It Can't Just Be Me - 32: Falling out with Family over Politics? With Grace Campbell

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

This week, Anna is joined by comedian, author, actor and host of the podcast 28 Dates Later, Grace Campbell to talk all about family breakdowns over politics and toxic jealousy in friendships. Anna, Grace and psychotherapist Fiona Kau discuss Grace’s experience growing up in a family where she witnessed her fair share of intense debates. Now, as an adult, Grace speaks about how she sees her feminism influencing her father's (Alastair Campbell) politics.Together, they get into a dilemma from a listener who has fallen out with a family member over differing political views, and discuss whether it’s ever possible to separate the person from their beliefs. They also tackle a dilemma from a listener who has intense feelings of jealousy towards her friend, and reflect on whether jealousy can ever be a useful emotion.   ---If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail]. With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.This podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomMusic: Kit MilsomExecutive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Poducer for Mags: Faith RussellFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. And, you can watch the full episode on Youtube. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Can we make a battery so powerful it can run the next generation of renewable energy? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that we can. Dr. Jian Liu and his team are developing safer, more powerful batteries for electric cars, solar panels and more. Building a Western Canadian supply chain to bring them to the world. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. How can a healthy debate, whether it's within a family or between friends, suddenly spiral into an irreparable relationship breakdown?

How toxic is jealousy when it comes to our friendships? These are just some of the questions that we'll be unpicking on today's show. In this episode, I'm joined by the woman who used to be referred to as Alastair Campbell's daughter, but not anymore, because she's trailblazed her own destiny as comedian, author, actor, podcaster, and proud feminist, Grace Campbell. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna.

Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain.

I really want children and he doesn't. I have feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like aopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right?

Grace Campbell, welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Look at you with your amazing specs and the bright orange scarf, the gold going on the pink, the lack of bra. The lack of bra. The lack of bra. One of my New Year's resolutions was to wear more bras. Why? Because when I was just running for the train just now, it's quite uncomfortable.

That's never going to work. Yeah. Did you have to hold your breasts? I was running, holding my boobs with both hands. I hold my breasts even when I've got a bra on. Yeah, yeah. It's not good for them to let them bounce like that. Free.

Yeah. But look, before we even start with this episode, I want to talk to you about your podcast, 28 Dates Later, which you've described as a social experiment. And actually, it has been really making me laugh when I've been listening to it. But just fill us in, for those people that haven't't heard it why have you described it as a social experiment what do you do I went on 28 first dates with 28 different people slash like some of them were two people because I went on a date with a couple and I also went on a date with two best friends who

were trying to have a threesome with me whoa hold, hold on. I've not got to those episodes yet. So you went on a date with a couple who were obviously polyamorous and looking for a third wheel. Some of the dates were good. Some of the dates were really bad. I met some really nice people and, you know, I got one really good shag or five months long shag. I was going to say, did you actually, you know, get to shag someone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When? What date? Which one? The last date, the 28th date, was a guy who was actually in an open relationship.

And then we started seeing each other and he was very, very, very good looking. So he was in an open relationship. You guys started dating each other for five months. So, I mean, you obviously don't have to sort of say why but I'm curious about well what happened I think actually it was perfect for me as a commitment phobe so I liked that that there was this like boundary that he had this girlfriend and I was never going to be his priority and it made me learn a lot about jealousy I've been very jealous basically in monogamous relationships and what was cool about this situation was it helped me realize that I wasn't someone's top priority.

It didn't mean that they didn't like me and respect me and we weren't having fun, but it was kind of nice to reset my mind a bit. I had one relationship where I was not jealous at all. And I felt so secure with this person. And I got really bored and ended it because I wasn't stimulated enough. And what I need to do is figure out how I can actually value the people who make me just feel secure rather than putting them down as boring. That is a lifelong thing. And I can completely understand what you're saying because I think given the background that you've come from as well given the kind of personality that you are you're clearly drawn to drama and excitement me too and I think that that when you meet somebody who's very very

calm and very secure and loves you then there's a danger isn't there that you then kick off and create conflict because Because otherwise, we're not used to having just a very secure, loving person. So believe you me, you'll still be having this conversation when you're 53, believe me. But just moving on, I normally kick off our It Can't Just Be Me conversation by asking our guests to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. Now, I've got a horrible feeling that you might actually have something that nobody else has got. So fill us in. What have you got for us? My It Can't Just Be Me is it can't just be me who has in the last year stopped replying to messages.

