It Can't Just Be Me - 2: Partner envious of success? With Scarlette Douglas

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Scarlette Douglas (I'm a Celeb 2022, A Place in the Sun) helps Anna unpack a dilemma from a woman who thinks her boyfriend resents her successful career.In this episode Scarlette offers her advice and opens up about her own experience with an ex who she felt wasn’t supportive of her dreams. Anna and Scarlette are joined in the studio by psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Nkolo from The London Practice. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. For more information and resources on the topic of controlling behaviour go to womensaid.org.uk or refuge.org.ukFrom Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, and welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me, the podcast where I aim to sort out your life issues with the help of our experts and some brilliant celebrity guests. Now, today, we're talking all about relationships and work, and the inevitable tension that can arise between partners when one half of a couple's career takes off. I've definitely been in situations before where I felt like my partner has totally faked their pleasure in certain successes I've had. But you know what? I'm a little bit ashamed to say that I've done the same thing too. Success should be shared when you love somebody, surely. But the reality is, insecurities tend to show up in totally unexpected ways. So let's get into the middle. I feel like a Teletubby.

And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is the simply gorgeous Scarlett Douglas. Scarlett has been presenting some of the UK's favourite property shows since 2015. No doubt you've seen her on A Place in the Sun and Love It or List It. And of course, she was in last year's I'm a Celebrity alongside Matt Hancock and Chris Moyles. She's also currently

single after coming out of a long-term relationship and is in the process of really getting to know herself again. Scarlett, I hear you. Scarlett Douglas, you gorgeous young thing, you. How are you? Thank you so much for coming into the studio today. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Well, listen, I have a listener dilemma

that I think is going to be right up your street. But before we get stuck into it, I ask every single guest that comes in to bring their own It Can't Just be me dilemma. So what have you got for us, please? It can't just be me that wants to save every last bit of food. Oh. Yeah.

I am a huge foodie, Anna. And if I go out for dinner, and even if I've left just one bit of broccoli, one bit of chicken or fish, whatever it is, I always ask for a doggy bag to take it away. So, I mean, do you even have a dog though? No. Oh, so this is just for you? It's a doggy bag for myself. Absolutely. Yeah. A personal doggy bag? Yes, please. And do you just save your own food and ask for a doggy bag or do you actually go and collect other people's food? Well, I don't go to random tables, obviously, but on my own table, friends, family, if you're not going to eat that, just stick that in my little Tupperware and I'll take it home with

me. Thanks. Please actually tell me that you do have your own Tupperware when you go out. I actually do. But wait, no, that's if I'm going to more family events. So I'm Jamaican, so family events always go with Tupperware because there's always food left over. That's really interesting to me because obviously being Jamaican, that, you know, food is really central, isn't it, to your culture? And it's all about family and food and celebration. So genuinely people rock up with their own Tupperware because it's going to be excess food. And even if you don't come with your own Tupperware, it's fine because they will have Tupperware there to give you to take home. Wow. And if I've been to a restaurant and they try and tell me

they don't have a Tupperware to take it away in, I say, well, you'll definitely have foil. Every kitchen has foil. So just put it in the foil, wrap it up and I'll take it like that. I love the fact you actually challenge them. Absolutely. It's like, well, you've got foil.

I know you've got foil, so give me the food. Exactly. I did it once at the Shard. I took my mum when it first opened and I asked if they had a takeaway tub and they said they didn't. I said, okay, but you have foil. They said, yeah, but I said, that's perfect. Then just got you into the studio, because we've had a dilemma in from our community, and I'm really keen to get your take on it, because I think it's something that you are

going to be able to relate to. I also want to introduce and welcome our psychotherapist, Sam Pennells-Encolo from the London practice, who's going to get stuck into the dilemma as well and share some professional advice so that it's not just basically you and me gossiping scarlet. Sam, thank you so much for coming in. I'm very excited to be here. We're very excited to have you. Are we ready, girls? Here's a voice note from Flick. She's 31 and she's looking for some guidance on her relationship. Hi, Anna. I'm arguing a lot with my partner at the moment

