It Can't Just Be Me - 33: Grief and Guilt? With Vogue Williams

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Anna is joined this week by Irish icon, Vogue Williams – one of the few people who could bring a touch of humour to the difficult subject of grief. Vogue reflects on her own experience of navigating grief, after losing her dad, Freddie, in 2010. She recounts the guilt she felt following his passing, and – with the power of perspective gained after 14 years – considers her reaction in the early days of grief. With the assistance of psychotherapist Fiona Kau, Vogue and Anna respond to a dilemma from a listener who is looking for advice on how to support her partner to move through the process of grieving his mother. And they also talk through a dilemma about grief and intimacy. If you’re struggling with grief, help is available. You can call Cruse, the bereavement support group, on 0808 808 167. Mind also has information about where to find support following a bereavement, including links to specialised services and guidance on peer-support networks. —Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags Creative Producers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit Milsom Executive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith Russell Follow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on Youtube.   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A quick warning before we start this episode, we do touch on suicide. So please listen with care. This month, I watched Dan Levy's Netflix film, Good Grief. And the one thing that really shone through was just how painful and messy and just out of control grief can really be. And it's something that personally fascinates and terrifies me at the same time. So wouldn't it be lovely if we could just do grief, make it a kind of rite of passage, a happy thing, tick it off and get on with living life? Well, if only it were that simple. Today, I'm joined by presenter and fellow podcaster Vogue Williams,

who has very raw experience of how we, in life, face death and all the complexities that go with mourning somebody. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna.

Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way.

If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Vogue Williams, welcome. Hello, Anna. Thank you for having me. Hello, welcome to College of... Your voice is so nice. will you do one of those

stories on cam so i can listen to you when i go to bed i feel like i should i i bore myself when i talk it was so nice and soothing that's what that's i i you're tricking me into something here i am it's all just totally lulling you into a false sense of security well fortunately uh we do have a trusted psychotherapist along with us in the studio today. So we are going to be mining your soul today. How are you feeling? I'm really excited for that. I hope it's deeper than I think it is. It will be. It will be. Now, regular listeners will know that I start each episode by asking my guests to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. And as a woman who's presented the Taboo Talks podcast,

I'm kind of nervous about what yours is going to be. What have you got? It's so pathetic. I'm sorry. It Can't Just Be Me, that brings tea bags away with her. What tea bags are we talking about? Barry's tea. Oh, so it's a specific tea. It's a specific tea, but I like to have my Barry's decaf at night and I have my normal Barry's during the day. And maybe it's an Irish thing.

We are obsessed with tea. Are you? Even though you call it English breakfast tea, it's Irish breakfast tea. Okay? So are you guys obsessed with tea? We love tea in Ireland. Tea, tea, tea. I thought you just loved alcohol.

We love that too. But Tea, tea, tea. I thought you just loved alcohol. We love that too. But no, we love tea. Like my auntie was telling me, she's like, I must have 12, 13 cups of tea a day. And I was like, Tina, I don't think that's healthy. But I'd have a lot of tea a day. I could sit there and drink it like water. I just, I love it.

I used to make three cups of tea in a row and I'd have three cups of tea in front of me because when I got one of the really large mugs, like a huge pint mug, it got cold too quickly. Why don't you just have like a thermos of tea? This is the thing. It depends on the teabag. It depends on how the tea is made and it depends on the cup. So I do, I haven't brought a mug away with me only because my husband will slag me about it, but I would like to bring one of my mugs with me god does this sound so dull that I'm talking about tea this is an interesting thing so thankfully thankfully for both our sakes we have Fiona Cow our psychotherapist on hand