I find communication via a phone really stressful and I never used to be like that it does something to me that makes my my nervous system really activated and then I find it difficult to calm down again in my book Grace Campbell you are therefore a goddess and you get the gold star of the it can't just be me dilemmas from our guests because I'm totally with you I totally get what is the solution I'm just going me dilemmas from our guests because I'm totally with you I totally get what is the solution I'm just going to bring in our resident psychotherapist Fiona here Fiona Cowell welcome back to the show Fiona help us both because I think we both feel like this I mean I'm very different I reply to all my messages

and I've kind of learned to be strategic about it but i do agree that it can become very overwhelming and i think that also we maybe sent too many messages i mean i was kind of wondering why don't you get rid of your smartphone maybe it would help to have a work phone a personal i think that's a really good idea i really think or having a phone that's not a smartphone that I can have in certain situations. Yes, great. I mean, look, maybe we just need to be more like an old person where they just don't have a mobile phone, a smartphone. Or you have the old Nokia 310, which is just text availability.

And then people can call you. Because I think there's so much miscommunication happens via text and email. I'm constantly convinced people are angry at me happens via text and email I'm constantly convinced people are angry at me when they text me because I'm like god they're being so blunt and then I'll talk to them and everything's fine but it's just I read so much more into whereas if we were just talking on the phone I wouldn't I wouldn't think that we have way too much to read into now it's like when you break up with someone the access you have to what they're doing who they're following on Instagram you can see all of that in real time you can look at what they're doing who they're following on instagram you can see all of that in real time

you can look at what they're liking you can see you can basically stalk like exactly what we should not be able to know that so we shouldn't be stalkers no but that's really hard not to we shouldn't we shouldn't be in this world where we have the option of being able to stalk a boyfriend i feel like that's the end of the podcast it It's the messages. We shouldn't be stalkers. Okay, today we're going to be talking about conflict and division. And I'm going to start with a really tough question to you both. In 2021, a survey by Ipsos showed that eight in 10 people thought that Britain is a divided society. I know this sounds like an A-level question, right? I'll give you 30 minutes to respond. We're two years down the line now. So do you think our country has got better or worse? Silence. Well, I'm, as you know, I'm not from the UK. So I'm a bit more

exposed to what's going on in Germany, for example. And I do observe the same trend there. I think because we are currently in a crisis, in a worldwide crisis, so many crises, right? Climate change, we have wars, we have financial crisis. I think it really brings people to more extreme opinions. And it does divide people much more. And I think the political climate in Europe really reflects that of people becoming more extreme and then again social media

really feeds into that. Social media creates this kind of mini bubble where you're only always exposed to the same content and the content you agree with which is why people become more extreme and I think this kind of leads to this divide. So you think when we're threatened effectively we become more entrenched in an opinion and then we start getting involved in an echo chamber of opinions where people just agree with what we're saying and then you just become more and more entrenched. Exactly and then we're also kind of drawn to othering more. We kind of want to find the reason why is everything going wrong? Why am I like this? Why is this like this? So we then try

and find the enemy which is really dangerous that is really interesting do you does this resonate yeah and i think the other thing i completely agree and what i would add is i think that what then happens is people become so much more defensive and then it's so difficult to actually have calm conversations about these things because i i think it's good to like call people out and say, this is actually what I think. And you've made me feel this and you can either agree or not agree. But what happens is some people, maybe when they aren't processing their emotions in the healthiest way, when they do get called out, it makes them go so extremely the other way that then they become really defensive and combative. And then you feel scared of talking to them. Politics obviously runs in your blood. And I can only imagine that you've witnessed some really tasty political debates in your 29 years. But have you ever seen anything that's escalated

into an irreconcilable situation where just two people hating each other, screaming at each other, going, we are never going to agree on this. Well, yeah, well, my dad. Welcome, Alison Campbell. You've met my dad. I've said that there have been three occasions in my life where if I hadn't been there,

my dad would have knocked someone out. Really? But because I was there, he didn't do it. There was one where he got pranked by a comedian who, the day after Brexit, came up to him pretending to be this Tory person. Another one was John McDonnell in the green room at Question Time. Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were there? How old were you? Then I was like 21, 22. And what happened? They just really went at it? It got really tense during question time. And then afterwards, we went back into the green room. My dad can be quite provocative

and he also has a temper. And so I think he was being quite provocative and then John McDonnell kind of lost it. And then I remember me and Jeremy Corbyn's son had to like pull them apart. I thought you were going to say Jeremy Corbyn. I was like, wow. That would have been... But Jeremy Corbyn's son had to like pull them apart. I thought you were going to say Jeremy Corbyn. I was like, wow, that would have been...

