatively impact your mental health. You said that you slightly avoid social media. Is that because you just think that it's just no good for me? Absolutely. I think it's no good for me. I look back at pictures of myself and sometimes the most attractive pictures are when I know that I was my most unhappy. And there's that sense of nostalgia. And I think we all fall victim to it, really. You go back onto your phone and you sort of look at 10 years ago at that holiday that you had, and you're so quick to disregard what was going through your head at that time. And I think, again, it's not really helping anyone's mental health. Why do we think that mental health has fallen off a cliff so dramatically in the last 10 years?
Starting point is 00:05:57 Well, we have the proliferation, as you say, of social media. So there's clearly a correlation. Thank you for that, Pandora. I mean, I could actually talk about this for an awful long time, but I recognise the fact that we are actually here to do another job, which is to turn our attention to today's listener dilemma. And to help us with this one, we also have with us today psychotherapist Shabnam Yasmin. Shabnam is a psychotherapist at the London Practice and also has her own private practice, SY Therapy. Shabnam, thank you so much for joining us today and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Anna. Is this the first time you've done a podcast? It is. It's the very first time,
Starting point is 00:06:41 so I'm really excited about being here. I love the fact that you're saying, I'm excited about this rather than I'm worried or nervous. I very first time, so I'm really excited about being here. I love the fact that you're saying, I'm excited about this, rather than, oh, I'm worried or nervous. I love that enthusiasm around, I'm going to embrace this. Yeah. No, well, for me, I'm 49 years old, and I just think, what an exciting thing to do. Oh, God, thank you so much. And again, thank you for being in the studio,
Starting point is 00:06:59 because we really do appreciate that. Thank you. Okay. So, girls, this week's dilemma is from Ash, and she's left us a voice note, and we're going to play it now. Hi, Anna. So it can't just be me that found having a pet impacted my mental health negatively. I found that most people I hear or things I see and read
Starting point is 00:07:20 say that having a pet, you know, helps their mental health, saved their life even. And I found the opposite. I found getting a dog really anxiety-inducing. It stopped my functionality. I wasn't able to eat, shower, function in a lot of ways. So it can't just be me that had that impact. I'm just wondering if that's normal.
Starting point is 00:07:40 Any advice or opinions would be helpful. I mean, I was not expecting that. I absolutely love animals. So I was not expecting to hear that somebody having a dog impacted them really negatively. So before we start, do either of you have pets? My daughter has a dog and I often share care with her. So yes. I'm detecting there's a little bit of kind of like nerves and anxiety there yourself. I have a mixed kind of opinion in terms of I love the dog. She's absolutely wonderful, but actually lots of responsibility. I feel like it's almost like becoming a parent again and my children are grown up. So
Starting point is 00:08:21 I'm going to come on to that. That's interesting. Pandora, do you have any pets? Mum and dad have a dog, the beloved. I call him Prince Albert. He seems to be by far the most favourite. Yeah, in our family, definitely the favourite child. That's interesting. And how old is he? He's two, two and a bit.
Starting point is 00:08:38 Oh, so he's a baby. What kind of dog is Prince Albert? He's a cockapoo. He's a cockapoo. Okay. And Shabnam, what's your dog? Cocker Spaniel. Oh, we've got a lot of cockers going on.
Starting point is 00:08:48 Yeah. You see, I've got a rescue staffie that I got with my ex Sue and we now share her called Piggy. So Prince Albert. And what's your dog called, Shabnam? Dr. Meredith Grey. Dr. Meredith Grey. And how old is she? She's four years old.
Starting point is 00:09:02 Oh, so still relatively young because my Piggy is about 11 or 12 now, so she's an old girl. She's an old girl. Can I ask, then, how have they both impacted your life, your moods, your mental health, whether it's been negative, whether it's been positive? Give me the whole thing. So, Shabnam, I'll start with you. So, one of the things that I actually notice in terms of positive with Meredith is that she really knows how to ask for her needs to be met. So for example, if she's feeling anxious,
Starting point is 00:09:34 she will just come to you and just fall on top of you. And that's her cue to stroke me now, because I need some soothing. I need some hugs. And I always think to myself, as human beings, we're not very good at doing that. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. Pandora, how about you? I mean, how does Prince Albert manifest in your life? And is it positively or negatively?