Fiona are you already making notes about the pair of us oh yeah of course I've been analysing since I walked into the store I know I have to say she has been staring at you there, Vogue, clearly making notes about the whole madness of Barry's team. I'd hate to know what you think about me. Let's do Anna. We'll find out after the show. Now, look, today we are delving into the darker and the sadder, harder side of life, because we're going to be talking about death,

which is still such a taboo topic. But actually, Vogue, you know, we were chatting beforehand, you and I have a slight fascination about this. And it's something that's been playing on your mind recently. So what's going on? I don't, you know, I can't understand how people don't have a fascination about it. My husband, Spencer, is is just like he is so carefree about death he's like oh well just get on like what do you mean oh well how can you be oh well about I'm so I went through a phase and I actually had to go and speak to a therapist about it because it got so intense really but I couldn't stop thinking about death to the point where like I was having sleepless nights I was trying to like think of something else before I was going to bed and. I was trying to like think of something else

before I was going to bed. And like I'd walk by older people in the street and I'd be like, oh God, they must be terrified. And Svenny was like, they're not. Like they're not talking and thinking about it. I was like, how could they not be? He's at least 80. He's on the way out.

But I think they must. I mean, I'm already terrified about the whole thing. I'm only 53 and I'm doing the whole death mask thing. We've counted. If 40 years left, we've counted. Yeah, we did, didn't we, earlier on? I have 50, so I'm sorry about that, but you've only got 40. God, we need 40 more healthy years. But I don't understand how people don't worry about death.

So, Fiona, why are we so uneasy when it comes to talking about death and grief? I think it's cultural. I think that we've kind of created, you know, this taboo topic around death. And I was actually thinking about this, you know, how in the English language, there's a lot of euphemisms around someone has passed. And I thought, in German, we don't have it that much. So that really showed me kind of the cultural impact. That kind of makes sense though

because the Nepalese people have a really nice way of thinking about death. Like they genuinely believe that you're just passing on to the next life. In Ireland, like if you're invited

to a funeral, I am telling you, snap that invite up. You are going to have the best time of your life. Really? Yeah. In Ireland, we have the best funerals. I'm telling you. Because to have the best time of your life oh really yeah in Ireland we have the best funerals I'm telling you because you have the whole wake don't you

isn't the coffin open oh sometimes I hate that or when someone's like would you like to come and see them it's like and you can't say no because it's kind of rude so you might have to go in my sister actually went she went this guy in our area died and she went to his wake and she went in and she was queuing up to pay respects to the body and she got up there and she was like he looks desperate he looks nothing like himself

it turned out she'd gone into the wrong room in the funeral it wasn't who she thought it was so actually I was like oh my god Amber don't tell them that but uh but we're kind of in Ireland you're dead and buried and like like my dad died on a Friday morning at like six in the morning or something and he was buried on Sunday you're quick in and out like you guys like to hang around I don't know what you do in Germany you guys really drag it out

actually that's the point because you were saying earlier on, Fiona, that we don't have the euphemisms for dying in German. Is it just that they're dead? I mean, we don't have that many. I think in English you really have a lot. And I was thinking, how would I actually talk about someone dying? And I would just say, oh, my friend's father has died.

Whereas in English, that's quite crude. It feels quite sort of blunt and on the nose, but it's factually correct. Exactly, so that's quite crude, right? You wouldn't... It feels quite sort of blunt and on the nose, but it's factually correct. Exactly. So that's very German, right? Yeah, it's very, very German. But I mean, I share a fascination with you about death. My dad's a priest.

So we were brought up in the vicarage right next to the church. So part of our garden was on the old graveyard. So me and my brothers used to, when we were playing in the garden and sort of our garden was on the old graveyard so me and my brothers used to when we were like playing in the garden and sort of like digging things up we'd dig up human bodies from like the medieval times obviously not like fresh bodies but like we'd be like dad we've got another skull and my dad had a whole bag of like bones in the garage that he then had to at night go and kind of like re-bury and re-consecrate. Oh, God. So I think that I've always been kind of like around it and quite interested in terms of where do people go?

That actually reminds me of when I was younger. I remember our next door neighbour's granddad died and myself and my other neighbour, he was my friend. We must have been like six or something at the time. I remember calling to the house and being like, can we see the body? When you were six? Yeah, I remember. And did you see the body? No, of course they wouldn't let us go in and see the body.

Hello? I mean, you Irish, you never know. But you wanted to see the body? Oh, yeah, we wanted to see the body. So how many dead bodies have you seen? Oh, God. How many would I... I'd say it'd be under 10.