But Jeremy Corbyn's son had to pull the adults apart. Yeah, I mean, but you know, it's like politics is so tribal. It's almost like being a football fan for a team. It's like when someone really aggravates you about like your team and if you feel really like triggered by that, you have the tendency or there is a capacity that you might lose it just out of interest did your dad and john mcdonnell actually then make it up or did they just always from that moment on just fucking hate each other no i think they i think they've definitely like had you know positive conversations since then i think that again the

thing about politics is you have like massive arguments about something but then you a lot of you my dad's not an mp nor has he ever been but like a lot of MPs they still have to work together they're working in the same building that's what everyone's forgetting like they're seeing each other most days like they're eating in the same canteen in a way it's kind of I suppose it's like being in the workplace isn't it where you can massively disagree with somebody but you've got to get along with somebody and then you're in like you say in the canteen you're. Anyway, we have received a dilemma from a listener who had a conversation over Christmas. I mean, you so know where this is going, about politics with a family member that spiralled completely out of control. So she's chosen to remain anonymous, but these

are her words that she's speaking. anna i've fallen out with some of my family members this christmas over political views what started out as a heated debate has escalated and now i'm not speaking to my mum's partner because of it every time i look at him i think that he's got some really outdated and extreme views which i think could be a bit racist i can't get out of my head that my mum defended him i know that he loves my mum and if i don't make up with him my relationship with her will suffer. How do I separate his political views and move past this? I mean, you know, this is just classic, isn't it? Fiona, why do we get so angry when someone we love has a different political view from us? I think it is because we would like to assume that people close to us have

similar views. It's just more comfortable. It is difficult, uncomfortable to think, oh, they really think very differently. Is it a tribal thing? It's kind of like you're a member of my family. How could you possibly think this about X, Y, Z? Yeah, I think so. Okay. Grace, is it possible, do you think, to separate the person from the politics? And this kind of harks back to what we were just saying about your dad and John McDonnell. Is it possible to still really like somebody or love somebody that has radically different views from your own?

tough one isn't it I mean I think my thing is like are these people willing to carry on talking about it once something becomes like a no-go topic of conversation then I would find it difficult to want to have like a continuing relationship with them because I'm like okay well we can't talk about these things because clearly you aren't willing to like have a conversation where you take some form of accountability or like read something or like watch something that I think might like help you understand something in a different way. It's also so generational what we're talking about. This happens so much with like our generation and our parents' generations because a lot of them like grew up with very different opinions being taught to them. Should we take somebody's age into account when

trying to understand their politics? Or ultimately, do you think that's too much of an excuse? I think we need to take into account how the person grew up, the generation, the environment. I think, you know, it doesn't really help to only stop at, oh, I hate your opinions. If we really want to start a conversation, it's actually about showing that curiosity and say, oh, I hate your opinions. If we really want to start a conversation, it's actually about showing that curiosity and say, oh, okay, what makes you say that? Or what makes you think that? And then you can actually explore and gain a better understanding of what's going on there. Absolutely. I just want to sort of poke at that a little bit more, because I know loads of people that don't think you can separate the person from their politics.

I want to think that you can, that you can still like somebody or love somebody that's got radically different views from your own. But it's hard, isn't it? I think it so depends on what it is. But I think when you realise that someone is morally, has extremely different views to you and you question their morals, I would find it difficult to like be in a relationship with them or go on holiday with them or whatever it is. It makes me not trust you as a person. If you think some of the things that you're saying, it makes me question your character. It really depends. Like I would be able to be friends with someone who voted Brexit if they'd reflected on their decision and were willing to talk about that. But could you still be friends with them if they said, no, I made absolutely the right decision?

