It Can't Just Be Me - 23: Coming out as a teenager? With Riyadh Khalaf

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Come on into this episode where we’re talking all about coming out as a teenager.   In the studio with Anna, we have the inspiring LGBTQ+ advocate, author, TV presenter and celebrity-masterchef, Riyadh Khalaf. Riyadh’s challenging, but incredibly powerful, story of coming out as a teenager to his then Irish Catholic mother and Iraqi Muslim father, means he has much wisdom to pass on to our listener today. Our dilemma is from a listener struggling to come out to her parents, whilst also dealing with grief over losing the only family member who knew she was gay and who was a great support to her. Alongside Riyadh, we have best-selling author and much-loved psychotherapist, Owen O’Kane. Owen not only generously shares his expertise but also has his own coming out story to share, having come to terms with his sexuality while training to be a priest. Anna, Riyadh and Owen have a conversation filled with warmth, laughter, pain and joy where they offer concrete advice to our listener on finding connection and acceptance, chosen families, bringing shame out into the light and, throughout it all, finding your courage.   While this episode is an inspiring listen, it does mention self-harm, suicide and a non-consensual sexual encounter. So please approach the episode with care. If you or someone you love has been affected by any of the topics covered in this episode, help is available. The NHS website contains guidance on how to access mental health support, and lists other helpful resources. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/The Samaritans also provide a safe space to call 24 hours a day at 116 123. The 24/7 Rape & Sexual Abuse Support Line run by Rape Crisis England & Wales offers support to anyone of any gender aged 16+ in England and Wales who has experienced any form of unwanted sexual behaviour. Webchat is available via the website at https://rapecrisis.org.uk, or you can call them at 0808 500 2222. Rape Crisis Scotland provides support for Scottish listeners via their website http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk or via a call to 0808 801 03 02Finally, the LGBT Foundation offers a range of services, support and information to lesbian, gay, bi and trans people. Phone: [phone] (Daily 10am-10pm) https://lgbt.foundation—Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags Creative Producers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Pulama KaufmanTheme music: Kit Milsom Executive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. Hello there, it's Anna here. And a quick warning before we begin. In this episode,

we mentioned self-harm, suicide, and a non-consensual sexual encounter. So please consider whether this is the right thing for both you and those around you. And remember, if you or someone you know has been affected by any issue that comes up in this episode, head to the show notes for a list of organisations that can support you. Despite it being 2023, a whole decade since same-sex marriage was legalised in this country, I'm sorry to say that today's dilemma is undoubtedly one that will resonate with a lot of listeners, because it's all about coming out to family and friends and worrying what their reaction will be. This dilemma was sent in by a 16-year-old girl who's struggling with not only coming out, but also grief. So let's get cracking. This is It Can't Just Be Me.

Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna.

It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children. And he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way.

If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is the cat-loving, celebrity masterchef-winning and LGBTQ plus advocate, Riyad Khalaf. His story of coming out as a teenager to his then Irish Catholic mother and Iraqi Muslim father is one of the most challenging but ultimately inspiring stories I've ever encountered. And you'll be hearing all about that later. Riyad is right at the forefront of advocating and promoting queer rights. From fronting the groundbreaking Irish TV series Growing Up Gay to publishing his go-to guide for young queer boys, he truly is a queer

rights advocate to his core. So I know he's the perfect person to offer advice for this week's dilemma. Here he is, everyone. It's Riyadh Kalaf. Riyadh Kalaf, hello and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. How are you? I'm good. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for coming into the studio to be with us today because I think your experience and advice as a gay man with a very difficult coming out story is going to be invaluable to the person who shared their dilemma with us today. So thank you. You're welcome. Well, something good has to come out of something bad, I think. That's my mantra. This is it, always. But before we get to that, at the start of every episode,

I like to ask my guests to share their very own, it can't just be me dilemma. So Riyadh, come on, what have you got? I'm just going to preface this by saying I see myself as a very nice person, right? As an Irish person, we have to be, otherwise we're kicked out. But there's one thing that gets my goat and it happens every time I travel around London. It is the slow walker, the left-hand side of the escalator stander, the loiterer, and just overall annoying individual. And what happens to you? I get this, it's a physical reaction. It starts from my stomach, goes right up my neck. I get patchy, red. No.

Yeah. So it's a rage. Yeah, we need a course. Before you can enter the boundaries of Greater London, we take you into a room, we put a spotlight on you, and you have a blow-by-blow account of what you can and can't do. This is how you should behave. It's etiquette of London. Move. Yeah. I'm totally with you on this. But even the nicest of people, there I go again calling myself that, can be pushed to points of rage.

