It Can't Just Be Me - 29: Struggling in Early Motherhood? With Jess Phillips

Episode Date: January 3, 2024

This week, Anna invites the Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley into the studio to respond to a dilemma from a listener who is apprehensive about preparing for her second baby. She recounts just how challenging she found her first weeks and months of early motherhood and shares some of her unique memories of this time. Anna and Jess are joined by psychotherapist, Sam Pennells-Nkolo, who shares her professional advice, as well as relating to Tiffany as a mum. The trio discuss the importance of building a network, consider the value they found in returning to work, and encourage Tiffany to be a little bit kinder to herself. This episode discusses postnatal depression and puerperal psychosis (also known as postpartum psychosis) If you or someone you love has been affected by any of the topics covered in this episode, help is available. The NHS website contains guidance on how to access support for postnatal depression https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-natal-depression/ and postpartum psychosis, https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/ —If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail]. With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.This podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags Creative Producers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Sarah MylesTheme music: Kit Milsom Executive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. And, you can watch the full episode on Youtube.  This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ANNA and get on your way to being your best self.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's the new year and sometimes we can get a bit obsessed with making ourselves better instead of just expanding on what we're already doing right. If you've never done therapy before, then please think about it. I've been doing it on and off for years and without question, it's helped me to become more resilient and arms me with coping skills when life just gets a bit tough. But where to begin? If you're thinking about it, then try BetterHelp.

It's entirely online and it's designed to fit into your schedule whenever you want it. All you need to do is fill out a brief questionnaire and you'll get matched to a licensed therapist. And you can switch up any time. So celebrate the progress you've already made. Visit betterhelp.com slash Anna today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash Anna. Hello and a happy new year to you. It's 2024 and we are raring to go here on It Can't Just Be Me. Now, as you know, our mission is to find you answers to your dilemmas on this podcast. But since we launched last year, we've noticed

that it's really important to you that we push the boundaries, brush off all the usual cliches and sometimes say the unsayable. So that's my New Year's promise to you. More taboo subjects, more questions you've been too scared to ask, and more honest conversations about real life, starting with this episode. So let me know, what is it that you want to hear about? Before we begin, we do discuss postnatal mental health issues in this episode, so please do take care when listening. Now, no one wants to admit that they feel anything but complete love for their new baby. In the weeks following birth, yes, it may be exhausting, but women are supposed to manage and naturally slip into the role of doting mother, or so we're told. But today's dilemma is from a mum who had a traumatic time in the months after giving birth to her first child.

And now that she's pregnant with her second baby, she's worried that the same thing will happen again. So she wants to know how to protect herself and her child. This is a complex and challenging topic and one that many people don't talk about, but I think it's really important for us not to shy away from it. So let's go there, shall we? Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna.

Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain.

I really want children and he doesn't. I have feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right?

I'm thrilled to say that my guest this week is Jess Phillips, the MP for Birmingham Yardley and former Domestic Abuse and Safeguarding Shadow Minister. Now, if the term MP conjures up an image of a career politician in a sensible suit, dodging the difficult questions, then think again, because Jess is known for her straight-talking, no-nonsense commitment to serving her constituents and advocating for the causes that she really cares about. As well as being a serving MP, Jess has written multiple books, hosts her own

successful podcast, Yours Sincerely, and is also mum to two sons. She had her first baby in her early 20s, and in her signature way, she's been open and honest about how she struggled, describing motherhood as lonely and crushing at times. It's a brave thing to admit to publicly, so I just know that she's going to bring a wealth of insight to today's dilemma. Here she is. It's Jess Phillips. Jess Phillips, Queen of the Labour Party, feminist superhero, and can I just say fellow Midlander? Woohoo! Woohoo! Thank you for coming on It Can't Just Be Me.

I think it's fair to say that you've had a very, very busy few months and weeks. How are you? I'm all right, you know. People keep treating me a little bit like I've died. I'm getting a lot of, are you all right? And I'm like that. Yeah, yeah. I just quit my front bench job.

Lots of my constituents, unfortunately, do think that I've quit as an MP because it's quite confusing for people, isn't it? And so they're getting in touch with me being like, oh, my God. Thanks so much for helping me with my daughter. Like, who's going to be our MP now? I'm like, still me. But no, I'm all right. I can see that you're absolutely fine.

