It Can't Just Be Me - 25: Mental-load, work and motherhood? With Sophia Webster

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

Today’s dilemma is from an entrepreneur and mum to two young children. She’s finding it increasingly frustrating that the responsibilities of parenting aren’t split equally between her and her male partner. It’s a cliche she’s always been keen to avoid, so she wants to know what practical steps she can take to redress the balance in her relationship.Cue iconic shoe designer, entrepreneur, and mum to five – Sophia Webster. Sophia has found a way to make this seemingly impossible balancing act work, although she admits that it isn’t always easy and she doesn’t have everything sorted, by any means. Anna and Sophia are joined by psychotherapist, author, podcaster and parenting specialist, Anna Mathur. Together, they discuss navigating the career and motherhood jigsaw puzzle; feeling “mum guilt;” and Sophia shares how she and her husband manage to work together, live together, and parent together, all at the same time. And, naturally, there’s also a lot of talk about shoes! …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for regular updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, you lot. It's me, Anna, and welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. This week, we are so ready to dive into the messy world of juggling parenthood with work and how to split the load equally in a relationship. Now, we know that lots of you identify with this topic. And personally, I don't know anyone with kids, a career, and a relationship who's managed to get that balance right, or not easily at least. So today's dilemma is from an entrepreneur who is also a mum. She's finding that the physical and mental load of parenting isn't split equally between her and her male partner. And she feels like she's living a bit of a female role cliche, whereas her partner doesn't

appear to struggle in the same way we'll be serving up some concrete advice for our lovely listener as well as asking why as women we keep having this conversation and what can be done to change it buckle up it's going to be an interesting one hi anna hey anna hey anna hi anna hey an, Anna. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children, and he doesn't. I have feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby.

And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? In the studio with me today is the iconic fashion designer, entrepreneur, and parent, Sophia Webster. Her simply gorgeous shoe designs are what you may know her for best,

and have been worn by Oprah, Beyonce, Michelle Obama, Rihanna, and JLo. The list goes on. It's incredible. Now, Sophia could not be more familiar with the dilemma we're talking about today because not only is she a wildly successful businesswoman, but she has three daughters, a son, and a stepson. She also runs her business harmoniously with her husband. Gasp. In her recent book, Oh My Gosh, I Love Your Shoes, she writes candidly about how she juggled a new business alongside parenting. So this is a woman who knows what she's talking about. Here she is, everyone. It's Sophia Webster. Sophia Webster, welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Firstly, how are you? And secondly, I need to see your

shoes immediately, please. So lift up. Let me see. There you go. Oh my word. Can I just say, for those of you listening, what I can describe here is a beautiful, patent sort of ankle length boot, square toe, chunky heel, and also embellished embellished with amazing crystals crystal buckle yeah oh thank you I mean the thing is you must be so used to this you're like oh yeah okay I've just got my patent boots on today so but for the likes of me it's like oh my god this is Cinderella stuff yeah that's why I called my book oh my gosh I love your shoes because it's like the phrase that I mean, I hear it a lot, but also my customers and friends that have got my shoes on,

they're like, oh, you know, I got stopped today on the tube or in a bar or wherever. Oh my gosh, I love your shoes. It's like a real conversation starter. It really is, isn't it? And what an amazing thing for you, the fact that you are such an iconic designer and people do stop the women in industry who are wearing your shoes going oh my god I love your shoes I mean what what what an amazing legacy yeah seeing people wearing my shoes is probably like the best part

of that job do you not ever want to go up to them and go yeah I've just noticed that you are wearing one of my designs it's me Sophia no no I'm always a bit I get very sort of self-conscious even when people say to me oh where did you get them sometimes I'm like I just say oh they're from Sophia and then I think oh someone's gonna go and like might google it and then think I'm a complete weirdo but yeah I don't know I just in the minute I don't know in a in a weird way I feel like they might be slightly underwhelmed because I'm usually just I don't know I might have just done the school run or I'm just going from here to there and they probably think I'd be some super glamorous sort of fashion like like devil wears prada type person and I'm just completely ordinary so I'm embarrassed

to say that I am wearing a just a shonky trainer. So I'm so sorry. I've kind of let myself down in the shoe stakes today, Sophia. Oh, don't worry. Now, listen, every week I ask my guests to bring their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma to the table. So Sophia Webster, iconic designer and shoe goddess, what have you got for us? Well, I thought I'd better do a shoe related one so it can't just be me that makes shoe contact before I make eye contact when I'm meeting someone new can I just say yeah I think that is just you I think it's shoe people yeah if you're in the in the shoe world definitely the first thing you look at someone she's because you can just tell so much from someone's footwear oh my god I just say to all the listeners that is so cringe because i've actually wandered in in a trainer and now she's saying that's the first