Which is why I'm thrilled to say that we do have a bona fide expert in the room to psychoanalyse the pair of us. He's joined us previously on the show and now he's back to offer his unparalleled psychotherapeutic advice. It's only Owen O'Kane. Hello. For those of you listening who don't know, Owen is a psychotherapist and former NHS mental health clinical lead with over 25 years experience. He is also a gay man for what it's worth. So he's in the perfect position to help the 16 year old who's emailed in to the show today. Now, for reasons that will become obvious, she's asked that we keep her identity hidden. So our producer is reading this one out. And after that, we'll be referring to her as Nikki. So here goes.

Hi, Anna. I'm 16 and I've recently started a relationship with a girl I teach dancing with. A lot of our friends know and her dad's a gay, so are really, really supportive. But I'm just really nervous to tell my parents as they aren't as open and accepting. Every time I go to talk about it with them, I always get too anxious and back out. I told my girlfriend that it might just be easier to stop being together rather than telling my parents, but neither of us want that. I really just don't know what to do. My anxiety is getting even worse than normal because I'm so worried about how they'll react. What makes it worse is that my granddad

died a few weeks ago and he was the only person in my family who knew. He was really good about it and told me to tell people when the time was right. When I try to talk about it with people, it makes me miss my granddad more because I just wish he was there to help and tell me what to say. Do you have any advice on how I should tell them or what to do if they aren't accepting once I tell them? I've always found you really inspiring, so I really would appreciate your advice. First of all, Nikki, I'm so sorry to hear about the passing of your granddad. I mean, it sounds like he was a really special man to you. So I can understand that you're really missing him. So I'm sorry to

hear about that. Now, boys, it seems to me that there are two elements to this dilemma. The first is Nikki's question about coming out to her family. And the second is really about grief. about coming out to her family. And the second is really about grief. Riyadh, if I can start with you, I can imagine that you can identify with Nikki's anxiety here when it comes to coming out. Just tell us about your coming out story, because it really is quite extraordinary. Nikki, the first thing I'd say to you is a huge congrats in finding who you are. Sometimes that takes people decades. You're 16 years old and you've kind of had this aha moment. So give yourself a pat on the back. You've come out to the hardest person ever, and that's you. So I grew up in a mixed household, Irish mother, Iraqi father. I was brought up Catholic, but dad was still identifying as Muslim. And it was lovely

because we had different types of food, different types of culture. I'd go to the mosque with him sometimes. I'd go to church sometimes. And although I wasn't very religious, it was just nice to have that sort of mix in my world. And then as I started to figure out what the difference in me was,

always knew I was different. And then when I started to realise around, you know, the beginning of puberty that, oh, Aladdin is fucking hot. And Jasmine is annoying. And Jesus is hot too. Yeah, I mean, come on, just put a couple of Doc Martens on him and a pair of earrings and he'd fit right in in shortage. He's fit. Yeah, I started to freak out because I'm beginning to figure out who and what I am and what I desire. I don't like it because society at large maybe is telling me that this is

wrong. And because of my dad's background and stories I'd heard in the press, things like honour killings were very much in my mind. God, that must have been terrifying. I have this gorgeous, warm, amazing, sensitive Iraqi father who is my best friend. I go fishing with him every weekend. We're mad about the natural world.

We laugh at the same things. And I am for him, as a refugee, I am for him his greatest achievement. And now I am going to have to tell him that I am this sick, disgusting, flawed thing, gay. I know he's going to think it's his fault. How can I do that to him? How can I break this man's heart while I'm still feeling shame about what I am? So I held it in for years and years. It totally destroyed my secondary education couldn't focus major anxiety

dealing with it on my own became an introvert became a really shit son and shit friend oh really? oh yeah I lost the essence of who I was I was a shell of a person

it was still Riyadh and little flickers of Riyadh would come through but for the most part I kept myself to myself I even had a friend come up to me once when we were walking from school to the bus stop and he said well you're always looking down why are you looking down is it because you're sad or because you like nature and you're looking at the leaves and that always stuck with me and I'm actually getting emotional talking about it now and I said I'm looking at the leaves because I like the leaves because I

had shame about the shame and the that I had given it away I thought I had it down the act I'm fine hidden what can I just ask what your parents were doing in the middle because they must have seen their son looking down looking down the leaves becoming more and more withdrawn did they think this is just a teenage phase or did they realize that maybe he's hiding something? I think I was actually the best at keeping it from them and what helped was that they knew what actually made me happy. It's so weird that you're scared of them but also their company for me was paramount because they were my best friends. I grew up in quite a rough council estate. And because of my inherent femininity, that was attacked. And so I was kept inside and they became my friends, my best friends. And so they just thought when I was acting out, it was just hormones.

You know, that's just how teenagers are. It came to a head when my mother found porn on the family computer. How stupid was I? And let me tell you, what she found was so adorable in hindsight. I'm not Googling this stuff now. It was hot hunk topless. Oh, really? Jock big muscles. I'm basically looking for what I could see on the Calvin Klein boxes in the supermarket. Do you know what I mean?