And the rest, as they say, is politics, Jess. But you're actually here today to give us your advice on a dilemma that's come in about the complex feelings that some new mums can have towards their child. I have to say, it's one of the most sensitive ones we've had in and as a straight-talking brummy and mother of two I know that you're going to have a lot to say but before we get into the complexity of that each week I invite my guests to share their very own it can't just be me dilemma. So come on Phillips what have you got for me? Well, I thought of quite a few, but now I'm going to stick with it can't just be me

who, when somebody doesn't answer the phone, calls them repeatedly and then if they don't answer after repeated calls, namely my husband or one of my children, really they're the only people I actually ring to talk to, if they don't answer the phone after like four attempts, I immediately just assume that they're all dead. Oh, right. Okay, so you're ringing people constantly? Only them, really. I don't ring anybody else constantly. Do you think they're just completely ignoring you? I think that they don't have their phones near them because they're not obsessed with their phones in a way that I am. They're normal, old-fashioned human beings.

Even my younglings don't really look at their phones very much. My husband cannot tolerate the idea of being hemmed in by anything and he feels like his phone is master and so he purposefully will just ignore it. What kind of universe have we got going in in the Phillips household? So none of your younglings, or indeed Tom, your husband, really look at their phone? No. My eldest son a little bit more than everybody else, but no, not really. And so obviously what I'll do is I'll call my husband four times. If he doesn't answer, then I go to

the eldest one. If he doesn't answer, then I go to the youngest one. The youngest one has never answered his phone ever in the history of ever. You see, I'm also just getting the impression that they just don't want to talk to you. That is also true, that they don't want to speak to me because I don't live with them. So it's an unusual family set up. Are you actually connected in any way? Is this just a fantasy? I don't, maybe they don't really exist. You know, like one of those things where you're like, did I just invent this?

The trouble is, is that I do ring them for really inane reasons. No reason at all, in fact, just to say hello. Because I'm on my own and they're all together, cracking on with their lives. And I'll ring them and be like, oh, what are you doing? They're like, well, we're eating dinner, Jess. Like, why are you calling? And I love the fact as well that they call you by your first name. Well, that's my husband.

Although my son Danny calls me by my first name, but he doesn't just call me by my first name. He calls me Jess Phillips MP for Birmingham Yardley because he says I don't answer to mum. Because I ignore him when he says mum because I'm looking at my phone. I mean, I really could talk about this all day. And we do have a psychotherapist in the room and we'll pass her number on to you later. But let's just gently redirect us to the task in hand. And to help us both out with today's dilemma, we have super

psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Angolo with us here in the studio. Hi, everyone. It's a pleasure as always. How are you? I'm good. I'm good, thank you. You're looking good, Sam. You're looking good. Are you concerned by Jess's psyche? No, not at all. Do you think that I'm suffering from anxiety? I mean, and by that I mean I literally am suffering from anxiety

because I take medication for it. I think we all are. Okay, good. That's what I think. Okay, on a serious note, before I play this problem, I just want to reiterate that if something comes up in this episode that sounds familiar to you or is triggering, then we would urge you to go to your GP for support. Sam is, of course, a registered psychotherapist,

but nothing can replace a face-to-face appointment with a qualified professional. We've put some links to resources in the show notes, so please do reach out for support if you need it. Okay, Sam and Jess, are you ready? This is from Tiffany. So I'm 16 weeks pregnant with my second child. Both of the pregnancies have been very planned and wanted, but when I gave birth to my three-year-old son it was just under corona and things were incredibly stressful. I'm self-employed and work in the same firm as my partner. Our employee went off sick 10 days before I gave birth so we were pretty much on our own with only two

days of paternity leave my partner and otherwise stuck with a baby who didn't put on weight and my partner and otherwise stuck with a baby who didn't put on weight and didn't ever sleep and I was obviously both upset and teary and not feeling very happy but but the level of rage that I felt is not something that I've experienced before every time that he refused to sleep I got so angry and could shout at him and hate myself and whilst all of that is luckily behind me both because he started to sleep and also he's looked after full-time so I was able to return to work and become myself again but I worry that I'm going to get into the same mental state as I was when I gave birth to my first son I don't want to get so angry I want to try to be able to enjoy that baby bubble and just accept that it's hard

to have it's hard to have kids and it's hard to not sleep properly. So I guess my question is, how do you prepare for your second child when your experience with your first child was not exactly what you'd anticipated it being and sort of enable yourself to start afresh, as it were, when you're also plagued by horrible memories of your own behaviour and how it all went tits up. Well, I mean, this just sounds absolutely horrific. And I know that it's something that other parents listening may well identify with. Jess, you've spoken publicly about how you struggled after the birth of your first son.