about how long I've been working recently and I suppose I'm worried more generally about him not supporting my career. When we first got together I hadn't really found my dream job but in the last year or so I've started to really find my stride and I'm pretty excited about the work that I'm doing. It feels like he maybe liked me more when I was less independent and ambitious. He also kind of, he puts my job down in front of our mutual friends and he recently messaged my sister to complain

about me. I'm earning more money than him now and I don't think he likes it. I don't really know what to do. Please help. I have so much to say on this. Do you? Listen, I am loving this because my first reaction is, oh, yeah, you know, you found a job you love, you know, enjoy it, girl. But I'm also hearing envy from her boyfriend. So look, Scarlett, you've got a lot to say about this. Let's start with you first. Gut reaction, please. Okay. First of all, Flick, it sounds like you have an incredible job at the moment, which you are super happy about. It's incredible. You're making, by the sounds of it, a good amount of money. I've actually been in a situation like this before, and it's easy for me to say now that

I'm out of that situation, but you have to do what's best for you. And I think at 31, you're still so young. So don't let one person that is supposed to be your better half make you feel as though you're lesser than them or that you should be lesser than them because they should only encourage you and build you up and support you. And I don't think that's what your partner's doing. So you mentioned just a second ago that you've been in a similar situation. Are you comfortable to share any more about that? Yes. So in my past past relationship I was with the

the guy for two years I've been lucky enough to have had a very good career especially in the tv world over the last few years and when we got together I was kind of at a point where it was progressing quite quickly and because it was during covid time unfortunately his work had totally stopped but I was still able to work and I just remember how he was with me and how he'd treat me and the things that he would say and try and put me down. And, you know, why have you got to work all the time? It's not all about work. It's about family. It's about friends, about your partners, your loved ones. Now, I absolutely agree with all of that side of it. But what I did notice is that anytime I had something good come in work-wise, he was never happy about it.

It got to a point, unfortunately, where I felt I had to just not tell him my good news anymore because he would always put me down about it. And he was never encouraging. He was never happy. He was never like, congratulations, babe, I'm so proud of you. It was always the complete opposite. So you started withholding then information from him? Absolutely, yeah. So what do you think was actually at the heart of the issue between you and your other half? I think if I'm honest, looking back now, it was his own insecurity. I think it was the male ego and pride that was getting bashed.

Unfortunately, I was doing very well. I've invested my money correctly. I've got assets. If we are in a lockdown, I know I've got money coming in from different places. And he didn't have anything. And he really struggled with that. Did you try and repair the relationship at all? Absolutely. And we spoke about it a lot. And I thought it was getting better. And then unfortunately, it wasn't. So then that relationship ended. It was the best thing for it to have ended because I realised I wasn't the person that I am in that relationship. I was actually not even excited to go to work anymore. And I love what I do. I absolutely love speaking to people. I

love getting to travel for my work and I didn't want to do it. And the minute I came out of that relationship, I really realised how much I was very suffocated and I felt very suffocated in that relationship. And it has an effect on you that you don't even realise until you're actually out of it. I think that's so true. I can see our psychotherapist, Sam, nodding along vigorously throughout this whole thing. So actually, Sam, I want to bring you into this conversation as well. And before we even focus on Flick, I'm just intrigued by what you're saying, Scarlett. What's your reaction to what Scarlett's saying? I mean, it's something that I've heard time and time again, unfortunately. And it's the power dynamic of the man and the woman and who earns more money. What