And how old were you, would you say? 15, 16. Okay. So your mum then got the clue. She approached me and she was like,

do you have anything you want to tell me? I'm like, no. Well, are you sure? You know you can tell me anything and I'll always love you. And I was like, oh God.

Oh no. It's that. And I knew it was the computer I just knew so anyway an hour had passed of me with my head in my hands just answering with grunts like are you this no are you that and then she said are you are you gay I was like no I think I'm I'm biars, hugs everything will be okay. She took the day off work I took the day off school the next day. She took me to the Japanese gardens

of all places Howe Camp and we talked it out. But the agreement was made there and then that dad would be kept out of this secret. Because she knew

and you knew how he would react. It actually wasn't that we knew it was that we didn't know. Oh. And we were afraid of what we didn't know. We kept it in for about nine months. And in that time, my acting out as a bad teenager became worse.

Because I preempted that this man who I loved was on the cusp of being a horrible, horrible person to me. Because he was about to find out what I really was. So if I could get ahead of it and pre-hate him, then I will be protecting my emotions when he does find out. Because I won't be sad because I hate him already. Wow. When he disowns me, I've beat you to the punch, so fuck off. Yeah.

I don't need you, Dad. Which is such a horrible thing to go through. And I never spoke about that to my mom. I just sort of did it subconsciously. And he couldn't understand. And our relationship broke down. And it was really, we no longer went fishing. We no longer spoke, really. It was just horrible. And my mom had reached a breaking point because she was holding this secret between herself and her husband, the two men that she loved most in the world. And then she said, I think it's time to tell your dad. And I'm looking at her going, shut up. And he goes, tell me what? I was like, nothing. And then I tried to say the words and I was totally paralyzed. Physically, my mouth wouldn't say I'm gay because

I still had shame and fear. And I had a school book on the countertop and I just I pulled it over to me I ripped the back page out of it and I wrote I'm gay on it and then I slid that little scrap over to him and he looked at it and time stood still it just I knew my life had changed forever from that second in that moment and I couldn't take it back and so he looked at it it must have been only about 10 seconds he came over and hugged me

and he said it's okay I love you we're going to be okay we'll fix this we'll fix this that's the thing I was like

that doesn't really fit what I was thinking I might hear you didn't need to add that bit it was a week later the thing. I was like, that doesn't really fit what I was thinking I might hear. You didn't need to add that bit. It was a week later that he had completely stopped talking to me, couldn't make eye contact with me. He became this ghost of a man and he would just go to work and just sit there all day. And then my mom said, go out to the garden, bring my beer and have a chat to him. And I was terrified again. But I had this newfound kind of righteousness. I had done the hard work.

I was actually feeling quite good because now I had no secret. Yeah. So you didn't burden yourselves, but then in a sense burdened your father. Yeah. So I went out to him and I spoke to him and I probably said what I shouldn't have said. I tried to accelerate the acceptance process by just handing it to him. I wasn't as gentle as I could have been. I was like, look, this is who I am. One day I'm going to bring a guy back here home and I want you to embrace him and love him as I love him. And I'm

going to marry him and he'll be part of the family. And that's that. And then he completely physically broke down to his knees, crying, wailing, like someone had died. Me, you know, hypothetically, his son. And then we found out years later that the night that he first found out with the note, he had contemplated taking his own life. And he went downstairs looking for pills. He changed his mind and it didn't happen, stairs looking for pills. He changed his mind and it didn't happen, thank God. But that's the point that he was at. So my approach to people coming out is you've got to be as careful with your own mental health as the people that you're telling, because they're getting this news instantaneously and they may not have any clue it's coming whereas you as the queer person has likely had years to mull over it think about it process it begin to accept it and turn shame to

pride yeah gentle lovely organic process it's quick for them oh and if i can just bring you in on this on a personal level i know that coming out was something you struggled with as a Northern Irish gay young man as well. I mean, in some ways it was a bit more straightforward. I just had the Catholic thing to deal with. I didn't have two religions. I was in a monastery at the time. So I'd gone into training to be a priest in my late teens and early twenties. And then suddenly, you know, the coin dropped.

I kind of worked out I was gay and I thought I need to kind of start dealing with this and coming to terms with it. So I literally left the monastery and came back home. Now I wasn't ready to come out at this stage. I wasn't planning to come out. Because if you think about it, I'd just come out of a monastery. So my parents thought they had a potential pope

on their hands at that stage. You would look great in the hat. Absolutely. So their expectations were super high. And I'd done all of the good boy stuff. I was a pretty easy kid. I wasn't difficult and I was good. And I always kept the peace.

And I didn't want to bring any shame and all of that stuff. So I hadn't really thought about coming out. So my brother said, do you want to tell me, you know, why haven't you told me? And I thought, he can't know. My brother then said, do you want to tell me, you know, why haven't you told me? And I thought, he can't know. My brother then said, I know. And I said, you know what? And he said, you're gay. He said his wife knew. And if his wife knew, he said, how long is it going to be before mum and dad find out? He said, you better tell them. So within 24 hours of coming out of the monastery, I had to sit them both down and tell them together.