Can you just walk us through that period in your life and how you felt I was quite young I'd only been going out with my now husband then boyfriend for three weeks when I found out that I was pregnant yeah so you'd been basically it was that we've just met we're really we haven't just met we'd known each other for years but we'd only been together uh for about three weeks when I got pregnant which if he were here, he'd say, you told me you couldn't have kids. But that's what I was told because I had endometriosis. Wow, so that was a complete surprise to you.

Complete shocker. And because I thought that it might be the only chance for me to have a baby, I was like, well, I'm going to have this baby. Although I did pretend to go through the motions of making a decision. But every single time I found out that I was pregnant, I know the second the little lines appear exactly what I'm going to do about it. And I've made various different decisions. But I've known the second. And I knew when I found out I was pregnant with Harry that I would keep him.

But, you know, I didn't know anybody who had a baby my husband and I well my then boyfriend he definitely was like not as sure as me about it we lived in like essentially sort of squalid share house and I'd only moved in because I'd been evicted we'd lived together for like a week and then I found out I was pregnant so but then once we made the decision I had no expectations and I actually think that no expectations is better in lots of regards but now when I talk to people about having their first baby I say to them and it's not very you know obviously I say congratulations not that brutal first thing I do is i tell them that after you give birth you pass clots that are so big that you think your liver's falling out i genuinely thought that i was dying i was in a

hospital bathroom having given birth to my son and it was very traumatic labor i tried to have him at home and it had taken 24 hours i'd ended up in surgery with a spinal block oh my god like it was all very very very traumatic. And my mum was there and she'd like had four kids like shelling peas. And I felt, I felt like a failure for having to have interventions. But I remember being in this little toilet cubicle because they don't let you leave the hospital till you've done two wheeze or something to basically make sure you're functioning properly. I don't think that happens now. They just sling you out right out. But back when I had my kids,

you pass. And so you have to wee into a bowl because you have to then prove to them like you're a child that you've done a wee. I passed into it. What I thought was my liver falling out of my like clots that big. And I thought I was going to die. And it was so frightening. And no one had told me that was happening. So I tell women who are pregnant with their first babies not to be frightened that it's totally normal. The second thing I say is that the first eight weeks of your first baby's life are the worst eight weeks of your life. Really? Yeah, just harrowing, harrowing change of culture

that you are not at all prepared for. No book you have read. There is nothing that can prepare you. But after eight weeks, it's not that things get better or that your baby sleeps through the night and that everybody who tells you that that is the case is lying to you because they've forgotten. Your mum and dad will tell you that when you were little, you were eating from eight weeks and sleeping through the night just because they're old and they've forgotten. But after eight weeks, your standards just drop and you've adapted to the culture of having a baby.

And so you think a good time is 20 minutes of peace. Really? Yeah, you get really low standards. I remember once when my second son was tiny and my elder son was three, going to Stratford-upon-Avon in the pissing rain and everybody cried, including me, and we're on this boat on the river. And when we got back in the car, we all went,

that was a lovely day. I think our standards are low now. Is that what happens? Yes, miserable, having small children. The thing is, to the point of this brilliant woman, she's not in an alternative situation. She's in a regular situation. She's in the same situation.

I cannot tell you the amount of times I stood over my son's cot and called him a twat. Really? Yes. And then I sort of started just to turn on my husband. And then he's a twat as well. He's a twat. In the middle of the night, everybody's a twat

and all there is is people who are like... I mean, I used to just try and say it in is people who are like I mean I used to try and say it in a calm voice because I wanted him to go to sleep like why he's such a dickhead like go to bed like everybody feels that way my son is not in any way damaged by I mean he calls me a twat quite a lot so maybe in a calm voice in a calm voice but did you feel that immediate love no oh right second time around i did this is probably you know something to hold on to when having your second baby i didn't know how to feel it i'd never experienced that love the moment my son was born i thought i had been frightened before but I'd never experienced fear before I'd been in frightening