does that mean? If we think about it from an evolutionary perspective, the hunter-gatherer to protect, to provide. Now, if we're not doing that now, you know, those drives still exist. So how do partners negotiate that? And what's the fall fallout that's so interesting that you said you know the person that you are now on some level it made me think of you know you're stifled so you had to censor yourself yeah because that's not healthy for anybody not at all I'm a very outgoing person I love going out for dinner meeting friends picnic in the parks and I just didn't do any of it I was not really my friends. I wasn't really speaking to my friends. I was at home. He didn't really want me to go out anywhere or kind of do anything. And it's funny because I haven't really spoken about this to many people, but I am a, I'd like to think I'm a strong,

independent woman, career driven. And I was in a situation where that had totally changed. And I was, instead of doing things for me and what was making me happy, I was doing things for him to keep the peace and to make him happy. Going back to Flick, in her love life, her boyfriend is getting upset with her. So I can understand that naturally she wants to pacify him. She wants to make it okay at home. So what should she be doing? Because she clearly feels disempowered. what should she be doing? Because she clearly feels disempowered. Yeah, no, totally. She's taking a position where she's appeasing. And that's not where we want to be. We don't want to appease someone. We don't want to kind of feed into their ego because it disempowers us or disempowers that person. So she is in a position that we don't want to be in.

It's unhealthy. That's interesting. But you're also saying that it disempowers the aggressor, as it were. How? Because then we're feeding a need that they need to feed themselves. So if he, for example, is feeling insecure about the fact that he's maybe not earning a lot of money and Flick's doing something to try to help, it just actually makes it worse. So on some level, we infantilize our partners and we start to parent our partners. And there is a place for that, but not in this type of scenario. So it always comes down to parenting, doesn't it? That we're trying to parent our partner. I mean, Scarlett, you're saying yes and you're nodding. This sounds familiar to you. Yeah, that's exactly where I got to because he just wasn't doing anything and I felt like I

was doing everything for him. You know, I can certainly identify with some of what you're saying. And Sam, you must hear this all the time. Why do strong, intelligent, career-driven women end up staying in relationships that can become, let's face it, toxic? Why do we stay? that can become, let's face it, toxic. Yes. Why do we stay? Because it taps into something else. So those insecurities,

if a person in a relationship starts to display that, typically the other person will start to try to fix, to try to help. And then what happens is that's at the expense of the self. So then that starts to erode self-confidence, self-esteem, and then we keep doing that. And what happens? We become, I don't want to say a shell of a person, but you don't recognize yourself.

It's so true that. Can you recognize that in yourself, Scarlett? Are you a fixer? A hundred percent. I am. Where does that come from? I think it's maybe something that I've seen my mum do. My mum is always the one that everybody goes to if they've got a problem. So I've always been that person. And I remember when I came out of my last relationship, I actually sought therapy and the lady told me to have a look at Enneagram types and I'm an Enneagram type two, which is the helper. And I remember listening to this audio book and everything it was saying is so me. And I would help to the point where actually it was detrimental, not just to myself, but also to the other person that was helping because then they're not helping themselves at all.

I've not heard of the Enneagram approach or this sort of definition. What is it, Sam? Well, it's a way of categorizing people. So putting people in a box, what type are you? So are you the helper? Are you the fixer? Are you passive? Are you, you know, so that kind of thing, which can be really helpful if we don't recognize it in ourselves. And again, people say, oh, that's so me. That's me. And then we've got kind of a template to understand ourselves. And we don't have to stick to that label, but it can be helpful. That's interesting, isn't it?

That labels can help us to categorize ourselves and understand ourselves better. I mean, you clearly have a great deal of insight into yourself and your life, Scarlett, because you have that template from your mother and that family dynamic. Interestingly, I come from quite a fractured family. So my parents split when I was 10. I'm the only girl in my family. And my mum has said to me that I was pleased that I just wanted everything to be OK because it was so chaotic at home. So I think if there's somebody that's upset or anxious, I want to fix it as well. I just want it to be okay. Because it was so chaotic at home. So I think if there's somebody that's

upset or anxious, I want to fix it as well. I just want it to be okay. And that can then end up making the situation worse. Because ultimately, Sam, all relationships are about dynamics, aren't they? Yeah. Well, look, back to Flick. I actually found quite a surprising statistic that I thought was very relevant to Flick's dilemma. A paper in the American Economic Journal found that heterosexual women who were promoted to CEO level in their companies were twice as likely to be divorced after three years than their male counterparts. No. That's amazing. Yeah. So why do we think that is girls, Sam?