Wow. So you can imagine the adjustment in their heads. You know, it's a big thing to go from thinking, God, we've got this potential bishop, pope in our hands, to then, no, actually, you've got a gay son. Which is a huge point of pride in an Irish town back then. Oh my God, massive. My son is training to be… My son's going to be a priest. My son's gay. Completely different narrative altogether.

Gosh. So I sit them down. I said, look, I've got something to tell a priest, to my son's gay, completely different narrative altogether. So I sit them down and I said, look, I've got something to tell you. And they both were looking at me and my mum said, what is it? And then she did this list and she said, tell me you're not taking drugs. And I'd just come out of a monastery and I was thinking, well, no. What kind of monastery is this? It sounds incredible. Tell me you're not on drugs. No, I'm not on drugs. You're not dealing drugs.

No, I'm not dealing drugs. You're not dealing drugs. No, I'm not dealing drugs. She said, this is a brilliant Northern Irish. Tell me you haven't met a Protestant. No. Stop. And then all of this, are you in debt? This whole list of horrific things that I could be doing.

And then at the end, there was this massive pause. And then she just went really quiet and she said, you're gay are you they turned out to be incredible you know when they got time and space and stuff in fact when my mom died i didn't know this until after she died someone called during the week and um i picked up the call and said oh um your mom was my helpline support and i said what what helpline support. And I said, what helpline support? And she said, oh, the gay parents switchboard or something. Oh, wow. So I come off, and this was during my mum's funeral, and I said to my dad, what is this gay parents switchboard thing? And he said, oh, she was doing that for about 10 years.

Never told you? Never told me once. And she would spend hours, like, with gay parents talking to him and stuff. And I never knew about that. What was your mum called? Kate. Kate. Yeah, I never got the that. What was your mum called? Kate. Kate. Yeah, I never got the chance to talk to her.

Thanks, Kate. God bless you, Kate. She's brilliant, complete ally in the end. Well, Nikki says she wants to talk to her family, but that she gets nervous and then backs out. And according to Stonewall, the LGBTQ plus rights charity, only 40% of LGBT young people have an adult at home that they're able to confide in. So what steps do you think Nikki could take to start preparing her family, given what we've

said about, look, this is potentially a real shock for them? I think her granddad's advice was sound, actually, that lame word he said, when you're ready. And I think that's a key thing, when she's ready. Because look think that's the key thing was when she's ready. Because look, you hear it all the time in queer culture about being proud, not apologising, making yourself known to the world unapologetically. And there's something powerful in that and something in that that I totally agree with. However, she's had a bereavement. She's anxious. She's terrified that they're going to reject her. It would be really foolish to discount all of that because that's equally important. You know, her well-being, her mental well-being is important.

And if she's not ready, then that's absolutely fine. Don't push it. Because I think ultimately it took me a long time to come to grips with who I was. And I think, you know, she may need a bit of time to work it out and to make sense of it. And I think when you're steady in your own skin and you know who you are, then the rejections matter less.

Absolutely. From other people. So I think, you know, steady your platform, firstly. And that's not denying who you are. It's not apologising. But I think it's doing it on your terms rather than feeling the pressure to come out because when she's ready, she will tell them. And look, people who love you will eventually,

you know, they'll be around you and they'll be fine with it. It doesn't mean that you're going to get an instantaneous warm welcome. It doesn't. And I think that doesn't mean that they don't love you and they don't care about you. I think it's just they need time. And can we talk about chosen families? Because in a way they're as important, aren't they, and valuable as biological families. So where else could Nikki get that support, do you think, in terms of steadying her platform? I mean, Riyadh, in your case, did you have other friends or other gay boys or girls that could support you? up becoming a career just by accident. But I would go online and I'd watch these American gay young boys in the college dorms just being completely unapologetically themselves and

outwardly identifying as gay. And I think just seeing for the first time that you can be that thing and happy, be that thing and have a mom and a dad that love you, even if it's someone else. Just that in the world it exists is enough to give you a huge boost. And if it's not online, then you can go to spaces where people like you are. Pride marches, you can go to LGBT sort of social groups. There's book clubs, there's walking groups, and you have a girlfriend. That took me years to find a fella. Hang on to that girlfriend if you love her. Don't let go of her because you're not telling your parents. Every individual in your life that is going to love and support you through this process is vital.

And she sounds like a really great girlfriend, and so do her dads. So lean on them, and they'll be there for you. She's thinking about breaking up with her girlfriend because she's so scared about telling her family. So, Owen, as a psychotherapist, what is that about? And what would you be saying to Nikki in response to that? All of the descriptions Nikki's given her around shame. You know, I think shame is the one thing that we often don't talk about when it comes to sexuality but most people are shamed into believing they're wrong they're

sinful they're bad they're not good enough they're going to let the family down and i think that's the stuff that you really got to work on because you know one of the things that no one said to me when i was younger was that there's nothing wrong with you because i thought there was something wrong with me genuinely shame can't exist when you bring it out into the light. And I really believe that, you know, it thrives in the dark, but when you bring it out into the light, you know, it disappears. It can't survive there. So in whatever way you're comfortable, find ways of bringing it into the light.