Starting point is 00:09:55 Well, interesting that you ask, because to start with, I'd say for the first year and a half, there was quite a lot of jealousy between me and Albert. What was that? I just couldn't understand how my mum could shower so much love and affection on this animal. When I felt growing up, I was shown no love or affection. And suddenly Albert arrived and it was like she transformed overnight. And every time she walked in, she'd go, oh, darling, hello. And now I'm standing there like, hey. And then every time she left the house and I was left looking after him,
Starting point is 00:10:26 he would howl and howl and howl and I literally at one point it was like having a screaming child that just would not stop crying and I sort of
Starting point is 00:10:32 ended up thinking what's wrong with me Albert I'm here and actually I broke my leg in April and as a result I was slightly more
Starting point is 00:10:39 housebound and I have to say we've now bonded and I actually he makes me laugh a lot and I sort of, I don't know, there's definitely an affectionate bond that's been created.
Starting point is 00:10:50 I mean, I can feel a full-on therapy session coming on here. So there's so much to say here, Pandora. So I'm detecting, as with a lot of us, a difficult relationship possibly between you and your mum. And then suddenly this cockapoo rocks up and he's getting everything. So you have that almost sibling jealousy going on with this dog. So why do you think you've now reached a level where you accept each other? Is it that you've embraced him more, do you think? Or do you think he's recognised in you that maybe you've changed and calmed down towards him? Yeah, I think that's very astute of you. I think it's a combination of both. I think as I've grown a bit in confidence and I found my sense of purpose and have become more boundaried around my mom, I think I've now actually seen Albert for actually what he can
Starting point is 00:11:36 give me. And in terms of the effect he's had on my mental health, I actually find the companionship of having him around when I'm alone in the house very cathartic. And there's something about a dog. They just know when you're feeling slightly more raw and sensitive, they pick up on your emotions. And I think they can be quite like a sponge. So I don't have to do the legwork. If I had to look after Albert all the time, I think I would feel very, very differently. The fact is, is I get the highs, I can dip in and out and I see him and I don't have to organize all the sort of the messy bits in between. Okay. If we go back to Ash, she's found that having a dog is really detrimental to her mental health to the point that it's inhibiting her ability to function actually. So Shabnam, if Ash was your client, what would you be saying to
Starting point is 00:12:24 her? One of the things that I'd like to highlight is, as we've mentioned, if Ash was your client, what would you be saying to her? One of the things that I'd like to highlight is, as we've mentioned, having a dog is wonderful, but actually the responsibility of having a dog can be immense too. So for example, there are vet bills, which can be very expensive. And also it takes away from you as well a little bit. So when Ash talks about not being able to eat or not being able to sleep, I wonder whether she's feeling an immense sense of responsibility for the dog. My suggestion is to look at what are her fundamental needs. Maybe she needs somebody to help her take care of the
Starting point is 00:12:56 dog, or maybe there's other things that she needs help with, perhaps, you know, friends to talk to or some mental health support. So it really is looking about what's going to meet her fundamental needs. Well, it feels a little bit like we've got to work out what, as you say, Shabnam, Ash's needs are and how they're not being met, but also what the dog's needs are. So certainly when Piggy came into my life, she's got an anxiety disorder. She's a rescue. We cannot leave her. And I mean, when I say we can't leave her, she will follow us from room to room. There's no way that we could go out for the day. So when you take on a dog, you're talking about the regular feeding, the regular
Starting point is 00:13:35 walking, the companionship, the stimulation. It is kind of like having a kid. But I'm wondering as well with Ash, whether, I wonder how old she is, I don't know how old she is. I'm wondering about that transition. And I'm sure Pandora, you can identify with this, the transition between being cared for, being a child, and transitioning into adulthood, where suddenly you have a lot of responsibility. I mean, does that resonate at all with you, Pandora? Yeah, completely. I think suddenly when you've got your own bills to pay, you're living independently, you've got life admin, and you're trying to look after yourself. I think suddenly adding another being into the mix, which you're having to take responsibility for. Some people
Starting point is 00:14:15 just take it in their stride. And I've got friends, mainly friends who are in couples, who decide to have a dog. It's almost like that preliminary step before having a child, right? But I think it's challenging doing it alone. And I think sometimes, particularly while you're still a young adult, it can be really, really challenging. A hundred percent. I'm not sure that I would want to have a dog on my own because it is so restrictive. But having said that, it's also incredibly enhancing. But Shabnam, does that make sense about that transition between childhood almost, and then this is adult real life? Yeah, definitely. And I think sometimes people kind of think that they'd like to look after somebody. And I guess that it's about knowing, and I always talk to clients about this as well in terms of reality testing. So look at
Starting point is 00:15:01 really what it's going to take from your life to look after a dog, say, for example. How much am I going to have to give up? What are the needs of the dog, like you said earlier, Anna, and see whether you can meet their needs before you dive headlong into having one. Pandora, I know that you've been very, very open about your own mental health struggles, but for those people who are hearing this for the first time, could you just fill us in a little bit with your own story? Of course I can. So I was diagnosed with OCD when I was about 11. Looking back on my life history, I think I started to show symptoms when I was about four. Really? In what way?