I mean, it doesn't surprise me. The stereotypes, what's expected of women, there is a very different bar for men. So, I mean, think about the playground pickup. If you've got kids, if you see a man there, it's like, wow, dad's about to kick them out. Wow, such a great dad. And the mums stand there a chopped liver, you know. So it's the idea of what are the expectations and how women perceived what society says contextually, how we're seen in the world. And so I think it comes down to expectation. And if you're high level, wherever you are as a woman, it's difficult if you're trying to have a family, even if you're trying to have a relationship, because that power dynamic becomes a struggle. And you have to keep revisiting that to check in. Let's talk a little

bit more about that within couples, the people that you see and the individuals that you give therapy to. Do they often talk about this power dynamic? Yeah. And it starts right at the beginning because it oscillates. So one person will have maybe slightly more, someone's chasing after the other person, maybe the man's chasing after them all, the woman's chasing after the man, and then they get together and then there's kind of a, ah, where are we now? And then the power dynamic shifts. It's very rare that it's equal. And if we think about equality on some levels, it doesn't exist in the way that we want it to. Someone might be working more, someone might be doing their house duties more, whatever that looks like. And if someone becomes resentful about that, that's where all the

problems start because it's quite hard to work with resentment. You see, we've been focusing a lot on heterosexual relationships. And of course, I'm interested to know whether this power dynamic and the gender role difference is the same within gay and lesbian relationships. Do you still see this playing out in your therapeutic practice? I do, but in other ways. Oh, go on. Yeah, in other ways. So it'll be interesting if you've got, let's say, two men, and they'll talk about, you know, you always take my clothes. It sounds like a silly example,

but they'll fit in the same clothes. They'll have this. The power dynamic is still there. There's a fight on some level for individuality. There's a fight for this is me and this is you and this is us. But it still plays out and money still comes into it. Who's more successful still comes into it. So I think it's a human dynamic. I think it's an ego dynamic. On the flip side of the coin, I'm conscious of trying to bring in some balance into this dilemma and this conversation. There are going to be listeners who are in Flick's boyfriend's situation at the moment. And I have certainly been there. You know, I must admit that there's been times in my life where I felt totally sidelined by my partner's career and that I've just slipped down the list of priorities for my other half and I'm sort of at the bottom of the pile. So it's a horrible situation. It's a horrible feeling to have. Sam, how do you think that somebody can best communicate their needs when it comes to having a partner who at that moment is more successful than they are? I think it's about the root. What does it mean

for them not to be able to earn money? What does it mean for them to feel insecure? But most people don't have the words to say that. So it would be the idea of having an open conversation. What's going on for you? How are you feeling? And that can be really hard. Even that, what does this bring up for you? Why are you reacting like that? And they'll probably say, I don't even realize that I'm reacting like that what do you mean but it's quite ambiguous but it's just to explore the root cause and once it's out there it doesn't feel like this dirty thing that we're not allowed to talk about because you're right the resentment builds and then no one talks about it so then communication suffers and then the rupture becomes stronger yeah and I always think as well for men they've been told to hide their feelings and exactly what it is that they maybe want to talk

about. And you have to create that safe space where you can have discussions, awkward, uncomfortable conversations where actually, you know what, I'm going to be vulnerable and this is how I feel. And you just have to hope and understand that your partner will take it in the correct way and you can genuinely have a good, calm conversation so that you both know where each other sit? Yes. I can absolutely identify with Flick's boyfriend, actually. I mean, you know, I'm 52 now and I've been working in TV for nearly 30 years. So throughout my relationships, I've been with some people who've

been way more successful at times than I've been. I mean, I can remember my ex-boyfriend, actually, who won a BAFTA. And on the surface, I'm like, yeah, that's amazing. But at the same time, I'm thinking, it should be mine. How come I haven't got one? And I can certainly remember feeling that I was no longer good enough. I wasn't relevant. I wasn't as successful. And then feeling like I was slipping down my other half's priorities, that the relationship ended up being less important than the career. And I found that really difficult, Sam. I mean, I must admit, and I don't know what that's about, really. Well, I suppose it's about feeling valued.