Find the people that you trust, you know. But more importantly, when you find the internal demons, which are the voices in our head, our own critic, coming out with judgment and shaming, you know, but more importantly, when you find the internal demons, which are the voices in our head, our own critic coming out with judgment and shaming, you know, that's a narrative. It's not factual. Yes. So just be mindful that there might be that internal critic who's having a field day at the moment, telling you that you're rubbish or you're shit, that you're not good enough. That's very common, but it doesn't mean that it's a truth you finish the drinks you and your date have said your goodbyes and you're immediately on the phone to your best friend

i like messaged all my friendship groups you're never gonna believe what's just happened to me from potamo and 2020 this is first date the podcast i'm cc coleman and i'm frankie bridge we'll be bringing you the most amazing bizarre and heartwarming dating stories he's like this girl is crazy it's first dates the podcast get it wherever you're listening to this or visit listen to firstdates.com we get it life gets busy luckily with peloton tread you can still get the challenging workouts you crave only have 10 minutes minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute tread workouts. No matter your goals or time,

Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. Well, let's talk about Nikki's anxiety because you're absolutely right to say you need to challenge those thoughts because just because you're having the thoughts doesn't mean that they're facts, as you say. All tells us that 61% of lesbian, gay and bi young people have self-harmed and 22% have attempted suicide, which just is shocking to me. This is serious. When I discovered those figures, I was astounded. 61%. So firstly, why? Why is it still such a shameful thing in 2023? You've got to remember you've got like years of

almost transgenerational shame that's been passed along that hasn't gone away so even though younger generations are much more fluid and open you've got to remember the families that they're coming from still hold very strong opinions potentially on what's right or wrong or good or bad. With shame comes this kind of internal persecutory narrative. So when you look at self-harming or any kind of dysfunctional behaviours, you know, they often come with this persecutory attack on self. I always get really angry when someone said to me recently doing an interview, why do we need gay pride? Why don't we have straight pride? And, for goodness sake. And I will often quote those. I'll say because, you know,

it's not criminal to be straight in most parts of the world. In fact, all of the world. It's not a criminal sense to be straight. In like 70 countries it's criminalised still. That blows my mind. Yeah. That it is still criminalised. In these countries. And in some

of them you can be killed as well. It's not just be locked up, it's be, you know. Yeah, yeah, murdered. So when people ask about why do you have pride, because that's why we need to have pride, because we need to foster a belief. Because we exist. And actually we need to foster the tolerance, as you say,

that we're safe. And actually if there's one teenager who goes to their first pride and that event ends up making them love themselves to a point where they'll stop self-harming and they'll accept their identity, that whole million person event is worth it. I had it at 16, my first Pride in Dublin City with my only friend who really knew I was gay. And she was my rock. We went and I saw a very famous drag queen who I'm sure you know, Owen Panty Bliss,

give a rousing speech about identity and acceptance. And a fire was lit in my belly. I went from being a scared, shy, self-hating, maybe gay guy to the beginning of an activist. I was like, can I swear? Of course. Fuck this. I said, fuck this and how you're treating us. Let's get out

in the street. We're marching for marriage. We're marching to stop hate crime. And then I started to go to all these protests pre coming out. It was a righteous anger and it was great. And that led to acceptance. But what I'd say is, I think the reason why so many young queer people are self harming, are struggling with their mental health and even going so far as to take their own life, is the realisation that you're different happens so young. You haven't had any life experience to be able to go, hang on, put the brakes on, let's think about this. It's visceral, it's immediate, it's frightening. And then the shame piece comes in. And because the shame is so connected to a part of you that you can't change and you're scared of telling anyone, you've got to deal

with it alone. So maybe actually, in a sense, just thinking about what you're saying there, Riyadh, is that the real killer here, regardless of whether you're gay, straight, whatever, Regardless of whether you're gay, straight, whatever, the real killer is shame. I used to run LGBT therapy groups years ago in the NHS, and we'd probably have about 15, 20 people in the group. You would get people right across the board. But the interesting thing was, you'd get all of the usual people feeling anxious, a bit low, self-esteem issues, all of the usual stuff. But you always, always, always got shame. Never, ever worked with a client, you know, from queer background or who hasn't had shame.