Well, if they did, they're an idiot. Then it's like, what are you looking at? Wake up. Exactly. Fiona, what do you think? Can you separate the person from their politics? Do you still like somebody and love somebody knowing that actually their opinions are just, you know, for us, vile? Yeah, I think it's really difficult. I think, again, I think there is politics and politics, right? There's like really extreme views. And if it touches, again, your core values and what you really believe, if we're talking racism, if we're talking sexism,

then it becomes much more difficult if it's a little bit about I don't know economy a certain direction of politics that doesn't really bring out these polarized positions I think it makes it much easier I agree with that so much and I think that that's where there are two types of politics because there are some things that are just like a kind of a line and then there are other things where I think we should have much more conversations about these things. Like I love talking to people about their different opinions on the economy because I'm like, I don't know anything. Like teach me what other people think and what other people think should be happening

to the economy and democracy. And I think on those things, it's really interesting to talk to people that you disagree with and may have different opinions. But it's just there are some things that for me, I'd be like, if you think that, that means that you are someone that categorically I would not want to spend much time with. So a few years ago, I can remember being in a club in central London with a big group of friends. And amongst that group of friends was a Tory MP. Wow. And which already it's like, oh, okay, we wasn't expecting that.

I found him really entertaining. His views are abhorrent, but I found him utterly charming and entertaining. And I became so conflicted over this man's great company, but his politics to me are abhorrent. So there is that rub of, oh, I like this person. But also we should be like, especially as a writer, I want to expose myself to like so many different types of characters because it makes me think about like different people that I could create. You have talked before about how your mum and dad, for example, disagreed on the Iraq war and that there would be, you know, spicy arguments going on back at home about being pro or anti.

How difficult was that for you as a child, as a daughter, actually, to witness having two very strong parents with differing political views well I was really way too young to understand what it was I was like under 10 so I didn't really understand I just was like my parents are arguing all the time um but I think that's a kind of good example of that although you know I'm so on my mum's side and actually I think my dad deep down also is but it's a very complicated he has this complicated relationship with it but I think that that's a good example of like in relationships when you have such strong differing opinions they manage to get through it you've said before that you're not particularly keen on the idea of agreeing to disagree when it comes to politics so I mean that's a sort of nice way isn't it of saying to somebody look let's just agree to disagree on this we're never going to see eye to eye so how do you approach conversations that you

know are going to be divisive well I quite like debates I like some form of tension in my life so so I don't run away from conflict if I'm having an argument with someone I would never stop it and say let's just agree to disagree because I'd be like let's try and get to the end of this and see if we can reach some form of a conclusion do you mean get to the end of this so I can change your mind yeah and I would I would I find it difficult not to stop until I feel like I have and obviously that doesn't always happen and and then the one thing I have had to learn is in these situations it is so important that you do control your temper because once one person or both people do like lose their temper, and it becomes two kind of like high emotions, you stop actually

having that reasonable debate. And then it becomes so much more based on like how you're feeling in that moment. That's true, isn't it, Fiona, that once you reach that level of emotion, then you know, this just becomes an emotional red fog. I think even in this dilemma, you know, I think there's much more going on than just the political debate. I think it's much more about the emotions. It's about how does it make the person feel that her mom is dating someone who has such opponent views. Absolutely. such opponent views. Absolutely. So let's bring it back to our listener then that Fiona, you're saying there's a lot more going on here, potentially, than just differing political

views. This is something to do with the fact that, oh my God, my mother who I love is dating this man who's got these abhorrent views in her opinion. So what is the one piece of advice that you would give to our listener? I think it's to think about what is most important piece of advice that you would give to our listener? I think it's to think about what is most important to me here. Is it the relationship to my mom? Is it family peace? Or is it that the person she's seeing has to have the same views as me? And I could imagine the most important thing is the relationship to the mom.