I avoid it if I can. I don't think it's great to be... Because no one ever looks like themselves. Some people might, but I don't think they look like they're asleep. They're not, no. No, they definitely look dead. Yeah, they really look dead.

I remember when my dad died, my sister and I had a good few drinks and we were like, we can't leave one another. We'll stay in here. We'll stay in here. And then at about three in the morning, we woke up and we were like, oh my God, get out of here. There's a party in here. So tell us more about Freddie, because I think sometimes that when we talk about grief, we get so lost in the raw emotion of it that we forget to celebrate the person that was with us. So tell us about your dad, Freddie, because he passed in 2010. Is that right?

Yes, he did. He was 68. He was young. Yeah, he was young. But like he was always unwell because he smoked a lot. Smoked, drank. I remember he was in hospital for, he'd had two heart attacks in two days and he was hanging out the window smoking. And it was like,

he's never going to stop smoking. In his life, he had triple bypass. He had two heart attacks in two days. He had a stroke and he was always getting stents put in because he was a heavy smoker. He likes to put butter on his chips and that's just, he lived really fast, but he loved life. He would have loved like meeting my kids and he would have been over, he lived really fast, but he loved life. He would have loved like meeting my kids and he would have been over, he probably would have moved to London with me. Like we were really, really good friends, but he died. Yeah. When he was 68. What actually happened to him? Towards the end, what happened was he, he basically had an aneurysm in his stomach and he was told about the aneurysm and there was a high chance

that it would just burst on its own and then he would die what I was told is he would die a terrible death and it would be very painful and he'd probably be on his own because he lived on his own or they could try and do an operation so I think he was very worried about it so I think he probably would have rathered waited out but we were just like listen there's a chance here you're going to be totally fine and you won't have to worry it'll be gone you'll have loads more time and so he went to not the operation he woke up from the operation but when he came to and I was talking to him I was like he's saying weird stuff to me like he wouldn't ever say to me and I kept saying it to the nurses they're like no no he's fine and then it turned out he'd had a stroke on his brain and

then they they put him into an induced coma and then he never came out of it. Oh God, Vogue. I mean, that is, how old were you? Probably 24 at the time, I think. That's really traumatic. Do you know what? It was traumatic, but at the same time, because he had been sick my whole life, like I had been going in and out of hospital to him all the time. It was expected in a way, but it was traumatic when you're that young and you're kind of going through it but like I had my sister at the time and we like we're very close and then my auntie who looked after the whole thing she organized this amazing funeral and like we didn't have to look after anything we were just kind of there yeah getting pissed getting pissed and just

trying to process what's what's going on but I understand it, you felt a lot of guilt. Is that right? I felt guilt for like for a good few years after. Did you? Well, because I actually didn't know that my auntie was trying to convince him to do it as well. So I thought I was convincing him to go for the operation. When then I was like, God, he could have had the summer and he loved the summer. And I kind of felt like I had pushed him into it. So if I hadn't, then he mightn't have died. And now that like I reflect on it and it's been how long it's been,

it's, I have to count it, it's 14 years. God, that's a long time. Yeah. It's funny though, you remember them like they're, I can hear his voice. It's weird. Yeah. But you reflect on it and then you're like,

listen, I kind of feel like it's written down for everyone when you're going to go. I'm going to go and I'm 350. You're still looking fabulous, darling. If the face falls, I'd rather go. Exactly. So tell me about those early stages of grief and particularly with somebody so close to you. What was it like? I think with somebody that close to you, you're kind of engulfed in like sadness from everywhere and you just feel like this is just the pits. It's the worst. And when that had happened, my whole life just flipped because I was like, right, I want to get out of here. I don't want to be around this. I broke my boyfriend of like six years, six and a half years. And I met somebody else quite quickly and I moved out of the country, which I don't want to be around this. I broke my boyfriend of like six years, six and a half years. And I met somebody else quite quickly. I moved out of the country, which I don't think I would