Starting point is 00:15:39 I was obsessive about checking under the bed every night. I would have to check every door was locked. Very classic early signs of OCD. But I'd say that the compulsive element really, really kicked in when I had a meltdown. I was at boarding school and I just started having these daily panic attacks. And then they started to become multiple times a day and had to be pulled out of school. And pretty quickly after that, the OCD really, really escalated. And I then developed anorexia and obsessive exercising. By the age of 14, I was running about 20 to 25 miles every day. Running was the one thing that made me feel like
Starting point is 00:16:19 I was alive and that I was achieving something and I had a purpose. And it was almost like I was using it to numb all those painful emotions and those feelings I just couldn't cope with. And as the running escalated, the panic attacks subsided. I was living on this precipice, right? I was not well at all, but I convinced myself that it was my lifeline, essentially. Tell us about at what point you recognized that I actually am really quite unwell and what treatment you sought and your own journey towards healing? I think I realized that I was pretty unwell by the time I was 14. I was having to go as an outpatient to be weighed every week because my weight had plummeted so much. And getting dressed in the morning to go to school was taking me two to three hours. And I won't go into the intricate
Starting point is 00:17:10 details of my OCD, but suffice to say that I had to have these patterns of people that I would imagine every time I did something. So every time I put on a sock or a trouser leg or a jumper, I would have to do it until I had the exact right sequence of people in my head. And if one of those images was missing or was wrong, I had to do it all over again. So every task took hours. And I think it got to the point where life was becoming impossible to live, essentially. I mean, I went into treatment in my 20s. I got signed off work when I was a lawyer, just about coped without being hospitalized. I kept breaking bones, which was a sign that my body just wasn't able to withstand the physical abuse that I was putting it under. I was on the wait list for an NHS unit, which is the only unit in the UK that does OCD inpatient treatment. And
Starting point is 00:17:55 that then closed due to COVID. So that had been my lifeline since I stopped working as a lawyer and I decided, right, I'm going to now really focus on my mental health. And in fact, it wasn't until I was lucky enough to go to the States at absolute crisis point, it just got to the point where I just, I couldn't see the point of, I was existing rather than living. And I had been for a number of years and I was watching my friends settling down, getting married, starting to have children. And I just thought this is, what is this? Yeah. It wasn't then until I got to the states and I had very very intensive exposure response prevention treatment where I literally did seven hours a day seven days a week for six months of therapy of therapy and doing all exposure after exposure after exposure
Starting point is 00:18:38 so in OCD what you do is you expose someone to their fear gradually. So I was out and about constantly trying to rewire my brain and enforce that neuroplasticity and take advantage of that. But that was just the start, Anna. I came back after six months there. And of course, you have a baseline and you drop below that baseline, but you don't drop as far as I was at my rock bottom before I left. And since then, that was three years ago, I've been trying to slowly rebuild up to where I got in LA and I'm slowly getting there,
Starting point is 00:19:13 but every day is a real marathon. I try and describe it to listeners on the podcast as though it's like having a second brain that whirs away and I have to keep that brain under control and I have to manage it. And it's not easy because it's exhausting, first of all, and everything I do is a trigger. So coming here today, I have an OCD trigger around new things. So everything new that I do, my OCD wants me to do X, Y, and Z compulsions. So to make it all right and to make the new chapter, the right new chapter where good things are going to happen. So essentially, it's like saying a prayer. But I know that to beat my OCD, I can't say any of those prayers. I can't imagine any of those people. I can't go and exercise, which again, is part of the
Starting point is 00:19:53 compulsive element. So it's trying to live life and to realize that life can be so much richer and more full. And I can meet some incredible people like you. And that's where my hope for recovery comes. Do you know, just listening to you, and I hope you take this the right way, which is there's so much pain. There's so much pain. It upsets me. I'm really sorry. I'm actually really sorry.