And it's so deep rooted from such a young age. At 32 years old, I've written a book about being gay and I've done all these docs. Like it's my, it's part of my world, my job. I still have shame. all these docs, like it's my, it's part of my world, my job. I still have shame. And my battle against shame is daily. And even the whole thing about coming out, the fact that we have to come out in itself is a, it's a huge issue. Isn't it? Not just once, because, you know, I still have moments when I have got to come out again, which is interesting. I was on holiday recently with my other half and it was a really mixed bag of people and they genuinely couldn't work out if we were mates or brothers. Oh, God. And this conversation came up thinking, oh my God, you guys are so alike.

And I thought I could feel this kind of knot in my stomach. The anxiety of having to say actually we're married. Oh, God. And I kind of thought this is really interesting like even at this point in my life and Mark and I have been together 25 plus years and I thought this is just like it's a constant coming out and that's the anxiety thing and I think that's what anxiety is so if you look at anxiety as a definition it's an intolerance of uncertainty so it's the not knowing so it's always on the watch out for the not knowing

what's going to come next or how someone's going to react. So when I hear Nikki talking about feeling anxious, that's really common because she doesn't know what the reaction is going to be. So of course, you're going to feel anxious about that. What should she do, Owen? If her anxiety is getting worse, if her anxiety is getting out of control, what should she do? If her anxiety is getting worse, if her anxiety is getting out of control, what should she do? I mean, look, my key thing with anxiety is it's not an enemy. People treat anxiety like it's a bad thing.

Anxiety is a protective mechanism. So it's a part of you that thinks it's helping you out. So when any of us become anxious, we've got this part of us that will come up quite strongly and it will create stories and it will create narratives and a means to protect you so for Nikki for example she may be having a lot of thoughts about what might happen what could go wrong what the future might look like that doesn't mean that that's what's going to happen it could be that her anxious brain is creating possible stories yeah as a means of protecting her so what I'd say is like where when the mind's on overdrive and the stories are being created, they're just stories. You cannot think your way out of an anxious state. So when you're in a state of anxiety, your threat brain is activated. And when you're in a state of threat, you can't be rational. So I often say when I'm working with people who have got anxiety, you always start

with the body. You'll hold anxiety in your body. Most people do. So the key thing is to work out where you're holding the anxiety in your body and do whatever it takes, if it's breath, meditation, exercise. You know, I don't get over prescriptive about it. Just find ways of kind of de-stressing the physiological tension in the body, because when you do that, you send a message to the brain that then allows that part of the threat brain to deactivate and then you can activate your rational brain so there are really simple pragmatic things that you can do to turn the volume down on anxiety every technique in the book is wasted if it doesn't start with the body interesting yeah it's fascinating i really believe that and if if you do find your anxiety

gets bad or it's unmanageable or if the kind of bad days are outnumbering the good days, always go speak to your doctor. There's a lot of help and support out there. So never hesitate contacting them. Thank you for that. Moving on, let's just talk about the second part of her issue, really, which is the grief. You know, she's lost her granddad and the one confident that she had in her family. So grief is universal. Grief is crushing. Beyond the big steps of slowly coming to terms with somebody that you really love no longer being around, what are the small steps that we can all do day to day to tackle grief? And I mean, Riyadh, I don't know enough about your story. Have you lost anybody? Yes. Yeah, my grandmother. Okay. She was very close and it wasn't so long ago.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that. What small steps then do you think that Nikki could take every day just to alleviate the pain of having lost her granddad? I can only speak from my own experience and that's not ignoring the feeling. If it becomes overwhelming, then maybe, you know, go off and meditate and do whatever makes you feel centered again. But I think actually experiencing it and becoming familiar with the reality that they are gone. But one, this might be pseudoscience. I don't know. When I think about my grandmother and the fact that she's gone, I get sad.

What actually makes me happy is thinking about her DNA and the fact that she is alive. That she's in you. In me. Yeah. And I can look in the mirror every day and I can see bits of her in my face. So, you know, the gift that she gave the world by having the children that she had and then her grandchildren, that continues on. that she had, and then her grandchildren, that continues on. Reminiscing about nice stories with friends and family, people who knew her, speaking to her.

You know, you don't have to be a religious person to be soulful. You know, I'll often ask her for help, and I'm completely atheist. And I'll feel signs, and they could be made up in my head, but my God, or my whatever, does it help me when I feel this sort of me and her connection? I got you, you got me. And no one can take that away. That helps. That's perfect. Thank you.

And just finally on this main dilemma with Nikki, for any adults listening, and we're talking teachers, friends, relatives, how can they reach out and support a young person if they suspect that there may be a kid in a similar position to Nicky? What would you say? I think the key thing is non-judgment. You know, it's the one thing above everything. I mean, most people just need to be heard. You know, they just need someone with them who will be alongside them without the judgment, without the criticism, without the opinion. I think it's one of the most powerful things.

There's another stat from Stonewall, I think it is, and it talks about just having one accepting adult in a young queer person's life can reduce their chances of anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicide, incredibly. I don't know the exact figure, but it shocked me how high that figure was. One accepting adult. So if you are someone who believes that you've got a young person in your life, be it a student, child, grandchild, I see it as a gift that you could be that one person.

