It Can't Just Be Me - 30: From lovers to friends? With Sue Perkins

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Is it ever possible to transition from a romantic relationship to a friendship? This week, Anna welcomes writer, actor, presenter, comedian and all-around National Treasure - Sue Perkins - to unpick this very question, along with the help of psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Nkolo.The trio hear from a listener who, after coming out as gay to her husband, is struggling with their new dynamic. Together they consider how deep love and respect can still exist in a relationship even when it's no longer romantic, how younger generations are finally embracing more fluidity when it comes to sexuality and Sam offers expert advice for our listener on how to navigate this situation with their children's welfare in mind.—If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail]. With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.This podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ANNA and get on your way to being your best self.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, I know that at the start of the new year,

it can be tempting to try to completely reinvent ourselves. But this new year, I want to encourage you to start the year in a positive mindset and celebrate all the things you're already doing right. If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you'll know that I'm a big advocate for therapy. I found that over the years, therapy has helped me to build the resilience that I've needed to navigate some of the trickier times in my life. But where do you begin? That's where BetterHelp comes in. They offer an entirely online service designed to be convenient and flexible. All you need to do is fill out a brief questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist. And you can switch therapists

at any time at no extra cost. So celebrate the progress you've already made. Visit betterhelp.com slash Anna today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash Anna. dilemma is all about that. It's from a woman called Corinne who's grappling with transitioning a romantic relationship to a platonic one. She's been in a heterosexual relationship with her husband for over a decade, but she recently came out as gay. Building a friendship with an ex is something that I have personal experience of, as does my guest today. So I have a feeling this one is going to be a special one. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't

I had feelings of jealousy It's just all around the middle, I feel like a Teletubby And then I hated myself for feeling that way If you've got any advice I would really appreciate any advice It can't just be me It can't just be me, right? My guest today is an accomplished all-rounder

She's a writer, actor, presenter and comedian with over 25 years experience in showbiz. She's both a household name and a national treasure. It is, of course, Sue Perkins. Sue first landed on our screens in 1997 alongside her long-term comedy partner, Mel Gedroych, And since then, the pair have established themselves as one of Britain's favourite double acts. They've presented hundreds of hours of television together, including seven series of the smash hit, The Great British Bake Off. Outside of her partnership with Mel, Sue is a star in her own right.

She's the host of BBC Radio 4's iconic comedy panel show, Just a Minute, is a best-selling writer and has several travel documentaries under her belt as well. Here she is, everyone. It's Sue Perkins. Susan Elizabeth Perkins.

Anna-Claire Richardson. 54 years old. Wow, straight off the bat there. There's no lulling me in, is there? Oh, well, no, there's more coming. Intellectual titan comedy genius maestro and national treasure is how some people may describe you, but I know you as maggot. How are you?

I'm good, Pupa. I'm good. That was a really nice introduction. Thank you. I didn't write it. No, I didn't think so. It felt dead coming out of your mouth, do you you. I didn't write it. No, I didn't think so. It felt dead coming out of your mouth, do you know what I mean? I know. Like it had been arranged by somebody else and the act of you saying it made you feel a little unwell.

It was a struggle. It's a nice gloss on what has been a very fortunate, lengthy career. Well, how long have you been in broadcasting now? Because it's quite some time. Dance the self-penditivity that I did, that I forced on my family aged seven counts, in which case, over four decades. What did you play?

All the parts. And also as well, I did at one point there was a dream sequence where I sort of scrolled forward to the crucifixion. I mean, it was it was troubled, I will say. And I'm hoping that there's enough meat on the bone of the show that possibly that anecdote can get lost in the mix there will be enough meat on the bone of this show because there's a lot to unpack in today's dilemma it's from a woman who recently came out as gay to her husband and is looking for advice on how to transition their romantic relationship to a friendship now i'm aware that this could have come from any number of people that you and I actually... Yeah, it's quite a lot of people I know, yeah. I could see your mind then rolodexing through. Oh God, it could be Sarah, it could be Claire, it could be Debbie. Yeah, yeah. But before we get into that, every week I ask my guests to bring in their very own