thing she looks at but they're clean you know i'm all about clean i'm all about the clean exactly that says a lot you know okay well i mean we will talk a little bit more about the psychology of one's footwear later on but in the meantime let's refocus on the task at hand which is our listener dilemma and to help us out with this one as well we're also joined by psychotherapist author podcaster and parenting specialist anna martha and a great choice of name how are you oh i'm good thank you i'm also yeah moving my feet awkwardly under the desk here. I can confirm that Anna Martha is also wearing a high-top sneaker, but hers are dirty, everyone. They are.

Why? Because I walked down the track this morning to the train. I had to hurdle a couple of puddles, but I made it here with my muddy gold shoes. So I don't know what that says about me. It says active woman. It says style, but also active. Yeah.

Now, today's dilemma is from a friend of the show who we'll call Rose, who wants some advice around parenthood and work and how to balance those responsibilities in her relationship. Here she is. Hey, Anna. I'm a female entrepreneur in my mid-thirties and I have two young children aged three three as well as a 10-week-old. I'm struggling, to be honest, with the mental load of managing all of these different areas of my life. My professional and my personal lives are pretty full on and I don't feel that this is split equally in my relationship. My partner is incredibly present and a very equal partner in many ways, but the mental load of ours and

our children's lives does fall disproportionately onto me. And I feel really frustrated because this feels like a cliche that I've always been keen to avoid in my life. And when I speak to friends in similar situations, in similar life stages, I'm definitely not the only one who's experiencing this. As a case in point, you know, no one's interviewing men, asking them how they juggle fatherhood and working lives. And yet this is a question that I'm asking. And that's also frequently asked of working women. So big question, but what should I do? How should I cope and redress the balance? And also more widely, what can we do to change things in society because it feels that this is something that affects lots and lots of people.

Okay, so before we get going, Rose only gave birth 10 weeks ago, so she's coping with a lot right now. And she's definitely not alone because according to stats from gov.uk in 2022, nearly 75% of mothers with children under 15 were in work. So there are a lot of women experiencing the same thing right now, including you, Sophia. How much can you identify with Rose's situation? I definitely can identify with being an entrepreneur and then having small kids. When I had my first daughter, I was in my late twenties and the business was maybe a year old. So it was still a startup. It was in its infancy and was growing. But I think my situation was a little bit different because I didn't have two kids at the time and I was completely naive about what having a baby the

difference and the changes that it would mean. Fill us in because for those listeners that don't have children I don't have children yeah I can't I mean I've seen it obviously yeah with my friends but I can't imagine the disruption. So what is it like when you're trying to run a business and then you've got a new baby? Yeah. What happens? Every day was very busy. There was a lot of responsibilities.

Because when you're an entrepreneur, it's like the buck always stops with you. And when you're a small team, a young team, we were all very young. You have to kind of have eyes on everything. So, yeah, I was pregnant. And then I had my daughter and I stayed at home for about, it was probably about 10 days. That was the choice that I made because I felt like I'd abandoned my other baby, which was the business in a way. And I think we got on the tube one day and I went to Westfield and got like a really good baby carrier. And then I just, I just had it in

the office with me. I'm not saying that's the ideal for everybody, but for me right then, and for me sort of mentally and also my, where the business was, that was the best thing for me to do. So paint us a picture of your life right now, Sophia, because you've got five children, because you've got five children yeah a thriving career so what does what does your day-to-day look like how do you manage it it's I mean it's very different now to how it was then because after BB I then had twins so that's a very different scenario you know you can't just take twins anywhere you know getting a baby bag together for twins is like packing for like a long haul flight for a holiday. You know, it's like a different completely was completely different.

But by then the business was a bit more established and, you know, there was processes in place and there was teams and I could delegate. So it's very different. But then when I had my fourth baby, I took him into work as well, because that's just that was kind of the easiest thing for us to do. It makes the most sense. I'm going to just turn my attention to Anna. You've got babies as well because that's just, that was kind of the easiest thing for us to do. It makes the most sense. I'm going to just turn my attention to Anna. You've got babies as well, haven't you? Yeah, I've got three kids. I'm just going to ask you, does your life, and you're a very successful woman as well, does your life and having had three kids, does that reflect Sophia's in any way?