And if someone's career is thriving, where does the relationship fit in that? How do we make time for that? And again, that's a conversation. Again, whether it's a date night, whether it's really being present with someone, if we feel like we're there with them and they understand us and they understand our position, we're sort of soothed. But if we feel disconnected, that makes us feel more insecure, which means the behaviours become amplified and it just keeps going on and on. Interesting. Okay, well, another thing I just want to pick up on with Flick is the fact that she mentions her partner spoke to her sister about their relationship behind Flick's back. Do you think that Flick might feel betrayed by the fact that actually he's gone straight to a family member?

Unpack that one, Scarlett. Absolutely. And I think she has every right to feel that way initially. But if he's explaining exactly why he's done that, maybe she understands. but if he's explaining exactly why he's done that maybe she understands okay maybe over the last month for example year and a half because her new job has been so stressful she's been so focused on that that maybe her partner didn't feel he could go and speak to her so he had to go and speak to someone else at least he was still offloading what it was that he was thinking but maybe he was trying to protect her because he knew that she was in a certain situation and didn't want to bother her so I'm always trying to be conscious of both sides. I don't want to straight away say,

how dare he go behind her back? That is betrayal. Because maybe it could have been that, but also, what is it from his side? Maybe he was looking out for her and thinking, she's got a lot on her plate at the moment. I don't want to have to bother her with this. So let me speak to her sister who's close to her. And maybe the sister can tell me the best way of addressing it with her. Maybe it is myself or maybe it is the sister that goes to do it. You see, Sam, we're getting into the issue of boundaries, aren't we? And I mean, my producer and I were talking at length about this. At what point is this a broken boundary?

And at what point actually could this be a desperate partner saying, you know, as Scarlett says, I need, she's not listening to me, I need to be able to talk, reach out to somebody else. As a professional, what's your feeling about this? I mean, this is a hard one because it varies. So there'll be some people that will say, you know what, I was happy they went to a family member. I was happy that it shows that they really care about me. They couldn't communicate. So they went to someone that is close to me. So I suppose it's about intentionality. What was behind it? Again, if it's to criticize or to moan, that's different. If they've gone to a family member and said, I need help. I can't connect with my partner. I can't connect with them. Can you help me? That's different. So everyone's got a different boundary.

I think what's important is that we're explicit with our partners as to what our boundary is. I think what's important is that we're explicit with our partners as to what our boundary is. So they should know where they sit, where that line is, and it varies from person to person. Well, Scarlett, light flick, you are now a busy and booked successful career woman. Now that you are single and happily single, do you worry about how you're going to juggle your very successful career with your next relationship? I do, but I worry more about finding the right guy that is not going to feel intimidated by me and what it is that I do. As a strong, independent woman, that's very career driven.

Because I will always make time for people that I need to make time for. Because I'm such a strong believer of you've got to be connected and be with that person to be able to make it work. Yes, have long distance relationships, but when you're together, make sure that that time counts and make that as often as possible, as often as is actually feasible. So you're looking for somebody who values you. Yes. Respects you. Yeah. And who's your teammate. Correct. And my cheerleader. Your cheerleader. Yes. Yeah, we all want that, don't we? Sam, do you want that? Have you got it? Yes. Love that.