It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. What have you got? So it can't just be me that finds the sound of an obese Staffordshire bull terrier in the dead of night comforting. And I don't believe I'm alone in that. I believe you'll have listeners who either want the dog on the bed or near the bed. When we first met and you had Pickle and Parker, the beagles. Yeah. And we had a massive disagreement about whether or not they could be on the bed scroll forward several years when we adopted piggy tiggy our obese staffable terrier and she was not only on the bed in the bed yes between us let's face it we loved it yeah but

you've this is what i love now is Anna's doing this. We love it. Tig now lives at mine, poos on the bed, poos on the carpet, poos where she wants, voms everywhere, whines, eats every kind of faeces, the buffet of countryside faeces. Anna talks about our dog. What I love, I read these articles, right? Anna's Sunday morning. Well, I love to start a Sunday walking my rescue dog. I'm like, I'm reading that.

I'm out in the driving rain. You are absolute cheek. Absent parent. Now, listen, to help us out with today's dilemma, we are joined by the, it can't just be me, veteran psychotherapist, Super Sam Penel colo um i don't think you quite realize what you've let yourself in for today i don't think i have either welcome how are you i'm good always always a pleasure okay let's crack on this dilemma is from corin hi anna my

husband and i separated recently and we've got children and we've been together for 14 15 years and the reason we separated is because I've come out as gay we are really really good friends like amazingly good friends and it's really tricky when reading all marriage advice, because every part of our marriage is so good, except for the fact that I'm gay and that aspect of it doesn't work for us. And so we are planning to keep living together and to raise our children together for as long as that works for us both, because we do get on so well. But I'm really struggling with working out our boundaries with each other because we talk about everything and then now that's really tricky because there are

aspects of this separation and how we both feel that are quite painful and that we can't talk about and i just feel like it can't just be me who's breaking up with somebody that they actually really love and they're having to live together and work out a way forward. I just appreciate any advice. Thank you. So, I mean, Corinne is dealing with some huge changes here. Sue, I'm interested. Can you identify with anything in Corinne's dilemma there?

Because obviously I could see you really thinking... I was very emotionally captured by it. You know what I'm like. I'm quite an emotionally driven person anyway. But I can hear in her voice the sorrow and the heaviness of what she's experiencing, which is essentially a leave-taking.

I can identify with it. I was in a very long relationship with a guy. When I was young, I was very, very young, 17, we started seeing each other and that ended not for lack of love but both of us started to experience changes in the way we felt you know a need to become who we were going to be sexually and it was an incredibly painful uh shift for us because we were so close and you were together for a few years yeah no six seven years yeah and this is

and i think this dilemma is a very good one to talk about because essentially what it's talking about is the fluidity of life and sexuality and in particular but it's still something that people don't really accept or understand. And I remember, I wrote a book, an autobiography, and I mentioned this wonderful guy that I'd been with. And three days after the publication, he texted me going, Hey, lovely, just to let you know that there are a load of tabloid journalists outside my house. And he lives in France. And the reason they were there, because somebody couldn't countenance that a woman they had pigeonholed as gay would have been desperately in love with a man. And that's where I think kids now have got it really right. There's an acceptance that it's a scale.

It's a spectrum. There are margins for people to experience love. But within that, within that exploration and the need to explore of course there's collateral damage and pain and that's what I sensed was going on there that a hundred percent well let's talk a little bit more about that and you know you mentioned the kids have got it right these days in terms of self-identifying but let's talk about the children and of course Corinne's husband Gareth just so you both know we've spoken to Corinne to find out a little bit more about her situation. She told us that she's always identified as bisexual, but it's only recently that she's accepted that she's actually lesbian. She also told us that she and her husband, Gareth, have

six children together. So there's a lot of emotion and feelings at play here, including for Gareth and the kids. So Sam, as a mother and as a psychotherapist, what advice can you give about sharing those complex life-altering changes with your children? This is very, very complicated because there isn't a simple answer. If there's six children, how old are the children? And how much information do you want to share with your child slash children about your personal life? So that question varies from person to person. And it's the idea of, I would say, little and slowly dependent on their age and also the propensity and personality of the child. You know, some parents will talk to me about the 25 year old child and say I definitely can't talk to them