situations but the genuine existential fear that you had to get somebody to stay alive till the end of the day a good day when you have a newborn baby is nobody died that's the level nobody died today I remember I was pushing him around the buggy in Sainsbury's in Kings Heath where we live and I had this sort of epiphany that I had a baby and it was a week after well it was a week after we came out of the hospital because I was in hospital for a week after he was born and so two weeks after he was born and I remember just being like oh my god I've got a baby like and I loved him very much and I started sort of hysterically laughing crying in the aisles at Sainsbury's I remember it so vividly I remember that I bought Bavarian smoked cheese oh I love a

bit of smoked cheese though I mean let's just have the reality a bit more of the reality of having a newborn actually I'll come to you Sam tell us about I've not had children I have been pregnant I understand the emotional and hormonal disruption. But tell us about this anger and frustration that Tiffany is feeling. Is it hormones? Is it sleep deprivation? Or is there something else at play as well? type you either suppress that anger you express the anger you have to find a way to manage it or move through it but I've not yet met a woman who's had a child when she speaks honestly that says she hasn't felt it mum rage is a real thing I love that mum rage is a real thing but but what is the mum rage though do you say I mean Jess what do you think part of it is going to be hormones because like you know like when you know you're getting your period because you're crying at the OXO advert. So some of it is that I remember when my second son was born, I was in hospital for about a week and a half afterwards.

And it was in that week Barack Obama became the president of the United States. And I was watching it on the television in my little cubicle thing. And I was crying because it was very emotional. And then the midwife came in and started talking to me about whether I was crying because it was very emotional and then the midwife came in and started talking to me about whether I was depressed I was like that no no no it's Barack Obama and she was like what so anyway um so have you told Barack Obama this story I feel like you need to email him um there is a lot of teariness and a lot of emotion and that makes you tired. Also, you're grim. You know, like on your worst day when you're feeling a bit down,

you feel like your clothes are cutting into you and you feel like it hurts. Like you feel physical pain at your physical form because you're miserable. And it usually in women comes out in fatness, like a fear of fatness. You're also, you know, you're soaked through with both sweat and milk and you're bleeding absolutely loads. So there is so much going on both physically and hormonally. And at the same time, you feel judged. The second you evacuate your womb of a baby, you feel guilt and fear in a way that you have never felt it before why guilt

because women are trained from birth to basically feel like everything is their responsibility so the sort of patriarchal norms and you are trying to not just keep up with the joneses but well i was 22 so this is specifically to me like i felt like people thought I was a gym slip mom and I didn't know what I was doing. And I felt judged by healthcare professionals. Without them doing anything to judge me necessarily, I still felt it. And so all of that going on. And then literally something that we do to people in torture to deprive them of sleep. And even when your baby is asleep, people say really glib things

like, when your baby sleeps, you should sleep. And it's the, I've got to do the bloody washing. And also, I'd like to just exist without this baby for a second. So you don't sleep, you don't do that. And the sleep deprivation will drive you mad. In the middle of the night, the best advice I can ever give to anybody, and I still think this about when I wake up all through the night anxious, is that things that matter at three o'clock in the morning never matter by 9am. Like they've gone, they're an illusion.

Sam, according to the NHS, more than one in 10 women experience postnatal depression within a year of giving birth. At what point does the stress of being a new parent become postnatal depression or more seriously, puerperal psychosis? This is a difficult one because they say, whoever they are, that come 10 days, so it's natural and normal for two weeks again and I think these timelines are really unrealistic but they say that okay two weeks three weeks if you know baby blues that's what's referred to as the baby blues you feel a bit low a bit depressed again I don't like the labels but

okay you're not sleeping of course anyone would feel flat and low once it gets to let's say a month and you still feel like that you maybe maybe can't go out, you start feeling highly anxious. Things before that you would find easy, like going to the shops or meeting your friends, you're becoming reclusive, you're starting to isolate yourself. If that keeps going on, then we'd start to look at, OK, are you experiencing postnatal depression? And I think it's important to say experiencing postnatal depression. I don't think it's a fixed state. The idea that we can move through it, we can work with it. And often women will say, I just don't feel like myself. But for very extended periods of time, they don't want to see their friends. They don't want to