No, totally different. I was so challenged by motherhood. I love routine. I like to feel like I'm in control. And I tried to apply my perfectionism to motherhood and it didn't go very well because it's not very translatable. And I quickly learned how little control I truly have in life and how, you know, if I try and be really driven as a mum, actually what I'm going to do is totally burn myself out, exhaust myself and feel like a failure. So I came to that lesson after having my second child and yeah, just completely changed my life really as a person.

I'm just so much more open and honest now. Okay. So I'm really fascinated by this with two successful feminist women in the room. One who seemed to manage very easily, in a sense, with your babies. And just being like, oh, fuck it. Yeah, let's just go for this. And it seemed to work. And then another woman who's going, I was a perfectionist. This was deeply challenging for me. So I had to change my way of thinking. Sophia, did you find it quite easy in a way? I mean, it might sound like we've got it all clued up, but it's definitely, the reality is not really like that. At home, it can be complete chaos, especially at bedtime,

because with the twins as well well you're just outnumbered so and they know they really know how to how to switch it up on you how to wind you up well yeah they just know that they're a team and they're a force and um so being an entrepreneur and a mum at the same time you know you really do have to sort of split your time and um there is a lot of mum guilt um and it's a big balance that you you have to keep kind of redressing the balance I think so if I'm away for work a lot if I have to go to a factory for a week then I'll come back and I'll be able to sense that you know the dynamic is different especially with my eldest daughter. She's nine, so she's getting into that very kind of sassy phase. And I'll just be able to tell that there's a bit of a disconnect there.

And the reality of that is that you're then going to have to try to redress that balance and put things in place. So I know if there's a bit of distance there, I'll make sure, right, tomorrow I'm going to pick Bebe up from school. We're going to go for hot chocolate. We're going to do something nice, you know? And I think that's also a good thing as well, is to split the kids up, especially with the twins and make sure that each person gets, each kid gets their own little bit of time. That's a good idea. Because they all need that. Let's talk about the fact that you've got a very successful marriage

Because they all need that. Let's talk about the fact that you've got a very successful marriage and you guys work together as well. So fill us in first with what is the dynamic between you and your husband professionally? How does that work? I am the creative director and Bobby is CEO. So any decisions from like a creative or the direction or anything like that that's my realm and then the accounts or shipping or the boring stuff yeah that's bobby um i mean but sophia does bobby ever kind of like get involved with your drawings and go do you know i'd love to see more of a chunky heel on that yeah

he to be honest there's there's this one shoe that he it's like one of our best sellers it's been best seller for like maybe nine years and he thinks he designed it classic that's classic fella we bicker about it all the time and I'm like

it's because we we started off with my Chiara which is the very famous butterfly wing shoe and then he actually said right we need another shoe

that's like similar silhouette because the butterfly is very colourful they're very playful it's like needs to be a bit more very colourful. They're very playful. It's like needs to be a bit more classic, you know, gold. So he will come to me and say, I think we need this. And then I was like, okay, let's do angel wings. So then there's this shoe that's called Evangeline.

And that's something that he thinks that he designed it. But I'm like, no, I actually designed it. So yeah, we argue about that. This is why you hear it here, Bobby. You didn't design it. Okay. We know the trick. Cut out, my friend. it so yeah we argue about that this is why you hear it here bobby you didn't design it okay we know the truth out my friend um what's it like when you get home you stop talking about angel wing shoes yeah well it's very hard to sort of detach i would say and to have those boundaries

especially when you work i mean we're together 24 7 and we have been for like a decade so it's like we've done I don't know 20 marriages you know it's not easy and we're and we're quite protective about the things that we both need and this like our own space I would say so I like to go to my classes at the gym and I like to get my nails done in a week that's what I like to do he likes to do he goes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu twice a week so they're the things that we both will always so he's making the shit out of somebody going they were my shoes my design I yeah I don't get Brazilian jiu-jitsu it just looks like just like hugging I'm gonna YouTube this like I don't want to hug like he's like you should come you'd really like I'm like no I can't get that up and close with like sweaty people I just can't do it but I guess what you're saying is when you get home because

you're with each other 24 7 you've been doing this for many many years very successfully part of that success is that you need separation and your own space and your own interests yeah we try but sometimes it's it's really it really difficult. And also there's always different things. It could be, you know, like health things or family or, you know, we've had, there's been lots of things that we've had to juggle and deal with. You know, there's been like real tragedy. Like when the business was just taken on investment, the business was flying and then I had a really tragic thing