about that other parents will talk about their 11 year old child and say actually I think that you know it would work for them as a person so I think it's slowly and carefully but kids I think also know when there's something oh of course when there's something going on within their domestic environment where where it's their safety isn't it within the home i mean i i know as a child of two separated parents you know when there's something going on in the household so with these children they'll be detecting that you know mum and dad presumably no longer sleep together that there are changes so how do they as parents how do they navigate that so that they don't make their kids i suppose a bit anxious about there's something that's unspoken here I mean I would be as honest as something's going

on for us but we love you we care about you keep it about the children keep it about them because children tend to get anxious when they're worried that their safety of in terms of their parents mental emotional health if they feel like something's off, that just makes them feel worse. So keep it about the children. Keep it about, we're still here for you. We still love you. You know, and it's good for them to be able to start to navigate, I suppose, atmospheric changes.

When children and adults sense something's off, how do we deal with that? And it's something we do have to learn to deal with. Sometimes it's not as easy as you get some information and then you can kind of process that so it's about I think keeping it about the children and their safety their emotional safety I think that's fantastic advice because I think kids can become a little bit hyper vigilant can't they when they recognize that there's something going on with the house we're not entirely sure what it is so I love that advice

that is keep it about the kids we love you you know nothing's changed here for you we're still both here for you yeah it's an important thing but the volume you know there's a number of kids as well you're absolutely right within that there will be very a very sensitive child or a child that's much more sort of emotionally robust so it's about finding the messaging that sort of brings all the children together within one sort of umbrella of everything's okay things are changing a little bit for us but nothing changes in the way we feel about you and the fact we are a family that's because you were a very sensitive child weren't you very sensitive and you were very very aware and i've got to be a very sensitive adult it's not it's not mitigated by life or age

or any of those things yeah i'm my dad was very somatic. So, for example, if I hurt myself, I often fell over, you know, I was either reading something or, oh, look, there's a bird and I just trip and fall and smash my face up. And he would put his hands over his head because the idea of me being hurt was so overwhelming. But I sense as well, because the idea of me being hurt was so overwhelming. But I sense as well he felt it physically and that made him oftentimes incapable of actually doing anything. So my mum was very much the pragmatic, practical caregiver. And as he got older and I got older, I sort of parented him

and I didn't tell him things because I wanted to protect him from the pain that my suffering would cause him. Just coming back to Corin and Gareth for a second, is this a common theme, do you think, in terms of women coming to terms with their sexuality in midlife? And if so, why? I'm really curious about this because obviously it happened to me. I know plenty of other women for whom this has happened over multiple generations. So I'm just wondering why. I mean, Sam, have you got any thoughts about this? I mean, this is an interesting one.

And to Sue's point, it's this idea of now it's sort of not this thing that we're not allowed to talk about. It's still not as PC as we'd like, but it's now a bit more open. So it's that idea of it's not that this didn't exist before. We just didn't talk about it. It just wasn't allowed in a way. So now it's a bit more freeing to be able to be like, actually, maybe I want to be with a woman. Maybe I want to be with a man.

Maybe I want to be with no one. And that ability to be free, there's a sense now with younger people that that's allowed. Whereas if you think about generations ago, it just it wasn't an option. So now more women will say, actually, I don't know how I feel. I kind of thought I had to do this. This idea of there wasn't a choice. This is just how it had to be. Yeah, you're married to a guy. That's it. Yeah. I what i feel about corinne's dilemma is that there's a time bomb and i don't mean that in as negative connotation as you know i feel at the moment that couple

there's still a couple there's parents they're dealing with i suspect an abstract issue there's no third wheel nobody's actually entered there is no relationship to move into There's no third wheel. Nobody's actually entered. There is no relationship to move into. There's no other. And of course, when that does happen, and it may well, and you know, of course, if that's something that Corinne's looking for, then I very much hope it does. That immediately changes the dynamic. What, the third person? Yeah, because I think at the moment, they're able to sustain their wonderful relationship, albeit, you know, a non-sexual one. They're able to sustain that as parents. But when love comes in, when attraction comes in, when sex comes in, that is going to be an explosive situation.