talk to anybody. They don't want to go out. Whereas before, they might have been very different. So I suppose it's at that point that we'd look at, OK, are you experiencing postnatal depression? If we're going into psychosis, we're looking at possible delusions, having sort of almost personality distortions where family and friends will say, OK, this is not how? If as a mother or as somebody that, you know, is connected to a new mother is worried about how they're feeling or their behaviour, what should they do? I mean, the first thing, this is difficult, is if you're feeling like this to try to talk to somebody. So if you have a partner, if you have friends, if you can't do that, again, go to see your GP. And I'd always say go to see your GP anyway if you're feeling off but that idea of trying to connect with people is a difficult thing to do when you're feeling judged isolated alone worried about what people are going to think about you you've got to get your boob out

every exactly every minute it's not every four hours no it's four hours on 20 minutes off yeah no matter what they tell you yeah it's really difficult that idea of trying to connect with people trying to just say I'm having a difficult time. Be honest about how you're feeling, which so many women are not. But do you think that a woman should go straight to her GP or her health worker? Yeah, I would say that that's the first thing. So if you're feeling a little bit off, it doesn't have to be biologically. Go to see a GP, have a conversation, see what they think. And as well as trying to connect with people that are close with you, trying to get that support. So you're not just going to one person, okay, go see my GP, because a lot of women will say to me, I've gone to see my GP and I found, you know, okay, what

else do I do? So that's our number one, go see the GP, and then try to just be honest about how you're feeling, which is actually quite hard for a lot of women to do. What if it tips over into parable psychosis? What should people be doing in that situation? The moment that happens, or it's very difficult to identify within oneself, go to the doctors, go to the GP, tell your close friends. It's very difficult. Close friends and family will probably notice it because there's a marked difference in terms of character, in terms of how you experience that person, but straight to the GP as soon as you can. Yeah. And Tiffany also speaks about being plagued by horrible memories of her behaviour towards her first child. I think we can all relate to the idea of feeling the guilt and the remorse of just being vile and, you know, why did I behave that way?

vile and you know why did I behave that way. Sam what tips can you give that might help Tiffany to let go of those anxious thoughts and guilt that I'm going to do this again I'm going to do this again. Well I think it's really important particularly if this is her second child that there's always going to be things that come up you shout at your child and think oh god I'm such a bad mum I feel so guilty it's about the repair so it's about the idea of I can repair I can make it better I can go and say I'm really sorry for shouting So it's about the idea of I can repair, I can make it better. I can go and say, I'm really sorry for shouting. Mummy was angry. And the idea of thinking that if you've done it once, you can do it again. And it doesn't have to be the same thing.

But it's almost like we're prepared. You know what's coming now. It's different. Again, the idea of having no expectations with your first child. Now, the problem is when you've had a traumatic or difficult birth or experience of being a mother the first time, you automatically think it was going to happen again. Again, as you said, it's going to happen again, it's going to happen again. And often I'll say to people, okay, in that moment of anxious thought, which we all go through, is there an alternative?

So instead of our feeling brain where it's like, it's going to happen again, I can feel it, the dread, a lot of women talk about dreading it try and ask yourself cognitively is there another alternative is there a way that it might not be exactly the same because it probably won't but again I'm talking about taking away the emotion in a way and going well it might be different there might be ways that I won't be the same so you're giving yourself a bit of space from the anxious thought and the option as well of do you know know what? It may not be as bad. It might be better. It might be better. Sam, does having postnatal depression with one child make you more likely to have it with the next one? The research supports that you are more likely to experience

feelings that you had before. That does not mean that you can't work with it. And that does not mean that you will have it. I've worked with women who've had postnatal depression with their first child, second child, not necessarily so. So I think it's different. It's case to case on a case to case basis. But just to be prepared that if you have experienced that, put things in place before the baby arrives so that you know you've got a system to work with. That can be really helpful. So tiffany talked about returning to work and how that helped her to become herself again first time around what helped you to feel yourself again after your boys definitely going to work really definitely i think that just a massive shout out to women who stay off work and look after their children the level of expectation on your partner is quite important as well.