that happened within my family. So when things like that happen, then that's when it becomes really difficult to like juggle everything and balls are just flying everywhere. It sounds to me as though, you know, you and Bobby appear like two swans in a way that have got this incredibly successful business and you're incredibly successful parents, but actually underneath you're paddling wildly. And it is quite chaotic. The truth is it's quite chaotic. Anna, for you, I guess, as a psychotherapist

and, you know, author and podcaster and everything else, all the other hats that you wear, what would you say? I actually, yeah, I had almost like three different experiences of motherhood across my three different children. But I think what I'm hearing in your story, Sophia, is that it was all seen. Your partner saw everything. All the, you know, the nappy buying, the shopping, because you were together and you were working together. There wasn't that element,

which I think what Rose is saying in her, you know, can't just be me, is that so often there is so much that is unseen. And I think that's where the challenge has been in my own relationship where my husband has gone out. He used to leave the house at like half six and come back at half eight. So I would feel like there is so much that was unseen in motherhood. I hate him. He's around a bit more now, thank goodness. But there was a shift that had to happen because what happens and and I think this is what is what Rose is saying is that that unseen stuff builds up

and then that resentment starts creeping in of you know my husband used to come back and I used to feel jealous that he would have sat on the train yeah probably like brushed up against another man in a suit but to me I was I was like, you had that time, you had that space. How can you possibly be tired and stressed? I'm tired. And then you start with the trade off, like who's more tired, who's more stressed. And, you know, it might look like all I've done is lounge around in my dressing gown with my baby. But in reality, there are so many other elements that have gone on. And then it's that sense of being misunderstood and you don't know all the things I'm carrying in my mind you don't know all the things that I've

got you know in my diary let me pick up on that and go back to Rose because she talks about mental load so just from a psychotherapeutic point of view what are we really saying when we talk about our mental load what's going on for us so it's that moment when you're sitting down watching tv and what my husband is often doing is watching tv my mind however is working on 10 different levels and layers thinking about how's that gp appointment going to work with our school club have we run out of milk the challenge is is often then partners will say well just i'll let me know what you need me to do and then it's that micromanaging part of it of well I need to check whether you've actually done that and I need to

give you the number and I need to give you the email and by that point I might as well have just done it myself so I think the mental load is all of this stuff And do you think that perhaps Rose is reaching a point of overwhelm? Yeah. And I wonder if that resentment is there, that resentment of this isn't how I imagined it to be. I did not want to be living this cliche. And why is this a wider cultural expectation that everything tends to fall on the mother, or at least the lion's share is and I think sometimes I ask myself the question of do I actually want to be doing less do I want to hand things over because perfectionism again it can feed into this of actually I do but I'm holding it really tightly because it might not be done as well because I know that you're going to be shitted yeah it might not be done as quickly

but I challenge people to say but what will you preserve of yourself in handing it over and sometimes we need to watch other people do it badly first so that they then you know it only takes someone to forget a water bottle or a sports kit and have to do the annoying rush home and then late for a meeting to actually not do that again I think the kids would cope though if they didn't have the sandwich that they like or they didn't have the right water bottle or the drink. I think that kind of just builds that sort of resilience in the kids. So I think it's about just relinquishing those expectations for everything to be perfect

because that just really is the reality of being a mom being an entrepreneur you know you can't do both 100% and be the best at both and I think accepting that is like the first step really you finish the drinks you and your date have said your goodbyes and you're immediately on the phone to your best friend I like message all my friendship groups you're never gonna believe what's just happened to me the From Podomo and 2020, this is First Dates, the podcast. I'm Cece Coleman. And I'm Frankie Bridge. We'll be bringing you the most amazing, bizarre,

and heartwarming dating stories. He's like, this girl is crazy. It's First Dates, the podcast. Get it wherever you're listening to this or visit listentofirstdates.com. Just coming back to Rose, can we talk about childcare and the fact that childcare is astronomical? Anna, have you had clients come to you, women who've come to you and said, I'm going to have to give up my career because I've got to look after the kids and it's economically more viable for me to do that. Yeah, massively, massively unsupported by the childcare system.