A very difficult situation, I think. I mean, Corinne does say that they're both still really good friends and that she still loves Gareth. Now, it can be very difficult. I know this. Sue, you and I both know this. It can be very difficult to take what was once an intimate relationship and transition to a friendship. So, Sam, if you had a client that was in your therapy room talking about this you know a woman in midlife that's going do you know what I think maybe I'm gay I don't want to have sex with my husband anymore but I still really really love him and I think we're still friends how do you go from the intimate to just the platonic again it's really complicated but as soon as somebody else is involved that's when the boundaries tend to

become a bit clearer because I would ask the question are you able to talk to your partner about somebody that you're dating attracted to sleeping with is that okay how do you feel about that how do they feel about that most people feel deeply uncomfortable yeah in the beginning and I suppose if you're friends with someone there are no shoulds or shouldn'ts but if you're friends with someone can you speak about those things is that an area of your life that you feel comfortable with as soon as that happens in my experience that's when boundaries have been a bit more uh firmed up but I mean so you and I were together for years and years and I mean obviously we've had a few bumps along the road to actually being very very good friends but look just breathing through some of those bumps yeah but we have managed to do it yeah

we've managed to do it and actually and we can talk about partners and we can yeah you know and and that's that's not an issue how did we do it though how have we managed to get here because we didn't speak yeah for a long time yeah so I just wonder whether you have to have sat what do you think with couples where it's do you just have to have that gap I think space is important doesn't mean you don't have to speak or see each other ever but that idea of having distance to be able to kind of figure stuff out on your own to sort of think well what do I how do I actually feel which is really difficult if when we're living in the same house as someone who we've been with for a long time, that kind of time to think and breathe

and just decide who am I now in a way doesn't really exist. So it's not something that everybody has to do, but most people I've worked with said I've needed some time away, some space to recalibrate. And then I can come back. But again, it works differently for different people,

but I've not met anyone therapeutically that has been able to sort of live in the same space, be in the same life in a way and also move on. I'd agree. I think you have to sort of detonate parts of the familiar in order to grow new things, different ways of being which are born out of friendship. And also you have to forgive what's been I mean I remember uh you saying I mean I can't remember how long ago or maybe we'd gone to see somebody when things were difficult a long time ago but don't do history lessons yeah and I think once you get that space the history lessons stop and by history lessons I mean in a row you go from talking about the thing that's upsetting you in the moment to then tracking back over all the

other things in your past that have been points of information so i think our break and split and then time apart and everything has has meant that we no longer do history lessons yeah we can forgive and we can just go it's all it's all okay the forgiveness I mean you know I was thinking about this yesterday actually Sam how important is forgiveness when it comes to staying friends with your ex and being able to move into a friendship well I think it's the idea of if we hold on to resentment so if we haven't forgiven and again some people don't like that word because i'll say it sounds too kind of like they've given up in a way it's an interesting word people sort of are supposed to think about but if we're holding on to resentment it's very hard to be friends with someone how can we be friends with someone when we're we're holding on to something

so the idea of even letting go or moving through for yourself. Some people feel like forgiveness is letting someone off. Yeah, I've let them off. And now I'm a mug. You can't move on if you're holding on to that. So how do you let go of that? And I think we all know so many people for whom that's true. Yeah, isn't it? The idea that no, I'm sorry, I can't do this because dot dot dot.

I will lose face. I will. It will. And also, also, I can't forgive this because dot, dot, dot. I will lose face. I will, it will. And also, I can't forgive because then they'll be proved right or, you know, I've lost that argument. It's like you're still in that space. You're still in that, you're still in battle and there's no need for it, you know. We get it. Life gets busy.

Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45 minute tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. I think the pain that, you know, that that question throws up is one that I felt, we've all felt, you felt. But in time, once others have come in and once all that difficulty and pain has kind of moved past, all that love can be repurposed into a friendship. I really believe that. And I really believe these two will be able to

brilliantly co-parent and to hold such affection for one another in perpetuity. Absolutely. I mean, I'm just going to go back a little bit, just because I'm interested to hear it from you. But how did we get it right then, do you think? In terms of friendship? you think in terms of friendship yeah in terms of where we are now I think a period of of having no contact was very good and then I think slowly voicing the things that had been excruciatingly painful and realizing that they were never going to be solved and so let them go if you hold on to those things that made you sad that made you angry that made us intractable all we're going to do is replicate that but in a non-sexual context so i think both of us in our own way let stuff go

it helps of course that other things come in the other distractions but yeah I think that's what it was it was forgiveness and and it was wanting to get back to the fun and the lightness you know definitely so I mean that's certainly what I missed is obviously love but also the fun and I think that when you've got that with somebody when you go do you know what fuck it let's just let go of all that shit ultimately our very core is love and really good fun and we understand each other and I think that what I'm getting

from Corinne and Gareth is the same here are two people who fundamentally really get each other really love each other and maybe that's what's so difficult for Corinne at the moment with how am I going to let this go as and when I meet somebody else so there's a loss there in a way definitely and it's something that people talk about in couples therapy a lot this idea and

there are some people that choose to be in sexless relationships there are some people that choose to do that because they have such a connection with the person that they're with that the that other side in a way they decide actually I can deal with. And so it's the idea of what type of relationship do you want to be in? You get to choose as long as obviously your partner agrees. But it sounds so painful if everything else is going right. All the communication. But it's interesting, isn't it? if everything else is going right, all the communication.

But it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's not just, if the dilemma was, I love my husband, but there's another man, there's a bit of glimmer of excitement. That's a very different dilemma to, I am now dealing with the fact that I've moved from feeling bisexual to I'm a gay woman. But it is really about a question of identity. And those things can be, you know,

I remember being 20 i don't know 23 22 23 and i'd had a you know very blissful time with my boyfriend and then we split up because of you know feelings and weird stuff and and i did a show and there was a really fun brilliant woman on this show and we hung out out loads, we had loads of fun, and then I stopped sleeping, and I couldn't sleep. Why can't I sleep? And then another friend of mine on the show just went, you're in love, and I just threw up.

I just threw up because I was so divorced from what was going on. I'd come from a different time, obviously. It felt very onerous to come out, although my parents were brilliant. But I felt very scared because I didn't know anybody gay and it wasn't a very welcoming profession, wasn't very welcoming at the time. So I think it can be quite, it's a big thing.

It's quite traumatic. You know, it's not just, I'm going to hop into bed with somebody. It's like, I have to now redefine and recalibrate who I am. And that doesn't happen just going forward. It also, I think, happens, you look back on your life and missed moments, free salt. But yeah. Well, I had this, if you remember when I was living with Charles, so, you know, I'd been with him for nearly 20 years. And then, you know, clearly, there were issues towards the end but then when I met you

I had exactly that of the recalibration of oh hang on a second I've met somebody that oh okay I'm falling in love with this is this is new this is a challenge and you're absolutely she's a challenge that's what they all say um real challenge but you know and it's a challenge not just for me but clearly for him and i have to show him huge respect here because he was actually very decent to us both it's a challenge for our families and friends it's a recalibration but just bringing it back again to corinne andareth. They're separated, but living together, co-parenting for their six kids. How should they both draw up the new boundaries, do you think, Sam? Because that's tough within the same house.