So think about how, okay, how can we move past this? And then maybe they should speak about what went on during Christmas and kind of at least state how they all felt in that situation and hear each other out and maybe do not go back to the politics, but talk about what was going on emotionally for each of the people involved. people involved and I mean ultimately do you think it's possible and I'm looking at you Grace is it possible to have your mind changed because you're saying I will keep on going until hopefully I could try and persuade that person to come to my way of thinking I've changed my dad's opinions about quite a lot of things like my dad did not really have any understanding of feminism before I started talking to him about it. And he always has these like clapbacks. But I think when he was in government, if I'd have been there in his ear,

I'd have been able to tell him more things that he could have been doing to help get minorities more of a platform in politics, which is still unbelievably like slow and behind. Me and my dad have had quite a lot of like sort of conflicts over the years about politics I'm from a different generation but I'm really opinionated and he sometimes tries to say that I don't actually know enough for what for the opinions that I'm saying which is how does that make you well sometimes he's right and sometimes he's not right and I have to decide when he is right and when he isn't right and if I think he's

right then I go away and I learn more about it and then I come back and then we can talk about it more and now I like listen to his podcast I'm like god he says things I'm like you didn't even know what that meant before I like taught you what it meant and yeah or like call people out for like things that they say and I'm like hang on dad I fucking told you yeah and and that I'm really proud of that and I think that he was willing to listen and I was willing to keep like going at it and I think in this situation with this dilemma if someone has no desire to listen learn or like have a conversation then I think you shouldn't be wasting your energy if it's going to keep making you feel bad and keep making you feel uncomfortable

in situations if there is some space for either or both of you to learn then great but do you think there's a danger then grace that people are going to think exactly the same thing about you as a strong independent very opinionated young woman yeah maybe they do and maybe that's okay and maybe we will have an interesting debate conversation about it or maybe we won't it will maybe we will have an interesting debate, conversation about it, or maybe we won't. Maybe we'll just hit a wall really early. And also, I think what's lovely about being an opinionated woman and having a disagreement with somebody is that I'd far rather be that person than be quiet. Agree. Yeah. I'm never going to be the girlfriend that you just will take anywhere and not have to say, by the way, she is quite a lot.

I will never not be that person. I'll always be someone that people will take somewhere and say, you're probably not going to like this person, this person, this person, but like go forth and speak to them however you want to. I'm just always that I'm just always been kind of fiery and argumentative. But how much of that has been influenced in particular by your father being so because you said he's very opinionated and he's got a temper. My dad is the same. And I think that's probably why I've become a gobshite. So is it the same with you? Yeah, I think so.

I think I've had to learn. I don't want to be someone that loses my temper is the distinction. I obviously have in my life, but I'm really working on it and have really worked on it to be someone that doesn't actually ever have to resort to shouting. I like to have these conversations life but I've really I'm really working on it and have really worked on it to be someone that doesn't actually ever have to resort to shouting I would like to have these conversations but like calmly and without losing my nerve but it definitely definitely is so influenced by my dad so what would your one piece of advice be for our listener well I would in this situation it's what you were saying Fiona as well but like I would prioritize your relationship with your mom and I would talk to your mom separately about how you're feeling about this again hopefully it can

be a calm conversation where you can get across the fact that you feel that maybe she hasn't quite had your back and that she more had his back in that situation how that made you feel because if I was in that situation that would make me feel really bad so I would I would try and communicate that and then if you feel like your mom's partner is someone who you could have some kinds of conversations with or even like a text I know I've got I'm doing a hypocrite now because I hate texting but even if you wanted to send them something and say this might be an interesting thing for you to read or I just listened to this podcast it doesn't have to be completely like ramming it down your

throat but something that might be able to sort of like make them think about it in a different way to shift the dial a little bit and open up the conversation because then you can talk about that thing rather like the thing you've sent them rather than like the argument there's actually also the family and group dynamics going on here because you said you know she the mom wasn't defending our listener she was defending her partner and that's probably because the mom was perceiving the partner as the outsider of the family whereas the entire family was against him so again we don't only have all the emotions that are getting mixed in but we also have the group dynamics exactly this is where families are just so fascinating aren't they in terms of those dynamics. However, I just want to move on to a

slightly different topic, which is still relevant in a way to what we're talking about with our first dilemma, but it's about jealousy and how it can divide friendships, particularly between women. And we've had a listener who's called in with this dilemma. Hi, Anna. Surely it can't just be me who's experiencing intense feelings of jealousy, and I'm completely ashamed to admit it. So one of my best friends recently got a promotion at her work, told me that she's buying a house with her partner and generally just seems to be smashing things. And I'm so far away from any of that. I feel pretty low with where I'm at, particularly with