ever have done had that whole turmoil not happened in my life. I would never have left the country because of my dad. So I was, I was kind of stationed there because my dad was always kind of like, he wasn't sick, sick all the time, but there was always a chance that he was going to get sick. So I kind of stationed myself at home and then he died and I was like, see you later, losers. I'm not sticking around for this because I just didn't like, too much was reminding me of him and I just wanted to take myself away. Not even knowingly, it's only now when I look back, I'm like, God, I actually just wanted to remove myself. Just run away. Is that very common, Fiona, for people when they're grieving,

that they just blow their lives up and just you know make some radical change i think what's always really important with grief is that it's so individual you can't it's really difficult to generalize you can't really say this is what all people do however there can be some tendency kind of like either taking the grief head on or trying to to remove yourself or needing a change of scenery. And I think it's expect the unexpected with someone who's grieving. You just don't know how you're going to feel. Yeah.

Does our age and the manner in which somebody has died affect our experience of grief? Yes, it does. Oh, it does. Yes. I think if it's a sudden and unexpected death, that often makes the grieving process really difficult. If it is a suicide, that's, again, very, very difficult. And I think, you know, if a person is kind of ill, and it takes time, and then the family can prepare, and you can actually speak about death, and you can say your goodbyes, then very often that can help in the grieving process. goodbyes then very often that can help in the grieving process. That's interesting actually isn't it you're right about the the process and the process of saying I love you to somebody and I'm grateful that you're in my and having your goodbye makes it easier and I guess how often do we get to do that in a way? It's not it's not often but when you do I've read books where people are

like they're they're diagnosed with terminal illnesses and the way that they like, I think it's somebody having to come to terms with their own death. It would be just like horrific. Yeah, that's I mean, how would you do it? We can't conceive of it, can we? And I mean, from a brain point of view, Fiona, is is that a human thing that our brains just can't really conceive of our own demise? Is it a survival thing? I don't think it's a survival thing. So in existential therapy or existential philosophy,

we actually say that death is what gives meaning to our lives. Because otherwise, if we wouldn't die, we would live endlessly, right? And this would give our lives a whole different meaning. And I think, for example, Vogue, your interest in death as well, it's kind of this one uncertainty that we all know will happen so that's the certainty but we don't know when and we don't know how and that's extremely scary and I think this is why so many people block it entirely out because they can't deal with the anxiety with the death anxiety I feel incredibly anxious about it i really really worry

yeah about it do you want to know what existential therapy says about this yes so it's all about kind of accepting that this will happen and then you live much better with it yes but i still want to know that i'm going to die a really nice death and when i'm really old with loads of love and no pain you can do it with ai i did it there no pain. You can do it with AI. I did it there the other day. You can do it with AI? Supposedly, yeah. What, you can get... I'm going to be 102.

Don't be jealous. Well, Jail. But of course, there's the whole existential thing of what happens beyond. Do you believe there's a beyond or do you not believe that, Fiona? No, I don't believe there's a beyond. Well, you can't because you've got a scientific mind.

I kind of believe that we exist on in a different form and I think we kind of keep existing in the memory of people. I definitely think that we live on I think that spirits reconnect. I don't think it's nice to think of anything other than that and I just think that you're everyone is so different everyone has their own mind everyone Everyone is just their own being. It feels like there is a soul within you and that you will go somewhere else. And I just think it's too depressing to think otherwise. I mean, you're quite right to say that we've all seen a dead body. And we can't really associate that body with that person because the soul's gone. The energy's gone.

I watched my dad die and I'm telling you the difference like as soon it's it's like it's obviously it's because like all your muscles and everything will go will go limp and stuff like that as soon as you die but like I felt like you could almost see like the change straight away like seconds you can see the spirit leave yeah you can't like you're not gonna it. Like I didn't see my dad like floating above me saying goodbye. But you can kind of like the difference in the body at the time of death is like. That energy's gone. Yeah. You can feel the energy is gone. Do you ever feel your dad around you? I don't. You don't? No. Yeah. It's not that I don't feel him around me, but I think that like when you think of them, he might just pop into my head for no reason.