Okay, so listen, the bottom line is that we need to give Flick some concrete advice because she is struggling. Can we have something that she can do today to help her situation with her other half? And perhaps something a little bit more long term as well. So if we start with what she can do today, what would you advise Scarlett? I would suggest to actually speak to your partner Flick, sit down with him, explain how you're feeling from your side and ask him to be as vulnerable as possible and as open and honest as possible about how he's feeling from his side. That would probably be my kind of offering for the short term. Long term,

you have to decide what is more important for you. You know, you're only 31, you've got this new job that you love and you should be able to enjoy it without being worried about what your partner thinks or being worried that he's not happy because you're actually having a great time and know that your career can last for so long. And unfortunately, relationships don't. So what is more important to you? I don't know how long you've been together for, but you really need to sit down and work out where do you see yourself in the next 10 years? If it's with this career that you're now starting that can take you to the moon, then go with it. If it's that you want to be in this relationship with your partner, understand that potentially

there may be more bumpy roads along the way. Well, always, always. I mean, relationships are never easy and it's never happy ever after. But let me ask Sam. So in the short term, what do you think that Flick should be doing? I agree with Scarlett. I think it's an open conversation to begin with, but I think being really clear about this is not acceptable. Talking about my career in a derogatory way in front of people is unacceptable. So being very clear about boundaries and then asking what's going on for you? Why are you doing this? How is this for you? That would be my first sort of step one. Then I'd go, okay, we have that. What are my expectations? Then a couple of weeks, we revisit it. So we come back, we have another conversation. And it's also agreed. We come back in a couple of weeks and we see how it goes.

How are you feeling? How am I feeling? And be boundaried about it so they don't have to talk about it every day. We have a conversation, we boundary it, we come back to it in two weeks. How are we feeling? What's going on? What I like about that is it's quite contractual. It's the sort of thing that you would have at work, isn't it?

So there's something about treating your relationship almost like a work contract. You've got to put the work, the effort and the work in. It's not happy ever after. Relationships are hard work. Yeah, absolutely. And I work with couples to look at it. And again, it's very unsexy as the idea of we come together. It is a business on some level.

It's a business. So we want to stay together. We want to thrive.. It's a business. So we want to stay together. We want to thrive. We want to be successful. So we have to treat it as such. So I would say keep it quite clinical, actually. In some ways, therapy is about taking the emotion out. Oh, really? So it's not always about let's explore the emotion. What's that like for you? It's also about, okay, let's take that out and be quite clinical because that serves a purpose and it's helpful.

Interesting. It is interesting. Yeah. Because when you were saying that, it's take that out and be quite clinical because that serves a purpose and it's helpful. Interesting. It is interesting, yeah. Because when you were saying that, it's making me think I'm always so good at giving advice to friends in their relationships, but I can't take my own advice. And that's because when I'm in my own situation, I'm in the emotion of it.

I'm not in the emotion of their relationship. So it's easy for me to say, no, leave him or do this or do that because I'm not actually attached to it myself. So that's really interesting. It is, isn't it? The emotions get in the way. Well, listen, thank you so much. no, leave him or do this or do that because I'm not actually attached to it myself. That's really interesting. It is, isn't it? Emotions get in the way. Well, listen, thank you so much.

I feel like I've learned so much from you both today and that we could just carry on talking for the entire afternoon. It's been utterly fascinating. Flick, if you're listening, I hope that that has been helpful for you. And please do keep in touch. Let us know because we're really keen to know actually how you're going to get on with your relationship and of course with your career. And Scarlett, I feel like this has been helpful for you as well, has it? It really has been actually. Just talking about it, which is something I don't really do and I haven't really

done and you've really helped as well, Sam. So thank you. It's been great. My pleasure. Well, listen, before we end the show, I'm going to put you on the spot Scarlett and share a couple of short dilemmas with you I'm looking for quick fire advice the type of stuff that you would say to your girlfriends okay are you ready yes okay the first one is from Lottie hi Anna it can't just be me who doesn't know how much or even if to drink at work events. I've just started a new job and I find it really difficult to kind of navigate those blurred lines between being professional and also socializing. That after work, drink at the pub is really kind of great way to get to know your colleagues. But I'm also really conscious that I don't want to end up drinking too much and making a fool of myself. What would you recommend?