You know, I've worked with mums who have gone through a real grief of having to go back to work and do certain hours that they didn't want to do at a time that they didn't want to do it. And then those mums that have gone through a grief of yeah of not being able to go back to work in a context that they loved and it gave them identity and a sense of purpose because of the child care costs work with one mum that was earning but the end of the month when all the things have been paid 12 pounds and that was fine when she was enjoying it and thriving in it and it bought her a sense of balance. And she thought, I'd rather earn £12 and have this outlet and it's working. But on the days when the trains were up the creek and the boss wasn't kind, you think, what am I doing?

So yeah, it's really hard. And how does that affect their relationship with their partner? I think it's when that that start that that sense of but you don't understand what this feels like and that you know I think in any relationship when there's that sense of being misunderstood and I used to say to my husband I wish you could feel how it feels like to be me because we we need to feel seen as humans don't we it's like this really deep-seated need we have to feel valued so i think it's really interesting that rose feels like she's a living cliche i i think that possibly there you know there are many many women that can identify with

this as a woman as a feminist i can with it. What is the solution to this? There's so many different things that can play into this. One thing that I think many of us have been brought up in our generation with mums that didn't have quite the same pressure of work, so maybe did have a little bit more time and did have a little bit more energy and resource, and also brought up with mums that just never sat down. Those mums that were just always doing things. And I think so many of us have learned, have this kind of deeply set narrative,

again, that to love well is to do. To do, do, do, and not rest until you've got nothing left. And that's kind of like sacrificial love. And I think, you know, sometimes we have to ask ourselves, what do I believe that love looks like? What is my relationship with rest? How do I feel when I have a day or a few hours with nothing to do? What do I feel like I should be doing? How do I feel stead? Do I feel guilty?

Do I feel like I speak to mums that literally feel guilty when they go out for a walk on their own? Yeah, I think mum guilt is something that we just need to like shake, you know. Yeah, I think mum guilt is something that we just need to shake. And also the pressure. I think mums put a lot of pressure on themselves, especially working mums put pressure on themselves that they should be in the playground at 3.20. And as someone that grew up with, my mum was the main breadwinner. My mum was never in the playground at 3.20

and I don't feel like she loved me any less. She was doing her best. Yeah. Okay, so I want to leave Rose with some concrete advice. So Anna, Rose says she's finding it difficult to be honest about how hard she's finding things. What should she do? Right, I think it can be so helpful

to literally sit down with your partner and write it all out on a massive piece of paper, like all of the detail. What is it that you're holding in your mind? What are you holding on your shoulders? Sometimes just externalising it and seeing it in black and white, A, can validate why it's so flippant, exhausting and stressful at points, but also it means that your partner can actually see all of this stuff. There's an amazing book by Eve Rodsky in it that's called Fair Play Life,

and it's about how can we look at these things and divide them out? What can we hand over? What maybe is being intensified by that perfectionism or by that sense of I need to do it all, only I can do it like this. And also maybe in the way that you would within a business that you delegate yes to your team and go right you and you you're amazing at doing this you do it because I hate it and in a sense that sounds like what you're doing Sophia yeah I delegate the things to my husband that he's good at and the things that I don't like doing like I hate driving and especially hate driving

with all the kids in the car like that is super stressful yes really stressful especially if the twins start you know having an argument or and then yeah it's just I don't like that at all so yeah I think it's about delegation it's just there's physically just not enough hours in the day especially if you've got more than more than one child there's just going to be so so many things going on um so I think you just have to kind of like I think she should like strip it back really especially having a 10 week old like that's when you're in survival mode so um yeah I would just pare everything back and just do whatever is completely essential. Just be doing whatever it is that you absolutely need to do and anything else that can wait. Let that wait because that's going to relieve a lot of pressure.

Finally, this is a big question, so I'm going to ask you for a one word answer. going to ask you for a one word answer okay rose asks what can we do to change things in society in terms of being more equitable anna i think we need to be honest about the hidden costs mentally relationship wise on women yeah just you know i think it's so easy just to perpetuate this whole it's fine we've got it covered when when actually behind the scenes, we're falling apart. It feels like a mess. Sophia, how do you think we can change things in society and make things a little bit more equitable? I think it definitely starts, you know, within your relationship and at home. Like I said, you know, I grew up with my mum as the main breadwinner so I definitely think