But like it's amazing that when you go through grief at the start, you're just like you're so upset. And like you're just everything that you think about them is just makes you feel sad. And like I still do get sad where like I could be doing something and I'm like, oh, God, he would have loved to have been doing this. But like most of the time something pops into your head and you're like, wasn't that nice that we all did that together? Like, or funny stories that I think about him. And so you do have that as time goes on. Unfortunately, time is what helps.

And I guess, I guess, as you said, Fiona, that actually people live on in the memory. Yeah. Okay. So we are going to take a quick break, but we'll be back straight afterwards to share a couple of listener dilemmas. See you in a memory. Okay, so we are going to take a quick break, but we'll be back straight afterwards to share a couple of listener dilemmas. See you in a minute. This episode of It Can't Just Be Me is supported in part by The Better Menopause. Now, you know we've talked about the menopause before on this show, and we've got more episodes coming up. It's a topic that I'm fascinated by simply because I'm going through it. So I'm

interested in the Better Menopause and the work they're doing around nutrition and gut health. Their first product is the Better Gut and it's a probiotic designed specifically for women in midlife struggling with common symptoms of the menopause. We're talking IBS, bloating, anxiety, brain fog, low energy, you name name it all of those things that you tell me about when you get in touch with me on the show and actually a lot of the things that I'm going through as well there's more information available on their website but to put it simply transform your gut transform your menopause try the Better Gut today to support you through a better menopause. Visit www.thebettermenopause.com to find out more about the science and order your supplements today.

They deliver straight to your door and the supplements come in portable packaging to help fit into any busy lifestyle. You can also sign up to their newsletter and join their thriving community. Right now, you can receive 15% off your first order with the special code Anna, all one word. That's www.thebettermenopause.com and code Anna. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. I'm here with Vogue Williams and psychotherapist Fiona Cao, and it's time for your dilemmas. Our first one is from somebody currently supporting their partner through the loss of their parent. This person has asked to remain anonymous, but this is her voice. Hi, Anna. I wanted to talk about my partner's mum, who sadly has recently died.

He's struggling with a lot of guilt about her passing, which sadly wasn't very dignified and was very painful. And he's constantly wondering if there was more that he could have done for her in her last few days. I have the power of perspective and know that he actually did so much for her in her last few days. I have the power of perspective and know that he actually did so much for her and she definitely knew that she was loved. But he seems to be in this loop of guilt. He shuts down when I try to talk to him about it, which makes things very difficult and he becomes very distant. And it is affecting our relationship relationship so I just wondered if you had any advice as to how I can help him um move through the grief I mean that is it's just so sad isn't it that's just so awful to hear that and I mean there's two things going on here the idea of

having to witness somebody's demise when it's been painful and undignified is awful. So that is horrific to hear. And I guess then the other aspect of this is how do you help someone move through the stages of their grief? So Fiona, are there different stages to grief? And is guilt very much a part of that? So you've probably heard of the five stages of grief. There's kind of this common concept that a lot of people use. And the five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I actually don't find it that helpful because, as I said before, grieving is such an individual process.

And it really depends on how did the person die who died what was their relationship and where is the person who's experiencing the grief in that in their lives so I don't think you can generalize at all guilt's not in there then yeah that's interesting yeah but a lot of people feel it so why I mean again I think it's very individual but what I kind of wonder for this listener is that because death is so uncontrollable and actually seeing someone being ill and you feel so helpless and so out of control. So I wonder whether for this listener's husband, actually kind of going back to what could I have done differently? What could I have done here?

Is giving him a sense of control? What could I have controlled? And this is actually really unhelpful, I think, in the process. But it can also be a way of distracting himself from accepting the death and distracting himself from having to grieve. And also there's, and you'll know this, Vogue, as well, that existential thing of a parent dying. This is his mother. I think with that, though, when a parent dies, I say it because my auntie said it to me recently. She's like, well, I'm next on the chopping block. My parents are gone.

I'm next in line. And you kind of think of your own demise, I suppose. You do start thinking about that, I think, the older you get. And as you say, when you start to lose your parents, you realise that, yeah, I'm next on the production line. Yeah, there's no one above me. So, Vogue, when it comes to lose your parents, you realise that, yeah, I'm next on the production line. There's no one above me. So Vogue, when it comes to helping a loved one through their grief, can you relate to this at all?