Well, it's incumbent on us all, isn't it? The responsibility of, you know, we hold young people in our arms, really, don't we? In our hands, the future. And as you say, it just takes one person to say, I hear you, I see you. It's okay. one of these young people that are in your life might be LGBTQ+. Let them know that you're there completely, unjudgmentally, whatever they need to speak to you about. I would say don't approach them and ask them, are you blank? Because they may not be ready. And you might be pushing them out that door of coming out

before they've had that moment to get over their shame and find some sort of acceptance in themselves. So if you just say, my door is open for you to walk through and offer me some information about yourself. And when you do, I will listen without judgment. So you make the kind of the offering kind of broad, but pointed in terms of I'm here unconditionally. And then also when they do come to you or if they do come to you with it, try to listen maybe more than give advice because, you know, that's what they need, as Owen said. They just need someone to go. I get it. And you're not sick. And guess what? I'm still your teacher and I want to be or still your mom and I want to be. That's completely transformative to a young brain.

It's a brilliant point. And I think, too, it's about your job is not to try and fix someone. You're not there to fix. I think non-judgment has to come with the action of non-judgment, which is you're not there to direct, you're not there to fix, you're not there to make it better. You're there to be alongside. And that's very different okay

so i want to leave nikki with some concrete advice albeit that we have talked a lot around this and i think it's been amazing but she wants to know specifically how to approach the conversation with her family so riad i know you've written a whole chapter about this in your book but what would you say to nikki about approaching this first of all make I know you've written a whole chapter about this in your book, but what would you say to Nikki about approaching this? First of all, make sure that you've found yourself and you're proud of who you are. Don't rush through the process. Recruit as many loving supporters in your world around you pre-coming out. Tell them what your plans are. Bring them with you if you feel that will help. Bring them with you if you feel that will help.

Think about what your parents' reaction may be and maybe do some light preparation around that in terms of where you may want to go afterwards to have somewhere to go that night and the following nights. Think about the coming out experience from their point of view. They're getting this information fresh. So be gentle and don't go in with, I'm gay, I'm blank. Maybe give them a prelude, a pre-story about how you've come to this point. Give them context about how you've realised so that they're

more likely to get it. Look after yourself in the following days and weeks. Don't put too much pressure on yourself with things like exams or work or other anxieties in your life. You've just done something that is going to change your life for the better forever, most likely for the better forever. And you've joined an international community of hundreds of millions. And that is a huge gift. Connect with your community online, in social spaces, at pride marches, at protests, if you can. And get ready for what will hopefully be a lovely journey.

Well, let's talk about that lovely journey finally, because I want to leave Nikki on a beautiful, positive note. Both of your lives have changed for the better, undoubtedly, since you both came out. Obviously, Owen, now you're married and you've been with your partner for 25 years. And Riyadh, you have written books on this, you podcast regularly, you've got a wonderful life, you've got a great relationship with your dad now. So what does Nikki have to look forward to, please, Owen? I think I do want to premise it by saying, look, you know, keep hold of the fact there is nothing wrong with you in those darker moments when you think, oh, what's wrong with me? And you're starting to question there is nothing wrong with you in those darker moments when you think oh what's wrong with me and you're starting to question there is nothing wrong with you those parts of

you that you've described struggle with your anxiety your loss your shame go to those parts of you don't abandon them go to them constantly and make sure you look after them because that's what's going to move you forward and remember as well that this period of time that's difficult at the moment is a period of time you know all of our struggles are temporary. You know, they're never permanent situations. So hold on to that and remember that you have a choice to your grateful life. Don't let the internal stuff get in the way of that. And sometimes that means that you've got to dig deep and you've got to be courageous. But, you know, certainly being courageous has been what's moved my life forward in the most incredible way. So find your courage.

Oh, I love that. Find your courage. Yes. That sounds like a card, doesn't it? It does, but I'm buying it. And Ridd, what would you say in terms of what she's got to look forward to? Oh, I mean, look, you have a gift of finding out who you are early doors. It is a transformative thing. It is hard. It is scary

sometimes. But for the hard work you're putting in now to figure it all out, the joy on the other side, the people that you'll meet, the events you'll go to, and the awareness of yourself is going to be off the charts. I am delighted that I was given this gift. I never knew it was a gift until I figured it out. You're having to dig deeper into who you are than a straight or cisgender person maybe will ever have to. That's true. So what comes from that is a greater appreciation of the world around you,

the small things. You know, when I go to a simple walk in a valley in Ireland or a lake, I appreciate everything fully, hugely, deeply, because there was a point in my life where I might not have been here. And that's the whole thing of the pain and the horrible bits, actually.

If you manage them and you work through them, all the good bits are even better again. Nicky, I hope you're listening to this and I hope that we've been helpful. Take the gift, as Riyad and Owen have both said. Please let us know how you get along. And in the meantime, we're all sending you a very big gay audio hug. Yeah.