Starting point is 00:20:21 I'm sorry, Pandora. Hi, Anna. Are you okay? Yeah, no, it's just really upsetting, actually. Sorry. Do we want to take a little breather? Yeah, maybe once. Sorry.
Starting point is 00:20:33 Not at all. Yeah. You finish the drinks, you and your date have said your goodbyes, and you're immediately on the phone to your best friend. I, like, messaged all my friendship groups. You're never going to believe what's just happened to me. From Podomo and 2020, this is First Dates, the podcast.
Starting point is 00:20:49 I'm Cece Coleman. And I'm Frankie Bridge. We'll be bringing you the most amazing, bizarre, and heartwarming dating stories. He's like, this girl is crazy. It's First Dates, the podcast. Get it wherever you're listening to this or visit listentofirstdates.com.
Starting point is 00:21:06 So sorry. So I shall pull myself back together and carry on with the podcast. I just found that so touching and so, so upsetting. And, you know, just for me to sit opposite Pandora and to see somebody who's a survivor and who's doing so well and inspiring and helping other people who may be suffering. So I need to ask you what has helped you in terms of getting better? And I know it's a continual journey. First of all, I'd say what's helped me is feeling less shame and feeling less judged. So starting the podcast was a real leap of faith because suddenly it's like my shit's out there. You assume when you're so unwell in yourself that everyone just knows and everyone gets it. And it's just astonished me how many of my friends
Starting point is 00:21:53 messaged me saying, I just had no idea. Really? Yeah. So I think surrounding myself with a community of people who I could be totally open with, you know, if I have to go to the gym for X number of hours a day, if I find new things really challenging, if I can't eat certain foods, if I can't go out for dinner, if I am particular about this, see that I'm making progress and I'm making strides towards being the person that I'd love to be and having the freedom around life that I will hopefully have in a number of years time if I keep moving forward. This is it, isn't it? It's about the journey forward. And Shabnam, I want to come to you because as a psychotherapist and listening to Pandora, for you as a professional,
Starting point is 00:22:33 you must hear this all the time. What would you want to say to Pandora or anybody else listening that's been suffering about their ability to transform and to change? So first of all, Pandora, listening to your story, I'm so grateful that you're sharing that with other young people. I have two young daughters in their 20s. And when they listen to your content, it makes them feel like they can actually speak as well. I love that thing of permission giving. When you share your story, it actually gives other people permission to share theirs as well. So I think firstly, that's amazing. The other thing that I want to kind of bust the myth around is this whole being resolved. We're never really fully resolved. Even the amount of work that I have done on myself, for example, in terms of seven
Starting point is 00:23:20 years of therapy while studying as a psychotherapist, there are still days when I revert back to my old ways of being under stress. Absolutely. And it's about checking in with myself and kind of going, okay, I'm back there again. That's okay. Just again, as a therapist, how can we balance, would you say, our responsibilities of adult life, which is stressful, whilst at the same time looking after our own mental health. How do you ask your clients to check in with themselves and just manage that balance? Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that I always say to them is, it's around acceptance. Acceptance that life actually is difficult at the moment.