to see that that dynamic and grow up with that you're you're already going to be you know thinking what's possible for yourself and um I just try to be loud and like positively shout about being a woman in business to like redress the balance, I guess, and to hopefully inspire young girls to think that they can grow up to be female entrepreneurs as well. Exactly what they want. Absolutely. Rose, I hope that was helpful. Good luck. Look after yourself. You've got a 10 week old baby. And if you you get a moment please let us know how you're doing and also for all the rest of you that are listening what would you say to rose what would your advice be to her let us know now sophia anna we are not quite done yet this is going to be easier

this next dilemma it's a quick fire one i think we've just about got enough time this one is all about body image and clothes. And it's from someone who'd like to stay anonymous. So we'll call her Naomi. Here we go. Hi, Anna. I have this question and it's kind of basically bugged me my whole adult life. I basically have quite big boobs and I hate them and I don't want to hate them because I want to love my body, but I find it really hard because the clothes that I want to wear don't really suit having big boobs and I just don't feel really comfortable with them and it just doesn't feel like me and I don't really know kind of how to help that. So I just wondered if you had any advice about trying to embrace

those parts of yourself and basically also how to dress cool with big boobs. I would love to know how to do that because I don't seem to have mastered it yet. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Oh Naomi, I really, really feel for you there. As a, shall we say, buxomly chested lady, I completely sympathise with your dilemma here. And I had it through the whole of my adult life. It's just, you know, literally having to wrangle your tits into something that just, you know, completely didn't didn't suit you at all. So I totally understand it. So Sophia, in fashion terms, we are dealing with Naomi, who's got big breasts, not always easy. What would your advice be to her about really owning them, looking fabulous? What would you say? I would say, I mean, I've actually got quite big boobs. Have you? Yeah,

I'm an E, but you just don't really know. I know, it's kind of weird. No one ever thinks that they're that big. There is no way. I wouldn't have thought that. Yeah, I know, it's strange. But I do often wear minimiser bras as well. I don't know, because I just don't like, I don't ever wear like push-up bras. So you don't want to make a feature of them?

No, no. I would always like focus on my legs, I think. Like an amazing skirt with a split and then some like gorgeous shoes I definitely would start with the shoes I was gonna say it's gonna come down to a shoe is it so you're saying deflect attention away from the body part that you're uncomfortable with and focus on what looks great yeah always have a fabulous shoe yeah I think yeah that's what I would do Anna what would

you say I mean you are a psychotherapist you're an influencer you're in everything what would you say to a woman who was saying like do you know what I feel I feel uncomfortable about my boobs I want to like them but I sort of hate them I mean from a psychotherapeutic point of view this is interesting it is it is and I I immediately noticed the words that she was using so she said I want to love and I want to embrace and I think from the standpoint of where she is at the minute where she feels really uncomfortable and she's really struggling with it that is like a really long way to get to to get from I'm really struggling with this I want to love and embrace it and I encourage her just to think about kind of what's the middle ground here kind of more neutrality of like this is the way my body is I don't love it but I accept it so how can we get to that and I

think big boobs are being sexualized you know and she might have grown up with maybe attention or comments or being seen in a way that she didn't feel comfortable with so a little therapeutic activity that could be really great could be to write a letter to your boobs because we have a relationship with different parts of our body it's just like we have relationships with other people and and it can change and I think sometimes again just externalizing some of that journey some of those feelings can just yeah help us realize quite how impactful it's been and find a bit more compassion for ourselves in that area, which can then move us towards that place of acceptance. And that's such a lovely idea. And also, I think that within fashion and within society, there is that trope, isn't there, that sort of skinny and flat chested is the desired aesthetic.

aesthetic. So I can understand why Naomi may feel like I don't fit into that idealized beauty. And actually, I'd want to encourage her to realize that, yes, you do. You know, your body, it's a healthy body. It's a beautiful body. As you say, I think, Anna, acceptance of that is the first step, isn't it? To then embracing, as you say. So I love what you've just said there about, you know, potentially she could write a letter to her boobs and go, do you know what, you're mine and I love you. Thank you, both of you. We really are very, very grateful when guests come into the studio and spend their time with us.

So thank you to the pair of you for taking the time out of your very busy schedules to do that. We really are grateful to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for taking the time out of your very busy schedules to do that we really are grateful thank you for having me thank you for having me i'll be back next week with a new episode of it can't just be me in the meantime you know where to find me if you have a dilemma you'd like some advice on then drop me a voice note at it can't just be me.co.uk or you can email your dilemma to it can't just be me at podimo.com if you want more of It Can't Just Be Me, I don't blame you. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whatever you're dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Nilsson. And the executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe.

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