And I watch quite a lot of women act as if they do everything and sort of gatekeep it a little bit. Like my husband has always been my children's primary carer because he worked a four-on, four-off night shift when they were born. And so he was up in the night anyway. If only he could lactate. Honestly, if people could just evolve, that would have been considerably better. But my husband lived in the night time because he was a night shift worker

when my children were born. And so even when I was in a desperate situation in the night breastfeeding, he was sat next to me talking to me. Yeah, I mean, you're nodding, Sam. Does that make sense to you? Do you hear this in your therapy rooms? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Again, saying, well, you know, he just doesn't do it like I do it, but I want him to do more. And it's like, well, if you're going to kind of tell him off for not doing it how you do it, then he's just not going to do it. Well, look, let's leave Tiffany with some concrete advice. She asks, how do you prepare for your second child when you're experienced with your first one when tits up? So we've touched on this a little bit,

but I'm thinking straight away, support network. So Sam, what should Tiffany put in place now? Because clearly she's anxious about having a second baby. I mean, I would lean on that support network. Any mum that she knows, anyone on the school run, everybody, anybody, in a way it doesn't matter who they are. If you've got a network, you feel safer. And that idea of being able to feel like I'm anxious, being able to say it to numerous people eases the stress. So that's number one, get that support network in. Know what your day is going to look like. I think routine's a good one. Getting out, making sure that every every day even though you don't want to go to that soft play that smells you go and you get there take a bottle of wine we used to drink it out of the little ikea kiddie there you go that network is invaluable it's something you can't you know connection is the biggest thing that we struggle

with don't look at the apps don't look at the leaps here and there. You know what's best for your baby. We don't need these things. It's the idea of just intuitively what works for you. And if you are happier, your baby will be happier. Everyone's happier. So Jess, three tips. What would you, concrete advice for Tiffany? What would you say? Yeah, I would say definitely trust your instincts. Expect nothing. Like you're given birth to a human being. My children are exactly the characters they were the day they were born as they are today. They are exactly the same. Now, if you're expecting to give birth to a battery hen that will behave,

it's a human being. It has its own character. Sort of live with the fact that it has its own character and let yourself off the hook. Give yourself a break. I've got one that's an absolute pain in the arse. Literally, I tore all the way down. I mean, it's characterful, and I have one that's really thoughtful and, like, considered.

Like, you get what you get, and you should just cut yourself some slack because some of them are harder than others. But, yeah, I cannot stress enough that getting out with your mates and making mates, and even if you don't particularly like the people, it gives you conversations with your husband when they get back from work to slag them off. It's basically content. You're providing content that isn't just about the baby. Because for four solid years, the only things me and my husband talked about was the children

or the other mums that we were slagging off the way that they were doing it moms and dads uh so i can't i can't stress enough how important it is that like nct and all that i think it's probably nonsense because nobody's birth goes the way that it does but the thing it does provide people is a network of people who are having a child at the same time. Jess, Sam, thank you so much for giving such honest, unfiltered, considered advice on this. I really do appreciate it. And Tiffany, I hope that this has been helpful for you. All of the team here are wishing you and your partner a much easier time with your new baby. And, you know, like the girl said, you get what you get. You've been there before. You're going to be better prepared this time. And just because you had

a traumatic time first time doesn't mean that that's going to happen again. And we hope that it doesn't. Now, as Sam well knows, I'm not done with you yet because we have a final quickfire dilemma to put to you both. Are you ready? It's a nod. Here we go. Okay, this one is about work-life balance and it's from Niamh. Here goes. Hi, Anna. I found my dream job. I love what I do and I've worked really hard to get here, but I'm finding it hard to strike the right balance between my working life and personal life. Do you have any tips on good habits for boundary setting and work-life balance? Oh man, work-life balance, boundaries. I mean, yeah, Jess is basically shaking her head. I imagine that you have no work-life balance as a mother and also a politician. So how do you manage it?