Starting point is 00:24:00 So the first part is acceptance that, okay, it is is a lot and a lot of people who are living on their own you know it's so much to manage a house running a household itself is a full-time job and then alongside that you want to be successful at work you also want to have relationships and friendships so just accepting that actually that is a lot to contend with yeah so if you're struggling no wonder you're struggling. And I think just that in itself allows people to feel like, okay, there isn't something wrong with me because I think that's where people's mind tends to go straight away.
Starting point is 00:24:34 There's something wrong with me because everybody out there can do it, but I can't do it. I mean, I'm really glad that you've said that because I'm struck by Ash's use of the word normal in her dilemma where she's going well I'm just you know is it normal yeah to feel this way it's almost as if she's saying that her stress isn't legitimate because nobody else and no one else struggles with having a dog the shame around our emotions Pandora you know you can recognize that can't you the shame of feeling something when you think no
Starting point is 00:25:06 one else is yeah absolutely and i think that i just really dislike that word normal because what is normal i mean who defines where normal lies i mean what one person's normal is might be another person's weird so i think if we try and make our lives quote-unquote normal we spiral into shame very quickly because we then suppress all of our so-called idiosyncratic behaviors and weirder habits and particularly things like mental health. And we then live in this cloud of shame. And so for me, shame is something that I do contend with on a daily basis. And even now, I'm ashamed to admit to a lot of my friends what I have to do to get through the day.
Starting point is 00:25:45 Some of them know, and some people would look at me being like, oh my God, you shouldn't be doing that. And then there are all these shoulds and shouldn'ts and I should be this. And at my age, I often get asked, oh, what's a girl like you doing single still? Why haven't you met your partner? And I feel like saying to them, do you know what, F you, because I'm actually on my journey. And if I don't meet that person, do you know what, F you, because I'm actually on my journey. And if I don't meet that person, then just because societal norms dictate that I should be at a certain stage by a certain age, it's again, it's like this constant reinforcing the shame. And I think with mental health, particularly, it's about just extinguishing this sense of shame that we all live in. Absolutely. I literally could talk about this for hours on end, but I'm very conscious that I do want to leave Ash with some concrete advice. We want to help her find a way to manage what's
Starting point is 00:26:34 best for her as well as her dog. Okay. So Shabnam, if I start with you, what would be your advice to Ash? I think one of the things that I would look at is what life was like before and what was she struggling with before and now having the dog how has that changed and that probably will give you the answers in terms of what she needs so it might be that when she does that she realizes that actually she needs some support with the dog. And I hope today gives her some validation around how difficult it is, the level of responsibility that it takes to have a dog. You do need other support from other people. So just bear that in mind. Pandora, what would you say to Ash? My advice would be that if it's too much, I'd say don't beat yourself up and just be okay with the fact that at this stage in
Starting point is 00:27:25 your life, having a dog just isn't a possibility. Maybe further down the line it will be and don't have any shame or any guilt in admitting that you've tried it and it's not working for you. So why put yourself under undue stress and pressure? And I'd just say maybe try and find the dog a really friendly home and somewhere that you can go and visit it and just give yourself a break. I do agree with you. I mean, obviously, I'd want to sort of talk to Ash a little bit more around, as Shabnam says, what was going on for you before you got the dog? Why did you get your dog? Is it the right dog for you?