I feel like when I heard that dilemma, like it reminded me a little bit of how I felt. And to be honest with you, no matter what anyone would have said to me, I wouldn't have really taken it on board. It wouldn't have changed my mind about the way that I feel. So as annoying as it is, it's just that's a process he's going to have to go through and he's going to, it's going to take time before his mind will be able to settle from feeling so guilty about it to actually start rationally thinking about it, because he's probably not thinking rationally at the moment because he's too upset. Well, I was just going to say to you, actually, what did you find helpful and what did you find unhelpful when you were grieving?

Maybe it's because I was younger, but I kind of just ran from it for a long time. And it was only after about, I'd say about a year, that then I'd start talking about it when I had a couple of drinks, but I wouldn't talk about it besides that. I kind of wanted to just lock it away

and not have to talk about it with people. And I think back then, that's how I kind of dealt with it. And I feel like I did talk about it a lot and my friends would listen to it, but I mostly just wanted to not think about it. Have you had to support Spencer as well with the loss of his brother or with grief in his life? I think with Spencer and his brother, his grieving was so different because he was so young. When that happened to his brother, Michael, he summered at Everest and then was lost on the way back down. He was nine or 10 at the time. So he just like his parents told him and he was like, okay, cool. When's Mike coming back? It was just kind of like, when's he going to be home?

So he just assumed that he was going to be home. And I think even his grieving process probably only really happened when he did the documentary that he did going to be home. And I think even his grieving process probably only really happened when he did the documentary that he did about his brother. And it was only when he did that and kind of retraced the steps that he kind of like went through all that as an adult. I think for him, it wasn't even about being upset.

It was just kind of like a realization to him. And he was like, God, that was like, this is what he did. And it was nice for him to go and do that and feel connected to his brother because he hadn't seen his brother since he was like, God, that was like, this is what he did. And it was nice for him to go and do that and feel connected to his brother because he hadn't seen his brother since he was 10. I just felt really happy that he was kind of going through it because I think it is an important thing to actually go through. You can't ignore it forever because it's always going to creep back up.

So going back to the listener then and this loop of grief that this listener's partner is feeling, Fiona, is there any way to help somebody out of that cycle when they're in it? Or is it just that you've just got to let them go through the process? of he's going to do it at his own pace. He's going to need to do what he needs to do. And this can be really difficult in a relationship when you think, I know all the things that you need to do. Now I know what you need. And then holding back because as you said, Vogue, you can't hear it really

as the person going through this process. You don't want the solutions. You want someone to be there with you. But then it can affect relationships though can't it really can yeah so what do you say to that person that's trying to support and actually it's just i know it's affecting the relationship i kind of think it like i don't want this to sound mean in any kind of way but like i've had like a friend who went through a breakup which is obviously very different to somebody dying but like after four months being on the phone nonstop and this turning into a conversation

about that the whole time and, and like everything being about that, I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't actually, I've gotten to the point now where I can't listen anymore. And I can't help you. I can't help you. You have to like push yourself through it. I think it's kind of the same with grief. It will get to a point where you just have to have to say, listen, we need to figure out a way to move through this because actually it's really affecting me now, not just you. This is now affecting, it's affecting me, it's affecting you and it's affecting our relationship. And unless we move through it, like this is going to be a big problem. So in this situation, Fiona, what would

you be saying to this couple? Because what we're hearing here is a man who's grieving and he has shut down and he will not talk to his partner about it. What would you say to them if they were in your therapy room? Well, I think, you know, everyone is entitled to their own emotions and their own experiences. And everyone in this relationship is entitled to have their space. So I think it's important, you know, when your partner is grieving, to give them time and to give them space to what is okay for you, what is acceptable for you. But if it starts impacting the relationship too much, or it goes on for too long, then I think as the other person, you are entitled to say, this is now affecting me, or I'm finding it really difficult that you are suffering so much? And can we talk about what you can do?