Now, Riyad and Owen, I'm not done with you just yet. I have two more quickfire dilemmas to put to you. So this first one is also on the topic of sexuality. It's from a woman who emailed in anonymously. So we're going to be referring to her as Gemma. Hi, Anna. I have identified as a lesbian for the better part of my adult life. I've been dating women since high school and can genuinely say I love being with women. I don't have much experience with men except one non-consensual encounter in my early 20s. As I've gotten older, I think my curiosity has also grown.

I have some really amazing friends that will let me ask silly questions like, is a penis more like a cucumber or a carrot? And they try to answer based on their experiences. Then I started watching Naked Attraction, and I think it's made my curiosity grow even more. Now I'm questioning, am I really gay? Do I want to be with a man? Am I just curious?

Is this hormones? And I'm feeling guilty about having these thoughts as I have been in a relationship with my partner for over six years. How is this fair to her? It can't just be me, right? Well, Gemma, I have to say, if naked attraction has taught you anything, I hope it's that a penis can be carrot-shaped, cucumber-shaped, and everything in between.

Now, Riyadh, as a person who's well used to talking about sexual identity, what would your quick response be to Gemma here? I would say, you know, labels can be just as damaging and limiting as they can be helpful. And it sounds like this lesbian label that you've had for yourself at one point was probably very helpful to, you know, quickly tell people, here's what I am, who I am. But the minute it stops being helpful, I say bye. Not bisexual. I say bye-bye.. I say bye bye.

You heard it here first. Hey, you're looking pretty good there, Anna. It's nice breasts again, isn't it? Oh yeah, girl. Is that jumper? No, I say this is why I love the identity of queer, the word queer, because it's kind of a blanket thing. You're part of something bigger, but it's not limiting. And there's a fluidity to it. And you don't have to go, here's who I am. You know, I think the most important thing is this relationship that you

have with your girlfriend. And maybe it's time to have a conversation and talk about these feelings in an open, gentle way, but understand that it might be sensitive for her and difficult for her to hear this. But, you know, you've not acted on it. You've not cheated. You're just having feelings. That's it, it's feelings and it's curiosity. And let me tell you, your girlfriend has definitely looked at a hot chick on the tube and had feelings. All you're doing is having feelings about another gender as well. So communication, communication, communication, you're going to be fine. Like go over the labels and just be. Now, the next one is from Tom. And this is a very different one. He's asking for advice

around how to spend less time on his phone. Here we go. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who spends a ridiculous amount of time at night scrolling on my phone when I should be sleeping I've tried everything, I've tried putting my phone across the room, I've tried timers, I've tried switching it off but it's got to the point where it's really affected my day and I'm really tired through the day and I just want to know if you've got any advice for this Oh my god, the phone We're all guilty of it I know, the screens, it really can feel impossible to peel your eyes away from screens,

in particular phones. And there is an addictive element, isn't there? There's a real clear correlation between negative mental well-being and overuse of phones. So I think that's becoming clearer and clearer. I think in a situation like this, I often think about if you become dependent on anything, so if you're scrolling constantly, more than often people do this because they're trying to soothe

or they're trying to feel better or they're trying to quieten something that's going on within them. So, you know, as a therapist, I'd always be thinking about, okay, what is it you're running from? What are you trying to distract from? What's the purpose and function of scrolling? What has that given you? Because you would find, if I were chatting i would find something there will be a purpose and a meaning in the scrolling and then what you aim to do is okay that's not solving the problem you're just maintaining it so what you do is you'd work on gradually not just kind of putting it on

the other end of the room i'd be thinking we'd be working and getting the phone out of the room i see so effectively you're saying to Tom, look, there is an addictive quality to this because you are trying to soothe something within you. It's serving a purpose. It's been used as a function, I mean, I would say unquestionably, to deal with something that's gone on emotionally.

I love this. This is fascinating. So Tom, if you are listening, then basically the advice is, what are you trying to replace? By using your phone, what is it in the real world that you're trying to replace? What are the feelings that you're trying to soothe, is what the boys are saying. And then you need to find ways of replacing that and addressing those feelings. Or, you know, what are you trying to avoid?

Yeah, what are you trying to avoid? Exactly. you know, what are you trying to avoid? Yeah, what are you trying to avoid? Exactly. Riyadh, Owen, thank you so much for being here, for being queer, and for offering such excellent advice on today's show. Although there is still work to do,

which we've acknowledged, we are a tolerant society. And actually, it's people like you guys who are instrumental in helping to make those positive changes. So thank you very much. Thank you for supporting young LGBTQI queer people. I'll leave both of your details in the show notes so listeners can continue to stay up to date with you. Thanks so much.

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having us. It's been like therapy for me. So I love talking about it. Thank you. I will send you an invoice. I love talking about it. Thank you. I will send you an invoice.

From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Palama Kaufman. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts. We get it.

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