Starting point is 00:28:00 It may just be too young. It might be too needy. It might be too anxious. Is it enhancing your life in any way? If it isn't, and it's just too much of a pain, then I think as you say, Pandora, there comes a point when the kindest thing to do for both you and the dog is to re-home the dog with a family that can cope perhaps much better. Look, thank you to both of you. Ash, I really hope that you're listening and that you found this conversation helpful
Starting point is 00:28:28 or at least reassuring in some way. It is tricky having a dog. Please keep in touch and let us know because we do love to hear it when listeners give us feedback and tell us how things are going. And also, if you're listening to this and you're shouting at your device at the moment
Starting point is 00:28:44 going, Ash needs to do this, let us know. We're really keen to hear what your advice would be as well to somebody that's going through this. However, guys, we're not done with you just yet because I do have two more quickfire dilemmas that I would love your advice on. So I'm looking for your immediate knee-jerk reaction. This is quick. Okay, our first dilemma is from Amelia. Here we go. Hi, Anna. I'm Amelia and I'm 23 years old. I just want some advice on like dating with anxiety and how to be more confident within myself to speak to people because when people speak to me like if a boy would start talking to me I always think yeah
Starting point is 00:29:33 well you're only doing that you feel sorry for me it's hard because I've got a younger sister she's like two years younger than me but she's had quite a few relationships and like it just makes me feel really rubbish. I've only ever had like one sort of relationship that's lasted longer than like two months. How do you like get to the point where you feel confident in yourself to be able to meet someone? Where do people meet people? Like there's literally no one around. I hope you all are very well thank you very much Amelia listen we're all sending you a massive audio hug your way look dating is is tough enough
Starting point is 00:30:14 at the best of times and couple that with anxiety if it's any reassurance at all according to mental health UK there are over 8 million people in the UK struggling with an anxiety disorder at any one time. So you really are not alone in this. I'm wondering immediately about A, your self-confidence, but B, comparing yourself to your sister. But I'm going to talk to the experts in the room. Shabnam, first of all, what are we saying here with Amelia? So one of the best things that I say to my clients is just honesty, letting other people know. So that example that Amelia gave of, I'm wondering whether he's talking to me because he feels sorry for me. I always say to clients, check it out, ask him. Because, you know, letting people know
Starting point is 00:31:02 the anxieties that you feel, what you'll find is sometimes they're also feeling the same way. So I think it's really important just to kind of adopt that honesty around, this is who I am. Yes, I have anxiety. I'm working on it. But, you know, in the meantime, what would ease my anxiety is knowing whether you feel sorry for me. That's a really good bit of advice. Just being honest and upfront and saying, you know, do you really like me or is it just that you feel a feel sorry for me. That's a really good bit of advice, just being honest and upfront and saying, you know, do you really like me or is it just that you feel a bit sorry for me? Pandora, how has anxiety and your OCD, for example, affected your ability to date and meeting the right person? Well, truth be told, I mean, it hasn't really been an option, to be honest, and nor has it
Starting point is 00:31:42 been such a priority. In my head, I would love to meet someone. And I always joke about my knight in shining armor appearing through the door. But I hope that I'll meet him one day organically. I know that I've got to get a bit more confidence first. And I think I've got to get into the space where I've learned to love myself a bit more. But I'm not living just in order to meet that person. The sense of comparison, I've got a brother and he's gone from not living just in order to meet that person. The sense of comparison, I've got a brother and he's gone from one long-term relationship to another,
Starting point is 00:32:13 and that's always hard. But I try and say, okay, we have very, very different lives. And meeting people in this day and age is incredibly tough, particularly if you don't want to do the dating apps, which for me would just induce a whole deluge of anxiety. I hear you there. I'm thinking straight away, as I said at the top, Amelia, that don't compare yourself to your sister. Your sister is a different person. That's her journey. She's doing things in a different way. And there is something around working on your confidence. And as Shabnam says, I love the idea of just sitting there with a guy and going, look, I'm feeling a bit shitty, actually. I feel a bit low about this. I feel a bit embarrassed and a bit anxious. Do you like me or what's going on here? And it's really interesting because I have a lot of young
Starting point is 00:32:53 male clients who are feeling exactly the same way. Oh, really? And when I present it to them, they're like, actually, we would appreciate that honesty. Really? So that's coming from the guys that you deal with? Yeah. I really loved, I remember watching this comedian say, actually sit back and say, do I like him? Rather than wondering whether he likes you or not, just sit back and kind of go, do I even like you? Yeah, how much do I like you, actually? That is a good bit of advice.