And I think, for example, for the husband of this listener, maybe he needs to think about support that he can get. And maybe it's not within the relationship, but it could be a grief group, could be journaling, it could be therapy. Okay. Finally, then, what one piece of advice would you give to our listener in terms of supporting her partner, Vogue? I would say I'd sit down and have a really open, honest chat. It's not what you're going to want to do because it's a very difficult thing to do because obviously they're grieving and you don't want to feel like you're being unempathetic or nasty. But at the end of the day, they will appreciate it and just be like, right, let's sit down. How can we figure this out? Because actually this is now affecting us,

it's affecting me and we need to figure out a way through this. Like, I don't want you to feel like this anymore and I don't want it to affect us either. So let's figure this out together. And we're a couple, we're a team. Let's do it as a team in a sense. Yeah, I think so. What would you say, Fiona, as a therapist? I think that's a really good approach. I think so. What would you say, Fiona, as a therapist? I think that's a really good approach. I think there's a little bit of a danger maybe of the partner shutting down. So I think it could be always a good perspective to talk about her experience. Say, I am feeling

really hopeless or helpless, or this is affecting me in this and this way. What can both of us do to work through this and to address this? Okay. We have also had another dilemma that's come in that focuses on how grief can impact intimacy. So this person has voiced their dilemma, but has also asked to remain anonymous. Hey, Anna, I wonder if you could help me and it's a bit of a sensitive one. Ever since I lost a family member unexpectedly last year, I haven't felt like sex, and the thought of it makes me cringe. It's like that part of me has shut down. My wife has been patient with me, but passion used to be a big part of our relationship

and a way that we really connected, and I think she started to get frustrated. We were thinking about trying for another baby, and that is now on hold because I'm so closed off. I seem to be okay in other areas of my life. Will I ever get back to how I used to be? This is a really interesting one. So we know that obviously the mind and the body are just intrinsically linked. What do you think is going on here, Fiona? So I think because libido is something that we can't really control, right? We can't switch it on and off like we want. And this listener is reporting that everything else is going well. So I wonder whether in every other part of his life, he kind of has control. He can kind of pull himself

together. But then when it comes to something like our sexuality, that we can't switch on and switch off. This is actually where we're getting a sign of not everything is all right. I see. So he's managing in every other area. But the one area that is, in inverted commas, failing him because he can't control it is libido. Yeah. So you're saying that's a signal to him that not everything is okay here. You're grieving. And this is how it's coming out. Yeah, I think for most people, unless you're asexual, of course, a healthy mind is that you have a healthy libido. People have passion.

People have sexual desires. So if your libido is off, it is a sign that something is off. I kind of have two feelings on that. First of all, because he was saying that he lost someone last year. I'm not saying that there's a time limit on grief, but I feel like people who are going through bouts of depression sometimes like I went out with a guy and he was going through a really bad bout of depression did not

want to have sex and I think that that can really affect your libido so maybe it's like he doesn't even realize that like actually the grief has made him feel depressed and and maybe that's why his libido isn't isn't what it used to be but also doesn't it change all the time like yeah i mean it does change all the time but it feels as though these two are linked doesn't it the grief and the lack of wanting to have sex maybe you just don't want that intimacy of somebody touching you and having to i don't know that's a tough one I think the way that he's describing it, and he's saying that he's noticed this since the person dying, right? So it definitely sounds interlinked. I think we always need to consider other things as well. I mean, they're trying for a baby. Losing someone confronts you with

your mortality. And I also think, you know, so dying is an existential experience, but having a child, giving birth to a child is also a very existential experience, which also confronts us kind of with life and death. And maybe when as a parent, when you start thinking about your own mortality, it's like, do I want to put a child through that? Now we're going very far into hypotheses, of course, I don't want to put anything into this listener's mouth but I think what we are hearing here is that as I said if you don't have a libido you need to go and explore what this is about yeah I like that hypothesis though that maybe there is that anxiety of I've just lost somebody that I dearly dearly love yeah and now I'm about to create life

new life and actually do I want to do that? Because then ultimately that child is going to experience the same awful grief that I am, I think is interesting. But there's also the stress and pressure when you're like trying for a baby. It's not exactly sexy times. But I thought about this. And so when, usually when men experience that pressure, it will be more about performing and not about limiter. Uh-huh. Okay, so he doesn't even want it. So what can he do then?