It's very difficult, particularly when there are children involved, because I suppose you have to decide what your boundaries are. And often they're not the same as your ex-partners and they change. So your boundaries aren't set in stone and that's it forever. It's like, okay, let's look at what works for us now. And then that has to be up for negotiation and discussion because it will change. So once one person falls into where I'm comfortable with this boundary, invariably the other person will be like, actually, I'm not now. And that is an ongoing process. Okay, look, we've talked around this a lot um but i think it would be helpful to just too much by the sounds of it it's a lot she doesn't mess around does she thank

you susan but what should corinne's immediate next steps be do you think sam i suppose it's the idea of identity that's come up who does she think she is who does she want to be and trying to give yourself a bit of space for that which a lot of the time we don't have we're busy going to work sorting the kids out doing this it's like where is the space so just take some moments which sounds a bit woo-woo but that idea of just sitting with it for a bit and just giving yourself some space and some time and hopefully talking with friends keeping that network going so that she doesn't feel isolated I was going to say how can she help herself emotionally as well in this situation? Because I can only imagine that being in the same household as your husband and kids

where actually your identity's changed, your love is changing, that is quite scary and, you know, anxiety-making. So how can she protect herself emotionally? Definitely talking to people, finding people that she trusts to talk it through. If there's things, as she said, I't talk about yeah with my ex-partner find somebody that you can safely trust and and share that information again so because again isolation being lonely feeling alone those are the things that people always talk about I've got no one to talk this through with no one's going to understand me so that idea of feeling safe, having a network,

just one person that you can talk with, that space and time is invaluable. And presumably this is the same for Gareth. How can Gareth adjust to this new reality? I mean, what would you suggest, Sue? I think don't pretend it's not painful. I think because they love each other, it'd be very easy for them to just go,

everything's the same as normal. It isn't. It isn't. There's this quiet but incredibly potent thing that's been activated. And its effects will certainly in the short term be probably quite slowly creep into being something quite big. I think not to feel shame, actually. I know that sounds weird. I'm going to say it though i think for

some men it can be quite emasculating to think that they're not being chosen that they're being i mean some men find it a liberation actually they don't have to worry about you know sizing up to another guy it wasn't me then it wasn't me yeah and they're just the way they are yeah but you know i think possibly and again i can't speak him, but he might be sort of feeling, oh, God, was it all a lie? Was it all a lie? Did you all along? Did you did you feel like this? Was I just there to give you kids? assurance really that you know day to day we're changing but but in every moment of their marriage she has loved him and been present and she's not been hiding she's simply now got to the point of evolution i think sometimes we just don't you know because everything's so gendered women are so emotional emotional and hysterical and men are just sort of monoliths and they don't feel anything it's just such bullshit you know allow him to be sad, allow him to feel pain,

in the same way that she probably feels guilty, or she feels lots of difficult emotions at play. But Sam says just day by day, touch base, see how you feel. I always feel for people in that situation, because love is being altered, and it's nobody's fault. You know, I always come back to me and Richard,

you know, it just, it broke my heart. I haven't cried like that ever, I don't think, mean I was a baby but you're right it's nobody's fault it's just that this has shifted this has shifted Sue yeah Sam thank you for your honesty and expertise on this one and if anybody listening has some advice for Corinne and Gareth as well then please let us know the team has read every single email and listened to every voice note that you send in. And we really do value you sharing your thoughts and stories. We're all in this together. So drop us a line.

Now, as Sam knows all too well, not done with you yet, because I have a final quickfire dilemma to put to you both and you're going to recognise this one Snoops. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay this one is from Alice and it's all about how to share time and space with a partner in the evening. Hi Anna, it can't just be me who finds it hard to strike a balance between what my partner and I both want in terms of noise in the evenings. When it gets to about nine o'clock, I enjoy listening to a podcast while I faff around in the kitchen. But my partner thinks of that as wind down time, so likes to have peace and quiet. I know I could wear headphones, but that makes it feel too much like we're separated somehow. And I like being able to share things with her. We both think we have a right to do what we want in the evening. So how do we solve this? Thanks.