Starting point is 00:33:18 Thank you. Okay, our next dilemma is from Alice, who's looking for some advice around changing career. Here we go. Hi, Anna. So I currently work in the third sector, and I sort of fell into the job by accident. But I've done really well. I've been working for the last four years, and I've been promoted and have a good job. But I think I've always wanted to work in the sort of creative and art sector. And I feel like now is the right time. But I suppose I'm a bit nervous about making the jump and maybe being a bit too late to the game. And losing all this experience the last four years
Starting point is 00:33:59 and going back to entry level. And yeah, I'm just sort of looking for any advice or guidance please. Oh now Pandora you would know a thing or two about this because you left a job as a corporate lawyer to be where you are today what would you say to Alice about the courage to change career? I'd say do it I think four years is a very very short period of time first of all and anyway it's never too late I look at a lot of my friends who have been stuck in the same careers now for 12, 13 years. And I think actually God life can be so much richer and so much more fulfilling. And if you're not happy with where you're at, particularly if you're a creative, you're not feeling that that creative sparks being satisfied. I just, there's no doubt in my mind,
Starting point is 00:34:42 jump. It's going to be incredibly scary, but only through facing our fears do exciting things happen. And that's definitely something I've learned with the podcast. That is fantastic advice. I mean, Shabnam, you go along with that presumably, don't you? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I used to be a lecturer and I changed my profession when I was 40. Oh, really? Kind of late thirties, 40, retrained as a psychotherapist. And I have to say, it's the best thing I ever did. When you start doing
Starting point is 00:35:08 the thing that you love, you become the person that will attract other people into your life in a positive way. So you attract good friendships, the dating that we just spoke about earlier. If you really are truly happy,
Starting point is 00:35:22 people want to be around you because that happiness, that confidence, it's infectious. You're living your authentic life. Absolutely. It's more aligned to your values, isn't it? That's it. And is that what you experience, Pandora, is that actually I need to leave this world. It's just not, it just doesn't resonate with who I actually am. Yeah, completely. It was becoming toxic. I was losing my will to live and actually suddenly people say to me now that god something's changed your energy's just shifted and you just suddenly
Starting point is 00:35:50 seem like you're living in accordance to your values and your purpose and it really does put a bounce in your stride when you feel that you're fulfilling your mission and what you're meant to be doing as opposed to this slog that I think a lot of us fall victim to believing that we have to do these yeah-unquote high professional jobs. Absolutely. We did actually reach out to Alice and we found out that she's only 26. So why is it that people in their 20s can feel so trapped at work despite being so young? I do think it's because we've looked at our system in terms of you do high school and then you're supposed to go to university. There's this idea of what you're supposed to do.
Starting point is 00:36:29 And I think so many, interestingly, I have clients in their 20s up to kind of 30 who are facing that dilemma of, for example, I'm in finance now, but actually I really hate it. And that's what I thought I ought to do because that's what everybody else was doing. hate it. And that's what I thought I ought to do because that's what everybody else was doing. And nobody really asks the children when they're at school, what do you want to do? And they're kind of given a format of these are all the professions out there and this is what you need to do to get to that place. But nobody really stops and asks, what are you good at? What do you want to do? And I think these are the questions that young people are asking themselves now. Absolutely right. And do you know what? I loved what you were saying just a second ago, Pandora,
Starting point is 00:37:14 about it's never too late. I mean, Alice, you're only 26. You've got the rest of your life ahead of you. So I would say absolutely change professions. If you're unhappy, oh boy, leave, do what you want to do. But it is never too late. I've been doing some conferences this week and there was so much inspiration out there for older people, people who've been in a career for a long time, who want to change careers like you did, Shabnam, at 40, basically. You absolutely have the ability to do that. So I would say, yeah, totally go for it. Pandora, it has been a joy. It's been emotional to be with you today and to learn more about your ongoing journey. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. And I can see that you are still very much on your journey to healing and happiness. And long may that last. You're an inspiration to everybody.
Starting point is 00:38:08 So carry on being that inspiration. And Shabnam, thank you for being with us today from the London practice and also your own practice. Was it SY? SY Therapy. SY Therapy. Thank you for your wisdom and expertise. It's been absolutely invaluable.
Starting point is 00:38:24 I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, if you find yourself with a dilemma and you really need some advice, then drop me a voice note at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email your dilemma to itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. And if you can't get enough of the podcast, which frankly, I don't blame you, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me. Because whatever you're dealing with at the moment, I promise you, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been it can't just be me hosted by me anna richardson the
Starting point is 00:39:11 producers are laura williams and christy calloway gale the editor is palama corfman the executive producers for podimo are jake chudnow and matt white the executive producer for mags is james norman fife don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.

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