Oh, dear. Okay, this is a good one. I will keep this short and sweet. So obviously being in the TV industry, you get invited to lots of events. And there were times when I was drinking way too much Prosecco or champagne at events because it's just free. And I really realized I had to rein back on that. So now I do it as though I'm driving home. So that's one or maybe two glasses of wine. That's it. It means I can cheers with everybody.

It gets me a little bit merry, but I know that I'm still fully in control of everything that's going on. So that's in order for you to stay professional? Absolutely, yeah. I think that's a really good... I'm just looking back on my own career, thinking how battered I've got so many work friends.

You see, my response was going to be, just hell yeah, just go and have the drink, have fun. You know, this is where people get to see the real you and, you know, enjoy you. But actually, I think I prefer your advice, which is always stay professional because you don't want to wake up the following morning, do you? And go, oh no, I snogged my boss. Exactly. And let it be other people that do that. And then you're the one that remembers everything because then, yeah, you've got all my boss. Exactly. And let it be other people that do that. And then you're the one that remembers everything. Because then, yeah, you've got all the insight. Oh, you're strategic, girl. You are strategic.

Thank you. Okay, here's the next one for you. This is from Sam. They're in their 30s and they're living in London. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's so bored of dating apps. I am single and I would really like to meet someone, but I just can't be bothered to put in

the time on Bumble or Tinder or Hinge or whatever people are using now. If you've got any advice, I'd love to hear it. Oh, Scarlett, how do people meet in the wild? Honestly, I think we need to get back to actually getting out and meeting people in person. Because also, you know, I know that I don't take very good pictures sometimes, but in real life, people say, Ashley Scott, you're quite attractive. So I think if we are going out and meeting people, people that maybe don't take a great photo on dating apps could look so much better in real life. And not only that, it's about the vibe for me. I don't care what you look like, but if you make me laugh and if you're friendly, if you've got a great vibe, I'm attracted to you. So we need to forget the dating apps,

get out in real life. I love you for saying that. I could not agree more. I have never been on a dating app. I don't want to be on a dating app. So lucky. And when I started dating again, I put it out there to my friends and said, listen, do you know what? I'm ready to meet somebody. Who do you know that might be a good match? So I think that old fashioned asking around friends and family and going on, you know, I'm ready to meet somebody that you think that would be good for me. I reckon that's the way forward. I have to say, when I first started dating my ex-boyfriend, Charles, and we met when we were in our early twentiess. He asked me out seven times, right? I mean, we laugh about this to this day because we're still really good friends. He asked me out

again and again. And I remember looking at him, he was six foot four. And I remember looking at him thinking, there is no way, there is no way I'm going out with you, right? But he made me laugh so much. And we stayed together for 18 years so you're right Scarlett it's not about you know flicking past somebody's photo and going

oh do I fancy him it's about the vibe with the person so you've got to meet them face to face absolutely personality is key well I've got to tell you

Scarlett this has been an eye-opening ride all round thank you so much for joining me and huge thanks as well to Sam Pennells and Kolo from the London Practice for joining me. And huge thanks as well to Sam Penelson-Colo from

the London Practice for all of your expertise too. Thanks, girls. Pleasure to be here. Thank you. Thanks, Anna. Lovely listeners. I'll be back next time with another episode. But in the meantime, if you want to be part of the podcast, then please go to itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk and leave me a voice note with your dilemma. Or you can email it can't just be me at podimo.com whether it's about love sex aging family motherhood kinks it doesn't matter nothing's off limits and remember whatever you're dealing with it really isn't just you from podimo and mags this has been it can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White.

And for Mags, it's Alice Homewood with support from Laura Williams. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free. Subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.