Yeah. So I imagine a lot of couples are going to relate to this dilemma sharing their space which i don't think you and i did fantastically well i wouldn't say i wouldn't say it was a strong point i wouldn't say cohabitation was a strong point of ours um what was my most annoying habit when we lived together how long's the podcast right anna has this weird thing that she does where she just comes into a room or even entire house and knows that something's been moved oh yeah so she gets the sense yeah the sense that something's been moved but then has to hunt through so if we went away and then an hour would be spent when we came back going something's different something's different do you know what's happened to that 14th pair of black trousers that i have hanging there it's like

why can't you just relax um i'm very messy so i would just create chaos and ann would clear it up and then i'd create chaos again tripping over her pants in the bathroom everywhere i leave them everywhere just an explosion of pants but also i'm a very creative cook so i'll go i i tonight i want a sort of Assyrian Greek fusion and I've brought all these ingredients and I'm just going to

explode them in a pan and that just about sums up what was the dilemma again I have got a thing about the dilemma I can answer that

what would you suggest to Alice and her partner about how they share time in the evening in terms of noise levels do they have the money to install either A. a soundproof booth like a Mr and Mrs,

or B, a panic room? I sort of feel there's this pressure on couples to have a whole evening together. There might be just moments in the evening where you intersect. I like to sit on my bum and watch television endlessly. But I think give yourselves a break. I think there's no law that says from 7 till 11 or whatever, you have to be kind of wedded to one another. I think do your own thing, but maybe have a thing that you come together and do,

whether it's a meal or whether it's a Stenders or whatever. What do you think? You're qualified. Yes, Sam, you... I'm just a burk. You will have heard this a lot in therapy. So give us your expertise here. I suppose, again, it's this idea that you know you come home from work and you've got to sit together all night or be together yeah and actually i would

say do you do you even want to maybe you don't maybe you just need to sit by yourself actually most people will say i just need some time for myself and by myself and that's a that's a big reality that people don't want to talk about and that's fine. You don't need to spend all this time with your partner again because it's quality versus quantity. And I would say, okay, if you're both sat watching a TV show that both of you don't actually want to watch because you'd rather be separate doing your own thing, it's better to be separate doing your own thing.

We call it in therapy connection points. You come in, you kiss them hello, that's it. You don't necessarily have to have a whole night together. So that idea of if you're squabbling about who's got their you know listening to the the radio and one person wants to watch tv that's not quality time either that just breeds agitation and irritation so I would actually say it's about how much time do you need to spend on your own how much time have you actually spent by yourself and kind of maybe I just need to be by myself and then I can be with you and so and you're right to say we are not good at saying that are we to our other half's going do you know what I just need a couple of hours

doing nothing just leave me alone for a bit I'm not ignoring you yeah I just need time with me yeah okay it feels as though there's a tension between alice and her other half isn't there about sort of ownership or you're doing something wrong or something that's irritating me rather than just owning the fact for each of them that i just need some time to myself for a bit and if that is listening to a podcast we both need to respect that in each other i think there's a pressure isn't there on well you know you don't see each other all day and so there's a sort of weird pressure that you have to therefore be very present in the evenings but you're right you do need a bit of decompression time that's what weekends are for go nuts do you know what chill

out would be my advice in the weekdays and go absolutely nuts at the weekend make sure you plan really cool things that you both like go away have some fun have some excitement have some new experiences and don't sweat this you know the small stuff that's true sometimes i want to watch a listen to a very intense podcast about the east india company that's not for everyone i understand that now and that's what therapy's done for me sam susan perkins sam pennell's and colo this is an episode that i don't think anyone's going to forget in a hurry. Thank you both so much for coming onto the podcast today and being so generous with your time and advice and also for being so personal. Appreciate that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're welcome. I mean, I'll be doing that to somebody on the bus later. You know what I'm like. I've got no boundaries, Sam. We'll work on it. In the meantime, I'll be back next week with another guest sharing their honest unfiltered i've been sacked i'm not coming back next week that's rude

what a way to find out over the coming weeks we'll be discussing the reality of caring for parents as they grow older as well as answering some more of your questions on the menopause but we can't do it without you so please get in touch. You can leave me a voice note at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. And if having this podcast beamed into your ears once a week isn't enough, remember you can watch the full video episodes on YouTube and you can also find us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me, because remember, whatever you're dealing with, I promise, it really isn't just you.

From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Nilsson. And the executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is James Norman Fyfe. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push.

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