I mean, I never, ever have a balance. After COVID, I felt like there was too much life in the balance. I was a bit like, I have watched everything on Netflix. I've completed the internet because I'm so used to having to travel around. And when I didn't have to do that, the amount of time, and then I just sort of got used to it. But I just think it goes in waves. I'm either working absolutely like a dog and hours upon hours upon hours upon hours and i feel knackered and i can't be bothered to go out at the weekend and people's merriment sort of irritates me

damn those happy people yeah i'm like oh you're just so drunk you know when you're not really drunk around drunk people that is the worst it's probably usually me i mean and then it makes me think i must be intolerable when i'm really drunk um but and then i go through periods where i'm really really sociable have much more of a life doing loads of like cultural activities with my husband as my children are older now as well they literally require almost nothing of me apart from money but i've never ever got it to be the point where i have like this much work and it's going it's going my husband does my husband works on the tools in a very unionized workforce and he thinks like the second that five o'clock comes that you put down your tools and if this if somebody wishes you to pick

that tool up again they'll be paying you double bubble like that is like if somebody calls him out of work he is like an on-call rate i used to be working in a women's refuge at the same time as he had those jobs and i'll be there like sewing the curtains for a new family to come in at like 11 and be like i'll be home later and being paid half the amount that he was being paid. And he'd be like, you're an absolute mug woman. You're a fool to yourself. You're a mug. Put your tools down and crack on home. And he definitely, he works to live. If you're the kind of person who's worked their way up to get their dream job, give in to the idea that you're ever going to have a work-life balance. Sometimes you're going to have nice times. Other times you're just going to work like a dog you see i can completely

identify with that as you know having worked in broadcasting since i was sort of you know 22 that there is no work-life balance i mean sam you're nodding sagely here going oh god so what would you be saying to neve here how do we get those boundaries in place for work-life balance? Or is it just a constant battle? I think it's a constant battle. And I think we have to put our own boundaries up when we think, OK, what's my life about? What's my day about? What's important for me?

And I don't think that's the same for everybody. And I totally agree with Jess. I think this idea of balance and boundaries, all these words, they're great. But in practice, they don't work. We have to kind of go with, again, instinct and know, well, this is important for me. And I want to be able to, let's say, see my children this evening. Maybe tomorrow I can't because I've got to go to work. And we have to find a way to come to terms with that. Because that idea of it being completely balanced and boundaries, I've not experienced it to be reality. Now that we're on a bit of a rant, right, because I'm really shit at answering my emails and my WhatsApps and my texts and my phone calls.

That's fine. Well, this is it. But I feel like I'm an absolute failure compared to everybody else. It's like, you've not come back to me. And I'm like, just because there's loads and I sort of can't be bothered. I have a reply that says, if I haven't got back to you within 10 days, that's regular. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I have to have it for my constituents because... In fairness, you do have constituents. I've just got just me and, like, you know, my dog. So I haven't got constituents. Have I got, you know, an excuse? You haven't got 120, i got a you know you haven't got 120 000 people who about things like you know that they've found a rare spider um but yeah but i think i think that's

okay to say like i'll get back to you within 10 days well i don't think you need to be prescriptive it's just people should just expect people to get back to them when they can. And don't assume bad faith. So much assumption of bad faith in the world. It's like, oh, she's not got back to my WhatsApp. She thinks she's annoyed with me. And it's just like, no, she's probably in the bath. Like, whatever. Like, get over yourselves.

I have to say, I find the boundary setting to be a bit patronising in a way that we didn't used to call it that we called it a shift and I feel like it's a bit become a bit performative I try because of my work-life balance I try and say I will never I used to be like I will never work on a Thursday evening and I'll never work on a Sunday those are the the days, apart from Remembrance Sunday, obviously. But if it doesn't work out like that, it doesn't matter. Don't lose sleep about it. But yeah, basically, if you're happy and functioning, it doesn't matter if you're going to work all the time. So Sam, what are we saying here about the work-life balance and boundaries? I think we have to do what works for us.

Whatever works for you, as Jess said, if you're happy and you're content, that's it. We all have to work within our own boundaries, whatever that means for us, and not be forced or funnelled into this idea of what we should be doing. We should be doing this, we should be doing that. Actually, you decide for yourself what works. That's it.

Jess, thank you so much for coming into the studio today in person. I'm aware of how in demand you are, even though your kids are ignoring you. So truly, we're very grateful for the time. You're very welcome. Thank you very much for having me. It's been a total pleasure. And Sam, as always, it's a joy to see you and to get your sage advice. We literally hang off your every word. Thank you.

You're very kind. Thank you. I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, if you find yourself with a dilemma and really need some advice, then please send me a voice note at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email your dilemma to itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. And if once a week just isn't enough for you, and let's face it, it isn't, remember you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me,

because whatever you're dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you. dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Milson, and the executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.