it being January and the dread of another year ahead where I'm not where I want to be. My career is going okay but it's not really taken off and I'm dating but that doesn't really seem to be going anywhere. Everything is kind of average and I feel quite embarrassed by it. It's like life is just passing me by. I'm a woman in my early 30s and I know this sounds dramatic but sometimes it feels like it's just too late to do anything about it and I'm just kind of stuck where I am. Now I'm feeling pretty resentful towards my friend and I'm ignoring her messages so I find it hard to be happy for her and I worry that I might end up upsetting her if she shares any more good news with me. I just feel

like a horrible person and an awful friend and desperately don't want to feel this way. Can you help? I mean, doesn't everyone feel like this at the moment? Or is that? I think it's just I think these feelings are part of the human existence. I've had so many periods in my life where I felt really unhealthily jealous of other people. And I've had to have so many conversations with myself of this isn't about that person. It's much more about how I'm feeling about myself right now. And, you know, we unfortunately live in a world now where we're comparing ourselves constantly to people that we know,

people that we don't know. The internet makes you, you know, I saw this video yesterday by this amazing American, like, podcaster and comedian. And she said, I think my algorithm is built on making me feel like I'm not where I was supposed to be in my life. Every time she goes on Instagram or TikTok, she just sees stuff that's like people buying houses, people getting promotions, people having babies, people getting married. Life's amazing. And it makes you definitely question where you're at.

But I hate the fact that she feels ashamed of that. That's the part that upsets me because I actually think this is so normal. Well, let's pick up on that because you write in your book, Amazing Disgrace, that you realise supporting women, supporting women, is more rewarding than competing with them. So just expand on that a little bit more. What did you mean by that? So we are taught

in every way in romantic relationships in our careers in like our looks that there is a kind of scarcity mindset right so it's something I learned last year or not learn I've always known this but something I really started acting on is that I should never let a man make me hate another woman so say if I break up with a man and they start going out with a different girl I should never look at that person and hate them because of what this man has done yeah that's what the patriarchy wants you to do they want you to hate that woman because then it will mean that you're wasting your time and energy hating a woman rather than you know picking him up on his yeah exactly and that happens in work you know so you feel like if someone gets

a job that you want you're jealous because you're like I'm now never going to get that job because you're made to feel like that's the only job out there that you could have and it's the same with our looks and how we're made to feel like we should look a certain way and like I said I think jealousy is part of the human existence it's how you deal with that and process it and then hopefully you don't let it manifest into your behavior on that person and don't make actually them feel bad unless they're being a cunt. And then you should make them feel bad. But so it's about like processing it properly and sort of understanding why you feel those things and what you can do, I guess, to change how you see yourself. So you will stop feeling really jealous of someone else but look comparison is toxic but it's natural

Grace do you still secretly find yourself comparing yourself to other women or just other people not I've done so much work on myself with this yeah because I don't like feeling uncontrollably jealous because it feels like a really negative emotion and then it feels like it makes me feel quite shit. I'll definitely have moments where I know if I went on social media right now in the mood that I'm in in this moment,

I will see something and I will fixate on that for the rest of the day as a reason to make myself feel bad about myself. So I will not something and I will fixate on that for the rest of the day as a reason to make myself feel bad about myself. So I will not go online. And I can tell now when I'm in a place where I could be vulnerable to feelings of jealousy. I think there are healthy forms of looking at someone and thinking, oh, I kind of want that. But then if you want that, you can think about sort of what you can be doing to try and get that. What this girl is describing I so

understand I'm about to turn 30 so many of my friends we're all having this similar feeling of either people are having babies and like buying houses or some of us are so extremely single and we're thinking about like what we want and what we and then once you decide what you want you can really think about what you can do to change, I guess, how you're going about finding that. If she's finding dating is not really leading to anywhere, maybe she's not looking in the right places. Maybe she's not dating the right kinds of people that are looking for something long term and serious. And, you know, maybe she's sort of attracting people who are just like looking for, I don't know, something short term and fuck boys, basically. And so I think you have to be kind of harsh on yourself about what that is that you may be doing wrong and how you can change it but social media is making

this worse right surely because I mean I find it quite toxic and I end up you know exactly as you're saying scrolling going oh fuck I fucking hate you hate you hate you hate you and then I feel really bad about it and go I actually really like you and I really wish I had your life. So I'm just really, really jealous and envious. But do you hear this a lot in your therapy rooms, Fiona? Surely people talking about comparison, I'm just not where I should be, whatever should be is in life. Yeah, definitely. And especially women in their early 30s. I get this so much that do feel that they're not living this narrative.