I think they need to talk. He and his partner need to talk. Before it gets too late, because it does get to a point where it's like, oh God, it's too embarrassing now. What do you mean? I feel like if you leave it too long, if a situation like that is going on. Yeah, if you don't have sex or you don't talk about it being a problem for too long, it gets to a point where you're just like, God, this has just gotten really awkward now.

Yeah, we can't do it anymore. Yeah. So I think maybe this listener needs to also explore his own libido with himself first. Maybe that can be a bit easier. Oh, masturbation. Yeah. Just to see whether he feels like I've still got the desire. Look at.

Yeah. That is interesting because that's, for our listener, we don't know that, do we? masturbation just to see whether he feels like like i've still got the desire look at yeah that is interesting because that's for our listener we don't know that do we we don't know whether he is still masturbating he's still got the desire or whether it's just that he doesn't have sex with with his partner yeah so you know what is going on with the libido here that's a very very good point and then as a couple i would think about okay what can we actually do what what did we used to enjoy i think they should kind of also work on their intimacy. Very often, you know, not being intimate sexually together also has signs about something in the relationship.

Maybe they need to go on dates. Maybe they need to reignite a bit their passion. Maybe they need to do some fun things in the bedroom as well that they enjoy. Away from your other child. Maybe you're spending too much time with the child. Could be that. And Vogue, you became a parent after losing your parent. How did that impact your experience of becoming a mother?

Did you have that sort of thing of, oh my God, I'm a mother now, a parent now? That's when I would feel sorry for my dad. When I would think, God, he would have loved Theodore. He would have loved Gigi. I loved Otto. I would think about that quite a lot, to be honest. Like when we're doing things together or when we're away on holidays, he could have been here. So that comes into it a lot because he was really good with kids. And like we spent a lot of time when we were kids, he was always

taking us to do fun things. So I just think that like he missed out and my kids also missed out. Yeah. And do you worry about when you and Spencer pass on? Does it worry you about your children? That's my main concern. And that's what I kind of figured out from my severe fear of death. I think it's for me, the fear of death is actually leaving my kids behind. It's not it's not me dying, particularly. I just want to make sure that they're going to be happy, that they're going to have nice lives, that I'll be able to set them up. And I think when you get to a point when you're older and you realise that you have done that for them and you've done a good job for them, they can kind of fly the nest that you'll feel better about it. And it's just like you've left them with like, you don't have to

worry so much about them anymore. Well, finally, what one piece of advice would you give to our listener with this dilemma when it comes to reconnecting in an intimate way? I would say like as awkward as it is, you have to sit and have a conversation. And if you drink alcohol, I would suggest possibly a glass of wine. You just have to sit and talk before it gets too awkward and just figure it out together. Fiona, what would you say? I would actually say go and do it. Go and have sex. Oh, really?

Yeah. Try and do it, yeah. Because you sort of forget, don't you? Make a date night, get a babysitter, you know. You're not always in the mood. And then, you know, when you do it, you're like, actually, that was great. I know, you know, and I know I'm a therapist, but sometimes you don't need to talk. Yeah, just do.

Do you know, this is what I love about this podcast is we're basically saying to our, to our listener that you, yes, you are grieving, but you know what? Just go and have sex. Just do it. Just do it. And that goes for everybody listening as well. Just go and have sex. Just do it. Just do it. And that goes for everybody listening as well. Just go and have sex. Vogue, this has been such a personal conversation for you.

So thank you from all of us on the show for being so open and so honest as I know that you are. We really do appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you. And Fiona Cow, of course, thank you for your expertise, as always, and for coming back into the studio. We love you for that as well.

We'll also leave resources for anyone currently navigating grief in the show notes. In the meantime, I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me, but we can't do this without you. So please get in touch. You can send us your voice notes via itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. And don't forget, you can also find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me, because whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Milson.

The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is Faith Russell. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.