And this is what I want to call out. Who is saying this is where we should be, how we should be? I think it's this narrative that has been fed to women and that's totally outdated. Life for women has changed. We go and get our education done. We contribute to the household as well we take much longer to reach that level in our careers and we do not need to find our worth in becoming mothers anymore I think but are you still hearing this from women in their 50s by any chance as well that they experience that pressure yes um do you want another client because I feel always I feel that right now and it's not just women in their 30s I mean Grace I feel the same which is kind of like oh well like you know I now should be living in a

big house I should be driving this car I should have kids I should all the the shoulds are really really unhealthy and also I what I would say to this person is I'm sure there are things that her friend envies about her life. People in serious relationships are always partly a bit envious of their friends who are single. The grass is always greener. It's so cliche, but it is true. What I find the most amount of comfort in is that I know that when the things that I want happen, they'll happen at the right time. And I'll know then that there was a reason why they didn't happen at that point when I wanted them to happen yeah and we all have loads of things that we want but then we all have loads of things that we're really lucky to have and it's just about trying

to like remain positive in that and not see your life as a failure because a you're so young like she's in her early 30s like we you have so much you need to figure out in your 30s I can't believe I'm turning 30 I've still got so much I need to figure out before I turn 30 but in the grand scheme of things you have so much time and probably your friend will get divorced in her mid-40s statistically more than more than likely yeah so let's just pick up on the shame that this listener is feeling about her jealousy now Grace, Grace, you've built a brand on shunning feelings of shame and reveling in disgrace, which I love. How do you do it? Well, I think that was the part that made me the most sad listening to that is that she feels

ashamed of these feelings because shame is a completely useless emotion. It stops you from like moving past whatever it is that you're feeling because you're too scared of saying it out loud. So my best advice in regards to shame is to talk about it, is to vocalise it. Once it comes out of your mouth, it feels so much less like a feeling that you are isolating yourself with. And then, you know, you start to feel a bit lighter and then you start to realise how much other people feel the same way as you. Well, on that note then, can jealousy ever be a useful emotion? Absolutely. I think all emotions are useful because they teach us what is important to us. Jealousy kind of tells you that, ooh, I actually deep down feel that this is what I want

or this is, again, where I should be. And I think we should all eliminate the word should from our vocabulary you shouldn't do anything just try and be in the present moment I know it's really really hard but if we kind of always just try and live to a potential we actually forget to live so girls what one piece of advice would you leave for our listener who is feeling so jealous at the moment and uncomfortably jealous of her feelings about her I would probably talk to my friend about how I'm feeling because if it is one of my best friends and they are someone I can trust with these emotions I would say because I wouldn't want to risk the relationship friendship's so important as you get older so I would probably

say I have been feeling this way and it's so so not your fault, because it isn't. But I want to be completely transparent about this so that then we can talk about it. And maybe you can make me feel better. Because I actually think when you're isolated in a friendship about these kinds of feelings, it again makes you feel so much worse. So that is probably what I would say. But I know that is a really difficult conversation to have. And if they are a good friend, they will then help you through what you're feeling and what you're going through. And then they'll help you kind of find resolutions. Or if they don't deal with it well, then maybe they're not someone that you should be really close to and depend on. What would you say, Fiona, as a psychotherapist?

Yeah, I would try and see the signs. So the jealousy is telling her something. And maybe she can think about what she would like to do about it. So either take a proactive stance and kind of say, ooh, this really shows me, I don't know, I want to work towards a promotion or I want to meet someone and then become more proactive to actually create opportunities to make it happen. Or the other way could also be,

oh, I noticed that I become jealous too easily. How can I learn to let go of that? How can I actually accept myself for where I am and see that everyone has an individual journey? We only see what we see from other people is the tip of the iceberg. I see the other side in therapy. I see through this kind of facade. And believe me, everyone has insecurities. Everyone has doubts. We all have them. It's human. Grace, Fiona, thank you both for coming into the studio

today. And you know what, for being so open and so honest with your opinions. We really do appreciate that on this show. I like to sort of scratch below the surface and you've been very generous in giving it. So thank you. And of course, thank you for listening and for continuing to trust us with your dilemmas. I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, please send us your voice notes via itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. And if you want to see more of the show, remember you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me.

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